@funkbrother216 Olbermann is entertainment or brain-dead liberal idiots. For a left-wing partisan hack to get fired from MSNBC,he has to really suck. Olbermann did, no doubt literally as well as figuratively.
Lets look at that 70 dollars an hour figure. If you look at all the things that Olbermann mentioned you will see all the costs that a company like GM has to account for. Add on top of that the costs to meet state and federal regulations and add on top of that the outrageous corporate taxes that they have to pay and then R&D and innumerable other costs, its no wonder the companies are not turning a profit. Cut corporate tax rates and they could've stood a chance...even with dealing with unions
Except, that that money $78 - $28 - or $whatever is covered by the price of the cars. Those cars that are sold... retail... by dealers, with financing, provided by (?), etc., etc., etc.... you see, there's a whole lot of hogs slopping at the same trough, and all of them are ultimately paid by some schmuck who makes $14 an hour with no bennies... who buys the car.
So Sorkin is wrong, but so is EVERYone else who would have us imagine there's JUST ONE reason Detroit produces overpriced crap.
yea well everyone should feel bad for the auto workers
and the unions are lucky and are protected...
but they are not the problem
it'slike you said....producing crappy cars....only Ford is standing becuase they can at least compete and do not produce crappy cars....only american company left with decency....
this guy is an idiot i ve seen shit talkers butt this guy makess millions and acts like hes on the people side, ha ha 38 they dont pay eighty percent on medical like most they dont pay anything for medical
GM failed because of its management. Their failure to invest and act with vision and foresight, and instead seek protection from the government (mileage standards anyone) have resulted in a portfolio of shit low-value cars that noone wants.
GM should be sold off to new investors who can use the assets in a more productive manner not siezed by the government to ensure its eventual destruction.
To act like the Union wasn't a major factor of the problem with GM is nuts. For a mass unskilled work force to start above $20hr with benfits and a retirment package hmm that might be a problem. If Unions do such a great job, I wonder why Toyota decide to build there plants in free to work states?
The problem isn't union alone, it was also management at GM to sign contracts to give away so much as though they had planned to be on top of the world for the next thousand years. Besides, to assume something is bad cause another business has a different plan is a fallacy. Similar to the ideology of republicans saying france is a failure for their liberal culture and more left/socialist government.
28 - 38 bucks an hour for a high school grad assembly line worker is fucking crazy. No auto worker on the assembly line should be making over 35K a year, that's just nuts.
No wonder GM and Chrysler are bankrupt. They were the MC Hammer's of the auto world.
35k huh?? That isn't even a living wage for a family of 3 in Michigan. At least you selected an arbitrary number that is above the poverty line, kudos. I suppose they should refrain from getting married and having children too because it hurts the bottom line?
Ahh, I see. In your opinion the only jobs that should get paid a decent salary are those that require formal education. Seems odd to me that you think that the guy who breaks his back to support his family doesn't deserve a fair wage in relation to the product he is producing. Tell me how you figure manual laborers aren't EARNing their pay? Why you don't feel they deserve a living wage for a family of 3? Remember, somebody has to make all the things you consume, and they can't all be teenagers.
I don't know where you live, but in Detroit, 35K is a very decent living wage. That is roughly $17 an hour, much higher than a teenager makes flipping burgers and is VERY decent for a person with no education working on the assembly line.
The notion that the "poor GM worker" *ONLY* made $30 an hour is just plain stupefying.
Yeah, poor GM worker, you only made twice what a teacher makes and more than a Registered Nurse that required much more education that you. /sarcasm
Check your info, clearly you aren't from Michigan. My grandfather retired from GM and Detroit was one of THE WORST cities to live in, and state of MI the worst states in economic crisis. He had worked there for 40 years breaking his back for this industry and he was still waiting for his money from retirement, but GM offered him not his already invested money, but cheap stock into the country. Why the hell invest into a company that screwed u, & you know this because they cant pay you!@UltraSWG
My grandfather who worked for GM has two hip replacements, practically blind, and not to forget to mention his wife has health issues...severe health issues.. The deal was they would get only 35,000 to retire.. Also, education is SO bad in MI- this is clear because of the republicans the F***cked us in MI and WI..they robbed us..you know the guys who are for privatization-less government? the problem was we don't produce enough in US and thats why we had a huge bail out- @UltraSWG
We spend more than we save in our country and that is why China chewed up the debt...who got the bail out at GM? the people who make a shit ton of money--the scraps went to the backbone of the industry..those workers. the US has more specialized labor result of capitalism..with this collapse the people who produce hurt economically because they hold up peoples jobs in nursing, politics, tech., etc. Nurses spend they dont produce...they work, but they dont produce-thats the difference @UltraSWG
Olbermann's just doing what any protectionist moron who wants to give GM workers special treatment rather than force them to face reality and layoffs does: spinning someone else's claims about the costs of workers and unions and making it seem like management is 100% the reason. Well, management obviously has a hand in it, but UAW is at fault too for constantly asking "more more more." He, like a lot of liberals, mistakenly thinks only the "fatcats" are to blame, and unions can do no wrong.
It's hilarious how the Left justifies closed shops, just like Obama did about a month ago or maybe half a month at a town hall. I can't really remember the exact date. Yeah, because unions know better than individual workers what's best for them. Lol
Nice job, Keitho! Lying about the study, I see. I'm pretty sure they never actually said GM workers "make $70/hour." The claim, and rightly so, was that the average worker COSTS the company $70/hour including benefits. Fucking moron. Do you know how to READ? I don't think even conservative groups would be ridiculous enough to make such an outlandish claim as "Well, GM workers make $70/hour." hahaha. That would certainly make them upper middle class, if not upper class.
no where does an assembly line worker in the automotive industry gets an average of $28. Even if you count in cost of living per area you still don't even come close. If i remember correctly the starting wage for a nissan plant worker was like 14 or so in tennessee. Also i do believe there was no actual schooling or auto motive background requirement for assembly line workers. $28 and hour with full benifits including lasik eye surgery is rediculous is way to high for a line worker
well considering GM went under i'm not sure you can count my comment out as just opinion or belief. Also since they went under there is some proof in my statement besides the management decisions. It did cost Gm $3000 more to make a car than a car made in the states that wasn't unionized.
Look i'm not against unions. just that the UAW went a bit overboard.
Sure I can. "no where does an assembly line worker in the automotive industry gets an average of $28" doesn't even make sense. $28 is the AVERAGE wage of ALL auto workers. Not the average for entry-level in Tenn, or wherever.
Average wages means you take all wages of current workers (not the cost of employing them) and divide by number of employees. Entry-level as well as 30-year employees. So $28 really isn't "too much," I'm sure you'll agree. Some make less than that, some make more.
It was the average wage for UAW auto workers. If you remember the original number by the new york times was talking about an inflated number which added in wage as well as benefits targeting the UAW workers then keith broke it down what the actual average UAW worker actually made.
But i defintly see your point that when averaging 30 year works how $28 dollors doesn't seem like too much. Although the benifits recieved i believe was too much. The benifits far outwayed the wage.
Benefits are what make a job a career to hang onto. The global economy has become to mercenary, like our armies. Who works 30 years anywhere anymore? Why, when your employer can cut you or your bennies at any moment?
I think employers have to either pony up bennies ... or keep wages above cost-o-living, inflation, etc.
Otherwise, employees have to pay for their own bennies or do without them, or do without buying stuff, or buy stuff they can't afford on credit.
This is my own opinion but i believe employers should keep wages above cost of living while providing smart benifits. In the case of the UAW i think thier benefits were exorbant. but then again so was the compensation awarded to the ceo's.
