@scooner67 No, that is a contradiction. You have now divided them into three SEPARATE BEINGS! Are they three parts or are they three Gods? Simply sharing the attributes of deity is splitting them into three and saying that one truly isn't fully God. One must be knocked out of God. And, no, look it up in a Hebrew Lexicon: echad means one (number).
@Danielezerable In no way have I divided God into three separate "beings", that would be tritheism. However I do recognize how such categorical errors are made. Being describes What something is...it's nature....personal distinctions describe Who someone is. In scripture it is clear that Jesus is distinct from the father, but we know from scripture He shares His divine nature.
@Danielezerable //And, no, look it up in a Hebrew Lexicon: echad means one (number).// Then please explain why Jesus quoted Deut 6:4 in Mk 12:29 and chose the "unified oneness" word "hen" which is the same word used by Jesus in Mt 19:5, "the two shall become one (hen) flesh. It is significant that Jesus did not use "mono" in Mk 12:29. The word "hen" directly corresponds to "echad" which was used in Deut 6:4.
Wow! How arrogant. " Hear, Oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One" Deut. 6:4, Mark 12:29, See also John 14:9, 10-30, Eph. 4:6, 4:5-7. See Strong's Concordance "son" in NT # 5207 nihoah pleasing, soothing, sweet aroma Hebraically the spirit or essence, or the voice of the principles (Word of God) Bible & Einstein claim 10 dimensions. Yeshua was the 3 dimensional manifestation. Without the Hebrew Roots we can come up with all kinds of crazy meanings, including plural gods.
I created a couple of interesting stories with significant morals about life. One of them happens to be a sophisticated D&D campaign that is a traditional historical fantasy combining the references of ancient Europe, Medieval and Post-Medieval Europe, and Asia between 2000 BC and AD 1700. I was surprised that I can actually provide useful messages about the Middle Ages and why they sucked.
@tideymax7 Thank God, we now have access to many of the original documents through Dead Sea Scrolls and very ancient Torah scrolls. It is phenomenal how faithfully these men kept the text. There are no real faithful translations of anything, most are transliterations. I have read three different translations of Les Mis which come from different points of view, same as the Bible. But, of course, to be faithful to meanings it must have been written in KJ English a century before he was born.
“But even if we or an angel from heaven (moroni) should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, curse be on him!” Galatians 1:6-9 Mormon’s are not prepared for the coming apocalypse, Huge Sorrow will be to the mormon who refuse to see the truth, You have been warned your fall will be great. Read the BIBLE ONLY!
As for getting back into the Academy after his mission, he said, "There's no guarantee, but pretty much all [Latter-day Saints] in good standing come back [after their missions] and are accepted with no problem.
"I'm not too worried about getting back in. My grades are pretty good. Conduct-wise, I don't have any problems."
For all cadets, the requirements to be admitted to the Air Force Academy are rigorous. Then once they arrive, they face demands not common among their non-AFA peers.
For more than 100 LDS cadets currently enrolled, it can be even more challenging, such as the requirements to serve a mission.
Jesus was a DUAL person. God and Christ yoked together in the self-same person. they were not seperate from each other until the garden of gethsemane and Christ went to the cross alone. God and Christ did not stay seperated, they were re-united on resurrection day
I hope this gets a good constructive conversation going....I'm going to go view a couple of your other videos..I'm sure I will feel the compulsion to reply....it's in my nature.
Wow...the level ignorance of how orthodoxy and the creeds were formed is absolutely astonishing. The trinity is based clearly on the implications of the subject object relationship that exist between the Father and the Son and based on sola scriptura and the stricted observence of monotheism. Trinitians are monotheist in the strict sense that we beleive in ONE God who has reveal Himself as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Momans on the other hand are Polytheist as their founder taught
You're wrong, but don't let that stop you from believing falsehoods about Mormons. You don't know what polytheism is or means do you..... It shows, I promise. And you speak of ignorance on our part eh? Pot-kettle-black......
I can afford to be wrong now and again, but I'm not wrong when it comes to how your own prophet defined the nature of the Godhead, at best mormans are tritheistic in their understanding of God. I've spoken to mormans. listen to BYU extensively and read the writings of your prophet.....Mormans since they misunderstand the nature of God (more like tri-theism) and believe they can attain Godhood they are for all intent and purposes by definition Polytheist....I don't mean to be contentious...
Maybe ignorance wasn't the best choice of words. You obviously have put a lot of thought and study into finding reasons to support your claims..so in the spirit of charity and future discussion I withdraw the contentious statement....however I do support my conclusions and if need be can support them.
And I apologize for returning being a little brisk. I also will try to be civil. I would, however, enjoy seeing your interpretations. I still think there is a bit you are misunderstanding from the Mormon view.
Um. Can't see my reply. It must of got deleted. Anyways, I look forward to having a discussion with you. And I will try and stay away from words that cause contention and stick with what will further a good discussion. Hopefully I will learn something about LDS understanding of the nature of God. Ultimately truth is what matters with the understanding I think you'd agree that it's God who has revealed Himself in space and time through Prophets, apostles and finally though Christ
Now as far as my interpretation of the Bible regarding the nature of God, I start with the Shema found in Deut 6:4. It discribes Him as One. The prophets affirmed this throughout the OT. Isa 44:6-8 Here God not only affirms the fact that He alone is God by nature, but also gives insight how He gave prophets the ability to declare what was going to be. A ability that only God can do. In vs 8 God then ask a rhetorical ??? Is there any God beside Me and then answers with "I know of none....
