Philosophy of Time: A Reply (Part 1)

[unhealthytruthseeker]

If time isn't real at all, how does he account for all of the effects of general and special relativity? What is his alternative which still produces the same effects but assumes the non-reality of time?

[Naiant]

The syllogism is invalid. It does not say A = B, B = C, thefore A = C. It says A = B, C = D, therefore A = D.

[Naiant]

The discussion of time and causality is out of my depth, but I think there is a more basic failure to Kalam. In the first premise, that everything that comes into being had a beginning, "comes into being" means something different that it does in the second premise, "the universe came into being." In the first , it means "was assembled out of pre-existing pieces," whereas in the second it means "appeared out of nothing." The conclusion is smuggled in by the second premise. (cont.)

[BlueNote4003]

It's About Time (Part 2)?

[LapisLong]

The problem with Kalaam, as I see it, is that its premise is flawed in that it begs the question. It is asserted that something is uncaused (Universe, God, etc.)

[albatross1977]

Where's part 2? I can't find it.

[MattheusDaniel]

What I'm getting at below is that there cannot be "no event" and then "an event" as you seem to propose as a possibility. There is only infinite change and it is happening nowhere else in "time" but in this infinite moment right now.

[MattheusDaniel]

The "beginning" of the known Universes' physical layout and movement away from the proposed point of the Big Bang is not the beginning of all that has ever been. No event happens without it arising in dependence on what has been prior to it and what is happening together with it in a conditioning and interdependent manner. Energy cannot be made or destroyed. It has always been and will always be regardless of its form and direction. No real beginning or end of reality as such is possible.

[gigi4123]

Very good video.

[justwayayayitaminute]

i love your hair! NEVER CUT IT :D

great vid too 5/5

[WhirlingWolves]

I just noticed something.

Tooltime9901 looks like Legolas but with big nostrils and brown hair.

Hey tooltime for halloween you should make a vid dressed up as Legolas and shoot a bow and arrow for the camera!

Perhaps while shouting "FOR RIVENDELL!" or even better shout out your kill count each time you fire off an arrow. LOL!

I'm just kidding around. But seriously that would be hilarious.

[dorkydevil]

thank you so much for taking the time to make these videos

[Bigbossjin]

Its funny I am a creationist but I agree with atheist logic more.

I guess maltheist and atheist are in the same boat.

[GrassEating]

Interesting, I understand your point: " That if the universe existed at time 0, then it did not came into existence at any point of time."- But before time, they can reply and then you have them.

As this is math and physics, I think you must try to oversimplify everything in order to make the creationist to understand.

I also think people can understand that a length dimension can be "infinite". And there is no differences between a length dimension and a time dimension.

[Metatheist]

BOOOOOOOOOORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Redfingers]

OMG! YOUR TITLE IS SO PUNNY!

BAW HAW HAW

[funincluded]

The ad in the upper left corner presents some of the weakest and most ridiculous 'reasons' to believe in a god

[sidelingscroll]

Another great video by tooltime9901. But the Kalam is simpler to refute:

Does premise one's everything include or not universes. If you say "everything, including universes had a cause" then it's begging the question. If you say "everything, excluding universes, has a cause" it's a non-sequitor.

Kalam is dead x.x rest in peace.

[billymatronics]

doesn't this argument also self refute god... if Migs argument is saying nothing is infinite including time then therefore god must have a time zero... therefore god started to exist thus god must have had a cause... therefore god of the bible is not the lord, something else must be? (or am I missing a trick)

not only this.. it doesnt even begin to touch on which of the potentail gods has any more evidence than the next to be the 'truth'

[dar13y]

lol?

[hawkmore]

._.

i am fucking confused...rofl

[Broan13]

A measurement of change? With respect to what?

[AnonymousDiv0]

I like the theory of time that allows for a time-travelling DeLorean. Or, preferably, a dimensionally transcendental time-travelling blue police box.

But if I lived in a dream world, I wouldn't be much different from a theist.

[Drynae]

In my opinion, time does not exist. However, it's like how we view the horizon as being flat, while the entire earth is round.

I have this feeling that the universe expands and collapses and everything within that 'spacebubble', time exists where matter and energy are within.

