Those triggers wasn't even ok when used only like an insurance, because they sidestepped regulations that you need for insurances. Like that the insurence company need some capital behind it so they are actually able to pay out when the shit hits the fan.
Usury and unrestricted speculation rewards avarice and not industry.
Time to get some laws to bring them back into line, and investing in actual industry instead of pie in the sky dirivitives that benefit only themselves.
"Theodore Roosevelt IV (born November 27, 1942), is a managing director in the senior client coverage group of Barclays.... Roosevelt is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, the Economic Club of New York, the Foreign Policy Association and the Korea Society based in New York. Roosevelt is also a prominent conservationist and environmentalist.[1] He is married to Constance Lane Rogers (born 1942), and their son is Theodore Roosevelt V."
Our leaders are tight with the bankers, unless we get away from this two-party system of government and the banking/corporate lobbying that assaults DC daily, nothing will change. Just look at the last dozen presidents and look who was their treasury secretary and other important financial positions within the administrations. It's all private BANKERS! I don't know when this all started, but it has to end now. If the Obama whitehouse teaches us one thing, it is that both parties have failed us.
Asked the simple question; is it fraud? I say, "If this is not fraud then nothing is fraud. Everything has a gray area. Playing that gray area, in my opinion, is simply a risk. However, since it affects so many people i.e. global economic collapse, this type of risk should not be allowed.
Any risk that contains the possibility of global economic collapse should be written off. What's the rush with capitalism?"
Even the rational right wingers, people who are morally and fiscally conservative, have been so bombarded by anti-Obama propaganda that it would be difficult to come to an agreement based strictly on facts. The right wing noise machine is extremely effective in shaping information. It has made rational discussion and compromise nearly impossible.
The problem is that the Rightwing source of life support is massive amounts of money. And the money buys ways of getting more money. The only way to destroy them is to cut off their supply of money, but this will only get them to put more money into resisting.
"Whenever I go down to Washington and meet with the SEC and complain to them that the industry is either over regulated or the burdens are too great they all start to roll their eyes, just like all of our children do when we talk about the good old days."
US insurance regulations prevent taking out insurance on interests a party does not hold an interest in. Apparently this did not apply to financial instrument insurance. Even if it did there are no prosecutors in the US who will go after Wallstreet. Our "bailout" of AIG explicitly prevented AIG from challenging the validity of the insurance it issued. Bottom line, even though a huge number of Americans understand what is happening we are apparently powerless to stop it.
Yeah may circumvent the ban on insurance policies by retaining a small interest in the underlying securities. Lawyers have gotten very sneaky since the 1970s.
Sounds like Cenk needs to turn into Alex Jones! Yell and tell people what these monsters are doing.. you think an outcome to any of this is worth you yelling and tellign people? uh? is it?
yeah awesome awesome anyone surprised ? anyone not almost expect thsi kind of thing? will the ny times be so kind to as report when it is we stop taking this kind of white collar super elite corruption anymore?
@dbullet this isn't technically a "finance" issue, it's larger than that and I am a tenured professor of macroeconomics so I've "studied finance"...please address which of his (granted reductive) points you feel are misleading and then explain why.
1) Tranching: packaging bad loans into products is the whole point of creidit derivatives and is not misleading. That is why they securitize them in the first place.
2) Hedging: NOT hedging would involve the bank taking a prop position... and you don't like that, right?
3) Chinese Wall: typically, the people "selling" (client traders) and the people making decisions to short/long certain products on the bank's account are not allowed to communicate, and are often on different floors.
Lal. Technical definitions. Screw that. String them up. Whats wrong with you people? Hunt them down and terminate their asses. Bankers are not humans, they don't have feelings like you and I. They are a sub-race. Thats how I feel when I am drunk atleast. xD
You can turn back to barter an apple pie for a ride, but you'd waste a lot of time to find someone willing to exchange everything you need for the specialty you offers.
Even if you offering apple pie, people wont take idk, 100 000 pie for a house?
Money is just a common currency to convert too and from.
Well, common currency... At one point, it is the people's choice; in certain country, at a certain time, you could buy a house with a truck load of cigarettes (yes I talk about Germany) or paper money with no value for the government (Iraqi Swiss Dinar).
But It is the first time I ear about apple pie in this debate... What next, some "sister fart"?
Sort off, and even in the present... You know, I still got "stupid" example: I could get some bus tickets in exchange for cigarettes... Bus tickets are also a form of currency, you exchange them for transport (pretty good service, sometime) so this is a city based fx market: just think about it for 110 seconds.
It's a facilitator, or the bank would be huge warehouse with pie section ! and cigarette container, farm for the animals ect..
Now, you can get paper that say 'this is worth 10 pie, 2 chicken or 2 hours of services' ..or simply "this is worth 1 dollars".. then you set price on all item and just exchange that papers..ie money
Its all about trust, trust that if you give me that paper, others will accept it to get what i want..
And contrary to some conspiracy theory, you don't need to have it backed by gold or silver (these are too volatile anyway). As long as the end result is 'I work X hours to get that paper so i can buy that thing that is worth the time I put in' so I don't need to find someone who BOTH want my service/goods AND offer what i need (or offer something that i must turn around and find a taker).
Well, yes and no. The problem with gold or silver is not that they are volatile like they are the use and application of gold and silver... This does include all the internet.
Also, a standard like that mean that monetary deflation/inflation is linked directly to the quantity of gold available.
Nah, I get the feeling that you just bunch many thing together.
Money is simple as that, not that complex.
Now what we can do with it, interest, foreign exchange, trade, loan, inflation,deflation etc .. its economics subject in their own, not 'money'. Or you'd get too many meaning for one word.
It's called shorting. They borrow stocks of other companies, sort of like leasing them at the valued price of the stock, and sell them to other buyers. If the stocks go up, they lose because when they buy them back, they have to pay not only the price they paid to lease the stock, but what the stock is now worth. If the stocks go down they win, because then they only pay to buy back what the stock is worth.
Shorts are sometimes insurance? Am I missing something here? Shorts are simply betting that a stock will drop within a short time frame - you only make money if it drops as far as you bet it would. It's gambling, not investing. It's betting on failure - which just encourages sabotage like the one Goldman Sachs pulled. It has absolutely no place in a legit investment market.
Shorting should be illegal. But then, half the stock process is rigged and should be illegal.
