Jehovah's Witnesses, an Atheist, and a Christian (Part 2 of 2)

[vincedeporter]

It is so sad how they choke at any reasonable explanation. I was on that side of the door for over 40 years... then I woke up. Now, I'm an atheist. Happy also.

[niggagangstanigga]

Im insecure with every faucet of my existance

[dejaxmagoria]

Also, the girl who kept laughing.. when she said she was openly wondering about why God would have created the tree in the first place, I was surprised. Like another poster had commented, I could predict everything she had to say --- the fact that she went "off the cuff" was surprising, because to me it showed she actually was interested in the things you discussed, and I hope that she took to heart all the irrationality that was brought up.

[dejaxmagoria]

I was raised Jehovah's Witness as well. I'm currently 21 so all of my experiences as a youth growing up in this religion are still very fresh. I really like that you weren't condescending towards them and genuinely tried to come to a conclusion about the texts examined. The thing that made the biggest impression on me as a kid when going door to door and talking with people was when the people we talked to had something logical and rational to say and also spoke without attacking or accusing.

[skinnydog131]

lol that was entertaining! I'm jealous, i want my turn with them :)

[RedzIlluminate]

Ever since JW came knocking to my house, my life was hell. I turned violent against anyone. I wasn't able to control what I do at all. Everything good in me changed to bad. I don't know why. After JW weren't allowed in my doorstep, I returned to normal. I don't know what's wrong with me.

[Sheslocdup]

Cont...just as they did. I used those same scriptures and line of reasoning. listening to your discussion, I feel so stupid (looking back). However, I now know I was brainwashed and I am truly grateful for my lifes sake and the lives of my children that I left. I'm now bordering on Atheism. Having looked through almost every religion and researching along with taking a New Testament course, I finding it harder and harder to believe there is a God. Scientifically there's no PROOF!

[Sheslocdup]

Great work! I was a JW for 11 yrs until Nov 2009. I had to do a paper on something important to me, long story short, I start to research my religion and found all the untruths, contradictions and racism that was displayed. I also looked up the founders info and low in behold I was stumped, baffled and shocked. I went to the elders for answer and just as these women, they had no solid ones to back the religion, etc. I left right then. Those women were taught as I was to speak just as

[MsAgnosticatheist]

I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, so i know the depth of the mind control. It is a cult and they are a group of people with the in group mentality. I realized all religion was false at the same time I realized that Jehovah's Witnesses were. I went from being a Jehovah's Witness to an atheist.

[tranceman22]

Has anyone noticed the glaring irregularity here. Yahweh forbade eating from the tree of knowledge ( one tree). Adam and Eve were cast out not for eating of the tree, but in case they then ate from the tree of life and gained immortality. Gen3.22......... But wasn't there no death anyway?

[MercuryShining]

The woman talking about God at around 10:00 is putting the cart before the horse. She's deciding what God is and then making the "evidence" (in this case, the Bible) fit her definition ("God wouldn't do that!"). Urgh!! In my opinion, this is one of the most frustrating aspects of conversing with the religious.

[Comp1337e]

That was awesome! I hope they come back. Please record that one too. How did you got about recording that anyhow? Did you just turn on the recorder on your computer? Get your friend to come too if you know when they'll come back. I'm surprised they didn't asked you about a definitely day and time to come back.

[ReligiousFiction]

@Comp1337e - Based on the less-well-spoken woman's expression and body language, I wasn't surprised that she didn't set a time to come back. She seemed very eager to leave.

I recorded with my iPhone, which I had close.

[Comp1337e]

@ReligiousFiction Oh. Thank you for the response. The one witness felt more open to reasoning than the other. She sounds cute too. Haha. Anyhow, I hope they come back.

[thingonthewalludnt]

you know?? I am always surprised at how nice and considerate you seem to be...

[ReligiousFiction]

@thingonthewalludnt - Thanks :) I do try to be considerate.

[Ushawn]

It doesn't matter what I think. God's judgement makes it clear what was right. When someone simply searches God's Word for "loopholes" they will never find the truth. Thankfully, God gives us what we need to know, without burdening us with excessive details, just as he did with Adam and Eve. They had NO reason to disobey except greed. He provided for them abundantly. As they learned, there is no loophole in God's law. HE was and is the authority and we do well to listen and obey.

[Ushawn]

Adam WAS perfect until he willfully chose to break God's law. Both Adam and Eve were created perfect with free will. Adam was Not repentant but blamed his wife. Eve was "thoroughly deceived" but still knowingly disobeyed and was also not repentant. Both died, so it should be self-evident that they never regretted their sin against God. Therefore, there was no basis for forgiveness. Read Genesis 2. The rest of the scriptures make explicit what is implicit. ALL scripture must be in harmony.

[ReligiousFiction]

@Ushawn - At what point in the decision making process do you think Adam became imperfect? When he considered sinning? When he actually took the fruit? When he bit it? And if he became imperfect when he 'willfully chose to break god's law', then we don't need a 'perfect' sacrifice to replace him.

Also, are you saying that if Adam & Eve had repented, they wouldn't have died? Where did god offer that loophole?

