I watched alot of stuff on the assassination of jfk....a few documentaries prove oswald was the loan gun man, and a few prove he wasn't.......I really don't know what to believe....but i do know that when something like this happens its hard for people to believe that just one man can do it especially the way it was done, to many lose ends to tie..just like 911 it opens up the possibilities for conspiracy
i dont understand how visiting dealy changed your mind...the opposite happens to most people....as far as shreds of evidence.......there are mountains of evidence with witness testimony......start with the parkland doctors who were the first to see kennedy..... "shot in temple, throat wound was an entrance"
You people are fucking nuts, Dealey Plaza was the worst place to have multiple gunman, the motorcade passed through blocks and blocks of high rise buildings, thousands of windows, to think anyone would choose an open area like dealey plaza to kill Kennedy is ridiculous, get over it morons, one man killed Kennedy, but everyone has to believe it WAS something bigger. Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.
@migo53333 I've been to the knoll, surprisingly, most of the CTers have not, I was a conspiracy believer in the beginning, but after 48 years, and not a shred of evidence, or anyone else that did it, I had to be realistic, it is actually quite embarrassing to believe it was a conspiracy, the evidence and I mean the hard physical evidence is just to powerful to ignore.
@svanderson78 Ponder this for a moment, why would anyone, in this case 2 guys stand behind the fence on top of the grassy knoll (as witnessed by lee bowers) peering out at the motorcade to see the prez.......sorry, but wouldnt you be out near the curb, where no one else was standing and get the best view.......no u would rather peer over the fence 30 feet away.....hmmm now lets add lee bowers testimony about seeing a commotion of some kind like smoke and a flash of light or something... (cont)
@svanderson78 (Continued from below) .....and then the biker cop ( I think his name was Hargis) rides his bike up the knoll pulls his pistol and confronts these two guys and they pull out ss credentials........that smells......then you have sam hollland and the rr workers who all heard a blast from the knoll fence...they ran around to the parking lot and found behind the fence between a parked car and the stockade fence footprints in the mud and up on the bumper., so they could see over the fenc
@svanderson78 your a nut..there was more than 1 gunmen..Oswald shot 3 times and missed twice and that fatal shot came from the grassy knoll whether you like it or not..oswald couldn't have shot him in the side of his head...anyway Jesus knows EVERYTHING and I will ask him in Heaven
@grassyknollkiller every comment I read of yours you claim to know something I will say this I agree with you about LHO. But I'm curious to hear what you know!! As a matter of fact all of us here in New Orleans would love to hear your story. I'm best friends with Vincent Marcello's son he is named after his uncle Carlos so do tell us!!!!!!!
@animefareast stay a cartoon because you are retarded!!!! LHO DID NOT kill JFK!!!!! IDIOT also it will be 48 years in November!! You can't even fucking count asshole
curtain rods would be for rooming house room he was staying at. he visited marina at the house of a friend in irvington at the time. and based on the land lady at the rooming house he went back to after the tsbd there was curtain rods there already . btw the employee named jack daugherty (spelling might be off) saw oswald enter work that day and said under oath he didn't recall oswald holding the package the WC tries to put the riffle in and have him carry in.
fucken stupidity. These conspiracy ideas have been going on for 50 years now and all of them have been debunked. Oswald was the only shooter that day.
@animefareast the time will come when you will be very ashamed of this comment you made as LHO had no part in the killing of your president the only true president the USA ever had all presidents ever since are all puppets for the secret war government. your time will come that i a sure of.
even if there was more then one shooter the rest of the shooters were killed right after the shooting after they got out of the united states and their brith certificate were destroyed and just all the flies on them that had proof that they were alive so that no one could spread or know the names of the killers and what they did in their lives so they could just keep it at the one shooter theroy.
Why has there been no official investigation of the E. Howard Hunt confession that he headed up a CIA organized assassination of Kennedy which was carried out at the behest of Lyndon Johnson, who saw it as his only way of being President of the United States?
@mc0558 Because that is not what he "confessed" to. He "confessed" to being approached to participate in a Kennedy assassination plot. Hunt said he turned them down, as if one could actually do that and continue breathing. Hunt named people he believed were involved, most notably Cord Meyer, and claimed LBJ was behind it, but he didn't actually confess to anything as he claimed he was not part of the plot. Hunt's confession is a lot of BS. Not saying there wasn't a plot, but Hunt was a liar.
@pajasa62 Life magazine published 31 frames none of which showed the fatal head shot and violent head snap. You could not see the film as an actual motion picture well in to 1970's..
Look my friend, that problem lies with LIFE MAGAZINE and TIME-LIFE, INC. Why do you think Zapruder needed a lawyer to execute the deal? (besides from shoving money into his pocket). Last I checked, a magazine can't run motion pictures in it's pages.
When Garrison subpoenaed Life magazine (no, not a Federal Agency) for the film he made copies and started touring colleges with it.
Missed what I said below about viewing the film in the National Archives???
@pajasa62 Life bought the rights to still pictures, they then went back to Mr. Z and got the full rights, locked up in the vault so it could not be shown. The frames were also published in the WC Heaing and Exhibits, but they reversed the frames of the fatal head shot. And of course there was no way of knowing until the bootleg copies started coming out from the Garrison office. Garrison however never toured with the film.
Nothing personal, but your chasing your tail talking like you are making some point trying to turn it into something sinister.
Less than an hour after Kennedy was pronounced dead, Zapruder is at WFAA-TV being interviewed live. LESS THAN 1 HOUR after! He's there to get the film processed. Jay Watson tells him & the viewing audience, "we'll get it processed & out as soon as possible". WFAA didn't have an 8mm processor, but is it conceivable to you that if they did they'd try to air the film THEN?
@pajasa62 Sure nothing sinister. How could anyone think such a thing. Didn't Danny Boy Rather go on TV and lie about what the Zapruder film showed? Claimed that JFK was forced violently forward by the force of the shot. Of course no one could say different since the public didn't see it on TV until 1975
Do you think Dan Rather is involved with the conspiracy of a coverup to murder the President? When do you think he "got onboard" with the plot? Was he so lured by..."Hey in 17-1/2 years you'll take over for Walter Cronkite"???
Why don't you try to implement your statements instead of just spitting them out.
@pajasa62 Listen genius, you said the film was not suppressed even though for all practical purposes, you couldn't even get a clear copy of the film or see it as a motion picture. And Dan Rather, one of the few reporters who saw it said JFK was forced forward by the force of the shot. What's your opinion, you think he made a simple mistake? Or is it just another one those mysterious coincidences you lone nutters are so fond of?
So are you saying that Dan Rather (still very much alive today) is part of the conspiracy to coverup JFK's assassination?
So why don't you or the other conspiracy theorist throughout the country (how about Mark Lane, also alive and kicking today) do something about him?
AGAIN I ask : "when did he join the plot?"...."was waiting 17-1/2 years to replace Walter Cronkite, so irresistible to him that he joined the plot...(a capitol offense)?"
@pajasa62 Dan Rather part of a conspiracy? Everything is a conspiracy with you. What is your problem? History provides no incentive Rather or Jennings or these other so called "journalists" to be consistent, truthful, or even curious. They will just parrot whatever the government tells them to.
@pajasa62 Also, tell us your spin on the US Supreme court case where a guy made charcoal drawings of the Zapruder film frames, published them in a book. Then Time actually tied his book up in litigation for 12 years and almost bankrupted his small publisher. How could anyone think the Zapruder film was suppressed .
AND WHAT??? these "charcoal drawings" revealed the real murderers of JFK?
And I understand if you just are innocently unaware of facts...that's fine.
Go watch the PBS "Oswald's Ghost" (2008) which is commercially released, and they show a CBS reporter in 1966 (yeah, 1966!) at the National Archives viewing the Zapruder film...then they have a young Josiah Thompson later saying "I saw the film at the National Archives"
@pajasa62 Thompson was a Haverford U professor who also worked as a Criminal defense investigator. He was hired by TIME and had access to clear copies of the Z film. That was pretty good editing, by Bob Stone. First they show a CBS reporter who claimed to see the film and then they cut to Thompson. whose point was that film in the archives was a of poor quality than the copy Time had. So of course gullible viewers like yourself got the impression that the film was widely available in 1966.
@pajasa62 The point was they wouldn't even allow the public to see charcoal drawings of the Zapruder film of the JFK's assassination. But you claim it was not suppressed and widely available.
"The point was they wouldn't allow the public to see the charcoal drawings"
How ignorant on this subject can you be?
Life Magazine stripped the cover of Roger Staubach and the contents of a magazine ALREADY PRINTED and published 31 FRAMES of the Zapruder film in it's very next weekly issue (11/29/63).
Why do you keep leaving yourself so wide open to being consistently wrong all the time?
You start yapping about some "charcoal drawings" as some kind of proof of a conspiracy (I don't care if they drew the pictures with barbeque sauce)...so just IGNORE what I wrote.
You yap that Dan Rather was part of the conspiracy to coverup the assassination. I ask you to implement this idea,(chronologically, beneficially)...you IGNORE it.
Sure your going to ignore what makes your fragmented ideas fall apart.
@pajasa62 That's crazy after all if they could have just developed the film they would have shown that night on TV. Somehow it didn't happenc cause it was impossible to develop a commercially available 8mm film. Would have could have should have. Just another one of those amazing coincidences.
Again, the simple reality...Zapruder was at WFAA-TV studio less than an hour after JFK was pronounced dead...trying to get the film process. WFAA did not have an on-site 8mm processor. Zapruder then went to a Kodak lab where there was one...what the hell is stumping you on that?
@pajasa62 Most that is irrelevant. You ignore the FACT that the Zapruder film of the assassination was not shown on TV until 1975. Who are you trying to kid? Of course it was suppressed.
For you to deal with it seriously would make you realize that you have no argument. That these fragmented ideas of your don't stand up to reality.
You say: "Of course it was suppressed"
I point out (as shown irrefutably in 1966 on PBS "Oswald's Ghost', 2008) that people could go to the National Archives and view the film through an 8mm viewer.
What do you say? You give this laughable back-peddal.
@pajasa62 The charcoal drawings were made ad the behest of Prof Josiah Thompson. The book showing the drawing was in 12 years of litigation. So how many people, made an appointment and went to the National Archives to view frames of the Z film? That was the only way to see it and your saying it was not supresed from public viewing? Ridiculous.
@pajasa62 , These fables about how the film would have been shown, if they were able to develop it, are just old wives tales. Totally irrelevant and the fact is that Dan Rather claimed to have seen the Zapruder film and said JFK was forced forward by a shot from the rear, there was no mistake about that said Danny boy That's how you get ahead, by lying and deceiving. So your future is bright.
@pajasa62 You suggest that everything like this is related to a massive conspiracy, I certainly never wrote that, but maybe your just listening to the voices in your head or have some kind of agenda you follow.
@pajasa62 All I said was Dan Rather went on national TV after viewing the Zapruder film when no one could see it and reassured the public that it showed JFK was forced forward by the force of the shot from the rear. I missed the retraction by Dan or CBS. You say that was okay cause you could make an appointment to see the film in the National archive, this means it was not suppressed or Dan was part of "conspiracy."