There is nothing wrong with shorts, The GiantRobot, and hedging within limited contexts in regard to commodities is legitimate.
That is not what is going here.
But if you are untutored it would take a long time to explain.
A short explanation of what Goldman Sachs did in their good quarter is this: they shorted the USD you gave them in the bailout, then paid back the bailout money with their profits.
Buffet is rumored to have made billions on the deal.
By this logic, if I defraud you it's your fault for not being savvy. If I break into your house and rob you, it's your fault too, since you know there are burglars in this world and should have bought a burglar alarm. And if I shoot you to death, it's your fault for not wearing a bullet proof vest or hiring body guards.
You are beginning to grasp the logic of the financial system, at least, TheGiantRobot. It hinges on the infinite expansion of debt credit internationally, and domestically is a version of Greater Fool Theory, with you--the US population at large--invariably elected as the fool.
From who does not know what hedging is or how it is shorting, that is quite stupid and arrogant, TheGiantRobot, and one reluctantly must confess to towering over such as you.
Of course, Mopsius, you know full well that I know what both shorting and hedging is. You pretend you are something great, on the side of humanity, but you are friend to no one.
Robot if you had any idea what you were talking about you wouldn't be talking about the fact you know it. Protip. Hedging is when you go from betting to playing zero sum. You bet on red and black, basically, and take the miniscule profit either way, which isn't so miniscule when you're using hundreds of millions. Shorting is borrowing a security at x price, paying "interest" to the lender, and all going well, later buying it cheaper off the market to return to the lender.
Shorting isn't really buying because you don't get to keep it. It's only technically buying because that's how they justify allowing it, and if you play the market you know that.
Interesting point by Cenk at the end - Obama may succeed in uniting the Right and Left wing citizens of this country - against Obama & his Treasury Department.
At present I'd guess that Obama will go down in history as presiding over the most corrupt administration since Warren Harding. Way to go, Mr. President!
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We need Sarah Palin as President for she will completely clean out all of the corruption out of DC with the SUPREME and ULTIMATE CLEANSING and PURIFYING POWER of GOD HERSELF! She will UNLEASH THE WRATH OF GOD HERSELF onto those politicians who are under the back-pocket of the corrupt banks and EXPOSE their PUSSIES for the WHOLE WORLD TO SEE! If the banks dare cross Palin, Palin will DESTROY that bank and EXPOSE the banker's CIRCUMCIZED PUSSIES just like Jesus destroyed the temple!
@ecwaufisxtreme ROTFL .. She is a corrupt moron not some kind of saint. I really hope they get her on the ticket. not because she might win but because she NEVER will.
Palin is more than a saint, she is GOD's CHOSEN ONE, GOD INCARNATE and the LIVING EMBODIMENT OF GOD HERSELF! She is SUPERIOR to all male saints for even they are also her DICKLESS and BALLESS BITCHES and PUSSIES!
Of course conservatives and liberals can come together on this issue. Both are getting screwed and both are headed for gangster-bankster serfdom. The major media is criminally neglectful for not hammering this story night and day. Thank you! Give us more, more and more on this until the sheep wake up and really appreciate they are being led to slaughter.
The Obama administration is part of the cover-up. If we can make that clear maybe they will begin to stop this fraud.
eeeeeehhh this is why people who haven't studied finance should not talk about it... so sad. I like most of his stories, but when he talks about banking I just want to slap my forehead.
I have studied finance and have a degree in economics, what part of this video resulted in a face palm?? Can you be more specific? It seems rather straight forward that you do not reward people for this kind of behavior let alone bring them into the government.
Hey... I answered your question in another thread. Please see hat. I have a degree in finance too (well about 2 more exams to go) and currently level 1 CFA, working at an investment bank assisting PE firms (do not deal in public markets). So I do have some familiarity with the subject matter.
He is simplifying many ideas and giving people an overall effect of what various institutions are doing.
I know you are happy with yourself cuz you just watched a cable show on economics or maybe even read a few books on it or perhaps even have a degree. Gratz. Good work.
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Unfortunately, though he is supposed to be a graduate of Wharton, cenk is a financial and economic naif.
He may think he is progressive, but his botched and partial approaches to many issues make the gist of his analysis--in terms of ultimate action or non-action--highly regressive.
I don't agree or disagree but that seems like a cut and dry summery conclusion. At best it can only be garnered from only what? 4,5 maybe a handful of short videos on such matters...
I think the overall case he is making is a political one rather than one of actionable policy. Irrespective of the specifics, he is asking are these the people that we want in the treasury?
I would make the argument that the author is being rather arrogant in his tone, without even understanding what these products are. In fact, I noticed he even has trouble pronouncing some of these things. Now, you don't see me starting a blog and trying to make an argument on whether or not Pluto should be called a Planet, right? I leave that task to people who are more familiar with the issue than I am.
I think it helped he was the same colour as the president for a lot of idiots. Van jones was a sort of 'Voodoo doll' Obama which they could attack more freely and ceremoniously sack and blame for everything.
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TYT are always so cynical ! We must put our trust in the bankers and our Government to get us out of this mess. And they WILL do because why...? Because they are AMERICANS and they stand for everything out flag stands for ! I can't believe that these people of power would do this to us, because they are voted in by us so will do the will of the people. Give them time! And God is always with us in these dark times too and i am sure he is keeping a watchful eye on things until he returns in 2012
If not, please, take some time to study politics/economics. Eg., in the current healthcare debate, GOP attacked at every instance almost every point of reform that was proposed by democrats, did not provide any alternatives, and when they had the watered-down bill on the floor (thanks to them and blue dog-conservative democrats), they all voted against it nonetheless. No bipartisanhip, no amendments, nothing but obstructionism, to get political points.
Thank god for book of revelationists...if God doesn't turn the world into a war riven barren hellscape, the people that believe in revelations will -_-
Don't make this a Dem. vs Repub. fight for healthcare. Both Parties never wanted real reform. Playing Russian roulet with no bullets. Laughable. Big show. And now it is a bill that gives the insurance monopolies more power to raise premiums and collect fees for providing no insurance at all. "Be careful of what you ask for--it might come true." But this is oppostite of what the American people were asking for. Sound familiar?
Progressive and liberal democrats wanted reform, but they alone didn't have enough votes to push it through (as they decided against using reconciliation).
