Private health care worked very, very well until around 1960, when government started serious regulation. Since then it just went downhill to a degree where even socialized health care seems like a decent alternative.
This just makes me laugh. People say that we are the wealthiest country, sure we are but when people see how this is going to put us in debt, they are going to wish we didnt do this. This is going to put us more debt by 1 trillion dollars! Obama said he was going to get us out of debt, ha bullshit.
If everyone, including corporations paid their fair share, there wouldn't be a burden on the individuals. We are the wealthiest is a misnomer. 1% of the US population holds 99% of that wealth. The rest of us are just trying to pay off our mortgages before we die from lack of health care. How many people do you know, between 30-50 years old that own their homes?
you people are un-American, sorry you lot of socialists don't understand how we do things here, we choose to tie insurance to employment because WE WANT PRODUCTIVITY!!! Not lazy entitlement whores, we have far, far too many of those already! All of you and your anecdotal friends need to head straight to Europe!
Why don't these fucking assholes give the affordable health care to their neighbors if its so possible. Useless pigs. They are just wanting more things they don't deserve.
They ware cloths made by slaves.
They drive cars powered by war oil
They betray every American value with every action.
We are all going to pay dearly for creating such a disgusting empire out of this once noble American Enterprise.
We are all guilty as hell and know our hands are caught in the cookie jar. Justice is coming
Slavery has been long gone, we could are not at war for oil we have plenty in the US, and our now leftist government is what is betraying us. We should pay for a neighbor's healthcare, but let another neighbor live under opression. Thats the leftist logic
Really, you think china is a free country? Oh and bad news. Your a slave. Look at the money you use. Those are your chains. You can't live with out it. You were trained that way, because you have owners.
We have plenty of thick sour crude, that is extremely cost intensive to produce and refine. Its impossible to raise production rates in the US. Physically impossible. Water cut issues ALONE make it so.
digging the atlas shrugged man. !!!!!Get your liberty!!!!!
I never mentioned China, I am no slave, we have oil along with other energy sources, and I read Atlas Shrugged. I have my liberty and I will fight to keep it.
The war was not for oil... though spiteful Bush haters will tell you otherwise. Now, I'm not going to get into a political BS debate or who's dick is bigger. But I will say that the war was not for oil. If the war was for control of the oil we would have taken it a long time ago. We're still paying for our oil. The largest oil companies are still paying, and the Saudi's are happy to sell it. But give it 20 years, Dubai will crumble to the ground.
To the disbelief of many, the war be you for it or against it, (honestly I don't care which) Was a military strategy to gain ground in the middle east. And what better way to use 9/11 and our pain to support an invasion of Iraq as well as what was needed Afghanistan. I'm not saying going into Iraq was a bad move, it could have been handled differently of course. Having both Iraq and soon to have Afghanistan it will give our Government a larger stronghold on that region.
If if keeps the world a bit safer then I'm for it. As for health care, we'll see if they fuck it up good come completely revolutionize it into something that works or something that later down the road can be fixed or patched to work. We'll see. But I personally believe having insurance should relate to you having a job, or have had one. But I can't speak for everyone... as I've always had a job.
Let me state this so you can understand where im coming from. I was born in a communist country. My family experienced real socialism, where there would be lines of people waiting for a food voucher for some bread, potatoes, and milk. And thats all you had to work with for each day. I dont see how this is socialistic in anyway, as ive truly experienced it first hand in the most extreme form
First off no country in the history of man kind as ever achieved a communist state, only socialists calling themselves communists and saying they want a communist state. Second off I was born in the soviet union and lived in Moldova.
Socialized health care is socialism, since it destroys that specific private sector of the economy, leaving it only for the extremely wealthy. Just because something doesn't follow all the tenets of socialism doesn't mean its not socialist.
well then based on your perspective, i must be a socialist? Private Health "IS" only for those who can afford it, socialized health care, is for everyone
If you believe in forced wealth redistribution through government, and government take over of the private sector then yes, you are a socialist. Private health care is very affordable here and even if you are too poor to afford it people in the US can apply for government assistance and get it anyways.
mhmm...... 100,000 dollars for heart surgery... very affordable indeed.
Im assuming your a high income earner, and this is why u feel bad about the reform. U dont want to give up some of your precious pay to someone who may need assistance.
so then why do you feel bad if someone else might be paying for your coverage in case something does happen? If you cant afford it now, then whats wrong with getting assistance? The reason why the system doesnt really work in the US, is because there are no laws or restrictions that protect you when you pay for this coverage. So paying for a surgery, and then being put on a 6 month waiting list, is absurd
Because stealing is wrong even when the government does it. I can afford health care now since I'm paying for it, and the extremely poor in my country that cant afford it can apply for government assistance. Forcing system down the throats of everyone wont be good for anyone. If your insurance covers the surgery they have to pay it or at least part of it depending on the insurance.
I dont see it as stealing. We all pay taxes so that our country can sustain itself, it also goes towards spending on public services. If these services are denied, or being abused, then that would be considered as stealing and extortion
Well over taxation is basically legal theft from the government, since they are paying way more then they are receiving. That's why I think we should have a flat tax where everyone over the welfare line pays the same percentage in taxes.
I agree with that as well. As long as there is some sort of responsibility from the government to spend on public services. I am perfectly fine with paying an understandable tax rate
I'm not arguing that the government doesn't need to spend on public services, but I'm for small government. When you have large governments you pay more in taxes and they are less productive, and history has shown that the larger a government is the less freedoms you have.
Yes exactly, Im all for a balance where the government has some stipulations in certain aspects of the marketplace where certain levels of spending are monitored, but also that the government is responsible with their spending and actions, and do not interfere directly with any form of business. We dont want prices to rise, but we dont want products to become exclusive to certain people.
What is really becoming a problem is CEOs that have been stealing money from the company for private things
Well CEOs are taking those funds from companies as bonuses even if the company cant afford them because the government has got the "too big to fail mentality", that if a company is too big they cant let it fail, which I find really stupid. If the government stop bailing out those corporations then those CEO's couldnt take those extra bonuses if their company was doing bad.
Yes, i dont agree with the bailout plans either... they are a complete waste of time and money, there is no guarantee that the money is even going towards the restructuring of the business.
But if there was no government assistance. Would the company not go under then?
If a company is destroying wealth they need to go under. A new and much more productive company will then take its place(or more then one company will take its place).
yes, but if the country depends on business like these to sustain itself, companies going under would mean that the inflation rate would rise, and government debt would also rise. The country would have to pull back on certain public services and project spending since there wouldnt be enough income coming from the companies to supply these needs.
Its a very fine line that government and business have between each other, unless a government run by a business were established?
Not really, failing companies going bankrupt is healthy for the market place, if companies that destroy wealth go under other companies will quickly replace them. Inflation is when the government expands the currency or in other words prints more money.
Trust me, you don't want government run by business, because that's what we basically have now lol.
lol That is pretty sad then. In Canada there are certain codes and regulations as to the workplace environment and the rights that certain people have when working. But the government doesnt interfere in the business of the market. We have universal health care that comes from more than one supply source, and that keeps the cost of health care down to a point. It isnt a bad system, but the lack of doctors makes it difficult to get a quick response for certain cases
Huge amounts of profit was made by USA corps recently, problem is no wealth was produced, much was taken overseas so the corps declared zero taxable income. (transfer pricing).
the right lie.
wealth is low crime, forsets, clean air, fish in the rivers, healthcare, education, balanced economy, sustainability,
If USA taxed the richest like Europe, every USA citizen would have $11,000 more!
Redneck fools defending the nastiest insurance corps; is a sick joke.
You're a complete idiot that has no idea how the market works, the extremely wealthy that own businesses don't pay taxes. If they are taxed more by the government they just pass down the costs to the consumer through higher prices, hurting everyone. Also, oppressive taxation is not only immoral, its legal theft through the government. learn what wealth is, because what you described isn't wealth. Racists such as yourself defending socialism is a sick joke.
If you weren't racist you wouldn't use bigoted slurs like red neck. The link to the right and segregationist is clear? It was the democrats and the left that started the kkk and the white supremacist movement in America, so what you just said is an outright lie. I'm defending private property rights and business rights, you don't have a right to another mans wallet. (continued)
In the US we have the greatest quality of health care in the world, and the majority of Americans can afford it, and those who cant afford it have it provided by the government. Lol, no we have the best system, no other country has the level of quality that our health care has. Alex Jones is the best we have? Alex Jones is a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist joke.
No we have the best quality of health care overall, and we have it because its private industry. The insurance companies don't dump poorer people, I guess you don't know how insurance works, you don't pay upfront for the costs of the treatment. So you think any private industry is far right? What a joke. The only reason that we even have high prices for anything is because of government involvement like obamas doing. They distort the market and that raises prices.