The truth is workers get paid to little in the US when you add in cost of living and more and more jobs are being outsourced. The real question is how do you solve that problem. I don't have an answer for that.
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Olberman shows just how dumb he is!!!
I'm surprised someone with these few brain cells actually can speak!
OF COURSE, moron, that is exactly what the point is!
Total labor costs (expenses that they MUST PAY even though most recipients don't provide anything to the company anymore - if ever) divided by actual productive hours worked = $70/ hour.
This guy needs a business education; maybe he won't sound so dumb anymore.
I suppose you where a huge Bush supporter. You business people are just the money changers of our day. You know the low lives. Republicans lie about every thing and get caught on just about everything. Sociopaths they are.
REALLY??! Name one quote that he misquoted? Fox news is the KING of making up their own strawmen and shooting it down. Its fair to say that Olberman sometimes takes it to far, But the fact remains, Fox news doesnt seem to think that FACTS matter. Watch outfoxed and you'll see how fair and balanced their news station is. Fox news will make news out of a dogs ass and call it BREAKING NEWS, LOL!
Actually Keith, in business you must account for all your legacy costs, basic accounting man. But you are right that that number was not properly marketed for what it was for shock value. I don't know if this guy deserved Worst Person, it's the media's (your) fault for not explaining this better, earlier. But you're just an anchor, you're good at talking but limited in understanding ;-)
I'm not sure about this Times report, but the stat addresses hourly labor costs. It cost GM $69 for every hour of labor (including all the things olby mentioned), while Toyota only pays $48 for an hour of labor. This is undoubtedly because of union benefits. The idea is that it is a lot harder to be competitive when you have those numbers against you.
It's a misleading comparison, if one doesn't factor in the promises GM made to prior employees when times were booming. It doesn't reflect current operating costs, which is what apologists for greedy, wealthy parasites (aka. "elites") are implying.
correction - should read "reflect current wages" not "operating costs." IOW. the problem here isn't that current GM employees are being paid a LIVING WAGE.
If Sorkin has a big problem with union workers, he should start by looking at the people who write him his checks. No not the corporate lobbyists, the NY Times. How do you think all those papers hit the stands by 5 in the morning? Union workers.
Maybe those guys should do us all a favor and rip out the pages with Sorkin's columns. Save us on our garbage pickup
Unions are one of the few avenues to combat the class warfare being waged on the working class. We need to protect them at all cost
So if you were making $28 and happy with it, but then someone tried to get it cut in half because they said you were making $70 you would be okay with that?
Hate to break it to you but for 28 dollars an hour they are putting out crap cars. I know they don't design them, but the product is inferior. Many were born into the job. Business as usual has brought them down. Yeah, $28.00 an hour is damn good. Cut it in half? Hmmmm $14.00 an hour for a blue collar job? With medical and pension? Join the real world Doc, some people would fight for the job and live in a trailer if they had to. The whole thing is typical American economics, "Gimme, Gimme".
You are failing to account for the increase in productivity that these workers are responsible for. $14.00 an hour is enough to get a mortgage on a 1 bedroom condo and own a car.
You can't raise a family, you can't retire, you can't afford health care. 14$ is an entry level wage.
Unless you want to make an argument for a permanent peasant class in America you need to pay full time long term employees more.
ok, then don't bitch when your $35,000.00 econo-box falls apart after 8 months. We have a peasant class already, it's called the WalMart /fastfood workforce. Where have you been?
There's kind of a pissy smugness I see coming from some in the "peasant class", however - as if some of these oft screwed over, low wage workers are happy to see the last "good jobs" fall to the wayside, and see their numbers grow.
It's why the peons can be almost as disgusting as the filthy rich "elites." They're mutual enablers - their shared avarice is what keeps this racket going.
That we can agree on. Too long workers have had the ability to demand that employers provide what they want. The unions with their crooked management have stolen from the rank and file so long they are disillusioned. My dad was a laborer all his life and when he lost the sight in his eye the union lied to him and screwed him out of his retirement. He busted his ass and never got the money these auto workers are bitching about. His union did him no good. Hung him out to dry. Good ol' Hoffa
$28.00 per hour works out to be $58,240.00 per year (gross).
$70.00 per hour equals $145,600 per year (gross).
58K/year is a decent living, but by no means extravagant. I've never worked on an automotive assembly line, but I have a feeling they earn every penny.
Instead of focusing on BS like the $70/hour lie, we should be examining the incomes of the multinational corporate CEOs, and whether they deserve THEIR salaries.
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You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
Most of us Republicans work hard, put in MORE than 8 hours a day, have had - or still have - manual labor jobs, and look at the common laziness of our liberal co-workers and say to ourselves "No wonder they want a government that will give them everything; they don't do anything for themselves..."
that's not a biased, baseless statement, now is it? i can just as soon go around and say "i work hard for everything i have. but these christian friends of mine spend all day praying to god to just hand it over to them! no wonder they believe in fairy tales, the lazy hypocrites!"
CEO's still the labor of others who work. You are a total moron. The richest people work the least. Jesus was most likely a communist. He cared for the sick and the poor. I wonder what the punishment is for try to misrepresent Christianity to fit your right wing pro business ideology.
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CEOs don't work? You're stupid! Lets just see what happens to any company where the CEOs not putting in 10-14 hour days, 6 days a week... it would fail and everyone would lose their jobs.
To call Jesus a communist is to show your ignorance of the Bible. "let every man eat of his own bread..."?
You think the weekends and the 40hr work week were stolen from the bosses by unions. I guess you would like to see American chattel slavery again or maybe .40 cents an hour. People like you are call fascists.
Unions had/have a purpose. But when unions have so much power that they kill the companies their members work for (as in US Steel, Chrysler, GM, Delta Airlines, Northwestern Airlines, etc.) the balance is lost to the detriment of both management and the labor.
That is where American labor law has been since the 1940s and we see the results of robber-baron unions in the failing of GM and Chrysler.
You are so brainwashed. Union memberships are at some of the lowest levels ever in America. Why don't you look up what your talking about before you make a fool of yourself on the internet.ha ha. Since Reagan there have been laws making it harder to be in a Union. Fox is brainwashing you. They know you are not gonna look anything up for yourself.lol sheep
the finance sector is run by the NWO that also support both parties and the unions against the people & free enterprise. viva Poncho , down with the federalies!!! tj
just like that stupid lizard race...shit needs to stop
the only conspiracy is involved with military cases and so forth....
the only thing that is wrong with the financial sector is GREED and everyone trying to be like gordon gecko....NOT SOME FUCKING BLACK OP PRIVATE SECTOR ORGANIZATION
this isn't the da vinci code.....it's fucking ppl fucking over other ppl
So you were thinking wallstreet as an example? Or perhaps Wal-mart, or starbucks? I'm not saying alot of unions aren't broken, but being anti-union is no solution. Someone has to represent the worker. Unless by "rest of us" you mean those fattening themselves on Limbaughs tits, who prefer to have others do their thinking for them. Ever consider that if union membership was up, and they had more control, that we might not be in this mess? The pieces fit. What are you proposing exactly?
First, your assertion that Rush listeners don't think for themselves is an idiotic claim. Surveys, by Pew and Gallup, indicate that Rush has probably the most educated and most well-read audiences around.
Unions, in the modern sense, use government coercion to keep their industries backwards.