Reform was opposed by the industry, and they used insane sums of money through lobbying to ensure that the conservatives would fight the bill.
However, GOP is doing *everything* to undermine President Obama, make him not able to keep his promises and thus lose the 2012 elections.
People who are put into a Public Office and that are in trusted with the American citizen's wealth and welfare should be punished more not less than someone else. When was the last time someone in Congress went to jail. Many of them are out and out crooks. Who will prosecute these high level criminals? No one. They do anything they want to. Our rights and now are corrrupting the US Constitution. One by one the crooks in Washington need to be criminally prosecuted. They fear nothing now.
There was that guy in alaska who got millions in illegal donations...one bribe was a wing to his mansion...he was caught...HARRY REID STOOD UP FOR HIM!!!!
You just did a story on how Madoff got the crap beat out of him in prison. Yet, Madoff affected far fewer people than these guys. And if you want to take it further, that black guy who's rotting in jail for robbing 50 bucks from some cash register...That's okay? That's justice? But we let the people who ruined the WORLD ECONOMY get off scott free? Not only that, but reward them?? I want to see a trial for these people. Find them and put them on trial. At LEAST!
Madoff deserved the beating he got, and then some.
These other guys ALSO deserve to be beaten.
I would LOVE to see the scenario you envision, and - and I use this phrase a lot - then some!
Look again at what Bill Maher said: 2 corrupt bankers every week, hanging from the stock exchange billboard with their balls in their mouth. As a message to the others.
This is scary! People lost everything (their, house, their liberty, their innocence, their jobs, etc) while these bankers made money from their mortgages and on top of that they got a bailout from the government. The bankers should go to jail, should lose their mansions, and give their money back to the PEOPLE! Death to Capitalism! When a robber steals 20 dollars, he or she goes to jail, but when a banker steals billions, he or she walks scot free. It is time to change. Wake up America!
Hey it's a capitalist country...that banker deserved ever last cent of the billions of dollars he got as a bonus thanks to the inisible hand of the free market...which has a rubber glove on and is up our collective asses searching for the last cent we've hidden in our asses.
Well we'd regain our economic standing in the world if we stand up to the invisible bully, hang a bunch of bankers for treason or mega ultra super grand larceny then we show that invisible bastard that we won't take his shit anymore.
But we have stockholm syndrome when it comes to Wall Street, they keep raping the country, but we're too afraid of them to do anything and some of us are enjoying the ****ing ...Republicans...duh.....
they actually do ask ex-bank robbers & ex-hackers to give a lot of input on the security of the back or computer system for the company that has hired them:)
The Chinese are getting US troops in Afghanistan now to protect their new copper mines there for free--suppose they would buy the whole US military for the right price, including the private contractors?
What is being discussed here isn't "placing a bet", as the host here terms it. It's called hedging, and it's usually done by buying sell(or put) options on the thing in case its underlying value collapses. What screwed the pooch was the ridiculous over-optimism of both the govt and mortgage industry about the default rate combined with silly incentives to promote home ownership to those who couldn't afford it.
If so, the people buying them didn't do their own due diligence on their purchase, and the credit agencies should be on the hook for massive civil liability. Still seems to me more a matter of incompetence than malice, as no one wants to make so much that the other fellow can't afford to cough it up. It collapses the whole system.
What you describe is what should the hedges be used for ..
But they didn't use it to protect their asset, they used it to bet, while making crappy securities. Why you think thay were pushing for giving morgage to anybody like NINJA (No Income, No Job / Asset)
Then the other investor bought those securities, with hedging insurance... and the mortgage's market drop, and the insurance got hit by huges claims and became insolvent.
Thus, insurer bankrupt, investing bank following .. domino effect.
Leverage, make a fortune or loose your shirt.. (and bush up the leverage from 12 to 30$ for each dollar in reserve)
Anyone who has a vested interest in watching the stock rise does not engange in a "Future Contract" against the stock, though that was the original intention, to allow for financial security in flucuating markets (specifically Agriculture). Today however its used by speculators to earn money based on their knowhow, and as a market starts to fall it suddenly becomes very popular. Causing the market to fall even more.
then nothing's gone happen...
still waiting on the zombie apokolypse
sirloin869 5 months ago
Those triggers wasn't even ok when used only like an insurance, because they sidestepped regulations that you need for insurances. Like that the insurence company need some capital behind it so they are actually able to pay out when the shit hits the fan.
AngeCord 1 year ago
Obama is as corrupt as the rest. Remember what the French did with their corrupt elite? Yep... that's the solution.
Elenkhos 2 years ago
As for the family, wasn't there a TR IV in the Porc?
Harmless looking fellow--but so was TR, wasn't he?
mopsius 2 years ago
The European Protestants were also eager to univresalize usury, which they envied and wished to dispossess from the Jews.
Indeed, the US general purpose debt credit currency is an eminently Protestant--specifically Calvinist--conception.
Monotheism, monoculture, monopoly, monolingualism, monomonetarism, and mononucleosis.
mopsius 2 years ago
Usury and unrestricted speculation rewards avarice and not industry.
Time to get some laws to bring them back into line, and investing in actual industry instead of pie in the sky dirivitives that benefit only themselves.
dangerouslytalented 2 years ago
Does the symbolic order enforce itself then? And in what space-time continuum, specifically, do you propose "to get some laws"?
mopsius 2 years ago
Same place they came from originally, before they were destroyed. The legislature and the courts.
dangerouslytalented 2 years ago
Ah, getting "laws" from eminently buyable legislatures and courts, dangerouslytalented?
Merci, mais pas de merci.
mopsius 2 years ago
It has happened twice before in America, and both times a Roosevelt was in charge.
Where has that family been this last 70 years?
dangerouslytalented 2 years ago
The Roosevets, HAHAHA.
Both warmongers, Fascists, and Imperialists.
Pass.
mopsius 2 years ago
The only significant question in regard to the Roosevelts is--which one was worse, TR or FDR, hahaha.
mopsius 2 years ago
What parade of genocide, incompetence, and hypocrisy US history has been from the beginning--and for the most part still is.
mopsius 2 years ago
@mopsius Yeah we're basically Rome.