Hitler preached class warfare, agitating the working class to resist ``exploitation'' by capitalists, particularly Jewish capitalists, of course. Their program called for the nationalization of education, health care, transportation, and other major industries. They instituted and vigorously enforced a strict gun control regimen. (Continued)
They encouraged pornography, illegitimacy, and abortion, and they denounced Christians as right-wing fanatics. The Nazis were left wing, to say that they werent is to be uneducated.
Hitler followed the same game plan. He openly acknowledged that the Nazi party was ``socialist'' and that its enemies were the ``bourgeoisie'' and the ``plutocrats'' (the rich). Like Lenin and Stalin, Hitler eliminated trade unions, and replaced them with his own state-run labor organizations. Like Lenin and Stalin, Hitler hunted down and exterminated rival leftist factions (such as the Communists). Like Lenin and Stalin, Hitler waged unrelenting war against small business.
He was all the small thugs who just wanted the system to work
to get rid of the weak clogging up the pavements and tax revenue.
It is exactly the same choice we have now.
Do we let the weak die and compete more and more fiercely killing markets and other nations for American Glory!!! for the strong breaking through the chaos!!!!
or do we plan and cooperate our way out. looking after each other with dignity.
Did you just disregard everything else I've said? Hitler was a socialist, socialism is far left wing. Hitler was both economically left and socially left on the political scale. The weak dont die in the united states, we give more to charity then any other nation on earth. You Dont even have to work in the united states to make a living, you can go to a food bank, or soup kitchen and eat like a king. (continued)
In a socialist country if you did the same thing you would starve to death and even if you worked there was a chance you would starve to death. The only exception is with Hitlers regime because he stole wealth from other nations. The right is what gives the united states the standard of living we have today aka capitalism.
Norway and Sweden use capitalism, they arent socialist, to be considered socialist you have to not have private property rights. Also, no they arent the wealthiest population in the world. They arent innovative either, what have they invented compared to the rest of the world? President obama is a bad joke. I could never support a closet socialist joke like him. Genuine rights lol? We have more rights in the US then in any country on earth. Norway doesn't even have freedom of speech.
Hitler regarded capitalism as an evil scheme of the Jews and said so in speech after speech. Karl Marx believed likewise. In his essay, ``On the Jewish Question,'' Marx theorized that eliminating Judaism would strike a crippling blow to capitalist exploitation. Hitler put Marx's theory to work in the death camps.
Everything Hitler did was left wing, actually read what I type. Libertarianism is a right wing ideology because we believe in free markets and capitalism, no one said that it wasn't right wing. segregationists is a left wing ideology, it was propelled by the left wing in modern times. You need to learn what fascism is instead of baselessly using the word.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
You live in a dream world zetsway
It is nothing but dogma, it is all you seem to know.
It is great IMO that the USA is going down the path of universal health coverage, this kind of thing is long overdue and is an inspiration to other states to cover their populations also.
A new era of cooperation and dignity is dawning, and a new way of Americans to feel proud of themselves as good ppl. as we do in the UK with our socialized healthcare,
How do I live in a dream world? You're confusing me with yourself. You advocate a system based on theft and absence of absolute human rights. The US isn't going down the path of socialized medicine, because the vast majority of Americans don't want it, and the government knows this. (continued)
You cant call forcing someone to do something behind the barrel of a gun cooperation and dignity. You can keep your failed system in the Uk and your police state where the government is allowed to install cameras into your home and monitor you 24/7.
You cannot say that because the Japanese do something it will work. Their culture is completly different. Work is the most important thing along with honor. Perfect example(real life) :A worker who does poorly will get his responsibilites taken away, still getting full pay, and this is bad for it is shameful and workers aviod this as best as possible. Over here you would have people begging for that.
From what I've seen Progresiviems has been a horrible mess, especially where they have a lot of influence.
Capitalism, no we don't have capitalism.
What you are talking about is Socialism, which I'm for at a State level, not at the Federal level.
We are not Japan, as much as I admire that society, no we won't be Ok. The Samurai will have to be abolished in our society to be more like Japan, that's not going to happen.
10 year slowdown going back to the 1990's? I don't get that statement.
those of you who fear socialsim lets not dick around, lets burn our medicare ,medicade and social securty cards. Lets not accept any workers comp,uneployment comp any kid of assistance from the goverment.
F0reseer listed off everything it takes to be a doctor. He left off the enormous malpractice insurance doctors must carry to protect themselves from this sue happy society we live in. The only tort reform this bill offers is that you can't sue the gov't when their healthcare fails you!
I am for Universal Healthcare but I must agree with you on this aspect of the debate. Doctors do need to be protected by legislation from frivolous lawsuits! There are many aspects of Healthcare in this country that needs to be completely overhauled!
I do think for myself, maybe you should grow a brain, and do research outside of your liberal think tank. The socialists are after my rights, and my money, obama being an example.
zetsway5000 - There was no one present who was opposed to health care reform. If there were I surely would have interviewed them to illustrate what ever their perspective might be. What's yours by the way? Do you think the present health care system is working fine? I'd be glad to interview you if you're in the Pasadena area. Tell the world your great ideas.
Did you honestly just say there is no one apposed to socialized health care? Please actually do some research on whos for and against this. Yes, the present health care system is working pretty good. We have the best health care in the world when it comes to quality. Can we make improvements to our current system to reduce costs? sure, its called getting government out of health care completely.
That's like asking if insurance companies should be able to make money of peoples cars, of course since its their own money they are using. Its called private property. If there isn't any profit in something no one will bother to put any research toward it.
The reality is socialism destroys the standard of living and large governments take away your rights. Socialized healthcare is just healthcare rationing by the government, even less people will be treated under it.
No its not "socialised" Its healthcare provided by the governement. Thats not socialist. Its common sense. How can something that covers everyone treat less people than a system that only treats those who can afford it.You still get private healthcare if you want it. Or you get government healthcare.
Yes it is, stealing money from one group of people to pay for another is socialism. It doesn't cover everyone. This plan will ration healthcare based off of age and gender, and will force private market forces out of the market through socialism. Health care isn't that expensive here, and many jobs have employer provided health care, and if you cant afford health care and youre poor the government already gives you health care at the expense of the tax payer.
No you wont get private health care if you want, actually read the bill instead of talking out of your ass. if you lose your health insurance in any way, shape, or form you can not get another private plan if this bill passes. It forces people into government healthcare.
Your government already pays more per capita than any government for your healthcare which is then rationed by greedy insurance companys who couldn't care less if you live or die. They answer to no one. Your healthcare is already rationed. Stop being blinded by words and ideologies.
It doesn't destroy standards either countries with more govt involvement have higher standards of living than the US
We pay so much for healthcare because the government interferes with the private market, and in effect artificial y raises prices. They shouldnt have to answer to anyone because its their business. Learn what private property rights are. No one forces you to buy insurance you can always pay upfront. My healthcare isn't rationed, learn what you're talking about. They do not have a higher standard of living. Again, learn what the hell you're talking about.
i doubt that.... I live in Canada and i dont feel limited to my healthcare coverage... i was treated for a broken arm, and many other occurances, even my family, if anything the downside is the long waiting line, but everything else is good
If you live in Canada and you like your health care that's fine. I'm not Canadian and I've experienced socialized medicine. I think it was complete crap as well as the other people I've talked to. The vast majority of people in the US don't want you failure socialized medicine that rations care.
i dont see my medicine being rationed in any way... If anything we have laws that protect the people that use these medicines so that they dont become addicted to the substance or start selling it on a street market.
Just because you haven't doesn't mean other haven't, you don't represent the vast majority of people using your failed system. Again, do some research because the service in your system is extremely rationed and lacking specialists.
If anything, the reason there would be lacking specialists, is because they feel there income of 80,000 or more is not good enough here, so they want to go to the US and practice there for 130,000 or more... I just want to point out Health Care is not a business nor a privatization, health is part of my well being, and i cant just start selling bodyparts on a private market
No health care is a business. The only thing that shouldn't be run unprivitised is the military and police. Socialized medicine runs on deficit spending.