[thejahoflife]

@ReligiousFiction Spirit creatures have been alive for billions of years ahead of us and none of them have ever been destroyed nor had they chosen disobedience until after humans were created. Humans were not to touch a specific non human creation (tree of G and B) and spirits were not to interact with humans in a human manner (sex) both creations failed at the same time (but not all spirit creatures took part) free will is your gift from God. Use it wisely. God will help you choose.

[SpecialPioneerSmerf]

@thejahoflife All of which you have absolutely no proof of what so ever.

[DaMuttzNutz]

@Ushawn If God is omniscient and omnipotent then surely God knew Adam would do that? Therefore the sin is derived directly from God and not Adam's, who was merely playing his part in God's plan. If not, then God is not omniscient and by implication not omnipotent either.

[Ushawn]

@DaMuttzNutz What you are proposing is pre-destination; ie: when an individual makes a decision, his choice cannot be other than the way God has foreseen it; otherwise, God would not be all-knowing. The idea that God foreknows all decisions would mean that he is responsible for all that happens—including wars, injustices, and suffering. Is that reasonable? Then why give man a choice? Whether God chose to know or not in No way determined THEIR choice. WE are responsible for OUR decsions.

[Ushawn]

@DaMuttzNutz Illustration- If you explained to your underage son the consequences of drunkeness (without explaining all the medical intracacies & implications) & expressed that you "positively" disapproved & the consequences of HIS choice, would YOU be guilty if he defiantly chose to disobey? (You knew what would happen IF.). He didn't NEED to get drunk. You don't OWE him a detailed explanation. He had a strong basis for trust based on prior experience. HE willfully disobeyed. NOT God.

[DaMuttzNutz]

@Ushawn I suspect you've missed the point of my argument, which is that, given absolute omniscience and omnipotence, God knew beforehand what Adam would do. Therefore Adam was merely a player in God's game and had to play his part according to what God already knew. If this is the case, then any freewill Adam might have thought he had was merely an illusion. If Adam had free will, then God is not omniscient and therefore not omnipotent, and hence not God.

[Ushawn]

@DaMuttzNutz Since the word omniscient does not appear in scripture, here are 2 def's -"1. having infinite knowledge or understanding; 2. having very great or unlimited knowledge". There is no basis for thinking of Adam's disobedience as a "game". God's knowledge would not change Adams free will. I believe your desire to blame God (as Adam did Eve) taints your viewpoint. Regardless of whether God chose to know the outcome or not, the outcome was fully within Adams control. (see illustration)

[DaMuttzNutz]

@Ushawn Sorry, I'm an atheist, so I can't apportion blame to what I don't believe in. Adam and Eve just are another myth that only the most rabidly religious accept as true. Mankind (as far as we know) first evolved in the great rift valley in Africa, not some Mesopotamian garden.

[Ushawn]

@DaMuttzNutz That explains the trouble you have grasping the Biblical explantion for the purpose of the earth. Your inclination is simply to mock, whether that is man or the Creator. You are the ONLY authority. I find that very arrogant. You mock what you CHOOSE to deny, while having no reason, other than your own opinion. Then you critisize a God you choose to deny and speculate pointlessly about the original humans you choose deny. And you call THAT reason and logic?. THAT is delusion!

[DaMuttzNutz]

@Ushawn What evidence do you have that everything was created by God? The answer is NONE; you don't need any as you have faith. Faith requires no reason, logic or proof, even when all available evidence points to the contrary?

Sorry if you mistake that for mockery, but that's your problem, not mine.

[Ushawn]

@DaMuttzNutz Apparently, you can now answer your own questions; that's what Adam thought. Blind faith is very different from faith based on evidence of an intelligent designer with a purpose, which I see everywhere in the universe. (Romans 1:20) Belief in BLIND CHANCE requires far more faith or just plain denial. In any case, 500 characters is insufficient to present further evidence. If wisdom and power in design that came from "nothing" around us doesn't convince you, I can't. Shalom!

[DaMuttzNutz]

@Ushawn Evolution has a goal; improved fitness of a species. There's nothing blind about it. As for the necessary precursors for life occurring somewhere? Well, the universe is huge beyond comprehension. Maybe among the trillions of stars, one has a planet where the conditions are such that life can establish itself.

[DaMuttzNutz]

@Ushawn I'm amazed and humbled in the face of the universe. Arrogance is thinking that I and my kind are so special that some supreme being made it all just for us.

[Uenbg]

God created man in his image. That includes the capacity and desire to show love and appreciation when someone presents you with a beautiful gift from the heart (life and the garden of Eden were given to Adam and Eve by God to enjoy and to fill with offspring).

Now if God did not also provide an outlet for showing these emotions, now THAT would be cruel. Was the tree therefore placed to give Adam and Eve the ability to show their appreciation for being allowed to use the rest of the garden?

[Ushawn]

@Uenbg Surely disobedience should not be an appropriate outlet to express gratitude. The tree of the knowledge of good and bad was there to establish Gods right as the supreme authority (having given them life) to govern them and their descendants, as to what is good and what is bad. Their rejection of Gods authority was not a sign of appreciation, but a serious lack of it. Simple obedience to their creator would have been the appropriate expression of gratitude but they showed greed.