HoLOLcaust 11 months ago
"Theodore Roosevelt IV (born November 27, 1942), is a managing director in the senior client coverage group of Barclays.... Roosevelt is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, the Economic Club of New York, the Foreign Policy Association and the Korea Society based in New York. Roosevelt is also a prominent conservationist and environmentalist.[1] He is married to Constance Lane Rogers (born 1942), and their son is Theodore Roosevelt V."
wiki
mopsius 2 years ago
Our leaders are tight with the bankers, unless we get away from this two-party system of government and the banking/corporate lobbying that assaults DC daily, nothing will change. Just look at the last dozen presidents and look who was their treasury secretary and other important financial positions within the administrations. It's all private BANKERS! I don't know when this all started, but it has to end now. If the Obama whitehouse teaches us one thing, it is that both parties have failed us.
TheUSMetalhead 2 years ago
Confucius say:No way in, no way out.
mopsius 2 years ago
Obama is a douche...The only change we have is a new face in the White House otherwise it's the same bullshit!
scorpionkings 2 years ago
i. hate. goldmansacks.
econchick 2 years ago 4
Asked the simple question; is it fraud? I say, "If this is not fraud then nothing is fraud. Everything has a gray area. Playing that gray area, in my opinion, is simply a risk. However, since it affects so many people i.e. global economic collapse, this type of risk should not be allowed.
Any risk that contains the possibility of global economic collapse should be written off. What's the rush with capitalism?"
whatevtube 2 years ago
Even the rational right wingers, people who are morally and fiscally conservative, have been so bombarded by anti-Obama propaganda that it would be difficult to come to an agreement based strictly on facts. The right wing noise machine is extremely effective in shaping information. It has made rational discussion and compromise nearly impossible.
doctender77 2 years ago
The Right Wing needs to be disconnected from life support.
They are too expensive.
mopsius 2 years ago
The problem is that the Rightwing source of life support is massive amounts of money. And the money buys ways of getting more money. The only way to destroy them is to cut off their supply of money, but this will only get them to put more money into resisting.
dangerouslytalented 2 years ago
"Whenever I go down to Washington and meet with the SEC and complain to them that the industry is either over regulated or the burdens are too great they all start to roll their eyes, just like all of our children do when we talk about the good old days."
Bernard Madoff
mopsius 2 years ago
"In today's regulatory environment, it's virtually impossible to violate rules."
Bernard Madoff
mopsius 2 years ago
Anthropologists have done intriguing work on "money"--much more pertinent to current events than it may seem at first sight.
mopsius 2 years ago
US insurance regulations prevent taking out insurance on interests a party does not hold an interest in. Apparently this did not apply to financial instrument insurance. Even if it did there are no prosecutors in the US who will go after Wallstreet. Our "bailout" of AIG explicitly prevented AIG from challenging the validity of the insurance it issued. Bottom line, even though a huge number of Americans understand what is happening we are apparently powerless to stop it.
needparalegal 2 years ago
Well, technically they would have been investment bonds of bundled insurance policies, they are very tricksy on how they create these schemes.
dangerouslytalented 2 years ago
Yeah may circumvent the ban on insurance policies by retaining a small interest in the underlying securities. Lawyers have gotten very sneaky since the 1970s.
needparalegal 2 years ago
Sounds like Cenk needs to turn into Alex Jones! Yell and tell people what these monsters are doing.. you think an outcome to any of this is worth you yelling and tellign people? uh? is it?
ViLLiSTa 2 years ago
yeah awesome awesome anyone surprised ? anyone not almost expect thsi kind of thing? will the ny times be so kind to as report when it is we stop taking this kind of white collar super elite corruption anymore?
narezul 2 years ago
why are tyt videos only showing 24 december
sshapewa 2 years ago
new years
Sneezlebob 2 years ago
cenk is probably right, But maybe they put a hig risk group together so they put the worst in one group incase they failed.
But betting on them failing is BS!
AllyKaht 2 years ago
Our whole government is BS, why should the SEC be any different?
needparalegal 2 years ago
@dbullet this isn't technically a "finance" issue, it's larger than that and I am a tenured professor of macroeconomics so I've "studied finance"...please address which of his (granted reductive) points you feel are misleading and then explain why.
Somehow I doubt I'll get an answer from you.
jasonjbell 2 years ago
1) Tranching: packaging bad loans into products is the whole point of creidit derivatives and is not misleading. That is why they securitize them in the first place.
2) Hedging: NOT hedging would involve the bank taking a prop position... and you don't like that, right?
3) Chinese Wall: typically, the people "selling" (client traders) and the people making decisions to short/long certain products on the bank's account are not allowed to communicate, and are often on different floors.
dbullet 1 year ago
Lal. Technical definitions. Screw that. String them up. Whats wrong with you people? Hunt them down and terminate their asses. Bankers are not humans, they don't have feelings like you and I. They are a sub-race. Thats how I feel when I am drunk atleast. xD
GnosticAtheist 2 years ago 6
money doesn't exist
akgregor 2 years ago
Money is just one of the inventions that makes civilization possible.
franksnow79 2 years ago
"Money is just one of the inventions that makes civilization possible".
Ambiguous.
Are you suggesting that there is no civilization with out "money", franksnow79, or something else?
mopsius 2 years ago
You can turn back to barter an apple pie for a ride, but you'd waste a lot of time to find someone willing to exchange everything you need for the specialty you offers.
Even if you offering apple pie, people wont take idk, 100 000 pie for a house?
Money is just a common currency to convert too and from.
moestietabarnak 2 years ago
Well, common currency... At one point, it is the people's choice; in certain country, at a certain time, you could buy a house with a truck load of cigarettes (yes I talk about Germany) or paper money with no value for the government (Iraqi Swiss Dinar).
But It is the first time I ear about apple pie in this debate... What next, some "sister fart"?
therrydicule 2 years ago
At that time, cigarettes would have been a defacto currency, as vodka and tulip bulbs and other things have been in the past.
dangerouslytalented 2 years ago
Sort off, and even in the present... You know, I still got "stupid" example: I could get some bus tickets in exchange for cigarettes... Bus tickets are also a form of currency, you exchange them for transport (pretty good service, sometime) so this is a city based fx market: just think about it for 110 seconds.
therrydicule 2 years ago
Really, moestiebarnak--is that what "money" is--"just a common currency to convert to and from"?
Even were that so, what does "money" have to do with "civilization", as in the quotation above?
Don't hurt your head now.
mopsius 2 years ago
It's a facilitator, or the bank would be huge warehouse with pie section ! and cigarette container, farm for the animals ect..
