Introduction to the Cumbric Revival - The Dragon's Voice!

[stecymru14]

Sadly, Cumbric is merely a slight variant of Old Welsh (hencimraic). If Cumbric is to be revived, learn some Old Welsh.

If we're reviving Cumbric, shouldn't we be reviving Old Devonian (Dewnansek Koth) too?

[Ealasaid17]

I'm looking for the dialects of my English forefathers and I'm wondering where (in modern England ) would Cumbric been spoken?

[cumbricrevival]

By large, Cumbric was spoken in the south of Scotland and the north of England, the latter so far down as the Mersey (i.e. draw a line across the north of England through Liverpool and upwards ... but it was also spoken a wee bit southwards of that line as well)

[annbretagne]

Fascinating stuff. Good luck!

[annbretagne]

Fascinating stuff. I didn't realise there were so many Celtic language enthusiasts out there. I'd never made the connection between Cumbria/Cumbric/Cwmru/Cambrian­. Maybe the similarities various people have made comments about confirm a common ancestral language?? I live in Brittany, and the poor old Bretons are struggling with French chauvinism, although there is one article in Breton (with glossary) in a monthly mag here. Keep up the struggle!

[dmsparr]

I'm from the South of Britain, so I'm still looking for my native language, good luck with your book for the northern peoples.

[cumbricrevival]

Thanks!

By all accounts the peoples all over Britain could understand each other, so your native language is going to be some sort of dialect of Welsh anyway.

As all Welsh-speakers are generally bilingual in their own Welsh dialects, you might as well get a head-start by starting to learn Welsh (from Wales), Kernic (from Cornwall), or Cumbric (from The Old North), now!

You can pick the closest (Welsh or Kernic) or the sexiest (Cumbric)!

Best wishes, once you start its a one-way train ride!

[Brythonek]

The Ancient Britons will rise again! As was prophesied by Merlin! :=) Good to see that the tribes are still there, albeit weakened and dispersed, but we are still there!!! KERNOW HAG KEMBRY HAG BRETEN VYGHAN BYS VYKKEN!

[cumbricrevival]

Its fabulous to see you writing in Kernewek, and although I don't yet understand it, I'm starting to see patterns!

What you say about the ancient Britons is of course true, I don't even see the ancient Britons and Britons being two different groups, we Britons are merely the descendants of our ancient forebears, so when I use the word 'ancient' with the word 'Britons', I always use a lower case "a" (unless at start of sentence), they are ancient Britons, not Ancient Britons ~ a clever subtlety!

[Brythonek]

Skryf dhym in Gumbrek! :)

[cumbricrevival]

My Book is being published on 4 May 2009, so stay tuned for further information!

It is 440 pages long, 5 x 8 inch format, available in soft-cover, hard-cover, and image-wrap, consisting of over 100,000 words!

[cumbricrevival]

I've just had the proof copy back from the printers, its fabulous! So we are on track for launch next week ~ but perhaps Tuesday instead of Monday, as its a UK Bank Holiday on Monday!

[LLanidloesywddar]

Well ya know, the picts' language may have had origins that were pre-celtic, it seems quite likely, no-one's really sure. The original Britains, pre celtic people may have spoken a language which had an influence on Pictish, but not on the other celtic languages. It's something that baffles linguists.

[hawkofmay9]

There are a lot of place names up in former 'Pictland' that begin with 'Aber' (as in Aberdeen) with the meaning of 'mouth of a river'. This seems to suggest a link to a Brittonic language.

[Sc0userLFC]

It was Pictish not Cumbric that was spoken in Scotland.

[cumbricrevival]

Hehe, is this you Séamus?

The Picts were, by large, north of the Antonine Wall, and it is absolutely certain that Cumbric was spoken south of the Antonine Wall, from East to West.

For a start, the Gododdin of Din Eidyn (Edinburgh) spoke Cumbric, as did the Cymry of the Kingdom of Strathclyde, which is centred upon Glasgow.

Your comment about Pictish is correct in so far as north of the wall, but in all likelihood it was a Brythonic dialect that was either Cumbric, or very close to Cumbric.