I would also like to add Isa 43:10-13. It states clearly that no Gods have been created or formed before or after Him. Now if this is true, how does LDS interprete these verse in light of LDS doctrine concerning the Godhead. I've heard mormons affirm that there is One God, yet it almost seems Tri theistic...in the sense that Father is a God and the Son is another God. Separate and distinct as to being and personhood. Is this accurate or could you help clarify????
Another question I have...Do LDS affirm Monotheism...I ask this question because I've had mormons tell me they affirm the teaching that they will become Gods through exaltation. Again I ask this question within the context of Isa 43 and also 44....and what Biblical verse would you use to support such a contention that other Gods are being formed through exaltation????
Problem with Triniatarianism: Jesus shows he is God many times. It is evident from the scriptures he is fully God. The Word was God and it became flesh. Did only 1/3 of God come?
Problem with Modalism: Jesus shows himself to be inferior to the father and prays to the father and talks to the father.
Problem with Arianism: Jesus is more than just a subordinate.
All three: man's best efforts to understand the mystery of an ununderstandable God.
@Danielezerable The fact that Jesus demonstrates that he is God is not a problem for trinitarianism...@ all. If anything is establishes the biblical teaching in light of monotheism.
Modelism is a heresy no doubt, however the fact that Jesus subordinated himself to the father in no way leads one to the erroneous conclusion that Jesus in his person was subordinate to the father in sharing His divine nature.
Your last?? God is certainly encomprehensible but we can apprehend what he has revealed
@TheBackyardProfessor Mormonism adds doctrines to the Bible. It is NOT Christianity. You say Trinity is manmade? Trinity does have contradictions, yes. So do all other existing concepts of God. Want to know why? Because He is TOO POWERFUL for us to understand!
@Danielezerable I fail to see how the trinity is contradictory!!! It is only contradictory if you fail to see the categories which exist in the language we use to describe such revelatory concepts. So please if you will demonstrate how the trinity is indeed contradictory??
@scooner67 The Trinity is contradictory because it states Jesus is fully God. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If Jesus is to be fully God, He can't be just the Son part. In other words, Jesus is really 1/3 of God and not fully God. Also, was God (The Word which was with Him and was Him) becoming flesh a deceptive illusion. Once again, Trinitarian advocates need to eventually admit that there are contradictions in this concept as well rather than boast about it being the truth and to reject it is t
@Danielezerable No contradiction!!! And what you are describing in your first sentence is a form of modelism which I do not support. The trinity teaches that God exists in three persons who share the same essence or being. What this means is that God exists in as distinct and co-equal persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but they share a fully divine essence or being, such as uncreatedness, eternality, simplicity (non-composite or indivisible), immutability and so forth....
@Danielezerable Thus, in God, the attributes of his essence are fully shared by three persons, making each person fully God.
Yet, the three persons are distinct. The Father is neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit; the Son is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son.
@Danielezerable Being describes what the persons of the trinity Fully Share....God the Father is Fully God because he possess all the attributes of deity. Jesus is fully God because he shares all the attributes of deity..the same is true for the Holy Spirit. No contradiction. You simply misunderstand the trinity. And Echad denotes composite unity of one, not as you say singularity of one. Once again..no contradiction...:)
@scooner67 Um, yes it DOES! Being does NOT mean they possess the attriubutes of deity, being means they ARE the deity! Now, you are saying that they are each LESSER than God! =o CONTRADICTION!
@scooner67 The word "TRINITY" is not in the Bible and is a man made doctrine institutionalized by the Roman Catholic church, subsequently, the Roman Catholic church being pagan adopted pagan customs and practices from the Romans, Egypt, Greece and Babylon. The trinity was practiced by pagan worshipers of false gods with three heads. You need to study your history and the origination of the paganism of the trinity. Jesus is the SON OF GOD, NOT GOD JEHOVAH. Convoluted logic equals trinity.
@Jehovahourgod Not that history is not important, but what can history tell us that biblical exegesis cannot regarding the nature of God? All your post demonstrates is your opposition to trinitarian understanding, but in no way refutes what trinitarian's believe regarding the nature of God. Present an argument, rather than your dogmatic assertions built upon your opinion!!!
Well then you do not believe in God of the Bible? It does not seem so. When you claim that the truth came to us by man, but a true follower of Christ KNOWS that the Lord will never leave us and the gates of hell will not prevail but for you it has for they are all heresies and to you and all that beieve this run very close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit for the Holy Spirit leads us in all truths to him who does the will of the Father.Empty your pride for Christ is the head of the Church not man.
Isn't the King James Bible the most accurate because it was traslated from the most original manuscripts? I think it is part of the bible and has been taken out of the new age bibles as a conspiracy against truth. Truth is not popular.