Now, you can get paper that say 'this is worth 10 pie, 2 chicken or 2 hours of services' ..or simply "this is worth 1 dollars".. then you set price on all item and just exchange that papers..ie money
moestietabarnak 2 years ago
Its all about trust, trust that if you give me that paper, others will accept it to get what i want..
And contrary to some conspiracy theory, you don't need to have it backed by gold or silver (these are too volatile anyway). As long as the end result is 'I work X hours to get that paper so i can buy that thing that is worth the time I put in' so I don't need to find someone who BOTH want my service/goods AND offer what i need (or offer something that i must turn around and find a taker).
moestietabarnak 2 years ago
You are correct, mestietabarnak, a true fiat currency does not necessitate any commodity backing it up.
On the other hand, USD is not a fiat currency--actually, it is not a currency at all, but a debt credit instrument used as a currency.
But this is only scratching the surface of "money", either generally, or in the US.
mopsius 2 years ago
Well, yes and no. The problem with gold or silver is not that they are volatile like they are the use and application of gold and silver... This does include all the internet.
Also, a standard like that mean that monetary deflation/inflation is linked directly to the quantity of gold available.
therrydicule 2 years ago
"Money" or what is used as currency, as a "facilitator" is the conventional story, but it is much more complex than that, even at its simplest.
The fact that this complexity has not been widely understood, even by leading economists, is part of the present catastrophe.
The financiers, on the contrary, don't much care what "money" is beyond how, whatever it is, it can be manipulated in their interest.
The last is key to the development of the Finance Capitalism stage, which the US is in now.
mopsius 2 years ago
Nah, I get the feeling that you just bunch many thing together.
Money is simple as that, not that complex.
Now what we can do with it, interest, foreign exchange, trade, loan, inflation,deflation etc .. its economics subject in their own, not 'money'. Or you'd get too many meaning for one word.
moestietabarnak 2 years ago
Whatever, mosetieabarnak. You must get a lot of these feelings, eh?
Do you feel your USD shrinking in your pocket?
Sweet dreams.
mopsius 2 years ago
heh, I don't have any.. I'm canadian
moestietabarnak 2 years ago
USD is shrinking, Canadian is expanding.
mopsius 2 years ago
Not really, Canadian dollars is kinda stable
..compared to other currency than USD, sure if you compare to a shrinking currency, it appear to growth but its mostly one-sided
Compared to euro, doesn't move much.
moestietabarnak 2 years ago
"You can smell the riches!".
Jeje.
mopsius 2 years ago
Very true. The Aussie dollar is about 25c up from 1yr ago against the greenback, but against everything else it's more or less stable.
It's not the Canadian (or Australian) dollar rising, it's just the US dollar falling.
The good news? American tourism will go up.
bersaba 2 years ago
Falling on purpose wtf.
whatevtube 2 years ago
Compare to the swiss frank, we are, most of the time, at 10% of 1 for 1.
therrydicule 2 years ago
Notice, moestietabarnak:
"give" (present tense)--"will accept" (future tense)
mopsius 2 years ago
"Its all about trust, trust that if you give me that paper, others will accept it to get what i want.."
moestieabarnak
Very droll.
mopsius 2 years ago
mmmm piebank, a bank you can trust.
dangerouslytalented 2 years ago
You can smell the riches!
moestietabarnak 2 years ago
@franksnow79
That is one of the dumbest things I have ever read on the net...
Santrielus 2 years ago
No doubt you'd prefer to revert to a barter or gift economy, and primitive tribalism as well.
franksnow79 2 years ago
I don't get it, banks do betting? Huh?
mj9collins 2 years ago
It's called shorting. They borrow stocks of other companies, sort of like leasing them at the valued price of the stock, and sell them to other buyers. If the stocks go up, they lose because when they buy them back, they have to pay not only the price they paid to lease the stock, but what the stock is now worth. If the stocks go down they win, because then they only pay to buy back what the stock is worth.
seanboy80 2 years ago
Shorts are sometimes insurance? Am I missing something here? Shorts are simply betting that a stock will drop within a short time frame - you only make money if it drops as far as you bet it would. It's gambling, not investing. It's betting on failure - which just encourages sabotage like the one Goldman Sachs pulled. It has absolutely no place in a legit investment market.
Shorting should be illegal. But then, half the stock process is rigged and should be illegal.
TheGiantRobot 2 years ago
There is nothing wrong with shorts, The GiantRobot, and hedging within limited contexts in regard to commodities is legitimate.
That is not what is going here.
But if you are untutored it would take a long time to explain.
A short explanation of what Goldman Sachs did in their good quarter is this: they shorted the USD you gave them in the bailout, then paid back the bailout money with their profits.
Buffet is rumored to have made billions on the deal.
mopsius 2 years ago
How is buying shorts hedging? You only get paid if the stock drops. If it holds or climbs, you lose your money.
TheGiantRobot 2 years ago
The problem in not hedging per se , the problem is what is being hedged and how by the Financial Capitalists.
mopsius 2 years ago
its fraud
pawqmasta00 2 years ago
Facts : 1. obama is not to blame. hes an american trying to make money in the capitalist system
Facts : 2. banks are not to blame. they are american institutions trying to make money.
Facts : 3. the peple are to blame. Apparently no one has heard of buyer beware.... if you're trusting and gullible, you pay the price.
cpufightclub 2 years ago
Well, if we follow your line of logic then that must mean you were against the government bailing out these banks, right?
andante24 2 years ago
It is called Finance Capitalism--the last monopolistic and imperialist stage of capitalism.
Lenin's description fits the US presently to a T.
It unfolded in various ways in Britain and Germany, as well as Austro-Hungary.
In Austro-Hungary the observant will note the role of privatization.
Particulars vary, naturally, and how the US financial and economic collapse will unfold from here is still undetermined in detail.
But it is collapsing and there will be no status quo ante.
mopsius 2 years ago
By this logic, if I defraud you it's your fault for not being savvy. If I break into your house and rob you, it's your fault too, since you know there are burglars in this world and should have bought a burglar alarm. And if I shoot you to death, it's your fault for not wearing a bullet proof vest or hiring body guards.
By the way, opinions are not facts.
