The point is God does not want all men (individually) to be saved, otherwise they would be saved. Salvation has nothing to do with the choice of man. . Gods free sovereign Gace has decided salvation apart from anything in, of or by the recipiant.
If God WANTS all men to be saved, then why doesn't He save all men? Because He doesn't WANT to violate their freedom? But that means He WANTS something other than all men to be saved, namely that they choose Him which disqualifies billions. But that's what He WANTS.
human knowledge. Let the Holy Spirit of God reveal it to you. It will happen if you take a step to repentance and receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour. Acts 2:38- Repent & be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit
By this man's logic all the epistles should be removed from the Bible. After all, they are addressed to specific persons or churches. They can't be meant for us to read.
By this man's logic all the epistles should be removed from the Bible. After all, they are addressed to specific persons or churches. They can't be meant for us to read.
The Father teaches that many can't understande the Truth because they (calvinists) are trapped by the god of this world. And, as we can see, just like many religious fanatics defend their religion doctrines like a starving dog defends a dried bone - with hate (they have no true love in itself), without the use of reason (do not know the truth and only have inaccurate parameters), without consideration (do not listen to draw conclusions, but look for words that possser used against the speaker).
Rightly Divide the Word of Truth........I call friend whom I share the Truth, is what HahYAHAsherHAhYAh =I Am that I Am, Elyon=Master God says..........you are a liar! He died for ALL and if they reject Him, whoa to Him that does!!!
The Creator can save everbody, but, because you probably (even if you don't confirm that) have the will that all that are sinfull go to hell, you embraced a doctrine that express that to feel more confortable.
So, to limit the reach of the sacrifice of Chist (the devils dream) the possibilit to chose MUST be removed. Then, calvinists had to face the fact that the sin must have to be "God's" will - all that to keep the idea of a weak sacrifice...
G3956 πᾶς pas (pas`) (including all the forms of declension) adj.
1. all, any, every, the whole
[apparently a primary word]
KJV: all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever
[?]
Now you have a chance to choose your path (choose?!?)...
All means all there 'cause that "people" means local (the ones that were there to be baptized), like all people in front a chrch waiting to the doors to be opened.
@doctorh2005 Do you think that the word "all" that is used in Scriptures with more then one sense can help you in a different verse? Really? That's justa a poor attempt to commit a sophism.
Please, think a little more and you'll see that words like time, son, father, ALL, may have different sense in Scripture, but when YOU say ALL/MANY sinned YOU mean no exception (to defend calvinism) and when YOU say ALL/MANY man are able to become safe, YOU mean just a few (to defend calvinism). That's NUTS.
@doctorh2005 You have the power to enter your father's house, but he gave you some "time restriction".
So, you still have the power to enter your father's house, but if you do not get there at the time he told you the door would be unlocked, well, will never get in there.
Look, your way to see the Scriptures is distorted from the begining, so, everthing after that will be like what you're trying to make me "understand".
There's NO unresistible grace, 'cause grace is grace. That's not a cmmand!
@doctorh2005 So you are NOT lookin for the entire context of the Scriptures, but only saying that all Scripture confirms what you're trying to prove.
The word ALL in the context in the verse you have in mind to is used to condemn ALL and to absolve ALL; the same to the word MANY is imediately followed by another MANY. So, they must have to be at the same sense.
But not for "human intelligence without the Holy Spirit" followers...(Jm 3:13-18)
BTW, can you make John Calvin fit into these verses?
@doctorh2005 So you can read this verse: "and he--he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world, (1Jo 2:2)" and say that WHOLE WORLD doesn't mean EVERYBODY.
WOW! That's what I was talking about when I said that nobody can SEE The TRUTH thru another man, but The Savior. If you keep believing in all these lies you'll NOT be able to understand LOVE, but only PUNISHMENT.
Calvinist "GOD" is cruel and hides HIS will, givo no chance for all, etc. etc. etc.
