Beethoven - Missa Solemnis (D-Dur, opus 123) Credo II

[eugenecoreno]

Who does the fastest et vitam venturi of any you know?

[carlosLor]

Beethoven was in god

[camapeque]

God was in Beethoven !!!

[billy12080]

None of us can look into Beethoven's heart. We might think we are when we analyze and parse and otherwise take apart this heroic music. But, objectively, he has presented the text of the Mass, set it to music unparalleled in splendor. Consider the music as it begins "Et ! Resurrexit tertia die secundum". From here to the conclusion of the Credo, one is transported to paradise!

[IsaacH1273]

beethoven was deeply religious/spiritual, just not in the traditional sense. look it up, y'all. just because you don't go to mass doesn't mean you don't believe in higher power/God.

ps. i can't believe i'm actually contributing to one of these silly arguments. just enjoy the damn music for crying out loud.

[Alecs1950]

If Beethoven did not believe in God, how could him write such a work which he himself said that he wanted to arouse the religious feelings in the heart of musicians and listeners?

[Alecs1950]

Beethoven is the elect of God through gospel music that has brought mankind.: Who believes in Christ has eternal life

[Twjdfa]

Cuando despues de una tormenta aparece el sol y el arcoiris la esperanza el sosiego la alegria ,,,!!La Libertad y el amor y la Paz Beethoven Gracias por querer esta intención ojala la humanidad escuchara tu musica y se arreglara el mundo de desgracias

[buggerationable]

And offcourse this performance was with the Concertgebouw Orchestra in the Netherlands! And now our new rightist government wants to cut so much expenses that this and the other big orchestras in the Netherlands will go bankrupt and have to quit!!

[JOrgeZalSerr]

AMEN

[streglia]

in fact, our conductor, was FANATIC (and rightfully so) about all of us getting out eyes out of our scores and watching him because he would adjust the speed of his rhythms from one phrase to the next depending on his impromptu interpretation of how the sounds were working at that very moment. you HAVE to have a very precise baton if you're being anything else but a machine. this performance of missa solemis is VERY mechanical. it's easy to see why.

[desideriius]

@streglia t is impossible to surpass this performance of missa solemnis as Bernstein has it. The rest were lousy in this part of Credo, and at the Et Vitam, which should be played very very fast, as Beethoven puts it. Musicians complained to Beethoven during his time that some of his pieces are impossible to perform. What it his reply? "Does he really suppose that I am thinking of his puling little fiddle when the spirit spoke to me and I write music?" Beethoven would have it the difficult way.

[UlfenDaddy]

@streglia Bernstein was quite an enigma: while certainly a fine musician, I have felt since I was very young that his level of conducting was VASTY over-rated. His was a case of "hype," purely and simply, and there was certainly substance to the rumor )as early as 1945) that it was Bribery which got him upon the podium for his "great debut." I played under Lenny in youth orchestra, etc and he was a VERY difficult conductor to follow, mechanical in one moment and wildly expressive in another...

[UlfenDaddy]

-and often that "expressive" highly animated style of conducting was in precisely those moments where it was most irritating and least helpful to the musicians trying (valiantly and often unsuccessfully) to understand his direction and follow. Nor did he make himself clear in rehearsal; and would often conduct very differently in performance than he had for rehearsals! Orchestra players hardly ever knew what he might do or want from them; and I think That is obvious in his performances.

[UlfenDaddy]

To me, they sound muddled, confused: wildly rushing tempo here and plodding, ponderous in the next moment. Various sections of the orchestra (or choir) coming in slightly off-cue was an hallmark of Bernstein concerts, and that was almost NEVER their fault. This performance of Missa leaves me cold, which says a lot considering this work, more than ANY other, I feel is the very Essence of symphonic Art and the very glory of Mankind. It takes a lot to make THAT banal and trite, but Lenny did it...

[streglia]

for those who have chastised me for criticizing bernstein so severely, i just finished a concert at carnegie hall three weeks ago, in a concert that combined our choir with 6 more from across the country and sweden. i ran my criticisms of bernstein amongst a number of the attendees, and they all agreed that someone who conducts like he does would drive them nuts.