No, that's not true. However, the KJV has some beautiful renditions of both the Hebrew and Greek. However, something is *always* lost in translation, no matter how carefully done. It is best to get to the Greek and Hebrew yourself.
"Because the Lord revealed to Joseph certain truths that the original authors had once recorded, the Joseph Smith Translation is unlike any other Bible translation in the world. In this sense, the word translation is used in a broader and different way than usual, for Josephs translation was more revelation than literal translation from one language into another."
"by the Syrian Church of Antioch which produced eminent scholarship; by the Italic Church in northern Italy; and also at the same time by the Gallic Church in southern France and by the Celtic Church in Great Britain; by the pre-Waldensian, the Waldensian, and the churches of the Reformation. This first stream appears, with very little change, in the Protestant Bibles of many languages, and in English, in that Bible known as the King James Version," Our Authorized Version Vindicated
I also believe that the trinity is contradictory but I believe that the Holy Ghost is not God but rather it is an omnipresent Ghost/Spirit of Jesus and the Father that was available as an independent agent only at the beginning of the world and before that it existed in Jesus and the father. Showing That Jesus was ready to die for us before we even sinned.
I went to the LDS websight and looked through the JS translation and the King James versions on the web sight and they do not correct the so called forgery? Im sure you have a great excuse for this!
"...down through the centuries there were only two streams of manuscripts. The first stream which carried the Received Text in Hebrew and Greek,began with the Apostolic churches,and reappearing at intervals down the Christian Era among enlightened believers,was protected by the wisdom and scholarship of the pure church in her different phases; by such as the church at Pella in Palestine where the Christians fled, when in 70 A.D. the Romans destroyed Jerusalem;" Our Authorized Version Vindicated
The Catholic church is only a fasad and fraud of the truth. The first Christians were killed and the authority taken away with that. The foundation of Apostles was gone leaving the church to fall. Ephesians 2:20 and no more revelations. Then Constantine changes the baptism to infants and mixes true christianity with Mithraism and created the Universal church. Isaiah 24:5
Peter had to restore his authority to Joseph Smith June 1843 and Oliver Cowdery. See Acts 3:21,Revelations 14:6-7
I agree the catholic church is the roman empire with added political power. But Joseph Smith got his power from them. Through the knights Templar, the milita of the pope. It's all so mixed in, The purest protestant church in terms of doctrine is the Historic Adventist doctrine.
Joseph Smith was no Catholic. Joseph Smith was not a protestant. I'm not sure what you mean by "Joseph got his power from 'them.'
Joseph's whole purpose in the prayer was to seek the truth. He didn't ask for the calling. Joseph Smith was chosen and called in an answer to that prayer.
If the Protestant who did return to several of the purer doctrines concerning Christ, but were excommunicated by the Pope, who has NOT authority from God, then the Protestants have no leg to stand on.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Joseph branched of From one of their societies that meet in secret and their activities are widely unknown by people. Like the Knights Templar or the Jesuits.
With regard to the many earlier comments about Constantine, does all the evidence need to be exculpatory in regard to the state interferring with church doctrine? I should think his very prescence in the church position as first christian emperor. Given that he was the author in the murder of his own wife and son, and only heaven knows what else, that would seem to slam the door on the church's claim to apostolic succession.
It's like creating a priesthood office for Satan, because frankly if you don't, he's revoking your breathing privilidges. Well they went ahead and dit it, and now catholics don't know if their solstice is comin or goin.
The Council of Constantinople in 381 CE added the third god--the Holy Ghost. Why did emperors Constantine and Theodosius intervene in the affairs of the Catholic Church?--to unify their realm.
In summary: Council of Nicea 325 CE formulated a duality of the Father and son.
Council of Constantinople 381 CE added a third deity, trinity, Father, Son, & Holy Ghost. Centuries later, creeds (not Bible) formulated the Trinity doctrine.
Well, because the Catholic Church got involved in politics, Constantine had the right to tell the church what to believe--that the Father and Son are the Same, a duality. Emperor Theodosius at another council (about 50 yrs later?) added the Holy Ghost as the 3rd God. They HAD to use creeds, because the Trinity is NOT supported by Scripture. (Pagan Constantine estab. a duality, not a trinity.)
The Trinity gave rise to Mary worship. She's the Mother of God.
Lactantius' idea didn't stick. The Bible states that angels are creations and messengers of God. Not even the same kind of creature as man. How bout the Dead Sea Scolls? They don't show any of the doctrinal changes that Joseph wrote in his retranslation of the Bible. I think it's amazing the Scrolls were found at the same time Israel became a nation, this "is" the work of God, not a story of forever hidden and sealed plates. Faith does include "evidence".
That doesn't mean it was false, it just means mankind didn't accept it. Gee, the same happens today with God's prophets eh? GRIN! And the scrolls have innumerable parallels with the Book of Mormon, don't go there uninformed. The very FACT that they were hidden and sealed is PRECISELY a Book of Mormon theme. Writing on metal also, etc.
Hey, I haven't gone anywhere uninformed, I said the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible doesn't agree with the Scrolls. And faith is "evidence" of things not seen. This means there should be recongizable proof, not deep seeded comments and research done by others that most don't understand and probably never will understand.