You must have me mixed up with someone else. maybe someone who has some respect for your nutty reasoning. Tell me did Dan Rather lie or was it just another one of those mistakes like reversing the fatal head shot frames in the Warren Commision exhibits so JFK head actually does seem to go violently forward. Maybe that's what Dan saw.
So you think Dan Rather lied? Why do you think he would lie? You think he lied because you think he was involved in a conspiracy but you are AFRAID to commit to it...he's still alive, but you have ZERO proof of anything other than someone witnessing a single viewing of something traumatic and trying to describe it. You can retreat, act coy...whatever, but if you think Dan Rather LIED FOR A REASON ....then SAY THE REASON WHY - don't wimp out.
@pajasa62 You are getting hysterical. The clip of Dan Rather saying JFK was forced violently forward by the force of the shot is in the film "Oswald's Ghost" which you cite. Maybe they ran the film backwards on Dan and he didn't notice. I have no way of knowing if Dan lied or not but his statement certainly is not true. I don't jump to conclusions, that's the job, you've assigned yourself. You are very good at it. I'm more of a Joe Friday "just the facts " type.
Then you must be taking an objective approach to the gun ownerships, the ballistic results for both JFK & Tippet, the autopsy report & professional analysis of it's photos & x-rays. Oswalds flight from TSBD. The 6 people from different walks of life at the Tippet scene voluntarily going to ID him in a lineup...his actions in the theatre. And before the assassination, Oswald's history of subversive actions & spoken/ written words.
@pajasa62 The objective fact that in 1963 it was not possible to buy ammunition for the WWII Italian Carbine rifle. The fact that HSCA medical panel thought the discrepancies between the wound locations in the official autopsy report and the autopsy photos were so severe they discussed exhuming JFK's body in 1978. The fact that the DOD autopsy camera produced by the DOD did not match the autopsy photos. Rather than explaining the so-called evidence, it is ignored in its entirety.
"The objective fact that in 1963 it was not possible to buy ammunition for the WWII Italian Carbine rifle."
WOW!
Your 'I'm Joe Friday, Just The Facts, kind of guy" lasted for 1 day.
Look at the Klein Sporting Goods ad, nowhere on it does it say that the Mannlicher-Carcano is a souvenir or novelty item nor is the ammunition for it obsolete...just the opposite. With some minor digging, Joe Friday should come up with the Western-Cartridge Company manufacturing that particular ammo in 1963.
@pajasa62 I guess you are well awre of it anyway, but the fact is they found no other Carcano ammunition on Oswald's person or his known possessions. In addition, the FBI did an exhaustive investigation contacting every gun an sporting shop within hundreds of miles of Oz known locations. Only one gun shop even sold it and had a full consortment of it as back stock. They had sold it to no on. So where did Oz get the ammunition for the WWII Italian relic. Those are the facts.
You throw around "Objective fact" followed by "in 1963 it was not possible to buy ammunition..." and then retreat into a gray area when what you say is proven incorrect.
You then preclude the purchase of the ammunition being bought another way (despite the rifle and the handgun being ordered by mail) and of course every company, regardless of its size or state its from, or type of purchase must have a microfilmed record of every transaction...if not, Oswald is excused.
@pajasa62 Okay so you concede there is no evidence whatsoever that Oswald purchased ammunition for the Carcano. So the dubious theory is he only fired 3 bullet sleft a live round in the Carcano,but did not fully load the carbine clip. NONE of the Ammo was in his pocket or maong his known possessions.You ridicule the FBI investigation that included hundreds of agents visiting every gun store Oswald could have possible visited.
@pajasa62 The bullet taken out of Tippit don't match Oswald's revolver, there is no reason to believe it was used to kill Tippitt, besides your imagination.
"the bullet taken out of Tippit don't match Oswald's revolver, there's no reason to believe it was used to kill Tippet, besides your imagination"
ANOTHER CLASSIC!
Oswald's revolver was a British 38 caliber that used compatible "38 Special" bullets!
ANY 38 Special fired in that weapon would produce the same ballistic results.
The shells recovered by Benevides & the Davis sisters match the class characteristic of the bullets with the shells matching "TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHERS"
@pajasa62 It's not clear whether that is the reason they didn't match. But you agree the bullets taken out of Tippit didn't match his revolver. The officers who supposedly were given the shell casings didn't keep a proper chain of custody. And as you know Officer Poe refused to identify them as the ones he handled.
NO "38 SPECIAL" BULLETS could be ID'd properly to that gun...PERIOD!...It was a British 38 revolver using compatible bullets....Just ignore the shells matching "to the exclusion of all other weapons"...Why ignore it?...you have to.
Why ignore Oswald pulling that vey gun on Officer MacDonald in the theatre?...you have to.
@pajasa62 No one is ignoring the shells, just pointing out the delay of several months- the fact that they seemed to have gotten lost. They do match Oswald's handgun but it's not clear whether they were the same ones found at the scene. Perhaps thats why the brands of the bullets taken out of Tippit don't identically match the shell casings.
@pajasa62 Much of the "evidence"you cite just indicates Oswald was the victim of a sophisticated frameup. It seems to follwo the pattern outlined in the "Operation Northwoods" proposal where innocent people with left wing associations would be blamed for terrorist attacks within the United State. The documents are on-line at National Security Archives George Washington University.
"Oswald was the victim of a sophisticated frameup"
So sophisticated it hinged on him-
Going to the Paine house unannounced for the first time, bringing a long package to work, PRAY that Oswald isn't watching the motorcade with other workers to give him an alibi, PRAY he flies out of the TSBD, PRAY he goes to the Tippit scene, then get lucky that he pulls the gun that's linked to the Tippit murder on another cop in the theatre, PRAY that 6 people voluntarily go to the police station to ID him.
@pajasa62 Lee went to the Paine house to make up with his wife. Nothing really suspicious about that. Lee left work early and went to the movies. He left work early from his other jobs, so again I think you make too much of his usual behavior
The President of the United States has just been shot outside his place of work...Oswald has a long history of being a subversive...Michael Paine said Oswald would complain that he could only talk about politics with him...his rifle is in the building...and within a quick 4 minutes after the shots he flees the building...DO THE MATH pal...these are all facts.
@pajasa62 Did Mike Paine ever talk to Oz about working for a Nazi war criminal who beat the war crime rap at Nurremberg. Or how his family started the Trotskyite party in the US. Or maybe he could explain how an avowed peace loving Quaker is working with Bell helicopter creating death machines. Or how the ACLU won't get Oz a lawyer and then, how he and the wife mislead Oz. He and his wife are not really what they purport to be. Question everything the Paine's say and why they says it.
@TrueNovice Oswald had a known history for being a loafer on the job. But on 11/22/63, he didn't leave early to catch a double feature. He left because he knew that he was in trouble. I don't think he knew the full weight of blame would fall on him, at least not at first, but he knew he had to hightail it out of there, lest he get caught. Personally, I think he knew that he would be implicated somehow, but he didn't know he was the fallguy. Not til he was arrested.
@pajasa62 The ganbang ID of Lee by the witnesses -mostly of them together in the same room viewing the lineup is a major problem with the so-called identifications. There were even people in the room who were not even witnesses. It's a major problem with the line-up and is enough to throw them out in every US court today. So the id's hold much water.
6 people from different walks of life voluntarily go to the police station and ID him in a lineup on 11/22 and 11/23...just the FACTS...Joe Friday...just the facts.
@pajasa62 Even that day Oswald was mistaken for others, and others were mistaken for Oswald. The bus driver identified Oswald until he thought was Oswald got on the bus the next day while Lee was in custody. Billy Nolan Lovelady, at the TSBD was mistaken for Oswald's, And witnesses swear Oz was with them watching the motorcade. We now know that Oz said he was briefly outside according to the Fritz notes (release in the 1990's) before he went back in.
@TrueNovice Oswald has been mistaken for a lot of people, and vice versa, but there is no one who claims that Oswald was watching the motorcade with them. Nor should there be. Oswald was on the second floor drinking a coke, likely waiting for a call from his handler, George DeMohrenschildt.
Look at the different people at the Tippet scene...look where they were positioned...see how they all merge to where the shots where fire AND CORRUBURATED the events, but NOOO! the conspiracy theorists just by chance had a man, "out of breathe and scared" (according to Johnny Brewer...whom you also must despise) casually going to the movies.(and pull a gun!)
Why the need to defend Oswald? Is it because he's a lefty and you are too? Or is it so entertaining to play "devil's advocate"?
@pajasa62 The Tippit murder seems to have happened earlier than OZ could have walked to the scene, Helen Markham is blocks away from her regular bus when it happens. An to get extra time, the WR suggests the bus would have waited for her. Putting "witnesses" in the same room to view a lineup is a disaster, it contaminates the identification so badly it would be thrown out today. Witnesses want to help the police and if even one says he looks like the guy, the others will agree to it.
@pajasa62 Curtis (Larry) Crafard worked for Ruby and he was mistaken Oswald, A marine sharpshooter, some of the rifle range witnesess though he was the man impersonating Oswald. Others were convinced it was in fact Oswald, but Oz's actual whereabouts are supposedly accounted for. Crafard actually did flee on the day of the Tippit/JFK murder and his behavior was so suspicious WC counsel Griffin was still asking the HSCA to look into it during their half assed "investigation."
@pajasa62 The 2 people who claimed to have seen the rifle/curtain rod package said it was a foot too short to hold it. And the story may have been fabricated since Frazier was a suspect in the case. He may have been encouraged to come up with the story. Frazier sister told the FBI in her first interview, that she saw no such package.
Wesley Frazier stated repeatedly that he HAD NO REASON at the time to to assess the length of the package, that he had only glanced at it, "Oswald never lied to me before, so I had no reason to doubt him that they were curtain rods"
@pajasa62 If Frazier (and his sister) is a foot off in estimate of the length, maybe Frazier was completely wrong about seeing the package at all? But that's the only one who claimed to see it. Alternately we now know that curtain rods were found in the book depository and dusted for prints. A fact which the WR either did not know or lied about it.
@TrueNovice No curtain rods were ever found. If only they were. But they weren't. I believe Oswald brought his rifle to the Book Depository. But he was likely told to do so for some other, false, reason. What they really wanted was to set him up, and Oswald foolishly obliged.
@pajasa62 He obviously didn't buy anything buy mail, since there would be record of that. like the purchase of the rifle itself. The bare minimum you need to prove Oswald was even a shooter was that he was able to get the ammo for a WWII Italian rifle all by his lonesome. That has not even been done 46 yrs later. Go back to your cartoons.
"It's an objective fact that in 1963 it was not possible to ammunition for a Mannlicher-Carcano"
Yep you are a TRUE NOVICE -
The Western Cartidge Company manufacured them, baby, the Klein ad doesn't say it is a non-functional weapon that uses obsolete ammo....
THEN you cite the FBI in one post as a great investigative agency all the while convinced that is corrupt and covering up that your precious Oswald is really innocent.