@marcelobetel Calvinisms approach to hermeneutics is very similar to that of the Jehovahs Witnesses. They apply meanings to words and verses to suit their theology. eg the word COSMOS "world" to mean "world of the elect" Treating the concept of faith as a work when it is actually a believing and receiving concept. God says believe and receive I say Ï believe" and God says "then you have received"
@marcelobetel In 1John 2:2 it says Jesus is the propitiation for our sins and ... for the whole world (Cosmos) or in Calvinist hermeneutics "the world of the elect" Now if the Calvinist case is correct then we have a dilemma when we get to verse 15 of the same chapter ie 1Jn 2:15 Do not love the WORLD (COSMOS - WORLD OF THE ELECT) OR THE THINGS OF "THE WORLD OF THE ELECT" He is telling believers not to love the elect??????
A great point, but they don't read The Scripture - they have a spirit to interpret The Scriptures for them. Sadly, this spirit is not The Holy Spirit, but the same that inspired more them 40.000 different doctrines over the world, so far, like jeohovas witnesses, catholics, kardecists, mormons, and list goes on and on...
Believe in a Creator that IS LOVE and don't give a chance for HIS OWN creature made HIS "ambassador" on Earth is to believe in a greek mithology figure.
@rplende Totally agree. But they have a stupid answer that they acept like an aspirin. They say that the word "world" hame almost 14 different meanings in The Scripture.
So, they stick their heads into the ground and sing that God made the sin and made manking to sin and go to hell untill you give up and go to talk about The Savior's LOVE to who's interested...
They should realize that that actually IS harden the heart.
@rplende Totally agree. But they have a stupid answer that they acept like an aspirin. They say that the word "world" have almost 14 different meanings in The Scripture.
So, they stick their heads into the ground and sing that God made the sin and made manking to sin and go to hell untill you give up and go to talk about The Savior's LOVE to whom's interested...
They should realize that that actually IS harden the heart.
@doctorh2005 Don't tray to defend what is indefensible.
You are tryingo to "twist" the sense of the word "all" t defend calvinism, that's all, and you know that all - (blink).
You know that The Savior gave HIS life for all mankind, even that many will not receive HIM like The Savior.
If you have a brther you can see that some cild receive more gifts from his parents 'cause that kid use to be obedient. But those parents could give all the same gifts if all used to be obedient.
The dictionary use in this video IS NOT Strong's one, like they expose, as fundamental part of this statement. The dictionary used is the Thayer's one.
And Joseph Henry Thayer was one of those that passed his life learning in Harvard Divinity School about calvinism and unitarianism for a long time, you know?
/// Joseph Henry Thayer was one of those that passed his life learning in Harvard Divinity School about calvinism and unitarianism for a long time, you know? ///
Thats absolutely irrelevant.
Thats called the Genetic Fallacy - and is a false arguement.
@atamotua64 john 3;16 it's only twisted by people who do not read it in context of the entire chapter and this is the judgement that THE LIGHT CAME INTO THE WORLD BUT PEOPLE LOVED THE DARKNESS RATHER THAN THE LIGHT BECAUSE THEIR DEEDS WERE EVIL
@atamotua64 How? It truly seems to me that synergist are the ones twisting John 3:16 into making it claim something that is not there (like 'whosoever' meaning that man actually has the capacity in himself to believe in Christ). However, monogist tend see right through this tradition of man, since the word "whosoever" is NOT found in the greek, but rather it is "pas ho pisteuōn", which simply means all the believing ones or everyone believing... Also, in what way have we twisted God's character
Y go to such lengths to put God in a bad light? Cause that's what predestination does. It makes God evil saying that God made evil creatures to disobey Him & go against His Ruling. This is a pagan & evil idea of Thesis & Antithesis, making God the Grand Puppetier who PLAYS both sides of good & evil so that in the end He still comes out on top. It's saying God is both good & evil, which is not only False, it's Impossible; cant be both, & we cant serve two masters. This is twisted guys.