[Sc0userLFC]

Ah very well, but it's been proved that the Picts weren't a seperate people to the Britons in England and Wales.

[stecymru14]

Mutation after 'hen' therefore 'Hen Ogledd'

Mutation after 'o' therefore 'o Reged'

Da iawn - Cwmbraic am Byth

[cumbricrevival]

That would depend upon the dialect, and in White Cumbric "Yr Hen Gogledd" and "o Rheged" are correct ~ its more of a case of where you take a comprehensive cross-section of the dialect, so I can see your perspective. Also, there are so many different dialects being reverse engineered right across Yr Hen Gogledd, that each is right in their own respects.

Good to see you back online, I noticed that you were away for a few months!

[Rossdhu16]

This opens up so much new learning. Thanks for posting this and I will look forward to seeing your new videos.

[cumbricrevival]

Delighted! I'm just entering the pre-publishing stage, so it shan't be long! Weeks instead of months!

[ceirdwyn002]

I will be interested to ead your book when your finished. It was the tales of the Gododdin, rheged and Wales that got me into history. I am also glad that you have separated the Scoti as not many realise they were invaders to the north.

kudos for the song as well x

[cumbricrevival]

Oh thank you! One thing that interests me very much is the abundance of Cumbric place-names right across the whole of the old north ~ they imply that if we remove all of the Scoti and English language veneers, that Cumbric is the native language of millions in southern Scotland and northern England!

Btw, if you are interested in the Gododdin, don't forget to look at the history of Gwynedd in the north-west of Wales, it was settled by some Gododdin kicking out the Irish pirates in the area!

[KaaVap]

This seems pointless, why should the North of England (formerly Elmet, Ebrauc, Gododdin & Rheged) learn a dead language and become victim complex nursing jokes like the SNPers and other pseudo-mythological "ethnic" nationalists.

[cumbricrevival]

Cumbric's not dead and survives in a single, unique, 'plantation' of the language and which is comprehensively documented: its a remarkable discovery and because of it, I think that my book will do very well.

Btw, the Cumbric name for Cumberland is Rheged, and that's not dead either!

In answer to your question "Why?" ~ quite simply, it is our native language.

As for the jokes ~ it would be hard for them to hold water if they are based upon the information that you have been referring to.

[LLanidloesywddar]

As in reply to KaaVap. It may be pointless to you, but there are other people out there, and if they make the decision to learn a non-dead language then they can do so.

[LLanidloesywddar]

Indeed we do! I do try and say as much Cumbric as possible, I spend a lot of time looking at The Industrial Archaology of the lakes, mining in particular, so in a way continually being in contact with the mountains when I visit these places gets me thinking about the origins of their names. By the way, do you think the Cumbric word 'du' would be pronounced more like it is in modern welsh, or more like it is in cornish?

[cumbricrevival]

I'm very taken with the mines around Thirlmere, also the iron age finds around Harrison Stickle!

On the "du", that is a fabulous question ~ but, as it touches on a core point of my work, I'll answer this one privately!

[LLanidloesywddar]

Ok thanks, =D I live near Carnforth, other than the town itself there aren't many celtic placenames in my area but it'd still be interesting to see if we can pull out any evidence on the variety of Cumbric spoken here. So, places with a high-number of Cumbric names, best I can think of is The Penruddock, Blencathra, and upper Eden Valley regions; would it perhaps be reasonilbe to say that Cumbric died out in these regions more recently than in others in Cumbria.

[cumbricrevival]

Although I'm from Cumberland - which in Cumbric I still call Rheged - I try to stand back so that I can see the whole of Yr Hen Gogledd ~ and in that, I'd say that Cumberland/Westmoreland/Lancas­hire North-of-the-Sands was perhaps the most recent ~ but don't forget, the placenames (etc) never died out themselves, so you've the scope to say that Cumbric was (severely!) marginalised but never actually died out completely ~ the placenames have been spoken every day in the last 1000 years 'til today!

[LLanidloesywddar]

Thanks =D

So, black cumbric was an earlier form? Do the rules of white cumbric fit the palcename evidence, so final 'd' becoming 'th' - coed - caith etc?