@pajasa62 I am aware of the ad. They were trying to sell the rifle and would not focus on it's limitation. Often FBI agents did an outstanding job, but their work was so compartmentalized, that when it indicated Oswald's innocence, their work was buried. The study of the laundry tags on the Tippit murder suspects jacket is another case in point. Not release until the late 1990's and clearly indicate the jacket did not belong to Oswald.
Cop-out answer. Pure good cop/ bad cop nonsense wanting to pretend the "bad FBI" were approached by conspirators and the "good FBI" was missed by them.
To make any of your rudderless points to work, just do what I said below....IGNORE what doesn't work for your point of view - it is too steep of a mountain to climb.
@pajasa62 As far as I can tell, the FBI was as innocent as Oswald, and also did not knowingly play a roll in the coverup. The experience of FBI agents Sibert and O'Neill is a telling point. Agent O'Neill used to go the Assasination research stmposiums and verbally attack the audience claiming the WCR was the truth. However when he was asked substantive question of his own experience he came to believe that he and Sibert were victims of the WC counsel Specter and others.
@pajasa62 Again, where was it even possible for Oswald to buy ammunition in the Dallas. New Orleans area. What did he do with the resrof the box of ammo? None was found on his person or known possesions. Where did Oz practise. FBI agents went to rifle ranges and went through thousands of scrap metal, copper shell casing hoping to find one that would fit the Carcano and came up with not one. So again widely available? Maybe if Oz was a soldier in Mussolinis infantry. Otherwise no.
"It's an objective fact that in 1963 it was not possible to ammunition for a Mannlicher-Carcano"
You could go to Mars and they'd understand what you were trying to say...
You just go into a gray area ("Hey where did John Wilkes Booth buy his bullet?")
& just because someone didn't keep a receipt from New Orleans to Mexico City and/or any place it could be mailed to someone that couldn't even give a landlady his real name (with a different alias on him when arrested), you ignore everything.
@pajasa62 You are exactly right pajasa62- why would a magazine buy the motion picture rights to the film and then not allow it to be shown? I think your becoming full blown CTr
So are you blaming Zapruder for selling it to Life Magazine? or are you equating Life Magazine to nothing more than, say, "Sports Illustrated"? Do you know that Zapruder had AP, UPI & other media organizations at his door telling him not to sell until they could make an offer? That CBS through Dan Rather had just received authorization to offer him $10,000 for a ONE-TIME on-air broadcast of the film? Doesn't it make sense that if Life was going to offer that hugh amount, they'd want ALL rights?
@pajasa62 It's strange that if were an entirely commercial transaction Life would not make any effort to monetize the value of the film. The reason given is because they wer so sensitive to Jackie and all that. Abe Z son. had no such problems. He supported the restrictions but when he got it back for a dollar, then demanded millions for the rights. Classy family
Like children, the conspiracy theorists are forever in a state of asking question, but also like children when it comes time to find out the answer or implement their nonsense (under the banner of "theory")...well, they aren't too bright.
I'm not going to REANSWER questions I have already...face it , you didn't reply to me because you want to "save face" How can I blame you?
In these rambling posts below you did manage to being up two points which, unlike you, I'm not afraid to address.
(contd) the limousine is cleaned almost immediately as if no one thought it would be an important piece of forensic evidence! Then the Z film is suppressed for OVER a decade with no credible reason. When it's released, lone nutters would STILL have you believe a shot which thrusts Kennedy's back and to the left originated from the REAR RIGHT! I can't tell you the level of mental retardation required to swallow all of these absurd facts but I bet Pajas62 could!
(contd)...the closest exit but instead gradually leaves via the front door. Now the WC would have you believe 1 bullet caused 7 injuries to 2 bodies and suspended itself in mid-air for nearly 2 SECS! But wait, that's not all folks! This same bullet remained in nearly PRISTINE condition! US Army test proved that to the WC but they chose to ignore its significance as did Pajas 62 and legions of other brainless buffoons. But wait that's not all!
(contd) ... being the MOST accurate. Neither the FBI's best sharp shooters nor USMC Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock (veteran sniper) or any of him men could reproduce Oswald's accuracy. THEN Oswald whisks himself to one side of the 6th floors stows the rifle then glides down 5 stories where he's not seen by anybody else on the staircase and calmly produces some change which he uses to purchase a coke ALL IN 90 secs or less. Then this reputed hothead does not run out...
I want to sum up some Pajas' theories as well as ANYONE who believes in the single shooter theory so we understand how ludicrious it is. Oswald had to have planned the assassination. Yet the WC puts him in the lunch room when he should have been in the sniper's nest but lucky for Oswald Kennedy was running late. So this "lone nut" decides to saunter up 6 stories, assemble his rifle, hope to God no one is up there in the 6th story with him, get off 3 shots in quick succession with the LAST one...
You're the one being his advocate here. You're the one saying he was only going to hand his gun off (the very day the President is passing by) because some (IMAGINARY) person wants to go hunting.
Why would someone THAT INNOCENT...of EVERYTHING need to suddenly lie to the police about something so serious...when after all they are INNOCENT?
And I guess you think he bolted out of the Depository to start the hunting trip...right?
Pretty comical for me to have someone think that a fruadulent bullet is found on a hospital stretcher, but when confronted, now dismisses it as irrelevant.
These so-called "theories" (and let's be honest, if Einstein spat out this crap he'd of been out of business in 5 minutes) they all sound entertaining and lurid when reading an authors words on the pages of a book or Kevin Costner doing a great acting job in "JFK"...but try to implement this nonsense and it lands in the tiolet.
8. Have a need for even PLANTING a bullet when any conspirator doing so could easily say "Hey look what I found!"
9. Not have a conspirator in place to take it from Tomlinson (who he and a Parkland director had to literally "shop it around" to find the right person to even accept it)
10. Have the person's whose rifle fired this "planted bullet" miraculously also wind up at the scene where a cop is killed.
@pajasa62 You need to regroup the old brain cells. This is sheer madness. Steal from the Paine garage? You mean instead of simply asking Oswald for the rifle to go hunting? (it's not as though he's going to suspect you'll kill the President). The bullet WAS in almost perfect condition there's no debating that so you can say it was "planted" or "fired" or whatever but your arguments are completely random. Seek medical help.
"...instead of simply asking Oswald for the rifle to go hunting"
SINCE WHEN...oh I get it since you just invented it at your keypad.
What did Oswald tell Frazier was in the package? - "curtain rods"
What did Oswald tell the Dallas cops and FBI? "I don't own a rifle"
What else? "I only brought my lunch to work"
YEAH, the VERY DAY the President is passing by his place of work, Oswald (with his history of subversive actions and words) just hands his gun off to some unknown person...PLEASE
@pajasa62 That's right it's a theory. YOU were the one asking HOW the rifle could have gotten to the 6th floor like it's SO INCREDIBLE. Yet my theory is the 1st thing off the top of my head and it's easily believable. Back to the drawing board for you. Did you ever think that they actually WERE CURTAIN RODS? It's been proven that a folded Carcano rifle could not fit under Oswald's arm as he carried it. And him lying to cops, typical Oswald look at his bio doesn't make him a murderer.
"my theory is the 1st thing off the top of my head "
NO KIDDING!
That's why any proof is not necessary. Any corruburations...who cares?...it's out of my imagaination.
Again you cite the a source that bites you. Wesley Frazier and Linnie May Randle stated repeatedly that they only glance at the package & had NO REASON to determine the specific length at that time.
"And him lying to cops, typical Oswald "
Typical Oswald? What a cop-out...stop back-peddaling you're embarassing yourself.
@pajasa62 The bottom line is all you have is this loose, uncorroborated circumstantial evidence. You have no witnesses putting him at that sniper's nest. You have nitrate tests confirming his innocence. You have amazing shooting by a weak shooter and FBI sharpshooters saying it's IMPOSSIBLE. You have Army tests saying the pristine bullet is impossible. I could go on forever. You are a nutter...a lone nutter.
@pajasa62 If you think the final headshot came from the rear you're an idiot plain and simple. If you think the US Army "messed up" their tests for the WC you are equally stupid. Either way, you're not worth arguing with.
They must be pretty easy to deal with...especially when you don't offer up a response or defend your position or accept that a bullet that's flat at it's base IS NOT pristine.
Your silence is as defeaning as your acoustic claims.
@pajasa62 How fucking stupid can you be? That TINY indentation at the base could be caused by shooting through a marshmallow. Why do you think it's called "THE PRISTINE BULLET" you fucking idiot. What's the matter with you?
"TINY indentation at the base could be caused by shooting through a marshmallow"
As stupid as that sounds you underscore the conspiracy theorist flight from reality by capitalizing the word "tiny"
The bullet is FLAT. What would caused a metal-jacketed bullet to be flat at its base on ONLY ONE SIDE? (Hint) Tumbling. (Another Hint) Connally had an elongated back wound.
But, NO, NO...the conspiracy theorist relies on the laughably, unthoughtout "bullet planted on a stretcher to frame Oswald".
@pajasa62 You know this is beyond ignorance it's pure fantasy. It's almost fascinating how someone can be so painfully ignorant. Again it's called the "pristine" bullet theory because the bullet is in nearly pristine condition. The flattened part is negligible and you're pretending like it's something. The bullet didn't just shatter connally's ribs, it shattered his wrist, went through Kennedy's back AND neck and Connally's torso AND left thigh. I'm fascinated by how someone can support this.
Check out the video, "1964 Wounds ballistics tests" - it's only 4 minutes in duration. If you can challenge that maybe you have something watch?v=qgzjW4gdMaQ
Laughable...you cite an ambigous test that doesn't account for all the variables (a tumbling bullet...that a metal-jacketed bullet can break bones by merely GRAZING them,...trajectory,...velocity) and then you cite the VERY SOURCE, THAT YOU THINK IS INVOLVED IN A CONSPIRACY!
Go apply that in real life and they'd put you in a mental institution my friend.
But what's the conspiracy theorist view?
My next post let's go over ONLY SOME of whats REQUIRED for this "planted bullet" crap.
@pajasa62 An ambigious test? You mean the US Army? And you believeTHEY were somehow "involved". Dude you are completely mental. Stay away from the Kennedy assassination for awhile.
Great! Then ask them why H.B. McClain was 170 feet where he needed to be to make their so-called "theory" work. Ask them why he wasn't in the location that THEY THEMSELVES said he had to be. Ask 'em why McClain himself said he wasn't their (corruburated by Marion Baker) & why the Robert Hughes films shows this INDISPUTABLY. Ask 'em why the crosstalk on Channel I destroys their claim. And then maybe ask them why similar spikes occur on other portions of the soundbelt up to many minutes after....
In my mind this study by the US army is a slam dunk because if the pristine bullet didn't do it we have, by definition, a conspiracy. The fact that the WC could simply dismiss it shows how ingenous they were. There are countless stories of witnesses who have complained that their testimony was either completely taken out of context or (in the case of Ann Mercer) completely made up! If you believe the WC you are seriously blind.
The bullet was not "pristine" as you keep referring -it was flat at it's base! Indicating it struck a bone ONLY by tumbling.
You accept ANYBODY that profits from PAID (the key word) interviews!
How many of these "51 witnesses" saw a rifle or a gunman? ZERO....ZERO!!!!