again he who has ears to hear let him hear unless GOD calls with the internal call we will not we cannot hear nor would we be able to respond since you think that you saved yourself by making a choice I see that you did not need GOD to save you when GOD calls HE also provides faith so that you not only respond but do the things HE want you to do for without faith it is impossible to please GOD I feel sorry for you if you think you chose GOD
@patriotsfan1379 Of course I didn't save myself. The blood of Christ saves us when we believe and obey the gospel. Rom 6: 17 " But God be thanked that ye were slaves of sin but ye have OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered to you." And how was that doctrine delivered to us? By preaching and teaching Rom. 10:14-17...how shall they hear without a preacher... I'm finished with this arguing. Adios
@horseman528 does that belief comes of your own doing? because if it does than it's not biblical ephesians 2 says for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves it is a gift of GOD so the only reason anyone obey it's because GOD gives faith otherwise we would not we would not even believe but not according to you you think you have it in you not only to believe but also to obey what pride you have what self dependency you have
@patriotsfan1379 Belief comes from hearing God's Word. I did not make up the Word of God so it is not my own doing that creates belief but it is by hearing and believeing the Word of God. Rom. 10:17 Now faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. According to John 1:1 The Word is God. So it is God that causes my heart to believe. But He gives this opportunity to anyone who will listen and believe. In Matt. 13 did the sower discriminate as to where the seed was sown?
@horseman528 for HE says to Moses I will have mercy on who I will have mercy so than it depends not on human WILL or desire but on GOD to have mercy SO THEN HE has mercy on whomever HE wills and HE hardens whomever HE wills you will say why does HE still find fault/ BUT WHO ARE YOU TO ARGUE WITH YOUR MAKER WHO MAKES OUT OF ONE LUMP ONE VESSEL FOR MERCY AND ANOTHER FOR WRATH
@horseman528 there are hundreds of thousands who hear the word and do not respond are you implying thatyou are more honorable or more obidient or that your heart is better or that you are smarter cause you responded and others didn't? cause if you are you are boasting and you are saying that you don't need grace that you only needed to hear the word and than you believed the bible says the natural man cannot understand the things of GOD are you saying that that does not apply to you?
You calvinists take delight in that you think God has predestined most of mankind to be lost. God has foreknowledge of what choices men will make. Since God already knows what men will do, he may harden those who have already chosen evil anyway and he favors those who He knows will obey him. Rom :16-18. Who did God foreknow in Rom. 8:29? He foreknew who would come to Him and who wouldn't but it is a choice. God does not tempt men with evil. James 1:13
@horseman528 First of all, (John 6:65) Jesus states "...no one can come to Me unless it has been GRANTED him from the Father.” and “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." (John 6:37). So it isn't our will to come to Christ, but it is the Father's will that He has mercy on whom He wishes (Romans 9:18).For we were once "dead in trespasses and sin" who "cannot please God" and was "hostile toward God" who "did not seek Him". [cont]
@xWhiteLightning I certainly don't know everything and God will judge me one day. If you're right in your interpretation of the Word then God has spiritually tied a rope around the majority of mankind and thrown them into hell thru no will of their own. Freewill has to be correct or otherwise God has forced men to choose evil. James 1:13-15 How can that be? Rom 1:18-25 If you're right, then the bible contradicts itself.
@horseman528 First of all, it seems your interpretation of what Calvinism actually teaches is off. We don't believe God forces anyone to do evil--in fact that goes against God's Holiness...but rather man has CHOSE to sin against Him on our own "free-will", and we by nature are children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3) that turn from Light (John 3:19-20), and who do NOT seek after Him (Romans 3:11). Also, the ONLY reason why people end up in Hell, is because they're guilty of sin and unbelief. [cont]
@xWhiteLightning So now your saying one does have freewill to chooses sin but no one has the power to choose to be saved. Theres no middle road. If man can only choose sin but not salvation then there is no choice but one. Its like someone offering a person the choice of the right or left but saying you can't go right unless I let you but you can choose the left way without my permission. So the person has no choice but to go left unless he's given permission to go right. flawed logic.
@horseman528 Actually, what you said was correct and NOT "flawed logic" at all, but rather it's biblical doctrine. Jesus explains the will of the unconverted man in (John 3:19-20) VERY clearly, and also the reason why we turn from Light. Paul makes it clear in (Romans 3:10-18) that we had no good in us, we didn't seek God, and we feared Him not. For we were dead in trespasses and sin and could not please God on our own, for we were slaves to sin (John 8:34), who by nature were children of wrath!