The problem with our economy is that the government has already coerced our companies into failure.
did you sleep through the last couple of years? you missed the housing boom/bust caused by "too big to fail" banks -- nothing union and none of them are on your list. the heat in vegas must be getting to you.
how old are you? grow up. seriously. all you do is come here night after night and pick fights. go find another sandbox to play bully in.
and when did construction go union anyway? here in florida as with most of the sun belt all the construction is done by illegals.
do you notice how those leftists freedom of (thier) speech lovers seem to red thumb those comments that they disagree with in an attempt to block out rebuttal. i see that as a major sign of thier weakness of thought knowing thier arguments will not stand up to the light of truth. tj
is your anti-christ attitude tolerance? and if God does hand it over to them, are you jealous? and don't the Liberals pray to thier gods(uaw & big gov't) to give it to them without working for it? but your gods don't create wealth, they take wealth from hard working taxed to death others by thier income redistribution schemes. Every one believes in something & you believe in big government, your god will fail you. My God never fails. tj
you can tell that to Him when you see Him. It is terrible to fall into the hands of The Almighty God after rejecting His only begotten Son as your Lord & Savior. tj
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It's the cost. Everyone that gets a dollar adds to the cost of that one person still working. It's the cost per worker that is the point. Hire a guy to cut your lawn for 20 bucks and when he's 1/2 done he extorts 20 more bucks for his sick brother that can't work. Then when he's 3/4 done he extorts 20 more bucks for his old mother. When he's finished he won't move his truck out of the drive until you pay a 20 buck exit fee. It cost you 80 bucks for a 20 buck job. gonna hire him next week? tj
Nope back at you. Your cyclical reasoning makes me think i'm talking to a child, so i'll make it simple for you. You bring up extraneous data and ascribe it to the topic incorrectly. The point is that if the UAW forces any company to pay for all the non-productive costs related to getting ONE worker to work, the company goes broke and then no one has a JOB and if it spreads to the entire industry even the Union Bosses & gov't don't get paid and the entire economy fails. Yes you are sorry. tj
And does that make it okay for him to lie about the wage of autoworkers? No. Is the non-productive costs of several workers EQUAL to the non-productive costs of one worker? No. You are dodging.
At no point have I talked about unions being good or bad. I'm talking about telling the truth and pundits bending facts to make a talking point. You rant, name call, and talk about unions and commies. Honestly.
Yep, that's exactly what everyone is saying. The $70 figure came from taking the past employees cost and adding it on top of the current employees cost.
The end result is a talking point that makes people far removed from the situation go "They get paid three times what I do? Holy crap?!"
Right wingers know that these numbers are fudged but they repeat them over and over. Win they get caught in one lie they just move right on to the next. Then they go to church. lol
sort of like that un-locked lock box al gore was talking about for social security that the government spent but the government is a mega crook and makes GM look like a punk. So whiz brain if you can see that it's wrong for GM to do it on a smaller scale, what's the matter with you for not seeing it's 10 times worse on the government scale. That IS the point. Corporate screw-ups are bad Government screw-ups are worse but you ding dongs want to give more power to the bigger crooks. dah!!! tj
On the other hand, if you hire people to make your product, being made at an almost 80% profit margin (according to an IRS business statistic) at the same time you receive tax deductions because you provide jobs to the community. In a system that rewards the wealthy and shifts the tax burden to the lower middle class, you can hardly complain about giving your workers the fruits of their labor.
so what's it to you mr. canadian you've left your socialist nation to wreck ours. then where will you run to for a JOB? Get back over the border and quit subverting my nation to be as bad as your's is for oportunity of the individual. Canada the Beautiful should be ashamed of you. You are nothing but a commie subversive, & we know it. Viva Poncho! tj
Canada has more liberties then you can dream up and pays far less taxes then most Americans. Not to mention we have something to show for the taxes we do pay.
The differences between the US and Canada is, people like you, (the christ cultist), are ostracized and have very little say in public forum. Our system of education promotes critical thinking that neutralizes your ideology.
The republicans have created more social programs, it makes Karl Marx cringe.
you demonstrate that the real issue of the conflict of ideas is one of Christ vs anti-christ. Also if the Canadian military is so great why would you serve 10 years in the US military, as your page claims, was it for the pay and VA educational benefits? Also please wait in line for any needed major health care need to be provided by your "Cheeper' system. US Military take an oath to defend the US Constitution from all enemies foreign & domestic. You dishonor that oath or lied. tj
The only conflict that exist, are the cult worms in your head, there was no christ for there to be an anti-christ. Stick to Santa he's much more relevant.
My ten years spent in the military were and still are, a cherished event in my life time, I've learned allot. The problems came after I got out and looked around at an insane American society which made me ask myself just what the hell the was I defending.
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been there & done that before you did. I lived up to my oath & did not , and will not abandon my nation, and will continue to defend The Constitution of The United States against all enemies foreign & domestic. Jesus Christ is King of Kings & Lord of Lords. Every knee shall bow & every tongue confess that now, or in eternity. tj
So tj, what does that say about your forefathers who abandoned their old nation, to come here? did they live up to their oath? You know, the ones that fled from religious tyranny.
You mean those that fled from tyranny so that they could freely worship God. They said we have no king but The Lord Jesus Christ. My forefathers were those that abandon a heavy handed oppressor with an excessive central control of thier lives. The european based NWO has been dooging thier tracks since. We threw off thier shackles once and we'll do it again so help me God. tj
Communism didn't die it just mutated into both of the political parties (D's & R's) McCarthy has only been on vacation. Guess you missed that memo. Oh yeah, he's comming back and bringing Poncho Villa' & Dirty Harry & Judge Roy Bean with him. Gonna hang all the bad guys and then give em a fair trial ,That's Bubba Law tj
LOL, so you have your money on a dead Mexican outlaw, a fictional movie character, and racist and biggotted rogue justice of the peace? Thanks, but I'll stick with reality.
I am so glad we live in a country where "bubba law" is a thing long past and we are now innocent until proven guilty. But hey, you can always move to a country like Somalia where bubba law is still in effect, unfortunately you would be the "chinaman" in the equation.
the spirit, of that dead mexican was for the underdog, the fictional character was against the criminal and the judge was for justice. We all must stand for the "chinaman" in this equation for if we do not who will be left to stand when they come for us? Face it the UAW & the gov't do not make jobs except by the money they take from working people. Aside from that please answer how can liberals being so against big business be so in favor of big government that is business-like on steroides.
First, as long as individual players are allowed individual contracts - sports and Hollywood don't count.
As for the others, some are so vital (food, for example) that they will survive until a non-union competitor comes along (WalMart, for example) which - because their costs are more reasonable - can sell for less. Time will tell.
they've killed the biggest & one of the oldest the rest will follow as they seize the means of production. Russia took about 80 years to be killed by communism so that should be close to the life cycle of unionized control.
it took 50 years for the unions & over regulation from gov't to kill the biggest private sector employer. Given just a little more time the commies can also kill the rest of meaningful private sector JOB making companies, GM was just the start. They took out the biggest the rest will go down easy. The biggest enemy of free enterprise is the Mega Federated Centralized Government Bosses. So keep sucking up to the nanny state until nanny eats you for lucch. That's serf cannibalism. You want that?tj
1 evertbody's fault. 2 now THEY will make cars that no one wants as government motors. 3 and you don't say much at all. ps i've run out the 500 character count quite often pointing out substantive clarifications of errored opinions held by argumentative ideologues and still do i search for reasonable rebuttal of the facts. Also consider that due to EPA manipulations all new autos available to the common buyer have been inundated with Toxic Formaldehyde & benzene. = cancerous autos. tj
ok friend here we go again, First of all you need not ascribe your point #1 to anything i have claimed. You must look back several years to observe the finger prints of government's manipulative regulations all over the manufacturing sector, not just 5 or so months ago. #2 when you ask, 1947 and you can do your own homework. #3 that's your opinion and you're stuck with it. tj
I'm simply challenging your point of view, and seeing what you can do about it. Will you offer some type of solution/idea, or will you whine and moan about how America is not how it use to be in the 50-60s. And I'm quite please with my opinion.
there is no solution for GM. It's too late for them & thier employees. There's no going back to the 50-60 era either. My concern is that the USA not advance to a mushy euro socialist feckless entity. To only challenge others points of view how will that gain anything? My basic suggestion to restore our nation in purely secular terms would make it manditory that every citizen study the US Constitution, Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence. People must know where they come from. TJ
Get 'em, Keith!
funkbrother216 6 months ago
@funkbrother216 Olbermann is entertainment or brain-dead liberal idiots. For a left-wing partisan hack to get fired from MSNBC,he has to really suck. Olbermann did, no doubt literally as well as figuratively.
