Womebs wrestling has potential...Awesone Kong v Gaik Kim was brillant...any Trish or Lita match was decent and niw that Awesome Kong is in the WWE she can feud with Beth Phoenix or Natalya Neidhart which would be great
I'm so happy that there's no Women Championship anymore. There are very few who deserve to hold the title that actual great women "wrestlers" have held in the past. The Divas Championship serves the talentless "divas" right.
WWE did it once when Lita and Trish were the first women to main event RAW without any guys as a part of the match. December 6, 2004--first and last time from the looks of it...and they took the time to build that storyline together, almost over the course of a year.
the only place womens wrestling is treated like a sport is Japan as usual. they just bring it better than some of the men. Mexico would rather dress some old guy up then have real womens wrestling.
The womesn's divison as improved in 2010 and 2011, they divas that can wrestle are going after the title and the bellas and kelly kelly aren't, I think the belt is stupid lookin' but you can tell they are putting more effort into the divison.
Katrina Waters [Nikita,Katie Lea] is a genuinlly good wrestler. WWE did not use her right. I remember watching her have some good matches against a number of male wrestlers in the FWA a few years ago.
Trish was great but lets be real here. The only reason she was the best was because her compation could wrestle for real also. Molly holly, Victoria, Mickie James, Lita, Jackie could all kick ass and take names. Sherri Martel was great but had no compation. Molah was the same way, but she was the first to be great. She had no real compation though. Molah, Sherri, Medusa all great but no good opponents.
news flash the only reason wwe got the fans so into the trish and mickey storyline was because the had to make mickey look like an obsessed lesbian. that was garbage!
@InfeRed5000 I don't think her character was a lesbian originally. Yes, there is that one kiss, and the "nice boobs" incident, but that was it. She was just playing mind games with Trish.
i agree why is it that WWE was so high on girls like Sable and not women like Jillian hall, and Natalya who have it all and can deliver and are real wrestlers makes me mad they have to job to girls like Bellas and Kelly kelly ughh amen they tried to make models to succesful wrestlers lmao Daizee know Maryse i'm suprised
The guy to my right is correct i think he was reffering to girls like Kelly Kelly
i'm subscribing you guys are the real deal saying Sable didn't start anything yes people her mark out for her in so many ways 4:39 Daizee has nice abs lol
Oh dear lord, Michelle McPlagirist and Layla's "promo" (if it could even be called that) on the 5/28 SmackDown really REALLY made me wanna shoot myself in the head...in hindsight, I should've muted the TV and shielded my eyes.
The milestone women in WWE were 1. Fabulous Moolah 2. Wendi Richter 3. Alundra Blayze 4. Sunny-She introduced the glamourous side 5. Sable 6. Chyna 7. Lita 8. Trish Stratus 9. Beth Phoenix/MickieJames/Melina.
I tried to respond, but for some reason my comment wasn't posted. My point about Trish is that from a business POV, she's the greatest. Most popular, made the most money, highest ratings, etc.
So internet tough guys like "RPenta" can bitch and moan that his favorites were overlooked in favor of the golden girl, if that's what you want to call her. But Trish holds all the monetary records, which are the only ones that matter.
Look at wrestling for what it really is. A business.
@drumer8998 Monetary records only matter to the WWE. I'm sure its a business but WWE isn't the only business around. Well, if the only wrestling you watch is on TV.
Well, WWE is right then. No offense to wrestling fans, but many of you can't see the big picture. It's not a real sport, nobody actually wins matches or titles. Even the best "workers" in the business would get killed in a MMA fight.
Being a great pro wrestler gets no respect from most people. So the only true measure of success is how much money you made for yourself and your employer.
It's just entertainment, popularity is the most important thing. Don't take it so seriously.
@drumer8998 being a great pro wrestler DOES get respect from people who see pro wrestling in a different light, well at least not the way you and many people do. Because if we use your logic, every other former womens' legend gets shitted on (WWF too of course) by trish because she was the most marketable and recognizable female wrestler in the tenure of her company.
I'm not denying her success as that is fucking obvious considering her background prior to wrestling.
Geez, calm down. My whole point is that in real sports, we can figure out who is the best by their performance.
But in a scripted sport, you cannot do this, since not everybody is going to agree on who the best wrestler is. You might think somebody like Bret Hart is the best. But somebody else might find him boring as hell. Perception is reality.
Wrestling is a work. Whoever sells the most wins. Everything else is a matter of opinion. That's all I'll say.
@drumer8998 I was never angry to begin with. I don't know where you are getting that.
Wrestling isn't necessarily about merchandising or the way McMahon made you believe it, which is the be all and end all of wrestling-dom. Why are they recognizing a guy like Inoki and inducting him in their hall of fame?
Sure the wrestling world is larger than ones' perception, which is why those who do know wrestling see it beyond who trish is. Just because you choose to ignore doesn't mean you know more.
Well, usually when somebody drops the F bomb, that means they are mad. My mistake.
I guess we won't agree on this. My whole point is that in real sports, the best athletes make the most money. But in wrestling, popularity and charisma is most important. Being a great worker doesn't pay the bills. Don't act like I'm brainwashed by Vince McMahon. Those are facts.
As for Inoki. I'm no expert, but isn't he considered as big as Hogan in Japan? That's why they are inducting him.
and u cant compare pro wrestling to sports cuz its not a sport its entertainment u have to compare it to other forms of entertainment music movies n esp television ur saying real sports as if wrestling a fake sport instead of a form of athletic theatre
music is entertainment but yet there are good singers n bad ones sometimes bad singing sells more then the good ones look at britney sprears!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's true, but Trish was actually good. I'm not some big wrestling fan. So I'm not going to pretend to know alot of these women that are brought up. All I know is that when I used to watch it, I loved watching her. Didn't care much for the other women.
Many of my buddies are not wrestling fans at all, and they have actually heard of Trish. Which shows you how much more popular and famous she is than the other divas. That was pretty much my whole point in the first place.
i agree in the end in ALL flieds talent always rises to the top going back to my spears example where is she today ? so though she was popular doesnt equal talented but i agree with u trish was talented
Don't be so sure the best workers would get killed in an MMA fight, they have plenty of jabronis in UFC--I have no doubt that Lou Thesz, Harley Race, Bruno, Billy Robinson and Karl Gotch could stretch them.
Almost everything is a business; so is baseball; so is pro hockey and the NFL--so is the team that takes in the most cash the best at performance? I don't think so--I give Trish credit for what Trish was good at; but being the "greatest women's wrestler" is sure not one of them.
How many of her fans go around saying Trish is the best technical wrestler ever? I have honestly not seen many of them say that. When they call her the best, it's more from a business and entertainment perspective. In the world of wrestling, she is the most successful and famous woman. You seem to take that personally for some reason. Get over it. She's not even in WWE anymore. Why don't you complain about how much the current women suck instead?
Why don't you get over using the cliche, "get over it"?
How many of her fans say she is the best? After my first few months back following pro wrestling about a year and a half ago, I stopped trying to figure that out since it was so many.
No Trish is not in WWE anymore, she just returns every so often to beat their greatest heel, Beth Phoenix.
You really have alot of "balls" to run around the internet all day bashing Trish and making fun of anybody that sticks up for her. You a virgin by any chance? Don't worry, sooner or later WWE will have a new "golden girl", and you probably won't see Trish anymore. I just hope you are consistent and bash them too.
I know; it takes balls to stand up to the idiots, trolls, women haters, and WWE marks that are all over the net. As to my virginity. . .I lost mine while you were in diapers--which may or may not have been long ago now that I think of it.
I am consistent: read my comments on that no talent bimbo Kelly Kelly.
I know; it takes balls to stand up to the idiots, trolls, women haters, and WWE marks that are all over the net. As to my virginity. . .I lost mine while you were in diapers--which may or may not have been long ago now that I think of it.
I am consistent: read my comments on that no talent bimbo Kelly Kelly.
Well, at least now you are sort of making sense, and not just bashing her randomly. I don't see why you get so upset if WWE does favor Trish though. She's a beautiful, classy gal with alot of charisma, and she did work hard to be good in the ring. So what if WWE kisses her ass? The other women she worked with have no problem with her, and she has never bashed anybody in public. Her showing up once a year is just supposed to be for fun. Some people take wrestling way too seriously.
Why don't you get over using the cliche, "get over it"?
How many of her fans say she is the best? After my first few months back following pro wrestling about a year and a half ago, I stopped trying to figure that out since it was so many.
No Trish is not in WWE anymore, she just returns every so often to beat their greatest heel, Beth Phoenix.
You know how I know Trish is the best? She's the only one that ever comes up. Even people that dislike her can't stop talking about her. The people that knock her are far more obnoxious than the people that "overrate" her.
Trish is a millionare, and is still very succesful in the REAL world. The funniest comment here is by the idiot that wants to "confront" her in public to see if she thinks she is better at fake fighting than women most people have never heard of. That will show her!!!
best doesn't mean most known because she was on the most available wrestling TV show. I don't knock her success as being the face of the womens' division in her prime. But when you actually get to the wrestling aspect which everyone just dodges because they can't justify her that way. People who have seen Joshi, female lucha libre or even Shimmer see what real talent and ability is about. Its like saying you've seen wrestling when all you've ever watched was american TV wrestling all your life.
daizee haze is BOTH the prettiest girl ive EVER seen in my ENTIRE life....AND....1 of THE MOST talented ladies/womens wrestler on earth!!!!!...i STILL cannot believe that wwecw &/or tna havent signed her 2 a "FULL-TIME" contract!!!!!