Omi, Check these out. Gen. 50:24-33 Joseph prophecies of his own coming. Ex. 33:20, John 1:18, John 1:19, I John 4:12. These changes tell how Joseph was able to be in the presence of God without being destroyed.
We can make Book of Mormon comparisons with the Bible all day long since there are many verses in it from the Bible. The JS translation of the Bible is the odd one out.
"We can make Book of Mormon comparisons with the Bible all day long since there are many verses in it from the Bible"
that was my original point. Compare the Isaiah chapters in the BOM with the dead sea scrolls and then compare them to KJV bible. let me know which two match up better!
dead sea scrolls even mention a restoration through a man named ben-joseph... hmmm joseph smith? also the scrolls point out a pre-existence and two different levels of authority to carry out all ordinances etc.. aaronic and melchezidec. God sitting in a council with other Gods.... three separate beings in the Godhead and all sorts of stuff.....
There are no references to Joseph Smith in the scrolls. That is an interpretation. The Messiah Ben Joseph legend itself is tricky and we have to tread *very* carefully on that. It will be speculation at best. I have already trodden that path. It's interesting, but not what the scrolls actually say themselves.
Where exactly are you getting all this "information" from? These arguments about Constantine forcing the trinity on the church are absolutely asinine! I find it really quite odd that a church that had been violently persecuated for 300 years would willingly have something forced upon it.
So, if the idea that Jesus and Satan are brothers is so offensive, do you really think your doctrine that an all loving and mighty God who created ALL things, is so loving as to actually create Satan, the ultimate evil? Is that doctrine you espouse any clearer and correct? You misunderstand the LDS doctrine, which is also an early Christian doctrine. Lactantius certainly believed Satan and Jesus were brothers, among one of the early Christians.
Really? So Constantine was a loving Christian? Have you even ***read*** how Constantine forced the councils of the church to come to order and quit arguing, and fighting amongst themselves?
BackyardProfessor, you make me laugh. Where in my comment did I say Constantine was a loving Christian? The fact was that Constantine made the council come to an agreement because it was threatening to split his empire and if Constantine had such a vested interest in forcing the Trinity on the church why did Arianism become the dominant view the the decades after Nicea?
I became an athiest last year and ive never felt better :)
fannyslapper33 3 months ago
@scooner67 No, that is a contradiction. You have now divided them into three SEPARATE BEINGS! Are they three parts or are they three Gods? Simply sharing the attributes of deity is splitting them into three and saying that one truly isn't fully God. One must be knocked out of God. And, no, look it up in a Hebrew Lexicon: echad means one (number).
Danielezerable 6 months ago
@Danielezerable In no way have I divided God into three separate "beings", that would be tritheism. However I do recognize how such categorical errors are made. Being describes What something is...it's nature....personal distinctions describe Who someone is. In scripture it is clear that Jesus is distinct from the father, but we know from scripture He shares His divine nature.
scooner67 6 months ago
@Danielezerable //And, no, look it up in a Hebrew Lexicon: echad means one (number).// Then please explain why Jesus quoted Deut 6:4 in Mk 12:29 and chose the "unified oneness" word "hen" which is the same word used by Jesus in Mt 19:5, "the two shall become one (hen) flesh. It is significant that Jesus did not use "mono" in Mk 12:29. The word "hen" directly corresponds to "echad" which was used in Deut 6:4.
scooner67 6 months ago
@Danielezerable
Both texts used "unified oneness" words rather than absolute numeric oneness to the exclusion of all others.
scooner67 6 months ago
@scooner67 Do you know where the Father was when Jesus hung on the tree?
Danielezerable 6 months ago
@Danielezerable Be happy to answer that, but first explain Jesus usage of the word "hen" as it relates to Deut 6:4 in Mk 12:29 and Mt 19:5
scooner67 6 months ago
@scooner67
"explain Jesus usage of the word 'hen' as it relates to Deut 6:4 in Mk 12:29 and Mt 19:5"
He used "heis" meaning "one".
Danielezerable 6 months ago
Wow! How arrogant. " Hear, Oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One" Deut. 6:4, Mark 12:29, See also John 14:9, 10-30, Eph. 4:6, 4:5-7. See Strong's Concordance "son" in NT # 5207 nihoah pleasing, soothing, sweet aroma Hebraically the spirit or essence, or the voice of the principles (Word of God) Bible & Einstein claim 10 dimensions. Yeshua was the 3 dimensional manifestation. Without the Hebrew Roots we can come up with all kinds of crazy meanings, including plural gods.
GmaM11 7 months ago
I created a couple of interesting stories with significant morals about life. One of them happens to be a sophisticated D&D campaign that is a traditional historical fantasy combining the references of ancient Europe, Medieval and Post-Medieval Europe, and Asia between 2000 BC and AD 1700. I was surprised that I can actually provide useful messages about the Middle Ages and why they sucked.