Exactly my point, but it seems with insurance companies in the US, they can charge up the ass for their coverage. And if you heard the response Charles Boustany made, you would see that he wants to have "competition" for healthcare as a way to decrease the cost of coverage.. But that is complete BS
They can charge so much because our government distorts the market, if our government got out of health care they wouldnt charge as much, its the same thing with college. Before government got involved with health care less then 50 dollars could cover you for an entire year in the US. Government is in no way competition, they use other peoples money and they destroy wealth.
explain how the government "distorts"? see u havnt answered my question, i could just go and read up on some economics, but i want to hear from your viewpoint, how the government is making the scene worse
yes I did answer your question, if you knew anything about how the market works you would know what I said. Read up on supply and demand as well since you obviously dont know what you're talking about. When government subsidizes goods they become much more expensive.
again.. u failed to answer it..... all your doing now is just trying to insult my intelligence... which is failing. I know how supply and demand works. The government is only there to "filter" the good and bad products, based on laws that common people put together. If you go back to the days of rockafeller, you would then see just how bad it was when the government didnt intervene with the marketplace. Thank god Unions exist today, because back then, breaking ur arm at work would be ur fault
No I didn't fail to answer it, in fact I've answered it twice, this being the third time.When government subsidizes goods they become much more expensive. Unions have made my country uncompetitive, they are in no way good.
ok... so why dont u go to work at some construction firm, fall off a ladder, break your back, and then, go home without a job, without any coverage for medical attention, and no compensation. Well i guess your fucked then after that, arent you?>
If you have insurance it can cover it, and if you had savings like you're supposed to you could afford to leave work for a few weeks. The intentions of unions was good in the beginning, but nowadays they are nothing but political thugs, who bully people that arent in their unions, and destroy companies from the inside.
SO what your saying is, if your making 50,000 or 100,000 a year, then your ok. You do realize we have more than one class of citizens in NA dont you? as far as i see it, Unions in Canada increase your payrate by 25 - 50 percent.. so someone working 12/hr would be making 19/hr if they join a union, plus benefits and insurance are covered.
Ya they increase your pay rate at the expense of the well being of the company, you wont even have a job if the company cant compete with other countries companies. Thats why we are losing so many jobs and why china is doing so well.
Well then tell me what you want.. You want to be making minimal pay, for the expense that you might keep your job longer, but what if your layed off, fired, or on a leave or serious injury? Business dont benefit my personal life or well being, and thats whats most imporant to me.
About China, well they manufacture all goods through sweat shops, so they hold all the keys when it comes to the economy of most westernized countries, since labour work doesnt exist in NA anymore
Seriously take a class in Austrian economics, they wont pay you minimum wage if you actually have some skills. If government got out of the market place your wages would actually increase. Of course businesses benefit from your life and well being. If you're dead you cant work, and it takes time to hire a skilled worker, and if your hurt you will be less efficient. They dont manufacture all their good from sweat shops lol.
Alot of products that are created in China are from labour shops where 5 - 13 year olds work for pennies a day to produce 100 dollar shoes over here in NA, now how is that a good trade off? I might as well go to China, buy the shoes for 13 cents, and comeback here
Its true that china does have sweat shops, but they are getting fewer and fewer in number and are being replaced with much more productive factories, with much older worker who produce much more. Children arent good workers and the chines are figuring this out.
Yes, but doesnt this spell disaster then for us living in the western world? I mean, if it takes 100 dollars worth of yen to produce nike shoes, we would have to pay 400 dollars or more for those shoes now? I thought u stated that competition and keeping things cheap was a good thing?
look at canada - the government runs the health care system, but i dont feel tied or forced into some form of extreme socialism. Making health care a business is wrong moral principles, and causes people to die because a few insurance companies want to make some money
I know people in Canada that tell me the health care system is over there is complete crap, and that they come to the US for specialists. They also told me that the waiting periods over there can be three months or longer for a specialist. Over here I can see a specialist in a few days if not sooner. Keep your morality out of government, its the same as adding religion to government. What you think is moral and what other people think is moral is completely different.
THats too bad for them, neither me, nor my family, nor any one i know has experienced a waiting time of 3 months for a specialist... thats complete nonsense
the truth is the waiting times in the hospital can drag on for a long time, like 8 hrs, but thats about as bad as i see it getting.
Plus our taxes are 13% added on when buying products, its not that high for my standards, and i like the system the way it is
and plz... dont compare Obama to Stalin, thats just stupid logic
Its not complete nonsense when statics proves that it happens all the time. Again, do some research. Eight hours is as bad as it gets? Ok now i know you don't know what you're talking about. Where in my comment did I compare obama to Stalin? Obama is obviously a socialist but not as bad as Stalin was.
... this is a waste of time responding too, I live here, i experience it real time here, as you never have, and u cant relate or accommodate to it. Ive seen both sides of health care, so i can say from my best judgement, Canadian system is better
I have also seen both systems in progress, if you read my comment you would know that I've experienced socialized medicine. You think its better because you probably have a small income and enjoy other people paying for you with other peoples money.
Thats why they document that Canadians come to this country for our specialists in droves? You are joking right? Do some research instead of running your mouth. Our health care system works much better then yours, we have the best quality care in the world, thats a fact. When it comes to cost its another matter, but most people can afford it or have it provided by their employer here.
Please, by all means, link me to a video or press that actually describes this event your talking about. As far as ive heard i havnt seen anything along those lines here. I wouldnt be surprised if Americans drove across the border here to get some "actual" results with their sickness
Thats why im calling ur bluff, show me, link me to some of this crap ur trying to sell to change my opinion about a broken system that has no evidence that suggests its working
Its not a bluff you uneducated moron type it in Google and you will get over a million results claiming the same damn thing back by evidence. Are you that stupid and lazy not to type it into a search engine?
Running on deficit spending and providing mediocre service means the program has failed. Sites that provide actual studies arent false or biased. Numbers cant be biased.
ofcourse numbers can be biased, by the person who put those numbers in, he could just add say another 10,000 to the count and say this is fact... completely ridiculous... numbers dont say anything to me, real peoples opinions and voices do, so far, i havnt seen much advocating for the current system
im assuming ur the last one to try and fight the "great" fight?
No numbers cant be biased especially when they are just recorded data based on facts, to say so you would have to throw out every study in existence. Real peoples opinions lol? asking your family what they think about health care isn't proper research. Again, look into Austrian economics.
statistics dont mean anything to me, there completely unreliable, a simple yes or no vote is not a very affective way of figuring out what people want. Taking the time to listen to someone for even a minute is much more accurate of a response..
And please. do care to show me these studies, the particular ones you viewed, it would greatly support your case here
In studies they don't just ask a single question, you keep proving to me that you don't actually do any research on this. I've viewed hundreds of studies on this subject, to memorize all the websites would be almost impossible. Again do a simmple google search and read some of their studies.
I read literally view and read hundreds of websites a day on different subjects. Unless I write done the websites I don't remember them, and I don't write down websites because I read all the articles in a single session most of the time. Do you not know how to do research?
No offense or anything... But you lost this one. You did a good job of keeping your ground, but you lost without any sort of facts. I wont lie, you may know more about this subject than I do, but that doesnt mean that everything you say is right for the well being of others.
The worst thing you can do is shun everyone who is not as intelligent as you on the subject because you feel they dont agree with your logic.
I don't think I've lost this one but that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I have used plenty of facts lol, but seriously check out a book on Austrian economics you will get a clear understanding of how government destroys wealth and makes everyone poorer.
where are your facts? all youve done is used big words to cover your statement - saying things like "distorts" "subsidizes" is not really relevant to me, that could mean anything, its not specific in anyway to your argument. U havnt explained SPECIFICALLY how the government "distorts" or "subsidizes" goods and services
Almost all my comments have had facts in them, its your job to research those facts. Its very specific if you understand market terms. When the government subsidizes something are basically guaranteeing that that product will be bought, and companies see this, and they raise prices based on supply and demand. Thats how government distorts the market.
Thank you for now explaining it to me. For that i am grateful. But i dont see how this isnt somewhat the business fault for being irresponsible with their marketing
Well its not really the businesses fault, this is how the market works. When a lot of people buy a certain product of service a company will raise prices for that product of service, but when barely any people buy that product or service they will lower the costs.
yes, when alot of people are buying. But if the business is being lead to believe it will sell because the government says so, that holds them accountable to their actions? I think the problem here lies with lack of knowledgeable CEOs and business owners.
Well the businesses arent responsible because its the government buying their product. If businesses didn't market based on supply and demand we would have supply shortages.
Perhaps then its not the health care reform that is an issue here, but the relationship between government and business? The government may be buying the product, but that doesnt translate how the business isn't responsible for how they market their product to sell in the first place. If anything, there should be a balence between the government buying the product, and the business supplying it, so that prices dont go skyrocketing through the roof
Now your starting to get it! That's exactly the issue here, the relationship between government and business, but you can call getting government out of business reform. That's the thing though, any government involvement with business will raise prices.
