Who is this Spong guy anyhow? Is he on the radical fringe of the church? The stuff he is saying would be blasphemy in the Methodist church I used to go to. Maybe he is right, the bible is just metaphors and poetry. I'm becoming an athiest.
@naccrau even If there is good evidence that "Dr. X" is a good surgeon, you still have to trust/believe in "Dr. X" if you are going to put your life in his hands. (based on one of Craig's anecdotes)
I have no respect for liberal christians at all. I have more respect for an atheist than for people who call themselves christian yet don't believe in the resurrection, miracles, bible virgin birth etc etc.
The point Bishop Spong made about the gospel accounts being primarily written as liturgy was explained to me by an Eastern Orthodox priest. I think this makes alot of sense being that the majority of the oldest Christian churches are liturgical in worship
@blackoutninja I define a literalistic interpretation of the Bible, as a surface interpretation. There is a lot more going on in life, and in the Bible, then just what you find on the surface. Again, I say that you do not know Spong's heart, as no one knows anyone else's hearts. Thus we are all inadequate to judge what might be there. I find Spong's interpretation of Christianity to be far more authentic then any of the non-sense preachers you'll find on "Christian" t.v. and radio stations.
@blackoutninja I define a literalistic interpretation of the Bible, as a surface interpretation. There is a lot more going on in life, and in the Bible, then just what you find on the surface. Again, I say that you do not know Spong's heart, as no one knows anyone else's hearts. Thus we are all inadequate to judge what might be there. I find Spong's interpretation of Christianity to be far more authentic then any of the non-sense preachers you'll find on "Christian" t.v. and radio stations.
If the resurrection is not literal bringing to life a dead man never to die again then what might it be? I read Spong's book and until now I am still guessing what he really thinks about the resurrection. Does he mean Christ's body has rotten in the grave? But the tomb was found empty! Or Christ was risen from the dead spiritually? How could the disciples see a spiritual Christ? They can't! So how could they say he has risen from the dead. Non-literal resurrection means the disciples were liars.
@blackoutninja You doubt Spongs profession of his faith as a Christian? Why is that? Because he does not adhere to the dogma of a literalistic interpretation of the Bible? If people who do not adhere to a literalistic interpretation are not Christians, then you are saying that millions of people are not Christians. That seems to be a very egotistical judgement on your part. You do not know Spong's heart, and thus you are inadequate to judge whether he is truly Christian or not.
@Beausmithftl, one of the test of true chrisitanity is the belief in the bodily resurrection of christ. If he did not then the christian faith is vain.It is the KERYGMA (the main message of the church) of the christian church.
1) "Dogma of literalistic interpretation of the bible" I hate to break it to you my friend but there's no such thing. in fact there's no such thing as 'interpreting the bible', why not? because the bible is not one document or text, it is an amalgamation of many texts written over a period of time and for different reasons, some to be taken literally, and some not, thus you cannot talk about the bible as a whole being 'literal' or not, that's a far too sweeping statement
for the simple reason that he fails to fit the defenition of a christian:
I am Italian, I dont have any Italian ancestry, I dont know any Italians. I love Italian cuisine (I can’t cook it) And Ive begun to acquire a taste for red wine. I’ve never visited Italy but I’d love to. From what I’ve seen from Travel Channel programs they’re lifestyle is awesome. So I declare myself an Italian. I’m sure the Census Bureau and any Italians won’t mind
@Beausmithftl like I said, there is no such thing as a literalistic interpretation of the bible, so you're oversimplifying hugely. and what of these millions of people? how do you know what parts of the bible they do/don't interperet literally? I'm open to others' interpretations of certain parts of the bible as long as they are rational, honest and reasonable- spong's are not; he simply picks and chooses what he does and doesn't like and redefines Christianity according to his own agenda.
@Beausmithftl spong's heart is clearly not a christian one- his radical beliefs that blatantly contradict the bible make this clear, just read his wikipedia entry and marvel in awe at the level of redefining of christianity that takes place here- either that, or give me a rational explaination for how his beliefs are recconcilable to the bible, if you can, I'll eat my hat.
Spong, Oprah etc. are not Christians- no matter how much they want us to think they are. this is a matter of fact.
@brianhar100 Anybody see how this comment doesn't understand that there are historical records of a man who resurrected and that it's worth debating? Besides, atheist believes that dead matter brought forth life. I mean, you talk about rising from the dead!