The time we measure is only practical for us, as we're in a fixed position in time and space. Setting aside the sun and rotations of our planets.

Wether the universe is infinite or not, I think we'l never know for sure.

[TheFifthApes]

Gravity = curvature of space-time. How do you explain gravity if time doesn't exist?

[Drynae]

It was a mistype, I meant, time does exist. Hehe.

[1GOD1JESUS]

are you a brainiac or something? your amazing

[darthrevan6]

This vid gave me a nose-bleed lol.

[johnmonk66]

why do people assume the big bang, the beginning of our universe is also the beginning of time? this is why simple minded catholics think this way, they say the universe must have come from somewhere, but they say it came from god, and he is infinite, lol

\i believe in an eternal universe because the universe is real and we can prove it, i will never believe in an invisible man creating it, and us

[krishields]

An assumption of time being a change in the state of the universe at point A to point B, in and of itself assumes the universe has always existed, and therefore exists a time outside of existence.

The only way I have been able to get around it is to assume a moment by moment existence - where at every moment the universe is created by the destruction of the previous state of the universe, whereby providing a cause for an infinitely existing universe.

[songcovers]

Yes .. time does not exist..

Take a walk 2 mile walk down main street..

Was it really 2 mile walk... Depends if your talking to someone who speaks english

Did the walk really take you half an hour?

Depends who you ask..

Time only exists in the context in which humans use it..

Other than that.. I would say time is just a human representation of change

[krishields]

Brought on by the ability to memorize previous states of the universe ( the past )....without that, there's nothing.

[jcage]

look at this neckbearded faggot sperg out over atheism and shit. you're lame as shit

[DisforDubby]

The Universe could be the result of a much greater event which resides in a different dimension/scope/reality. All the properties we have studied in science may mean very little on this much greater scale.

[OurTVproductions]

How did you upload a video that is longer than 10:00 minutes long? When ever I do that, even if it is only a single minute over, it gets rejected! urks the hel out of me.

As for the discussion, I guess I agree with both of you... probably more so yourself (the creator of this video).

I tend to view the universe much like Einstein, as out-dated as some may argue that perspective is. Einstein, to me, had more of a mystic dance and philophical drive STRAIGHT towards universal subjective truth

[Smithjade87]

I love you ★★★★★!

[AppliedMathematician]

Wait!

They do what? (Ab-)use Hilberts hotel to assert that actual infinites can not exist? But that hotel is perfectly sound. It is just contra-intuitive. Our Intuitions are paradoxical about that.

Anyhow that is, for other obviously reasons, the worst assertion every, I heard of, for an argument for the actual existence of an all-mighty, omni-present or all-whatever entity.

[slipcurve]

"everything that comes into existence is caused"

Makes no sense.

Can someone tell me atleast one thing that has "come into existence", so that we can verify that there is such a thing as "coming into existence".

And I don't mean reorganizing energy and particles to form an abstraction that the brain can recognize.

[jay666KJ]

I will debunk Migblocker's entire argument right now. APPEAL TO IGNORANCE! Even IFthe argument was actually correct, its appeal to ignorance. Oh, and just incase you want to know why he blocked me, well its because I commented on one of his videos 4 times in a row, refuting everything he said, and it was the first time I ever commented on a video of his.

[tabularasa000]

I see what you mean

[AnomalyEroteme]

I'm just curious.

Couldn't it just be argued that the universe had a state in which it was uncaused and then caused its self?

[RodHullIOnceWasHim]

That was a great explanation...

[Jtking3000]

i'm confused :S

[migkillertwo]

The reason I dont concede that the Kalam is unsound is Tooltime's presentation only affects how one should go about presenting the Kalam argument.

[XxMetalManxX]

watch the Atheist Experience's Kalam argument refutation, ex-christian's who run a public access show in Austin, Texas viewed by people all over the world.

[TheIrrationalAtheist]

"watch the Atheist Experience's Kalam argument refutation"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[unassumption]

Maybe there is no time, just a bunch of universes existing at states that seem to be connected when your in them :S

[xx13moons]

Have you read of the Buddhist concept of "dependent co-arising"? What do you think of this model of existence? Do you think it refutes the Kalam? But more importantly, do you think it can find a basis in modern physics or mathematics? Just wondering your opinion; because this phenomenon has always interested me.

