If people have watched this through (properly) and can honestly say they haven't been moved - they really should take a moment to ask themselves why they're interested in music at all.
The sitting conductor is not an inspiring sight and this mediocre Mahler doesn't help as well. The final Adagio is almost awful. If I had anyting to say about it, after this performance I took the 'Sir' title away.
@penguinlybra Oh yeah... the sitting 77 year old conductor who has suffered cancer and brain tumours... I think its inspiring that the guy is there at all. Do you disagree with the tempi of the final movement or the lack of vibration?
@violakeenan12 Sickness or any other handicap is no excuse for a worthless Mahler. I do not care about the sitting conductor. I only said I think it's not inspiring. If Norrington has been ill, Im very sorry for him, but it's not an an argument for such a poor performance. In his defence: you made the argument. Not mister Norrington. And again in his defence: I blame the boss of the Stuttgart Orchestra to let him perform.
@penguinlybra I do not believe it to be worthless mahler! On the contrary. I am not arguing that these problems influence the recording at all. I just think that a conductor sitting or standing should have any difference. You are not keen on this recording due to what? The speeds? Are you a listener who is used to the "Classics" Bernstein and karajan who take everything too slow and do not take one notice of any historical interpretation? SIR Roger Norrington is a legend!
@violakeenan12 In England he is a legend. In the rest of the world he is utterly unknown. And if you listen to his Mahler one can favor that last opinion. In England they think that Benjamin Britten is equal to Brahms. Yeah right! The best conductor for Mahler is Haitink of course.
@penguinlybra I can very much assure you that that is not true! Britten is not on a par with Brahms. Personally I dislike his music. You still are not informing me what is it with Norringtons Mahler you hate so much? Norrington conducts one of the biggest orchestra's in Germany? Norrington now conducts the Zurich Chamber Orchestra. Previously principal conductor of the Camerata Salzburg. Utterly unknown? I think not!
But it is true that in 1909, when Mahler wrote this, orchestral vibrato was used less. However, even a casual glance at the score would suggest a completely different use of vibrato from Norrington's approach even in 1909, especially in the last movement, Another weird thing is Roger' making that odd comment about the reference to "Freut euch des Lebens", saying we only discovered that in the past two or three years. That reference has been generally known for forty years!
my favorite recording of the 9th out of the 12 recordings i own is still Cincinnati Symph/Lopez-Cobos. it makes this sound like a boring sightreading of this masterpiece. for me the Cincy 9th is far preferable & is just about my favorite orchestral recording ever!
I remember what Klemperer said to Heyworth in an interview: "I feel angry when somebody tells me 'you must listen to this conductor doing this Mahler's symphony because he is good". I answer 'don't tell me that, I listened to the composer himself conducting it'".
my point being if he does not use portamento, or many of the other expressive devices that Mahler would likely have used, he is simply "doing it Roger's way." In any case, apart from portamento, there is nothing in this performance to suggest an interest in the expressive world that Mahler was interested in. It is provocative, and fun in a way, but does not really add much to our understanding of how Mahler would have wanted this to sound.
@pega17pl True. And Mahler was very clear in his indications. However, issues such as vibrato are not clearly indicated in the score; you do need to know and understand style to be true to the composer. The problem here is that Roger is making stuff up and then claiming special insight into Mahler style. To say "orchestras before 1940 used little vibrato" is demonstrably false, and can be proven by listening to the very Walter recording of this work done in 1938, which he cites as a model!
@Musicaespressivo sorry for misunderstanding; it's my general criticism to "Roger's way"; don't hear and feel at 1st movement from beginning as well as after every collapse how music - not trusting itself - carefully gropes forward... to me the base of whole symphony until it's indescribable fade out at last chords
@Musicaespressivo I found an article of Norrington's about his Elgar recordings. He said that he also prefers the pure tone affect personally. I dont think that after the crticism Norrington has attracted you should call him dishonest. I feel this hostility to lack of Vibrato is more based on due to the fact people have not heard it. When Beethoven was first played in a historically informed way it attracted vicious criticism as well as praise.
@violakeenan12 The lack of vibrato does not bother me. My problem is him saying that vibrato became universal only after 1940, when it is demonstrable from recorded evidence that continuous vibrato became standard during the 1920's.BTW I am happy to listen to non-vibrato Mahler, even if I think Roger has made some dreadful musical decisions. At least he is rethinking; I like that. But the pretense that he is more historically informed than other conscientious conductors is silly.