[ReligiousFiction]

@Ushawn 1. If Adam & Eve hadn't eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they couldn't know whether obedience was good or bad. They also couldn't know who to believe.

2. Your point contradicts the JWs' point; if 'god' wants obedience based on authority, then he doesn't want decisions based on the 'heart.'

[Ushawn]

@ReligiousFiction 1, You are suggesting the threat of death could somehow be good? Surely, Adam and Eve had both seen dead animals in the garden and knew there was nothing good about it. 2. I don't understand your point. Decisions are made in the brain. The emotions of the heart, if not controlled (ie: pride) can override intelligent thought. A wise person serves God because he knows God's rulership is wiser, more righteous and better than any other. He is also our Creator and father.

[MegaVolcano]

@Ushawn Adam and Eve would have NEVER seen a dead animal, because before they ate from the Tree of Knowledge, there was no death in the world. It was the 'Fall of Man' that brought death into the world. Which begs the question: If there was no death in the world, why would Adam and Eve have to eat anything in the first place? Why were they created with genitals and anuses for passing waste if they were perfect in the first place?

[Ushawn]

@MegaVolcano Why do you assume that? Man was created separate from the animals, as intelligent beings. Humans, if faithful would have never died. That promise was NEVER made to any animals. They don't sin, since they have no concept of a creator. The "fall of man" had nothing to do with the rest of creation. Only their offspring inherited their sin. Regarding part two of your question I don't understand the logic and won't spend much time thinking about it unless you can be clearer.

[Uenbg]

@Ushawn that's the point, God provided them with the option of expressing their gratitude, no tree means no choice, which in turn means no option to use the emotions they COULD have tapped into, namely gratitude and respect.

That Adam and Eve made the wrong choice, tapped into the wrong emotions (pride) and were disobedient was not God's fault or plan from the start (nor is it likely that he CHOSE to see that particular future, like watching the end of a movie before you play the whole movie).

[DaMuttzNutz]

@DaMuttzNutz ...for what's it's worth, the creation myth and the garden of eden have been traced to ancient Babylon, where they were picked up by the Hebrews. It isn't even a Judean story, never mind a Christian one. I live in a universe which moves according to well-understood scientific laws and am fortunate to live in a country where free thought isn't frowned upon. I have free will (as far as I'm able to tell) and I dont live my life trying to please some imaginary tyrant in the sky.

[SpecialPioneerSmerf]

@Ushawn "Eve was "thoroughly deceived" but still knowingly disobeyed"

LOL Now that is what you call a contradiction!

So if a you tell your 10 year old child not to eat a candy bar, and another adult comes along and tells the child they can eat the candy bar, you come back and ask the child why they ate and they tell you the other adult told them they could, you would proceed with throwing that child out on the street, and all the children they have to suffer the same fate? Not loopholes, logic.

[SpecialPioneerSmerf]

@Ushawn Gen 3:6... Afterward she gave some also to her husband when with her and he began eating it.

Gen 3:11 At that he said: “Who told you that you were naked? From the tree from which I commanded you not to eat have you eaten?” 12 And the man went on to say: “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me [fruit] from the tree and so I ate.” 13 With that Jehovah God said to the woman: “What is this you have done?” To this the woman replied: “The serpent—it deceived me and so I ate.”

[SpecialPioneerSmerf]

@Ushawn You claim Adam wasn't repentant and started a rebellion... none of what you say is found in the passage. I don't see God giving Adam a chance to prove this. After questioning them, God immediately handed out the punishment. Adam told the truth right away, and Eve told the truth right away, and that's it for their side of the story, both recounted exactly what happened, nothing here to suggest otherwise. Anything beyond is pure speculation and conjecture. No second chance, no forgiveness.

[SpecialPioneerSmerf]

@ReligiousFiction I love the story of Adam and Eve, it shows just how unforgiving the Abrahamic God character really is, nowhere do we find any love in that passage. Logic is the enemy of WatchTower reasoning, they are looking for easy converts, and is most likely why the woman wanted to run, they are programmed to teach you, not the other way around. Thankfully you were able to plant some doubts which may lead to the freeing of their minds (someday). Commit them to a return visit next time =)

[DaMuttzNutz]

@SpecialPioneerSmerf logic and reason are the enemies of all religions



[SpecialPioneerSmerf]

@DaMuttzNutz Thankfully there are people that care enough to go through all the effort to bring logic and reason to the delusional... and I thank those people every day for that freedom of thought =)

[DaMuttzNutz]

@SpecialPioneerSmerf Indeed, whenever The Witnesses come banging on my door, they generally don't last five minutes, but I usually leave them with something to think about, and hopefully take back to The Kingdom Hall.

[Ushawn]

Re:your question,"Why did God place the tree in the garden?", everyone involved admitted they didn't know the answer. The point of the tree was to establish God's authority. God, just as any parent, does not explain every instruction. A&E knew the penalty for disobedience and did not question it at the time. They had no reason to disobey. Their Father had provided everything they needed, however, they were not satisfied. Selfishly, they risked being "like God" and began dying that day. (Gen 2)

[SpecialPioneerSmerf]

@Ushawn Your rewording the bible, it did not say "they would start to die".