Yes, the question is how to solve it? If the goverment gets out of the market. It leaves more freedom for the business to adjust their prices. But it also leads to issues of "some people have it, some people dont" kind of thing, the business needs to act accordingly and responsibly on some sort of moral grounds, in order for the system to be working for the average person out there. I think the issue is that there is a gap in responsibility with these institutions, which is resulting in problems
Well I don't think its a gap in responsibility, its just how the market works. Government also creates artificial monopolies in the market place, because it makes some businesses harder to get into, leaving room for abuse.
but if you get government out the only way a monopoly can occur is if a company provides such a good product at such a good price that no one else can compete, and if thats the case then that kind of monopoly isnt that bad, but I doubt that type of monopoly could actually happen.
good point. But in terms of the health care business, arent there monopolies already been put in place because of the privatization? For example, there was a large scandal that occured with the CIBC bank where CEOs stole money from the company vault to account for personal needs, this was a factor that lead to the company going under. If such were to occur with lets say private health insurance, money would be lost, and you wouldnt get the medical attention you need
No, the monopolies are put in place because the government makes it much much harder to get into the health care business with a lot of restrictions and regulations. The health care providers actually pay to lobby politicians to do this to make a monopoly on that part of the economy, if the politicians remove those restrictions more people can get into the market and provide much more competition and lower prices with it.
well depending on the service, there should be a standard as to the quality of it. If there were no regulations, that would mean any sort of health insurance company would come along and claim to have "good" benefits, it leaves more room for a degraded service, because there is nothing forcing you to provide a proper service to people
Trust me those regulations don't raise the bar of quality. Competition forces you to provide better service. If you claim to have certain benefits that you don't someone could sue you for fraud. So those companies couldn't really do that. Plus there is always the word of mouth on services from other customers.
Thats sad, because they should. Otherwise its a waste of time having those regulations put in place.
If there were no restrictions, then business should be able to provide quality service based on competitiveness, but this doesnt actually happen in real practice, because its not just competition that drive business, theres also many other factors that contribute.
Well there are restrictions on what they can do, even without government regulations, because other laws still apply. It doesn't happen in real life because we have never had a business without government regulations or in other words a free market.
just one question, if they say it be better, to have a good health care, for american, that it be better for all, don't you think that the top people know think of that, i mean, they must not like a health care for everone, no ? just for few, so they are losing money ? maybe there is something else.
Yeah, it's called GREED! The private insurance companies in this country spend millions each year to keep politicians on their side of the issue. George W. Bush received almost $900,000 from the pharmaceutical company that wrote the Medicare Prescription Reform he passed while he was in office along with many other politicians who received hefty checks for their cooperation! Meanwhile, average Americans get screwed like always.
Capitalism is self destructing.... the greedy top of the economy made this happen. I know enough doctors to know that their incentives are all out of whack.
a divorce and new trophy wife is enough for an oncologist to produce a heap of false positives...
want to get rid of warts?... that dermatologist will see you 4 or 5 times before he rids you of the condition.... the perverse incentives of profit are destroying healthcare.
Do you think people who are rich work any harder than people who aren't?
Do you think the labor of people who aren't rich is of less value or that their work has no meaning, or that they don't contribute to the lives of others and the community?
I guess getting into a four year undergrad program, graduating top of your class, getting a great score on the MCAT, going through another 4 years of post-secondary doctoral training in THE most grueling medical educational system in the world, and then anywhere from 4 to 8 additional years of residency and fellowship, on top of that working > 100 hours per week constantly, with $200,00 debt in student loans take NO effort whatsoever. Med school Pathophysiology is so easy a monkey can do it.
the most common and honest answer you'll find is "both." Most people want to get into the field for the prestige, respect, and affluence as much as the prospect of helping people/saving lives. But even those most motivated by the latter will gain a whole new perspective during such an arduous journey of education. People are realistic. Medical education costs and drains you too much (money-wise, brain-wise, health-wise, emotion-wise).
Private health care worked very, very well until around 1960, when government started serious regulation. Since then it just went downhill to a degree where even socialized health care seems like a decent alternative.
Bring back the free market.
MigDanskeren 1 year ago
This just makes me laugh. People say that we are the wealthiest country, sure we are but when people see how this is going to put us in debt, they are going to wish we didnt do this. This is going to put us more debt by 1 trillion dollars! Obama said he was going to get us out of debt, ha bullshit.
slrich611 1 year ago
@slrich611
If everyone, including corporations paid their fair share, there wouldn't be a burden on the individuals. We are the wealthiest is a misnomer. 1% of the US population holds 99% of that wealth. The rest of us are just trying to pay off our mortgages before we die from lack of health care. How many people do you know, between 30-50 years old that own their homes?
analiasahotmail 1 year ago
you people are un-American, sorry you lot of socialists don't understand how we do things here, we choose to tie insurance to employment because WE WANT PRODUCTIVITY!!! Not lazy entitlement whores, we have far, far too many of those already! All of you and your anecdotal friends need to head straight to Europe!
Federalist306 2 years ago 4
Why don't these fucking assholes give the affordable health care to their neighbors if its so possible. Useless pigs. They are just wanting more things they don't deserve.
They ware cloths made by slaves.
They drive cars powered by war oil
They betray every American value with every action.
We are all going to pay dearly for creating such a disgusting empire out of this once noble American Enterprise.
We are all guilty as hell and know our hands are caught in the cookie jar. Justice is coming
BanjoNaps 2 years ago
Slavery has been long gone, we could are not at war for oil we have plenty in the US, and our now leftist government is what is betraying us. We should pay for a neighbor's healthcare, but let another neighbor live under opression. Thats the leftist logic
USAPatriot45 2 years ago
Really, you think china is a free country? Oh and bad news. Your a slave. Look at the money you use. Those are your chains. You can't live with out it. You were trained that way, because you have owners.
We have plenty of thick sour crude, that is extremely cost intensive to produce and refine. Its impossible to raise production rates in the US. Physically impossible. Water cut issues ALONE make it so.
digging the atlas shrugged man. !!!!!Get your liberty!!!!!
BanjoNaps 2 years ago
I never mentioned China, I am no slave, we have oil along with other energy sources, and I read Atlas Shrugged. I have my liberty and I will fight to keep it.
USAPatriot45 2 years ago
Yes you are.
BanjoNaps 2 years ago
What do you live off of? You're own money or someone else's?
shaokem 2 years ago
The war was not for oil... though spiteful Bush haters will tell you otherwise. Now, I'm not going to get into a political BS debate or who's dick is bigger. But I will say that the war was not for oil. If the war was for control of the oil we would have taken it a long time ago. We're still paying for our oil. The largest oil companies are still paying, and the Saudi's are happy to sell it. But give it 20 years, Dubai will crumble to the ground.
shaokem 2 years ago
I never thought the war was for oil but I was not going to get into that arguement with him at that point in time.
USAPatriot45 2 years ago
To the disbelief of many, the war be you for it or against it, (honestly I don't care which) Was a military strategy to gain ground in the middle east. And what better way to use 9/11 and our pain to support an invasion of Iraq as well as what was needed Afghanistan. I'm not saying going into Iraq was a bad move, it could have been handled differently of course. Having both Iraq and soon to have Afghanistan it will give our Government a larger stronghold on that region.
shaokem 2 years ago
If if keeps the world a bit safer then I'm for it. As for health care, we'll see if they fuck it up good come completely revolutionize it into something that works or something that later down the road can be fixed or patched to work. We'll see. But I personally believe having insurance should relate to you having a job, or have had one. But I can't speak for everyone... as I've always had a job.
shaokem 2 years ago
I'd rather pay for fundraisers and help people out of pocket than have the Federal Government do it.
Hey, I stumbled on an idea?
chewbaca1989 2 years ago
Let me state this so you can understand where im coming from. I was born in a communist country. My family experienced real socialism, where there would be lines of people waiting for a food voucher for some bread, potatoes, and milk. And thats all you had to work with for each day. I dont see how this is socialistic in anyway, as ive truly experienced it first hand in the most extreme form
Igneous01 2 years ago
First off no country in the history of man kind as ever achieved a communist state, only socialists calling themselves communists and saying they want a communist state. Second off I was born in the soviet union and lived in Moldova.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
thats great, i was born in poland, so i know the feeling as well, but about this health care reform, it doesnt even come close to it
Igneous01 2 years ago
Socialized health care is socialism, since it destroys that specific private sector of the economy, leaving it only for the extremely wealthy. Just because something doesn't follow all the tenets of socialism doesn't mean its not socialist.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
well then based on your perspective, i must be a socialist? Private Health "IS" only for those who can afford it, socialized health care, is for everyone
Igneous01 2 years ago
If you believe in forced wealth redistribution through government, and government take over of the private sector then yes, you are a socialist. Private health care is very affordable here and even if you are too poor to afford it people in the US can apply for government assistance and get it anyways.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
mhmm...... 100,000 dollars for heart surgery... very affordable indeed.
