Theodore Dalrymple on the Capacity of the Poor

[rovacab1]

Because some of us had not had the education u have had Dr. I read ur junk medicine, and i would love one day to watch you suffer heroin withdrawals, and then would you say its just a bout of the flu?

[thatsmyrail]

This man basically tells the things the upper middle-class wants to hear. He over simplifies social issues without any form of nuance or deeper knowledge of the matter. Basically a very self-righteous man who stands far away from real life and real problems.

[6musky]

@thatsmyrail

He is a doctor and psychiatrist in urban slum areas and prisons, he deals with real-life problems every day.

[thatsmyrail]

@6musky He hits the nail on the head sometimes, but his discourse never rises above the level of: 'Everything goes wrong in this world'. This kind of non-constructive conservatism claims to fight lethargy and nihilism in society, but he ironically fights it with the same weapons. He's basically a sophist.

[nathfrancis01]

@satanidomini very well said.

[raveninaforest]

@satanidomini Exactly. These "aid charities" make themselves out as being the realistic, genuinely compassionate ones. This is a tactic to patronize and misrepresent the motives of foreign aid/development organizations to make them seem out of touch and naive. This "realistic" approach is just a front for achieving what they world really want -- little to no aid. And, as you point out, what an insult to suggest that the grassroots orgs have ever been against self-sufficiency and micro-finance.

[LuckySantiago]

@AirstripOneProle Do you know anything about development?

[MusicGeekAndProud]

i'm sorry but the guy's a big idiot

[hennypenny247]

This is profound and relevant! Foreign aid is the new colonialism. I see raveninaforest has the same ability to ignore the repeated failure of foreign aid as the Democrats and government economists have to ignore the repeated failures of Keynesian economics - which have been put on steroids and multiplied by Obama.

Don't take my word for it. New voices from the third world are telling us we are RUINING their countries with aid. Aren't we also showing a lack of respect for their abilities?

[raveninaforest]

@Finnbar01

"And yet look at Africa today. It is worse off now than ever"

This exactly the kind of circular reasoning which has led to such poor levels of foreign aid. That the intellectuals have been saying it doesn't mean much has been done (it hasn't). And that Africa is still in dire straits doesn't mean that investment, international development and poverty reduction programs don't work (they do). If the public and politicians acted on the evidence, global poverty could be ended very soon.

[raveninaforest]

"Dalrymple walked the walk all over africa and the world caring for the very people discussed here, with his own hands and at his own risk."

And he should be praised for it. But why does he then set about ridiculing efforts to raise money to invest in alleviating poverty, the intellectuals who make a sober and reasoned case for doing so and the campaigns (such as the Make Poverty History Campaign) which seek to raise awareness about the issue and extend reach to ordinary people?

[Finnbar01]

@raveninaforest Because for the last fifty years we have been hearing how Africa needs to be saved by intellectuals from all backgrounds. And yet look at Africa today. It is worse off now than ever, despite the billions giving to it by public and private charities. Did you know that the population of Ethiopa has gone from 35 million in 1980's ( band aid remember that) to over 72 million today. Ethiopa is poor yet the government there has no problem in spend 10's of millions on army tanks.

[raveninaforest]

@thepharmacist73

And by the way, there was nothing secular or "utopian" about Nazi Germany.

[raveninaforest]

"not ... everything the Nazis did was horrendous; and we cannot condemn things like euthanasia just because the Nazis did it." P. Singer

This seems like a completely uncontroversial statement. You can't dismiss an argument just because it was a policy of Nazi Germany.

The Nazi government was anti-communist. I assume (and hope) that you are an anti-communist). Does you being anti-communist make you Nazi?

I hope you can see why you're logic on the Nazi point is so weak.

[raveninaforest]

"He is an advocate of euthanasia.. not just for those who want to die but also for the active extermination of those that are burdensome to society."

Not true. You are misrepresenting his position. He's never argued for removing "burdens" from society.

"He claims parents should have to right to kill their disabled infant if it will increase the communal happiness of society."

Again, not true. His position on infanticide has nothing to do with increasing "the communal happiness of society."