Mahler probably did not expect much vibrato from his players. It quickly became standard in the 1920's, but recordings before that show clearly that it was not general practice for orchestral players to use much vibrato. However, they used massive amounts of portamento-that was their expressive equivalent to vibrato. So Roger is not in any way authentic in his approach, he just obviously likes faster tempos and no vibrato, which coincidentally are more likely what Mahler expected.
The tempos are a bit brisk in all movements, except the 3d, which was spot on I believve. The Stuttgarters sounded very good, though I couldn't help feeling that they probably thought they were flying through this too quickly.
Love the viola soloist. I went to the talk beforehand, and it consisted of only a presenter, the concertmaster (first violinist), principal violist and the principal flautist.
Being a viola player, I couldn't believe my luck! They played lots of bits and pieces from the symphony. My favourite viola solo part though wasn't played until the proper performance - 56:38. Always a melancholy ray of sunlight in an otherwise devilish movement.
What a bunch of cloth-eared commentators! If you can't hear the phrasing or the carefully placed use of vibrato you don't deserve to be offered the chance to hear such a great performance of this sublime work.
O.k., in terms of tempi RN is generally a little slower than Walter was with the Viennese band in 1938, but only a little.
@Haeronthegreat Now that I do agree with. Especially the first movement - he just rushes through it without giving the various themes (in their various guises) any time or space.
Very uncharacteristic tempi of what I'd expect from this work - my favorite symphony of all time. It was more like a competent reading that one would expect from a first rehearsal. What was also a bit disappointing was doubling the first horn solo in the last movement at the beginning. Why? It doesn't need to be blasted. Unfortunately neither player made it anything special.
This makes me so angry. Norrington is an unmusical idiot. The lack of ANY vibrato is one travesty of course but the total lack of a singing line in the strings is simply perverse. The man needs cutting loose by orchestras.
@chairrest35 I feel we are at odds here. I feel such an emotional reponse from this recording of the music. Maybe you dont. And I apoligise for calling you a moron, however you cannot call ROGER NORRINGTON an unmusical idiot. He is SUCH a dude! His recordings of music always make me listen differently from any other. Do you resent this recording or do you resent his style of performance?
@violakeenan12 I have always felt that his slavish lack of vibrato is too dogmatic. I'm afraid I find that most "historical" performances put dogma over heart. In this instance I simply don't understand A) the lack of vibrato and B) the accenting of downbeats a la period performances of baroque music. I agree that vibrato has been overused in the last 70 years or so but to do away with it entirely doesn't make any sense to me. Where is his evidence that this was Mahler's intention?
@chairrest35 I believe that recordings of Orchestras in the late 40s used very little vibrato and that is Norringtons reasons. As this was composed around that time that is his reason in an interview he had. However that is his evidence, I myself do not know. I for one find it most interesting. And you cant say it isnt a different interpretation!
@violakeenan12 I agree it's different but I'm not sure using no vibrato automatically makes something authentic. I recently bought Bruno Walter's late 30s recording with the Vienna Philharmonic and I really can't hear the seeds of this performance in that. There is a naturalness about Walter that I can't hear here. This seems finger-pointing and didactic.
@joaoriquito I was also there and I absolutely agree- this was the closest I've ever come to walking out of a concert. An absolute travesty that left me cold, unmoved and angry for the rest of the evening :-(. Guys, if you want a real Mahler, check out Abaddo's with the Lucerne Festival Orch.
@lordgoodwinson Steady on, it wasn't that bad! I thought the non-vibrato playing was quite refreshing, and some of the sections were very interesting under Sir Roger's direction.
However...I will admit, my favourite movement, the second, was very disappointing. Various speeds in the first movement were questionable. And the fourth movement? Too hasty.
I still enjoyed the concert very much. Not a patch on the one I saw earlier on in the year though with Andris Nelsons and the CBSO.
I will agree that at times the non-vibrato worked (in the first movement especially), but Norrington's problem, as is in most of his interpretations, is that he doesn't know where to stop. Using non-vibrato sparingly, in carefully chosen passages creates a wonderfully refreshing effect. Using it exclusively ruins that effect completeley, as I believe we see in this performance.
I have heard wonderful things about Nelson's interpretation, hopefully a recording is in the pipeline!
