Cardboard Signs Easter 2008

[bluebarron351]

What's the name of this song?

[oxlusciouslipsxo]

This one made me cry so hard when I was there ... I love you Central!!!

[fulminousalt]

--> teaching role must be limited, because they must learn first before they can teach. It's not an overall binding on women- the point of it is pastorship and teaching. Paul is basically saying in this letter, 'people must know and learn (in discipleship!) the truth before they can teach it to others'.

I hope that made sense :). I think that's fifteen posts in total, which is a whopping collection, really. Sorry, person-who-owns-this-video. I couldn't resist :P.

[fulminousalt]

when Paul says 'I urge then... that requests... be made for everyone... that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness'. It's a humility he applies to everyone, shown in direct opposition to the arrogance and wordiness of the false teachers. Quiet and submissive to the truth- i.e. receptive, not in a spirit of quarreling. So the main instruction of this passage is that a person- woman or man- must learn before they can teach.

e) Now for this! 'I do not permit -->

[fulminousalt]

God looks after us! :)

Also, please keep in mind the context of those verses. Paul was writing to a specific church about a specific incident. He was not recommending that the entire church at that time exclude women from leading. This can be seen in the fact that there were female teachers and leaders in the church at that time (look in Acts!), who Paul regularly talked to or stayed with. Lydia, for example, who had a house-church of her own. Priscilla and Aquila. Phoebe, a deaconess.

[Sunshine100]

Another beautiful message. It made me cry for their pain and for their journey of healing. Thank you for making these videos. More people need to be like you.

[henshin2005]

What's the name of the song? I really like it a lot x)

[Hannahsusername]

BWAHAHA! I love addicted to porn best.

[rootedinfaith3]

Amen. I got goose-pimples to this.

[Sergei91]

That's beautiful...but women can not be pastors....sorry.......not my word, God's word.

[Meixafuhellzman2]

Thats kinda sexist....

[Sergei91]

No that's kind of disciplined, just as a man can not be a wife, what if a man is gay and wants to be wife.....and you forbid him, is that sexist too?

Teaching and church leadership is for men....the Bible is clear about that, and other things that are for women, men can not do.

[Meixafuhellzman2]

I guess ill agree cause i'm to semi-retarded to understand what you said

[Sergei91]

You are not retarded nor semi-retarded, its just my english is not proper, forgive me.

[wtshnn77]

That's great that you feel so free to condemn (sarcasm intended). But, what you are referring to is the teaching that women are not to be the head of a church body, this does not include pastor's or teacher's within a ministry like the woman here, and might I add, a very important and vital ministry that is reaching who most would consider "unworthy" of love.

[Sergei91]

No, matter of fact the verse that i refer to doesn't even allow women to speak in church, it says if a woman has a question or something to say, she should wait till service is over and is to ask her husband at home......so please don't make me into a teacher of the law...this is Christ's word not mine...open Corinthians and read...don't twist the Bible

[fulminousalt]

So yes. Make sure you're taking it in context. What Paul does and says is not widely applicable to every corner of the world in every time.

[Sergei91]

Yeh sure, the word of God is not applicable to everybody, only to those who it's addressed, sure....by that said, salvation is only for the people at the Biblical time of Christ, not you and me, he didn't speak to us, he spoke to specific people in Palestine =)

Life groups and church is something different, even my little sister can host a life group, im talking about a church mass, show me specific verses of women teaching a group of men! i must have read the wrong Bible

[fulminousalt]

*sighs*

:)

goodness. Okay, here we go.

1) The word of God is applicable to everybody if you keep it in context. One should not apply everything the bible says to every corner of your life- shellfish, rules against mildew, instructions about slaves and all, but keep in mind where it came from and who it was directed to. According to Isaiah, salvation is for everyone from all corners of the world. And yes, Christ did speak to a specific people in Palestine. But he came for the world.

[fulminousalt]

Paul on the other hand, was addressing a specific group of people, a specific church. He does this several times throughout his letters to different churches. There was a problem going on in a specific church at that time, and so he wrote a letter to that church to address that problem. It was not meant to be a blanket rule for all churches.

2) Example time! :). This one's from 1 Timothy 2:11. I'm picking this one because I heard an excellent talk about it from a theologian at Christian Union -

[fulminousalt]

--> who gave a careful and detailed exegesis on this particular passage. So, the passage says:

'A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing- if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety'. 1 Tim 2:11-15.

[fulminousalt]

Okay, let me find my notes. Sorry, I'm a little bit of a biblical scholar. It's always fascinating trying to read things in the Greek (I'm awful at it). Aha!

Okay! This could take a while- I'm kinda worried about taking all the space in the comments section :S. But here we go.

a) The 1-3 century churches had an awful predilection to lean towards either total asceticism or sexual libertinism. The church in Ephesus that Paul was addressing in my example was particularly a victim of this -->

[fulminousalt]

and so Paul was addressing a particular heresy going around at that time. The Ephesian believers were being led astray by 'false knowledge'- something similar to gnosticism which was definitely a huge threat to the early church. It taught that asceticism was right- i.e. that one should abandon marriage and childbearing, which made the family unit unstable and was definitely against the Roman law- and gave rise to endless speculation, or 'godless chatter' which Paul addresses somewhere else.