[desideriius]

@streglia They may all agree, just as the musicians resents Beethoven's conducting. Our modern musicians would have an easy way. Beethoven would have his own way, and his own interpretations to his piece often caused antagonism between he and the performers. Is it a wonder that your attendees are driven nuts if Beethoven would have this Credo part "very very fast'? Benstein is still the best. Well, post your own performance and I will be judge to it if it surpasses Bernstein

[desideriius]

Jesus said, "And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice" (John 16:22). Instead of looking at some minor flaws in conducting and interpretations, why not center our thoughts on the hope of our salvation, Jesus Christ? "Et Vitam venturi saeculi amen" (I wait for the Life of the world to come).This longing was internalized by Beethoven himself as expressed in this lively piece at 05:30. Do we long for Christ's coming? -Artaxerxes M. Garcia

[michaelmisanthrope]

The trouble with divine attribution is that while it may instill humility in some, it has a dangerous counter part. Nature shows us that we exist between poles--that everything has its opposite: good/evil; love/hate; feminine/masculine; etc. The opposite of divine attribution is satanic attribution (the devil made me do it). Humans need to take responsibility for both the good and the evil that we bring to our home here on Earth . For God's sake, don't think!

[desideriius]

Your trouble is just in your mind. It is not a bother to me if I attribute all goodness to God, because He causes it. No human is capable of producing a single good work unaided by divine providence. Why, do you believe in Evolution? Does humanism or existentialism makes sense today? Such crooked theories of man will not endure. God reigns. Atheists are pests of human soceity.

[yohannbiimu]

I like Otto Klemperer's interpretation of this better. It is tends to be a bit slower, but not plodding and monotonous as some can be. I think this tends to be a bit too fast for my taste.

[aemngiignmea]

I don't see what the big deal is about Missa Solemnis. Beethoven treats voices too much like instruments and he puts too much emphasis on orchestration. further more, it's a bit silly making the vocal parts this difficult - it should be more accessible. No, Handel and Haydn definately surpass Beethoven (clearer sense of form, vocal writing, melodic invention, etc).

[desideriius]

But the world loves Beethoven's Missa Solemnis than Haydn's or Handel's masterpieces. In the entire history of music, none can surpass Beethoven's in complexity and grandeur. This video is even greater than your comment here, hehehe.. Does it make you silly being lost at the labyrinth of the difficult vocals? It empowers great-minded hearers. Or maybe you need to change you mainstream, conventional way of thinking. You cannot comprehend complex music.

[streglia]

I know I'm pounding away at Leonard here but my god, I recently visited my daughter during her conductor's class at 1 of the top music schools, and I just observed Bernstein violate a rule someone in Conducting 101 learns not to do. You NEVER use both hands to conduct the beat! What help is that to the perfomers? Use your dominant hand to conduct the beat and your other hand to give instructions (louder/softer, cue the tenors to come in, stuff like that).

[streglia]

The flailing away of his arms is simply maddening, because he never stops his arms to tell you where the individual beats are! AND WHEN HE STARTS ROLLING HIS HANDS OVER AND OVER like a traveling violation in basketball, where's the f'n beat there? OMG! The relatively few times when he conducts the right way, the difference should be so clear to anyone who watches him closely. Good thing the performers obviously know what they're supposed to be doing.

[desideriius]

Where now are your great conductors? Can they suprass Bernstein? Although he was dead, he's got a name in history. He had origniality in interpreting. And he was world-popular, no matter how small-minded critics cavil on his violations. WHAT'S IMPORTAND IS THE MUSIC PRODUCED. Where are the music of your critics? I never heard any..

[streglia]

I have to tell you, that I am drawn to the inevitable conclusion that all Bernstein is doing by conducting, is trying to add a visually dramatic effect for the audience. He certainly isn't helping the performers with his conducting. See why I say that in my post immediately below.

[sstuddert]

@streglia there is much more to conducting than just keeping the beat. In anycase, this particular orchestra may have already rehearsed the work over and over again. Bernstien knows what he's doing, that's why the orchestra doesn't fall apart and that's why his interpretations are so good.