I agree. Daizee matches well with some of the best indies has to offer and developing as well. Vinnie Mac won't know how to market her to the fans and she'd be lost in the shuffle trying to get a good match with random Diva winner who doesn't even know how to move in the ring.
Trish Stratus is great BECAUSE - 1. Her transformation was completed in front of the fans. 2. She invested time becomming a better in-ring worker/competitor. 3. She was charismatic. AND 4. Trish (and her fellow women's wrestlers) legitimized women's wrestling - for example, where was TNA's women's division before Trish Stratus? Exactly. Where was the interest in women's wrestling BEFORE Trish Stratus? Potato sacks, screaming women, bra & panties, etc. Please.
Why do Trish marks love to engage in revisionist history-wasn't Trish Stratus once called the biggest slut on RAW by Shelton Benjamin? Wasn't the women's divsion about to have a series of matches between Chyna and Lita? The Trish marks always have to make Stratus into the savior of the women's divsion--when what she mostly did is crowd out--Jazz, Jacqueline, Molly, Victoria, and even Lita to second banana.
Where was TNA's womens' wrestling before Trish? In the INDIES of course! And if you want to get more specific, Japan was light years ahead redefining womens' wrestling before Trish was lacing her boots. If anything the only thing you succeeded explaining was how marketable Trish was for Vince's wrestling show for the female division which they didn't have anyone to market then.
They even have to job out the Glamazon to Trish Stratus--why? Trish as wrested 2x in about 3 years--was Don Vinnie going to lose money if her top heel beat the "Toronto Tornado"? All that did is weaken Beth's dominance persona.
I hope someone, somewhere (hope its me) gets to ask Stratus in public: do you think you were as great a wrestler as Wendi, Madusa, and most of all Bull Nakano. I can bet you Debbie Miceli will be interested in that answer.
The point is, women's wrestling pre-Trish was scarce. Trish's contribution was that she gained noteriety and made women's wrestling visible. Sure it was in the indies, but Trish led the way to gaining exposure in the biggest international wrestling company. From this, Trish Stratus argualy inspired TNA to create a women's division and championship. And when Trish retired, WWE dropped the ball and TNA picked it up. Which is a shame considering WWE talent.
@Bobbyjames2009 Are you kiding me? Not as marketed correctly like Vinnie Mac did but Luna, Madusa and attempts of Bull Nakano and akira hokuto showed what womens' wrestling was all about. No one paid attention because it wasn't marketed as PUPPIES, Tits and Ass or Diva search contests. Trish was the face of the WWE universe women's division but the wrestling community? HELL NO. And if you're wondering, TNA got professionals and not entirely models. Trinity was there in the beginning.
No I'm not kidding you. I love women like Luna, Bull Nakano, Madusa, Jacqueline, Jazz, Victoria, Beth Phoenix, Mickie James, Molly Holly, etc. But you look back at women's wrestling history and there are milestone women: 1. Fabulous Moolah, 2. Wendi Richter, 3. Sable, 4. Chyna, 5. Trish Stratus. In my opinion WWE has the next milestone girl, Natalya. (If I had more character count available, I'd go into detail).
@Bobbyjames2009 I'm not surprised about your pick for Natalya as I'm a big fan of hers as well. She's a complete natural, being part of wrestling family and having gone everywhere to prove her talents. In fact Smackdown has most of the wrestlers in the company at the moment with RAW stuck with mostly divas.
The milestone women you seem to point out are WWE universe related, ones that have been proven with names alone. But I digress in terms of the actual wrestling, others have proven better.
I agree 100% with this video. The thing that gets me about Trish Stratus is that some of her fans swear she is the best female wrestler when she is far from it. I respect that she improved her in ring abilities but like you mention when she got in the ring with real female wrestlers she was botching moves left and right, except when she got in the ring with Lita who made her look good each time they got in the ring with each other. Its such a shame that Molly, Jazz, Tara, Lita don't get credit.
I hate to say it, but Trish got the push because her persona was the most marketable of the women. Lita was a great wrestler and she'll be a WWE HOF'er, but her "alterna-chick" look wasn't as marketable to a mass audience. Jazz was a snarling badass, Victoria was nuts, and Molly was a prude/bitch, none of which lent themselves well to being the focal point of the Women's division. Vince went with the one who was going to make him the most money.
Molly DEFINITELY doesn't get enough credit. FACT: Guess who was teaching the new divas in the WWE around the mid 2000's how to break in? She was all about the wrestling aspect while her more popular peers just did their thing in front of the camera.
I have been asking Eric to do a Roundtable just on joshi but to no avail--to other fans of women's wrestling please email him at the WR site--and show some love, respect, and honor for Jackie Sato, Jumbo Hori, Jaguar Yokota, The Crush Gals, The Bomb Angels, Dump Matsumoto, Bull Nakano, Akira Hokuto, Manami Toyota, Aja Kong, Kyoko Inoue and the rest of the greats.
What kind of a guy is Russo? Well, in one interview he responds to comments concerning the infamous "crucifixion" scene done by the Undertaker years ago. Russo said (excuse me while I get my barf bag ready) he said that it was not until he became a born again Christian that he realized how offensive those scenes could be; this from a guy who is Italian from a Catholic family--sorry little Don Vinnie, I don't buy that.
Negative attitudes toward women in wrestling have always existed and always will. Women like Madusa and Bull Nakano made strides but if anything or anyone hurt the credibility of women in wrestling in modern times, it was Vince Russo and the era he helped bring in. Russo has admitted even today that women should not be wrestling and he is not a fan of wrestling in women.
RSXemperor, I have created a list that gives justice to those great women. It covers women wrestlers, divas, valets, pioneers, champions and sex symbols. The six catergories are impact on the business, charisma, a great character, wrestling abilty, "overness" with the crowd and sex appeal. I twill be a top 50 list, of the greatest women of pro wrestling. Including the 60's-2009, will be showcased. I hope you will enjoy it and maybe give me some feedback on what you thought about it. Lets begin.
I'm glad you liked it. Also, I should've stated, that the list covers women wrestlers, valets, sex symbols, champions, pioneers, and divas. There are six caterogories that are the reasons why, the women were placed like that. They are the women's impact on wrestling, charisma, "overness" with the crowd, wrestling ability, mic skills, and having a great gimmick. Perhaps now, you could look at the list again, and you might have a different opinion, about your comments.
@lettersfromaboy Yeah I see what you mean now. Eventhough Candice wasn't a technical artist, she has been more over than Jillian and Natalya. And Daizee is an awesome wrestler but she is indy circuit so she builds a lot of other girls up rather than beat them like Sara Del Rey or Ms Chif. So I understand your list better..
I only meant she isn't in WWE which is most paid attention to in today's wrestling world.
And she isn't with TNA anymore, but she did kinda cross over to TV when ROH got a deal so she's not AS indy but that's all I meant is that you wouldn't see her on TV as much as other women.
How in the living hell (to quote the Rock) is Trish Stratus on a list of pro wrestling women ahead not only of much better contemporaries like Awesome Kong and Mickie James and Sara Del Rey--but Madusa and Bull Nakano herself? Have you been in the gimmick bag of the Iron Shiek, you jabroni?
I should of stated, who would be on this list and why they are placed like this. It is all of the women who have shaped, influenced, and impacted pro wrestling. It is filled with women wrestlers, valets, divas, champions, pioneers and sex symbols. The six catergories I chose were their impact on wrestling, wrestling ability, charisma, "overness" with the crowd, mic skills, and a great gimmick. Some fitted all of these catergories, while others did not. Maybe now, you can look at the list again.
I looked at the list again; my comment still stands; Trish Stratus was very over with the WWE fans and had charisma and pretty good on the mike--as to wrestling ability she was pretty good and really had no gimmick--your list is a mishmash; maybe you need to break it down.
Well I still disagree with you on this. I think that this is the most comprehensive and accurate lists ever created. You know why, because Trish isn't #1? It may have been the WWE mark thing to do-to put her at #1, but I am not a WWE mark. I just think that your original comment, implies that Trish wasn't a great wrestler. Well that might be true, because of the other great women, you mentioned with Trish. However, it takes more than wrestling ability to become a success in wrestling. Agreed?
It does; and you would have to give enormous credit to popularity and charisma to have Stratus so far up in the list-oh, you did not make Trish #1--just #2-how nice.
As a wrestler, she was far behind many on your own list; she was popular pushed like crazy by WWE publicity machine--pushed over many much better wrestlers-including Molly Holly.
I think that Trish improvd greatly in the ring. Certainly, she is not on the level as a Molly, as far as ability, but she did get better. And as I said, that is why a pro wrestling list, is always going to have similar catergories like the one I have. And there are going to be people who will just focus on the wrestler's wrestling. However, once again, it takes more than that. Some times is doesn't but more than other times it does. Agreed?
Hey trish is fuckin amazning! She's done a lot more than just wrestling now days and i think she is just as great as Molly. Why do you think that she isn't? Just out of curiousity?