@violakeenan12 Fair question! I saw a link to it from the Abbado video and thought I'd watch it again to see if I felt any differently about it six months on. I'm afraid I don't.
I was there too. An excellent lesson on what Mahler is not (which includes Roger having invited the publkic for applause between the 3rd and 4th Movement - which this heavily edited video does not show.
But thank you for posting: many of the people who were fortunate enough not to be there and who wouldn't have believe the news critics the days after, now have a chance to know the truth (even if heavily edited)
If people have watched this through (properly) and can honestly say they haven't been moved - they really should take a moment to ask themselves why they're interested in music at all.
peterviola528 1 day ago 3
The real problem here lies not in the lack or none-usage of vibrato, but the really weird speeds. Still love the third movement though.
danielregan1 1 week ago
The sitting conductor is not an inspiring sight and this mediocre Mahler doesn't help as well. The final Adagio is almost awful. If I had anyting to say about it, after this performance I took the 'Sir' title away.
penguinlybra 1 week ago
@penguinlybra Oh yeah... the sitting 77 year old conductor who has suffered cancer and brain tumours... I think its inspiring that the guy is there at all. Do you disagree with the tempi of the final movement or the lack of vibration?
violakeenan12 5 days ago
@violakeenan12 Sickness or any other handicap is no excuse for a worthless Mahler. I do not care about the sitting conductor. I only said I think it's not inspiring. If Norrington has been ill, Im very sorry for him, but it's not an an argument for such a poor performance. In his defence: you made the argument. Not mister Norrington. And again in his defence: I blame the boss of the Stuttgart Orchestra to let him perform.
penguinlybra 5 days ago
@penguinlybra I do not believe it to be worthless mahler! On the contrary. I am not arguing that these problems influence the recording at all. I just think that a conductor sitting or standing should have any difference. You are not keen on this recording due to what? The speeds? Are you a listener who is used to the "Classics" Bernstein and karajan who take everything too slow and do not take one notice of any historical interpretation? SIR Roger Norrington is a legend!
violakeenan12 4 days ago
@violakeenan12 In England he is a legend. In the rest of the world he is utterly unknown. And if you listen to his Mahler one can favor that last opinion. In England they think that Benjamin Britten is equal to Brahms. Yeah right! The best conductor for Mahler is Haitink of course.
penguinlybra 4 days ago
@penguinlybra I can very much assure you that that is not true! Britten is not on a par with Brahms. Personally I dislike his music. You still are not informing me what is it with Norringtons Mahler you hate so much? Norrington conducts one of the biggest orchestra's in Germany? Norrington now conducts the Zurich Chamber Orchestra. Previously principal conductor of the Camerata Salzburg. Utterly unknown? I think not!
violakeenan12 4 days ago
But it is true that in 1909, when Mahler wrote this, orchestral vibrato was used less. However, even a casual glance at the score would suggest a completely different use of vibrato from Norrington's approach even in 1909, especially in the last movement, Another weird thing is Roger' making that odd comment about the reference to "Freut euch des Lebens", saying we only discovered that in the past two or three years. That reference has been generally known for forty years!
Musicaespressivo 2 weeks ago
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my favorite recording of the 9th out of the 12 recordings i own is still Cincinnati Symph/Lopez-Cobos. it makes this sound like a boring sightreading of this masterpiece. for me the Cincy 9th is far preferable & is just about my favorite orchestral recording ever!
ertatta 4 weeks ago
I remember what Klemperer said to Heyworth in an interview: "I feel angry when somebody tells me 'you must listen to this conductor doing this Mahler's symphony because he is good". I answer 'don't tell me that, I listened to the composer himself conducting it'".
anaklasis 1 month ago
my point being if he does not use portamento, or many of the other expressive devices that Mahler would likely have used, he is simply "doing it Roger's way." In any case, apart from portamento, there is nothing in this performance to suggest an interest in the expressive world that Mahler was interested in. It is provocative, and fun in a way, but does not really add much to our understanding of how Mahler would have wanted this to sound.
Musicaespressivo 1 month ago
@Musicaespressivo remember Guenter Wand angry said "there is nothing to interpret! - you have to play what composer noted at script!"
pega17pl 2 weeks ago
@pega17pl True. And Mahler was very clear in his indications. However, issues such as vibrato are not clearly indicated in the score; you do need to know and understand style to be true to the composer. The problem here is that Roger is making stuff up and then claiming special insight into Mahler style. To say "orchestras before 1940 used little vibrato" is demonstrably false, and can be proven by listening to the very Walter recording of this work done in 1938, which he cites as a model!