[streglia]

As a singer in the choir when this piece was performed at the Eastman School of Music with soloists from the Met, and as a 50-year choir singer in a great many choirs great and small, important and not, highly skilled and not, I have to put in my $.02, that I would be very angry if my conductor conducted me the way Bernstein is conducting here. His beats are incredibly imprecise and sloppy. You want a snap of the wrist on the beat so you know PRECISELY where your conductor expects you to be.

[streglia]

I have to agree that the "et ascendit" section (at the start of this video) is insanely fast, but the "et vitam venturi" section, well know for its ridiculously fast pace the 2nd time around, I have to tell you, that the performance I participated in of this in 1984, did this section even faster.

[antimatterXXXIII]

@streglia You can't trust Beethoven's metronome marks - he was very poor at converting his intuitive understanding of meter into numbers. The metronome was a new device and Beethoven only put the marks on his late works. For the most part you can forget about them, e.g. in the piano sonata Op. 106, the piece is absurd when played at the marked tempo. There are no reports of Beethoven playing unusually fast, just brilliantly.

[yohannbiimu]

@antimatterXXXIII: your opinion of bad or absurd is probably merely that which you are not used to listen to, rather than what should be. I find it amusing how you question Beethoven's own stated markings in damning this performance. Your arrogance is comical. If you don't like this then fine. If you don't like how Beethoven marked this composition, then fine. If you don't like the way Bernstein kept time with this music, then fine. But to say that this is a "bad performance" is nonsense.

[antimatterXXXIII]

@yohannbiimu Are you kidding? I've heard countless performances of this work, and own the three best I've found. I owned Lenny's entire Beethoven cycle. Lenny is sloppy! He's known to be sloppy. Some professional musicians cannot bear a single bar of it. His conducting technique is to put on a strained face and flail away heedless of the tempo or the band or the singers. He's fine for show music and a good person, but a terrible conductor.

[tigerssuck62]

@antimatterXXXIII it's still your assertion that Beethoven himself didn't know what he was doing when he set the tempo to his music. I disagree, but my disagreement is obviously one of opinion, while your assertive mind cannot allow for anything opposing your constituted view of how this music can or should be played. To me, your coming here to spew all over this speaks more about where your head is shoved up into rather than anything that matters about this performance.

[sstuddert]

@antimatterXXXIII this is heavenly compared to some interpretations.

[sstuddert]

@antimatterXXXIII you really don't know wht you're talking about. You can't just be able to read to understand this kind of music, you have to be able to think aswell.

[sstuddert]

@antimatterXXXIII it doesn't matter, it is obvious that Beethoven intended for the credo to be sung fast, it doesn't take much stylistic sense to know this. Almost nothing is done easily in Beethoven's late works. You must understand this most beautiful aspect of his art - the edge of what is humanly possible.

[antimatterXXXIII]

Was Lenny on drugs? This is almost twice too fast, the singers are off mark constantly, the players can't keep up with his chemical histrionics - typical Bernstein. Amazing how hard it is to ruin Beethoven - he comes close but fails. Well, almost fails. A bad performance. Try Giulini/New Philharmonia.

[diehuts]

Not at all.

The "Et vitam venturi" has to be sung as fast as possible. Beethoven himself marked it very very fast. It shows the limit of human possibilities.

[antimatterXXXIII]

I cannot possibly disagree enough in the allowed space! Please respond, I will attend to this fantasy one note at a time!

The "Et Vitam" has to be sung as if you believe the life to come is real - starting with the high B-flats.

[Wallace1234567890]

To me, the slow Et Vitam is like God showing the promise first. Beethoven gave us time to absorb this. By the time we have thought through it and got excited enough, the fast fugue is a triumphant celebration. I agree that the fugues have to be sung as if we believe it, but I also think the same theme conveys different emotions - one reflective, the other triumphant.

[antimatterXXXIII]

@diehuts Not so - fugues are rarely played at maximum speed, because it destroys the strong beat which allows the fugue to be appreciated.