Molly was great, I wish she'd come back. But yes, Trish is still very good, I think today, if they were both matched up, Trish has caught up to Molly's level, and maybe even passed it.
Before I say anything else, I am a die-hard Molly Holly fan. That said, I can understand why Trish is ranked higher, because Trish was a more "complete" performer. Molly was a MUCH better wrestler, but she lacked in other areas.
Molly changed personas too much to establish "a great gimmick". She was usually too soft-spoken on the mic. When she tried to sound angry, she came off as unintentionally ridiculous. She actually lost "overness" as time went on and wound up a jobber.
Overall, it's a good list. Most of the women on there belonged. The only one I'd swap out would be Lillian Garcia, who I didn't think merited a place on the list. I probably would replace her with someone a little more old school, like Mildred Burke or Vivian Vachon.
As for the order, it would take too long to go into detail. For example, I would have rated Lita and Missy Hyatt higher, and I would have rated Molly Holly and Gail Kim lower.
Interesting, your comments, and I thank you for them. I should point out that I am not familar with those wrestlers. Although I'm sure they were great. The reason why Lillian was ranked so high, is because she was the modern era's announcer and the first female, in a long term fashion, to be successful as a announcer.
She was very charismatic, when she wanted to be and was over with the fans, thanks to her superb voice and energy.
I don't blame you for not hearing of them. Mildred Burke was the first big female superstar in wrestling, before even Moolah. Vivian Vachon was one of the toughest women ever (her brothers were Mad Dog and Butcher Vachon), but is probably better known today for being Luna's aunt.
yeah but its if you think about it, she just did her job well enough to keep it. It wasn't like her position was at risk at being taken by talented up and coming announcers. Sure she was able to add to her resume her singing career but that is about it.
The reason why Molly is so high, is because she was flawless in the ring. She is the greatest female wrestler in hidtory and was a great heel. As for Gail Kim, she single handedly, started a women's division in TNA. She gets credit for that, simply because she was the one true woman wrestler there. Thanks to her, there is a women's division in TNA. Also, she is a great heel and wrestler.
I love Molly Holly and respect her a lot; but in the WWE, Bull Nakano was the greatest wrestling diva ever--I would put Molly as maybe #2--as much as I respect Wendi Richter and Victoria--and the Jumping Bomb Angels were fabulous women wrestlers.
Lita was a good wrestler and the most exciting one I have seen in WWE;
lettersfromaboy: I think Jaguar Yokota or Akira Hokuto were the greatest women wrestlers of all time.
I'd say Jaguar. She's still around but the list of her students include greats like Manami Toyota and Aja Kong. She helped define what Joshi wrestling would be with what she did in the 80's and blossomed talent to bring out her vision in the 90's and beyond. But to be even more fair, Jaguar is beyond gender when it comes to mention of best wrestlers of all time.
I thought that Missy was great, but Elizabeth, Baby Doll and Precious, had more charisma and more memorable roles as valets, then Missy. I knew that Lita would be controversal. I just think that on popularity, charisma and looks alone, Torrie has her edged out. Lita was great, in every aspect, but Torrie was more popular. Agreed?
RPenta- I am enjoying this debate. I must say that "impact" and "influence" are simlar words and not so similar words. In my view, impact means, contribution. Like drawing power, in terms of money, many times as champion and the additional fans, that the wrestler brought to the company. Influence, to me means, recognition by the peers and by the fans. I think that Candice, Mickie, Torrie Wilson, Ivory, The Dudleys, Rikishi and Bret Hart-have mentioned Trish's impact and influence in wrestling.
Other girls may have had her ideas, but Trish used he wit and charm to get over on the boss so her would put the divas in Tabe matches and hardcore matches and streetfights. Trish made the WWE divas almost as entertaining as the JOSHI girls in Japan. With much help from women like Victoria, Molly, Lita, Jacqueline and Jazz.
Your NOT telling me, are you, that Stratus is in the same league as a wrestler with Bull Nakano, are you? Despite the fact that she and her mark fans would have you believe she was the WWE's greatest.
Ok, I would say this. Stratus ISN'T as good as Bull Nakano.
But as a WWE Woman, yeah I feel like she did more. All Bull ever got to do in WWE is build up Madusa...
Bull COULD HAVE did more, if WWE would allow it, but they didn't. I've seen Bull in Japan and even her work in America was great but she wasn't given a chance to do anything that the other Women in America weren't already doing, Ya know?
I agree with your first statement. I cannot agree with you that she made WWE divas as entertaining as Joshi wrestlers in japan. The difference of the work, matches and skill of Joshi wrestling is to WWE Divas at their height is honestly like night and day. Do note I'm saying the wrestling aspect and not the whole Divas marketing thing.
"However, it takes more than wrestling ability to become a success in wrestling. Agreed? "
Natural charisma of course however are you gauging it on WWE's definition or global professiona definition? Trish would certainly fit the WWE definition since she was the identity of the Divas in its height. In terms of female pro wrestling in general, Jaguar Yokota has been more of an impact to the female wrestling world and Joshi wrestling.
I snuck a peek at least form number 23. This is an american WWF/E/WCW to say the least. If it were a global list Trish wouldn't appear until the 30th I'd say. But what do you expect from a guy who started watching wrestling since the early-mid 90's and asked him to compile a list from a limited amount of people he knew in which he has to put to rate them by 6 strange ass categories.
I rearranged the list and added more categories. I would love for you, to see my 50 greatest women of wrestling list. If you can, can you send me your email address, so I can send you the list?
@lettersfromaboy Nice list but why in the world is Lita 14 on your list and Torrie Wilson is 11 on your list? I'm not understanding this. but overall good list!
Well Lita was great. She was an innovator, and was a great face. I just thought that Torrie's 1st smackdowm run, was proof, that she was the better baby face. I always thought that they were equals, in terms of charisma, mic skills, popularity and ability. Looking back, I based my placement of Torrie over Lita, for popularity purposes. I just thought Torrie's smackdown run alone, was greater than Lita's popularity on Raw and overall, in the WWE. What say you?
Sorry, but I have to go with Lita on this one. Lita was a MUCH better wrestler, better on the mic, better gimmick/character ... I'll give Torrie the edge in looks, but overall, Lita was a more "complete" performer and should have been ranked higher. Torrie was exiled over on SD where it seemed like the only other woman there was Dawn Marie.
What wrestling historians have missed regarding Russo since they focus some much on the "attitude" era is his anti-woman, anti-Asian, and anti-Mexican attitudes; plus he is a major asshole. I hope TNA survives him.
TNA won't survive him. He is the one responsible for stroking Dixie's ego and telling her to make that STUPID speech to the roster a few weeks ago. As long as she has confidence in him, TNA will go no where.
Seeing as they are so intent on using the phrase Diva or Knockout maybe when they say women's division they could say "Coming up next a men's division match." No it will never happen but fuck it would make me laugh. Just watched Lacie Von Erich. Oh dear I weep for talanted wrestlers male or female
I've said it before about a hundred times, but I'll never get tired of saying it again: forget WWE, forget TNA - if you want to see women wrestlers SHINE, watch women's federations like Shimmer or Japanese feds like NEO, JWP or OZ Academy. Men's feds will NEVER take a serious approach at ladies' wrestling.. and if they do, it never lasts longer than a year - at best
some how i forgat to mention Beth Phenoix just then........fucking love her, also once on Raw Trish defended the women's championship for the main event, although i think it was the one and only time that ever happend
huh no shit.....well regardless, I think they should get rid of that "Diva's Belt" and introduce a more attractive "women's title" and take the women's matches more seriously.
i mean having 50 super models who are 90pds each fighting over an over sized purple butterfly belt.....kind of a slap in the face to all the ladies.
they need to have more, beth's, mickie's, and trish's, and less of the runner ups from the diva search
I think the "divas" today are red hot as far as wrestling ability goes. Trish Stratus is probably the best, but so many others like Victoria, Chyna, Molly Holly, Lita. My 2 favorite things, women and wrestling. However there are still alot of "pretty faces" that stink up the joint, they need to fire about 30 of there some 50 divas
This may be a little off-topic but: After watching the tributes that WWE did when Eddie Guerrero died, I remember Shawn Michaels said he and Eddie never wrestled a match together.
That got me to thinking--what women-vs.-men wrestling match might be a credible match? For example, Lita vs. Rey Mysterio, Jr.: Both had backgrounds in the Mexican Lucha Libre style, both wrestle similarly, both get pops among the fans, and the size difference I don't think would be a problem. Thoughts?Other ideas?
Yes because they get a few months of training & then thrown in the ring. It's ridiculous !! They don't have the passion for wrestling in my opinion. Especially Maria & Ashley u can c that by watching their matches !! Why can't WWE just hire some women from the indy's like Daizee, MsChif, Sara Del Ray & Portia Perez who are great wrestlers !!!
Very good discussion. I think the first thing is to separate the Sables and Sunnies from the actual athletes. The WWE used to have the T&A and wrestling-focused women differentiated but sadly that is no longer the case. The stupid fetish wrestling stereotype doesn't women's wrestling either.