@horseman528 Why do you even think Jesus said "no one can come to me unless it has been GRANTED him from the Father."Jesus here is saying that there is an INABILITY on man's part in choosing Christ on our own will. For He says in (John 6:37) that the reason we come to Christ, is because the Father has given us to Him (and this was all God's free choice). For the Father giving us to the Son PRECEDES us coming to Christ...Also--read (Genesis 6:5) & (Romans 8:7-8) again to see the wickedness of man
@xWhiteLightning What does "no one can come to me unless it has been granted him from the Father" really mean? Does it not mean that thru God giving his only begotten son on the cross to die for our sins that He grants all men the possibility to be saved if they choose to come to Him? Acts 17:30 In other words, God gave or granted all men the ability to be saved thru the sacrifice of His Son. However, many are blinded by the god of this world thru their OWN love of the world and sin
@horseman528 I believe what (John 6:65) means is exactly what it implies...and that is man cannot come to Christ unless the Father gives us to Him first. And all those whom He has drawn to Himself, shall be raised up on the last day (John 6:44), because those who choose Christ do so because God first chose them (John 6:37, John 15:16, Romans 9:11, etc). Secondly, if Jesus simply made salvation a "possibility", then it would make it man's choice, rather than salvation solely being a work of God.
@horseman528 Secondly, if Jesus really did die for every-single individual that ever lived, as you assert, then does that mean God tries to save all but fails on most? Why didn't God send the Amalekites any prophets if Christ died for them, but rather God commanded their annihilation (1 Samuel 15:3), did God try and save them? Did Christ die for the Antichrist, or even Judas Iscariot? Or what about those prepared beforehand for destruction (Romans 9:22)? I believe Jesus died for His people/sheep
@xWhiteLightning Who can know the mind of God? Can the finite understand the infinite? I don't understand why God does everything He does. Nor do I believe that man's ability to choose takes away from God's soveringty.I do know that God looks on the heart and not the outer man. I will leave you with this thought. Whose love is more precious? One who is programmed to love you or one who chooses to love you? Does God want a robot or a free moral agent who chooses Him of their own volition?
@horseman528 First of all, your last two questions don't really make much sense to me, since nobody freely chooses God nor is there any good in man apart from God granting them a new heart. I believe that we were once dead in trespasses and a slave to sin, who's heart turns from and rebels against the Holy God. But by His mercy and love, He has chosen multitudes of people from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation, and freely grants them eternal life and every spiritual blessing in Christ.
@horseman528 If you oppose such biblical truth, then I can't help you. How do you not see God's AMAZING love & mercy towards unjust sinners who deserve hell and wrath, but rather God raises them up into glory on the last day and keeps them free from sin and death in Righteousness. WHY are you so concerned with man's heart, but deny God's truely sovereign free-will by electing whom He wills. Don't you know that man's heart is deceitful and wicked above all things, who can know it (Jeremiah 17:9)?
@horseman528 Now, I will agree with you on this point, and that is that nobody can understand the mind of God--for His ways are not our ways & thoughts are not our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9). But what I will put my trust in is God's revealed word through The Bible, so I won't have my emotions get in the way of interpreting Scripture. Also, since you brought up "programmed" and "God not wanting robots", what do you think about angels? Did they chose to love God first, or is it the other way around?
@xWhiteLightning My last question to you. If one cannot choose to be saved then how does one know they are saved? Do they sit around waiting for God to give them some miraculous experience? I do see God's love and mercy towards sinners and in fact I have felt that love. As far as angels go, I have never seen one although I thought I heard their singing one morning and why am I concerned about man's heart? Read Rom 10:10-11. I don't deny God's soveringty.
@horseman528 Well, the way people know that they are saved is if they put their trust & faith in the Lord Jesus Christ & repent of sin. For God is the one who gives us a new heart and puts a new spirit in us that yearns for Him. Now I do believe that Christians choose Christ since they love Him, but the question is did we choose Him first, or did He choose us from the beginning. Rom. 10:9-11, I believe refers to those who are already chosen and born-again, since their hearts are clearly renewed.
@horseman528 As for angels, my point was that do you think that they are some "programmed robots"? Personally, I believe angels likewise have a will and are free to express their desires as they please...
@xWhiteLightning I don't think angels are programmed robots as evidenced by Rev.12:7-9 where it says Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven due to their rebellion. Nor do I think humans are programmed robots but free moral agents with the ability to choose good or evil. Gen 3:22, Deut.30:15-19 "See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil."..."I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life...