Gen 2:17 'But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for IN THE DAY you eat from it you will POSITIVELY DIE.'

Gen 3:4 At this the serpent said to the woman:“YOU positively will not die... KNOWING good and bad.” They didn't even know good from bad.

Eve did not die that day.

The snake told the truth.

God lied... or humans made up these stories.

[SpecialPioneerSmerf]

@Ushawn Your rewording the bible, it did not say "They would start to die".

Gen 2:17 'But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for IN THE DAY you eat from it you will POSITIVELY DIE.'

Gen 3:4 At this the serpent said to the woman:“YOU positively will not die... KNOWING good and bad.”

They didn't even know good and bad.

Eve didn't die that day.

The talking snake told the truth.

So either God lied... or this is a childish myth writ by imperfect humans.

[Ushawn]

@SpecialPioneerSmerf Judging by your screen name, I'm not sure it matters what I say but I'll try to explain. When a judge condemns someone to death, they have, in a sense, "died" that day. God's judgement was irreversible, since Adam, as a perfect man, selfishly and knowingly rebelled against God and condemned his own children to death, as soon as they were born. Satan, speaking through the serpent, was the original liar. Perhaps it is childish human thinking that is at fault, not God's.

[SpecialPioneerSmerf]

@Ushawn Again, where is that in the passage? Your adding to the scripture. It is an absolute statement by God. When a judge sentences you to death you (usually for murder not eating fruit) your not dead that day, you can repeal, escape etc. God did not say "for in that day you will in a 'sense' die" he said "you will POSITIVELY DIE". It's your interpretation (well not yours, the WatchTowers interpretation that you are forced to believe or else!) which is just the opinion of a few old men... cont

[SpecialPioneerSmerf]

@Ushawn who vote on these teachings and claim it's from God. I find it interesting that just a few scriptures back in the Creative Days scriptures, the WT doesn't take the creative days as "literal" days (rather billions of years), when the bible is clear that it is "a day" and not years, however the Garden of Eden story is taken as literal. How do you know? Did the WT base some of this decision on creative time period on science and what we know about the planets age (men not god)?.. cont

[SpecialPioneerSmerf]

@Ushawn Adam wasn't perfect because he could sin. Adam didn't rebel, he listened to his wife and she was deceived by a talking Snake (according to you was a super intelligent super natural being.. although it's not stated). They fessed up immediately, told the truth and still God did not show mercy or forgiveness and threw them outside to die, and all their children after them (billions who had nothing to do with it). Your interpretation/opinion of the story does not match the scripture. Peace

[merlinspower]

God is teaching us to benefit ourselves. I believe that God watches over us all everyday. Our actions thoughts and words are recorded for Judgement day.

[megthepearl]

Oh yes, with about as much respect and utmost kindness as Judas kissing Jesus.

Respect would have been to tell them they were going to be recorded. Then they could have prepared for it, like ' you ' did.

Examine a trees 'own' leaves. Examine the pages of ' our ' publications. Regards.

[ReligiousFiction]

@megthepearl - I understand your qualms about the recording, but claiming these two were unprepared is ridiculous. It was very obvious that they had a rehearsed answer for every rehearsed question they asked. I didn't prepare before; I met them as an equal and we had a reasonable exchange. I hope to do so again in the future.

I've looked at Watchtower publications, and found nothing different there than what I'd find in an LDS or Baptist or 7th Day Adventist literature.

[CrazyBluePrime]

@megthepearl

Cry about it more, if you think a deity is guiding your reps actions, it should be easy to demolish every single argument presented to them.

[SpecialPioneerSmerf]

@megthepearl Yes, examine the WatchTower publications to find the most disturbing doctrine changes ever dared by one religion.

[USERNAMEfieldempty]

Exactly... if it wasn't a test, WHY did he put the Tree of Evil in the middle of an innocent paradise???(An all-knowing God would already know the answer to this test)

If he only wanted us to be obedient, why did he create A+E impulsive and curious and tempt them?

And why did he throw a huge fit when Adam and Eve behaved PRECISELY according to his design?

Adam and Eve were SUPPOSED TO EAT THE APPLE. It was God's will. (Which means he's a f'king psycho)

[blee072]

Thank you for posting this. I sincerely wish that I could have such a conversation with my Jehovah's Witness mother and sister, but their reasoning all simply refer back to the Bible and they have little to no thoughts of their own. I commend that particular person for admitting that she doesn't know the answer to your question - it very rarely happens when conversing with Jehovah's Witnesses.

[PluralOfEverything]

@prismseeker Ok, thanks for the clarification. I'll remember that if I ever encounter any jehovah's witnesses.