SirGabriel2076 7 months ago
Is there a quote of joseph smith saying that there are three gods?
tideymax7 9 months ago
@tideymax7 Thank God, we now have access to many of the original documents through Dead Sea Scrolls and very ancient Torah scrolls. It is phenomenal how faithfully these men kept the text. There are no real faithful translations of anything, most are transliterations. I have read three different translations of Les Mis which come from different points of view, same as the Bible. But, of course, to be faithful to meanings it must have been written in KJ English a century before he was born.
GmaM11 7 months ago
yup and you believe god had a sky daddy as well gee that make 4
martlut 10 months ago
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“But even if we or an angel from heaven (moroni) should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, curse be on him!” Galatians 1:6-9 Mormon’s are not prepared for the coming apocalypse, Huge Sorrow will be to the mormon who refuse to see the truth, You have been warned your fall will be great. Read the BIBLE ONLY!
imationqwest 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
actually God was a man on this planet and the first Man to be resurrected on this planet too.
Most of the rest of what you write is GARBAGE!
omiolo 1 year ago
As for getting back into the Academy after his mission, he said, "There's no guarantee, but pretty much all [Latter-day Saints] in good standing come back [after their missions] and are accepted with no problem.
"I'm not too worried about getting back in. My grades are pretty good. Conduct-wise, I don't have any problems."
omiolo 1 year ago
For all cadets, the requirements to be admitted to the Air Force Academy are rigorous. Then once they arrive, they face demands not common among their non-AFA peers.
For more than 100 LDS cadets currently enrolled, it can be even more challenging, such as the requirements to serve a mission.
omiolo 1 year ago
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Jesus was a DUAL person. God and Christ yoked together in the self-same person. they were not seperate from each other until the garden of gethsemane and Christ went to the cross alone. God and Christ did not stay seperated, they were re-united on resurrection day
dieselcowboy777 2 years ago
I hope this gets a good constructive conversation going....I'm going to go view a couple of your other videos..I'm sure I will feel the compulsion to reply....it's in my nature.
scooner67 2 years ago
Wow...the level ignorance of how orthodoxy and the creeds were formed is absolutely astonishing. The trinity is based clearly on the implications of the subject object relationship that exist between the Father and the Son and based on sola scriptura and the stricted observence of monotheism. Trinitians are monotheist in the strict sense that we beleive in ONE God who has reveal Himself as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Momans on the other hand are Polytheist as their founder taught
scooner67 2 years ago
You're wrong, but don't let that stop you from believing falsehoods about Mormons. You don't know what polytheism is or means do you..... It shows, I promise. And you speak of ignorance on our part eh? Pot-kettle-black......
TheBackyardProfessor 2 years ago
I can afford to be wrong now and again, but I'm not wrong when it comes to how your own prophet defined the nature of the Godhead, at best mormans are tritheistic in their understanding of God. I've spoken to mormans. listen to BYU extensively and read the writings of your prophet.....Mormans since they misunderstand the nature of God (more like tri-theism) and believe they can attain Godhood they are for all intent and purposes by definition Polytheist....I don't mean to be contentious...
scooner67 2 years ago
I don't mean to be contentious..it's just the way I see it...
scooner67 2 years ago
Maybe ignorance wasn't the best choice of words. You obviously have put a lot of thought and study into finding reasons to support your claims..so in the spirit of charity and future discussion I withdraw the contentious statement....however I do support my conclusions and if need be can support them.
scooner67 2 years ago
And I apologize for returning being a little brisk. I also will try to be civil. I would, however, enjoy seeing your interpretations. I still think there is a bit you are misunderstanding from the Mormon view.
TheBackyardProfessor 2 years ago
Um. Can't see my reply. It must of got deleted. Anyways, I look forward to having a discussion with you. And I will try and stay away from words that cause contention and stick with what will further a good discussion. Hopefully I will learn something about LDS understanding of the nature of God. Ultimately truth is what matters with the understanding I think you'd agree that it's God who has revealed Himself in space and time through Prophets, apostles and finally though Christ
scooner67 2 years ago
Now as far as my interpretation of the Bible regarding the nature of God, I start with the Shema found in Deut 6:4. It discribes Him as One. The prophets affirmed this throughout the OT. Isa 44:6-8 Here God not only affirms the fact that He alone is God by nature, but also gives insight how He gave prophets the ability to declare what was going to be. A ability that only God can do. In vs 8 God then ask a rhetorical ??? Is there any God beside Me and then answers with "I know of none....
scooner67 2 years ago
I would also like to add Isa 43:10-13. It states clearly that no Gods have been created or formed before or after Him. Now if this is true, how does LDS interprete these verse in light of LDS doctrine concerning the Godhead. I've heard mormons affirm that there is One God, yet it almost seems Tri theistic...in the sense that Father is a God and the Son is another God. Separate and distinct as to being and personhood. Is this accurate or could you help clarify????
scooner67 2 years ago
Another question I have...Do LDS affirm Monotheism...I ask this question because I've had mormons tell me they affirm the teaching that they will become Gods through exaltation. Again I ask this question within the context of Isa 43 and also 44....and what Biblical verse would you use to support such a contention that other Gods are being formed through exaltation????
scooner67 2 years ago
@scooner67
Problem with Triniatarianism: Jesus shows he is God many times. It is evident from the scriptures he is fully God. The Word was God and it became flesh. Did only 1/3 of God come?