Im assuming your a high income earner, and this is why u feel bad about the reform. U dont want to give up some of your precious pay to someone who may need assistance.
Igneous01 2 years ago
I grew up in a very poor family and I am working my way up in life through med school. I'm in no way a high income earner, well not yet at least.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
so then why do you feel bad if someone else might be paying for your coverage in case something does happen? If you cant afford it now, then whats wrong with getting assistance? The reason why the system doesnt really work in the US, is because there are no laws or restrictions that protect you when you pay for this coverage. So paying for a surgery, and then being put on a 6 month waiting list, is absurd
Igneous01 2 years ago
Because stealing is wrong even when the government does it. I can afford health care now since I'm paying for it, and the extremely poor in my country that cant afford it can apply for government assistance. Forcing system down the throats of everyone wont be good for anyone. If your insurance covers the surgery they have to pay it or at least part of it depending on the insurance.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
I dont see it as stealing. We all pay taxes so that our country can sustain itself, it also goes towards spending on public services. If these services are denied, or being abused, then that would be considered as stealing and extortion
Igneous01 2 years ago
Well over taxation is basically legal theft from the government, since they are paying way more then they are receiving. That's why I think we should have a flat tax where everyone over the welfare line pays the same percentage in taxes.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
I agree with that as well. As long as there is some sort of responsibility from the government to spend on public services. I am perfectly fine with paying an understandable tax rate
Igneous01 2 years ago
I'm not arguing that the government doesn't need to spend on public services, but I'm for small government. When you have large governments you pay more in taxes and they are less productive, and history has shown that the larger a government is the less freedoms you have.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Yes exactly, Im all for a balance where the government has some stipulations in certain aspects of the marketplace where certain levels of spending are monitored, but also that the government is responsible with their spending and actions, and do not interfere directly with any form of business. We dont want prices to rise, but we dont want products to become exclusive to certain people.
What is really becoming a problem is CEOs that have been stealing money from the company for private things
Igneous01 2 years ago
Well CEOs are taking those funds from companies as bonuses even if the company cant afford them because the government has got the "too big to fail mentality", that if a company is too big they cant let it fail, which I find really stupid. If the government stop bailing out those corporations then those CEO's couldnt take those extra bonuses if their company was doing bad.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Yes, i dont agree with the bailout plans either... they are a complete waste of time and money, there is no guarantee that the money is even going towards the restructuring of the business.
But if there was no government assistance. Would the company not go under then?
Igneous01 2 years ago
If a company is destroying wealth they need to go under. A new and much more productive company will then take its place(or more then one company will take its place).
zetsway5000 2 years ago
yes, but if the country depends on business like these to sustain itself, companies going under would mean that the inflation rate would rise, and government debt would also rise. The country would have to pull back on certain public services and project spending since there wouldnt be enough income coming from the companies to supply these needs.
Its a very fine line that government and business have between each other, unless a government run by a business were established?
Igneous01 2 years ago
Not really, failing companies going bankrupt is healthy for the market place, if companies that destroy wealth go under other companies will quickly replace them. Inflation is when the government expands the currency or in other words prints more money.
Trust me, you don't want government run by business, because that's what we basically have now lol.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
lol That is pretty sad then. In Canada there are certain codes and regulations as to the workplace environment and the rights that certain people have when working. But the government doesnt interfere in the business of the market. We have universal health care that comes from more than one supply source, and that keeps the cost of health care down to a point. It isnt a bad system, but the lack of doctors makes it difficult to get a quick response for certain cases
Igneous01 2 years ago
The-right confuse wealth and profit.
Huge amounts of profit was made by USA corps recently, problem is no wealth was produced, much was taken overseas so the corps declared zero taxable income. (transfer pricing).
the right lie.
wealth is low crime, forsets, clean air, fish in the rivers, healthcare, education, balanced economy, sustainability,
If USA taxed the richest like Europe, every USA citizen would have $11,000 more!
Redneck fools defending the nastiest insurance corps; is a sick joke.
marsCubed 2 years ago
You're a complete idiot that has no idea how the market works, the extremely wealthy that own businesses don't pay taxes. If they are taxed more by the government they just pass down the costs to the consumer through higher prices, hurting everyone. Also, oppressive taxation is not only immoral, its legal theft through the government. learn what wealth is, because what you described isn't wealth. Racists such as yourself defending socialism is a sick joke.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
I am am anti racist and anti nazi, i put my skin on the line many a time.
The association between the right and the segregationists is very clear though. Also links to Arms and the Oil lobby.
Boss 'rights' and the worst corps is what you are defending, USA is most expensive with most unequal coverage,
Everywhere else works better!
The right have never in their history defended anyone's rights hahah.
The best you got is Alex Jones leading the anti war movement into obscurity.
redneck fools.
marsCubed 2 years ago
If you weren't racist you wouldn't use bigoted slurs like red neck. The link to the right and segregationist is clear? It was the democrats and the left that started the kkk and the white supremacist movement in America, so what you just said is an outright lie. I'm defending private property rights and business rights, you don't have a right to another mans wallet. (continued)
zetsway5000 2 years ago
(continued)
In the US we have the greatest quality of health care in the world, and the majority of Americans can afford it, and those who cant afford it have it provided by the government. Lol, no we have the best system, no other country has the level of quality that our health care has. Alex Jones is the best we have? Alex Jones is a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist joke.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
You do have the best healthcare in the world; in California
The rest of the USA is worse, the biggest single factor is how much money people have.
The insurance companies dump poorer people, they prefer rich patients.
The right suggest this is good and that only the rich should get service, others should die!
This is a far right policy, it is the worst corps dressed up with a clever sounding voice.
It is the evil corps and cheapskates.
Nicer corps WANT the nasty corps squeezed out.
Support Obama
marsCubed 2 years ago
No we have the best quality of health care overall, and we have it because its private industry. The insurance companies don't dump poorer people, I guess you don't know how insurance works, you don't pay upfront for the costs of the treatment. So you think any private industry is far right? What a joke. The only reason that we even have high prices for anything is because of government involvement like obamas doing. They distort the market and that raises prices.
zetsway5000 2 years ago 2
Consider it this way,
The Nazis ended welfare
They lowered or got rid of tax
They made Christianity compulsory in schools, they Brought up questions of people's nationality,
They said there was a Jewish banking conspiracy.
They got rid of Government preferring with corps property owners and other bigots.
They got rid of regulations allowing slavery.
German munitions even bore corp names.
The first thing they did when they got into power was kill socialists.
You have been badly fooled zestway.
marsCubed 2 years ago
Thanks for proving my point since the Nazis were far left wing, fascism is nationalist socialism. You just proved yourself wrong congratulations.
zetsway5000 2 years ago 2
The nazis were not left wing, that is ahistorical nonsesne.
Look up the 'reactionary' movement, or consider Mussolini stating that fascism was corporation rule.
look up 'corporate' state. or even 'fscist'
they are far right movements just like your own.
Calling themselves 'liberators' too.
It is no different to Hitler saying he 'liberated' Poland, which he invaded because he said they wanted Farben to pay tax.
Read a book other than far right flyers.
marsCubed 2 years ago
Hitler preached class warfare, agitating the working class to resist ``exploitation'' by capitalists, particularly Jewish capitalists, of course. Their program called for the nationalization of education, health care, transportation, and other major industries. They instituted and vigorously enforced a strict gun control regimen. (Continued)
zetsway5000 2 years ago
(continued)
They encouraged pornography, illegitimacy, and abortion, and they denounced Christians as right-wing fanatics. The Nazis were left wing, to say that they werent is to be uneducated.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Hitler followed the same game plan. He openly acknowledged that the Nazi party was ``socialist'' and that its enemies were the ``bourgeoisie'' and the ``plutocrats'' (the rich). Like Lenin and Stalin, Hitler eliminated trade unions, and replaced them with his own state-run labor organizations. Like Lenin and Stalin, Hitler hunted down and exterminated rival leftist factions (such as the Communists). Like Lenin and Stalin, Hitler waged unrelenting war against small business.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Hitler was the a bourgeois
He was all the small thugs who just wanted the system to work
to get rid of the weak clogging up the pavements and tax revenue.
It is exactly the same choice we have now.
Do we let the weak die and compete more and more fiercely killing markets and other nations for American Glory!!! for the strong breaking through the chaos!!!!
or do we plan and cooperate our way out. looking after each other with dignity.