[diehuts]

@antimatterXXXIII Of course it's easier to play and to listen to fugues being played slow. But the words "Et vitam venturi saeculi" where intended to be played fast, as if humanity wants to reach heaven and comes as close as possible. Of course that's only what I am thinking about it (and other people, like Bernstein seemingly).

[peaceric]

if this were twice too fast, as you say it is, it would take 40 minutes to do the credo...

[yohannbiimu]

@antimatterXXXIII: most conductors play Beethoven far too slowly than he intended it to be played, especially his symphonies. I'd wager that Bernstein is fairly close to Beethoven's markings and metronome timing. Beethoven pushed performers to the limits of what was physically possible.

[yohannbiimu]

@antimatterXXXIII:  Moreover, as to your assertion that this is "a bad performance," that is an opinion. My opinion is that it is a sublime performance. How about trying to keep your opinions from being so dogmatically judgmental.

[sstuddert]

@antimatterXXXIII are you deaf? Giulini's is the worst I have ever heard, you can hardly hear the orchestra at certain times and it is TOO SLOW, MUCH TOO SLOW. this is just about as fast as it should be.

[Bonkitybonk]

beethoven was deeply religious but didn't adhere to any organized religion- he was smart.

et vitam venturi saeculi amen translates into:

"and the life of the world to come" amen. this fugue is tremendous, and treacherous to sing.

[Alecs1950]

You do not have to adhere to a religious organization to become a Christian but he must receive Christ into your heart, that is to believe that he died on the cross for your sins.Beethoven believed with all his being.

He wrote the Missa Solemnis to call the world's peoples to repentance and faith in Him.

[TIBUIN]

omg, wery wery. OK. wann stellt mal einer kurt masurs aufnahme ein?

[thegoddescomposer]

the title of the end fuga is

I Wait For the Life Of The World To Come

[Alecs1950]

@thegoddescomposer I wait for the Life of the world to come,too.Maranatha!

[sstuddert]

"Et Vitam Venturi Saeculi!" I love it.

[thegoddescomposer]

omfg this is so beautifull 05.29 untill 07.24 owwh god the voice of god of suffer sorrow pain the power of beethoven, damn omfg cant stop listening ,

[thegoddescomposer]

MASTER PIECE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[thegoddescomposer]

beethoven believed in god, but in his own way

[beethomozart]

this continuation of the credo begins with the resurrexit, the theme of prepotent plasticity recalls Beethoven's great symphonies openings, we have to mention the perfect fugue "Et vitem venturam" at the end of this credo which is a model of a magistral polifonic part, seem to be the heart of the mass, Beethoven suggested more than once that this masterpiece to be presented as an oratorio, long live ludwig van

[cubsrule2040]

2:50-3:01 sounds like the first movement of the 8th symphony

[Wallace1234567890]

I think it's important to take note of what Beethoven did in the setting of the music. For instance, the huge contrast between Et Incarnatus est and Et resurrexit ter is not "something cool to have" in the music, but to bring out the emotion of the humble birth and death of Jesus and the contrasting exuberance of the resurrection. I doubt if he set the piece this way just because "it was a cool story about God and I should make it livelier with music".

[taviona]

Haha, Bernstein at 06:10. :D Best part of the Missa solemnis imo.

[LDixon007]

Et Vitam Venturi....!

[abelzc10]

I don't know why im listening to this boring ass shit

[desideriius]

because you're a stupid asshole!!! hahaha...

[sstuddert]

There really are no words in the english language that can properly express the stupidity of people like yourself.

[mathistle]

I hear so many people referring to God! Beethoven was not a religious man but a true humanist. Personally I think its terrible how many of us place this creation on God, not the man, Beethoven would be so upset to think we still believe in medieval crap!