[blackwolf1272]

It seems that many creos think that since we know that the universe started (we don't know that it had anything we would call a 'beginning', but that's a hard concept to accept) because it exists, it's somehow valid to claim something else about God, about whom we don't know anything. It's sort of a reversal of sound logic: where making claims about unknowns is more valid than about knowns.

[blackwolf1272]

TT, something completely different: What hair care stuff do you use? I'm long-haired too, but my hair keeps getting too dry and damaged. Asking because yours looks very healthy in this vid. Mine is more wavy than yours though, about halfway to Thunderf00t. :).

[anonymolol]

this is such a frustrating thing to debate with creationists because they always say "the bible says 'in the beginning', so we know the universe had a beginning..."

*PULLS HAIR OUT OF HEAD AND JUMPS OFF A CLIFF*

[mbozza]

my parents are both christians. my dad thinks the way the earth rotates and just the amount of oxygen, essentially the complexity of the universe means that their must be a designer(higher being, God) and my only thought is You've got to be kidding me.

[Hereticbooks]

I like the idea of an oscillating universe.

[Cletus575]

My view on this is that time does not exist. It's made up by human to make it easier simply. We still live in the same eternity. We, just as that other guy pointed out, messaure how "long" it takes for one thing to another. The thing is just because we can't imagine an existance without time, because it's simply in our nature, doesn't mean that there can't be an existence without time. Same thing goes with space. Humans are the smartest thing we know, but some things are far beyond our limits.

[RyuDarragh]

Exactly, Cletus575. The same argument applies to "3 dimensions of space". Anthropic nonsense, all of it.

[Cletus575]

There's no way that you can understand the how something can be etarnal. Therefor you put it in a perspective that we stupid humans can understand, in the same way that christians tries to make up an answer for things we make up something that put things that we don't get in perspective, so that we can live on our lifes without thinking about it. What I'm trying to say is that I think that the universe exists beyond both time, space and the human understanding. We are simply not smart enough.

[TheFallenFilms]

yeah. stupid!

[RyuDarragh]

I wouldn't put it in such absolute terms. Humans do not truly understand "eternity"... because no one has lived an eternal amount of time. And not thinking about it is what gets you into more trouble. Humans are not smart enough... yet.

[Cletus575]

Or maybe we don't understand eternity because it's all in our head. I think that since time and space are made up within the walls of human intelligence it has big flaws, because when it's put outside the human understanding, it doesn't make sense. Because before let's say the big bang, what says that you couldn't go back there and count to ten? I don't think that time has ever existed as an actuall thing. Do you get what I mean?

[RyuDarragh]

You can fall into Descartes trap of Solipsism where absolutely everything is in your head and nothing is real. The universe and it's properties we call space and time exist independant of us. However, we only poorly understand time and space and made those terms and concepts up because we haven't yet learned enough. It isn't a case of "can't", but a case of "don't". Will we ever fully understand? Only time will tell ;-)

[Cletus575]

Well, I guess you're right.

[ContinuumXT]

Yeah, I think I catch your drift. I think that's what tooltime is trying to tell.

The universe, as far as we can see is energy time and space and these properties are all related by the space time continuum.

These ideas all fail at the beginning of the universe.

But you cannot assert that the universe had a beginning. It could have easily existed for ever.

I guess we are not equiped to understand. What do we know.

[Cletus575]

No, I certainly don't think that the universe had a beginning. I think it has always been there and it just changes.

[ContinuumXT]

Me: "But you cannot assert that the universe had a beginning".

Cletus, I was referring to the guy who made that argument, not particular to you ;).

Also interesting to know is that there are even people thinking about making the universal constant speed of light c, time dependent at the beginning of the universe.

Was a good video about it.

Point being is that certainites are in our perspective of time, which is really small compared to lifetime universe ;)

Dust we are!

[Cletus575]

Oh, I see :D

We indeed are.

[shelley0809]

Time is a man-made measurement of cycles, however overall it's a direction, as you can't go backwards only a continuance of going forward. Yet again there's groundhog day!