I think more this type of wrestling should be plugged but the sad truth is that the general wrestling society won't watch in a long time but it won't stop me from trying!
vince mcmahon said you can turn a model into a wrestler but you cant turn a wrestler into a model. thats bad thinking and thats why the womans division is going down hill and the divas cant be taking seriously. love the interview i wish i was there talking to them i would have gave them a piece of my mind lol.
i am gonna say trish stratus was probably the best "diva" in the wwe but she was far from the best wrestler,as a matter of fact she wasnt even a wrestler she was a entertainer. thats why i get so angry with people who let the wwe play with their intelligence thinking she is a wrestler because she wasnt. the wwe pushed her far because she was a "diva" leaving the true talented like molly holly,jazz,victoria,gail kim,ivory,jacqueline on the back burner.
i really,really like this. the topic on what the women have to go through is very intresting. i kinda understand why the wwe pushes eye candy instead of true talent and i guess because thats what the audience wants so the wwe is gonna give it to them. but the wwe can try to switch that around and show the fans true talent and thats what that is really about in reality.
I think that, sadly, the end of WWE's golden era for the women was in 2004. WWE needs a MAJOR overhaul in ALL of its divisions and I think that the women's is on the bottom of that list. The best divas wrestling you're going to get in the WWE is on Smackdown...at least they're trying.
Ex-actly. In come the Diva Search girls, out go Jackie, Jazz, Nidia and Gail.
If Molly hadn't been the one breaking in the new girls, I think she would've gotten cut, too. Because of who she is, she was never going to have the overt sex appeal they wanted in a "diva", so they just buried her until she quit.
Promos aside, I think Victoria, Trish, Lita, Chyna, and Gail actually know how to wrestle and showd that you can be appreciated more with talent and looks. Even Luna, Wnedy Richter and Alundra Blayze knew how to wrestle and look good at the same time.
Also as great of a wrestler gail was, she could not work a gimmick. Her mic work was bad. TNA has some problems still in some of the model like girls they hire. Also the treatment of Kong as the res. big girl is sad. They could bring in someone her size to fight her and yet they keep putting the small girls in there. TNA is just like wwe on how they handle their girls. It's still about looks or we would have more big girls like Kong.
The problem with trish is unlike other models/girls who got their start in the big feds went into indy feds. There are a ton of women on the indys busting their butt to get where she was and she just took her money and ran. As in just worked wwe. Give back to the women busting their butt to get great so they can be in those big feds. Work the indys and get into the real passion of the bizz.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for covering women's wrestling. It's so frustrating, having seen such great women's divisions (like when WWF had Jazz, Victoria, Molly Holly, etc.) treated as a joke (God, the Divas belt makes me wanna puke). There is so much potential in both WWE and TNA, but without great storylines and some more screentime, the division becomes so boring. (I miss the psycho Mickie James character. She doesn't stand out at all nowadays).
I think jillian is like the molly holly of this generation. They were both talented and their wrestling style is kinda the same. The difference is molly holly became a womens champ. I hope jillian gets that title too.
women have it harder then men in wrestling is a tuff question to awnser. as far as a chance to be a champion, I think women have it easier. The main event players in the mens division have been the same guys forever, with a few exceptions now and then. Women have a better shot at being the top DIVA. There is no womens version of HHH who is going to stop you from being the main draw Could you imagine if Shane married Maria and she was main eventing wrestlemania Squashing someone like beth phenoix
Eric--you know I appreciate the work you do on the show--good stuff; but I have been urging you for a year to do a show just on joshi/lucha so that Jackie Sato, the Beauty Pair, Monster Ripper, Devil Masami, Megumi Kudo, Dump Matsumoto, Crush Gals, Kyoko Inoue, Manami Toyota, the LCO, Aja Kong, Jaguar Yokota, Akira Hokuto, Xochilt Hamada, the Morenos, Lady Apache, but most of all Bull Nakano and Lola Gonzalez should get some history, props, and love they deserve.
Did I mention my suggested title which I think you will like: "Why is Trish Stratus the Most Overrated Women's Professional Wrestler in History?"
PS: Don't forget three great American women of the the joshi style-maybe the best--Debby Malenko, my least favorite Madusa Miceli, and my all time favorite, Reggie Bennett.
Womebs wrestling has potential...Awesone Kong v Gaik Kim was brillant...any Trish or Lita match was decent and niw that Awesome Kong is in the WWE she can feud with Beth Phoenix or Natalya Neidhart which would be great
martinjamesglasgow 2 weeks ago
I'm so happy that there's no Women Championship anymore. There are very few who deserve to hold the title that actual great women "wrestlers" have held in the past. The Divas Championship serves the talentless "divas" right.
cartoo123 3 weeks ago
WWE did it once when Lita and Trish were the first women to main event RAW without any guys as a part of the match. December 6, 2004--first and last time from the looks of it...and they took the time to build that storyline together, almost over the course of a year.
demolitapower 5 months ago
the only place womens wrestling is treated like a sport is Japan as usual. they just bring it better than some of the men. Mexico would rather dress some old guy up then have real womens wrestling.
TheXYZcrash 1 year ago
The womesn's divison as improved in 2010 and 2011, they divas that can wrestle are going after the title and the bellas and kelly kelly aren't, I think the belt is stupid lookin' but you can tell they are putting more effort into the divison.
GCWJCTJProductions 1 year ago
The fact that the nwwl exists proves that womens wrestling isnt taken seriously!
lewisb187 1 year ago
Not an expert, haven't seen ALL, but I like these managers/wrestlers:
Sherri Martel
Ms. Elizabeth
Luna Vachon
Chyna
Bull Nakano
Alundra Blayze
Still learning, though and for that I'm glad, more wrestlers to discover and get thrilled over ^^
SolidMike84 1 year ago
Katrina Waters [Nikita,Katie Lea] is a genuinlly good wrestler. WWE did not use her right. I remember watching her have some good matches against a number of male wrestlers in the FWA a few years ago.
bikerboygeoff 1 year ago
In terms of pure wrestling and being a good diva at same time
Mickie James was it
Trish Stratus was a good diva period but she was never the great wrestler
Mickie James had more to offer to division then Trish did but it is ashame that she came around the down period of women's wrestling
Look in retrospect the last great match of this modern era will be the matches
Beth and Mickie had
delirous8 1 year ago
Sunny, Madusa, Kelly Kelly, Debra McMichael, Molly Holly are all my top favorites
bdscavenger 1 year ago
I agree with Eric on Trish and Molly.
kidneys4free 1 year ago
Matt 'Bourne' Sydal. I think I'm in love with Daizee.
MyLeftKnee1 1 year ago
sara del ray is hot as fuck.
ESWEfounder 1 year ago
Trish was great but lets be real here. The only reason she was the best was because her compation could wrestle for real also. Molly holly, Victoria, Mickie James, Lita, Jackie could all kick ass and take names. Sherri Martel was great but had no compation. Molah was the same way, but she was the first to be great. She had no real compation though. Molah, Sherri, Medusa all great but no good opponents.
rushman21901 1 year ago 2
news flash the only reason wwe got the fans so into the trish and mickey storyline was because the had to make mickey look like an obsessed lesbian. that was garbage!
InfeRed5000 1 year ago
@InfeRed5000 I don't think her character was a lesbian originally. Yes, there is that one kiss, and the "nice boobs" incident, but that was it. She was just playing mind games with Trish.
TheManiacOnWheelsUSA 1 year ago
i agree why is it that WWE was so high on girls like Sable and not women like Jillian hall, and Natalya who have it all and can deliver and are real wrestlers makes me mad they have to job to girls like Bellas and Kelly kelly ughh amen they tried to make models to succesful wrestlers lmao Daizee know Maryse i'm suprised
jillfan1 1 year ago
The guy to my right is correct i think he was reffering to girls like Kelly Kelly
i'm subscribing you guys are the real deal saying Sable didn't start anything yes people her mark out for her in so many ways 4:39 Daizee has nice abs lol
jillfan1 1 year ago
DAMN!!!...Daizee's H-O-T!!!!!!...
jerzeefranky3475 1 year ago
Oh dear lord, Michelle McPlagirist and Layla's "promo" (if it could even be called that) on the 5/28 SmackDown really REALLY made me wanna shoot myself in the head...in hindsight, I should've muted the TV and shielded my eyes.
UzumakiSonic619 1 year ago
2020justindustin 1 year ago
The milestone women in WWE were 1. Fabulous Moolah 2. Wendi Richter 3. Alundra Blayze 4. Sunny-She introduced the glamourous side 5. Sable 6. Chyna 7. Lita 8. Trish Stratus 9. Beth Phoenix/MickieJames/Melina.
spreadoutguy 1 year ago
I tried to respond, but for some reason my comment wasn't posted. My point about Trish is that from a business POV, she's the greatest. Most popular, made the most money, highest ratings, etc.
So internet tough guys like "RPenta" can bitch and moan that his favorites were overlooked in favor of the golden girl, if that's what you want to call her. But Trish holds all the monetary records, which are the only ones that matter.
Look at wrestling for what it really is. A business.
drumer8998 2 years ago
I would love for you, to see my 50 greatest women of wrestling list. If you can, can you send me your email address, so I can send you the list?
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
@drumer8998 Monetary records only matter to the WWE. I'm sure its a business but WWE isn't the only business around. Well, if the only wrestling you watch is on TV.
newagepun 2 years ago
Well, WWE is right then. No offense to wrestling fans, but many of you can't see the big picture. It's not a real sport, nobody actually wins matches or titles. Even the best "workers" in the business would get killed in a MMA fight.
