Doug, I had to edit the video so it would fit on YouTube. You can see the whole video over at my website. Click on "show more" above, scroll down and click on the link right after "Questions & comments...", which takes you to the discussion forum at my website. There, scroll down to the first video, watch that, and a second video, Part 2, will come up. At about minute 7:45, I show the corner bevel detail twice, with explanations on how to do it.
John -- A great video. But you didn't show the one thing that I came to see you demo. That is, how to get the corners looking good. You said in the video that you would "show that in a moment", but then never did. Do you have a video clip showing that technique? That is the trickiest part for me.
**In my region the traditional wood for windows is spruce. 200 miles to the south or north it is pine corewood, but here it has always been spruce. Which typically rots in 5 years.**
Here in Maine, USA, the traditional sash wood is Eastern White Pine, selected for straight grain heartwood. It lasts for 300 years. Also, some are of White Oak, Mahogany, etc. A new imported wood used by some sashmakers is Spanish Cedar.
I would like to see some videos of your window work.
**Either I seal the rabbet with schellack or I saturate the rabbet with oil**
Here in America the tradition is to seal the rabbet with boiled linseed oil, which I have used in the past. I have used Shellac too, which I learned from Hans Allback in Sweden.
**I was thinking about posting one [video] myself. But here's a decent one**
Thanks! You should post one too, I want to learn how it is done in your neck of the woods.
>>Either I seal the rabbet with schellack or I saturate the rabbet with oil<<
Here in America the tradition is to seal the rabbet with boiled linseed oil, which I have used in the past. I have used Shellac too, which I learned from Hans Allback in Sweden.
Oh wow, I've been skimming through glazing videos on youtube for a while now, and they've all been so awful I was thinking about posting one myself. But here's a decent one. Thanks!
From the discussion below it seems you have much the same problems with "pressure to chuck'em" as here in scandinavia, and perhaps worse.
In my region the traditional wood for windows is spruce. 200 miles to the south or north it is pine corewood, but here it has always been spruce. Which typically rots in 5 years.
But by choosing the right trees and constructing the windows correctly, and by using proper linseed paint and putty, such spruce windows are still among us 200+ years later.
It looked like you were using paint to seal the rabbet so the "pressureputty" doesn't dry out.
I've seen this alot, but it requires some sort of acrylic or latex paint to effectively stop the oil from wandering out of the putty, and I don't use those. Either I seal the rabbet with schellack or I saturate the rabbet with oil
"This "part-by-part" repair method has been proven by the test of time. I have personally see 205 year old sash repaired this way that have lasted another 125 years."
Woodstone writes:
"Not sure about this one, John. What was the extent of the damage? You certainly didn’t use epoxy 125 years ago."
Here 'part by part' repair means that a whole part, a rail or stile, is made new and replaced, keeping all the rest of the original windows.
Woodstone isn't saying that restoration isn't appropriate.
Most people think replacements are available only in vinyl or aluminum. Remember, if a window says its maintenance free, it likely can't be maintained and it will end up in the landfill years before a proper replication typically even needs maintenance. Replicated windows are available.
And yes, Woodstone makes them. That's our business.
"How long has Woodstone's interior glazing stop detail been in use? What are the failure modes and repair methods of this detail?"
Great question. And the answer requires more than one post, so please bear with me.
1. It’s the exterior muntin profile simulating the ext. glazing compound that’s the most interesting. This detail eliminates the need to repair glazing compound and glazing points and the paint doesn’t have to lap on to the glass to make a weather tight seal.
"What are the failure modes and repair methods of this detail?"
Simply replace the stop. It's easier than glazing compound. Woodstone provides replacement parts as needed. But any experienced woodworker can fabricate a molding stop for you.
"How long has Woodstone's interior glazing stop detail been in use?"
When using Insulated Glass you can’t/shouldn’t glaze with glazing compound. It off-gases and voids the warranty on the IG. The ext. seal of glazing putty allows moisture to penetrate to the rabbet, that’s why its traditionally placed on the exterior – so it won’t leak. But moisture inevitably reaches the joinery and the tell tale sign is paint peeling the lower corners of the sash frame.
"This is not to say that Woodstone windows are not good quality, just that the warranty is not a guarantee of quality."
Again, John, I beg to differ. For one thing, a warranty is supported by the rule of law. State and Federal commercial code requires certain conformance. Otherwise the customer can litigate for breach of contract or, even more punitively, consumer fraud, in which triple damages and court costs can be awarded. Always read the warranty, just as you do when you buy a car.