@drcraigvideos If you are going to claim Historical records. Please tell me where i can find them,and don't say the bible. When did i say that anything came from dead matter? You really should not put words in peoples mouths.
@brianhar100 Then don't put words in mind or anybody else's. It's easy to find evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. Maybe if you actually listen to this debate that would be a good start.
@drcraigvideos So you yourself don't have any evidence? That would mean you yourself have no true opinion,and are only basing your beliefs based on what other people say. So i can understand why you fear the truth. Sorry i didn't mean to hurt your feelings,or should i say belief without evidence. I did listen to the whole debate because one of your fellow Christians asked me to,and i think he really wants me to stay a atheist . This was the dumbest argument i ever heard.
@brianhar100 Don't go soft on me now, brainhar100. I'm going to have to take you seriously, you know. Anyway, I'm just telling you to watch the debate so you can be lead by the evidence. It's not nice to dodge it, brian-poo.
@drcraigvideos I would not bother to argue with these Anti-theists. It is like banging your head against a brick wall. Thank you for your Christian belief.
@brianhar100 I can't see the irony, Brian! We've heard stranger, I suppose. I'm something of a theistic agnostic, so don't take me for some militant fundamentalist. XD
It seems a convenience to me to not believe any of the Bible to be literal. If none of it is literal, than one could interpret it to mean anything one wants. If nothing is literal, then there are really no truths and no constants, therefore each individual's "truth" is whatever they want it to be. Which would negate the need for the Bible in the first place. Such a belief is simply ridiculous, and sounds like a deception that a devil would propagate.
It appears Mr. Spong believes himself to be very wise by the standards of this age.
1 Corinthians 3:18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness” 20 and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”
For me, Bishop Spong has always had a strinking eloquence to him when he attempts to expound upon such a profound experience. Language indeed falls far short of being able to capture such a deeply transformative experience, but since our languages are our only tool of communicating one to another, there is much that is lost in translation. I've enjoyed many of Spong's books, and I very much appreciated this debate. Thank you for downloading it.
This is a bit immature but it cracks me up the way he (Spong) says 'sunder' for sunday, 'dudn't' for 'doesn't' and 'pleg' for 'plague'. I'm not American so not sure what this accent is.
While I admire, respect & commend the works of Mr. Sponge in the area of civil rights & social justice, it must be equally acknowledged that his teachings & interpretations of the Gospels& epistles are quite clearly flawed & misleading. Many traditional catholic, reformed, & protestant churches opposed segregation without adopting a theological position which undermines the Gospels (as Mr. Sponge does). See the works of NT Wright, Cone, CS Lewis, A Evans, Cone, C.Stanley, R.Zacarias & others
At the last supper, Jesus says to his disciples, I will not eat with you until I see you again in the Kingdom of heaven. What does he do? He eats grilled fish. As for heaven, we understand heaven as being where it is because we understand Jesus as a physical man who went into the sky. However Jesus describes heaven as being "within or amongst us". Christians simply do not understand what they are reading, which is frustrating for me personally.
@MrBiblicalscholar Just out of interest, can I clarify what you are saying - that Christ immediately ate after making this statement, thus he was already in the Kingdom of Heaven, ie. within and amonst us. Which gospel(s) are you referring to. Thanks.
@razorpayne13 Luke 24:41-43: 41.. he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43And he took it, and did eat before them.
@razorpayne13 sorry, what? I think you're confusing me with the youtuber who you were previosuly talking to- I just noticed that you were asking for a particular scripture and decided to give it to you.
Gosh Spong no-one cares how many seconds a day you wrestle with the Bible, or how many scholars with PHDs gained from increasingly liberal and theologically shoddy universities agree with you, if Paul is against you you know your fighting a lost cause.
"I am Italian. Now, as far as I know I do not have any Italian ancestry. Hell, I don’t even know any Italians. I love Italian cuisine. I can’t cook it – unless you count spaghetti and a jar of Ragu – but I love it. And I’ve begun to acquire a taste for red wine. I’ve never visited Italy but I’d love to. From what I’ve seen from Travel Channel programs they’re lifestyle is awesome. So I declare myself an Italian. I’m sure the Census Bureau and any fellow Italians won’t mind"
@Schneboll It is important because a world religion claims Jesus resurrected. Jesus as the son of God (not a philosopher) saved us from death and evil through his sacrifice and resurrection.