[stasha74]

Hello there! What a great talk you all had. Yes I must agree you guys were Very nice. As One of Jehovahs Witness's myself know it can be hard sometimes when people are mean. I wouldnt mind at all if someone recorded me, that way they can hear the scriptures again and look in there own copy of the Bible Also. I commend you again for your awesome kindness :)

[ReligiousFiction]

@stasha74 - Thanks, Stasha. I do hope they come back; I'd like to discuss more with them. Thanks for your comments. I would be interested to hear how you held a similar conversation.

[stasha74]

@ReligiousFiction Your most welcome! How I held similar conversations is being loving and kind and Really loving what I do and #1 is teaching the bible and not my own thoughts. At 2 Timothy 3:16,17 (King James Version) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Have a great day Stasha

[ReligiousFiction]

@stasha74 - I just had a thought about your scripture quote. When (we assume Paul) wrote that all scripture is given by god, you realize that those very words were not yet scripture, right?

[Ushawn]

@stasha74 I agree with you. The couple had their own opinions & were respectful & thoughtful. I cannot say that for some of the other posters here who put words in your mouth, twist what you say & are completely disrespectful to the Creator. However, I feel it is dishonest to record someone without their knowledge. If it was for their own use only, perhaps it could be justified but what is the reason for making it public? Nevertheless, as you said, everyone was kind; Jesus would approve.

[Jewelsheam]

@stasha74 This was a great audio presentation! I could listen to this conversation over and over. Very delightful and stimulating! We'll probably never really know but it would be fun to research the purpose of "the tree." I'm sure there are some interesting theories out there! :-)

[PluralOfEverything]

@prismseeker Ah, so I guess nonexistence is what they think salvation is from. I don't see what's so bad about that.

[merlinspower]

@prismseeker .. True.. They believe in Everlasting life with god, or to be asleep in death for eternity. They also believe that the earth is where they/we will reside. Paradise earth, it will be restored.

[PluralOfEverything]

@merlinspower Don't they also believe that lions used to be vegetarians?

[themakerofmine]

A very nice conversation and highly respectable tones. If Adam and Eve, told by God that they would die if they were to eat of the tree, should He first explain what death is before giving an order not to do something? The tree of life or lies?

[merlinspower]

@prismseeker . . She will be back in ONE WEEK ! to the day

. Or an Elder will accompany her next time.

[merlinspower]

Furthermore , God is interested in what is in Your heart. Can you work alone , unsupervised ? , Will you use your own initiative and do good, without immediate threat of punishment or death. ? It would appear to US that we are alone, nobody watching over us., but I once thought that also. I was mistaken. I am part of a plan, or purpose ,.... (a mission) you could say.

[ReligiousFiction]

@merlinspower - "God is interested in what is in your heart" - that's the point one of the JWs was trying to make, but she also said that god wanted blind, unquestioning obedience. God can't have both! That's the problem with a literal Adam and Eve story and the concept of a caring god.

Yes, I can work alone and unsupervised. And we are truly _un_supervised.

[jiberish001]

Man created God in his image.

[Tummasfo]

@jiberish001 so his image is imperfect?

[ReligiousFiction]

@Tummasfo - Definitely imperfect (both humans and their made-up gods): jealous, vindictive, unjust, merciless, violent, xenophobic... *sometimes.*

[jiberish001]

God is evil. The proof is overwhelming and undeniable.

[opaldragon75]

OMG I hope I don't have to exist for ever!! My soul would go insane... unless my free will was destroyed but then my nothing more then a simple wine-up toy; or even like a DVD movie stuck in a loop.

Thank goodness the bible is a fairytale!

[isisdron]

Thank you for posting this video. I am not religious, but I believe that you and your friend treated these women with the utmost respect and kindness, and let a wonderful conversation take place. Well done, and I agree with the viewpoint that selfishness is both a virtue and a vice- without it, we dont survive, and with too much of it, we continuously hurt others. thats why reciprocal altruism came about, to soften that blunt selfishness, and to give us incentive to do for others. well done !

[ReligiousFiction]

@isisdron - thank you very much. I wonder what her response would have been if she'd allowed herself to think about it, instead of giving me her prepared response. I said there are problems in the world because of human selfishness, and she replied that it's because of Adam.

[merlinspower]

@ReligiousFiction respectfully , I disagree with the answer ,.. that its" because of Adam." You and I don't mind being held accountable for what we did right or wrong.. (if we get caught). But in the Fair world  that WE would like to think we can live in, Thats NOT reality.TRUTH or total understanding, which we expect from Omniscience diety.

[OjLeno]

lol, "but you know, that wasn't God's purpose... [now accept my view of God's purpose for you, or I'll have to ask you again about what you believe is going to happen after death]".

[MtlRedAtheist]

You have a great way of communicating that is disarming. I wish I had that talent. I can't seem to help but sound confrontational, when I get into these.

[ReligiousFiction]

@MtlRedAtheist - Thank you very much. I do think it takes all types; I may be more subtle and you may be more outright, but we are well matched for people on the flip sides of the 'belief' coin, somewhere.

[allTRIPLE1]

I enjoyed this video. You were very respectful and still placed some difficult questions in front of the believers.

[entwood]

Well you tied them up in logical knots, but it's like winning an argument with a Harry Potter fan over the origin of Voldemort's evil. It's a good natured indulgence in their fantasy though, and I hope it plants a seed of doubt in their minds.