[deandusk]

u think beethoven was just bored and decided to name this missa solemnis ? and put these words and these titles ? you have to have a very poor soul, sorry for you

[desideriius]

"Humanism" never existed in Beethoven's vocabulary.. He is not just religious but that he is deeply spiritual.. Your humanism is nonsense to Beethoven,,hahaha

[UlfenDaddy]

@desideriius Particularly in this period of his life. He assisted at Mass quite regularly, and to prepare for this work had a full German translation made not only of the text of the (Ordinary of the) Mass but the rubrics and Quo Primum as well. His was not a "public" kind of religion, but a true and deep inward (CATHOLIC) Faith. This Credo ("I Believe") is a very personal statement of that Faith. The superscription on Agnus Dei says it best: "Vom Herzen, moge es zum Herzen gehen."

[FilipeBrasAlmeida]

I quite agree with you.

[desideriius]

As a humanist, that's how you look at Beethoven and his works. If you don't believe in God because you're a humanist, do you think Beethoven would have such worthless atheist as his admirer? You don't know Beethoven. Beethoven wrote "There is no loftier mission than to approach the Godhead, and by means of that conact spread its rays to the world." GET OUT OF HERE, YOU SATAN!""

[sstuddert]

...calm down...

[sstuddert]

Beethoven certainly believed in God. He may not have been in love with the church (and you can't really blame him), but he certainly believed in God.

[enminatieda]

yep. but he did so in the pantheistic sense. the church/catholism he did not agree with.

[sstuddert]

Well, before I go on, I might remind you that not alot is actually known about Beethoven's religious beliefs and much, too much, is assumed. For example, some people actually believe that Beethoven was a mason.

However, I'm sure it's safe to say that, while he did see God in nature and was not the kind of person who would go to church every sunday (like Bach would have), he did believe in one God.

[enminatieda]

"However, I'm sure it's safe to say that... he did believe in one God."

out of curiosity, what leads you to be certain of that, if indeed not a lot is known and too much assumed when it comes to Beethoven's religious beliefs?

[sstuddert]

All you need to do is read a few of his letters and you'll most probably come to the conclusion that he believed in one God aswell.

Anyway, I'm baisicaly agreeing with you. While Beethoven believed in one God, he also saw that one God in nature.

[enminatieda]

ah, allright.

[jesusthroughmary]

So you challenge his premises when you think he disagrees with your conclusion, but accept them without further explanation when you believe him to agree with you?

[enminatieda]

whether or not Beethoven believed in just ONE God, is not of significant interest to me. I misunderstood sstuddert's post and thought he was implying Beethoven was a practicing christian, which is the complete opposite of what I had heard. and THAT is why I asked what led him to believe so.

and regardless, I wasn't trying to debate or challenge anything. I was just curious.

[jesusthroughmary]

Fair enough.

[Alecs1950]

@mathistle Beethoven was a veritable christian.Sorry but you dont know the Holly Spirit who divinizes the men you cant believe in Christ because you are full of yourself>Beethoven believed.

[albertoritter]

It was composed for the cosmos.

[deandusk]

i mean , of course it's boring for you [and for others like you]

[leeresblatt]

what is ME, that is the question, the most important question ;)

[deandusk]

who are you ? what are you ? don't know... nobody and nothing i guess ;)

[sstuddert]

I love it when people, like yourself, express their stupidity for all to see.

[akkadiandirtbag]

you are you :D nothing and something. nothing matters anyway

[deandusk]

:)) of course it is, it was composed for good people, in which category u obviously can't manage to fit

[albertoritter]

Beethoven is a miracle.

[songblam]

"Dear Lord: please bring Ludwig back to earth and let me be his gardener, and please make him the happiest most fulfilled human being on the planet....just as his music does for me...."

Oh, and could you please bring me to another choir to sing this once again soon? Thank you." --a mere mortal...

[ArtaxerxesMGarcia]

The Majesty of YaHWeH the Son cannot be overestimated in this grand piece of Beethoven. One has to delve into the very root of spirituality, viz., the richnes of the Godhead found in the Scriptures itself!

[xz645]

"et vitam venturi" is the absolute peek of the whole of human civilisation. if there is a god, what i do not believe, the sole purpose of the creation can only have been to see whether mankind would at one stage be capable of realising something like 'et vitam venturi.' it is mankind's greatest spiritual achievement.