Acoustic tests in Dealey Plaza proved the difficulty in IDing a shot from the TSBD because of it's unusual height and echoes created by a blast from a high-powered rifle.
@pajasa62 What are you talking about? The US ARMY are the people who were getting paid to tell lies, is THAT WHAT YOU"RE SAYING?
The "pristine" bullet is referred to as an approximation and the US Army's report has not been challenged. Get your facts straight.
And please don't talk to me about acoustic studies when I have been working with both D B Thomas and Jim Barger (the original acoustic physicist who testified before the HSCA committee). I know ALOT more about this than you.
"pristine" bullet is referred to as an approximation"
CLASSIC. This is standard for the conspiracy theorist..."pristine" SUDDENLY doesn't mean "pristine"
And that's all you have to do with these people...challenge them and MAYBE you can get something of a sober answer from one of them (usually by accident). Then you realize how they live in a world where "half-pregnant" and "50% married" are taken as facts.
@pajasa62 These are the kind of idiots you have to deal with, the "lone nutters". Notice how he focuses on whether the word Pristine is actually "pristine" instead of , duh, the ARMY REPORT. You don't have an ounce of sincerity, sir.
The conspiracy and the cover-up were two different things. The conspiracy only had to (and could of) involved two people. The resulting cover-up by the government didn't really have anything to do with the conspiracy, but was put in place to prevent a nuclear war. I believe the assassination may have been set up to force a war.
No-one seems to have thought of an unlikely but possible 'two loner' non conspiracy. Oswald fired from the Depository; but at the same time ANOTHER lone nut independently decided to take a crack at Kennedy - and fired from the knoll. Don't say it's not possible, because it is. It would have been a logical place for someone without access to a Plaza building to make an attempt - and the best spot on the ground level for a gunman to have any real chance of fleeing afterwards.
Projectflashlihgt: No. many people have considered that. The biggest problem is the precise coincidence of timing. An optimal Book Depository shot would have been just before the tight lefthand turn onto Elm. Much more likely are 2 or more semi-independant shooter teams coordinated by an overall planner, timed for precise overlap to increase chances of success. I suspect a team in the Daltex bldg along with Grassy Knoll fence. I don't think Oswald was a trigger puller, prob knew almost nothing.
"An optimal Book Depository shot would have been just before the tight lefthand turn onto Elm"
WHY? To have 8 or so Secret Servive men in the followup car staring face to face with you while shooting? To give yourself the sharpest angle to shoot at where you have to expose as much of your body out the window as possible? To be so close it's as difficult as possible to "scope" the target?
85% of earwitnesses heard 3 or less shots, a measly 15% "heard" 4 or more.
By the way, you really don't know the story of the FBI agent who was physically beaten by the SS when he showed up at Parkland. He is the agent who actually portrayed Connalyyin the FBI recreations. This is all news to you and you think I am making this up?
So tell me. You want to have a shooting without gunmen. You want to have a conspiracy without plotters...no problem. You don't have to include them in your list ( how's that for an offer?). you don't have to include plotters or shooters!...tell me, how many people do you think it took to pull off this conspiracy?
When someone is exonerated of a crime, you don't ask that they prove who really did it before they are freed. I don't think the case against Oswald has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but their are many reputations at stake in convincing the public he is guilty.
You can't answer it because for you to do so in a reasonable, honest way makes everything you say collapse. This is always the case with conspiracy theorists...ALWAYS. Ask them to give a number of conspiracy to support THEIR viewpoint...silence, because then they realize (if they know about the history of this event and all the minutia involved) that it takes too many silent criminals, too many people that merely "went along" with the capital offense of treason to pull it off.
I don't think everyone who aided the conspiracy or coverup did so knowingly. Like yourself, I don't think you are knowingly an accessory after the fact to the coverup. You probably sincerely believe the lone assassin theory and resent anyone who questions it. You are no CDDraftsman but I can't imagine anyone actually paying you for all these rants. So there's an example for you.
pajasa: Like every conspiracy, there is compartmentalization reducing knowledge of details to those who absolutely MUST know. In the JFK assassination, all the key SS agents, Dallas Police officials, FBI agents & Parkland doctors directing & managing information & limiting investigation might have involved less than a dozen people. A ready rationale for going-along with lone-assassin conclusion could have been as simple as preventing nuclear war with USSR. Besides those personally benefitting.
"(conspiracy) might have involved less than a dozen people. "
WHAT?...the Warren Commission, its Counsel, Staff & Laison total 35 PEOPLE (about 3 TIMES the number you gave!) this doesn't even include their support staff, the tons of agents that conducted 25,000 interviews or 100's of researchers that worked on 3,000 pieces of evidence. THIS IS JUST THE INVESTIGATION TEAM.
Tthis isn't even the minutia of this event (eg. Ruby - telephone company, stripper needing $, Western Union employee)
@pajasa62 Why would you count the WC, it's staff, agents, etc. as part of the conspiracy? Do you think they all had a hand in the assassination? Covering up something to calm public fears is alot different than murdering a President. Trying to stay away from conspiracy because it's highly unstable doesn't mean they were "in on it".
Because they investigated the assassination and had the evidence. Do you think everyone would INDEPENDENT from each other, ignore and coverup a plot? Or "casually" all do so?
You're trying to oversimpilify the event!
IMAGINE if they had evidence contrary to their final report...you don't think that involves a conspiracy to coverup?
When you take the actual HISTORY of this event, it does not add up to a conspiracy...PERIOD.
All you get are these "theorists" WANTING to believe in one.
@pajasa62 Well gee the HSCA found them "negligent" of considering conspiracy theories. Your reasoning is childish. Your over-dramatizing what happened. Everyone gets their marching orders from the top. Anybody going against that is simply marginalized or their work isn't taken seriously. Nobody has to be "reprimanded" or "kept in line". How many of the 51 witnesses who reported shots from the knoll is actually IN the wc report? Why? The US Army did test after test (contd)
@Pablofilmmaker The US army did test after test to see if a "pristine" bullet is possible. They fired hundreds of shots into the wrist of cadavers, goats' ribs, buckets of water, etc. NOT ONE of those bullets suffered less damage than CE 399 and that's ONE impact point vs. 7. Their conclusion was that a pristine bullet is "IMPOSSIBLE". The WC found their results "INCONCLUSIVE". Did they go anywhere else? NOPE.
How's the conspiracy list coming? Still clinging to "less than a dozen"? when the Warren Commission alone would have been 3 TIMES that amount?
I'm sorry, but it's obvious from the sheer history of the event...a conspiracy and a coverup for this particular event would simply be too large to construct, lest alone remain intact.
Bullshit, fragments in Gov. Connally matched the bullet. PERIOD.
And don't cherrypick an ambigous sentence from (of all places for a conspiracy theorist) the Warren Commission. Tomlinson was not stationed staring at stretchers. He admitted he had "no particular reason to pay attention" as to which IDENTICAL stretcher was which BEFORE he found the bullet and "I knew it was off of the elevator" (where Connally was taken to surgery )(CBS-TV June 1967)
"Who among the doctors and nurses saw the bullet roll out of Connally's leg like you claim or imagine?"
As usual, more unthoughtout nonsense.
It is LAUGHABLE for you to assume that the surgeons that closed his leg wound, the attending physicians, the nurses, John and Nellie Connally themselves could merely "go along" with treason. Do you seriously think that Connally DID NOT have a leg wound from a bullet that barely penetrated? Seriously?
I watched alot of stuff on the assassination of jfk....a few documentaries prove oswald was the loan gun man, and a few prove he wasn't.......I really don't know what to believe....but i do know that when something like this happens its hard for people to believe that just one man can do it especially the way it was done, to many lose ends to tie..just like 911 it opens up the possibilities for conspiracy
cologero1 1 week ago
i dont understand how visiting dealy changed your mind...the opposite happens to most people....as far as shreds of evidence.......there are mountains of evidence with witness testimony......start with the parkland doctors who were the first to see kennedy..... "shot in temple, throat wound was an entrance"
migo53333 4 months ago
You people are fucking nuts, Dealey Plaza was the worst place to have multiple gunman, the motorcade passed through blocks and blocks of high rise buildings, thousands of windows, to think anyone would choose an open area like dealey plaza to kill Kennedy is ridiculous, get over it morons, one man killed Kennedy, but everyone has to believe it WAS something bigger. Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.
svanderson78 5 months ago
@svanderson78 you should check out "evidence of revision " it most likely will change your mind....
migo53333 4 months ago
@migo53333 I've been to the knoll, surprisingly, most of the CTers have not, I was a conspiracy believer in the beginning, but after 48 years, and not a shred of evidence, or anyone else that did it, I had to be realistic, it is actually quite embarrassing to believe it was a conspiracy, the evidence and I mean the hard physical evidence is just to powerful to ignore.
svanderson78 4 months ago
@svanderson78 Ponder this for a moment, why would anyone, in this case 2 guys stand behind the fence on top of the grassy knoll (as witnessed by lee bowers) peering out at the motorcade to see the prez.......sorry, but wouldnt you be out near the curb, where no one else was standing and get the best view.......no u would rather peer over the fence 30 feet away.....hmmm now lets add lee bowers testimony about seeing a commotion of some kind like smoke and a flash of light or something... (cont)
migo53333 1 month ago
@svanderson78 (Continued from below) .....and then the biker cop ( I think his name was Hargis) rides his bike up the knoll pulls his pistol and confronts these two guys and they pull out ss credentials........that smells......then you have sam hollland and the rr workers who all heard a blast from the knoll fence...they ran around to the parking lot and found behind the fence between a parked car and the stockade fence footprints in the mud and up on the bumper., so they could see over the fenc
migo53333 1 month ago
@svanderson78 why were there men standing behind the fence on the knoll.....
migo53333 1 month ago
@svanderson78 your a nut..there was more than 1 gunmen..Oswald shot 3 times and missed twice and that fatal shot came from the grassy knoll whether you like it or not..oswald couldn't have shot him in the side of his head...anyway Jesus knows EVERYTHING and I will ask him in Heaven
cwc27 1 month ago
@grassyknollkiller every comment I read of yours you claim to know something I will say this I agree with you about LHO. But I'm curious to hear what you know!! As a matter of fact all of us here in New Orleans would love to hear your story. I'm best friends with Vincent Marcello's son he is named after his uncle Carlos so do tell us!!!!!!!
pearlofprice 5 months ago
@animefareast stay a cartoon because you are retarded!!!! LHO DID NOT kill JFK!!!!! IDIOT also it will be 48 years in November!! You can't even fucking count asshole
pearlofprice 5 months ago
James is a liar.