[thepharmacist73]

The 20th century has seen enough secular utopianism.. no doubt it has led to the greatest calamities the world has ever known. The far left should be delighted to know that these ideas have not died and in fact they have trickled down from the elites to become the prevailing dogma of western society. But radical individualism freed from the shackles of convention has not led to a society of Cartisean philosophers but a society of egotists who defer the authority of ethics "to the experts"

[thepharmacist73]

Underneath the veneer of unlimited egalitarianism and "broadmindedness" lies a monster. He stratifies humanity by those who deserve to live vs. those that dont. He is an advocate of euthanasia.. not just for those who want to die but also for the active extermination of those that are burdensome to society. He claims parents should have to right to kill their disabled infant if it will increase the communal happiness of society. He is a utilitarianist gone mad and the liberals love him for it

[thepharmacist73]

"not ... everything the Nazis did was horrendous; and we cannot condemn things like euthanasia just because the Nazis did it." P. Singer

Yes Im familiar w/ Singer. I still have the tattered remains of Animal Liberation on the shelf. A required reading by an angry liberal professor more intereseted in teaching us what to think instead of how to think. Indeed he is easy to admire for some, his books read as if they were intended for 9th graders. This is no accident of course.

[raveninaforest]

You can read pretty much the entirety of Singer's book by skipping between the two additions from google books. Search 'The Life You Can Save'.

Also see his article Famine, Affluence, and Morality. There's a link at the bottom of the wikipedia entry.

It's pretty uncontroversial that Singer solidly demolishes this pseudo-intellectual ranter. Dalrymple is just plain out of his depth talking about these issues. He should stick to his psychiatry and leave ethics to the experts.

[tjmilbu]

@raveninaforest - When I first read Singers work 20 years ago in college I was a bit disturbed by his ideas. Now that I am older and more experienced, I find them completely revolting. This "asshole" Dalrymple walked the walk all over africa and the world caring for the very people discussed here, with his own hands and at his own risk. I'll take the pseudo-intellectual rantings of such a man any day. There's no expertise necessary to understand ethics. Dalrymple has GENUINE love for people

[raveninaforest]

That is the whole point behind Peter Singer's book where he argues that westerners, and our governments, have an ethical duty to give money to these nonprofits that facilitate micro-finance and other methods of development and poverty reduction such as development, access to clean water and basic healthcare, access to technology etc.

It's Singer's argument that Dalrymple has attacked. You know this I assume? @thepharmacist73, if he has written otherwise please direct me to where I can see this.

[raveninaforest]

"he was advocating microfinancing as an alternative to fighting poverty".

Well, I'm glad. But micro-finance requires nonprofit organizations to initiate and administer them. Or western governments to take the initiative in putting up the capital to get them going in which ever countries. This requires that the nonprofits have the sufficient funds from individual donations or government grants. Or that governmental initiatives have funds raised by taxes.

[thepharmacist73]

Im beginning to suspect some of us may have viewed this video without knowing the entire context of the message. This "asshole" was not saying we should just leave these people to fend for themselves, he was advocating microfinancing as an alternative to fighting poverty. It has provided one thing to people that charity cant.. a sense of pride and self sufficiency. These low interest loans (provided primarily to women) have gained wide support for its unexpected success. Its worth reading

[raveninaforest]

@thepharmacist73

"The last post referrs to rampant corruption, poor infrastructure, etc. as is it were like the weather.. random bad luck completely out man's control."

Obviously there is human agency behind much of these problems. But it's the agency of the political class in those countries; often who are unelected. The average people born into these countries, for them it is a case of bad luck: the bad luck of "individuals" being born into poverty without the opportunities to escape it.

[raveninaforest]

@thepharmacist73

"The first thing I would say to those who say that we must come and give, otherwise these people are incapable of improving their situation and getting out of poverty."

I think it's pretty clear who he is referring to here. "Those who say that we must come and give" is an obvious reference to the make poverty history campaign and its intellectual supporters such as Peter Singer and Peter Unger. By "these people", I think it's clear that he means people living in poor countries.

[thepharmacist73]

I beleive TD was referring to the society as a whole and not the individual. The last post referrs to rampant corruption, poor infrastructure, etc. as is it were like the weather.. random bad luck completely out man's control. In order to do good we must first correctly dianose the problem.. even if we dont like the answer. It takes intellectual honesty and courage especially when faced w/ ad hominem attacks from those unable or unwilling to give up their ideological precepts.

[raveninaforest]

What an asshole. How can people born into a village with no school, in a country with rampant corruption, poor infrastructure, no health care services and a weak economy just magically lift themselves out of poverty? Dalrymple is typical of the deluded right-wing view that people can just pull themselves up by the bootstraps regardless of circumstance. He , like men, was fortunate enough to have been born into a country where earning a good living is possible. He needs to develop some empathy.

[tjmacaus17]

My favourite writer

[Finnbar01]

For those who would like to read more about Theodore Dalrymple, google 'theodore dalrymple Skepitcaldoctor'.

[speeds3]

this is great. will you post more videos of Theodore Dalrymple?

[RATM4LYFE]

Agreed. So what is Dr. Dalrymple proposing?