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From: portworks
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  • valves are supposed to rotate as they work. some engines even have rocker offsets to make the valve rotate as it is actuated. you cant stop it anyway, unless you had a square valve.

  • 1:31 "It's Alive, ALIIIIIIIIIVE!"

  • for all trouble : new4stroke

  • Just imaging all that wear on every revolution mile after mile, its amazing the valves and all even last 10,000 miles on an engine.

  • Its like porn.

  • The down fall to a pushrod engine the springs have to be strong to shove the rocker arm up and push rod and the lifter then the springs are so stiff the valve has to be heavy and beats the crap out of the seats. Go dohc

  • Why not use shorter valve stems and dual springs?

  • this is normal speed, the frame rate of the camera is too slow to show the valves actual movement.

  • @JasonMann8 normal speed with a strobe light cycling just slightly less or more than the rpm of the engine. eg: 8000 rpm engine with a 7999 or 8001 flash per minute strobe. Very cool effect

  • Is this video realtime with the audio laid over it? is the frame rate matching the rate of the valve? or is this 10k+ FPS?

  • valve floating is that left right movement of the valve?

  • The valves, springs, and retainers are not suppose to rotate in an engine like this. When they do its a sign of valvetrain instability. High end race engines such as this (no this is not the engine from the civic) are rebuilt frequently, they never have a chance for carbon buildup and such. Some production vehicle engines use rotator type retainers that do rotate the valve,but not the spring, in operation to aviod hot spots, carbon buildup, ect.

  • @mopar340360 lifters rotate, pushrods rotate, valves are round so they can rotate, hence the procedure of lapping them in, the only force able to rotate the valve is of course the spring, so it must rotate or lose contact with the valve at some point, it they were meant to not rotate they could easily be designed in a fixed position, and they are not for that reason, the wobble and the bounce are the problems in this video, correct me if im wrong plz!!!!

  • @curtknows101 watch the video again start to finish , note what the text is saying in relation to what is being shown in the video (severe rotation ,ect.) these are all examples of valvetrain control problems. I know this because I work for a high end engine builder, and see this kind of thing every week. They mention valve rotation as a bad thing, because its never suppose to occur in this type of engine. The wobble and flex you're seeing are symtoms exacerbated by valve float.

  • @mopar340360 Thankyou, i watched it several times and yea that cant be good, i can almost imagine the wear on the spring seats, hey while i got your attention, i notice your sign inas mopar 340360, check out my channel and you will see why that caught my attention, for a street 318 , 340 cam 444. max rpm 5500, your recommendation for a valve spring would be???? 1977, stock heads, 600 cfm, 74 Dart, 3.55 on 25 inch tires, dont know the weight of the car, 3000 lbs app. Thankyou, curtknows101

  • so it's actually moving very fast?

  • @Bakeneko64 Yes.

  • omg im watching one scary ass amature horror film

  • The spring spins because the diameter changes; it gets larger when you compress a spring. Go grab a spring, compressor, and calipers and test it yourself. So changing the spring's diameter 4,000 times per minute will definitely cause a spring to rotate; creating the need for hardened seats and avoiding titanium retainers for high endurance.

  • the spring is good. nothing is wrong. you are trying to steal my money. >:(

    LOL,

    just kidding.

  • The Valve itself should spin. As FLSHBK1 stated it prevents carbon buildup on the valve and the valve seat. That prevents hotspots. hotspots cause ping.

    What they are showing in the video is valve float. If you watch closely you will see the valve spring itself bounce, and spin. The Spring should not spin, or bounce. When the spring bounces, the valve itself bounces in the combustion chamber. This will cause that valve to fail, not to mention hurt the engines performance.

  • I couldn't really see any valve float, the spring always looked connected to the rocker to me?

  • @roflex2 you obviously didnt watch it past 3 minutes 17 seconds if you couldnt see it before then

  • That's crazy, because I thought engines were good at 6000 but the assembly was spinning around at those revs. That's really strange to me, is that terrible for the engine or normal for it to spin like that?