@FruKaos I get what the claim is. But why is it important and/or what is the meaning of being resurrected. It seems to want to convey that Jesus is above death. Though being resurrected seems highly contradictory to being killed for his recorded thoughts and ideas in the first place.
@Schneboll It not only establishes his authority as being who he said he was (God) but also that we too will be resurrected just like him because he lives.
@Schneboll oh, i see. in john 10:8, this is what Jesus says about his death,"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again." Jesus is as above death and the grave cannot hold him but he willingly died for a very specific reason. to receive the justice that is due for our sin and therefore be able to grant the mercy that isn't due to sinners. it's the doctrine of substitution. am i answering your question correctly?
@Schneboll oh, and about us being resurrected. i would agree with you that we shouldn't be resurrected as would the bible. but we will be and that fact can only be attributed towards what Jesus has done for us and is based purely on his grace (unmerited favor) towards us. that's why the gospel is such good news. not only does it have wonderful promises like this but God himself confirms it by filling the repentant believer with the Holy Spirit as a sort of experiential guarantee.
@BrandNewMouse I did not write we shouldn't be resurrected, merely that I as not sure why we should.
"God himself confirms it by filling the repentant believer with the Holy Spirit as a sort of experiential guarantee." What does that mean in reality? A good feeling?
@Schneboll The resurrection from the dead was important as death is the wage of sin, the resurrection shows that jesus has overcome sin and death, we too are raised because in Christ we too overcome sin and death. That is why Paul says "if Christ has not been raised then you are still in your sins" because it would show that sin was not overcome. 2nd Christ would have been a false Christ and thus still in our sins as our faith would have been wrongly placed
@Schneboll Oh. We'll be resurrected basically for God's pleasure. The culmination of human history is the wedding feast of the Lamb and the Church. About a good feeling; no, not precisely, but it does certainly sound that way, doesn't it? What I'm referring to here is what the Bible calls the baptism of the Holy Spirit or being born again. It's a radical on-going experience of knowing God personally / intimately that could also be measure objectively through the Bible.
@Schneboll For everyone who comes to know Christ in this fashion the argument is now over. He knows God personally, intimately, affectionately and the remarkable thing is that it's two ways. I know you haven't asked this but i feel the need to explain something: there's a reason many people who "come to Christ" don't know Christ. It's because of the message being preached. There is a false gospel that is prevalent in America that produces false converts left and right. It says to basically,
@Schneboll "Invite Jesus into your heart," or "Say this prayer, now repeat after me..." But this is no gospel at all. The Bible teaches that we need to repent and put our faith in Christ and then we will receive the Holy Spirit. Repent means to radically turn away from sin and towards God. An utter rejection and abandoning of your life for the new one Christ offers. That it's not an easy road, and will very much so be difficult. That we must deny ourselves and carry our cross to be fit for
@Schneboll His discipleship. The real gospel preaches a revolutionary turn from sin. It exonerates God for judging as fair and just and humbles man as an unqualified candidate for salvation. From this understanding does one come to Christ. My brother illustrates this story perfectly. He came to Christ falsely many years ago and then genuinely just recently. I'd love to share it with you if you'd like. It's relevant to the experiential on-going knowing of God that we're discussing.
@Schneboll Jesus was killed because he claimed to be the son of God which was about the worst you could do at that time. His resurrection proved him right and conquered death and became the last and ultimate sacrifice...
@FruKaos "claimed to be the son of God which was about the worst you could do at that time." Read just about any history book about this time of history, and you'll find that Jesus was hardly alone in his claims. But I guess you are explaining through Christian doctrine.
@Schneboll Jesus had a criminal trial before being put to death where he was charged with the following crimes: "And they began to accuse him, saying, "We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Christ, a king.", Luke 23:2 As you see, there are two or three criminal charges made against Jesus. But, regarding the charge of opposing paying taxes, there is considerable evidence this is the reason why Jesus was killed.
@FruKaos Evidence through the bible and nothing but the bible I must add. Most historians today view Jesus through an historical perspective where there is little, or no indication that the events described in the bible were based on actual events. But I digress, I do not know since I am not a biblical historian. I've only watched various documentaries where historians from different colleges more akin to the subject presents their findings and research.