ChristianHolloway7 6 months ago
curtain rods would be for rooming house room he was staying at. he visited marina at the house of a friend in irvington at the time. and based on the land lady at the rooming house he went back to after the tsbd there was curtain rods there already . btw the employee named jack daugherty (spelling might be off) saw oswald enter work that day and said under oath he didn't recall oswald holding the package the WC tries to put the riffle in and have him carry in.
blindjfk 7 months ago
Why on earth would Oswald bring curtain rods to his job when they were for his house where he had just come from?
landis444 7 months ago
BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IwshIcldstrtover 7 months ago
everyone look its Mason!
cislas89 9 months ago
fucken stupidity. These conspiracy ideas have been going on for 50 years now and all of them have been debunked. Oswald was the only shooter that day.
animefareast 10 months ago
@animefareast the time will come when you will be very ashamed of this comment you made as LHO had no part in the killing of your president the only true president the USA ever had all presidents ever since are all puppets for the secret war government. your time will come that i a sure of.
cruisersism 6 months ago
awful good with a handgun--from that distance a head shot--right--he's lying
iceaxe56 11 months ago
Where can I buy this DVD?
robstones1968 11 months ago
wow that's graphic. so sad :(
Iloverandykorton 1 year ago
even if there was more then one shooter the rest of the shooters were killed right after the shooting after they got out of the united states and their brith certificate were destroyed and just all the flies on them that had proof that they were alive so that no one could spread or know the names of the killers and what they did in their lives so they could just keep it at the one shooter theroy.
sk8rking1234 1 year ago
Could do wth a president like this.
Im so certain his assasination has something to do with the Cuban Crisis..
xxprincessxxpopcornx 1 year ago
@grettoz Do you know who did the job? I do and it wasn't Oswald cause that bastard missed and it's good they killed him too.
TheGrassyknollkiller 1 year ago
Why has there been no official investigation of the E. Howard Hunt confession that he headed up a CIA organized assassination of Kennedy which was carried out at the behest of Lyndon Johnson, who saw it as his only way of being President of the United States?
mc0558 1 year ago
@mc0558 Because that is not what he "confessed" to. He "confessed" to being approached to participate in a Kennedy assassination plot. Hunt said he turned them down, as if one could actually do that and continue breathing. Hunt named people he believed were involved, most notably Cord Meyer, and claimed LBJ was behind it, but he didn't actually confess to anything as he claimed he was not part of the plot. Hunt's confession is a lot of BS. Not saying there wasn't a plot, but Hunt was a liar.
ricktorres1970 10 months ago
Where can I find this entire film?
sdavenport1981 1 year ago
The Grassy Knoll: Illuminate agents further cover up JFK murder
jamesgnbastar23 1 year ago
@pajasa62 Life magazine published 31 frames none of which showed the fatal head shot and violent head snap. You could not see the film as an actual motion picture well in to 1970's..
TrueNovice 2 years ago
Look my friend, that problem lies with LIFE MAGAZINE and TIME-LIFE, INC. Why do you think Zapruder needed a lawyer to execute the deal? (besides from shoving money into his pocket). Last I checked, a magazine can't run motion pictures in it's pages.
When Garrison subpoenaed Life magazine (no, not a Federal Agency) for the film he made copies and started touring colleges with it.
Missed what I said below about viewing the film in the National Archives???
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Life bought the rights to still pictures, they then went back to Mr. Z and got the full rights, locked up in the vault so it could not be shown. The frames were also published in the WC Heaing and Exhibits, but they reversed the frames of the fatal head shot. And of course there was no way of knowing until the bootleg copies started coming out from the Garrison office. Garrison however never toured with the film.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
Pardon my lean editing...it was Mark Lane that toured colleges with the film after Garrison made pirated copies of the film.
pajasa62 2 years ago
Nothing personal, but your chasing your tail talking like you are making some point trying to turn it into something sinister.
Less than an hour after Kennedy was pronounced dead, Zapruder is at WFAA-TV being interviewed live. LESS THAN 1 HOUR after! He's there to get the film processed. Jay Watson tells him & the viewing audience, "we'll get it processed & out as soon as possible". WFAA didn't have an 8mm processor, but is it conceivable to you that if they did they'd try to air the film THEN?
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Sure nothing sinister. How could anyone think such a thing. Didn't Danny Boy Rather go on TV and lie about what the Zapruder film showed? Claimed that JFK was forced violently forward by the force of the shot. Of course no one could say different since the public didn't see it on TV until 1975
TrueNovice 2 years ago
If you are going to say something...SAY IT!
Do you think Dan Rather is involved with the conspiracy of a coverup to murder the President? When do you think he "got onboard" with the plot? Was he so lured by..."Hey in 17-1/2 years you'll take over for Walter Cronkite"???
Why don't you try to implement your statements instead of just spitting them out.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Listen genius, you said the film was not suppressed even though for all practical purposes, you couldn't even get a clear copy of the film or see it as a motion picture. And Dan Rather, one of the few reporters who saw it said JFK was forced forward by the force of the shot. What's your opinion, you think he made a simple mistake? Or is it just another one those mysterious coincidences you lone nutters are so fond of?
TrueNovice 2 years ago
TrueNovice
So are you saying that Dan Rather (still very much alive today) is part of the conspiracy to coverup JFK's assassination?
So why don't you or the other conspiracy theorist throughout the country (how about Mark Lane, also alive and kicking today) do something about him?
AGAIN I ask : "when did he join the plot?"...."was waiting 17-1/2 years to replace Walter Cronkite, so irresistible to him that he joined the plot...(a capitol offense)?"
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Dan Rather part of a conspiracy? Everything is a conspiracy with you. What is your problem? History provides no incentive Rather or Jennings or these other so called "journalists" to be consistent, truthful, or even curious. They will just parrot whatever the government tells them to.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Also, tell us your spin on the US Supreme court case where a guy made charcoal drawings of the Zapruder film frames, published them in a book. Then Time actually tied his book up in litigation for 12 years and almost bankrupted his small publisher. How could anyone think the Zapruder film was suppressed .
TrueNovice 2 years ago
AND WHAT??? these "charcoal drawings" revealed the real murderers of JFK?
And I understand if you just are innocently unaware of facts...that's fine.
Go watch the PBS "Oswald's Ghost" (2008) which is commercially released, and they show a CBS reporter in 1966 (yeah, 1966!) at the National Archives viewing the Zapruder film...then they have a young Josiah Thompson later saying "I saw the film at the National Archives"
OK?!?!?!?!
People could view it....PERIOD!
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Thompson was a Haverford U professor who also worked as a Criminal defense investigator. He was hired by TIME and had access to clear copies of the Z film. That was pretty good editing, by Bob Stone. First they show a CBS reporter who claimed to see the film and then they cut to Thompson. whose point was that film in the archives was a of poor quality than the copy Time had. So of course gullible viewers like yourself got the impression that the film was widely available in 1966.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
Your so emasulated on this subject it's embarrassing.
Your doing this pathetic back-peddal and are just hoping to save face.
Just pray nobody scrolls down and reads your "The Zapruder film was suppressed!" garbage.
NOW when confronted with irrefutable facts you go..."Oh, the film wasn't widely available"
It's pathetic.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 You have illusions of grandeur. and anyone can see through your deceptions and lies.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
@pajasa62 The point was they wouldn't even allow the public to see charcoal drawings of the Zapruder film of the JFK's assassination. But you claim it was not suppressed and widely available.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
"The point was they wouldn't allow the public to see the charcoal drawings"
How ignorant on this subject can you be?
Life Magazine stripped the cover of Roger Staubach and the contents of a magazine ALREADY PRINTED and published 31 FRAMES of the Zapruder film in it's very next weekly issue (11/29/63).
Why do you keep leaving yourself so wide open to being consistently wrong all the time?
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Life magazine did not call attention to the head snap as Josiah Thompson did. In fact they didn't even mention it.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
Yet another back-peddal.
You start yapping about some "charcoal drawings" as some kind of proof of a conspiracy (I don't care if they drew the pictures with barbeque sauce)...so just IGNORE what I wrote.
You yap that Dan Rather was part of the conspiracy to coverup the assassination. I ask you to implement this idea,(chronologically, beneficially)...you IGNORE it.
Sure your going to ignore what makes your fragmented ideas fall apart.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 That's crazy after all if they could have just developed the film they would have shown that night on TV. Somehow it didn't happenc cause it was impossible to develop a commercially available 8mm film. Would have could have should have. Just another one of those amazing coincidences.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
Again, the simple reality...Zapruder was at WFAA-TV studio less than an hour after JFK was pronounced dead...trying to get the film process. WFAA did not have an on-site 8mm processor. Zapruder then went to a Kodak lab where there was one...what the hell is stumping you on that?
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Was the film shown of WFAA-TV shortly after it was developed? Yes or No?
TrueNovice 2 years ago
Typical.
Just IGNORE that he was in WFAA-TV studio less than an hour after JFK was pronounced dead.
Just IGNORE that he was there to get the film processed.
Just IGNORE what Jay Watson tells the viewing audience.
Just IGNORE that they did not have an on-site 8mm process.
Just IGNORE that Zapruder took the camera and film to a Kodak lab to be developed.
Then PRETEND he was PRE-DESTINED to show it on TV.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Most that is irrelevant. You ignore the FACT that the Zapruder film of the assassination was not shown on TV until 1975. Who are you trying to kid? Of course it was suppressed.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
"Most that is irrelevant."
Sure your going to say it's irrelevant!
For you to deal with it seriously would make you realize that you have no argument. That these fragmented ideas of your don't stand up to reality.
You say: "Of course it was suppressed"
I point out (as shown irrefutably in 1966 on PBS "Oswald's Ghost', 2008) that people could go to the National Archives and view the film through an 8mm viewer.
What do you say? You give this laughable back-peddal.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 The charcoal drawings were made ad the behest of Prof Josiah Thompson. The book showing the drawing was in 12 years of litigation. So how many people, made an appointment and went to the National Archives to view frames of the Z film? That was the only way to see it and your saying it was not supresed from public viewing? Ridiculous.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
@pajasa62 , These fables about how the film would have been shown, if they were able to develop it, are just old wives tales. Totally irrelevant and the fact is that Dan Rather claimed to have seen the Zapruder film and said JFK was forced forward by a shot from the rear, there was no mistake about that said Danny boy That's how you get ahead, by lying and deceiving. So your future is bright.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
@pajasa62 You suggest that everything like this is related to a massive conspiracy, I certainly never wrote that, but maybe your just listening to the voices in your head or have some kind of agenda you follow.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
So what then is your point through all this if you are NOT saying it is a conspiracy?
You are playing defense here pal.
You make accusations all over the place then when you have a mountain of reality to climb, you act coy and yap, "I never said that"
Maybe you should remove all your previous posts and make it look good my friend.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 All I said was Dan Rather went on national TV after viewing the Zapruder film when no one could see it and reassured the public that it showed JFK was forced forward by the force of the shot from the rear. I missed the retraction by Dan or CBS. You say that was okay cause you could make an appointment to see the film in the National archive, this means it was not suppressed or Dan was part of "conspiracy."
TrueNovice 2 years ago
@pajasa62
You must have me mixed up with someone else. maybe someone who has some respect for your nutty reasoning. Tell me did Dan Rather lie or was it just another one of those mistakes like reversing the fatal head shot frames in the Warren Commision exhibits so JFK head actually does seem to go violently forward. Maybe that's what Dan saw.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
You step into your own crap with each statement.