"On some projects we do these effective low-cost repairs on most windows and then replace just one or two with high-end reproductions, perhaps like yours."
Woodstone windows are not intended for every structure to be sure. Low cost repairs are always the best choice. But If you have a distinctive property and spend twice as much on a replication that provides twice the energy efficiency and four times the useful life before you need additional repairs, you’re way ahead of the game.
"This "part-by-part" repair method has been proven by the test of time. I have personally see 205 year old sash repaired this way that have lasted another 125 years."
Not sure about this one, John. What was the extent of the damage? You certainly didn’t use epoxy 125 years ago.
Again, visit the Woodstone web site and watch the video. There are examples of old windows that we replicated because the time and effort to restore simply wasn’t worth the cost.
>>...For example, old wood that’s been refinished over the years, loses its ability to absorb new paint and varnish. ...<<
What?! This claim is ridiculous. It's a demonstrated fact that the wood in wooden windows can be refinished effectively as part of ongoing maintenance. Traditional paint maintenance practices have been used for centuries, and they still work today.
Readers of this interchange between Woodstone and John Leeke should understand that Woodstone is selling windows. John Leeke does not sell windows, nor provide window restoration services. John Leeke does provide objective information on older and historic building maintenance and repair.
>>...How long is the warranty on a typical restored window?...<<
Many historic window specialists have something that is far more effective and valuable than a warranty. The have a personal ongoing relationship with their customers with features like authentic trust and a reputation based on generations of proven performance.
>>How long will a restored epoxy consolidated sash last..centuries?...<<
No one knows for sure, that's why wood-epoxy repairs are considered by knowledgeable window specialists to still be in the testing phase of their development. We do know that effective wood-epoxy repair methods can last 40 years, as proven by the test of time.
How long has Woodstone's interior glazing stop detail been in use? What are the failure modes and repair methods of this detail?
>>A fully finished wooden Woodstone window has a 20 year warranty...<<
Savvy buyers know that a warranty is a marketing device and not an indicator of quality of the product. Warranties are designed and written by lawyers to protect the interests of the manufacturers, to make the products easier to sell.
This is not to say that Woodstone windows are not good quality, just that the warranty is not a guarantee of quality.
>>At Woodstone we build our windows the same way they were built centuries ago, with pegged mortise and tenon joinery... <<
That's great! Sometimes we need good windows, but not every building owner can afford high-end replacements for all their windows. On many projects repairs and maintenance will cost much less. On some projects we do these effective low-cost repairs on most windows and then replace just one or two with high-end reproductions, perhaps like yours
>>Sash restoration is typically appropriate only when the sashes aren’t significantly damaged...<<
This is just another marketing myth. Sash joints that are completely decayed can be repaired by replacing just the decayed parts of the sash, the stile and rail. This "part-by-part" repair method has been proven by the test of time. I have personally see 205 year old sash repaired this way that have lasted another 125 years.
If you want to do it again, seat it in glazing compound as shown. If you want it to last set it in a good sealent then use DAP to glaze the outside. Won't be rattling and loose & in a few years! I do loads of historic restoration, you have to moderize a bit but still keep it hirtorically correct.
There's more than one way to skin a cat, and bedding in a sealant is one. Many historic window specialists are doing that. I use different methods & materials depending on the situation. This is just a training video, so it doesn't show everything.
I saw your fan-lite repair and glazing videos and your work looks good. Where are you located? With your permission, I'd like to list you in the national directory of historic window specialists.
A fully finished wooden Woodstone window has a 20 year warranty on woodwork, 25 years on the finish and up to 20 years on insulating glass al while maintaining the detail and function of the original. How long is the warranty on a typical restored window?
Again, check us out at our web site - woodstone. com. Watch our video. You have nothing to lose by making the comparison.
At Woodstone we improve the traditional fabrication methods by applying glazing stops on the interior, not the exterior, thereby preventing moisture from penetrating the mortises. Old sash have inherent difficulties that can’t be restored. For example, old wood that’s been refinished over the years, loses its ability to absorb new paint and varnish. Epoxy consolidation, for example, is just that, epoxy, not wood. How long will a restored epoxy consolidated sash last..centuries?
Re: "It would if you could prove that they would last one or two centuries."
Sash restoration is typically appropriate only when the sashes aren’t significantly damaged. At Woodstone we build our windows the same way they were built centuries ago, with pegged mortise and tenon joinery. And we use wood with high resistance to decay – American Cherry, White Oak, Genuine Mahogany. If the originals lasted for centuries, you can be reasonably sure the replacement will too - that's the point.