@Schneboll you said ,,Most historians today view Jesus through an historical perspective where there is little, or no indication that the events described in the bible were based on actual events,, which is COMPELETELY false....i ll even say it in our own european term...foolish....retarded...and then you said ,, I do not know since I am not a biblical historian,, ...well...yes here you got it right....i can clearly see your only source of knowledge are documentaries,movies,you tube,internet...
@Schneboll ...etc...etc...but i think you are not educated enough to discuss abotut these things my friend,but may i just adress your statement ,,you'll find that Jesus was hardly alone in his claims.,, ...yes good sir you are right about this,there was alot of people that claimed they were messiah or something like that...matter of fact you even have one particular man mentioned in new testament that also claimed to be ,,something,, but after he was killed his ,,disciples,, separated.....
@Schneboll ..and he and his sect was forgotten......but one of the many things that separate Jesus from ,,all others,, is that his 12 major,70 minor disciples and thousands and thousands of Christ followers were tortured,persecued,martyred and finally brutally killed...slaughtered because of their claims...i wonder why there was not even one disciple,or student of disciples,or hundreds of sceptics that saw Christ after resurrection and became christians(and later martyrs for Christ) ...actually
@Schneboll ...said...wait...ok...Jesus newer resurrected,ok i lied(or something like that just to avoid persecution and torturing he had to go trough in that time)...its really extraordinary...especially sudden emergence of church where 3 000 people in jerusalem became christians in one single day.....
@Schneboll If the Resurrection never happened then Jesus is not who he said he was and therefore there is no reason to believe or take his words seriously
Who is this Spong guy anyhow? Is he on the radical fringe of the church? The stuff he is saying would be blasphemy in the Methodist church I used to go to. Maybe he is right, the bible is just metaphors and poetry. I'm becoming an athiest.
todtubetod 1 month ago
If this is all true, then my is belief a requirement
naccrau 2 months ago
@naccrau even If there is good evidence that "Dr. X" is a good surgeon, you still have to trust/believe in "Dr. X" if you are going to put your life in his hands. (based on one of Craig's anecdotes)
joel230182 1 week ago
The BIG question is..:
With SO MANY errors and contradictions in the Bible..
how can you trust anything it says???
sfyr 2 months ago
@sfyr Well, you have to drop the "New Atheist Version" of the Bible for of all. Second of all, please, comment on the topic of the video. That helps.
drcraigvideos 2 months ago 2
@drcraigvideos hahaha good answer!
me25422 2 months ago
@sfyr Not a difficult question to answer, but not the topic of the video.
empreme 2 months ago
I have no respect for liberal christians at all. I have more respect for an atheist than for people who call themselves christian yet don't believe in the resurrection, miracles, bible virgin birth etc etc.
KingDcome11 3 months ago
@KingDcome11 Couldn't agree more.
NilDesperandum777 3 months ago
if he is a bishop then how the hell can he not believe in the bible?
Falcondick69 4 months ago
i dont think so the bishop has any real faith
mariyababu 4 months ago
the Quran( the book of islam) has no contradiction or myth , read it
ogilby5 4 months ago
@ogilby5 the koran is complete myth and full of contradiction
bestinfadel 4 months ago
I believe in the resurrection of Christ what kind of Christian doesn`t but he who is miss guided .
1 Corinthians 15:14
And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
FeignofCordor 5 months ago
The point Bishop Spong made about the gospel accounts being primarily written as liturgy was explained to me by an Eastern Orthodox priest. I think this makes alot of sense being that the majority of the oldest Christian churches are liturgical in worship
greglee20 5 months ago
@blackoutninja I define a literalistic interpretation of the Bible, as a surface interpretation. There is a lot more going on in life, and in the Bible, then just what you find on the surface. Again, I say that you do not know Spong's heart, as no one knows anyone else's hearts. Thus we are all inadequate to judge what might be there. I find Spong's interpretation of Christianity to be far more authentic then any of the non-sense preachers you'll find on "Christian" t.v. and radio stations.
Beausmithftl 5 months ago
@blackoutninja I define a literalistic interpretation of the Bible, as a surface interpretation. There is a lot more going on in life, and in the Bible, then just what you find on the surface. Again, I say that you do not know Spong's heart, as no one knows anyone else's hearts. Thus we are all inadequate to judge what might be there. I find Spong's interpretation of Christianity to be far more authentic then any of the non-sense preachers you'll find on "Christian" t.v. and radio stations.