[CrosshairJack]

The Kalam argument attempts to circumvent the problem of infinite regress but steps right into the problem of special pleading so is no better off.

If God not having a beginning is not a problem for defenders of this argument, why is it a problem for the natural universe, can't I just say that the universe has always existed?

[alastairguhn]

What is time other than the measure of change and/or events? I'm not sure I understand what other definition there is for time.

[Achenar12]

From what I've understood, we do NOT know whether universe had a beginning. All we really know or suspect was that there was this even called big bang. What was before that we just don't know. But just because there was this thing called big bang doesn't mean it was the "beginning" of universe.

[TheSandreGuy]

Correct!

There are no signs of that there ever was an empty universe before this one. All indications show that this universe is eternal.

Big Bang was just an expansion of space.

[DieChavScum]

Time does exist, it's the 4th dimension. Just so we're clear, yes, we do live in the 4th dimension.

[gothatfunk]

excellent. given me a lot to ponder.

[misternormL]

good stuff

[JWJSSIF]

time does not exsist. Just like a kilometer does not exsist. Kilometers and time are tools created by man. I guess I'm contradicting myself by saying this: they have always exsisted in the sense that if a human lived in the age of dinosaurs he could say "this dinosaur is 5 meters long" and "it takes 3 minutes for this dino to kill another dino". But there are no ACTUAL things called time and meters, like, for example gravity.

[CocoMac877]

a kilometre doesnt exist, bt distance does, a second doesnt exist bt time does

[SophistAtheist]

as long as humans exist, kilometers and seconds will exist. OWNT BIATCH

[CocoMac877]

no im nt 'ownt', i was explainin sumthin to someone else

[Boepyne]

Thalamay, in his video "Musings on religion 4..." has an interesting take on this.

[myprecious27]

causality is contained within the universe- one cannot talk about causality outside the universe, therefore to say that the universe has a cause is nonsensical and superfulous.

[Boepyne]

How can the universe existing for an infinite amount of time constitute an actual infinite if time is not real?

[LisaAnkh]

That's so fascinating:)

[brittanymlove]

Another amazing video, tooltime. You never cease to blow my mind. Thanks again, you rock. :)

[AndrewTheEternal]

Thanks of making me look up the Hilbert's Motel Paradox. It made your argument flow much better, while also blowing my mind.

[Gnomefro]

As far as I can tell, the paradox is simply the result of not realizing that infinity isn't a number, and that infinite sets can in fact have different sizes.

I believe one of Craig's examples amount to stating that 2*infinity=infinity. However:

lim x->infinity 2*x/x=2 not 1, as Craig's argument would indicate. So I actually don't think Craig's argument is even valid.

[AndrewTheEternal]

I know. That's why the tooltime's argument worked so much better once I looked it up; he seemed to skip that argument against...

Wait, who's Craig?

[samOFblorx]

I like the title. Funny.

Isn't there space outside our universe? I mean, before the big bang, wasn't there space around the little dot of everything? Is a universe only that which contains moving objects? Wasn't the "dot of everything" moving? I don't get it.

[deathrol3]

great

[cyxgun]

This is, precisely what I was trying to tell this guy in the comments section of his video: /watch?v=8N7GJhWGiBk called "The impossibility of creating time. In the video he takes the dictionary definition of time and tries to make it invalidate scientific concepts about time.

Time, to a quantum physicist, as well as to the universe, doesn't care how we define it. It's a property of the universe, and we cannot fully grasp it except in a mathematical abstraction. Common sense won't cut it.

[TETSUno1]

Hmm, according to physics; most things need a cause, and time is real. The whole argument seems like brain masturbation to me...

*shrug*

[AgentUnderdog1]

IMO, time is a scientific issue, not a philosphical one. Afterall, it is a dimension in our universe.

[izovire]

yeah... technical and rambling... I could define infinity as dividing something infinitely... such as putting a billion years into 1 second... taking a second of that billion and making another billion... it keeps going but in turn it's pointless to keep thinking about it... just let it happen

[mechoman444]

You can't put a billion years into one second because there already is one second in that billion years. So... you should keep thinking about it.