RadarGuidedVermin 2 months ago
@RadarGuidedVermin Typo: "for"
RadarGuidedVermin 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Nielsen Ratings for Wednesday, October 21st
FOX NEWS O'Reilly
Demo 984,000 Total 3,722,000
MSNBC Olbermann
Demo 315,000 Total 1,222,000
NastevilsBack 2 years ago
Go Keith Go
eunicron 2 years ago
Lets look at that 70 dollars an hour figure. If you look at all the things that Olbermann mentioned you will see all the costs that a company like GM has to account for. Add on top of that the costs to meet state and federal regulations and add on top of that the outrageous corporate taxes that they have to pay and then R&D and innumerable other costs, its no wonder the companies are not turning a profit. Cut corporate tax rates and they could've stood a chance...even with dealing with unions
Jlogan20 2 years ago
The $70 is used to describe what GM labor costs are, not to demonize the workers. That $70 is vs, the roughly $40 total labor costs for Toyota USA.
heyricksander 2 years ago
olbermann should be his own worst person in the world!!!
Zach1740 2 years ago
Except, that that money $78 - $28 - or $whatever is covered by the price of the cars. Those cars that are sold... retail... by dealers, with financing, provided by (?), etc., etc., etc.... you see, there's a whole lot of hogs slopping at the same trough, and all of them are ultimately paid by some schmuck who makes $14 an hour with no bennies... who buys the car.
So Sorkin is wrong, but so is EVERYone else who would have us imagine there's JUST ONE reason Detroit produces overpriced crap.
voyeurdug 2 years ago
yea well everyone should feel bad for the auto workers
and the unions are lucky and are protected...
but they are not the problem
it'slike you said....producing crappy cars....only Ford is standing becuase they can at least compete and do not produce crappy cars....only american company left with decency....
teds31 2 years ago
wow i wish that we conservatives had an articulate voice to best demonstrate the flaws of the other side :/
instead we get oriely
nom9rouge 2 years ago
sucks doesn't it...
you had mike huckabee but now he's falling off
now only shep smith is left....at least he knows better sometimes
teds31 2 years ago
Well done to Keith for exposing the dishonesty of the right wing.
rickelmonoggin 2 years ago
this guy is an idiot i ve seen shit talkers butt this guy makess millions and acts like hes on the people side, ha ha 38 they dont pay eighty percent on medical like most they dont pay anything for medical
teacherphysics 2 years ago
People want the money, I want the money, I CAN'T SURVIVE WITH THE CRAP THEY GIVE ME AFTER CHOOSING TO SPEND MOST MY PAY ELSE WHERE!!!
Onompoly 2 years ago
Fuck your ass Sorkin! Double Stuffed!
brandonhansentx 2 years ago
tj
Simply put if someone had the choice of buying a Camry/Accord or a Malibu/Impala which would they pick?
Fortunately we don't have to guess. We all know that for a long time GM products were looked at as inferior. And no one was buying them.
That has nothing to do with the unions or the gov.
Again tj if your going to be do all this talking please have something worthwhile to say.
EFAIR3 2 years ago
When you corner him or shut him down, he just barrel rolls over to another topic to start again. It's amazing.
DoctorMeh 2 years ago
GM failed because of its management. Their failure to invest and act with vision and foresight, and instead seek protection from the government (mileage standards anyone) have resulted in a portfolio of shit low-value cars that noone wants.
The GM CEO packages are an outrage.
alexerb 2 years ago
I blame management, labor, and the government.
GM should be sold off to new investors who can use the assets in a more productive manner not siezed by the government to ensure its eventual destruction.
TedinLasVegas 2 years ago
Whoa, no way that Olbermann just defended unions!
MichaelbrownSUD 2 years ago
Jewish Hillary Hitler Trilateral Commission Communism Obama Fema Camps Ron Paul Gold Standard Thermite
poop121 2 years ago
I blame Oberman for Global Warming!!....all his Hot Air must be killing the enviorment.....whens MSNBC just gonna keel over and fail like Air America
IDOLSMASHER 2 years ago
Yeah, except Air America didn't fail, what failed was the public school provided for you in hopes you get a real education at a community college.
LifeinaRaindrop 2 years ago
To act like the Union wasn't a major factor of the problem with GM is nuts. For a mass unskilled work force to start above $20hr with benfits and a retirment package hmm that might be a problem. If Unions do such a great job, I wonder why Toyota decide to build there plants in free to work states?
Amills11 2 years ago
The problem isn't union alone, it was also management at GM to sign contracts to give away so much as though they had planned to be on top of the world for the next thousand years. Besides, to assume something is bad cause another business has a different plan is a fallacy. Similar to the ideology of republicans saying france is a failure for their liberal culture and more left/socialist government.
LifeinaRaindrop 2 years ago
If you calculate the hourly wages of ALL the car company employees, all the way to the top of management, the number is more like $700 and hour.
getplaning 2 years ago 2
@TedinLasVegas
"...most well-read audiences around*."
*around areas with highest illiteracy rates.
jaymo881 2 years ago
TedinLasVegas is a troll, do not feed him.
flang 2 years ago 3
28 - 38 bucks an hour for a high school grad assembly line worker is fucking crazy. No auto worker on the assembly line should be making over 35K a year, that's just nuts.
No wonder GM and Chrysler are bankrupt. They were the MC Hammer's of the auto world.
UltraSWG 2 years ago
35k huh?? That isn't even a living wage for a family of 3 in Michigan. At least you selected an arbitrary number that is above the poverty line, kudos. I suppose they should refrain from getting married and having children too because it hurts the bottom line?
acseeley 2 years ago
Yes, 35K for a high school grad is more than fair. That is teachers get paid and they have a four year degree!
Want more money? Get an education and EARN it. You don't get more money just for getting married and having kids unless you're on welfare.
UltraSWG 2 years ago
I think you've got that backwards.
eric3141k 2 years ago
Ahh, I see. In your opinion the only jobs that should get paid a decent salary are those that require formal education. Seems odd to me that you think that the guy who breaks his back to support his family doesn't deserve a fair wage in relation to the product he is producing. Tell me how you figure manual laborers aren't EARNing their pay? Why you don't feel they deserve a living wage for a family of 3? Remember, somebody has to make all the things you consume, and they can't all be teenagers.
acseeley 2 years ago 4
I don't know where you live, but in Detroit, 35K is a very decent living wage. That is roughly $17 an hour, much higher than a teenager makes flipping burgers and is VERY decent for a person with no education working on the assembly line.
The notion that the "poor GM worker" *ONLY* made $30 an hour is just plain stupefying.