[ReligiousFiction]

@entwood - Hahaha! "It's like winning an argument with a Harry Potter fan over the origin of Voldemort's evil" Hahahaha!

[wimsweden]

Maybe next time you could ask them for a defintion of "perfect". Plus, what is the difference between god being perfect and a person being perfect?

It's also the first time I hear a Christian claiming Yahweh's not all-knowing.

Your comments about being informed reminded me of the method of "informed consent" in clinical studies. The more informed you are, the better your choice. We find it ethical to inform as much as possible before committing someone to something potentially life-threatening.

[merlinspower]

Allow me to continue.. If God steps in to prevent the impending mistake, stops the student from failing completely, then the student will think that Mankind can govern himself. Every Government has or is failing. Look at the World. Do you believe that a NWO, New world order or government is the answer to the problems that we face? History has proved otherwise , Without Gods interferance.

[ReligiousFiction]

@merlinspower - In your example, the teacher didn't explain the consequences if the student fails. A person cannot make a good decision without ALL the information. They can just make the best decision with what they have at the time. Surely an omniscient god would know and understand that no sane person would choose destruction, when we're tweaked by natural selection to prefer pleasure and life.

[merlinspower]

@ReligiousFiction I understand the point that you are making. Well said. . I also asked these questions, when I studied with JW's. If God is our Teacher or Parent, then he wants to teach US to benefit ourselves. He  does not want or need mindless slaves that do as he orders. He can create machines or robots to do that as we do. In our world , there are consequences for bad behavior.. we call it accountability. But this world is not fair

[TemporalOnline]

About the guy @6:00, if they are perfect and have all the information, they should NOT make the wrong choice (again, IF the meaning of perfection doesn't mean just in sin from god's persp.).

If someone has all the info and has the power to make the right choices and yet choose the wrong path, they were never perfect in the first place, and neither were in the right state of mind, they were delusional by some outside force like feelings, but then again, not perfect.

[ReligiousFiction]

@TemporalOnline - Right. I've thought about that some more; we almost ALWAYS act with our self preservation in mind. If it's self preservation on the line, VERY few will choose annihilation or torture. Certainly not a 'perfect' person.

[AllOtherNamesTaken2]

I'm afraid of being forgotten before I die without ever having had a good friend or lover, but I still don't believe in bullshit.

[IntelligentProbe]

@AllOtherNamesTaken2 Amen.

[Skavar4000]

Now this is better. Putting a spotlight on some of the incongruous statements being made. Well done.

[ReligiousFiction]

@Skavar4000 - Haha! Well, maybe we had to get warmed up ;)

[ShunThisAss]

7:02 - The funny part is that while they pride themselves on not believing in hell, they do believe in their god destroying women and children in Armageddon. And of course they believe in Noah's flood, where a similar story is told, but with use of drowning instead.

[Afterthoughtbtw]

I wish JWs came to my door. :( The only time I've been approached by someone looking to 'share the news', I was on a bus, and therefore didn't have much time to talk.

I felt you did a really good job of raising questions without being too threatening - there must have been times you were thinking 'WTF?!' and wanted to be a bit more forceful, but you resisted admirably! :)

[jipersson]

How would a person with no free will not trust a talking snake.

How would an omniscient god not know about the conversation.

When did the apple turn from being some knowledge prolonging remedy to just being a fruit able to keep a doctor away one day at a time.

[dutchbb1979]

These witnesses just live in another world, they don't understand science, they don't understand reason. Discussing these people is a complete waste of time.

[PluralOfEverything]

How did they introduce themselves at the door? Did they say they came to learn about your beliefs, or did they say they came to share their own? Or did they say both? It's interesting how they danced around the question of what Jebus is saving us from, though not surprising. The honest answer would have been Hell, but they knew if they said that they'd lose a sale. I hope you gave them some atheist bibles (blank pieces of paper) to take home with them.

[ReligiousFiction]

@PluralOfEverything - They told me they came to share a message... I can't remember if it was 'from the bible.' They started by asking me what I thought of Jesus, whether he was just a man or someone worth remembering, and I threw them off their game right away by saying those were not mutually exclusive propositions. I think they were off script several times.

[TheraminTrees]

Love the onscreen text commentary — especially the 'most honest answer' and 'so we must refer to texts other than the bible'. What half-surprises me is the lack of thinking they'd done around these questions, like the purpose of putting the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden. It will indeed be interesting to see what happens if they return ;8)

[ReligiousFiction]

@TheraminTrees - Thanks for listening AND watching! I do indeed hope they return :) It amazes me all the different shades of literal interpretation I've encountered. Some systems of belief are more internally consistent than others, but those (like these) that are more consistent can almost sound more crazy!

[PluralOfEverything]

@TheraminTrees They probably won't.  Questions are the enemy of unquestioning faith.