Beausmithftl 5 months ago
If the resurrection is not literal bringing to life a dead man never to die again then what might it be? I read Spong's book and until now I am still guessing what he really thinks about the resurrection. Does he mean Christ's body has rotten in the grave? But the tomb was found empty! Or Christ was risen from the dead spiritually? How could the disciples see a spiritual Christ? They can't! So how could they say he has risen from the dead. Non-literal resurrection means the disciples were liars.
csdr0 6 months ago
@blackoutninja You doubt Spongs profession of his faith as a Christian? Why is that? Because he does not adhere to the dogma of a literalistic interpretation of the Bible? If people who do not adhere to a literalistic interpretation are not Christians, then you are saying that millions of people are not Christians. That seems to be a very egotistical judgement on your part. You do not know Spong's heart, and thus you are inadequate to judge whether he is truly Christian or not.
Beausmithftl 6 months ago
@Beausmithftl, one of the test of true chrisitanity is the belief in the bodily resurrection of christ. If he did not then the christian faith is vain.It is the KERYGMA (the main message of the church) of the christian church.
csdr0 6 months ago
@Beausmithftl an ignorant, judgemental, over-simplified, and generalising comment you just made there:
blackoutninja 6 months ago
1) "Dogma of literalistic interpretation of the bible" I hate to break it to you my friend but there's no such thing. in fact there's no such thing as 'interpreting the bible', why not? because the bible is not one document or text, it is an amalgamation of many texts written over a period of time and for different reasons, some to be taken literally, and some not, thus you cannot talk about the bible as a whole being 'literal' or not, that's a far too sweeping statement
more to come
blackoutninja 6 months ago
@Beausmithftl 'why is that'
for the simple reason that he fails to fit the defenition of a christian:
I am Italian, I dont have any Italian ancestry, I dont know any Italians. I love Italian cuisine (I can’t cook it) And Ive begun to acquire a taste for red wine. I’ve never visited Italy but I’d love to. From what I’ve seen from Travel Channel programs they’re lifestyle is awesome. So I declare myself an Italian. I’m sure the Census Bureau and any Italians won’t mind
sound familiar?
blackoutninja 6 months ago
@Beausmithftl like I said, there is no such thing as a literalistic interpretation of the bible, so you're oversimplifying hugely. and what of these millions of people? how do you know what parts of the bible they do/don't interperet literally? I'm open to others' interpretations of certain parts of the bible as long as they are rational, honest and reasonable- spong's are not; he simply picks and chooses what he does and doesn't like and redefines Christianity according to his own agenda.
blackoutninja 6 months ago
@Beausmithftl spong's heart is clearly not a christian one- his radical beliefs that blatantly contradict the bible make this clear, just read his wikipedia entry and marvel in awe at the level of redefining of christianity that takes place here- either that, or give me a rational explaination for how his beliefs are recconcilable to the bible, if you can, I'll eat my hat.
Spong, Oprah etc. are not Christians- no matter how much they want us to think they are. this is a matter of fact.
blackoutninja 6 months ago
@Beausmithftl also one other thing, how exactly do you define a 'literalistic interpretation of the bible'?
blackoutninja 5 months ago
Nobody here sees anything wrong with 2 educated men arguing if a man rose from the dead?
brianhar100 6 months ago 7
@brianhar100 Anybody see how this comment doesn't understand that there are historical records of a man who resurrected and that it's worth debating? Besides, atheist believes that dead matter brought forth life. I mean, you talk about rising from the dead!
drcraigvideos 6 months ago 12
@drcraigvideos If you are going to claim Historical records. Please tell me where i can find them,and don't say the bible. When did i say that anything came from dead matter? You really should not put words in peoples mouths.
brianhar100 6 months ago 3
@brianhar100 Then don't put words in mind or anybody else's. It's easy to find evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. Maybe if you actually listen to this debate that would be a good start.
drcraigvideos 6 months ago
@drcraigvideos So you yourself don't have any evidence? That would mean you yourself have no true opinion,and are only basing your beliefs based on what other people say. So i can understand why you fear the truth. Sorry i didn't mean to hurt your feelings,or should i say belief without evidence. I did listen to the whole debate because one of your fellow Christians asked me to,and i think he really wants me to stay a atheist . This was the dumbest argument i ever heard.