Being a great pro wrestler gets no respect from most people. So the only true measure of success is how much money you made for yourself and your employer.
It's just entertainment, popularity is the most important thing. Don't take it so seriously.
drumer8998 2 years ago
@drumer8998 being a great pro wrestler DOES get respect from people who see pro wrestling in a different light, well at least not the way you and many people do. Because if we use your logic, every other former womens' legend gets shitted on (WWF too of course) by trish because she was the most marketable and recognizable female wrestler in the tenure of her company.
I'm not denying her success as that is fucking obvious considering her background prior to wrestling.
newagepun 2 years ago
@newagepun
Geez, calm down. My whole point is that in real sports, we can figure out who is the best by their performance.
But in a scripted sport, you cannot do this, since not everybody is going to agree on who the best wrestler is. You might think somebody like Bret Hart is the best. But somebody else might find him boring as hell. Perception is reality.
Wrestling is a work. Whoever sells the most wins. Everything else is a matter of opinion. That's all I'll say.
drumer8998 2 years ago
@drumer8998 I was never angry to begin with. I don't know where you are getting that.
Wrestling isn't necessarily about merchandising or the way McMahon made you believe it, which is the be all and end all of wrestling-dom. Why are they recognizing a guy like Inoki and inducting him in their hall of fame?
Sure the wrestling world is larger than ones' perception, which is why those who do know wrestling see it beyond who trish is. Just because you choose to ignore doesn't mean you know more.
newagepun 2 years ago
Well, usually when somebody drops the F bomb, that means they are mad. My mistake.
I guess we won't agree on this. My whole point is that in real sports, the best athletes make the most money. But in wrestling, popularity and charisma is most important. Being a great worker doesn't pay the bills. Don't act like I'm brainwashed by Vince McMahon. Those are facts.
As for Inoki. I'm no expert, but isn't he considered as big as Hogan in Japan? That's why they are inducting him.
drumer8998 2 years ago
and u cant compare pro wrestling to sports cuz its not a sport its entertainment u have to compare it to other forms of entertainment music movies n esp television ur saying real sports as if wrestling a fake sport instead of a form of athletic theatre
jblive1985 2 years ago
@newagepun
I agree with you 100%.
RPenta 1 year ago
music is entertainment but yet there are good singers n bad ones sometimes bad singing sells more then the good ones look at britney sprears!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jblive1985 2 years ago
That's true, but Trish was actually good. I'm not some big wrestling fan. So I'm not going to pretend to know alot of these women that are brought up. All I know is that when I used to watch it, I loved watching her. Didn't care much for the other women.
Many of my buddies are not wrestling fans at all, and they have actually heard of Trish. Which shows you how much more popular and famous she is than the other divas. That was pretty much my whole point in the first place.
drumer8998 2 years ago
i agree in the end in ALL flieds talent always rises to the top going back to my spears example where is she today ? so though she was popular doesnt equal talented but i agree with u trish was talented
jblive1985 2 years ago
@drumer8998
Don't be so sure the best workers would get killed in an MMA fight, they have plenty of jabronis in UFC--I have no doubt that Lou Thesz, Harley Race, Bruno, Billy Robinson and Karl Gotch could stretch them.
RPenta 1 year ago
@drumer8998
Almost everything is a business; so is baseball; so is pro hockey and the NFL--so is the team that takes in the most cash the best at performance? I don't think so--I give Trish credit for what Trish was good at; but being the "greatest women's wrestler" is sure not one of them.
RPenta 1 year ago
@RPenta
How many of her fans go around saying Trish is the best technical wrestler ever? I have honestly not seen many of them say that. When they call her the best, it's more from a business and entertainment perspective. In the world of wrestling, she is the most successful and famous woman. You seem to take that personally for some reason. Get over it. She's not even in WWE anymore. Why don't you complain about how much the current women suck instead?
drumer8998 1 year ago
@drumer8998
Why don't you get over using the cliche, "get over it"?
How many of her fans say she is the best? After my first few months back following pro wrestling about a year and a half ago, I stopped trying to figure that out since it was so many.
No Trish is not in WWE anymore, she just returns every so often to beat their greatest heel, Beth Phoenix.
That sucks as far as I am concerned.
RPenta 1 year ago
@RPenta
You really have alot of "balls" to run around the internet all day bashing Trish and making fun of anybody that sticks up for her. You a virgin by any chance? Don't worry, sooner or later WWE will have a new "golden girl", and you probably won't see Trish anymore. I just hope you are consistent and bash them too.
drumer8998 1 year ago
@drumer8998
I know; it takes balls to stand up to the idiots, trolls, women haters, and WWE marks that are all over the net. As to my virginity. . .I lost mine while you were in diapers--which may or may not have been long ago now that I think of it.
I am consistent: read my comments on that no talent bimbo Kelly Kelly.
At least Trish was a pretty good pro wrestler.
RPenta 1 year ago
@drumer8998
I know; it takes balls to stand up to the idiots, trolls, women haters, and WWE marks that are all over the net. As to my virginity. . .I lost mine while you were in diapers--which may or may not have been long ago now that I think of it.
I am consistent: read my comments on that no talent bimbo Kelly Kelly.
At least Trish was a pretty good pro wrestler.
RPenta 1 year ago
@RPenta
Well, at least now you are sort of making sense, and not just bashing her randomly. I don't see why you get so upset if WWE does favor Trish though. She's a beautiful, classy gal with alot of charisma, and she did work hard to be good in the ring. So what if WWE kisses her ass? The other women she worked with have no problem with her, and she has never bashed anybody in public. Her showing up once a year is just supposed to be for fun. Some people take wrestling way too seriously.
drumer8998 1 year ago
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@drumer8998
Why don't you get over using the cliche, "get over it"?
How many of her fans say she is the best? After my first few months back following pro wrestling about a year and a half ago, I stopped trying to figure that out since it was so many.
No Trish is not in WWE anymore, she just returns every so often to beat their greatest heel, Beth Phoenix.
That sucks as far as I am concerned.
RPenta 1 year ago
You know how I know Trish is the best? She's the only one that ever comes up. Even people that dislike her can't stop talking about her. The people that knock her are far more obnoxious than the people that "overrate" her.
Trish is a millionare, and is still very succesful in the REAL world. The funniest comment here is by the idiot that wants to "confront" her in public to see if she thinks she is better at fake fighting than women most people have never heard of. That will show her!!!
drumer8998 2 years ago
best doesn't mean most known because she was on the most available wrestling TV show. I don't knock her success as being the face of the womens' division in her prime. But when you actually get to the wrestling aspect which everyone just dodges because they can't justify her that way. People who have seen Joshi, female lucha libre or even Shimmer see what real talent and ability is about. Its like saying you've seen wrestling when all you've ever watched was american TV wrestling all your life.
newagepun 2 years ago
@drumer8998 No you dork, I am not an idiot; I just have balls; I know you cannot relate to that.
You mean women most of the WWE mark fans or ignorant fools like yourself have never heard of.
RPenta 1 year ago
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@drumer8998 No you dork, I am not an idiot; I just have balls; I know you cannot relate to that.
You mean women most of the WWE mark fans or ignorant fools like yourself have never heard of.
RPenta 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@drumer8998 No you dork, I am not an idiot; I just have balls; I know you cannot relate to that.
You mean women most of the WWE mark fans or ignorant fools like yourself have never heard of.
RPenta 1 year ago
daizee haze is BOTH the prettiest girl ive EVER seen in my ENTIRE life....AND....1 of THE MOST talented ladies/womens wrestler on earth!!!!!...i STILL cannot believe that wwecw &/or tna havent signed her 2 a "FULL-TIME" contract!!!!!
jerzeefranky3475 2 years ago
Must have been good having a womens insights for the topic
I would like to suggest to Daizee to NOT go to WWE if you want to continue to be taken seriously
MrPerfect2000Z 2 years ago
I agree. Daizee matches well with some of the best indies has to offer and developing as well. Vinnie Mac won't know how to market her to the fans and she'd be lost in the shuffle trying to get a good match with random Diva winner who doesn't even know how to move in the ring.
newagepun 2 years ago
Trish Stratus is great BECAUSE - 1. Her transformation was completed in front of the fans. 2. She invested time becomming a better in-ring worker/competitor. 3. She was charismatic. AND 4. Trish (and her fellow women's wrestlers) legitimized women's wrestling - for example, where was TNA's women's division before Trish Stratus? Exactly. Where was the interest in women's wrestling BEFORE Trish Stratus? Potato sacks, screaming women, bra & panties, etc. Please.
Bobbyjames2009 2 years ago
Why do Trish marks love to engage in revisionist history-wasn't Trish Stratus once called the biggest slut on RAW by Shelton Benjamin? Wasn't the women's divsion about to have a series of matches between Chyna and Lita? The Trish marks always have to make Stratus into the savior of the women's divsion--when what she mostly did is crowd out--Jazz, Jacqueline, Molly, Victoria, and even Lita to second banana.