If a new wooden replacement window with true divided lights (not simulated) with the same details and the same hardware as the original was available, and it was energy efficient, easily maintained and had a useful life longer than that of the original, wouldn’t it be worth considering?
Check out Woodstone® historic windows. Visit our web site. View the Woodstone video. If you have questions, join the Woodstone blog. Educate yourself and then decide.
We have enough time to save many old windows, rather than replacing them. Almost all old windows can be maintained and repaired at lower cost than replacement, especially if the replacement window is at least as good at the old window. Occasionally we replace a window with one made using traditional materials, construction and details.
"Educate yourself and decide" is good advice. The building owner who knows the actual cost of window maintenance and repairs almost always decides to save them.
>>had a useful life longer than that of the original, wouldn’t it be worth considering?<<
It would if you could prove that they would last one or two centuries. The only real proof is the test of time. So, when some of your windows are a century old, we'll know that they are good. In the mean time, we'll keep busy maintaining the windows that are proven to be good, that one's that have actually lasted a century.
With that said, it looks like you are making some nice windows there at Woodstone.
Here at Historic HomeWorks the main idea is to help people save windows and entire old buildings, so it doesn't make any difference what it looks like, as long as it's saved. Where's your church project? Got any photos or videos of your window work?
Doug, I had to edit the video so it would fit on YouTube. You can see the whole video over at my website. Click on "show more" above, scroll down and click on the link right after "Questions & comments...", which takes you to the discussion forum at my website. There, scroll down to the first video, watch that, and a second video, Part 2, will come up. At about minute 7:45, I show the corner bevel detail twice, with explanations on how to do it.
John
johnleeke 2 weeks ago
John -- A great video. But you didn't show the one thing that I came to see you demo. That is, how to get the corners looking good. You said in the video that you would "show that in a moment", but then never did. Do you have a video clip showing that technique? That is the trickiest part for me.
dougemail1 2 weeks ago
**here it has always been spruce. Which typically rots in 5 years.**
Well, that makes plenty of work for the sash makers!
--John
johnleeke 4 months ago
**In my region the traditional wood for windows is spruce. 200 miles to the south or north it is pine corewood, but here it has always been spruce. Which typically rots in 5 years.**
Here in Maine, USA, the traditional sash wood is Eastern White Pine, selected for straight grain heartwood. It lasts for 300 years. Also, some are of White Oak, Mahogany, etc. A new imported wood used by some sashmakers is Spanish Cedar.
I would like to see some videos of your window work.
--John
johnleeke 4 months ago
**Either I seal the rabbet with schellack or I saturate the rabbet with oil**
Here in America the tradition is to seal the rabbet with boiled linseed oil, which I have used in the past. I have used Shellac too, which I learned from Hans Allback in Sweden.
**I was thinking about posting one [video] myself. But here's a decent one**
Thanks! You should post one too, I want to learn how it is done in your neck of the woods.
--John
--John
johnleeke 4 months ago
>>Either I seal the rabbet with schellack or I saturate the rabbet with oil<<
Here in America the tradition is to seal the rabbet with boiled linseed oil, which I have used in the past. I have used Shellac too, which I learned from Hans Allback in Sweden.
--John
johnleeke 4 months ago
Oh wow, I've been skimming through glazing videos on youtube for a while now, and they've all been so awful I was thinking about posting one myself. But here's a decent one. Thanks!
From the discussion below it seems you have much the same problems with "pressure to chuck'em" as here in scandinavia, and perhaps worse.
In my region the traditional wood for windows is spruce. 200 miles to the south or north it is pine corewood, but here it has always been spruce. Which typically rots in 5 years.
stefflus08 4 months ago
But by choosing the right trees and constructing the windows correctly, and by using proper linseed paint and putty, such spruce windows are still among us 200+ years later.
It looked like you were using paint to seal the rabbet so the "pressureputty" doesn't dry out.
I've seen this alot, but it requires some sort of acrylic or latex paint to effectively stop the oil from wandering out of the putty, and I don't use those. Either I seal the rabbet with schellack or I saturate the rabbet with oil
stefflus08 4 months ago
OK, this is a great discussion. I think we're just hashing out the details to learn we're basically on the same page.
Window makers have always been innovative, throughout the centuries; as have the workers who maintain and repair windows.
John
johnleeke 1 year ago
John writes:
"This "part-by-part" repair method has been proven by the test of time. I have personally see 205 year old sash repaired this way that have lasted another 125 years."
Woodstone writes:
"Not sure about this one, John. What was the extent of the damage? You certainly didn’t use epoxy 125 years ago."