Musicaespressivo 2 weeks ago
Comment removed
pega17pl 2 weeks ago
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@Musicaespressivo sorry for misunderstanding; it's my general criticism to "Roger's way"; don't hear and feel at 1st movement from beginning as well as after every collapse how music - not trusting itself - carefully gropes forward... to me the base of whole symphony until it's indescribable fade out at last chords
pega17pl 2 weeks ago in playlist comments
@Musicaespressivo I found an article of Norrington's about his Elgar recordings. He said that he also prefers the pure tone affect personally. I dont think that after the crticism Norrington has attracted you should call him dishonest. I feel this hostility to lack of Vibrato is more based on due to the fact people have not heard it. When Beethoven was first played in a historically informed way it attracted vicious criticism as well as praise.
violakeenan12 1 week ago
@violakeenan12 The lack of vibrato does not bother me. My problem is him saying that vibrato became universal only after 1940, when it is demonstrable from recorded evidence that continuous vibrato became standard during the 1920's.BTW I am happy to listen to non-vibrato Mahler, even if I think Roger has made some dreadful musical decisions. At least he is rethinking; I like that. But the pretense that he is more historically informed than other conscientious conductors is silly.
Musicaespressivo 1 week ago
Mahler probably did not expect much vibrato from his players. It quickly became standard in the 1920's, but recordings before that show clearly that it was not general practice for orchestral players to use much vibrato. However, they used massive amounts of portamento-that was their expressive equivalent to vibrato. So Roger is not in any way authentic in his approach, he just obviously likes faster tempos and no vibrato, which coincidentally are more likely what Mahler expected.
Musicaespressivo 1 month ago
Comment removed
Musicaespressivo 1 month ago
The tempos are a bit brisk in all movements, except the 3d, which was spot on I believve. The Stuttgarters sounded very good, though I couldn't help feeling that they probably thought they were flying through this too quickly.
Mahlerialiszt 1 month ago
Love the viola soloist. I went to the talk beforehand, and it consisted of only a presenter, the concertmaster (first violinist), principal violist and the principal flautist.
Being a viola player, I couldn't believe my luck! They played lots of bits and pieces from the symphony. My favourite viola solo part though wasn't played until the proper performance - 56:38. Always a melancholy ray of sunlight in an otherwise devilish movement.
danielregan1 1 month ago 2
@danielregan1 really goregous! I agree completly!
violakeenan12 1 month ago
youd think this would be clinical but instead its quite touching. excellent. and the orchestra looks happy
mikabrains 1 month ago
What a bunch of cloth-eared commentators! If you can't hear the phrasing or the carefully placed use of vibrato you don't deserve to be offered the chance to hear such a great performance of this sublime work.
O.k., in terms of tempi RN is generally a little slower than Walter was with the Viennese band in 1938, but only a little.
SmallMountainCliff 1 month ago
I wouldn't mind the lack of vibrato if only Rog would PHRASE.
Haeronthegreat 2 months ago 5
@Haeronthegreat Now that I do agree with. Especially the first movement - he just rushes through it without giving the various themes (in their various guises) any time or space.
danielregan1 2 months ago
Very uncharacteristic tempi of what I'd expect from this work - my favorite symphony of all time. It was more like a competent reading that one would expect from a first rehearsal. What was also a bit disappointing was doubling the first horn solo in the last movement at the beginning. Why? It doesn't need to be blasted. Unfortunately neither player made it anything special.
erstehorniste 2 months ago
This makes me so angry. Norrington is an unmusical idiot. The lack of ANY vibrato is one travesty of course but the total lack of a singing line in the strings is simply perverse. The man needs cutting loose by orchestras.
chairrest35 3 months ago 3
@chairrest35 You sir are a moron!
violakeenan12 1 month ago
@violakeenan12 Right back at you! This performance is all about dogma. Mahler must be turning in his grave at such ideologically flawed performances.
chairrest35 1 month ago
@chairrest35 I feel we are at odds here. I feel such an emotional reponse from this recording of the music. Maybe you dont. And I apoligise for calling you a moron, however you cannot call ROGER NORRINGTON an unmusical idiot. He is SUCH a dude! His recordings of music always make me listen differently from any other. Do you resent this recording or do you resent his style of performance?