RPenta 2 years ago
Where was TNA's womens' wrestling before Trish? In the INDIES of course! And if you want to get more specific, Japan was light years ahead redefining womens' wrestling before Trish was lacing her boots. If anything the only thing you succeeded explaining was how marketable Trish was for Vince's wrestling show for the female division which they didn't have anyone to market then.
newagepun 2 years ago
They even have to job out the Glamazon to Trish Stratus--why? Trish as wrested 2x in about 3 years--was Don Vinnie going to lose money if her top heel beat the "Toronto Tornado"? All that did is weaken Beth's dominance persona.
I hope someone, somewhere (hope its me) gets to ask Stratus in public: do you think you were as great a wrestler as Wendi, Madusa, and most of all Bull Nakano. I can bet you Debbie Miceli will be interested in that answer.
RPenta 2 years ago
The point is, women's wrestling pre-Trish was scarce. Trish's contribution was that she gained noteriety and made women's wrestling visible. Sure it was in the indies, but Trish led the way to gaining exposure in the biggest international wrestling company. From this, Trish Stratus argualy inspired TNA to create a women's division and championship. And when Trish retired, WWE dropped the ball and TNA picked it up. Which is a shame considering WWE talent.
Bobbyjames2009 2 years ago
@Bobbyjames2009 Are you kiding me? Not as marketed correctly like Vinnie Mac did but Luna, Madusa and attempts of Bull Nakano and akira hokuto showed what womens' wrestling was all about. No one paid attention because it wasn't marketed as PUPPIES, Tits and Ass or Diva search contests. Trish was the face of the WWE universe women's division but the wrestling community? HELL NO. And if you're wondering, TNA got professionals and not entirely models. Trinity was there in the beginning.
newagepun 2 years ago
No I'm not kidding you. I love women like Luna, Bull Nakano, Madusa, Jacqueline, Jazz, Victoria, Beth Phoenix, Mickie James, Molly Holly, etc. But you look back at women's wrestling history and there are milestone women: 1. Fabulous Moolah, 2. Wendi Richter, 3. Sable, 4. Chyna, 5. Trish Stratus. In my opinion WWE has the next milestone girl, Natalya. (If I had more character count available, I'd go into detail).
Bobbyjames2009 2 years ago
@Bobbyjames2009 I'm not surprised about your pick for Natalya as I'm a big fan of hers as well. She's a complete natural, being part of wrestling family and having gone everywhere to prove her talents. In fact Smackdown has most of the wrestlers in the company at the moment with RAW stuck with mostly divas.
The milestone women you seem to point out are WWE universe related, ones that have been proven with names alone. But I digress in terms of the actual wrestling, others have proven better.
newagepun 2 years ago
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I would love for you, to see my 50 greatest women of wrestling list. If you can, can you send me your email address, so I can send you the list?
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
I agree 100% with this video. The thing that gets me about Trish Stratus is that some of her fans swear she is the best female wrestler when she is far from it. I respect that she improved her in ring abilities but like you mention when she got in the ring with real female wrestlers she was botching moves left and right, except when she got in the ring with Lita who made her look good each time they got in the ring with each other. Its such a shame that Molly, Jazz, Tara, Lita don't get credit.
robertsnowden19 2 years ago
I hate to say it, but Trish got the push because her persona was the most marketable of the women. Lita was a great wrestler and she'll be a WWE HOF'er, but her "alterna-chick" look wasn't as marketable to a mass audience. Jazz was a snarling badass, Victoria was nuts, and Molly was a prude/bitch, none of which lent themselves well to being the focal point of the Women's division. Vince went with the one who was going to make him the most money.
TheJohnnyCotts 2 years ago
Molly DEFINITELY doesn't get enough credit. FACT: Guess who was teaching the new divas in the WWE around the mid 2000's how to break in? She was all about the wrestling aspect while her more popular peers just did their thing in front of the camera.
newagepun 2 years ago
I have been asking Eric to do a Roundtable just on joshi but to no avail--to other fans of women's wrestling please email him at the WR site--and show some love, respect, and honor for Jackie Sato, Jumbo Hori, Jaguar Yokota, The Crush Gals, The Bomb Angels, Dump Matsumoto, Bull Nakano, Akira Hokuto, Manami Toyota, Aja Kong, Kyoko Inoue and the rest of the greats.
RPenta 2 years ago
What kind of a guy is Russo? Well, in one interview he responds to comments concerning the infamous "crucifixion" scene done by the Undertaker years ago. Russo said (excuse me while I get my barf bag ready) he said that it was not until he became a born again Christian that he realized how offensive those scenes could be; this from a guy who is Italian from a Catholic family--sorry little Don Vinnie, I don't buy that.
RPenta 2 years ago
Negative attitudes toward women in wrestling have always existed and always will. Women like Madusa and Bull Nakano made strides but if anything or anyone hurt the credibility of women in wrestling in modern times, it was Vince Russo and the era he helped bring in. Russo has admitted even today that women should not be wrestling and he is not a fan of wrestling in women.
RSXemperor 2 years ago
RSXemperor, I have created a list that gives justice to those great women. It covers women wrestlers, divas, valets, pioneers, champions and sex symbols. The six catergories are impact on the business, charisma, a great character, wrestling abilty, "overness" with the crowd and sex appeal. I twill be a top 50 list, of the greatest women of pro wrestling. Including the 60's-2009, will be showcased. I hope you will enjoy it and maybe give me some feedback on what you thought about it. Lets begin.
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
Jillian, Daizee Haze and Natalya all would've been way before Candice. But that's just IMO.
Other than that pretty nice list!
kellys1999 2 years ago
I'm glad you liked it. Also, I should've stated, that the list covers women wrestlers, valets, sex symbols, champions, pioneers, and divas. There are six caterogories that are the reasons why, the women were placed like that. They are the women's impact on wrestling, charisma, "overness" with the crowd, wrestling ability, mic skills, and having a great gimmick. Perhaps now, you could look at the list again, and you might have a different opinion, about your comments.
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
@lettersfromaboy Yeah I see what you mean now. Eventhough Candice wasn't a technical artist, she has been more over than Jillian and Natalya. And Daizee is an awesome wrestler but she is indy circuit so she builds a lot of other girls up rather than beat them like Sara Del Rey or Ms Chif. So I understand your list better..
kellys1999 2 years ago
What do you mean when you say that Daize is " Indy circuit" ?
swirlgirl1 2 years ago
I only meant she isn't in WWE which is most paid attention to in today's wrestling world.
And she isn't with TNA anymore, but she did kinda cross over to TV when ROH got a deal so she's not AS indy but that's all I meant is that you wouldn't see her on TV as much as other women.
kellys1999 2 years ago
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
Cont'd
23. Beth Pheonix
22. Luna
21. Melina
20. Mickie James
19. Sable
18. Awesome Kong
17. Stephanie Mcmahon
16. Stacy
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
How in the living hell (to quote the Rock) is Trish Stratus on a list of pro wrestling women ahead not only of much better contemporaries like Awesome Kong and Mickie James and Sara Del Rey--but Madusa and Bull Nakano herself? Have you been in the gimmick bag of the Iron Shiek, you jabroni?
RPenta 2 years ago
I should of stated, who would be on this list and why they are placed like this. It is all of the women who have shaped, influenced, and impacted pro wrestling. It is filled with women wrestlers, valets, divas, champions, pioneers and sex symbols. The six catergories I chose were their impact on wrestling, wrestling ability, charisma, "overness" with the crowd, mic skills, and a great gimmick. Some fitted all of these catergories, while others did not. Maybe now, you can look at the list again.
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
I looked at the list again; my comment still stands; Trish Stratus was very over with the WWE fans and had charisma and pretty good on the mike--as to wrestling ability she was pretty good and really had no gimmick--your list is a mishmash; maybe you need to break it down.
RPenta 2 years ago
Well I still disagree with you on this. I think that this is the most comprehensive and accurate lists ever created. You know why, because Trish isn't #1? It may have been the WWE mark thing to do-to put her at #1, but I am not a WWE mark. I just think that your original comment, implies that Trish wasn't a great wrestler. Well that might be true, because of the other great women, you mentioned with Trish. However, it takes more than wrestling ability to become a success in wrestling. Agreed?
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
It does; and you would have to give enormous credit to popularity and charisma to have Stratus so far up in the list-oh, you did not make Trish #1--just #2-how nice.
As a wrestler, she was far behind many on your own list; she was popular pushed like crazy by WWE publicity machine--pushed over many much better wrestlers-including Molly Holly.
RPenta 2 years ago
I think that Trish improvd greatly in the ring. Certainly, she is not on the level as a Molly, as far as ability, but she did get better. And as I said, that is why a pro wrestling list, is always going to have similar catergories like the one I have. And there are going to be people who will just focus on the wrestler's wrestling. However, once again, it takes more than that. Some times is doesn't but more than other times it does. Agreed?
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
Hey trish is fuckin amazning! She's done a lot more than just wrestling now days and i think she is just as great as Molly. Why do you think that she isn't? Just out of curiousity?
swirlgirl1 2 years ago
Molly is better technically.
But in WWE Trish was much more over than the fans because of her looks and signature moves.