The right are the morons.
they are the forces of stupid.
marsCubed 2 years ago
Did you just disregard everything else I've said? Hitler was a socialist, socialism is far left wing. Hitler was both economically left and socially left on the political scale. The weak dont die in the united states, we give more to charity then any other nation on earth. You Dont even have to work in the united states to make a living, you can go to a food bank, or soup kitchen and eat like a king. (continued)
zetsway5000 2 years ago
(continued)
In a socialist country if you did the same thing you would starve to death and even if you worked there was a chance you would starve to death. The only exception is with Hitlers regime because he stole wealth from other nations. The right is what gives the united states the standard of living we have today aka capitalism.
zetsway5000 2 years ago 3
Norway and Sweden have the highest taxes in the world as a result they have the wealthiest populations! in the world.
the Most equal, many Swedes have 2 homes, excellent health care and education.
Educated people are difficult to push around
They invested and as a result they are flexible and innovative. not perfect, but they put lie to your statements.
Investing in health is more choice.
dump the right, grow up and support President Obama. and genuine rights groups, not political corp stooges
marsCubed 2 years ago
Norway and Sweden use capitalism, they arent socialist, to be considered socialist you have to not have private property rights. Also, no they arent the wealthiest population in the world. They arent innovative either, what have they invented compared to the rest of the world? President obama is a bad joke. I could never support a closet socialist joke like him. Genuine rights lol? We have more rights in the US then in any country on earth. Norway doesn't even have freedom of speech.
zetsway5000 2 years ago 2
Hitler regarded capitalism as an evil scheme of the Jews and said so in speech after speech. Karl Marx believed likewise. In his essay, ``On the Jewish Question,'' Marx theorized that eliminating Judaism would strike a crippling blow to capitalist exploitation. Hitler put Marx's theory to work in the death camps.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Hitler appealed to the German people by claiming to be socialist, It is no different to the right today fooling idiots by calling itself 'libertatian'
The right are the old segragationists with a new gloss, it is the same old inequality and lack of democracy. it is do it because the boss said so.
that is not liberty, that is corp rule.
boss rule.
boss pays for the court building, boss pays for the local cop cars. boss on tv.
no democracy, secrecy.
wake up dude.
it is aka fascism.
marsCubed 2 years ago
Everything Hitler did was left wing, actually read what I type. Libertarianism is a right wing ideology because we believe in free markets and capitalism, no one said that it wasn't right wing. segregationists is a left wing ideology, it was propelled by the left wing in modern times. You need to learn what fascism is instead of baselessly using the word.
zetsway5000 2 years ago 4
This comment has received too many negative votes show
You live in a dream world zetsway
It is nothing but dogma, it is all you seem to know.
It is great IMO that the USA is going down the path of universal health coverage, this kind of thing is long overdue and is an inspiration to other states to cover their populations also.
A new era of cooperation and dignity is dawning, and a new way of Americans to feel proud of themselves as good ppl. as we do in the UK with our socialized healthcare,
Conversation terminated with you zetsway.
marsCubed 2 years ago
How do I live in a dream world? You're confusing me with yourself. You advocate a system based on theft and absence of absolute human rights. The US isn't going down the path of socialized medicine, because the vast majority of Americans don't want it, and the government knows this. (continued)
zetsway5000 2 years ago 3
Comment removed
zetsway5000 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
(continued)
You cant call forcing someone to do something behind the barrel of a gun cooperation and dignity. You can keep your failed system in the Uk and your police state where the government is allowed to install cameras into your home and monitor you 24/7.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
And what you are supporting isn't "corporate rule"? I don't get it, I see the right vs. left as being the same thing.
The big decisions are made for us and we are left to quibble about insignificant things, our lives.
chewbaca1989 2 years ago
@chewbaca1989 There is no left in the USA.
You have far right corp suckers vs centre right corp lovers
As you say, corps rule.
President Obama does represents a move in a progressive direction.
Nice capitalism, softening some of the bumps.
Evolvable.
Whether it gets anywhere is another story,
Japan's 10 yr slowdown, they even increased pensions, healthcare, unemployment slight, ppl did ok
it is actually a good slow crash, ppl can recover.
seems to be a plan.
marsCubed 2 years ago
You cannot say that because the Japanese do something it will work. Their culture is completly different. Work is the most important thing along with honor. Perfect example(real life) :A worker who does poorly will get his responsibilites taken away, still getting full pay, and this is bad for it is shameful and workers aviod this as best as possible. Over here you would have people begging for that.
USAPatriot45 2 years ago
From what I've seen Progresiviems has been a horrible mess, especially where they have a lot of influence.
Capitalism, no we don't have capitalism.
What you are talking about is Socialism, which I'm for at a State level, not at the Federal level.
We are not Japan, as much as I admire that society, no we won't be Ok. The Samurai will have to be abolished in our society to be more like Japan, that's not going to happen.
10 year slowdown going back to the 1990's? I don't get that statement.
chewbaca1989 2 years ago
those of you who fear socialsim lets not dick around, lets burn our medicare ,medicade and social securty cards. Lets not accept any workers comp,uneployment comp any kid of assistance from the goverment.
fred5399 2 years ago
F0reseer listed off everything it takes to be a doctor. He left off the enormous malpractice insurance doctors must carry to protect themselves from this sue happy society we live in. The only tort reform this bill offers is that you can't sue the gov't when their healthcare fails you!
griffinite21 2 years ago
I am for Universal Healthcare but I must agree with you on this aspect of the debate. Doctors do need to be protected by legislation from frivolous lawsuits! There are many aspects of Healthcare in this country that needs to be completely overhauled!
shellyk411 2 years ago
I like how you pick and choose which interviews to show to propel your socialist agenda.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
OOOOH! The evil socialists are coming to get you! Oh please, grow a brain and think for yourself!
shellyk411 2 years ago
I do think for myself, maybe you should grow a brain, and do research outside of your liberal think tank. The socialists are after my rights, and my money, obama being an example.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
zetsway5000 - There was no one present who was opposed to health care reform. If there were I surely would have interviewed them to illustrate what ever their perspective might be. What's yours by the way? Do you think the present health care system is working fine? I'd be glad to interview you if you're in the Pasadena area. Tell the world your great ideas.
RoanEpona 2 years ago
Did you honestly just say there is no one apposed to socialized health care? Please actually do some research on whos for and against this. Yes, the present health care system is working pretty good. We have the best health care in the world when it comes to quality. Can we make improvements to our current system to reduce costs? sure, its called getting government out of health care completely.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Do you honestly believe insurance companies have the right to make lots of money on people's health?
RoanEpona 2 years ago
That's like asking if insurance companies should be able to make money of peoples cars, of course since its their own money they are using. Its called private property. If there isn't any profit in something no one will bother to put any research toward it.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Yeah cos the imperial cancer research, british heart foundation and diabetes UK are scotch mist!
Actually wait thats exactly what they do!!!They are research charities!
If you want to talk profit imagine how productive a nation where everyone gets healthy will be.
kungfukats 2 years ago
At the cost of larger government and socialism? No thanks.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
See you're scared of ideology not reaity. You're scared of words....
Look at the facts bro.
as I've said before I'drather have my elected government looking after me than some greedy for profit corporation. At least I can change my govt.
kungfukats 2 years ago
The reality is socialism destroys the standard of living and large governments take away your rights. Socialized healthcare is just healthcare rationing by the government, even less people will be treated under it.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
No its not "socialised" Its healthcare provided by the governement. Thats not socialist. Its common sense. How can something that covers everyone treat less people than a system that only treats those who can afford it.You still get private healthcare if you want it. Or you get government healthcare.
kungfukats 2 years ago
Yes it is, stealing money from one group of people to pay for another is socialism. It doesn't cover everyone. This plan will ration healthcare based off of age and gender, and will force private market forces out of the market through socialism. Health care isn't that expensive here, and many jobs have employer provided health care, and if you cant afford health care and youre poor the government already gives you health care at the expense of the tax payer.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
not all business cover health care in the US
Igneous01 2 years ago
No you wont get private health care if you want, actually read the bill instead of talking out of your ass. if you lose your health insurance in any way, shape, or form you can not get another private plan if this bill passes. It forces people into government healthcare.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Your government already pays more per capita than any government for your healthcare which is then rationed by greedy insurance companys who couldn't care less if you live or die. They answer to no one. Your healthcare is already rationed. Stop being blinded by words and ideologies.
It doesn't destroy standards either countries with more govt involvement have higher standards of living than the US
kungfukats 2 years ago
We pay so much for healthcare because the government interferes with the private market, and in effect artificial y raises prices. They shouldnt have to answer to anyone because its their business. Learn what private property rights are. No one forces you to buy insurance you can always pay upfront. My healthcare isn't rationed, learn what you're talking about. They do not have a higher standard of living. Again, learn what the hell you're talking about.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
i doubt that.... I live in Canada and i dont feel limited to my healthcare coverage... i was treated for a broken arm, and many other occurances, even my family, if anything the downside is the long waiting line, but everything else is good
Igneous01 2 years ago
If you live in Canada and you like your health care that's fine. I'm not Canadian and I've experienced socialized medicine. I think it was complete crap as well as the other people I've talked to. The vast majority of people in the US don't want you failure socialized medicine that rations care.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
i dont see my medicine being rationed in any way... If anything we have laws that protect the people that use these medicines so that they dont become addicted to the substance or start selling it on a street market.