brianhar100 6 months ago
@brianhar100 Don't go soft on me now, brainhar100. I'm going to have to take you seriously, you know. Anyway, I'm just telling you to watch the debate so you can be lead by the evidence. It's not nice to dodge it, brian-poo.
drcraigvideos 6 months ago
@drcraigvideos I would not bother to argue with these Anti-theists. It is like banging your head against a brick wall. Thank you for your Christian belief.
lukose2007 2 months ago
@brianhar100 I can't see the irony, Brian! We've heard stranger, I suppose. I'm something of a theistic agnostic, so don't take me for some militant fundamentalist. XD
Altaront 4 months ago
It seems a convenience to me to not believe any of the Bible to be literal. If none of it is literal, than one could interpret it to mean anything one wants. If nothing is literal, then there are really no truths and no constants, therefore each individual's "truth" is whatever they want it to be. Which would negate the need for the Bible in the first place. Such a belief is simply ridiculous, and sounds like a deception that a devil would propagate.
4SmallGov 7 months ago
It appears Mr. Spong believes himself to be very wise by the standards of this age.
1 Corinthians 3:18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness” 20 and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”
4SmallGov 7 months ago
0:25:23
no.. you're really not
blackoutninja 7 months ago 2
"strinking" was meant to be 'striking'. Sorry about that.
Beausmithftl 7 months ago
For me, Bishop Spong has always had a strinking eloquence to him when he attempts to expound upon such a profound experience. Language indeed falls far short of being able to capture such a deeply transformative experience, but since our languages are our only tool of communicating one to another, there is much that is lost in translation. I've enjoyed many of Spong's books, and I very much appreciated this debate. Thank you for downloading it.
Beausmithftl 7 months ago 2
This is a bit immature but it cracks me up the way he (Spong) says 'sunder' for sunday, 'dudn't' for 'doesn't' and 'pleg' for 'plague'. I'm not American so not sure what this accent is.
whyteay 7 months ago
Craig makes me run from Christianity, thank God Spong is there to keep me in it.
georgeamolochitis 8 months ago
While I admire, respect & commend the works of Mr. Sponge in the area of civil rights & social justice, it must be equally acknowledged that his teachings & interpretations of the Gospels& epistles are quite clearly flawed & misleading. Many traditional catholic, reformed, & protestant churches opposed segregation without adopting a theological position which undermines the Gospels (as Mr. Sponge does). See the works of NT Wright, Cone, CS Lewis, A Evans, Cone, C.Stanley, R.Zacarias & others
shieldsff 8 months ago
At the last supper, Jesus says to his disciples, I will not eat with you until I see you again in the Kingdom of heaven. What does he do? He eats grilled fish. As for heaven, we understand heaven as being where it is because we understand Jesus as a physical man who went into the sky. However Jesus describes heaven as being "within or amongst us". Christians simply do not understand what they are reading, which is frustrating for me personally.
MrBiblicalscholar 10 months ago
@MrBiblicalscholar Just out of interest, can I clarify what you are saying - that Christ immediately ate after making this statement, thus he was already in the Kingdom of Heaven, ie. within and amonst us. Which gospel(s) are you referring to. Thanks.
whyteay 7 months ago
@MrBiblicalscholar Give me the scripture where he ate fish with his diciples....
razorpayne13 7 months ago
@razorpayne13 Luke 24:41-43: 41.. he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43And he took it, and did eat before them.
blackoutninja 7 months ago
@blackoutninja But why does this bother u that he ate with his disciples? what do you think the context was?
razorpayne13 7 months ago
@razorpayne13 sorry, what? I think you're confusing me with the youtuber who you were previosuly talking to- I just noticed that you were asking for a particular scripture and decided to give it to you.
sorry to butt in
blackoutninja 7 months ago
@blackoutninja im sorry..my bad..
razorpayne13 7 months ago
@razorpayne13 no worries :)
God bless you
blackoutninja 6 months ago
Gosh Spong no-one cares how many seconds a day you wrestle with the Bible, or how many scholars with PHDs gained from increasingly liberal and theologically shoddy universities agree with you, if Paul is against you you know your fighting a lost cause.
GoldenbanjoDJ 10 months ago
when was this debate?
lightbrownpoop 10 months ago
John Shelby Spong should call himself a luciferian or something and not a Christian. Such hypocrisy.
baxteru 10 months ago
In which universe can you consider yourself a Christian and not believe that Jesus was raised from the dead?