Yeah, poor GM worker, you only made twice what a teacher makes and more than a Registered Nurse that required much more education that you. /sarcasm
UltraSWG 2 years ago
well said.
deveousdevil 2 years ago
Check your info, clearly you aren't from Michigan. My grandfather retired from GM and Detroit was one of THE WORST cities to live in, and state of MI the worst states in economic crisis. He had worked there for 40 years breaking his back for this industry and he was still waiting for his money from retirement, but GM offered him not his already invested money, but cheap stock into the country. Why the hell invest into a company that screwed u, & you know this because they cant pay you!@UltraSWG
kaunis12 7 months ago
My grandfather who worked for GM has two hip replacements, practically blind, and not to forget to mention his wife has health issues...severe health issues.. The deal was they would get only 35,000 to retire.. Also, education is SO bad in MI- this is clear because of the republicans the F***cked us in MI and WI..they robbed us..you know the guys who are for privatization-less government? the problem was we don't produce enough in US and thats why we had a huge bail out- @UltraSWG
kaunis12 7 months ago
We spend more than we save in our country and that is why China chewed up the debt...who got the bail out at GM? the people who make a shit ton of money--the scraps went to the backbone of the industry..those workers. the US has more specialized labor result of capitalism..with this collapse the people who produce hurt economically because they hold up peoples jobs in nursing, politics, tech., etc. Nurses spend they dont produce...they work, but they dont produce-thats the difference @UltraSWG
kaunis12 7 months ago
finally somebody took on this bullshit.
spartan2600 2 years ago
omg wow did he die?
Skurgefaust 2 years ago
Ouch, the sound quality. Turn down the gain folks!
TheRamenAvenger 2 years ago
I thought it was recent until I heard Olbermann say "This Thanksgiving."
Why post it six months later, C-SPANJunkie?
MooseOfReason 2 years ago
if 28 dollars is too much for factory workers than millions upon millions for executives is too much.
what the ceo does during any given week will affect you a lot less than the guy assembling your brakes, seat belts, engine or transmission.
1samothrace77 2 years ago
Olbermann's just doing what any protectionist moron who wants to give GM workers special treatment rather than force them to face reality and layoffs does: spinning someone else's claims about the costs of workers and unions and making it seem like management is 100% the reason. Well, management obviously has a hand in it, but UAW is at fault too for constantly asking "more more more." He, like a lot of liberals, mistakenly thinks only the "fatcats" are to blame, and unions can do no wrong.
whoo689 2 years ago
It's hilarious how the Left justifies closed shops, just like Obama did about a month ago or maybe half a month at a town hall. I can't really remember the exact date. Yeah, because unions know better than individual workers what's best for them. Lol
whoo689 2 years ago
Nice job, Keitho! Lying about the study, I see. I'm pretty sure they never actually said GM workers "make $70/hour." The claim, and rightly so, was that the average worker COSTS the company $70/hour including benefits. Fucking moron. Do you know how to READ? I don't think even conservative groups would be ridiculous enough to make such an outlandish claim as "Well, GM workers make $70/hour." hahaha. That would certainly make them upper middle class, if not upper class.
whoo689 2 years ago
are you sure or just sort of sure or maybe pretty sure or kinda of sure...
you better go make sure
1samothrace77 2 years ago
$28 dollors an hour is still to much for factory workers.
SYNICtheAtheist 2 years ago
Prove it.
tonycapricorny 2 years ago
no where does an assembly line worker in the automotive industry gets an average of $28. Even if you count in cost of living per area you still don't even come close. If i remember correctly the starting wage for a nissan plant worker was like 14 or so in tennessee. Also i do believe there was no actual schooling or auto motive background requirement for assembly line workers. $28 and hour with full benifits including lasik eye surgery is rediculous is way to high for a line worker
SYNICtheAtheist 2 years ago
That's opinion, belief, and poor memory, not proof.
tonycapricorny 2 years ago
well considering GM went under i'm not sure you can count my comment out as just opinion or belief. Also since they went under there is some proof in my statement besides the management decisions. It did cost Gm $3000 more to make a car than a car made in the states that wasn't unionized.
Look i'm not against unions. just that the UAW went a bit overboard.
SYNICtheAtheist 2 years ago
Sure I can. "no where does an assembly line worker in the automotive industry gets an average of $28" doesn't even make sense. $28 is the AVERAGE wage of ALL auto workers. Not the average for entry-level in Tenn, or wherever.
Average wages means you take all wages of current workers (not the cost of employing them) and divide by number of employees. Entry-level as well as 30-year employees. So $28 really isn't "too much," I'm sure you'll agree. Some make less than that, some make more.
tonycapricorny 2 years ago
It was the average wage for UAW auto workers. If you remember the original number by the new york times was talking about an inflated number which added in wage as well as benefits targeting the UAW workers then keith broke it down what the actual average UAW worker actually made.
But i defintly see your point that when averaging 30 year works how $28 dollors doesn't seem like too much. Although the benifits recieved i believe was too much. The benifits far outwayed the wage.
SYNICtheAtheist 2 years ago
Benefits are what make a job a career to hang onto. The global economy has become to mercenary, like our armies. Who works 30 years anywhere anymore? Why, when your employer can cut you or your bennies at any moment?
I think employers have to either pony up bennies ... or keep wages above cost-o-living, inflation, etc.
Otherwise, employees have to pay for their own bennies or do without them, or do without buying stuff, or buy stuff they can't afford on credit.
Which is where we are now.
tonycapricorny 2 years ago
This is my own opinion but i believe employers should keep wages above cost of living while providing smart benifits. In the case of the UAW i think thier benefits were exorbant. but then again so was the compensation awarded to the ceo's.
The truth is workers get paid to little in the US when you add in cost of living and more and more jobs are being outsourced. The real question is how do you solve that problem. I don't have an answer for that.
SYNICtheAtheist 2 years ago
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Olberman shows just how dumb he is!!!
I'm surprised someone with these few brain cells actually can speak!
OF COURSE, moron, that is exactly what the point is!
Total labor costs (expenses that they MUST PAY even though most recipients don't provide anything to the company anymore - if ever) divided by actual productive hours worked = $70/ hour.
This guy needs a business education; maybe he won't sound so dumb anymore.
TedinLasVegas 2 years ago
No stupid. That gives you cash flow. "Salary" isn't calculated that way.
jwkinraleigh 2 years ago
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No kidding. It was OLBERMAN who changed the terms.
It's a common liberal tactic; change something intelligent that a conservative asserts into something stupid and attack it!
It's really all he does on his show. He has the brain power of a stick.
TedinLasVegas 2 years ago
I suppose you where a huge Bush supporter. You business people are just the money changers of our day. You know the low lives. Republicans lie about every thing and get caught on just about everything. Sociopaths they are.
atripa645 2 years ago 2
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No, Bush made the same mistakes D'ohBama does, only smaller.
TedinLasVegas 2 years ago
Olberman debunks all right wing antics and their attacks, cause apparently the right has a problem of reporting FACTS. fox news........hint-hint.
faifaalelei 2 years ago 3
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He only debunks the strawmen he creates.
He starts with misquoting a conservative, misconstruing the statement into something other than what was said, and then shoots that down.
Its an old child's trick, but that's all Olberman is - an old child.
TedinLasVegas 2 years ago
REALLY??! Name one quote that he misquoted? Fox news is the KING of making up their own strawmen and shooting it down. Its fair to say that Olberman sometimes takes it to far, But the fact remains, Fox news doesnt seem to think that FACTS matter. Watch outfoxed and you'll see how fair and balanced their news station is. Fox news will make news out of a dogs ass and call it BREAKING NEWS, LOL!
faifaalelei 2 years ago
All of the former employees paid into the pension fund. lol You are a retard.
atripa645 2 years ago 2
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What fund?
Its a defined benefit plan; there is no "fund" moron. The payments, much like the ponzi-scheme Socialist Insecurity, come out of current earnings.