Igneous01 2 years ago
Just because you haven't doesn't mean other haven't, you don't represent the vast majority of people using your failed system. Again, do some research because the service in your system is extremely rationed and lacking specialists.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
If anything, the reason there would be lacking specialists, is because they feel there income of 80,000 or more is not good enough here, so they want to go to the US and practice there for 130,000 or more... I just want to point out Health Care is not a business nor a privatization, health is part of my well being, and i cant just start selling bodyparts on a private market
Igneous01 2 years ago
No health care is a business. The only thing that shouldn't be run unprivitised is the military and police. Socialized medicine runs on deficit spending.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Exactly my point, but it seems with insurance companies in the US, they can charge up the ass for their coverage. And if you heard the response Charles Boustany made, you would see that he wants to have "competition" for healthcare as a way to decrease the cost of coverage.. But that is complete BS
Igneous01 2 years ago
They can charge so much because our government distorts the market, if our government got out of health care they wouldnt charge as much, its the same thing with college. Before government got involved with health care less then 50 dollars could cover you for an entire year in the US. Government is in no way competition, they use other peoples money and they destroy wealth.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Explain to me how the interference of government in the market has made prices soar?
Igneous01 2 years ago
Government distorts market prices subsidizing goods. I'm not your teacher, go read up on Austrian economics.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
explain how the government "distorts"? see u havnt answered my question, i could just go and read up on some economics, but i want to hear from your viewpoint, how the government is making the scene worse
Igneous01 2 years ago
yes I did answer your question, if you knew anything about how the market works you would know what I said. Read up on supply and demand as well since you obviously dont know what you're talking about. When government subsidizes goods they become much more expensive.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
again.. u failed to answer it..... all your doing now is just trying to insult my intelligence... which is failing. I know how supply and demand works. The government is only there to "filter" the good and bad products, based on laws that common people put together. If you go back to the days of rockafeller, you would then see just how bad it was when the government didnt intervene with the marketplace. Thank god Unions exist today, because back then, breaking ur arm at work would be ur fault
Igneous01 2 years ago
No I didn't fail to answer it, in fact I've answered it twice, this being the third time.When government subsidizes goods they become much more expensive. Unions have made my country uncompetitive, they are in no way good.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
ok... so why dont u go to work at some construction firm, fall off a ladder, break your back, and then, go home without a job, without any coverage for medical attention, and no compensation. Well i guess your fucked then after that, arent you?>
Igneous01 2 years ago
If you have insurance it can cover it, and if you had savings like you're supposed to you could afford to leave work for a few weeks. The intentions of unions was good in the beginning, but nowadays they are nothing but political thugs, who bully people that arent in their unions, and destroy companies from the inside.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
SO what your saying is, if your making 50,000 or 100,000 a year, then your ok. You do realize we have more than one class of citizens in NA dont you? as far as i see it, Unions in Canada increase your payrate by 25 - 50 percent.. so someone working 12/hr would be making 19/hr if they join a union, plus benefits and insurance are covered.
Igneous01 2 years ago
Ya they increase your pay rate at the expense of the well being of the company, you wont even have a job if the company cant compete with other countries companies. Thats why we are losing so many jobs and why china is doing so well.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Well then tell me what you want.. You want to be making minimal pay, for the expense that you might keep your job longer, but what if your layed off, fired, or on a leave or serious injury? Business dont benefit my personal life or well being, and thats whats most imporant to me.
About China, well they manufacture all goods through sweat shops, so they hold all the keys when it comes to the economy of most westernized countries, since labour work doesnt exist in NA anymore
Igneous01 2 years ago
Seriously take a class in Austrian economics, they wont pay you minimum wage if you actually have some skills. If government got out of the market place your wages would actually increase. Of course businesses benefit from your life and well being. If you're dead you cant work, and it takes time to hire a skilled worker, and if your hurt you will be less efficient. They dont manufacture all their good from sweat shops lol.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Alot of products that are created in China are from labour shops where 5 - 13 year olds work for pennies a day to produce 100 dollar shoes over here in NA, now how is that a good trade off? I might as well go to China, buy the shoes for 13 cents, and comeback here
Igneous01 2 years ago
Its true that china does have sweat shops, but they are getting fewer and fewer in number and are being replaced with much more productive factories, with much older worker who produce much more. Children arent good workers and the chines are figuring this out.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Yes, but doesnt this spell disaster then for us living in the western world? I mean, if it takes 100 dollars worth of yen to produce nike shoes, we would have to pay 400 dollars or more for those shoes now? I thought u stated that competition and keeping things cheap was a good thing?
Igneous01 2 years ago
look at canada - the government runs the health care system, but i dont feel tied or forced into some form of extreme socialism. Making health care a business is wrong moral principles, and causes people to die because a few insurance companies want to make some money
Igneous01 2 years ago
I know people in Canada that tell me the health care system is over there is complete crap, and that they come to the US for specialists. They also told me that the waiting periods over there can be three months or longer for a specialist. Over here I can see a specialist in a few days if not sooner. Keep your morality out of government, its the same as adding religion to government. What you think is moral and what other people think is moral is completely different.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
THats too bad for them, neither me, nor my family, nor any one i know has experienced a waiting time of 3 months for a specialist... thats complete nonsense
the truth is the waiting times in the hospital can drag on for a long time, like 8 hrs, but thats about as bad as i see it getting.
Plus our taxes are 13% added on when buying products, its not that high for my standards, and i like the system the way it is
and plz... dont compare Obama to Stalin, thats just stupid logic
Igneous01 2 years ago
Its not complete nonsense when statics proves that it happens all the time. Again, do some research. Eight hours is as bad as it gets? Ok now i know you don't know what you're talking about. Where in my comment did I compare obama to Stalin? Obama is obviously a socialist but not as bad as Stalin was.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
... this is a waste of time responding too, I live here, i experience it real time here, as you never have, and u cant relate or accommodate to it. Ive seen both sides of health care, so i can say from my best judgement, Canadian system is better
Igneous01 2 years ago
I have also seen both systems in progress, if you read my comment you would know that I've experienced socialized medicine. You think its better because you probably have a small income and enjoy other people paying for you with other peoples money.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
You mentioned Socialized medicine, but you never stated that you experienced it. Unlike you, i do not assume things, i question them
Igneous01 2 years ago
Yes I did mention that I've experienced socialized medicine. Go read my comments instead of skimming through them.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
no u dont lololol u cant be serious, I live in Canada and i get coverage that some ppl would dream of having in US
please stop advocating propaganda that your health care system works, cuz it doesnt
Igneous01 2 years ago
Thats why they document that Canadians come to this country for our specialists in droves? You are joking right? Do some research instead of running your mouth. Our health care system works much better then yours, we have the best quality care in the world, thats a fact. When it comes to cost its another matter, but most people can afford it or have it provided by their employer here.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Please, by all means, link me to a video or press that actually describes this event your talking about. As far as ive heard i havnt seen anything along those lines here. I wouldnt be surprised if Americans drove across the border here to get some "actual" results with their sickness
Igneous01 2 years ago
Link to a video lol? You depend on videos for your research? How about you look up the statistics on Google and READ THEM.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Thats why im calling ur bluff, show me, link me to some of this crap ur trying to sell to change my opinion about a broken system that has no evidence that suggests its working
Igneous01 2 years ago
Its not a bluff you uneducated moron type it in Google and you will get over a million results claiming the same damn thing back by evidence. Are you that stupid and lazy not to type it into a search engine?
zetsway5000 2 years ago
How can i trust a website that "claims" that the Canadian system has failed?
I could do the same by typing in "Stalin the space martian" and get over a million hits with websites proving stalin was a martian,
u cant just assume these sites are authentic in their research, it might be biased, it might be false, it might just be a rant by some person
Igneous01 2 years ago
Running on deficit spending and providing mediocre service means the program has failed. Sites that provide actual studies arent false or biased. Numbers cant be biased.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
ofcourse numbers can be biased, by the person who put those numbers in, he could just add say another 10,000 to the count and say this is fact... completely ridiculous... numbers dont say anything to me, real peoples opinions and voices do, so far, i havnt seen much advocating for the current system
im assuming ur the last one to try and fight the "great" fight?