[cumbricrevival]

Black Cumbric depends upon the actual material you are working on. The single dialect of White Cumbric follows a timeline from when the community migrated from The Old North, until (I'd say) 1588, so the actual version that we pick up would depend upon when along the time-line that one selects a comprehensive version of it. Yes, the place-name evidence generally stacks up but largely assumes that spellings that we see today were written down "not by Cumbric Speakers" but by Anglo-Saxon scribes

[cumbricrevival]

On this latter point, the difference between White Cumbric and Black Cumbric is that the former doesn't require you to make a decision one way or the other in your dialect of Black Cumbric, (such as how you interpret the final 'd'), and my suggestion to the Cumbric speaking community will be that they pick up White Cumbric (as it is fully comprehensive) and then accomodate all of the lessons of Black Cumbric as they become known, essentially migrating from White to Black as Black reveals itself.

[LLanidloesywddar]

Oh, these dialects of Cumbric, have you been able to group them to different regions of the north west?

[cumbricrevival]

My main work is in White Cumbric, and I have to say, most of the work has been done by people who didn't realise what they were looking at, centuries ago ~ White Cumbric is a complete dialect that can be picked straight up. But the work that I see you are doing seems to be a "Black Cumbric" dialect. Although I want to keep my cards close to my chest at this stage, my first book is an overview but the actual White Cumbric dictionary and grammer list following closely behind.

[cumbricrevival]

Having said that, the reason why the White Cumbric texts survived was that a group of Cumbric speakers from The Old North moved "en-masse" somewhere (this is expounded in the book, and the reason why the documents were miscategorised is that later acedemics overlooked the matter that the original community were Cumbric speakers who had migrated from The Old North) ~ any dialect of Cumbric in the actual Old North (i.e. such as yours) is what I call Black Cumbric.

[LLanidloesywddar]

I'm a little way off yet, but I shouldnt take too much longer, I've been busy of late. Out of interest, in your book, what spelling sytem have you been using?

[cumbricrevival]

The odd thing is that the stuff that I'm looking at was probably mis-categorised in the 16th century so although the early stuff (12th and 13th century) has the usual "6" instead of the now familiar "w" in modern Welsh, etc, but later work on it (as mis-categorised but around the 17th, 18th & 19th centuries) is in the familiar modern Welsh character set.

[MakeToastNotWar]

I'm studying Taliesin and Aneirin in Welsh at the moment, so I find his is very exciting. (Although I'm a super proud Welshie and have some selfish mixed feelings about the whole thing, admittedly.) I'd love to have a look at a Cumbraic dictionary. I'm compiling a Brythonic one at the moment and only have one or two words from this language :(

*Subscribes*

[cumbricrevival]

I've also read your channel page and its absolutely fabulous to see that you want to learn Breton and Cornish as well - the sooner the better, because if you do, think how useful that you'd be in any general Brythonic revival! On the Cumbric side, there are two major dialects, which as an author I have had some liberty in calling White Cumbric and Black Cumbric, and without giving the game away as my book is close to publishing, you've likely come across some White Cumbric without realising it!

[MakeToastNotWar]

Learning Breton and Cornish is so difficult with the amount of resources that are available! Although I might put them on hold when I get more info about Cwmbraic =P It's all just so interesting :)

[cumbricrevival]

Once Cwmbraic kicks off, I want to arrange some European Union funding to try and get some common materials on all of the Celtic languages, all in English, French, and Spanish, to cater for those who wish to learn them but who already have one of these three mother tongues.

But I admire your enthusiasm, keep up with the Breton and Kernic if you can as the early bird gets the juiciest worms!

[LLanidloesywddar]

O da iawn/Ó da jown! I'm writing a dictionry in Cumbric at the moment, let me know what you think when I put it on the web. Have you been using it as a spoken language with other speakers?

[cumbricrevival]

Oh I'm excited, how far off are you finishing it?

Yes, the point that we are labouring at the moment is the fidelity of the sound of the language, the language constructs, and grammar, but having difficulty with the mutations which if taking words from Welsh, need to be reverse engineered. But my present focus has a lot to do with the stem words that make up the language itself, as the stems are by large free of the mutations and this is a particular advantage. Nearly 10,000 (I think) so far.