Problem with Modalism: Jesus shows himself to be inferior to the father and prays to the father and talks to the father.
Problem with Arianism: Jesus is more than just a subordinate.
All three: man's best efforts to understand the mystery of an ununderstandable God.
Danielezerable 6 months ago
@Danielezerable The fact that Jesus demonstrates that he is God is not a problem for trinitarianism...@ all. If anything is establishes the biblical teaching in light of monotheism.
Modelism is a heresy no doubt, however the fact that Jesus subordinated himself to the father in no way leads one to the erroneous conclusion that Jesus in his person was subordinate to the father in sharing His divine nature.
Your last?? God is certainly encomprehensible but we can apprehend what he has revealed
scooner67 6 months ago
@TheBackyardProfessor Mormonism adds doctrines to the Bible. It is NOT Christianity. You say Trinity is manmade? Trinity does have contradictions, yes. So do all other existing concepts of God. Want to know why? Because He is TOO POWERFUL for us to understand!
Danielezerable 6 months ago
@Danielezerable I fail to see how the trinity is contradictory!!! It is only contradictory if you fail to see the categories which exist in the language we use to describe such revelatory concepts. So please if you will demonstrate how the trinity is indeed contradictory??
scooner67 6 months ago
@scooner67 The Trinity is contradictory because it states Jesus is fully God. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If Jesus is to be fully God, He can't be just the Son part. In other words, Jesus is really 1/3 of God and not fully God. Also, was God (The Word which was with Him and was Him) becoming flesh a deceptive illusion. Once again, Trinitarian advocates need to eventually admit that there are contradictions in this concept as well rather than boast about it being the truth and to reject it is t
Danielezerable 6 months ago
@Danielezerable No contradiction!!! And what you are describing in your first sentence is a form of modelism which I do not support. The trinity teaches that God exists in three persons who share the same essence or being. What this means is that God exists in as distinct and co-equal persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but they share a fully divine essence or being, such as uncreatedness, eternality, simplicity (non-composite or indivisible), immutability and so forth....
scooner67 6 months ago
@Danielezerable Thus, in God, the attributes of his essence are fully shared by three persons, making each person fully God.
Yet, the three persons are distinct. The Father is neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit; the Son is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son.
scooner67 6 months ago
@scooner67 That IS a contradiction! You see, if there exists three persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, then Jesus is only PART OF GOD!
Plus, it kind of contradicts this verse as well:
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Echad is the word used here and it means one (number). The LORD our God is not two or three but one...ONE!
The first sentence is what MANY trinitarians believe (almost all). That Jesus is fully God. They don't even realize it is contradictory.
Danielezerable 6 months ago
@Danielezerable Being describes what the persons of the trinity Fully Share....God the Father is Fully God because he possess all the attributes of deity. Jesus is fully God because he shares all the attributes of deity..the same is true for the Holy Spirit. No contradiction. You simply misunderstand the trinity. And Echad denotes composite unity of one, not as you say singularity of one. Once again..no contradiction...:)
scooner67 6 months ago
@scooner67 Um, yes it DOES! Being does NOT mean they possess the attriubutes of deity, being means they ARE the deity! Now, you are saying that they are each LESSER than God! =o CONTRADICTION!
Danielezerable 6 months ago
@scooner67 o forfeit salvation.
Danielezerable 6 months ago
@scooner67 The word "TRINITY" is not in the Bible and is a man made doctrine institutionalized by the Roman Catholic church, subsequently, the Roman Catholic church being pagan adopted pagan customs and practices from the Romans, Egypt, Greece and Babylon. The trinity was practiced by pagan worshipers of false gods with three heads. You need to study your history and the origination of the paganism of the trinity. Jesus is the SON OF GOD, NOT GOD JEHOVAH. Convoluted logic equals trinity.
Jehovahourgod 3 months ago
@Jehovahourgod Not that history is not important, but what can history tell us that biblical exegesis cannot regarding the nature of God? All your post demonstrates is your opposition to trinitarian understanding, but in no way refutes what trinitarian's believe regarding the nature of God. Present an argument, rather than your dogmatic assertions built upon your opinion!!!
scooner67 3 months ago
Well then you do not believe in God of the Bible? It does not seem so. When you claim that the truth came to us by man, but a true follower of Christ KNOWS that the Lord will never leave us and the gates of hell will not prevail but for you it has for they are all heresies and to you and all that beieve this run very close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit for the Holy Spirit leads us in all truths to him who does the will of the Father.Empty your pride for Christ is the head of the Church not man.
Adonimos 3 years ago 2
1 John 5:7-9
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
brigig 3 years ago
Yes, unfortunately, this is known to be a forgery.....
TheBackyardProfessor 3 years ago
Isn't the King James Bible the most accurate because it was traslated from the most original manuscripts? I think it is part of the bible and has been taken out of the new age bibles as a conspiracy against truth. Truth is not popular.
brigig 3 years ago
No, that's not true. However, the KJV has some beautiful renditions of both the Hebrew and Greek. However, something is *always* lost in translation, no matter how carefully done. It is best to get to the Greek and Hebrew yourself.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 years ago
"Because the Lord revealed to Joseph certain truths that the original authors had once recorded, the Joseph Smith Translation is unlike any other Bible translation in the world. In this sense, the word translation is used in a broader and different way than usual, for Josephs translation was more revelation than literal translation from one language into another."