[mechoman444]

What does this have to do with anything?

[anonforuz]

philosophy has nothing to do about everything, but is found everywhere. Im not even sure if this statement means anything.

[Antichryst666]

I've always been lead to believe that the concept of time was meaningless when dealing with singularities. How can anyone have a prediction about what caused a singularity, when the singularity is probablistic foam? Right before you get to a singularity, time is boiled out of spacetime like water out of a board, space becomes quantum foam. (Kip Thorne) If the singularity is eternal, then it sounds like your example/argument about an eternal ball of matter (or singularity) would be right on TT

[Chuloloc]

Awesome. Well done, Tool.

[TheDeLoreanFlux]

Time is as real as length.

[aderek79]

I think Lambert is admitting that he has no sleeves, deodorant, or front teeth.

[PepperGeorge]

I agree with Emil,

I think GOd died, that's why we don't see his presence anymore

[ghostofdayinperson]

Kalam_______________ity.  Woot!

[Mephistophilus]

Prime mooOOOO-ver argument. Rib? They're delicious.

[TookiGuy]

This is kind of related -

In an unchanging state (infinite "ball" of matter in the "beginning" of the universe), wouldn't time around it (potentially everywhere) flow at an infinite rate? In other words, "time" as we know it would be a idle factor. Or is my understanding of this topic unclear?

[megamanium]

If an infinity is larger than another infinity, then the smaller infinity is no longer an infinity (being smaller than any other quantity). The problem with imagining infinities is in seeing it as a particular number. Infinity is more like an equation.

Hilbert's hotel does nothing to say that the universe could not exist for an infinite amount of time and saying so makes you a fucking retard. Infinite regress is only a problem if you are retarded in a similar fashion.

[tooltime9901]

I don't have a mullet you fucking moron.

[reddog22000]

Hahah, his comment confused me. I thought maybe he was talking about someone else actually called tooltapper.

[Ravindra9689]

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[FreePrometheus]

If you think he has a mullet you are a fucking moron.

[brutus149]

Don't feed the trolls.

[lambent77777]

You guys really aren't that in tune with humour are you? Wow! How can any of you take my comment seriously it was so over the top. You guys are acting like Hovind and Ham-boy the creationist. Think for once before you reply. You all need a humor transplant, especially Tappytoes and FreePrometheus. And FreePrometheus I hope Chiron helps you out.

[FreePrometheus]

Me calling you a fucking moron was funny to me. Plus, your joke was devoid of any humor at all because it made no sense. He obviously doesn't have a mullet. (not funny) Nothing you said including the comment you directed at me was funny. How old are you like 55? Your jokes are corny.

[ghostofdayinperson]

I wish I had as many sevens in my name as lambent77777.....then I could really bend some lambs. 77777777777777777777777777777

[lambent77777]

The word 'lambent' has nothing to do with mutton ghostinthetoast.

[DrSim0nSayz]

Once again Lambent77777 proves my thesis that the more 7s you have in your username, the greater the probability is that you are retarded.

[lambent77777]

What's up doc. You're not that bright and you don't really get humour and sarcasm. You're like one of the religulous creatards. You're so stupid you don't even know what a thesis is. Learn something for once, but we don't want you to pull a muscle in your brains while you're sitting on them.

[DrSim0nSayz]

I know more than you. Thesis - is a document that presents the author's research and findings. In this case the document contains the number of users with 7s in their username and their retarded comments.

You once again provided more evidence for my thesis.

It is you that don't get sarcasm nor humour.

I don't sit on my brain and the brain doesn't have any muscles unless you count the blood vessels but they are hard to pull.

please get an education and a sense of humour.

[Drynae]

My lucky number is butchered.

[DrSim0nSayz]

My lucky number is also seven.

No worries, as long as you don't put a 7 in your username you are fine.

[lambent77777]

You presented personal opinion as evidence. You equated the number of 7s in users monikers to being retarded. Some would not think the statements by people with 7s in their names were retarded, but cute, silly, venomous, etc. Remember there are many things a 4 year old understands that you'll never get. Watch "It's a Wonderful Life" for your answers to the brains reference. Remember "we are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams." You and tooltumbler are way too literal. Pc

[DrSim0nSayz]

"You presented personal opinion as evidence."