TheGiantRobot 2 years ago
You are beginning to grasp the logic of the financial system, at least, TheGiantRobot. It hinges on the infinite expansion of debt credit internationally, and domestically is a version of Greater Fool Theory, with you--the US population at large--invariably elected as the fool.
mopsius 2 years ago
You know, Mopsius, we are not all so ignorant as you think, and you are not some grand intellect towering above us.
TheGiantRobot 2 years ago
From who does not know what hedging is or how it is shorting, that is quite stupid and arrogant, TheGiantRobot, and one reluctantly must confess to towering over such as you.
mopsius 2 years ago
Of course, Mopsius, you know full well that I know what both shorting and hedging is. You pretend you are something great, on the side of humanity, but you are friend to no one.
TheGiantRobot 2 years ago
You are an ignoramus, TheGiantRobot--and the worst kind--the kind that thinks he or she knows what he or she does not know.
mopsius 2 years ago
"How is buying shorts hedging? You only gt paid if the stock drops. If it holds or climbs, you lose your money".
The GiantRobot
The ignoramus unveiled.
QED
mopsius 2 years ago
At any rate, TheGiantRobot, mopsius will grace you with no more well-intentioned efforts to educate a fucking arrogant dumbass like yourself.
mopsius 2 years ago
Robot if you had any idea what you were talking about you wouldn't be talking about the fact you know it. Protip. Hedging is when you go from betting to playing zero sum. You bet on red and black, basically, and take the miniscule profit either way, which isn't so miniscule when you're using hundreds of millions. Shorting is borrowing a security at x price, paying "interest" to the lender, and all going well, later buying it cheaper off the market to return to the lender.
Deveiel 2 years ago
No shit that's what hedging is.
Shorting isn't really buying because you don't get to keep it. It's only technically buying because that's how they justify allowing it, and if you play the market you know that.
TheGiantRobot 2 years ago
Shorting is buying from your broker, selling into the market, and then buying off the market to return to the broker.
Also, you're fucking retarded. I think that's your mother calling you for dinner, captain 42 years old!
Deveiel 2 years ago
Dishonest answer and you know it.
TheGiantRobot 2 years ago
You really don't know what "the infinite expansion of debt credit" means in context, either--TheGiant
Robot. If you did, you would have a clear idea why real estate collapsed.
tootle doo.
mopsius 2 years ago
Ahhh Geithner, that gaping asshole pops up yet again.
SupremePenguinTone 2 years ago
Fuck Wall Street...And Fuck Obama
tommypickles09 2 years ago
thanks obama
treid100182 2 years ago
just watch the south park episode "margaritaville". it will teach you much.
ddean1987 2 years ago 2
Interesting point by Cenk at the end - Obama may succeed in uniting the Right and Left wing citizens of this country - against Obama & his Treasury Department.
At present I'd guess that Obama will go down in history as presiding over the most corrupt administration since Warren Harding. Way to go, Mr. President!
audadvnc 2 years ago 3
The Right Wing needs to be dsiconnectged from life support.
They are too expensive.
Hasta, mon enfant.
mopsius 2 years ago
Yeah, that joke stopped being funny after the last hundred times you've said it.
TheAntiV 2 years ago
It's not a joke, TheAntivV.
Sweet dreams.
mopsius 2 years ago
You're still not being funny.
TheAntiV 2 years ago
Have you ever read Goethe's Faust, AntiV?
mopsius 2 years ago
Relevancy?
TheAntiV 2 years ago
i watched this twice now and i concluded americans are idiots lol
robbed from the inside by jews and willingly donating to their state..
Could be me but someone is crazy here or they'r too scared to point the finger.
selfsenter 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
We need Sarah Palin as President for she will completely clean out all of the corruption out of DC with the SUPREME and ULTIMATE CLEANSING and PURIFYING POWER of GOD HERSELF! She will UNLEASH THE WRATH OF GOD HERSELF onto those politicians who are under the back-pocket of the corrupt banks and EXPOSE their PUSSIES for the WHOLE WORLD TO SEE! If the banks dare cross Palin, Palin will DESTROY that bank and EXPOSE the banker's CIRCUMCIZED PUSSIES just like Jesus destroyed the temple!
ecwaufisxtreme 2 years ago
@ecwaufisxtreme ROTFL .. She is a corrupt moron not some kind of saint. I really hope they get her on the ticket. not because she might win but because she NEVER will.
csharp44 2 years ago 3
Palin is more than a saint, she is GOD's CHOSEN ONE, GOD INCARNATE and the LIVING EMBODIMENT OF GOD HERSELF! She is SUPERIOR to all male saints for even they are also her DICKLESS and BALLESS BITCHES and PUSSIES!
ecwaufisxtreme 2 years ago
Joan of Arc--no doubt about it.
mopsius 2 years ago
@ecwaufisxtreme You are F-ed up
mtsdegreat 2 years ago 2
You are so funny. Keep up the good work because with people like you on her side it only makes my point. :) Keep up the good work, lol
csharp44 2 years ago
@ecwaufisxtreme
Sarah Palin would take a bank cock in the mouth, vag and ass. She'd sell out faster than the GOP to big business.
DDBOOGER 2 years ago 5
This is not a left versus right issue. This is a top versus bottom one.
bballadante 2 years ago 8
Of course conservatives and liberals can come together on this issue. Both are getting screwed and both are headed for gangster-bankster serfdom. The major media is criminally neglectful for not hammering this story night and day. Thank you! Give us more, more and more on this until the sheep wake up and really appreciate they are being led to slaughter.
The Obama administration is part of the cover-up. If we can make that clear maybe they will begin to stop this fraud.
oudaoua 2 years ago 3
Conservatives need to be liquidated, along with the rest of the Right Wing, including Neo-Cons, Born Agains, Corporate Fascists, and Paulistas.
Hasta, mon enfant.
mopsius 2 years ago 2
hahaha great video
4:12 is hilarious
EclecticSceptic 2 years ago
eeeeeehhh this is why people who haven't studied finance should not talk about it... so sad. I like most of his stories, but when he talks about banking I just want to slap my forehead.
dbullet 2 years ago
I have studied finance and have a degree in economics, what part of this video resulted in a face palm?? Can you be more specific? It seems rather straight forward that you do not reward people for this kind of behavior let alone bring them into the government.
rehtorbF03 2 years ago 2
Hey... I answered your question in another thread. Please see hat. I have a degree in finance too (well about 2 more exams to go) and currently level 1 CFA, working at an investment bank assisting PE firms (do not deal in public markets). So I do have some familiarity with the subject matter.
dbullet 1 year ago
He is simplifying many ideas and giving people an overall effect of what various institutions are doing.