  • @D13fledermause well get this ... on a VW flat-4 air cooled type I motor , the rocker arms are purposely off set when pushing them , to make the valves spin for even wear ... seriously ! . so I'm like you I dont see whats wrong with a valve rotating on its axes as long as its open ? ? ? but hey I dont know anything about V-8 valve trains ... anybody ? ? tell us please .

    Cheer's from Arizona , usa .

  • thats how fast i hump

  • @dickcheese663 i feel bad for your girl lol jk

  • @dickcheese663 Your pillow!!!!!

  • Your retarded....it looks like the valve is floating because the frames of the video equipment are catching up with the strobe light and valve movement when filming...take a timing light and point it at your fan...get the rpm's of your engine just right and it looks like the fan is not moving...ya go ahead and stick your fckn finger it.....post that video for me...

  • @SoundFactors Dude your an idiot, that sob is still spinning and i got thirteen stitches now to prove it!!!!! thanks a whole bunch you moron:-D

  • I am a valvetrain engineer and I see no evidence of float. Poor dynamic for sure. The spring bouncing and wobbling like that is surge and is common to all springs at high speed. The valve bounce on the other hand is very bad - not only for making power but for durability of the valve seat - it means the valve is seating at far too high a speed and/or in an uncontrolled manner. Much of that has to do with the cam design as it does with the spring load. Also the valve is supposed to rotate

  • @mikeknauf Yes you are correct, they are supposed to rotate, thankyou, otherwise it would be designed square lol

  • Boing boing boing boing lol

  • have you tried tubular valve stems? 1.2 mm in diameter holes?

  • Im not arguing it. But wanted to know how valve spring rotation can be a good thing?

    And what is valve bounce exactly? Whwn the valve isnt quick enough to return to its position or whwn it wobbles? Or...?

    Thanks.

  • @gravey07 The top rated comment by FLSHBK1 answers your questions. The valve bounce/float is caused by springs that aren't up to the task so they wobble and allow the valve to unseat. This was a much bigger problem in the past than it is now that we have a better understanding of valve profiles(computers) as well as better metallurgy. Though there's always a trade off. The stronger springs to reduce bounce also cause greater valvetrain stress and power loss. Desmo valves are another alternative.

  • valve rotation is a good efect and some diesel companies put ball bearings under the spring in order to do just that!they usually do that on exhaust valves!

  • How did I get here from a Portal 2 video...?

    Oh, wait...

  • @FranxNeto Ahahaha valve. I went from some tf2 video to something about breast implants, lol

  • It's interesting how some folks love American muscle cars but when you watch Top Gear, the hosts and their fans do nothing but rip on those cars. For me, it's all interesting and it's all good for selective purposes. For cruising on a Saturday night, I'd prefer a Lambo or Zonda, but that's just me.

  • don't watch this video if you have epilepsy... lol.

  • @battlefield2maniac Now you fkn tell me ...

  • @battlefield2maniac kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk­kkkkkkkkkkkkk

  • You just can't beat American muscle, i live in the uk where we have crappy little cars with underpowered engines, i would just love a 60's/70's muscle car with a blown big block v8, you just cant beat them.

    V8 all the way !!!

  • @02uawitt DERP!

  • @02uawitt thats whats up man, i gotta hand it to european cars tho man, they have style....and plenty of power as well

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  • Comment removed

  • Is this video being played in slow motion and then real-time towards the end, or is it real-time all the way through? I just found a bent pushrod in my motor, so I'm just trying to get some perspective on how this all works.

  • @novaracer1963 at the end the valve seems to go faster but in fact it goes almost the same speed. It's just because the strobe-light is not timed perfectly with the rpm... you can see the same thing with a timing light and a fan.

  • @novaracer1963 If no one has answered you yet what you're seeing is an optical illusion similar to the rotation of a hellicopter blade at speed or the spokes of a wheel at speed. Because your brain can only process a certain amout of data from your eyes, you actually see glimpses of the object as it rotates. Watch some spoked wheels on the road. At certain speeds they can appear to be still or travel backwards. See at 1:20 when the engine slows the perspective changes. Hope this helps

  • and valve springs bounce. that doesn't mean they're floating.

  • valves are supposed to rotate to distribute heat.