Get an education, dimwit.
TedinLasVegas 2 years ago
If we disclose UFOs technology we could save the economy of the entire world!
Starteller 2 years ago 3
He is an evil little turd. Like management didn't suck billions out of the companies over the years with the sort term profit policy.
437thx1138 2 years ago
Actually Keith, in business you must account for all your legacy costs, basic accounting man. But you are right that that number was not properly marketed for what it was for shock value. I don't know if this guy deserved Worst Person, it's the media's (your) fault for not explaining this better, earlier. But you're just an anchor, you're good at talking but limited in understanding ;-)
spikesmth 2 years ago
$28 to screw a tire on and do a job that could eventually be replaced by a robot? I'd take it.
JobDDT 2 years ago
Weren't they both on the Bill Maher show together?
GonzoTheGreat3000 2 years ago
I thought in a capitalist society we would be happy for people that make good money, even if they are factory workers.
Someone is always spinning something in America. The truth is 90% of us are getting hosed.
CosmosPrivateer 2 years ago
I'm not sure about this Times report, but the stat addresses hourly labor costs. It cost GM $69 for every hour of labor (including all the things olby mentioned), while Toyota only pays $48 for an hour of labor. This is undoubtedly because of union benefits. The idea is that it is a lot harder to be competitive when you have those numbers against you.
desmundtutu 2 years ago
It is hard to be competitive when you make cars that people don't want to buy because you want to maximize your short term profits.
However when you make products that are in demand paying your employees respectable wages for longterm commitments is not that hard.
killerbandit 2 years ago
It's a misleading comparison, if one doesn't factor in the promises GM made to prior employees when times were booming. It doesn't reflect current operating costs, which is what apologists for greedy, wealthy parasites (aka. "elites") are implying.
KosmicCitizen 2 years ago
correction - should read "reflect current wages" not "operating costs." IOW. the problem here isn't that current GM employees are being paid a LIVING WAGE.
KosmicCitizen 2 years ago
Wow, $28 an hour.
eurohim 2 years ago
If Sorkin has a big problem with union workers, he should start by looking at the people who write him his checks. No not the corporate lobbyists, the NY Times. How do you think all those papers hit the stands by 5 in the morning? Union workers.
Maybe those guys should do us all a favor and rip out the pages with Sorkin's columns. Save us on our garbage pickup
Unions are one of the few avenues to combat the class warfare being waged on the working class. We need to protect them at all cost
route99 2 years ago 3
and non union could deliver papers an hour earlier if needed and at less cost. tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
this is old
sugarpill001 2 years ago
Well done Olbermann, seriously, that's good reportin'.
snipzor 2 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Hell, I'd take 28 dollars an hour, what the hell is the problem? Quit bitching.
Philinspaces 2 years ago
So if you were making $28 and happy with it, but then someone tried to get it cut in half because they said you were making $70 you would be okay with that?
DoctorMeh 2 years ago 6
Hate to break it to you but for 28 dollars an hour they are putting out crap cars. I know they don't design them, but the product is inferior. Many were born into the job. Business as usual has brought them down. Yeah, $28.00 an hour is damn good. Cut it in half? Hmmmm $14.00 an hour for a blue collar job? With medical and pension? Join the real world Doc, some people would fight for the job and live in a trailer if they had to. The whole thing is typical American economics, "Gimme, Gimme".
Philinspaces 2 years ago
You are failing to account for the increase in productivity that these workers are responsible for. $14.00 an hour is enough to get a mortgage on a 1 bedroom condo and own a car.
You can't raise a family, you can't retire, you can't afford health care. 14$ is an entry level wage.
Unless you want to make an argument for a permanent peasant class in America you need to pay full time long term employees more.
killerbandit 2 years ago 2
ok, then don't bitch when your $35,000.00 econo-box falls apart after 8 months. We have a peasant class already, it's called the WalMart /fastfood workforce. Where have you been?
Philinspaces 2 years ago
There's kind of a pissy smugness I see coming from some in the "peasant class", however - as if some of these oft screwed over, low wage workers are happy to see the last "good jobs" fall to the wayside, and see their numbers grow.
It's why the peons can be almost as disgusting as the filthy rich "elites." They're mutual enablers - their shared avarice is what keeps this racket going.
KosmicCitizen 2 years ago 2
Looks like you are trying to have an entirely different conversation, but none of that reasoning makes lying about the workers wage OK.
DoctorMeh 2 years ago 4
Quite
Puabond 2 years ago
That we can agree on. Too long workers have had the ability to demand that employers provide what they want. The unions with their crooked management have stolen from the rank and file so long they are disillusioned. My dad was a laborer all his life and when he lost the sight in his eye the union lied to him and screwed him out of his retirement. He busted his ass and never got the money these auto workers are bitching about. His union did him no good. Hung him out to dry. Good ol' Hoffa
Philinspaces 2 years ago
$28.00 per hour works out to be $58,240.00 per year (gross).
$70.00 per hour equals $145,600 per year (gross).
58K/year is a decent living, but by no means extravagant. I've never worked on an automotive assembly line, but I have a feeling they earn every penny.
Instead of focusing on BS like the $70/hour lie, we should be examining the incomes of the multinational corporate CEOs, and whether they deserve THEIR salaries.
bushputz 2 years ago 11
Well said. To many republicans don't really understand the effort it takes to put in 8 hours a day of manual labour.
killerbandit 2 years ago 2
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You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
Most of us Republicans work hard, put in MORE than 8 hours a day, have had - or still have - manual labor jobs, and look at the common laziness of our liberal co-workers and say to ourselves "No wonder they want a government that will give them everything; they don't do anything for themselves..."
TedinLasVegas 2 years ago
that's not a biased, baseless statement, now is it? i can just as soon go around and say "i work hard for everything i have. but these christian friends of mine spend all day praying to god to just hand it over to them! no wonder they believe in fairy tales, the lazy hypocrites!"
asphyxiafeeling 2 years ago 6
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You're argument doesn't hold water.
A Christian knows that God said that "by the sweat of his brow, man will eat his bread" and "he who will not work, neither should he eat."
A Christian knows that you're supposed to work for what you have and that which you didn't earn, you've stolen.
That's why "liberal Christian" is an oxymoron.
TedinLasVegas 2 years ago
CEO's still the labor of others who work. You are a total moron. The richest people work the least. Jesus was most likely a communist. He cared for the sick and the poor. I wonder what the punishment is for try to misrepresent Christianity to fit your right wing pro business ideology.
atripa645 2 years ago 6
"steal"
atripa645 2 years ago
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CEOs don't work? You're stupid! Lets just see what happens to any company where the CEOs not putting in 10-14 hour days, 6 days a week... it would fail and everyone would lose their jobs.
To call Jesus a communist is to show your ignorance of the Bible. "let every man eat of his own bread..."?
TedinLasVegas 2 years ago
"let every man eat of his own bread".
unless the Bread has be hoarded by people who think they are better than God. watch?v=KmM18riY2po&feature=channel_page
atripa645 2 years ago
You mean the unions that steal from their employers, right?
Those are the only thieves I see in this situaiton.
TedinLasVegas 2 years ago
You think the weekends and the 40hr work week were stolen from the bosses by unions. I guess you would like to see American chattel slavery again or maybe .40 cents an hour. People like you are call fascists.
atripa645 2 years ago
Another liberal argument: extremism.
Unions had/have a purpose. But when unions have so much power that they kill the companies their members work for (as in US Steel, Chrysler, GM, Delta Airlines, Northwestern Airlines, etc.) the balance is lost to the detriment of both management and the labor.