[TheraminTrees]

@PluralOfEverything I'm just thinking back to one summer when me and Qualia invited some door-to-door JWs in, and we ended up debating weekly for 6 weeks. Eerie watching these two videos — remembering the way our JWs giggled too, at the start — all their politeness, and 'I never thought of that's. By week 5, they were shouting that homosexuality was DIRTY AND DISGUSTING!!! Quite a transformation as the layers get stripped away.

[ReligiousFiction]

@TheraminTrees - *jaw drops*

That sounds creepy. I'm sure there many layers and walls up, and to see them come down, especially revealing such vitriol... *shivers* I'd love to hear you and QualiaSoup tell the full story! What all did you discuss? How did the meetings change? Exciting!

[IntelligentProbe]

Perhaps she didn't know what omniscient means.

Another good question, is why the temptation by Satan? Why allow Satan to be there to deceive? Is being deceived the same thing as direct disobedience? The very question "Has God said..." implies that Eve didn't hear it for herself. And Adam, after knowing that Eve ate an nothing happened realized God seemingly lied. :)

[ReligiousFiction]

@IntelligentProbe - GREAT question! "why the temptation by Satan? Why allow Satan to be there to deceive? Is being deceived the same thing as direct disobedience? The very question "Has God said..." implies that Eve didn't hear it for herself. And Adam, after knowing that Eve ate an nothing happened realized God seemingly lied."

[PluralOfEverything]

@IntelligentProbe Also, how was it a deception by Satan if what he said would happen after they ate the fruit happened and what Yahweh said would happen didn't for nearly a thousand years? After all, they didn't eat from the tree of life, so they weren't immortal. No doubt the JWs would have talked about "spiritual death", despite the lack of mention of spirits in genesis, but the fact remains that Yahweh withheld information from them.

[merlinspower]

@IntelligentProbe .. are you suggesting , "selective disclosure", ? And to answer your question, .. God had to allow man to try to RULE himself and fail or succeed, for him to know why following Gods wishes, only BENEFIT mankind. God does not require your company. Teaching you to benefit yourself, so that YOU can have everlasting life.

[IntelligentProbe]

@merlinspower Sounds good, I'll set you up to fall, so you can see how much you need me. God is Great. :/

[merlinspower]

@IntelligentProbe .. Set you up to fail ? I see this differently. Imagine a classroom. The teacher  represents God. The class has a student that has a different way of solving a problem, and tells the teacher that his way is incorrect. If the teacher does not allow the student to demonstrate his way, the entire class cann't learn what happens if you take the wrong turn. Allow a rebellion , but the choice was yours to make. It is free will. Not a Trick

[jmm1233]

sounds like a train station

[ReligiousFiction]

@jmm1233 - Yep, I live in a train station! ;)

[huggysh]

Hmmm, first of all I regard myself as an Ex-JW for reasons that I won't go into now. However, regarding the JW Girl, I thought she did very well in answering those questions. The other Christian also has strong beliefs of his own and the Atheist raised some very good points in the form of questions. All in all due to the many possible answers (not all of them logical or well thought out) we must assert that at best religion is man or at worst God wanted to see us suffer to prove some point.

[ReligiousFiction]

@huggysh - Definitely, the JW who admitted when she couldn't answer questions, but answered the ones she could, was the most pleasant to converse with, and did the best in the conversation. You're right that there are SO many questions and SO many answers... someone has even pointed out that other JWs who were deeper into the faith would have given yet other answers.

[PanWolven]

5:11 - I sincerely hope you don't mean to say that you'd let a "normal" child make that choice. ;)

On a serious note, it seemed to me that they were quick to get up and run when they painted themselves into a corner with "god's test" and your questions got too direct to sidestep. :)

[ReligiousFiction]

@PanWolven - Haha! Oops! Nope. Not without all the information... um, and not even then. Yeah, what kind of eternal 'parent' would even GIVE the child that choice? That's SICK!

You are quite right about running away - one of the ladies was still quite interested in conversing, but one of them had been inching away from the door and turning her body away from us for many minutes before she finally (and unexpectedly) said they were leaving.

[PanWolven]

@ReligiousFiction Oh, oh, I know the answer to this one! A psychotic eternal parent! :)

From their voices I can imagine which one was which. It was like listening to a god cop/bad cop routine at times. I know I misspelled 'good cop', but I refuse to change it simply because it's funnier this way. :) I've had a similar experience with jehovas many years ago. I was arguing with a 30+ man while a 20'ish girl was giggling slightly behind his back.

[chickinstompin]

you have been put on the NO KNOCK LIST.

[ReligiousFiction]

@chickinstompin - Awww, I hope they come back! :)

[limericklad2000]

It's so sad to hear the crap that's coming out of the mouths of what seem intelligent and genuinely nice people. Very very sad.

[zarkoff45]

A question you didn't ask, would heaven really be that great? Without pain, how do we develop compassion? Without pain, how do we know pleasure?

watch?v=Io_TMXrZcoI

[ReligiousFiction]

@zarkoff45 - Interesting thoughts. Having created my own version of heaven when I was a believer, I still think heaven would be great. Mine involved being able to slip into and out of the perception of time, so it's still eternal, but more fun for a former human like I would be. I'd get to skip to any time, any place in the universe, explore any biology on any planet... as you can see, it was a very sciencey afterlife I wanted :)

[MrFivefivefivesix]

@ReligiousFiction So, your heaven had you as The Doctor from Dr. Who?