I know you are happy with yourself cuz you just watched a cable show on economics or maybe even read a few books on it or perhaps even have a degree. Gratz. Good work.
Remain composed. No need to now get arrogant.
CmdrTobs 2 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Unfortunately, though he is supposed to be a graduate of Wharton, cenk is a financial and economic naif.
He may think he is progressive, but his botched and partial approaches to many issues make the gist of his analysis--in terms of ultimate action or non-action--highly regressive.
That is particularly true of this vid.
mopsius 2 years ago
Do you care to elaborate?
neons99 2 years ago
I don't agree or disagree but that seems like a cut and dry summery conclusion. At best it can only be garnered from only what? 4,5 maybe a handful of short videos on such matters...
I think the overall case he is making is a political one rather than one of actionable policy. Irrespective of the specifics, he is asking are these the people that we want in the treasury?
Probably not....
CmdrTobs 2 years ago
I would make the argument that the author is being rather arrogant in his tone, without even understanding what these products are. In fact, I noticed he even has trouble pronouncing some of these things. Now, you don't see me starting a blog and trying to make an argument on whether or not Pluto should be called a Planet, right? I leave that task to people who are more familiar with the issue than I am.
dbullet 1 year ago
heres a bi-partisan idea
Riverwidow64 2 years ago
How the fuck do you dump Van Jones, but keep a sleazebag asshole like Sachs?
dizzymasekela 2 years ago
Cause rush limbo said so.
I think it helped he was the same colour as the president for a lot of idiots. Van jones was a sort of 'Voodoo doll' Obama which they could attack more freely and ceremoniously sack and blame for everything.
CmdrTobs 2 years ago
January 2002 oil = $19 per barrel
August 2008 oil =$147 per barrel.
Ponder, my dear CmdrTobs.
Those with engineering experience often find economic systems a piece of cake when they are pointed in the right direction.
Consider Buckminister Fuller's little essay on Henry Ford, for example.
For all Fuller's structural and phsyical genius, however, his "empiric mathematical" theories are a bad joke.
mopsius 2 years ago
That is clearly to me, but I don't get it. Can you explain what you mean about those oil prices? Can you point out what that is a response to?
Cheers.
CmdrTobs 2 years ago
LOL @ dimebolt1976.
mikedundee1979 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
TYT are always so cynical ! We must put our trust in the bankers and our Government to get us out of this mess. And they WILL do because why...? Because they are AMERICANS and they stand for everything out flag stands for ! I can't believe that these people of power would do this to us, because they are voted in by us so will do the will of the people. Give them time! And God is always with us in these dark times too and i am sure he is keeping a watchful eye on things until he returns in 2012
dimebolt1976 2 years ago
@dimebolt1976
Please tell me you're kidding.
rscrash94 2 years ago 3
I hope you're kidding, I really do.
If not, please, take some time to study politics/economics. Eg., in the current healthcare debate, GOP attacked at every instance almost every point of reform that was proposed by democrats, did not provide any alternatives, and when they had the watered-down bill on the floor (thanks to them and blue dog-conservative democrats), they all voted against it nonetheless. No bipartisanhip, no amendments, nothing but obstructionism, to get political points.
UserNameForYeeTube 2 years ago
Thank god for book of revelationists...if God doesn't turn the world into a war riven barren hellscape, the people that believe in revelations will -_-
dffykvn 2 years ago
Don't make this a Dem. vs Repub. fight for healthcare. Both Parties never wanted real reform. Playing Russian roulet with no bullets. Laughable. Big show. And now it is a bill that gives the insurance monopolies more power to raise premiums and collect fees for providing no insurance at all. "Be careful of what you ask for--it might come true." But this is oppostite of what the American people were asking for. Sound familiar?
tjfgermany58123 2 years ago
I did mention blue dog democrats, didn't I?
Progressive and liberal democrats wanted reform, but they alone didn't have enough votes to push it through (as they decided against using reconciliation).
Reform was opposed by the industry, and they used insane sums of money through lobbying to ensure that the conservatives would fight the bill.
However, GOP is doing *everything* to undermine President Obama, make him not able to keep his promises and thus lose the 2012 elections.
UserNameForYeeTube 2 years ago
hahahahahahahhahahahahahaha. im so happy im not you
cm1155 2 years ago
Can we hang these guys by their balls yet?
aaronsande 2 years ago 3
And just wait until they come after our social security, "cuz that's where the money's at".
DrQuijano 2 years ago
I think the people will not become truly angry until that happens.
lostinseganet 2 years ago
People who are put into a Public Office and that are in trusted with the American citizen's wealth and welfare should be punished more not less than someone else. When was the last time someone in Congress went to jail. Many of them are out and out crooks. Who will prosecute these high level criminals? No one. They do anything they want to. Our rights and now are corrrupting the US Constitution. One by one the crooks in Washington need to be criminally prosecuted. They fear nothing now.
tjfgermany58123 2 years ago
There was that guy in alaska who got millions in illegal donations...one bribe was a wing to his mansion...he was caught...HARRY REID STOOD UP FOR HIM!!!!
dffykvn 2 years ago
You just did a story on how Madoff got the crap beat out of him in prison. Yet, Madoff affected far fewer people than these guys. And if you want to take it further, that black guy who's rotting in jail for robbing 50 bucks from some cash register...That's okay? That's justice? But we let the people who ruined the WORLD ECONOMY get off scott free? Not only that, but reward them?? I want to see a trial for these people. Find them and put them on trial. At LEAST!
rybpo7 2 years ago 3
@rybpo7 There are no courts in the world for people like that.
DrQuijano 2 years ago
rybpo7: I agree with you, partly.
Madoff deserved the beating he got, and then some.
These other guys ALSO deserve to be beaten.
I would LOVE to see the scenario you envision, and - and I use this phrase a lot - then some!
Look again at what Bill Maher said: 2 corrupt bankers every week, hanging from the stock exchange billboard with their balls in their mouth. As a message to the others.
1000Demons 2 years ago 2
We need a team of inglorious bastards to hunt down these Wall Street crooks.