TheSeanWilson 10 months ago 26
@TheSeanWilson Well, according to multi-verse theory....
Sephentheptotomartyr 10 months ago
@Sephentheptotomartyr Nice :)
TheSeanWilson 10 months ago
@TheSeanWilson In the real universe!
kixmet 9 months ago 2
@TheSeanWilson Fantastically well said:
blackoutninja 7 months ago
"I am Italian. Now, as far as I know I do not have any Italian ancestry. Hell, I don’t even know any Italians. I love Italian cuisine. I can’t cook it – unless you count spaghetti and a jar of Ragu – but I love it. And I’ve begun to acquire a taste for red wine. I’ve never visited Italy but I’d love to. From what I’ve seen from Travel Channel programs they’re lifestyle is awesome. So I declare myself an Italian. I’m sure the Census Bureau and any fellow Italians won’t mind"
sound familiar?
blackoutninja 7 months ago 3
@TheSeanWilson A universe of minds filled with untenable lunacies. This universe.
TheFunkyTheist 4 months ago
"discuss and debate whether the resurrection was a real, physical event."
I don't get it why this is important. Even if the ancient philosophers where not real, it's their recorded thoughts and ideas that count.
Schneboll 10 months ago
@Schneboll It is important because a world religion claims Jesus resurrected. Jesus as the son of God (not a philosopher) saved us from death and evil through his sacrifice and resurrection.
FruKaos 10 months ago
@FruKaos I get what the claim is. But why is it important and/or what is the meaning of being resurrected. It seems to want to convey that Jesus is above death. Though being resurrected seems highly contradictory to being killed for his recorded thoughts and ideas in the first place.
Schneboll 10 months ago
@Schneboll It not only establishes his authority as being who he said he was (God) but also that we too will be resurrected just like him because he lives.
BrandNewMouse 10 months ago
@BrandNewMouse My suspicion was to establish Jesus was above death. Though I'm not sure why the rest of us should be resurrected.
Schneboll 10 months ago
@Schneboll oh, i see. in john 10:8, this is what Jesus says about his death,"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again." Jesus is as above death and the grave cannot hold him but he willingly died for a very specific reason. to receive the justice that is due for our sin and therefore be able to grant the mercy that isn't due to sinners. it's the doctrine of substitution. am i answering your question correctly?
BrandNewMouse 10 months ago
@Schneboll oh, and about us being resurrected. i would agree with you that we shouldn't be resurrected as would the bible. but we will be and that fact can only be attributed towards what Jesus has done for us and is based purely on his grace (unmerited favor) towards us. that's why the gospel is such good news. not only does it have wonderful promises like this but God himself confirms it by filling the repentant believer with the Holy Spirit as a sort of experiential guarantee.
BrandNewMouse 10 months ago
@BrandNewMouse I did not write we shouldn't be resurrected, merely that I as not sure why we should.
"God himself confirms it by filling the repentant believer with the Holy Spirit as a sort of experiential guarantee." What does that mean in reality? A good feeling?
Schneboll 10 months ago
@Schneboll The resurrection from the dead was important as death is the wage of sin, the resurrection shows that jesus has overcome sin and death, we too are raised because in Christ we too overcome sin and death. That is why Paul says "if Christ has not been raised then you are still in your sins" because it would show that sin was not overcome. 2nd Christ would have been a false Christ and thus still in our sins as our faith would have been wrongly placed
stephjh2006 10 months ago
@Schneboll Oh. We'll be resurrected basically for God's pleasure. The culmination of human history is the wedding feast of the Lamb and the Church. About a good feeling; no, not precisely, but it does certainly sound that way, doesn't it? What I'm referring to here is what the Bible calls the baptism of the Holy Spirit or being born again. It's a radical on-going experience of knowing God personally / intimately that could also be measure objectively through the Bible.