Here 'part by part' repair means that a whole part, a rail or stile, is made new and replaced, keeping all the rest of the original windows.
John
johnleeke 1 year ago
By the way, this is a great interchange.
Woodstone isn't saying that restoration isn't appropriate.
Most people think replacements are available only in vinyl or aluminum. Remember, if a window says its maintenance free, it likely can't be maintained and it will end up in the landfill years before a proper replication typically even needs maintenance. Replicated windows are available.
And yes, Woodstone makes them. That's our business.
TheWoodstoneCo 1 year ago
"How long has Woodstone's interior glazing stop detail been in use? What are the failure modes and repair methods of this detail?"
Great question. And the answer requires more than one post, so please bear with me.
1. It’s the exterior muntin profile simulating the ext. glazing compound that’s the most interesting. This detail eliminates the need to repair glazing compound and glazing points and the paint doesn’t have to lap on to the glass to make a weather tight seal.
TheWoodstoneCo 1 year ago
"What are the failure modes and repair methods of this detail?"
Simply replace the stop. It's easier than glazing compound. Woodstone provides replacement parts as needed. But any experienced woodworker can fabricate a molding stop for you.
TheWoodstoneCo 1 year ago
"How long has Woodstone's interior glazing stop detail been in use?"
When using Insulated Glass you can’t/shouldn’t glaze with glazing compound. It off-gases and voids the warranty on the IG. The ext. seal of glazing putty allows moisture to penetrate to the rabbet, that’s why its traditionally placed on the exterior – so it won’t leak. But moisture inevitably reaches the joinery and the tell tale sign is paint peeling the lower corners of the sash frame.
TheWoodstoneCo 1 year ago
"How long has Woodstone's interior glazing stop detail been in use? What are the failure modes and repair methods of this detail?"
Great question. And the answer requires more than one post, so please bear with me.
4. We’ve never seen an interior stop ‘fail’ from exposure to the elements in the 40 years I’ve been observing them.
TheWoodstoneCo 1 year ago
"This is not to say that Woodstone windows are not good quality, just that the warranty is not a guarantee of quality."
Again, John, I beg to differ. For one thing, a warranty is supported by the rule of law. State and Federal commercial code requires certain conformance. Otherwise the customer can litigate for breach of contract or, even more punitively, consumer fraud, in which triple damages and court costs can be awarded. Always read the warranty, just as you do when you buy a car.
TheWoodstoneCo 1 year ago
"On some projects we do these effective low-cost repairs on most windows and then replace just one or two with high-end reproductions, perhaps like yours."
Woodstone windows are not intended for every structure to be sure. Low cost repairs are always the best choice. But If you have a distinctive property and spend twice as much on a replication that provides twice the energy efficiency and four times the useful life before you need additional repairs, you’re way ahead of the game.
TheWoodstoneCo 1 year ago
"This "part-by-part" repair method has been proven by the test of time. I have personally see 205 year old sash repaired this way that have lasted another 125 years."
Not sure about this one, John. What was the extent of the damage? You certainly didn’t use epoxy 125 years ago.
Again, visit the Woodstone web site and watch the video. There are examples of old windows that we replicated because the time and effort to restore simply wasn’t worth the cost.
TheWoodstoneCo 1 year ago
Woodstone claims:
>>...For example, old wood that’s been refinished over the years, loses its ability to absorb new paint and varnish. ...<<
What?! This claim is ridiculous. It's a demonstrated fact that the wood in wooden windows can be refinished effectively as part of ongoing maintenance. Traditional paint maintenance practices have been used for centuries, and they still work today.
John
johnleeke 1 year ago
Readers of this interchange between Woodstone and John Leeke should understand that Woodstone is selling windows. John Leeke does not sell windows, nor provide window restoration services. John Leeke does provide objective information on older and historic building maintenance and repair.
johnleeke 1 year ago
Woodstone says:
>>...How long is the warranty on a typical restored window?...<<
Many historic window specialists have something that is far more effective and valuable than a warranty. The have a personal ongoing relationship with their customers with features like authentic trust and a reputation based on generations of proven performance.
John
johnleeke 1 year ago
Woodstone says:
>>How long will a restored epoxy consolidated sash last..centuries?...<<
No one knows for sure, that's why wood-epoxy repairs are considered by knowledgeable window specialists to still be in the testing phase of their development. We do know that effective wood-epoxy repair methods can last 40 years, as proven by the test of time.
How long has Woodstone's interior glazing stop detail been in use? What are the failure modes and repair methods of this detail?