Igneous01 2 years ago
No numbers cant be biased especially when they are just recorded data based on facts, to say so you would have to throw out every study in existence. Real peoples opinions lol? asking your family what they think about health care isn't proper research. Again, look into Austrian economics.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Skimming through what i said... based on opinions of alot of people that ive talked to, no one is complaining about healthcare here, but jobs.
Igneous01 2 years ago
Your limited interviews of a few people on socialized health care< thousands of studies done with tens of thousands of people each on health care.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
statistics dont mean anything to me, there completely unreliable, a simple yes or no vote is not a very affective way of figuring out what people want. Taking the time to listen to someone for even a minute is much more accurate of a response..
And please. do care to show me these studies, the particular ones you viewed, it would greatly support your case here
Igneous01 2 years ago
In studies they don't just ask a single question, you keep proving to me that you don't actually do any research on this. I've viewed hundreds of studies on this subject, to memorize all the websites would be almost impossible. Again do a simmple google search and read some of their studies.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
why dont you just link me to atleast one that you viewed? Is that so hard? Stop wasting your time insulting my intelligence, and back up your own
Igneous01 2 years ago
I read literally view and read hundreds of websites a day on different subjects. Unless I write done the websites I don't remember them, and I don't write down websites because I read all the articles in a single session most of the time. Do you not know how to do research?
zetsway5000 2 years ago
No offense or anything... But you lost this one. You did a good job of keeping your ground, but you lost without any sort of facts. I wont lie, you may know more about this subject than I do, but that doesnt mean that everything you say is right for the well being of others.
The worst thing you can do is shun everyone who is not as intelligent as you on the subject because you feel they dont agree with your logic.
Igneous01 2 years ago
I don't think I've lost this one but that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I have used plenty of facts lol, but seriously check out a book on Austrian economics you will get a clear understanding of how government destroys wealth and makes everyone poorer.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
where are your facts? all youve done is used big words to cover your statement - saying things like "distorts" "subsidizes" is not really relevant to me, that could mean anything, its not specific in anyway to your argument. U havnt explained SPECIFICALLY how the government "distorts" or "subsidizes" goods and services
Igneous01 2 years ago
Almost all my comments have had facts in them, its your job to research those facts. Its very specific if you understand market terms. When the government subsidizes something are basically guaranteeing that that product will be bought, and companies see this, and they raise prices based on supply and demand. Thats how government distorts the market.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Thank you for now explaining it to me. For that i am grateful. But i dont see how this isnt somewhat the business fault for being irresponsible with their marketing
Igneous01 2 years ago
Well its not really the businesses fault, this is how the market works. When a lot of people buy a certain product of service a company will raise prices for that product of service, but when barely any people buy that product or service they will lower the costs.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
yes, when alot of people are buying. But if the business is being lead to believe it will sell because the government says so, that holds them accountable to their actions? I think the problem here lies with lack of knowledgeable CEOs and business owners.
Igneous01 2 years ago
Well the businesses arent responsible because its the government buying their product. If businesses didn't market based on supply and demand we would have supply shortages.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Perhaps then its not the health care reform that is an issue here, but the relationship between government and business? The government may be buying the product, but that doesnt translate how the business isn't responsible for how they market their product to sell in the first place. If anything, there should be a balence between the government buying the product, and the business supplying it, so that prices dont go skyrocketing through the roof
Igneous01 2 years ago
Now your starting to get it! That's exactly the issue here, the relationship between government and business, but you can call getting government out of business reform. That's the thing though, any government involvement with business will raise prices.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Yes, the question is how to solve it? If the goverment gets out of the market. It leaves more freedom for the business to adjust their prices. But it also leads to issues of "some people have it, some people dont" kind of thing, the business needs to act accordingly and responsibly on some sort of moral grounds, in order for the system to be working for the average person out there. I think the issue is that there is a gap in responsibility with these institutions, which is resulting in problems
Igneous01 2 years ago
Well I don't think its a gap in responsibility, its just how the market works. Government also creates artificial monopolies in the market place, because it makes some businesses harder to get into, leaving room for abuse.
(continued)
zetsway5000 2 years ago
(continued)
but if you get government out the only way a monopoly can occur is if a company provides such a good product at such a good price that no one else can compete, and if thats the case then that kind of monopoly isnt that bad, but I doubt that type of monopoly could actually happen.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
good point. But in terms of the health care business, arent there monopolies already been put in place because of the privatization? For example, there was a large scandal that occured with the CIBC bank where CEOs stole money from the company vault to account for personal needs, this was a factor that lead to the company going under. If such were to occur with lets say private health insurance, money would be lost, and you wouldnt get the medical attention you need
Igneous01 2 years ago
No, the monopolies are put in place because the government makes it much much harder to get into the health care business with a lot of restrictions and regulations. The health care providers actually pay to lobby politicians to do this to make a monopoly on that part of the economy, if the politicians remove those restrictions more people can get into the market and provide much more competition and lower prices with it.
(continued)
zetsway5000 2 years ago
well depending on the service, there should be a standard as to the quality of it. If there were no regulations, that would mean any sort of health insurance company would come along and claim to have "good" benefits, it leaves more room for a degraded service, because there is nothing forcing you to provide a proper service to people
Igneous01 2 years ago
Trust me those regulations don't raise the bar of quality. Competition forces you to provide better service. If you claim to have certain benefits that you don't someone could sue you for fraud. So those companies couldn't really do that. Plus there is always the word of mouth on services from other customers.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
Thats sad, because they should. Otherwise its a waste of time having those regulations put in place.
If there were no restrictions, then business should be able to provide quality service based on competitiveness, but this doesnt actually happen in real practice, because its not just competition that drive business, theres also many other factors that contribute.
Igneous01 2 years ago
Well there are restrictions on what they can do, even without government regulations, because other laws still apply. It doesn't happen in real life because we have never had a business without government regulations or in other words a free market.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
(continued)
Well In a free market those people stealing funds would go to prison for fraud, because they sold a service and then refused it.
zetsway5000 2 years ago
just one question, if they say it be better, to have a good health care, for american, that it be better for all, don't you think that the top people know think of that, i mean, they must not like a health care for everone, no ? just for few, so they are losing money ? maybe there is something else.
liamfeb27 2 years ago
Yeah, it's called GREED! The private insurance companies in this country spend millions each year to keep politicians on their side of the issue. George W. Bush received almost $900,000 from the pharmaceutical company that wrote the Medicare Prescription Reform he passed while he was in office along with many other politicians who received hefty checks for their cooperation! Meanwhile, average Americans get screwed like always.
shellyk411 2 years ago
Capitalism is self destructing.... the greedy top of the economy made this happen. I know enough doctors to know that their incentives are all out of whack.
a divorce and new trophy wife is enough for an oncologist to produce a heap of false positives...
want to get rid of warts?... that dermatologist will see you 4 or 5 times before he rids you of the condition.... the perverse incentives of profit are destroying healthcare.
gustafus21 2 years ago
it is not self destructing it is being destroyed by design so we can get under the New World Order agenda witch is a 1 world government
togsub 2 years ago
both my parents are doctors. dont insult their profession you scumbag.
RoyalDemonforChrist 2 years ago
I think the rich should pay for everything. It is our right to have everything paid for by somebody else!
jnowlin 2 years ago
Do you think people who are rich work any harder than people who aren't?
Do you think the labor of people who aren't rich is of less value or that their work has no meaning, or that they don't contribute to the lives of others and the community?
Mannyfrom 2 years ago 2
That's the capitalist myth. The rich don't get there by effort... but by their particular scam.
Lawyers, doctors, day traders -- they fleece the system and wonder why we complain.
gustafus21 2 years ago
I guess getting into a four year undergrad program, graduating top of your class, getting a great score on the MCAT, going through another 4 years of post-secondary doctoral training in THE most grueling medical educational system in the world, and then anywhere from 4 to 8 additional years of residency and fellowship, on top of that working > 100 hours per week constantly, with $200,00 debt in student loans take NO effort whatsoever. Med school Pathophysiology is so easy a monkey can do it.
F0reseer 2 years ago 2
i would never argue against your point, but: what is the driving factor behind that determination, the push for that detailed of an education?
is it money?
or is it a sence of "for the good of the people" ?
who do you think makes a better doctor?
wensdayswitch 2 years ago
the most common and honest answer you'll find is "both." Most people want to get into the field for the prestige, respect, and affluence as much as the prospect of helping people/saving lives. But even those most motivated by the latter will gain a whole new perspective during such an arduous journey of education. People are realistic. Medical education costs and drains you too much (money-wise, brain-wise, health-wise, emotion-wise).
F0reseer 2 years ago
Hopefully it is money. Open market transactions with the intention of financial gain is the only reliable, honest and fair way to reach an agreement.
wantwit 2 years ago