No, my comment was, unlike yours, actually a funny joke. I don't have written a thesis on this.

[lambent77777]

Why don't we start over. Did you get the brains reference? It's from Mr. Potter talking about Ernie the cabbie, sitting on his brains all day. Earlier, you talked about the brain not having any muscle. There are times when you shouldn't be so literal. Wouldn't you agree? Pc

[lambent77777]

Tooltickler (I never use anyone's real name, it's so Tuesday). There's a reason that reason alone will sometimes void the warranty on that sense of humor. Maybe you need to go outside and get a bit more vitamin D and a Toyota Prius. I suggest you swap that 'mullet' for some kiss curls. Then you and Betty Boop could hang out. Of course I know it's not a mullet so everyone go chill and watch a Pat Condell vid. If anyone takes me seriously then they deserve a seat next to Kent Hovind in jail.

[FreePrometheus]

Wow, I was only 15yrs. off the mark. I guess you really are an old un-funny bastard. Dude, it's 2009 watch some David Chapelle and get with the times you fucking lame wad.

[lambent77777]

I guess Chiron didn' t help you out Prometheus. You probably don't even get the reference. You would think someone with that moniker would get the Chiron reference. I make a couple of, I'll admit, lame jokes and everyone starts with the ad hominems. You atheists really need to get laid. Stop hanging out in front of your computer screens in your mom's basement. And I'm not religious, I have no label as I don't need one. I make a silly mullet reference and everyone freaks out. Jeebus.

[FreePrometheus]

No, I get the reference just fine.

As for the ad hominems, who's debating about anything to bring up philosophical terms? I just like calling you an old un-funny bastard. It makes me laugh. Stop hanging out in front of my computer? Bro, your posting dozens of comments about a lame mullet joke you made. Who's the loser?

Which brings up the next question. Why should I respond to you? I feel you should be notified about your lameness. Quit making stupid fucking jokes!

[lambent77777]

The ultimate through antepenultimate words were carefully selected from a cornucopia of verbums just for you son of Japetus. Enjoy!

Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!

Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.

Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!

Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!

Brian: Now, fuck off!

[FreePrometheus]

Good job. You get thumbs up for that comment.

[dbronco72]

@lambent77777 as funny as funny itself... andwe get to play a much longer movie in our heads....great comedy...god job

[Gnomesmusher]

Do you even know what a mullet is? Apparently not ...

[lambent77777]

Why would you say something that stupid? It was just the way he had his hair tied back behind his ears that it looked like a mullet for a sec. Why don't you people all chill out and go shave the sides of your heads.

[Gnomesmusher]

Ok fine. You might have been joking. But don't get all pissy because no one got your "joke". It had no indication at all that it was a joke especially in this context.

Besides, I've been "chill". I was only asking you a question.

[lambent77777]

Fine. I'll never use the word 'mullet' ever again. I feel like I've been put on the cross for making an off the cuff lame comment.

[migkillertwo]

Your analysis was spot-on today Peter. Good on you .Of course, I dont concede that the Kalam or other cosmological arguments are unsound, and I'm tempted to make a video response to this.

[infinity730]

Time doesn't ever *not exist*, if it did not exist at some point, nothing would ever happen, nor would anything have ever happened. QED.

[megamanium]

How does god exist forever if actual infinites are impossible?

[Emil246]

maybe he died, thats why he doesn't come to earth

[ethosflux]

infinites are possible, however god is not.

[DasAmericanAtheist]

Kant has that quote: if the universe began to exist, why did it wait an eternity to do so? or something like that.

[trumasamune]

lol I've never heard that before.

[jaynkay100]

I like Peter, he's cool.

[Boondockflyfish]

i agree

[RattleheadAnthony]

Well,that certainly is true. :D

[OctavioRedding]

Numberith?

[Greywyn7]

Fourth.

[IronMaidenGypsy]

wholy shit u sound like seth rogen

[migkillertwo]

hahahah yeah he does kind of.

[CENSOREDFORSEX]

Wow, never noticed that but he kind of does.

[BitRobot]

yay!

[Fieldeluxe]

Fuckin right.