So you think Dan Rather lied? Why do you think he would lie? You think he lied because you think he was involved in a conspiracy but you are AFRAID to commit to it...he's still alive, but you have ZERO proof of anything other than someone witnessing a single viewing of something traumatic and trying to describe it. You can retreat, act coy...whatever, but if you think Dan Rather LIED FOR A REASON ....then SAY THE REASON WHY - don't wimp out.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 You are getting hysterical. The clip of Dan Rather saying JFK was forced violently forward by the force of the shot is in the film "Oswald's Ghost" which you cite. Maybe they ran the film backwards on Dan and he didn't notice. I have no way of knowing if Dan lied or not but his statement certainly is not true. I don't jump to conclusions, that's the job, you've assigned yourself. You are very good at it. I'm more of a Joe Friday "just the facts " type.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
"I'm more of a Joe Friday "just the facts " type"
That's good!
Then you must be taking an objective approach to the gun ownerships, the ballistic results for both JFK & Tippet, the autopsy report & professional analysis of it's photos & x-rays. Oswalds flight from TSBD. The 6 people from different walks of life at the Tippet scene voluntarily going to ID him in a lineup...his actions in the theatre. And before the assassination, Oswald's history of subversive actions & spoken/ written words.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 The objective fact that in 1963 it was not possible to buy ammunition for the WWII Italian Carbine rifle. The fact that HSCA medical panel thought the discrepancies between the wound locations in the official autopsy report and the autopsy photos were so severe they discussed exhuming JFK's body in 1978. The fact that the DOD autopsy camera produced by the DOD did not match the autopsy photos. Rather than explaining the so-called evidence, it is ignored in its entirety.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
"The objective fact that in 1963 it was not possible to buy ammunition for the WWII Italian Carbine rifle."
WOW!
Your 'I'm Joe Friday, Just The Facts, kind of guy" lasted for 1 day.
Look at the Klein Sporting Goods ad, nowhere on it does it say that the Mannlicher-Carcano is a souvenir or novelty item nor is the ammunition for it obsolete...just the opposite. With some minor digging, Joe Friday should come up with the Western-Cartridge Company manufacturing that particular ammo in 1963.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 I guess you are well awre of it anyway, but the fact is they found no other Carcano ammunition on Oswald's person or his known possessions. In addition, the FBI did an exhaustive investigation contacting every gun an sporting shop within hundreds of miles of Oz known locations. Only one gun shop even sold it and had a full consortment of it as back stock. They had sold it to no on. So where did Oz get the ammunition for the WWII Italian relic. Those are the facts.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
Stop the nonsense, OK?
You throw around "Objective fact" followed by "in 1963 it was not possible to buy ammunition..." and then retreat into a gray area when what you say is proven incorrect.
You then preclude the purchase of the ammunition being bought another way (despite the rifle and the handgun being ordered by mail) and of course every company, regardless of its size or state its from, or type of purchase must have a microfilmed record of every transaction...if not, Oswald is excused.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Okay so you concede there is no evidence whatsoever that Oswald purchased ammunition for the Carcano. So the dubious theory is he only fired 3 bullet sleft a live round in the Carcano,but did not fully load the carbine clip. NONE of the Ammo was in his pocket or maong his known possessions.You ridicule the FBI investigation that included hundreds of agents visiting every gun store Oswald could have possible visited.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
Oswald ownership of the Mannlicher-Carcano - IGNORE
Oswald ownership of the Tippet handgun - IGNORE
Oswald goes to work with a long package with its wrapping found at the 6th flr. nest - IGNORE
Oswald only one not to return to TSBD - IGNORE
Oswald's rifle missing from Paine's garage when cops come -IGNORE
6 people ID Oswald at the Tippet scene -IGNORE
Oswald denies even owning a rifle -IGNORE
Marina knows all about the Gen. Walker attempt -IGNORE
No microfilm of a transaction....YEAAAH!!
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 The bullet taken out of Tippit don't match Oswald's revolver, there is no reason to believe it was used to kill Tippitt, besides your imagination.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
"the bullet taken out of Tippit don't match Oswald's revolver, there's no reason to believe it was used to kill Tippet, besides your imagination"
ANOTHER CLASSIC!
Oswald's revolver was a British 38 caliber that used compatible "38 Special" bullets!
ANY 38 Special fired in that weapon would produce the same ballistic results.
The shells recovered by Benevides & the Davis sisters match the class characteristic of the bullets with the shells matching "TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHERS"
pajasa62 2 years ago 2
@pajasa62 It's not clear whether that is the reason they didn't match. But you agree the bullets taken out of Tippit didn't match his revolver. The officers who supposedly were given the shell casings didn't keep a proper chain of custody. And as you know Officer Poe refused to identify them as the ones he handled.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
Again, that was a dumb statement my friend.
NO "38 SPECIAL" BULLETS could be ID'd properly to that gun...PERIOD!...It was a British 38 revolver using compatible bullets....Just ignore the shells matching "to the exclusion of all other weapons"...Why ignore it?...you have to.
Why ignore Oswald pulling that vey gun on Officer MacDonald in the theatre?...you have to.
pajasa62 2 years ago 2
@pajasa62 No one is ignoring the shells, just pointing out the delay of several months- the fact that they seemed to have gotten lost. They do match Oswald's handgun but it's not clear whether they were the same ones found at the scene. Perhaps thats why the brands of the bullets taken out of Tippit don't identically match the shell casings.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Much of the "evidence"you cite just indicates Oswald was the victim of a sophisticated frameup. It seems to follwo the pattern outlined in the "Operation Northwoods" proposal where innocent people with left wing associations would be blamed for terrorist attacks within the United State. The documents are on-line at National Security Archives George Washington University.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
"Oswald was the victim of a sophisticated frameup"
So sophisticated it hinged on him-
Going to the Paine house unannounced for the first time, bringing a long package to work, PRAY that Oswald isn't watching the motorcade with other workers to give him an alibi, PRAY he flies out of the TSBD, PRAY he goes to the Tippit scene, then get lucky that he pulls the gun that's linked to the Tippit murder on another cop in the theatre, PRAY that 6 people voluntarily go to the police station to ID him.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Lee went to the Paine house to make up with his wife. Nothing really suspicious about that. Lee left work early and went to the movies. He left work early from his other jobs, so again I think you make too much of his usual behavior
TrueNovice 2 years ago
The President of the United States has just been shot outside his place of work...Oswald has a long history of being a subversive...Michael Paine said Oswald would complain that he could only talk about politics with him...his rifle is in the building...and within a quick 4 minutes after the shots he flees the building...DO THE MATH pal...these are all facts.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Did Mike Paine ever talk to Oz about working for a Nazi war criminal who beat the war crime rap at Nurremberg. Or how his family started the Trotskyite party in the US. Or maybe he could explain how an avowed peace loving Quaker is working with Bell helicopter creating death machines. Or how the ACLU won't get Oz a lawyer and then, how he and the wife mislead Oz. He and his wife are not really what they purport to be. Question everything the Paine's say and why they says it.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Oz "flees" the building by taking the bus?
TrueNovice 2 years ago
@TrueNovice Oswald had a known history for being a loafer on the job. But on 11/22/63, he didn't leave early to catch a double feature. He left because he knew that he was in trouble. I don't think he knew the full weight of blame would fall on him, at least not at first, but he knew he had to hightail it out of there, lest he get caught. Personally, I think he knew that he would be implicated somehow, but he didn't know he was the fallguy. Not til he was arrested.
ricktorres1970 10 months ago
@pajasa62 The ganbang ID of Lee by the witnesses -mostly of them together in the same room viewing the lineup is a major problem with the so-called identifications. There were even people in the room who were not even witnesses. It's a major problem with the line-up and is enough to throw them out in every US court today. So the id's hold much water.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
6 people from different walks of life voluntarily go to the police station and ID him in a lineup on 11/22 and 11/23...just the FACTS...Joe Friday...just the facts.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Even that day Oswald was mistaken for others, and others were mistaken for Oswald. The bus driver identified Oswald until he thought was Oswald got on the bus the next day while Lee was in custody. Billy Nolan Lovelady, at the TSBD was mistaken for Oswald's, And witnesses swear Oz was with them watching the motorcade. We now know that Oz said he was briefly outside according to the Fritz notes (release in the 1990's) before he went back in.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
@TrueNovice Oswald has been mistaken for a lot of people, and vice versa, but there is no one who claims that Oswald was watching the motorcade with them. Nor should there be. Oswald was on the second floor drinking a coke, likely waiting for a call from his handler, George DeMohrenschildt.
ricktorres1970 10 months ago
Look at the different people at the Tippet scene...look where they were positioned...see how they all merge to where the shots where fire AND CORRUBURATED the events, but NOOO! the conspiracy theorists just by chance had a man, "out of breathe and scared" (according to Johnny Brewer...whom you also must despise) casually going to the movies.(and pull a gun!)
Why the need to defend Oswald? Is it because he's a lefty and you are too? Or is it so entertaining to play "devil's advocate"?
pajasa62 2 years ago 2
@pajasa62 The Tippit murder seems to have happened earlier than OZ could have walked to the scene, Helen Markham is blocks away from her regular bus when it happens. An to get extra time, the WR suggests the bus would have waited for her. Putting "witnesses" in the same room to view a lineup is a disaster, it contaminates the identification so badly it would be thrown out today. Witnesses want to help the police and if even one says he looks like the guy, the others will agree to it.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Curtis (Larry) Crafard worked for Ruby and he was mistaken Oswald, A marine sharpshooter, some of the rifle range witnesess though he was the man impersonating Oswald. Others were convinced it was in fact Oswald, but Oz's actual whereabouts are supposedly accounted for. Crafard actually did flee on the day of the Tippit/JFK murder and his behavior was so suspicious WC counsel Griffin was still asking the HSCA to look into it during their half assed "investigation."
TrueNovice 2 years ago
@pajasa62 The 2 people who claimed to have seen the rifle/curtain rod package said it was a foot too short to hold it. And the story may have been fabricated since Frazier was a suspect in the case. He may have been encouraged to come up with the story. Frazier sister told the FBI in her first interview, that she saw no such package.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
Wesley Frazier stated repeatedly that he HAD NO REASON at the time to to assess the length of the package, that he had only glanced at it, "Oswald never lied to me before, so I had no reason to doubt him that they were curtain rods"
Simple reality.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 If Frazier (and his sister) is a foot off in estimate of the length, maybe Frazier was completely wrong about seeing the package at all? But that's the only one who claimed to see it. Alternately we now know that curtain rods were found in the book depository and dusted for prints. A fact which the WR either did not know or lied about it.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
@TrueNovice No curtain rods were ever found. If only they were. But they weren't. I believe Oswald brought his rifle to the Book Depository. But he was likely told to do so for some other, false, reason. What they really wanted was to set him up, and Oswald foolishly obliged.
ricktorres1970 10 months ago
@pajasa62 He obviously didn't buy anything buy mail, since there would be record of that. like the purchase of the rifle itself. The bare minimum you need to prove Oswald was even a shooter was that he was able to get the ammo for a WWII Italian rifle all by his lonesome. That has not even been done 46 yrs later. Go back to your cartoons.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
TrueNovice says,
"It's an objective fact that in 1963 it was not possible to ammunition for a Mannlicher-Carcano"
Yep you are a TRUE NOVICE -
The Western Cartidge Company manufacured them, baby, the Klein ad doesn't say it is a non-functional weapon that uses obsolete ammo....