violakeenan12 1 month ago
@violakeenan12 I have always felt that his slavish lack of vibrato is too dogmatic. I'm afraid I find that most "historical" performances put dogma over heart. In this instance I simply don't understand A) the lack of vibrato and B) the accenting of downbeats a la period performances of baroque music. I agree that vibrato has been overused in the last 70 years or so but to do away with it entirely doesn't make any sense to me. Where is his evidence that this was Mahler's intention?
chairrest35 1 month ago
@chairrest35 I believe that recordings of Orchestras in the late 40s used very little vibrato and that is Norringtons reasons. As this was composed around that time that is his reason in an interview he had. However that is his evidence, I myself do not know. I for one find it most interesting. And you cant say it isnt a different interpretation!
violakeenan12 1 month ago
@violakeenan12 I agree it's different but I'm not sure using no vibrato automatically makes something authentic. I recently bought Bruno Walter's late 30s recording with the Vienna Philharmonic and I really can't hear the seeds of this performance in that. There is a naturalness about Walter that I can't hear here. This seems finger-pointing and didactic.
chairrest35 1 month ago 2
@violakeenan12 What! Composed around 1940? Mahler died in 1911!! The 9th was composed in 1909.
muzomanoz 3 weeks ago
@muzomanoz whoops! sorry about that.
violakeenan12 3 weeks ago
@joaoriquito I was also there and I absolutely agree- this was the closest I've ever come to walking out of a concert. An absolute travesty that left me cold, unmoved and angry for the rest of the evening :-(. Guys, if you want a real Mahler, check out Abaddo's with the Lucerne Festival Orch.
lordgoodwinson 3 months ago 5
@lordgoodwinson Steady on, it wasn't that bad! I thought the non-vibrato playing was quite refreshing, and some of the sections were very interesting under Sir Roger's direction.
However...I will admit, my favourite movement, the second, was very disappointing. Various speeds in the first movement were questionable. And the fourth movement? Too hasty.
I still enjoyed the concert very much. Not a patch on the one I saw earlier on in the year though with Andris Nelsons and the CBSO.
danielregan1 3 months ago
@danielregan1
I will agree that at times the non-vibrato worked (in the first movement especially), but Norrington's problem, as is in most of his interpretations, is that he doesn't know where to stop. Using non-vibrato sparingly, in carefully chosen passages creates a wonderfully refreshing effect. Using it exclusively ruins that effect completeley, as I believe we see in this performance.
I have heard wonderful things about Nelson's interpretation, hopefully a recording is in the pipeline!
lordgoodwinson 3 months ago
@lordgoodwinson Absolutely. Abbado for natural, singing and unselfconscious music making.
chairrest35 3 months ago 2
@lordgoodwinson If you nearly walked out of the actual prom why are you watching it on youtube??
violakeenan12 1 week ago
@violakeenan12 Fair question! I saw a link to it from the Abbado video and thought I'd watch it again to see if I felt any differently about it six months on. I'm afraid I don't.
lordgoodwinson 1 week ago
@lordgoodwinson im afraid I love this recording! Oh well. Agree to disagree I think? :)
violakeenan12 6 days ago
I was there too. An excellent lesson on what Mahler is not (which includes Roger having invited the publkic for applause between the 3rd and 4th Movement - which this heavily edited video does not show.
But thank you for posting: many of the people who were fortunate enough not to be there and who wouldn't have believe the news critics the days after, now have a chance to know the truth (even if heavily edited)
joaoriquito 3 months ago 2
@joaoriquito Total rubbish.
violakeenan12 4 days ago
I've got the ticket and couldn't go for this concert. thank you so much for sharing this concert!
lastredrose 4 months ago
Been looking very hard for this stunning performance.
Thanks.
chadford88 4 months ago 2
Thank you for posting.
coldstream07 4 months ago 6
I. Andante comodo - 5:37
II. Im Tempo eines gemächlichen Ländlers. Etwas täppisch und sehr derb - 32:34
III. Rondo. Burleske. Allegro assai. Sehr trotzig - 46:50
IV. Adagio. Sehr langsam und noch zurückhaltend - 1:00:20
Edward Elgar - Elegy for strings (Op. 58) - 1:23:04
danielregan1 4 months ago