John
johnleeke 1 year ago
Woodstone says:
>>A fully finished wooden Woodstone window has a 20 year warranty...<<
Savvy buyers know that a warranty is a marketing device and not an indicator of quality of the product. Warranties are designed and written by lawyers to protect the interests of the manufacturers, to make the products easier to sell.
This is not to say that Woodstone windows are not good quality, just that the warranty is not a guarantee of quality.
John
Historic HomeWorks
johnleeke 1 year ago
Woodstone says:
>>At Woodstone we build our windows the same way they were built centuries ago, with pegged mortise and tenon joinery... <<
That's great! Sometimes we need good windows, but not every building owner can afford high-end replacements for all their windows. On many projects repairs and maintenance will cost much less. On some projects we do these effective low-cost repairs on most windows and then replace just one or two with high-end reproductions, perhaps like yours
John Leeke
johnleeke 1 year ago
Woodstone says:
>>Sash restoration is typically appropriate only when the sashes aren’t significantly damaged...<<
This is just another marketing myth. Sash joints that are completely decayed can be repaired by replacing just the decayed parts of the sash, the stile and rail. This "part-by-part" repair method has been proven by the test of time. I have personally see 205 year old sash repaired this way that have lasted another 125 years.
John
Historic HomeWorks
johnleeke 1 year ago
If you want to do it again, seat it in glazing compound as shown. If you want it to last set it in a good sealent then use DAP to glaze the outside. Won't be rattling and loose & in a few years! I do loads of historic restoration, you have to moderize a bit but still keep it hirtorically correct.
glazerguy58 1 year ago
GlazerGuy:
There's more than one way to skin a cat, and bedding in a sealant is one. Many historic window specialists are doing that. I use different methods & materials depending on the situation. This is just a training video, so it doesn't show everything.
I saw your fan-lite repair and glazing videos and your work looks good. Where are you located? With your permission, I'd like to list you in the national directory of historic window specialists.
John
with no strain he sets the pane
johnleeke 1 year ago
A fully finished wooden Woodstone window has a 20 year warranty on woodwork, 25 years on the finish and up to 20 years on insulating glass al while maintaining the detail and function of the original. How long is the warranty on a typical restored window?
Again, check us out at our web site - woodstone. com. Watch our video. You have nothing to lose by making the comparison.
TheWoodstoneCo 1 year ago
At Woodstone we improve the traditional fabrication methods by applying glazing stops on the interior, not the exterior, thereby preventing moisture from penetrating the mortises. Old sash have inherent difficulties that can’t be restored. For example, old wood that’s been refinished over the years, loses its ability to absorb new paint and varnish. Epoxy consolidation, for example, is just that, epoxy, not wood. How long will a restored epoxy consolidated sash last..centuries?
TheWoodstoneCo 1 year ago
Re: "It would if you could prove that they would last one or two centuries."
Sash restoration is typically appropriate only when the sashes aren’t significantly damaged. At Woodstone we build our windows the same way they were built centuries ago, with pegged mortise and tenon joinery. And we use wood with high resistance to decay – American Cherry, White Oak, Genuine Mahogany. If the originals lasted for centuries, you can be reasonably sure the replacement will too - that's the point.
TheWoodstoneCo 1 year ago
How much time do you have?
If a new wooden replacement window with true divided lights (not simulated) with the same details and the same hardware as the original was available, and it was energy efficient, easily maintained and had a useful life longer than that of the original, wouldn’t it be worth considering?
Check out Woodstone® historic windows. Visit our web site. View the Woodstone video. If you have questions, join the Woodstone blog. Educate yourself and then decide.
TheWoodstoneCo 1 year ago
We have enough time to save many old windows, rather than replacing them. Almost all old windows can be maintained and repaired at lower cost than replacement, especially if the replacement window is at least as good at the old window. Occasionally we replace a window with one made using traditional materials, construction and details.
"Educate yourself and decide" is good advice. The building owner who knows the actual cost of window maintenance and repairs almost always decides to save them.
johnleeke 1 year ago
>>had a useful life longer than that of the original, wouldn’t it be worth considering?<<
It would if you could prove that they would last one or two centuries. The only real proof is the test of time. So, when some of your windows are a century old, we'll know that they are good. In the mean time, we'll keep busy maintaining the windows that are proven to be good, that one's that have actually lasted a century.
With that said, it looks like you are making some nice windows there at Woodstone.
johnleeke 1 year ago
Here at Historic HomeWorks the main idea is to help people save windows and entire old buildings, so it doesn't make any difference what it looks like, as long as it's saved. Where's your church project? Got any photos or videos of your window work?
johnleeke 1 year ago