Hey, it even worked on me!
kellys1999 2 years ago
Molly was great, I wish she'd come back. But yes, Trish is still very good, I think today, if they were both matched up, Trish has caught up to Molly's level, and maybe even passed it.
swirlgirl1 2 years ago
Yeah they could do more technical stuff this time around. It would be great to see them again.
kellys1999 2 years ago
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I would love for you, to see my 50 greatest women of wrestling list. If you can, can you send me your email address, so I can send you the list?
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
Before I say anything else, I am a die-hard Molly Holly fan. That said, I can understand why Trish is ranked higher, because Trish was a more "complete" performer. Molly was a MUCH better wrestler, but she lacked in other areas.
Molly changed personas too much to establish "a great gimmick". She was usually too soft-spoken on the mic. When she tried to sound angry, she came off as unintentionally ridiculous. She actually lost "overness" as time went on and wound up a jobber.
TheJohnnyCotts 2 years ago
What did you think of the women's list and would you rearrange the placement of the women? If so who, why and where?
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
Overall, it's a good list. Most of the women on there belonged. The only one I'd swap out would be Lillian Garcia, who I didn't think merited a place on the list. I probably would replace her with someone a little more old school, like Mildred Burke or Vivian Vachon.
As for the order, it would take too long to go into detail. For example, I would have rated Lita and Missy Hyatt higher, and I would have rated Molly Holly and Gail Kim lower.
TheJohnnyCotts 2 years ago
Interesting, your comments, and I thank you for them. I should point out that I am not familar with those wrestlers. Although I'm sure they were great. The reason why Lillian was ranked so high, is because she was the modern era's announcer and the first female, in a long term fashion, to be successful as a announcer.
She was very charismatic, when she wanted to be and was over with the fans, thanks to her superb voice and energy.
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
I don't blame you for not hearing of them. Mildred Burke was the first big female superstar in wrestling, before even Moolah. Vivian Vachon was one of the toughest women ever (her brothers were Mad Dog and Butcher Vachon), but is probably better known today for being Luna's aunt.
TheJohnnyCotts 2 years ago
yeah but its if you think about it, she just did her job well enough to keep it. It wasn't like her position was at risk at being taken by talented up and coming announcers. Sure she was able to add to her resume her singing career but that is about it.
newagepun 2 years ago
Cont'd
The reason why Molly is so high, is because she was flawless in the ring. She is the greatest female wrestler in hidtory and was a great heel. As for Gail Kim, she single handedly, started a women's division in TNA. She gets credit for that, simply because she was the one true woman wrestler there. Thanks to her, there is a women's division in TNA. Also, she is a great heel and wrestler.
What say you?
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
I love Molly Holly and respect her a lot; but in the WWE, Bull Nakano was the greatest wrestling diva ever--I would put Molly as maybe #2--as much as I respect Wendi Richter and Victoria--and the Jumping Bomb Angels were fabulous women wrestlers.
Lita was a good wrestler and the most exciting one I have seen in WWE;
lettersfromaboy: I think Jaguar Yokota or Akira Hokuto were the greatest women wrestlers of all time.
RPenta 2 years ago
I'd say Jaguar. She's still around but the list of her students include greats like Manami Toyota and Aja Kong. She helped define what Joshi wrestling would be with what she did in the 80's and blossomed talent to bring out her vision in the 90's and beyond. But to be even more fair, Jaguar is beyond gender when it comes to mention of best wrestlers of all time.
newagepun 2 years ago
That is why she made the top ten, and she deserves it. Bull is great and for that matter, so is Molly.
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
Cont'd
I thought that Missy was great, but Elizabeth, Baby Doll and Precious, had more charisma and more memorable roles as valets, then Missy. I knew that Lita would be controversal. I just think that on popularity, charisma and looks alone, Torrie has her edged out. Lita was great, in every aspect, but Torrie was more popular. Agreed?
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
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lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
Trish had absolutely no impact on Women's wrestling or even WWE women's wrestling--but she did make Don Vinnie a lot of cash so I will give her that.
RPenta 2 years ago
RPenta- I am enjoying this debate. I must say that "impact" and "influence" are simlar words and not so similar words. In my view, impact means, contribution. Like drawing power, in terms of money, many times as champion and the additional fans, that the wrestler brought to the company. Influence, to me means, recognition by the peers and by the fans. I think that Candice, Mickie, Torrie Wilson, Ivory, The Dudleys, Rikishi and Bret Hart-have mentioned Trish's impact and influence in wrestling.
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
Trish did a lot for Women's wrestling in the WWE.
Other girls may have had her ideas, but Trish used he wit and charm to get over on the boss so her would put the divas in Tabe matches and hardcore matches and streetfights. Trish made the WWE divas almost as entertaining as the JOSHI girls in Japan. With much help from women like Victoria, Molly, Lita, Jacqueline and Jazz.
kellys1999 2 years ago
Your NOT telling me, are you, that Stratus is in the same league as a wrestler with Bull Nakano, are you? Despite the fact that she and her mark fans would have you believe she was the WWE's greatest.
RPenta 2 years ago
Ok, I would say this. Stratus ISN'T as good as Bull Nakano.
But as a WWE Woman, yeah I feel like she did more. All Bull ever got to do in WWE is build up Madusa...
Bull COULD HAVE did more, if WWE would allow it, but they didn't. I've seen Bull in Japan and even her work in America was great but she wasn't given a chance to do anything that the other Women in America weren't already doing, Ya know?
kellys1999 2 years ago
I agree with your first statement. I cannot agree with you that she made WWE divas as entertaining as Joshi wrestlers in japan. The difference of the work, matches and skill of Joshi wrestling is to WWE Divas at their height is honestly like night and day. Do note I'm saying the wrestling aspect and not the whole Divas marketing thing.
newagepun 2 years ago
((LOL)) I meant Marketing. As far as people paying attention to them and what not. Not that they were "just as good" or better or anything.
kellys1999 2 years ago
"However, it takes more than wrestling ability to become a success in wrestling. Agreed? "
Natural charisma of course however are you gauging it on WWE's definition or global professiona definition? Trish would certainly fit the WWE definition since she was the identity of the Divas in its height. In terms of female pro wrestling in general, Jaguar Yokota has been more of an impact to the female wrestling world and Joshi wrestling.
newagepun 2 years ago
I think it was "what in the blue hell". Still fun and I respectively still disagree with you.
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
I snuck a peek at least form number 23. This is an american WWF/E/WCW to say the least. If it were a global list Trish wouldn't appear until the 30th I'd say. But what do you expect from a guy who started watching wrestling since the early-mid 90's and asked him to compile a list from a limited amount of people he knew in which he has to put to rate them by 6 strange ass categories.
newagepun 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I rearranged the list and added more categories. I would love for you, to see my 50 greatest women of wrestling list. If you can, can you send me your email address, so I can send you the list?
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
@lettersfromaboy Nice list but why in the world is Lita 14 on your list and Torrie Wilson is 11 on your list? I'm not understanding this. but overall good list!
robertsnowden19 2 years ago
Well Lita was great. She was an innovator, and was a great face. I just thought that Torrie's 1st smackdowm run, was proof, that she was the better baby face. I always thought that they were equals, in terms of charisma, mic skills, popularity and ability. Looking back, I based my placement of Torrie over Lita, for popularity purposes. I just thought Torrie's smackdown run alone, was greater than Lita's popularity on Raw and overall, in the WWE. What say you?
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
Sorry, but I have to go with Lita on this one. Lita was a MUCH better wrestler, better on the mic, better gimmick/character ... I'll give Torrie the edge in looks, but overall, Lita was a more "complete" performer and should have been ranked higher. Torrie was exiled over on SD where it seemed like the only other woman there was Dawn Marie.
TheJohnnyCotts 2 years ago
Trish Stratus is the most overrated women's wrestler in history; not only could she not lace Bull Nakano's boots but also Madusa's as well.
Let us not forget (my favorite women's wrestler) Reggie Bennett and the great luchadoras such as Lola Gonzalez and Xochitl Hamada.
RPenta 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I would love for you, to see my 50 greatest women of wrestling list. If you can, can you send me your email address, so I can send you the list?
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
What wrestling historians have missed regarding Russo since they focus some much on the "attitude" era is his anti-woman, anti-Asian, and anti-Mexican attitudes; plus he is a major asshole. I hope TNA survives him.
RPenta 2 years ago
TNA won't survive him. He is the one responsible for stroking Dixie's ego and telling her to make that STUPID speech to the roster a few weeks ago. As long as she has confidence in him, TNA will go no where.
RSXemperor 2 years ago
Seeing as they are so intent on using the phrase Diva or Knockout maybe when they say women's division they could say "Coming up next a men's division match." No it will never happen but fuck it would make me laugh. Just watched Lacie Von Erich. Oh dear I weep for talanted wrestlers male or female
TheWrestlingLantern 2 years ago
Awesome Kong rocks.
JDFerguson77 2 years ago
Trish Stratus vs. Lita once main evented RAW. I was shocked and they tore the house down.