  • holy fuck, gabe newell must watch this.

  • COOL!

  • Congratulations on an excellent video.

  • was there coil bind in that? doint know just wondering.

  • i got here bcaus i type valve the game company valve that makes l4d l4d2 and hlf2 tf2 then this happen.

  • @gam3zrolf same

  • sweet vid

  • When we studied AutoMech in the 1960s, we were taught that the valves were EXPECTED to rotate during their operation, and their followers were designed to create this desired feature. Rotating prevented hotspots or build-up of foreign objects on the valve seats. I still don't see rotation as a 'bad' thing. The valve stem wobble, however, is not something I would want, since it would cause the valve to leak around the seat.

    Thnx for posting this very interesting vid.

  • @FLSHBK1 The valves are supposed to rotate ok, one of the spring holders contain a "roto-cap" and causes the valve to rotate slightly each time it is pushed. A friend of mine once had a Ford V6 that sounded like it had a bad valve lash on one valve. Removed the valve covers and found that one of the valves didnt rotate. Gave it a squirt of 5-56 and knocked it with a hammer(yes it was running), and the sound disappeared.

  • @FLSHBK1 youre correct on the rotating. stem wobble is almost unavoidable though, due to the geometry of the valve train. the rockers technically move in an arc, which is where guide wear comes from

  • @circlethewagons1 Absolutely correct! The arc isn't much, but it serves to wear the guides over time. I would love to find a hi-spd-slo-mo video of a desmodromic valve system running this high (8200 rpm) for comparison. For some reason, I didn't get the audio with this video the other times I viewed it. The narration adds a lot to undrstndng what we're seeing. I've always attributed engine "flat spots" to carb or ignition issues, but they can be caused by valve bounce or float @ intermediate RPM

  • Comment removed

  • @FLSHBK1 I think the problem with valve float is that the valve doesn't make good contact with the valve seat and so not only causes a loss in engine power but the valve does not cool properly and the valve "burns" causing permanent power loss and valve cooling problems.

  • @1971SuperLead Oh, I absolutely agree. Further, in some hi-compression engines, if the valve doesn't close fully or quickly enough, there's a real danger of it 'kissing' the piston. I've also had two engines which flashed-back thru the carb at high rpm, caused by weak intake springs ~ ignition occurred while the intake valve was not fully closed.

    I would enjoy watching a comparison of this engine with a desmodromic valve train, such as they had on the old Mercedes Benz 300 SLs and Ducati bikes.

  • @FLSHBK1 The rotation isn't bad, the jackhammer effect is... It's basically pounding on the valve seat.

    Excellent video!

  • @FLSHBK1 Yeah the valves ARE supposed to rotate, but not the springs also.

  • talk about a painful sound : (

  • so correct me if im wrong cause i no nothing about how your able to watch the valve. but from what it looks like, your using some sort of strob in timing with the valve so you can take almost still shots of it to see the placment and unwanted rotation of the valve spring. its really amazing that the quick flashes trick your mind into seeing it almost still when really its moving 7000 times a min.

  • @299special You just described a video camera. lol

  • @TacoChino haha did i really? i didnt know how video cameras worked

  • @299special lol! Yah! :P How DO you get one in such a small space, though?

  • @299special yeah it is correct,strobe lights was used for super slow motion before the invention of high fps cameras

  • bitchin shit dude, great video

  • Great video, love the shot of the valve! In addition to spring pressure, cam profile plays a large part to minimize valve bounce too. Nice job!

  • Is it going so fast that I cant see it? I dont understand..

  • @Kirbynessness stroboscope...

  • You want good stuff by isky period never had a problem.

  • High 8000RPM or even 9000RPM for this valve spring can creat sagging and valves guide start to wear also,lots of valves manufacture should sell staineless steel valves guide for lesser wear,on any vehicles with high RMP...we already have stainless steel valves with black coating

  • Comp Cams is known for their dynamically unstable lobe profiles and the need for much higher valve spring pressures, especially when compared to the more dynamically stable grinds from Isky and UD. Not surprising to see Comp Cams show up in a valve float video....

  • dude !!! this is totally awesome video very nice!!!