THEN you cite the FBI in one post as a great investigative agency all the while convinced that is corrupt and covering up that your precious Oswald is really innocent.
pajasa62 2 years ago 2
@pajasa62 I am aware of the ad. They were trying to sell the rifle and would not focus on it's limitation. Often FBI agents did an outstanding job, but their work was so compartmentalized, that when it indicated Oswald's innocence, their work was buried. The study of the laundry tags on the Tippit murder suspects jacket is another case in point. Not release until the late 1990's and clearly indicate the jacket did not belong to Oswald.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
"but their work was so compartmentalized"
Cop-out answer. Pure good cop/ bad cop nonsense wanting to pretend the "bad FBI" were approached by conspirators and the "good FBI" was missed by them.
To make any of your rudderless points to work, just do what I said below....IGNORE what doesn't work for your point of view - it is too steep of a mountain to climb.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 As far as I can tell, the FBI was as innocent as Oswald, and also did not knowingly play a roll in the coverup. The experience of FBI agents Sibert and O'Neill is a telling point. Agent O'Neill used to go the Assasination research stmposiums and verbally attack the audience claiming the WCR was the truth. However when he was asked substantive question of his own experience he came to believe that he and Sibert were victims of the WC counsel Specter and others.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Again, where was it even possible for Oswald to buy ammunition in the Dallas. New Orleans area. What did he do with the resrof the box of ammo? None was found on his person or known possesions. Where did Oz practise. FBI agents went to rifle ranges and went through thousands of scrap metal, copper shell casing hoping to find one that would fit the Carcano and came up with not one. So again widely available? Maybe if Oz was a soldier in Mussolinis infantry. Otherwise no.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
"It's an objective fact that in 1963 it was not possible to ammunition for a Mannlicher-Carcano"
You could go to Mars and they'd understand what you were trying to say...
You just go into a gray area ("Hey where did John Wilkes Booth buy his bullet?")
& just because someone didn't keep a receipt from New Orleans to Mexico City and/or any place it could be mailed to someone that couldn't even give a landlady his real name (with a different alias on him when arrested), you ignore everything.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 You are exactly right pajasa62- why would a magazine buy the motion picture rights to the film and then not allow it to be shown? I think your becoming full blown CTr
TrueNovice 2 years ago
So are you blaming Zapruder for selling it to Life Magazine? or are you equating Life Magazine to nothing more than, say, "Sports Illustrated"? Do you know that Zapruder had AP, UPI & other media organizations at his door telling him not to sell until they could make an offer? That CBS through Dan Rather had just received authorization to offer him $10,000 for a ONE-TIME on-air broadcast of the film? Doesn't it make sense that if Life was going to offer that hugh amount, they'd want ALL rights?
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 It's strange that if were an entirely commercial transaction Life would not make any effort to monetize the value of the film. The reason given is because they wer so sensitive to Jackie and all that. Abe Z son. had no such problems. He supported the restrictions but when he got it back for a dollar, then demanded millions for the rights. Classy family
TrueNovice 2 years ago
Like children, the conspiracy theorists are forever in a state of asking question, but also like children when it comes time to find out the answer or implement their nonsense (under the banner of "theory")...well, they aren't too bright.
I'm not going to REANSWER questions I have already...face it , you didn't reply to me because you want to "save face" How can I blame you?
In these rambling posts below you did manage to being up two points which, unlike you, I'm not afraid to address.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Where is Jimmy Hoffa. Could you tell us?
TrueNovice 2 years ago
@TrueNovice He runs a Dallas Fried chicken shop in Harlseden with Budd Dwer.
IXIGaryIXI 2 years ago
@IXIGaryIXI So how is the chicken? Is it finger licking good?
TrueNovice 2 years ago
@TrueNovice it's the mutts nuts mate....hahaha
IXIGaryIXI 2 years ago
@IXIGaryIXI Did Budd Dwyer eve rget hat head wound fixed?
TrueNovice 2 years ago
@TrueNovice, yeah......he plugged the hole with a sage and onion sausage and packed it out with some coleslaw and bbq beans....hahaha
IXIGaryIXI 2 years ago
@IXIGaryIXI So I guess you could say old Bud Dwyer is meat head again.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
(contd) the limousine is cleaned almost immediately as if no one thought it would be an important piece of forensic evidence! Then the Z film is suppressed for OVER a decade with no credible reason. When it's released, lone nutters would STILL have you believe a shot which thrusts Kennedy's back and to the left originated from the REAR RIGHT! I can't tell you the level of mental retardation required to swallow all of these absurd facts but I bet Pajas62 could!
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
(contd)...the closest exit but instead gradually leaves via the front door. Now the WC would have you believe 1 bullet caused 7 injuries to 2 bodies and suspended itself in mid-air for nearly 2 SECS! But wait, that's not all folks! This same bullet remained in nearly PRISTINE condition! US Army test proved that to the WC but they chose to ignore its significance as did Pajas 62 and legions of other brainless buffoons. But wait that's not all!
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
(contd) ... being the MOST accurate. Neither the FBI's best sharp shooters nor USMC Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock (veteran sniper) or any of him men could reproduce Oswald's accuracy. THEN Oswald whisks himself to one side of the 6th floors stows the rifle then glides down 5 stories where he's not seen by anybody else on the staircase and calmly produces some change which he uses to purchase a coke ALL IN 90 secs or less. Then this reputed hothead does not run out...
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
I want to sum up some Pajas' theories as well as ANYONE who believes in the single shooter theory so we understand how ludicrious it is. Oswald had to have planned the assassination. Yet the WC puts him in the lunch room when he should have been in the sniper's nest but lucky for Oswald Kennedy was running late. So this "lone nut" decides to saunter up 6 stories, assemble his rifle, hope to God no one is up there in the 6th story with him, get off 3 shots in quick succession with the LAST one...
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
So Oswald lying to the cops is "typical"?
Care to explain this?
You're the one being his advocate here. You're the one saying he was only going to hand his gun off (the very day the President is passing by) because some (IMAGINARY) person wants to go hunting.
Why would someone THAT INNOCENT...of EVERYTHING need to suddenly lie to the police about something so serious...when after all they are INNOCENT?
And I guess you think he bolted out of the Depository to start the hunting trip...right?
pajasa62 2 years ago
Pretty comical for me to have someone think that a fruadulent bullet is found on a hospital stretcher, but when confronted, now dismisses it as irrelevant.
These so-called "theories" (and let's be honest, if Einstein spat out this crap he'd of been out of business in 5 minutes) they all sound entertaining and lurid when reading an authors words on the pages of a book or Kevin Costner doing a great acting job in "JFK"...but try to implement this nonsense and it lands in the tiolet.
pajasa62 2 years ago
Step 1. Steal the rifle out of the Paine garage and fire it.
2. Oswald goes to Paine's unannounced for the 1st time, brings a long package to work...just by coincidence.
3. Pray Oswald isn't watching the motorcade with coworkers.
4. Have various teams of Drs & nurses in place to cooperate (forever) in any event.
5. Calculate BEFOREHAND Connally will have a slight thigh wound.
6. Calculate BEFOREHAND to leave the bullet on a stretcher of an UNINTENDED VICTIM!
7. Not plant it in the LIMO.
pajasa62 2 years ago
8. Have a need for even PLANTING a bullet when any conspirator doing so could easily say "Hey look what I found!"
9. Not have a conspirator in place to take it from Tomlinson (who he and a Parkland director had to literally "shop it around" to find the right person to even accept it)
10. Have the person's whose rifle fired this "planted bullet" miraculously also wind up at the scene where a cop is killed.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 You need to regroup the old brain cells. This is sheer madness. Steal from the Paine garage? You mean instead of simply asking Oswald for the rifle to go hunting? (it's not as though he's going to suspect you'll kill the President). The bullet WAS in almost perfect condition there's no debating that so you can say it was "planted" or "fired" or whatever but your arguments are completely random. Seek medical help.
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
"...instead of simply asking Oswald for the rifle to go hunting"
SINCE WHEN...oh I get it since you just invented it at your keypad.
What did Oswald tell Frazier was in the package? - "curtain rods"
What did Oswald tell the Dallas cops and FBI? "I don't own a rifle"
What else? "I only brought my lunch to work"
YEAH, the VERY DAY the President is passing by his place of work, Oswald (with his history of subversive actions and words) just hands his gun off to some unknown person...PLEASE
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 That's right it's a theory. YOU were the one asking HOW the rifle could have gotten to the 6th floor like it's SO INCREDIBLE. Yet my theory is the 1st thing off the top of my head and it's easily believable. Back to the drawing board for you. Did you ever think that they actually WERE CURTAIN RODS? It's been proven that a folded Carcano rifle could not fit under Oswald's arm as he carried it. And him lying to cops, typical Oswald look at his bio doesn't make him a murderer.
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
"my theory is the 1st thing off the top of my head "
NO KIDDING!
That's why any proof is not necessary. Any corruburations...who cares?...it's out of my imagaination.
Again you cite the a source that bites you. Wesley Frazier and Linnie May Randle stated repeatedly that they only glance at the package & had NO REASON to determine the specific length at that time.
"And him lying to cops, typical Oswald "
Typical Oswald? What a cop-out...stop back-peddaling you're embarassing yourself.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 The bottom line is all you have is this loose, uncorroborated circumstantial evidence. You have no witnesses putting him at that sniper's nest. You have nitrate tests confirming his innocence. You have amazing shooting by a weak shooter and FBI sharpshooters saying it's IMPOSSIBLE. You have Army tests saying the pristine bullet is impossible. I could go on forever. You are a nutter...a lone nutter.
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
And what do the conspiracy theorist have?
UNKOWN PLOTTERS with an UNKOWN MOTIVE using UNSEEN GUNMEN shooting UNSEEN RIFLES that fire UNRECOVERED BULLETS.
AGAIN you're repeatedly WRONG
-Oswald reached the level of sharpshooter.
-That FBI sharpshooters comment is a downright lie.
- CBS showed the shots were very doable and even EXCEEDED the time and accuracy.
- the bullet was FLAT at it's base.
-that statement about nitrate tests is STUPID and only found in conspiracy books.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 If you think the final headshot came from the rear you're an idiot plain and simple. If you think the US Army "messed up" their tests for the WC you are equally stupid. Either way, you're not worth arguing with.
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
At the 1:08 it looks like John Kerry`s twin.
openedup09 2 years ago
They must be pretty easy to deal with...especially when you don't offer up a response or defend your position or accept that a bullet that's flat at it's base IS NOT pristine.
Your silence is as defeaning as your acoustic claims.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 How fucking stupid can you be? That TINY indentation at the base could be caused by shooting through a marshmallow. Why do you think it's called "THE PRISTINE BULLET" you fucking idiot. What's the matter with you?
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
"TINY indentation at the base could be caused by shooting through a marshmallow"
As stupid as that sounds you underscore the conspiracy theorist flight from reality by capitalizing the word "tiny"
The bullet is FLAT. What would caused a metal-jacketed bullet to be flat at its base on ONLY ONE SIDE? (Hint) Tumbling. (Another Hint) Connally had an elongated back wound.