SpiritualAtheist 2 years ago 3
or the boondock saints
jumar1281 2 years ago
This is scary! People lost everything (their, house, their liberty, their innocence, their jobs, etc) while these bankers made money from their mortgages and on top of that they got a bailout from the government. The bankers should go to jail, should lose their mansions, and give their money back to the PEOPLE! Death to Capitalism! When a robber steals 20 dollars, he or she goes to jail, but when a banker steals billions, he or she walks scot free. It is time to change. Wake up America!
cerritoboy 2 years ago 3
Hey it's a capitalist country...that banker deserved ever last cent of the billions of dollars he got as a bonus thanks to the inisible hand of the free market...which has a rubber glove on and is up our collective asses searching for the last cent we've hidden in our asses.
dffykvn 2 years ago
So, when is the invisible hand going to stop bitch slapping us?
newdarnaccount 2 years ago
Well we'd regain our economic standing in the world if we stand up to the invisible bully, hang a bunch of bankers for treason or mega ultra super grand larceny then we show that invisible bastard that we won't take his shit anymore.
But we have stockholm syndrome when it comes to Wall Street, they keep raping the country, but we're too afraid of them to do anything and some of us are enjoying the ****ing ...Republicans...duh.....
dffykvn 2 years ago
lol nicely put Mr. Smith.
andante24 2 years ago
I guess this is what Blankfein meant that Goldman is "doing God's work." I don't believe in God, but if he does exist he's a total dick.
DoctorMontalban 2 years ago 3
they actually do ask ex-bank robbers & ex-hackers to give a lot of input on the security of the back or computer system for the company that has hired them:)
Peace:) UB
UB40unplugged 2 years ago
They were soo good at stealing
that they got awarded, for
being a CEO
and Special Councellor for Tim Geithner.
zacky89 2 years ago
Just can't wait to see Erik Prince in his new PRC uniform.
mopsius 2 years ago
i have no problems with derivatives as long as the tax payer doesn't have to bail the loser out
xandras1111 2 years ago
Anyone know--has Generalissimo El Senor Presidente's Mormon Republican ambassador to mainland China sold Nevada to the Macanese yet?
mopsius 2 years ago
there should be more transparency, but how can obama ask for that, he hasn't even shown his birth certificate yet
megagagnon1 2 years ago
yes.
He has.
Months ago.
dude1a2z 2 years ago 2
and this above is why we can't talk reasonably to the right wingers, because they are off in lala land.
bungerman1000 2 years ago
If the Federal govenrment relocated all the Anglos to Oklahoma, p'raps Mexico could be interested in buying Texas?
mopsius 2 years ago
The Chinese are getting US troops in Afghanistan now to protect their new copper mines there for free--suppose they would buy the whole US military for the right price, including the private contractors?
mopsius 2 years ago
@mopsius Swedish police protect american interests in Sweden, for free.
You see, thats the job of those responsable for security and upholding the rule of law in any country.
In Afghanistan, for mosts parts, it happens to be the US-led military coalition.
That means US troops are bound to protect foreign and even rival interests in some cases.
Rule of law is as important as fighting the war itself.
One will never be successful without the other.
820423 2 years ago 2
Save your rule of law lecture for the dumbasses, 820423.
mopsius 2 years ago
O was Big Finances top recipient in 08 to the tune of $40 million. Might explain
why 11 months later there has been virtually nothing done to reign in Wall St's excesses.
RomeoMD25 2 years ago
What is being discussed here isn't "placing a bet", as the host here terms it. It's called hedging, and it's usually done by buying sell(or put) options on the thing in case its underlying value collapses. What screwed the pooch was the ridiculous over-optimism of both the govt and mortgage industry about the default rate combined with silly incentives to promote home ownership to those who couldn't afford it.
franksnow79 2 years ago
@franksnow79 It would not be incorrect to call Hedging betting, as u are basically betting that the value will drop.
Ex0dus111 2 years ago
Nonsense, that's akin saying that those who buy life insurance want to die.
franksnow79 2 years ago
Except if you take a life insurance on SOMEONE ELSE!
Think it up, quite ok analogy.
Can you take life insurance on someone else life ?
fire insurance on someone else house ?
What the logical conclusion would be ?
moestietabarnak 2 years ago
But they own the mortgage-backed securites they are buying the derivative on, not someone else.
franksnow79 2 years ago
Wrong, they taken huge hedge against those mortgage base securities.. while they resell those securities to unaware investor (they were rated AAA) ..
Maybe you'll understand now, its not that the mortage market drop that cause the crisis, it's cause they had 30 times their value in bet ..
That why AIG got hit the most they owe 30$ for each 1$ lost in the morgage securities
moestietabarnak 2 years ago
If so, the people buying them didn't do their own due diligence on their purchase, and the credit agencies should be on the hook for massive civil liability. Still seems to me more a matter of incompetence than malice, as no one wants to make so much that the other fellow can't afford to cough it up. It collapses the whole system.
franksnow79 2 years ago
What you describe is what should the hedges be used for ..
But they didn't use it to protect their asset, they used it to bet, while making crappy securities. Why you think thay were pushing for giving morgage to anybody like NINJA (No Income, No Job / Asset)
moestietabarnak 2 years ago
Then the other investor bought those securities, with hedging insurance... and the mortgage's market drop, and the insurance got hit by huges claims and became insolvent.
Thus, insurer bankrupt, investing bank following .. domino effect.
Leverage, make a fortune or loose your shirt.. (and bush up the leverage from 12 to 30$ for each dollar in reserve)
moestietabarnak 2 years ago
Hmmmmm, home forex. 200:1 leverage ftw.
I must think about doing that every other month alternating between pipe dreams of making a little plane in my garden..... ;-)
CmdrTobs 2 years ago
Last I knew you could get life insurance on someone else's life if you have an insurable interest in it.
newdarnaccount 2 years ago
No its the other way around.
Anyone who has a vested interest in watching the stock rise does not engange in a "Future Contract" against the stock, though that was the original intention, to allow for financial security in flucuating markets (specifically Agriculture). Today however its used by speculators to earn money based on their knowhow, and as a market starts to fall it suddenly becomes very popular. Causing the market to fall even more.
Ex0dus111 2 years ago
That's about the size of it, Ex0dus111.
Not that it really matters much at this point.
Suppose the Russians or the Japanese might want to buy Alaska?
mopsius 2 years ago
lol, I suppose they would want us to keep Sarah though. :-)
Ex0dus111 2 years ago