  • very cool video of the valvetrain at high rpms

  • so do you want valve rotation or no?

  • Comment removed

  • what kind of rocker are that for civic i never seen that before?

  • Are these...Int/Exh valves hollowed within the stem core? Valve guides, are new right? The secret to having less of a rotation to the spring is easy. can anyone guess what that is? Hint; High heat, high rpm, spring...........?

  • @sprydo7 spring retainer??

  • @sprydo7 huhh?

  • why is the spring in rotation?

  • @machusi1989 because if it didnt rotate the valve would never seal

  • @Feralspirit15

    false.. the valve is round, the seat is round, the valve guide is perfectly centered, when you lap the valve to the head, you basically, mate the surfaces. on a roller rocker engine you dont need valve rotation to maintain a valve seal. only full closure of the valves themselves. it is actually detrimental to guide wear, because it leeds to wobble as seen

  • damn its like watching a horror movie

  • How is this filmed? Its awesome!

  • I think I might want to consider upgrading my valve springs and cams after seeing this O.O I redline my Subaru pretty much every day I drive it, and I have no idea if the stock valve springs would like it...

  • Wow!!! I want to watch this video whilst on acid!!!!!!

  • @MalliganTheUFO haha whilst. Awesome word!

  • @thooke222 lol, Im not going to argue with you there!!! But why do you figure its so awesome????

  • @MalliganTheUFO I guess I just don't hear it very often, and in the context of an acid trip it just struck me as funny

  • @thooke222 I can see your point

  • whoever is working the gas pedal has a highly tuned right foot! :)

  • The valves are sopose to rotate. We had to replace valve springs, valves and keepers on a chrysler recall because they failed to rotate and this caused carbon cake up on the valve bevels causing a rough idle and miss fire. so don't get why you showed that last part as if it were a problem.

  • @MrGizmo757 because some engines do have valves that are desinged to rotate, but most dont because of the desing of the valve seats

  • @mushere2k9 the rotate to keep the carbon off. preventing burn valves. and in a high performance engine that is exactly what you want. any power house engine that doesn't do that will have valve trouble unless of course you run alcohol.

  • @MrGizmo757 yes thats what i mean, but i know for a fact the spring isnt supposed to spin.......that means the sping isnt keeping proper pressure

  • Moving sooo fast that it looks like it is going slow....AMAZING...

  • it's ok! just put some lapping compound in the fuel!!! lol

  • this isn't slowed down is it? I guess it's like you would the timing

  • What did you do to correct the side to side valve movement, I know how important the spring pressure is but did you tighten up the stem clearance? Was this an actual running engine or electric motor driven?

  • wtf? is the camera too slow for it or is the engine really running that slow? whats the buzzing sound?

  • @chillincruisin

    herpa derp

  • @chillincruisin

    OR you're a troll or you're a noob in engine's , anyway the valve moves so fast it can't be recorded by the camere , it what you see is like wen you're watching a tire of a car thats running fast , you see it run backwards/moving slowly , the sound you hear is the actual speed the valve is going up and down cheers

  • @combomaster99 ok, i get it, i didnt see any changes like how a wheel looks like its going backwards, the spring just compressed and decompressed at the same rate.

  • @chillincruisin

    don't worry dude , beeing alittle behind in physics is not so bad, you will have you're own things that you're good at:)

  • No Boom?! @1:20 to 1, is it 8200 or 3200?

  • @AdMiRaLeDpIeTt 8200^^

  • @BruceCarbon oh man that's a heart attacking, cardiac arresting and ROFL RPM! That resulted to a Coronary Artery Disease!

  • @AdMiRaLeDpIeTt some engines are reving higher than 8000 rpm like Honda S2000 with it's vtec ;-)

  • i think i just vomited colors

  • Fun with strobe lights ! :)

  • It looks like one of those avant garde experimental movies :P

  • que mierda de video

  • i dont understand how they got that second shot, and was it the intake, or the exaugst valve on the second pard?

  • @chargerfish1 id say it wouldnt be on a complete engine, dont see any detonation happening. very intersting to see the valve rotating though.

  • @nipaaa hahahahaahahaha..... man!!! you made me laugh out loud....