That is where American labor law has been since the 1940s and we see the results of robber-baron unions in the failing of GM and Chrysler.
Will we wake up now or continue the cannibalism?
TedinLasVegas 2 years ago
You are so brainwashed. Union memberships are at some of the lowest levels ever in America. Why don't you look up what your talking about before you make a fool of yourself on the internet.ha ha. Since Reagan there have been laws making it harder to be in a Union. Fox is brainwashing you. They know you are not gonna look anything up for yourself.lol sheep
atripa645 2 years ago
I don't even Fox News, dimwit.
Right, union membership is lowest in decades. Where is membership centralized? Cars, airlines, construction and government.
What branches or parts of our economy are dong the worst and dragging down the rest of us? See the list above.
TedinLasVegas 2 years ago
The private finance sector.
atripa645 2 years ago
the finance sector is run by the NWO that also support both parties and the unions against the people & free enterprise. viva Poncho , down with the federalies!!! tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
this nwo shit has to fucking stop
just like that stupid lizard race...shit needs to stop
the only conspiracy is involved with military cases and so forth....
the only thing that is wrong with the financial sector is GREED and everyone trying to be like gordon gecko....NOT SOME FUCKING BLACK OP PRIVATE SECTOR ORGANIZATION
this isn't the da vinci code.....it's fucking ppl fucking over other ppl
teds31 2 years ago
So you were thinking wallstreet as an example? Or perhaps Wal-mart, or starbucks? I'm not saying alot of unions aren't broken, but being anti-union is no solution. Someone has to represent the worker. Unless by "rest of us" you mean those fattening themselves on Limbaughs tits, who prefer to have others do their thinking for them. Ever consider that if union membership was up, and they had more control, that we might not be in this mess? The pieces fit. What are you proposing exactly?
aknightofswords 2 years ago
First, your assertion that Rush listeners don't think for themselves is an idiotic claim. Surveys, by Pew and Gallup, indicate that Rush has probably the most educated and most well-read audiences around.
Unions, in the modern sense, use government coercion to keep their industries backwards.
The problem with our economy is that the government has already coerced our companies into failure.
More coercion would fix that?
TedinLasVegas 2 years ago
Please refer me to any poll that links people's level of education and Rush listeners.
g4paladin 2 years ago
just a silly debate tactic of casting doubt for lack of proof from a non existing authority
tj5555555 2 years ago
@TedinLasVegas, Could you provide links to these surveys? I Googled it and they don't seem to exist!
artlab 2 years ago 2
Ditto, Ted! We think for ourselves!
getplaning 2 years ago
did you sleep through the last couple of years? you missed the housing boom/bust caused by "too big to fail" banks -- nothing union and none of them are on your list. the heat in vegas must be getting to you.
how old are you? grow up. seriously. all you do is come here night after night and pick fights. go find another sandbox to play bully in.
and when did construction go union anyway? here in florida as with most of the sun belt all the construction is done by illegals.
gisforgary 2 years ago
The Sheet Metal workers union, the Carpenters union, and the Culinary Union are extremely powerful out here.
Thats why our homes are so expensive and fall apart so fast and why our food has risen in price while falling in quality.
TedinLasVegas 2 years ago
do you notice how those leftists freedom of (thier) speech lovers seem to red thumb those comments that they disagree with in an attempt to block out rebuttal. i see that as a major sign of thier weakness of thought knowing thier arguments will not stand up to the light of truth. tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
I also noticed you avoid my comments.
EFAIR3 2 years ago
not true check your in box. tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
is your anti-christ attitude tolerance? and if God does hand it over to them, are you jealous? and don't the Liberals pray to thier gods(uaw & big gov't) to give it to them without working for it? but your gods don't create wealth, they take wealth from hard working taxed to death others by thier income redistribution schemes. Every one believes in something & you believe in big government, your god will fail you. My God never fails. tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
Your God is dead and no one cares.
EuthanizeReligion 2 years ago
you can tell that to Him when you see Him. It is terrible to fall into the hands of The Almighty God after rejecting His only begotten Son as your Lord & Savior. tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
Amen
tj5555555 2 years ago
you just don't understand COST. tj ps & i worked midnight shift at Flint's bumper line. it was good money
tj5555555 2 years ago
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uaw = commies, Yes jerk add it all up and that is what it costs for a union commie worker.
tj5555555 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Take your meds and go back to bed.
integral 2 years ago
Add it all up then divide by the actual beneficiaries of the cost, not just was is convenient.
DoctorMeh 2 years ago
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It's the cost. Everyone that gets a dollar adds to the cost of that one person still working. It's the cost per worker that is the point. Hire a guy to cut your lawn for 20 bucks and when he's 1/2 done he extorts 20 more bucks for his sick brother that can't work. Then when he's 3/4 done he extorts 20 more bucks for his old mother. When he's finished he won't move his truck out of the drive until you pay a 20 buck exit fee. It cost you 80 bucks for a 20 buck job. gonna hire him next week? tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
Nope. An analogy which illustrates your mistake:
Four guys cut yards for $20 each. One dies, two others retire. tj555555 says "That one guy gets paid $80 lets cut his wage."
It's not the cost. Even if you paid the worker $0 you would STILL be paying pensions of retired workers, etc. Sorry charlie.
DoctorMeh 2 years ago 2
Nope back at you. Your cyclical reasoning makes me think i'm talking to a child, so i'll make it simple for you. You bring up extraneous data and ascribe it to the topic incorrectly. The point is that if the UAW forces any company to pay for all the non-productive costs related to getting ONE worker to work, the company goes broke and then no one has a JOB and if it spreads to the entire industry even the Union Bosses & gov't don't get paid and the entire economy fails. Yes you are sorry. tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
And does that make it okay for him to lie about the wage of autoworkers? No. Is the non-productive costs of several workers EQUAL to the non-productive costs of one worker? No. You are dodging.
At no point have I talked about unions being good or bad. I'm talking about telling the truth and pundits bending facts to make a talking point. You rant, name call, and talk about unions and commies. Honestly.
DoctorMeh 2 years ago
Past employees paid into Pension fund. GM spent that money.
atripa645 2 years ago
Yep, that's exactly what everyone is saying. The $70 figure came from taking the past employees cost and adding it on top of the current employees cost.
The end result is a talking point that makes people far removed from the situation go "They get paid three times what I do? Holy crap?!"
DoctorMeh 2 years ago
Right wingers know that these numbers are fudged but they repeat them over and over. Win they get caught in one lie they just move right on to the next. Then they go to church. lol
atripa645 2 years ago
He meant to say, Including all benefits, each employee costs 70 dollars, decided by the union of workers.
Onompoly 2 years ago
sort of like that un-locked lock box al gore was talking about for social security that the government spent but the government is a mega crook and makes GM look like a punk. So whiz brain if you can see that it's wrong for GM to do it on a smaller scale, what's the matter with you for not seeing it's 10 times worse on the government scale. That IS the point. Corporate screw-ups are bad Government screw-ups are worse but you ding dongs want to give more power to the bigger crooks. dah!!! tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
On the other hand, if you hire people to make your product, being made at an almost 80% profit margin (according to an IRS business statistic) at the same time you receive tax deductions because you provide jobs to the community. In a system that rewards the wealthy and shifts the tax burden to the lower middle class, you can hardly complain about giving your workers the fruits of their labor.
Wage grades DO NOT match the inflation rate
Try again
Pleblian 2 years ago
what does match inflation then?
teds31 2 years ago
Your reasoning is so absolutely twisted here it's not hard to believe you're a fascist prick.
Cutting your lawn produces no revenue other than your own personal satisfaction your 80 dollars lawn cutting scenario is absurd.