But, NO, NO...the conspiracy theorist relies on the laughably, unthoughtout "bullet planted on a stretcher to frame Oswald".
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 You know this is beyond ignorance it's pure fantasy. It's almost fascinating how someone can be so painfully ignorant. Again it's called the "pristine" bullet theory because the bullet is in nearly pristine condition. The flattened part is negligible and you're pretending like it's something. The bullet didn't just shatter connally's ribs, it shattered his wrist, went through Kennedy's back AND neck and Connally's torso AND left thigh. I'm fascinated by how someone can support this.
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Ok, let's settle this once and for all.
Check out the video, "1964 Wounds ballistics tests" - it's only 4 minutes in duration. If you can challenge that maybe you have something watch?v=qgzjW4gdMaQ
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
Laughable...you cite an ambigous test that doesn't account for all the variables (a tumbling bullet...that a metal-jacketed bullet can break bones by merely GRAZING them,...trajectory,...velocity) and then you cite the VERY SOURCE, THAT YOU THINK IS INVOLVED IN A CONSPIRACY!
Go apply that in real life and they'd put you in a mental institution my friend.
But what's the conspiracy theorist view?
My next post let's go over ONLY SOME of whats REQUIRED for this "planted bullet" crap.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 An ambigious test? You mean the US Army? And you believeTHEY were somehow "involved". Dude you are completely mental. Stay away from the Kennedy assassination for awhile.
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
Great! Then ask them why H.B. McClain was 170 feet where he needed to be to make their so-called "theory" work. Ask them why he wasn't in the location that THEY THEMSELVES said he had to be. Ask 'em why McClain himself said he wasn't their (corruburated by Marion Baker) & why the Robert Hughes films shows this INDISPUTABLY. Ask 'em why the crosstalk on Channel I destroys their claim. And then maybe ask them why similar spikes occur on other portions of the soundbelt up to many minutes after....
pajasa62 2 years ago
In my mind this study by the US army is a slam dunk because if the pristine bullet didn't do it we have, by definition, a conspiracy. The fact that the WC could simply dismiss it shows how ingenous they were. There are countless stories of witnesses who have complained that their testimony was either completely taken out of context or (in the case of Ann Mercer) completely made up! If you believe the WC you are seriously blind.
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
Your posts are filled with so many flaws!
The bullet was not "pristine" as you keep referring -it was flat at it's base! Indicating it struck a bone ONLY by tumbling.
You accept ANYBODY that profits from PAID (the key word) interviews!
How many of these "51 witnesses" saw a rifle or a gunman? ZERO....ZERO!!!!
Acoustic tests in Dealey Plaza proved the difficulty in IDing a shot from the TSBD because of it's unusual height and echoes created by a blast from a high-powered rifle.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 What are you talking about? The US ARMY are the people who were getting paid to tell lies, is THAT WHAT YOU"RE SAYING?
The "pristine" bullet is referred to as an approximation and the US Army's report has not been challenged. Get your facts straight.
And please don't talk to me about acoustic studies when I have been working with both D B Thomas and Jim Barger (the original acoustic physicist who testified before the HSCA committee). I know ALOT more about this than you.
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
"pristine" bullet is referred to as an approximation"
CLASSIC. This is standard for the conspiracy theorist..."pristine" SUDDENLY doesn't mean "pristine"
And that's all you have to do with these people...challenge them and MAYBE you can get something of a sober answer from one of them (usually by accident). Then you realize how they live in a world where "half-pregnant" and "50% married" are taken as facts.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 These are the kind of idiots you have to deal with, the "lone nutters". Notice how he focuses on whether the word Pristine is actually "pristine" instead of , duh, the ARMY REPORT. You don't have an ounce of sincerity, sir.
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
The conspiracy and the cover-up were two different things. The conspiracy only had to (and could of) involved two people. The resulting cover-up by the government didn't really have anything to do with the conspiracy, but was put in place to prevent a nuclear war. I believe the assassination may have been set up to force a war.
bellowl 2 years ago
No-one seems to have thought of an unlikely but possible 'two loner' non conspiracy. Oswald fired from the Depository; but at the same time ANOTHER lone nut independently decided to take a crack at Kennedy - and fired from the knoll. Don't say it's not possible, because it is. It would have been a logical place for someone without access to a Plaza building to make an attempt - and the best spot on the ground level for a gunman to have any real chance of fleeing afterwards.
ProjectFlashlight612 2 years ago
Projectflashlihgt: No. many people have considered that. The biggest problem is the precise coincidence of timing. An optimal Book Depository shot would have been just before the tight lefthand turn onto Elm. Much more likely are 2 or more semi-independant shooter teams coordinated by an overall planner, timed for precise overlap to increase chances of success. I suspect a team in the Daltex bldg along with Grassy Knoll fence. I don't think Oswald was a trigger puller, prob knew almost nothing.
starmanskye 2 years ago
"An optimal Book Depository shot would have been just before the tight lefthand turn onto Elm"
WHY? To have 8 or so Secret Servive men in the followup car staring face to face with you while shooting? To give yourself the sharpest angle to shoot at where you have to expose as much of your body out the window as possible? To be so close it's as difficult as possible to "scope" the target?
85% of earwitnesses heard 3 or less shots, a measly 15% "heard" 4 or more.
& the shots sounded alike
pajasa62 2 years ago
By the way, you really don't know the story of the FBI agent who was physically beaten by the SS when he showed up at Parkland. He is the agent who actually portrayed Connalyyin the FBI recreations. This is all news to you and you think I am making this up?
TrueNovice 2 years ago
So tell me. You want to have a shooting without gunmen. You want to have a conspiracy without plotters...no problem. You don't have to include them in your list ( how's that for an offer?). you don't have to include plotters or shooters!...tell me, how many people do you think it took to pull off this conspiracy?
pajasa62 2 years ago
When someone is exonerated of a crime, you don't ask that they prove who really did it before they are freed. I don't think the case against Oswald has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but their are many reputations at stake in convincing the public he is guilty.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
You can't answer it because for you to do so in a reasonable, honest way makes everything you say collapse. This is always the case with conspiracy theorists...ALWAYS. Ask them to give a number of conspiracy to support THEIR viewpoint...silence, because then they realize (if they know about the history of this event and all the minutia involved) that it takes too many silent criminals, too many people that merely "went along" with the capital offense of treason to pull it off.
pajasa62 2 years ago 3
Okay. all right, you win. Give me a couple of days and I will identify JFK's killers and bring them to justice.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
I don't think everyone who aided the conspiracy or coverup did so knowingly. Like yourself, I don't think you are knowingly an accessory after the fact to the coverup. You probably sincerely believe the lone assassin theory and resent anyone who questions it. You are no CDDraftsman but I can't imagine anyone actually paying you for all these rants. So there's an example for you.
TrueNovice 2 years ago
pajasa: Like every conspiracy, there is compartmentalization reducing knowledge of details to those who absolutely MUST know. In the JFK assassination, all the key SS agents, Dallas Police officials, FBI agents & Parkland doctors directing & managing information & limiting investigation might have involved less than a dozen people. A ready rationale for going-along with lone-assassin conclusion could have been as simple as preventing nuclear war with USSR. Besides those personally benefitting.
starmanskye 2 years ago
"(conspiracy) might have involved less than a dozen people. "
WHAT?...the Warren Commission, its Counsel, Staff & Laison total 35 PEOPLE (about 3 TIMES the number you gave!) this doesn't even include their support staff, the tons of agents that conducted 25,000 interviews or 100's of researchers that worked on 3,000 pieces of evidence. THIS IS JUST THE INVESTIGATION TEAM.
Tthis isn't even the minutia of this event (eg. Ruby - telephone company, stripper needing $, Western Union employee)
pajasa62 2 years ago 2
@pajasa62 Why would you count the WC, it's staff, agents, etc. as part of the conspiracy? Do you think they all had a hand in the assassination? Covering up something to calm public fears is alot different than murdering a President. Trying to stay away from conspiracy because it's highly unstable doesn't mean they were "in on it".
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
Because they investigated the assassination and had the evidence. Do you think everyone would INDEPENDENT from each other, ignore and coverup a plot? Or "casually" all do so?
You're trying to oversimpilify the event!
IMAGINE if they had evidence contrary to their final report...you don't think that involves a conspiracy to coverup?
When you take the actual HISTORY of this event, it does not add up to a conspiracy...PERIOD.
All you get are these "theorists" WANTING to believe in one.
pajasa62 2 years ago
@pajasa62 Well gee the HSCA found them "negligent" of considering conspiracy theories. Your reasoning is childish. Your over-dramatizing what happened. Everyone gets their marching orders from the top. Anybody going against that is simply marginalized or their work isn't taken seriously. Nobody has to be "reprimanded" or "kept in line". How many of the 51 witnesses who reported shots from the knoll is actually IN the wc report? Why? The US Army did test after test (contd)
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
@Pablofilmmaker The US army did test after test to see if a "pristine" bullet is possible. They fired hundreds of shots into the wrist of cadavers, goats' ribs, buckets of water, etc. NOT ONE of those bullets suffered less damage than CE 399 and that's ONE impact point vs. 7. Their conclusion was that a pristine bullet is "IMPOSSIBLE". The WC found their results "INCONCLUSIVE". Did they go anywhere else? NOPE.
Pablofilmmaker 2 years ago
How's the conspiracy list coming? Still clinging to "less than a dozen"? when the Warren Commission alone would have been 3 TIMES that amount?
I'm sorry, but it's obvious from the sheer history of the event...a conspiracy and a coverup for this particular event would simply be too large to construct, lest alone remain intact.
pajasa62 2 years ago
Bullshit, fragments in Gov. Connally matched the bullet. PERIOD.
And don't cherrypick an ambigous sentence from (of all places for a conspiracy theorist) the Warren Commission. Tomlinson was not stationed staring at stretchers. He admitted he had "no particular reason to pay attention" as to which IDENTICAL stretcher was which BEFORE he found the bullet and "I knew it was off of the elevator" (where Connally was taken to surgery )(CBS-TV June 1967)
pajasa62 2 years ago
Okay so the witness who found it doesn't support your theory, and you have nothing else to support it, besides the conclusion that Oswald did it?
TrueNovice 2 years ago
"Okay so the witness who found it doesn't support your theory, and you have nothing else to support it, besides the conclusion that Oswald did it? "
WHO and WHAT?
pajasa62 2 years ago
Who among the doctors and nurses saw the bullet roll out of Connally's leg like you claim or imagine?
TrueNovice 2 years ago
"Who among the doctors and nurses saw the bullet roll out of Connally's leg like you claim or imagine?"
As usual, more unthoughtout nonsense.
It is LAUGHABLE for you to assume that the surgeons that closed his leg wound, the attending physicians, the nurses, John and Nellie Connally themselves could merely "go along" with treason. Do you seriously think that Connally DID NOT have a leg wound from a bullet that barely penetrated? Seriously?
Tell me how were these plotters calculate this?
pajasa62 2 years ago
So the bullet