Watch out for the Daleks! D:

[merlinspower]

@ReligiousFiction You are very honest. This is why I favorite your channel and save your videos and share this interaction. If I was to choose to be practicing ANY of the several religions that exist on this planet,.. To be a Jehovas Witness would be the one. But God does not Need you to worship him. That is Not why you are here. Your soul is your (energy), and it cannot be created nor destroyed, Only Transformed from one form to another or place

[IntelligentProbe]

@merlinspower so what happens to the "soul" in hell?

[merlinspower]

@IntelligentProbe ... Hell does not exist.. You will not go to a place that does NOT exist. If you do not obtain everlasting life, you will be asleep in death for eternity. After Judgement day.

[isisdron]

@ReligiousFiction I think we all invent our own heavens. I have heard many religious say that they would beg God to let them explore the universe when they die. I want the same thing! We can see so much and yet it is still but a little...ah we humans can dream, can't we?

[ReligiousFiction]

@isisdron - Yes, we can dream up our own heavens. It's great that more and more people are realizing those are JUST dreams and fantasies! Better to to live the lives we have now than risk missing everything. Maybe THAT'S the real answer to Pascal's wager! What if THEY'RE wrong???

[merlinspower]

@ReligiousFiction . But What could we Learn in a perfect world , surrounded by perfect individuals. How could we advance? Where would be the challenge to do better?. The Garden of Eden and heaven are perfection, the perfect dream or fantasies. Does anyone wish to have a second  chance.? Is this our REDEMPTION ISLAND !

[merlinspower]

@ReligiousFiction .. What if they are right ?

[merlinspower]

@zarkoff45 Good question,.. and a very good point that you are focused on. If everything was perfect, and good, how would we learn to appreciate what we could loose and have lost.

[merlinspower]

I believe in Sharing Truth , so that others have a complete understanding. What happened was a sharing of time and adult civil conversation. You were polite. I wonder if you informed them that  you would tape this conversation and did you ask permission to share it on you-tube with the world ?

[ReligiousFiction]

@merlinspower - I didn't, MerlinsPower. I considered that I might next time.

[IntelligentProbe]

@ReligiousFiction no names or faces are shown/spoken, so it shouldn't be a big issue, but the law may have a different view.

[TheTheistlikeatheist]

Note To Self:

Wow, it sounded like ReligiousFiction had a HollyWood sound effects CD playing during this conversation.

[ReligiousFiction]

@TheTheistlikeatheist - You mean the train, birds, microwave...? :)

[AtheistsThinkMore]

It's just frightening (in 2011) to hear people who think the story of Adam & Eve is true.

[xxxMST3Kxxx]

Wonderful Job, I actually feel very sad for these kids. Loved the little flashing comments :)

[unassumption]

God doesn't appear to be omniscient in these passage...

GOD IS LOVE! HE IS LOOOOOOOVE!!!!!!!!!!

[ReligiousFiction]

@unassumption - Another response that made me wonder if there was a language barrier! "God doesn't seem omniscient..." "God is LOVE..." "Uh... that's not the topic we're on..."

[unassumption]

@ReligiousFiction

Differing definitions and names cause most disagreement but this seems more a case of finding the point too difficult to answer or just not giving a damn about it and moving to something they can and care about, that "God is love!" Wouldn't say its as conscious as Bill O changing topic.

[no1saphead]

Why are all the pictures and painting of Eden made to look like the jungle in Vietnam

[no1saphead]

They practice at just making it up as they go Good video Girl !

[Campineiroamericano]

It is amazing to continue to hear these delusions from these JW girls. They (JW) continue to do tremendous work in brainwashing.

[merlinspower]

@Campineiroamericano You are sadly mistaken. You have not done your research and assume what has not been discussed in this video. JW's Do not believe in Brainwashing you or anyone else. They are doing , what others who came before them did . That was sharing the TRUTH, as the first deciples had done The first creation was Jesus and the Fallen angel, was the second. He was a beautiful angel , before he turned. The devil also told the first LIE.

[ReligiousFiction]

@merlinspower - I think you guys might need to come to an agreement of what brainwashing is. Usually it involves convincing/compelling people what to think, especially with the fear of pain or abandonment, rather than teaching them how to think and allowing them to draw their own conclusions. Especially if it starts early in life, this is brainwashing.

[TheoKluges]

Good listen....just wondering why you sub grouped the other Christians as Jehovah's Witnesses without sub grouping the one you referred to as a Christian....lol...the weather is breaking and I've already had a wonderful conversation with two JW's myself. I wish I had recorded it.

[ReligiousFiction]

@TheoKluges - Good question. Why separate the 'JW's from the 'Christian' label?

1. For a better title which will possibly attract more varied viewers

2. Because the two kinds of Christians in this conversation are just about as different as they can be and still be considered the same religion

3. Old mental habit - JWs are soooo foreign to me they never quite seemed like my version of Christianity, when i was a Christian.