Quoted from the LDS websight from the JS Bible.
Exodus314IAM 3 years ago
"by the Syrian Church of Antioch which produced eminent scholarship; by the Italic Church in northern Italy; and also at the same time by the Gallic Church in southern France and by the Celtic Church in Great Britain; by the pre-Waldensian, the Waldensian, and the churches of the Reformation. This first stream appears, with very little change, in the Protestant Bibles of many languages, and in English, in that Bible known as the King James Version," Our Authorized Version Vindicated
brigig 3 years ago
"the one which has been in use for three hundred years in the English speaking world."
Our Authorized Version Vindicated by Benjamin G. Wilkinson.
brigig 3 years ago
I also believe that the trinity is contradictory but I believe that the Holy Ghost is not God but rather it is an omnipresent Ghost/Spirit of Jesus and the Father that was available as an independent agent only at the beginning of the world and before that it existed in Jesus and the father. Showing That Jesus was ready to die for us before we even sinned.
brigig 3 years ago
I went to the LDS websight and looked through the JS translation and the King James versions on the web sight and they do not correct the so called forgery? Im sure you have a great excuse for this!
Exodus314IAM 3 years ago
"...down through the centuries there were only two streams of manuscripts. The first stream which carried the Received Text in Hebrew and Greek,began with the Apostolic churches,and reappearing at intervals down the Christian Era among enlightened believers,was protected by the wisdom and scholarship of the pure church in her different phases; by such as the church at Pella in Palestine where the Christians fled, when in 70 A.D. the Romans destroyed Jerusalem;" Our Authorized Version Vindicated
brigig 3 years ago
The Catholic church is only a fasad and fraud of the truth. The first Christians were killed and the authority taken away with that. The foundation of Apostles was gone leaving the church to fall. Ephesians 2:20 and no more revelations. Then Constantine changes the baptism to infants and mixes true christianity with Mithraism and created the Universal church. Isaiah 24:5
Peter had to restore his authority to Joseph Smith June 1843 and Oliver Cowdery. See Acts 3:21,Revelations 14:6-7
GodLovedJosephSmith 3 years ago 3
I agree the catholic church is the roman empire with added political power. But Joseph Smith got his power from them. Through the knights Templar, the milita of the pope. It's all so mixed in, The purest protestant church in terms of doctrine is the Historic Adventist doctrine.
brigig 3 years ago
Joseph Smith was no Catholic. Joseph Smith was not a protestant. I'm not sure what you mean by "Joseph got his power from 'them.'
Joseph's whole purpose in the prayer was to seek the truth. He didn't ask for the calling. Joseph Smith was chosen and called in an answer to that prayer.
If the Protestant who did return to several of the purer doctrines concerning Christ, but were excommunicated by the Pope, who has NOT authority from God, then the Protestants have no leg to stand on.
GodLovedJosephSmith 3 years ago 5
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Joseph branched of From one of their societies that meet in secret and their activities are widely unknown by people. Like the Knights Templar or the Jesuits.
brigig 3 years ago
actually no, Joseph smith wasn't affiliated with any secret societies whatsoever.
the only time Joseph smith spent was proselyting new membership into the church of Jesus Christ.
Joseph Smith was never successfully proselyted prior to his knowledge where the true Church was.
TrueChurchLDS 3 years ago 7
Can you prove it?
brigig 3 years ago
With regard to the many earlier comments about Constantine, does all the evidence need to be exculpatory in regard to the state interferring with church doctrine? I should think his very prescence in the church position as first christian emperor. Given that he was the author in the murder of his own wife and son, and only heaven knows what else, that would seem to slam the door on the church's claim to apostolic succession.
canadianbacon007 3 years ago 3
It's like creating a priesthood office for Satan, because frankly if you don't, he's revoking your breathing privilidges. Well they went ahead and dit it, and now catholics don't know if their solstice is comin or goin.
canadianbacon007 3 years ago 3
spellcheck notwithstanding
canadianbacon007 3 years ago
The Council of Constantinople in 381 CE added the third god--the Holy Ghost. Why did emperors Constantine and Theodosius intervene in the affairs of the Catholic Church?--to unify their realm.
In summary: Council of Nicea 325 CE formulated a duality of the Father and son.
Council of Constantinople 381 CE added a third deity, trinity, Father, Son, & Holy Ghost. Centuries later, creeds (not Bible) formulated the Trinity doctrine.
Roxxoxo 3 years ago
Well, because the Catholic Church got involved in politics, Constantine had the right to tell the church what to believe--that the Father and Son are the Same, a duality. Emperor Theodosius at another council (about 50 yrs later?) added the Holy Ghost as the 3rd God. They HAD to use creeds, because the Trinity is NOT supported by Scripture. (Pagan Constantine estab. a duality, not a trinity.)
The Trinity gave rise to Mary worship. She's the Mother of God.