BrandNewMouse 10 months ago
@Schneboll For everyone who comes to know Christ in this fashion the argument is now over. He knows God personally, intimately, affectionately and the remarkable thing is that it's two ways. I know you haven't asked this but i feel the need to explain something: there's a reason many people who "come to Christ" don't know Christ. It's because of the message being preached. There is a false gospel that is prevalent in America that produces false converts left and right. It says to basically,
BrandNewMouse 10 months ago
@Schneboll "Invite Jesus into your heart," or "Say this prayer, now repeat after me..." But this is no gospel at all. The Bible teaches that we need to repent and put our faith in Christ and then we will receive the Holy Spirit. Repent means to radically turn away from sin and towards God. An utter rejection and abandoning of your life for the new one Christ offers. That it's not an easy road, and will very much so be difficult. That we must deny ourselves and carry our cross to be fit for
BrandNewMouse 10 months ago
@BrandNewMouse Wow that's a mouthful.
Schneboll 10 months ago
@Schneboll His discipleship. The real gospel preaches a revolutionary turn from sin. It exonerates God for judging as fair and just and humbles man as an unqualified candidate for salvation. From this understanding does one come to Christ. My brother illustrates this story perfectly. He came to Christ falsely many years ago and then genuinely just recently. I'd love to share it with you if you'd like. It's relevant to the experiential on-going knowing of God that we're discussing.
BrandNewMouse 10 months ago
@Schneboll Jesus was killed because he claimed to be the son of God which was about the worst you could do at that time. His resurrection proved him right and conquered death and became the last and ultimate sacrifice...
FruKaos 10 months ago
@FruKaos "claimed to be the son of God which was about the worst you could do at that time." Read just about any history book about this time of history, and you'll find that Jesus was hardly alone in his claims. But I guess you are explaining through Christian doctrine.
Schneboll 10 months ago
@Schneboll Jesus had a criminal trial before being put to death where he was charged with the following crimes: "And they began to accuse him, saying, "We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Christ, a king.", Luke 23:2 As you see, there are two or three criminal charges made against Jesus. But, regarding the charge of opposing paying taxes, there is considerable evidence this is the reason why Jesus was killed.
FruKaos 10 months ago
@FruKaos Evidence through the bible and nothing but the bible I must add. Most historians today view Jesus through an historical perspective where there is little, or no indication that the events described in the bible were based on actual events. But I digress, I do not know since I am not a biblical historian. I've only watched various documentaries where historians from different colleges more akin to the subject presents their findings and research.
Schneboll 10 months ago
@Schneboll you said ,,Most historians today view Jesus through an historical perspective where there is little, or no indication that the events described in the bible were based on actual events,, which is COMPELETELY false....i ll even say it in our own european term...foolish....retarded...and then you said ,, I do not know since I am not a biblical historian,, ...well...yes here you got it right....i can clearly see your only source of knowledge are documentaries,movies,you tube,internet...
giska1000 10 months ago
@giska1000 Please send me your text via YT mail, because if you don't I'm not going to read nor reply anything further to you.
Schneboll 10 months ago
@Schneboll ...etc...etc...but i think you are not educated enough to discuss abotut these things my friend,but may i just adress your statement ,,you'll find that Jesus was hardly alone in his claims.,, ...yes good sir you are right about this,there was alot of people that claimed they were messiah or something like that...matter of fact you even have one particular man mentioned in new testament that also claimed to be ,,something,, but after he was killed his ,,disciples,, separated.....
giska1000 10 months ago
@giska1000 indeed, they went back to their jobs. In fact the only people who followed Jesus to the cross were women?
MrBiblicalscholar 10 months ago
@Schneboll ..and he and his sect was forgotten......but one of the many things that separate Jesus from ,,all others,, is that his 12 major,70 minor disciples and thousands and thousands of Christ followers were tortured,persecued,martyred and finally brutally killed...slaughtered because of their claims...i wonder why there was not even one disciple,or student of disciples,or hundreds of sceptics that saw Christ after resurrection and became christians(and later martyrs for Christ) ...actually
giska1000 10 months ago
@Schneboll ...said...wait...ok...Jesus newer resurrected,ok i lied(or something like that just to avoid persecution and torturing he had to go trough in that time)...its really extraordinary...especially sudden emergence of church where 3 000 people in jerusalem became christians in one single day.....
giska1000 10 months ago
@FruKaos Read your bible again. He was killed because he claimed to be the King of the Jews, which he did not.
MrBiblicalscholar 10 months ago
@Schneboll If the Resurrection never happened then Jesus is not who he said he was and therefore there is no reason to believe or take his words seriously
KingDcome11 3 months ago
I'm sorry for the immaturity, but 28:30-28:36 had me LOLing so hard.
LegendarySkyKing 10 months ago 14