BENWONDER 2 years ago
Yeah. I remember that Raw. It was in Dec. of 2004 and they went on last and had a great match. And Lita almost broke her neck on a dive too!
jeuron 2 years ago
I don't remember this did men do a run in? Like hardy and Jericho or something. Sounds cool though I liked Trish. For a model how well did she do
TheWrestlingLantern 2 years ago
I've said it before about a hundred times, but I'll never get tired of saying it again: forget WWE, forget TNA - if you want to see women wrestlers SHINE, watch women's federations like Shimmer or Japanese feds like NEO, JWP or OZ Academy. Men's feds will NEVER take a serious approach at ladies' wrestling.. and if they do, it never lasts longer than a year - at best
nagashimark 2 years ago
some how i forgat to mention Beth Phenoix just then........fucking love her, also once on Raw Trish defended the women's championship for the main event, although i think it was the one and only time that ever happend
DeathAdder83 2 years ago
Against Lita in Nov/Dec 04.
It was the match where Lita almost smashed her head of the concrete doing the suicide dive I believe it was.
Sluntrox 2 years ago
Actually, Lita and Stephanie McMahon had a RAW Main Event Match in 2000 or 2001. Trish & Lita was the second.
Bobbyjames2009 2 years ago
huh no shit.....well regardless, I think they should get rid of that "Diva's Belt" and introduce a more attractive "women's title" and take the women's matches more seriously.
i mean having 50 super models who are 90pds each fighting over an over sized purple butterfly belt.....kind of a slap in the face to all the ladies.
they need to have more, beth's, mickie's, and trish's, and less of the runner ups from the diva search
DeathAdder83 2 years ago 7
I think the "divas" today are red hot as far as wrestling ability goes. Trish Stratus is probably the best, but so many others like Victoria, Chyna, Molly Holly, Lita. My 2 favorite things, women and wrestling. However there are still alot of "pretty faces" that stink up the joint, they need to fire about 30 of there some 50 divas
DeathAdder83 2 years ago
This may be a little off-topic but: After watching the tributes that WWE did when Eddie Guerrero died, I remember Shawn Michaels said he and Eddie never wrestled a match together.
That got me to thinking--what women-vs.-men wrestling match might be a credible match? For example, Lita vs. Rey Mysterio, Jr.: Both had backgrounds in the Mexican Lucha Libre style, both wrestle similarly, both get pops among the fans, and the size difference I don't think would be a problem. Thoughts?Other ideas?
2themoon 2 years ago
Yes because they get a few months of training & then thrown in the ring. It's ridiculous !! They don't have the passion for wrestling in my opinion. Especially Maria & Ashley u can c that by watching their matches !! Why can't WWE just hire some women from the indy's like Daizee, MsChif, Sara Del Ray & Portia Perez who are great wrestlers !!!
999xander999 2 years ago
Well Vince isn't doing that good of a job turning models into wrestlers !! Cos half the women on the roster suck !!!!
999xander999 2 years ago 2
let's not forget they are injury prone
First Ashley Massaro, Candice Michelle, Maryse, now Michelle McCool
delirous8 2 years ago
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I would love for you, to see my 50 greatest women of wrestling list. If you can, can you send me your email address, so I can send you the list?
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
Very good discussion. I think the first thing is to separate the Sables and Sunnies from the actual athletes. The WWE used to have the T&A and wrestling-focused women differentiated but sadly that is no longer the case. The stupid fetish wrestling stereotype doesn't women's wrestling either.
I think more this type of wrestling should be plugged but the sad truth is that the general wrestling society won't watch in a long time but it won't stop me from trying!
JoshInsanity 2 years ago
Let me mention another travesty to women's wrestling in the wwe. And if your not down with that, I've got 2 words for ya.
...Harvey Wippleman.
JukoDDT 2 years ago
@JukoDDT Thank God Harvey Wippleman was a short-lived WWE Woman's Champion!LOL
landrykkb 1 year ago
vince mcmahon said you can turn a model into a wrestler but you cant turn a wrestler into a model. thats bad thinking and thats why the womans division is going down hill and the divas cant be taking seriously. love the interview i wish i was there talking to them i would have gave them a piece of my mind lol.
handful808 2 years ago
i am gonna say trish stratus was probably the best "diva" in the wwe but she was far from the best wrestler,as a matter of fact she wasnt even a wrestler she was a entertainer. thats why i get so angry with people who let the wwe play with their intelligence thinking she is a wrestler because she wasnt. the wwe pushed her far because she was a "diva" leaving the true talented like molly holly,jazz,victoria,gail kim,ivory,jacqueline on the back burner.
handful808 2 years ago
i really,really like this. the topic on what the women have to go through is very intresting. i kinda understand why the wwe pushes eye candy instead of true talent and i guess because thats what the audience wants so the wwe is gonna give it to them. but the wwe can try to switch that around and show the fans true talent and thats what that is really about in reality.
handful808 2 years ago
This was really cool and worth the watch. Thanks for posting this.
ssilva872 2 years ago
Thank you very much for watching & for your words
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
I think that, sadly, the end of WWE's golden era for the women was in 2004. WWE needs a MAJOR overhaul in ALL of its divisions and I think that the women's is on the bottom of that list. The best divas wrestling you're going to get in the WWE is on Smackdown...at least they're trying.
Stonecold041989 2 years ago
Ex-actly. In come the Diva Search girls, out go Jackie, Jazz, Nidia and Gail.
If Molly hadn't been the one breaking in the new girls, I think she would've gotten cut, too. Because of who she is, she was never going to have the overt sex appeal they wanted in a "diva", so they just buried her until she quit.
TheJohnnyCotts 2 years ago
To there credit though, McCool and Christy Hemme have proven themselves greatly. Agreed!
lettersfromaboy 2 years ago
what about Sherri Martel?
frenzyrocks1020 2 years ago 2
Promos aside, I think Victoria, Trish, Lita, Chyna, and Gail actually know how to wrestle and showd that you can be appreciated more with talent and looks. Even Luna, Wnedy Richter and Alundra Blayze knew how to wrestle and look good at the same time.
clipsryan 2 years ago 2
Great show . Just wish the audio wasn't so low !
FlixCreEightR 2 years ago
Also as great of a wrestler gail was, she could not work a gimmick. Her mic work was bad. TNA has some problems still in some of the model like girls they hire. Also the treatment of Kong as the res. big girl is sad. They could bring in someone her size to fight her and yet they keep putting the small girls in there. TNA is just like wwe on how they handle their girls. It's still about looks or we would have more big girls like Kong.
MickeyTheQueen 2 years ago
The problem with trish is unlike other models/girls who got their start in the big feds went into indy feds. There are a ton of women on the indys busting their butt to get where she was and she just took her money and ran. As in just worked wwe. Give back to the women busting their butt to get great so they can be in those big feds. Work the indys and get into the real passion of the bizz.
MickeyTheQueen 2 years ago
Thank you, thank you, thank you for covering women's wrestling. It's so frustrating, having seen such great women's divisions (like when WWF had Jazz, Victoria, Molly Holly, etc.) treated as a joke (God, the Divas belt makes me wanna puke). There is so much potential in both WWE and TNA, but without great storylines and some more screentime, the division becomes so boring. (I miss the psycho Mickie James character. She doesn't stand out at all nowadays).
ocekit 2 years ago
I think jillian is like the molly holly of this generation. They were both talented and their wrestling style is kinda the same. The difference is molly holly became a womens champ. I hope jillian gets that title too.
ahl2x13 2 years ago
molly didn't fuck her face up so bad that is unrecongnizable
veralynn911 2 years ago
women have it harder then men in wrestling is a tuff question to awnser. as far as a chance to be a champion, I think women have it easier. The main event players in the mens division have been the same guys forever, with a few exceptions now and then. Women have a better shot at being the top DIVA. There is no womens version of HHH who is going to stop you from being the main draw Could you imagine if Shane married Maria and she was main eventing wrestlemania Squashing someone like beth phenoix
lilspiked 2 years ago 3
Why Doesn't they talk about the WWF Invasion and Austin's heel turn,both in 2001.
miSzroMantiQ 2 years ago
buy a bigger table!
Peacekeeper1234 2 years ago
You gonna actually say something worth while or just keep trolling?
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
What ECW is planning to make an all- women Show???
kukuruckukuku 2 years ago
WWE announced that on their website weeks ago that ECW on Sci-Fi was going to be an "All Divas Show" for one night, but that never happened
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
Eric--you know I appreciate the work you do on the show--good stuff; but I have been urging you for a year to do a show just on joshi/lucha so that Jackie Sato, the Beauty Pair, Monster Ripper, Devil Masami, Megumi Kudo, Dump Matsumoto, Crush Gals, Kyoko Inoue, Manami Toyota, the LCO, Aja Kong, Jaguar Yokota, Akira Hokuto, Xochilt Hamada, the Morenos, Lady Apache, but most of all Bull Nakano and Lola Gonzalez should get some history, props, and love they deserve.
RPenta 2 years ago
Did I mention my suggested title which I think you will like: "Why is Trish Stratus the Most Overrated Women's Professional Wrestler in History?"
PS: Don't forget three great American women of the the joshi style-maybe the best--Debby Malenko, my least favorite Madusa Miceli, and my all time favorite, Reggie Bennett.
RPenta 2 years ago
In some ways, I think a 1-hour "all divas" weekly show might work, especially since it seems like NXT will not be back for another season.
TheJohnnyCotts 1 year ago
Beth Phoenix All around great female wrestler She's strong, She's athletic, and also smokin hot
ElectroX24 2 years ago 4
Interesting discussion. Great to hear from a wrestler, especially the Haze.
traderjts 2 years ago 2