Roxxoxo 3 years ago
A pagan Emperor had the right to dictate to the people what their scriptures were and were not? Now that's rich. What a concession!
TheBackyardProfessor 3 years ago
Lactantius' idea didn't stick. The Bible states that angels are creations and messengers of God. Not even the same kind of creature as man. How bout the Dead Sea Scolls? They don't show any of the doctrinal changes that Joseph wrote in his retranslation of the Bible. I think it's amazing the Scrolls were found at the same time Israel became a nation, this "is" the work of God, not a story of forever hidden and sealed plates. Faith does include "evidence".
paintvp 3 years ago
That doesn't mean it was false, it just means mankind didn't accept it. Gee, the same happens today with God's prophets eh? GRIN! And the scrolls have innumerable parallels with the Book of Mormon, don't go there uninformed. The very FACT that they were hidden and sealed is PRECISELY a Book of Mormon theme. Writing on metal also, etc.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 years ago
Hey, I haven't gone anywhere uninformed, I said the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible doesn't agree with the Scrolls. And faith is "evidence" of things not seen. This means there should be recongizable proof, not deep seeded comments and research done by others that most don't understand and probably never will understand.
paintvp 3 years ago
"How bout the Dead Sea Scolls? They don't show any of the doctrinal changes that Joseph wrote in his retranslation of the Bible"
I think you should compare the BOM to the dead sea scrolls before you make the erroneous assumption!
omiolo 3 years ago
OK Josephs translation of footnotes show something different.
paintvp 3 years ago
Omi, Check these out. Gen. 50:24-33 Joseph prophecies of his own coming. Ex. 33:20, John 1:18, John 1:19, I John 4:12. These changes tell how Joseph was able to be in the presence of God without being destroyed.
paintvp 3 years ago
"These changes tell how Joseph was able to be in the presence of God without being destroyed. "
yes, among other Biblical scriptures.
John 6:46
but what does this have to do with my statement?
"I think you should compare the BOM to the dead sea scrolls before you make the erroneous assumption! "
omiolo 3 years ago
We can make Book of Mormon comparisons with the Bible all day long since there are many verses in it from the Bible. The JS translation of the Bible is the odd one out.
paintvp 3 years ago
"We can make Book of Mormon comparisons with the Bible all day long since there are many verses in it from the Bible"
that was my original point. Compare the Isaiah chapters in the BOM with the dead sea scrolls and then compare them to KJV bible. let me know which two match up better!
omiolo 3 years ago
"OK Josephs translation of footnotes"
since when did JS translate footnotes?
omiolo 3 years ago
dead sea scrolls even mention a restoration through a man named ben-joseph... hmmm joseph smith? also the scrolls point out a pre-existence and two different levels of authority to carry out all ordinances etc.. aaronic and melchezidec. God sitting in a council with other Gods.... three separate beings in the Godhead and all sorts of stuff.....
glycoboy 3 years ago
"dead sea scrolls even mention a restoration through a man named ben-joseph... hmmm joseph smith?"
do you have a reference for that?
omiolo 3 years ago
There are no references to Joseph Smith in the scrolls. That is an interpretation. The Messiah Ben Joseph legend itself is tricky and we have to tread *very* carefully on that. It will be speculation at best. I have already trodden that path. It's interesting, but not what the scrolls actually say themselves.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 years ago
"There are no references to Joseph Smith in the scrolls"
what about Joseph Smith Jr., they for sure have to have the word Idaho in them??? =)
"I have already trodden that path. It's interesting, but not what the scrolls actually say themselves. "
thanks!!
omiolo 3 years ago 2
Where exactly are you getting all this "information" from? These arguments about Constantine forcing the trinity on the church are absolutely asinine! I find it really quite odd that a church that had been violently persecuated for 300 years would willingly have something forced upon it.
Lutheran84 3 years ago
I agree with you. It's also odd that the LDS church never brings up the many verses in the Bible that go directly against their doctrine.
Hey, that's why Christians are are angry. Who would not be angry with a group that changed Jesus and satan into brothers.
paintvp 3 years ago
So, if the idea that Jesus and Satan are brothers is so offensive, do you really think your doctrine that an all loving and mighty God who created ALL things, is so loving as to actually create Satan, the ultimate evil? Is that doctrine you espouse any clearer and correct? You misunderstand the LDS doctrine, which is also an early Christian doctrine. Lactantius certainly believed Satan and Jesus were brothers, among one of the early Christians.
TheBackyardProfessor 3 years ago
Really? So Constantine was a loving Christian? Have you even ***read*** how Constantine forced the councils of the church to come to order and quit arguing, and fighting amongst themselves?
TheBackyardProfessor 3 years ago
BackyardProfessor, you make me laugh. Where in my comment did I say Constantine was a loving Christian? The fact was that Constantine made the council come to an agreement because it was threatening to split his empire and if Constantine had such a vested interest in forcing the Trinity on the church why did Arianism become the dominant view the the decades after Nicea?
Lutheran84 3 years ago
Extremly Informitive!
Thank you
skyaglow 3 years ago
I had fun doing the research for this one...... for some reason - GRIN!
TheBackyardProfessor 3 years ago