Pleblian 2 years ago
No your gona get off your lazy ass and do yourself
Pleblian 2 years ago
so what's it to you mr. canadian you've left your socialist nation to wreck ours. then where will you run to for a JOB? Get back over the border and quit subverting my nation to be as bad as your's is for oportunity of the individual. Canada the Beautiful should be ashamed of you. You are nothing but a commie subversive, & we know it. Viva Poncho! tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
This is your argument?!
Canada has more liberties then you can dream up and pays far less taxes then most Americans. Not to mention we have something to show for the taxes we do pay.
The differences between the US and Canada is, people like you, (the christ cultist), are ostracized and have very little say in public forum. Our system of education promotes critical thinking that neutralizes your ideology.
The republicans have created more social programs, it makes Karl Marx cringe.
Try again
Pleblian 2 years ago
you demonstrate that the real issue of the conflict of ideas is one of Christ vs anti-christ. Also if the Canadian military is so great why would you serve 10 years in the US military, as your page claims, was it for the pay and VA educational benefits? Also please wait in line for any needed major health care need to be provided by your "Cheeper' system. US Military take an oath to defend the US Constitution from all enemies foreign & domestic. You dishonor that oath or lied. tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
The only conflict that exist, are the cult worms in your head, there was no christ for there to be an anti-christ. Stick to Santa he's much more relevant.
My ten years spent in the military were and still are, a cherished event in my life time, I've learned allot. The problems came after I got out and looked around at an insane American society which made me ask myself just what the hell the was I defending.
I lived up to my end of the oath, were where you?
Pleblian 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
been there & done that before you did. I lived up to my oath & did not , and will not abandon my nation, and will continue to defend The Constitution of The United States against all enemies foreign & domestic. Jesus Christ is King of Kings & Lord of Lords. Every knee shall bow & every tongue confess that now, or in eternity. tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
So tj, what does that say about your forefathers who abandoned their old nation, to come here? did they live up to their oath? You know, the ones that fled from religious tyranny.
Pleblian 2 years ago
You mean those that fled from tyranny so that they could freely worship God. They said we have no king but The Lord Jesus Christ. My forefathers were those that abandon a heavy handed oppressor with an excessive central control of thier lives. The european based NWO has been dooging thier tracks since. We threw off thier shackles once and we'll do it again so help me God. tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
Gee, I thought McCarthyism died out in the 1950's..
Guess you missed the memo.
acseeley 2 years ago 2
Communism didn't die it just mutated into both of the political parties (D's & R's) McCarthy has only been on vacation. Guess you missed that memo. Oh yeah, he's comming back and bringing Poncho Villa' & Dirty Harry & Judge Roy Bean with him. Gonna hang all the bad guys and then give em a fair trial ,That's Bubba Law tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
LOL, so you have your money on a dead Mexican outlaw, a fictional movie character, and racist and biggotted rogue justice of the peace? Thanks, but I'll stick with reality.
I am so glad we live in a country where "bubba law" is a thing long past and we are now innocent until proven guilty. But hey, you can always move to a country like Somalia where bubba law is still in effect, unfortunately you would be the "chinaman" in the equation.
acseeley 2 years ago 2
the spirit, of that dead mexican was for the underdog, the fictional character was against the criminal and the judge was for justice. We all must stand for the "chinaman" in this equation for if we do not who will be left to stand when they come for us? Face it the UAW & the gov't do not make jobs except by the money they take from working people. Aside from that please answer how can liberals being so against big business be so in favor of big government that is business-like on steroides.
tj5555555 2 years ago
"...how can liberals being so against big business be so in favor of big government..."?
You don't seem to grasp one of the basic properties of the political spectrum. Wikipedia has an excellent description.
DoctorMeh 2 years ago
Union Bosses are still Bosses that take so much from the company that it fails, then no one has a JOB. tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
This is incorrect. If this were true then all unionized companies would be failures, and that simply doesn't reflect reality.
acseeley 2 years ago
Nope, some haven't driven their industry into failure,,,, YET.
TedinLasVegas 2 years ago 2
So we should be on the lookout for the failure of:
UPS, Kroger, All six major Hollywood, studios, AT&T, Verizon, Anheuser Busch
Exxon, NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, Boeing, GE,
Kraft Foods, General Mills, General Dynamics, Harley-Davidson, Dow Chemical, Lockheed Martin, Merck, News Corp, Kellogg's, Hershey's, Pepsico, The list goes on...
All are unionized and all profitable and doing quite well.
How's that foot taste?
acseeley 2 years ago
First, as long as individual players are allowed individual contracts - sports and Hollywood don't count.
As for the others, some are so vital (food, for example) that they will survive until a non-union competitor comes along (WalMart, for example) which - because their costs are more reasonable - can sell for less. Time will tell.
TedinLasVegas 2 years ago
they've killed the biggest & one of the oldest the rest will follow as they seize the means of production. Russia took about 80 years to be killed by communism so that should be close to the life cycle of unionized control.
tj5555555 2 years ago
delicious!
DoctorMeh 2 years ago
given time they'll kill them all just like GM
tj5555555 2 years ago
it took 50 years for the unions & over regulation from gov't to kill the biggest private sector employer. Given just a little more time the commies can also kill the rest of meaningful private sector JOB making companies, GM was just the start. They took out the biggest the rest will go down easy. The biggest enemy of free enterprise is the Mega Federated Centralized Government Bosses. So keep sucking up to the nanny state until nanny eats you for lucch. That's serf cannibalism. You want that?tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
So who's fault is it that GM is bankrupt?
Did the government make vehicles that no one wanted to buy?
You say a lot but it seems to not have much substance.
EFAIR3 2 years ago 2
1 evertbody's fault. 2 now THEY will make cars that no one wants as government motors. 3 and you don't say much at all. ps i've run out the 500 character count quite often pointing out substantive clarifications of errored opinions held by argumentative ideologues and still do i search for reasonable rebuttal of the facts. Also consider that due to EPA manipulations all new autos available to the common buyer have been inundated with Toxic Formaldehyde & benzene. = cancerous autos. tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
1. In the 5 or so months since the first bailout your blaming the government for GM's product line, or the lack there of please be clear.
2. when were these EPA standards you refer too put in effect? Please provide a site for my reference.
3. As for the rest of your comments or rebuttal(s) they are are weak at best.
EFAIR3 2 years ago 2
ok friend here we go again, First of all you need not ascribe your point #1 to anything i have claimed. You must look back several years to observe the finger prints of government's manipulative regulations all over the manufacturing sector, not just 5 or so months ago. #2 when you ask, 1947 and you can do your own homework. #3 that's your opinion and you're stuck with it. tj
tj5555555 2 years ago
I'm simply challenging your point of view, and seeing what you can do about it. Will you offer some type of solution/idea, or will you whine and moan about how America is not how it use to be in the 50-60s. And I'm quite please with my opinion.
E
EFAIR3 2 years ago
there is no solution for GM. It's too late for them & thier employees. There's no going back to the 50-60 era either. My concern is that the USA not advance to a mushy euro socialist feckless entity. To only challenge others points of view how will that gain anything? My basic suggestion to restore our nation in purely secular terms would make it manditory that every citizen study the US Constitution, Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence. People must know where they come from. TJ
tj5555555 2 years ago
Billo needs a pillo to cure his illo so he can stop spewing his swillo. what a dildo
Plutonwolf 2 years ago 7
I meant Billo The Doctor Killer
WKaliberr 2 years ago 4
Billo The Baby Killer
WKaliberr 2 years ago 2
Olbermann is Great.
zeroepyon 2 years ago 13