  • that is really interesting i didn't know it floated that much makes me want to replace the valve springs in my engine i know that is what is happing my engine looses power at about 4000 rpms but hay it got a lot of miles

  • honeycomb springs would help

  • bestale quanto sballotta la molla :S

  • the speed at the cam is the half of the crank

    and when the intake valve works the exhaust doesn't

    so it's not so high rpm that 8000 for the valves

  • uhhh.. wow, gonna go buy valve springs now and do some head work.

  • sounds like skunk2 at the ending part because there so advance with their head works

  • Extremly good Video!!! I've never seen suh a dynamic process before and it helps me to understand what happens in the motor.

  • OMG, my eyes were going funny. this vid needs an seizure warning, cool though

  • Thats it..........the scariest thing ive ever seen

  • cant imagine that this spring does it 160 times a second

  • wow this is psychedelic dude! lol

  • @Michaeljsnow yea that is trippy

  • ROFL. it's like the ring.

  • @snowman4839 i was thinking the samething

  • If there is anyone around the Tampa Florida area that would like to "play" with one, gimme a shout.

    I am about 90 miles north of Tampa and use these strobes on my racecars and whatnot lol....

  • Is this video taken with a strobe? Or a very fast fps vid camera, or both?

    The comment that said it would be difficult to set up a strobe for this isn't true. The strobes that I have used for this kind of stuff are really pretty simple. They have a dial and a digital readout on them. So you just have to jack around with the dial to get it "on".

    We use them all the time at my job.

    Thanks for sharing!!

  • timing the strobe light meter to the rpm had to be difficult.

  • @mikem75 How do you think they adjust timing belts? A computer is used with a strobe light hooked to it and the computer is hooked up to the engine to calculate the engine's RPM. Then uses this RPM and tells the strobe light what frequency to flash with.

  • that is some high tech testing, i wish i had this technology in my garage

  • EPILEPTICS BEWARE!!!

  • That was kind of trippy.

  • geez, are you trying to give me a seizure?

  • Craig 1981 you are a retard who knows nothing about engines. Coil bind damages valve springs and you should NEVER have it. Moron.

  • Damn.  Awesome video. With all that flexing, i was kinda hoping for the valve to fatigue and drop into the cylinder.

  • looks like you have some spring bind going on too.

  • @565Customz Your supposed to have coil bind, thats what stops the valve from going too far into the cylinder and kissing the piston.

  • @craigg1981 thats the most retarded thing ive ever heard....since you obviously know nothing about engines, what happens if the coil binds before the cam gets to max lift??? i'll leave you to think about that for a while and give you the opportunity to correct your statement.

  • 1:35 gave me a seizure. 1:40 made it worse.

  • wtf is happening this video is horrible

  • @klx134sm this video is horrible?, lets see u make a better one

  • @rubberbandman03 maybe I will asshole

  • this causes way to much oil consumption and really not necessary.

  • Who filed this ??

  • Not true. Check out Coates engines.

  • Roll on pnuematic or solenoid actuated valves !! Or , better still , rotary valves !!

  • rotary valves sucks.

    there is not tight seal as on a regular valve.

    solenoid actuated is not done yet.

  • the idea of rotary valves is a great one! while the seal does suck, it can be made to work, and the RPMs would be amazing, as are desmodesic valves

  • Excellent video guys. Just a quick question.... was the head/valvetrain designed to spin the valve between stokes? Or is it just a by-product of high RPM/weak springs?

    Just curious.

  • good call, it's a design feature in some engines

  • just the capability to make a video like this says alot. very informative! maybe i will have you guys build my engine while in iraq..=)

  • get a rotary engine, less worries

  • no torque...........granted you can run them high and not worry... then again with any amount of money you can make a big block rev at 9,000

  • Not really. You're trading valve springs for apex seals.

    Personally, I'd rather have the springs. Easier to replace than apex seals.

  • @kriegdouch your a fool. rotaries have a lot more that can go wrong. its just easier to fix them if you know how to fix rotaries.

  • yet less moving parts

  • i second that! lol. "oil premix + worrying about apex seals"