[fulminousalt]

So in his letters to Timothy, Paul addresses that particular issue and tells Timothy to lean on 'sound teaching'- to combat the 'false knowledge'- because as a pastor, he's targeting a specific issue. Now.

b) The women Paul was referring to in the church at Ephesus were wealthy and powerful women, but newcomers to the Christian faith. Thus, they were more likely to be targeted- being wealthy- and furthermore, deceived by the proponents of 'false knowledge'.

c) The phrase 'a woman should learn'

[fulminousalt]

-> is, in fact, the only imperative in that passage. The proper translation is in fact more like 'let a woman learn'- and the word used for that is the same as the word 'disciple'. These women, untrained, new Christians targeted by false believers, were attempting to teach in the church and because of their position and power were more likely to mislead the church instead. Paul mentions them earlier when he says 'Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. They want to -->

[fulminousalt]

-> be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.' So this is why Paul uses the word 'disciple'- they must become instructed and theologically trained. They must learn.

d) Moreover, Paul says 'a woman should learn in quietness and full submission'. The phrase 'quietness and full submission' is 'hezukiah' in the Greek (I hope that's how it's spelled! I was taking it down as he was saying it) which is the exact same word used in 2:2 ->

[fulminousalt]

-> a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent'. If you look at the original Greek, Paul is clearly offering a personal judgement- 'I am not at present permitting women to teach'- as in, 'they're not ready!'. He's not placing a universal ban on women. Priscilla for example, in Acts 18, teaches Apollos- 'explained to him the way of God more adequately'. Nympha, at the end of Colossians, had a church in her house (those were the only churches possible at that time).

[fulminousalt]

There are some more examples, but back to my main point. Paul uses the word 'teach' in the regular sense, but the word 'authority' he uses is a different one from the one he uses regularly- this word means 'domineer' or 'be authoritarian', or even 'possibly attempt to control men with sexual favours'- i.e. 'manipulate'. This is not to be allowed in this church with prominent women.

f) 'And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner'. Paul is hardly -->

[fulminousalt]

saying that women are completely flawed in comparison to men, because elsewhere and typically, Paul points at Adam as his creation example of the fall. His appeal to creation is to support his argument: women are not to supplant men, but join the men by learning how to teach. This can be seen in 'Adam was formed first, then Eve'. He's not saying 'It was Adam first, NOT Eve', but 'Adam first and THEN Eve', joining him. Ephesian men were Christians first, and the wealthy Ephesian women must learn-

[fulminousalt]

--> before they can think of teaching.

g) The childbearing bit? Remember that the false teachers of that time were emphasising asceticism, which shunned childbearing, the home and family relationships. Paul is affirming childbearing in this against what was happening in the church at that time.

So, as you can see, Paul is writing specifically to a situation in the Ephesian church- wealthy recent female converts who were supporting false teachers, and wanting to teach. Paul was saying their -->

[Sergei91]

Ok fellow, you don't have specific verses, lets not twist the Bible then, your theories are all cute and what not, but the text speaks for itself. [1 Timothy 2:11-12] clearly speaks to ALL people, of ALL times.....

How do i know that? cause he then says:

" For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."

[1 Timothy 2:13-14]

So don't be cute, just follow the Christ, not the anti-Christ

[fulminousalt]

Oh dear goodness. If you're not going to listen to sound exegesis but tell me I'm being cute, twisting the bible and following the anti-Christ, then you're clearly not listening to anything I've been saying. I. Just. Gave. You. Fifteen posts' worth of specific verses.

Please. Read the Greek, read the theology, read the specific biblical scholars and then argue with me. Take the Bible in context and stop brandishing one single verse at my head as if it was the whole doctrine of the living word.

[Sergei91]

Yeh that's cute...continue making up a context, making verses mean exactly what they don't....and then tell me read theology and scholars....i suppose that's what Christ said to the Jews right? He said, go read theology and scholars of universities and the likes.....you mad cute.

[fulminousalt]

*shrugs. smiles*

If all you're going to do is call me cute, I'm done here. We can agree to disagree :P. I'll keep doing what I'm doing (by the way, I'm female :P. I'm going to continue leading and teaching men, and supporting other women who do so- female pastors, vicars and so on- and who knows? I might do Bible college eventually :P).

And you can call me cute and keep doing what you're doing, and God will love us both equally, because he's that kind of God :P.

Much love to you, brother :P.

[langostalobsterchica]

@fulminousalt

Awesome! Much encouragement to you. As for the people who say woman should be listeners... in most churches women do about 90% of the work in the church. They volunteer, they minister, they do bible studies, they cook for people who are sick, they visit homes. That is the sad reality of our nation. And maybe God meant for men to fill those positions.... but until they stand up be men about it then it's up to the women to be God's hands and feet. So men, BE MEN!

[charleyNZ]

Deborah, a married prophetess, who judged Israel by herself. Yup, that's the Israel that includes the men (Judges 4:4).

Priscilla and hubby Aquila corrected Apollos' slightly screwy theology (emphasis on *they*) . Apollos being a man, of course (Acts 18:26).

Anna, a widowed prophetess who preached about Jesus to all in Jerusalem. I'm thinking 'all' would include the men.... (Luke 2:36-38).

[charleyNZ]

The Samaritan woman preached about Jesus to the *men* in her city (John 4:28-30) and many people in the city came to faith because of her testimony (John 4:39).

And btw, life group and church shouldn't be something different.... show me a verse about life groups in the Bible. You know, those small groups that meet in people's houses? Oh right, they're called CHURCHES ;P

[charleyNZ]

Whether one is teaching in a modern life group or in a modern church "service", one is still teaching fellow believers, and wielding the same responsibility to rightly handle God's word.

[iloveworship93]

that is absolutely awesome!

this is part of the reason why i go to central

hundreds of lives saved by Christ

thank you Jesus!