[ArtaxerxesMGarcia]

When the YaHWeH Godhead moves the wheels of genius all the energies of the mind are activated, and the whole morality of the soul are elevated, ennobled, and dignified, and resembles more of a divine than human. Christ - the Reason, the Wisdom of the Godhead is the One who controls the forces even the brilliancy of Beethoven's mind..

[nostalgiaopera]

The Et vitam venturi is BORING??? Man, you gotta sing it - the fugue is one of the hardest choral pieces ever written and it is so much fun - and this from a mezzo who was crazy and sang the SOPRANO part.

[ArtaxerxesMGarcia]

to an ordinary modern listener it is boring... I don't see it as you musicians see it. So let me have my own opinion... I merely suggest in behalf of all who may not have the taste of the boring part.

[ArtaxerxesMGarcia]

if from 1:35 is boring, proceed to 5:27 >> it is from mysterious simple to explosion.. It is as though the Godhead were talking to Each Other in a language human beings cannot understand. YHWH/JeHoVaH -the Godhead of awful glory, no Allah can be compared to Him. Jesus brings the whole YHWH Godhead in His own Person. Touch Him and you touch the entire YHWH Godhead.

[ArtaxerxesMGarcia]

Those who want to hear and sense the awesome Godhead must listen to this music thoroughly! Beethoven once wrote,"There is no loftier mission than to approach the Godhead more nearly than other mortals and by means of that contact to spread the rays of the Godhead  through the human race." This music have been the Source of my defense mechanism, the YaHWeH Godhead in it! -Artaxerxes M. Garcia

[desideriius]

Music is asmong the most potent of all forces to alter human consciousness for better or for worse according to music.. It may be that a nation's morale can rise no better than the spiritual and moral level of its music. Cheap music produces cheap people.

[desideriius]

the religious sentiments of Beethoven is almost Godlike... YHWH is inside Beethoven's mind as he wrote this grand piece

[PrincessJamieAyla]

God is in all of us, we just have to open our hearts and minds to touch Him

[desideriius]

this very music is inspired by the spirit of YHWH, the true God. Not Allah

[PrincessJamieAyla]

God is God whatever you call Him. It's mohammed who was deeply flawed.

[desideriius]

it is not just good to ovey and follow our Creator's will; it is indeed grand and awesome, even as this great Masterpiece of Beethoven performed by an orchestra obedient to Bernsrein's batoon. I cannot overemphsize the importance of aligning our will to the Creator in ioder to produce such heavy performance...

[desideriius]

In this conductor i see the aspect of my Lord YHWH, who became man. The God who would have all his creation agree with His will so that there will be an impressive harmony. If man could juts see how important it is to obey the will of our Creator even as this grnad orchestra obeys the will of its conductor, there will be joy and happines. But Humankind is idolatrous and disobedient. Do you notice it?

[bgaona]

Are you subtly referencing the Ninth here? (Ahnest Du, ihre Schoepfer, Welt?) Clever. :))

[desideriius]

No,,, I'm refering to this video in particular.. You see, how pleasant is the symphony when all musicians agree to the will of the conductor. Even so God wills His creation to produce a grand performance; if only humankind is obedient to His will, all is well.

[bgaona]

It's all the more remarkable that you're so much in the same philosophical/theological frame of mind as Beethoven and Schiller. There's a section of the Ninth Symphony that translates: "Bow down, all ye millions, ... Do you sense your creator, world?" You ended exactly as Schiller did in his stanza, earlier talking about divinity and "joy." The coincidence is as exciting as it is exact.

[desideriius]

Ahh, yes... Thank you bgaona.. I got your point.

[PrincessJamieAyla]

that phrase is one of the greatest ever written, the musical one I mean

[bgaona]

That's a big thing to say, but I'd have to agree with you, P.J.A. It's the nearest thing to crystallizing the mystic experience... sorry to sound so "new-agey." lol It's a rare kind of music, though.

[ArtaxerxesMGarcia]

Hello, I don't get your point "crystallizing the mystic experience".. Would you tell me what you mean by that phrase?

[desideriius]

this is inspired by YHWH...