@horseman528 Well, again I must say that humans don't have the ability to choose good because that concept totally contradicts verses such as (Romans 8:7-8, Romans 3:10-18, John 6:65, John 3:19-20, etc., etc). Also, Deut. 30:19, I see this as God speaking to the people of Israel's hearts, concerning their desires for life(holiness) and death(sin). He commanded them to CHOOSE life, in the way we are commanded to preach repentance and the gospel to everyone throughout the world.
@horseman528 It is true that we are suppose to CHOOSE life, but as it says in Proverbs 20:24 "Man’s steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?" and also (Jeremiah 10:23) "I know, O LORD, that a man’s way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps." So again, I find in numerous amounts of scripture that salvation is solely upon God's decree and grace--for it does not depend on the man who wills or runs, but on God who has mercy (Romans 9:15-16).
@horseman528 if GOD looks on the heart ??? all HEsees is that the heart it's wicked and a slave to sin you must not know your heart or are underestimating your sin pride is at the root of that I used to believe in free will but now I know better I don't like it but it is what it is so sorry for you people can be decived truely decieved into thinking they made a decition for GOD what foolishness it is PRIDE
@patriotsfan1379 You believe whatever you wish. If you want to believe we have no choice in our salvation and that God by exclusion damns the majority of mankind to hell, I can't stop you. Just a thought, but you might want to punctuate your sentences.
@horseman528 take the log out of your eye before looking at somebodys speck am sure you make many mistakes in different areas as well plus don't change the subject we are not talking about that it's not what ever I want to believe it's what the bible teaches but to the natural man the things of GOD are foolishness and he cannot understand them he who has ears to hear let him hear and he who has eyes to see let him see
@patriotsfan1379 zechariah 1:4"Do not be like your fathers to whom the former prophets preached, saying "Thus says the Lord of hosts: "Turn now from your evil ways and your evil deeds." But they did not hear nor heed Me," says the Lord." This verse in Zechariah proves that God gives people a choice to choose salvation but many do not heed Him. In other words, He called but they would not listen. We are all free moral agents. God doesn't force anyone to go to hell. Read Ezekiel18:19-32
@horseman528 there are two different types of calls the general call which GOD warns people to repent but knows they won't listen HE does this so that people can never sat HE never told me anything than there is the call to the elect otherwise why would JESUS say he who has ears to hear let him hear unles you think there must have been some people without ears when HE said that arminians always take verses out of context
@horseman528 just to think that after just one sin adam n eve ran n hid from GOD and in Jhon the light of the world came but man loved darkness so to say that we who have sin from the moment we are born to think that we would seek GOD when the bible says no one seeks after GOD all have turned away romans ch.3 it is pure pride it is sin i want what i want when i want it n the way i want it in this case salvation in GOD has nothing to do with it it is pure pride
@patriotsfan1379 If a person can't choose to be saved then that means you are not allowed to do anything because that would be pride. Do you then sit around and wait for God to zap you or provide some miraculous experience? And why would God call someone who didn't have freewill? Thats like commanding someone to walk when they're crippled and then getting mad because they didn't walk.
@horseman528 so what are you gonna tell GOD here Iam aren't you happy I made a choice for you aren't you glad I came willingly oh I know YOU had to help me some but you didn't help me as much as my neighbor oh how lucky YOU are that am here you do not now your sinfullness do you you want salvation on your own terms but the bible says salvation is of the LORD
@patriotsfan1379 Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God; and not that he should return from his ways, and live. Jer. 7:13 And now, because ye have done all these works, saith the Lord, and I spake unto you, rising up early and speaking, but ye heard not; and I CALLED YOU, BUT YOU ANSWERED NOT; Again, why would God call someone who didn't have a choice? The answer is because they do indeed have a choice.
@horseman528 For we have not always lived in the Spirit, but once we live according to the flesh. And Paul says in (Romans 8:7-8) "because the mind set on the flesh is HOSTILE toward God; for it DOES NOT subject itself to the law of God, for it is NOT EVEN ABLE TO DO SO, and those who are in the flesh CANNOT please God." That's why Christ said "no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him..." God is the one who reveals Himself to us, while we were yet "enemies of God"...
@horseman528 I find no reason to believe the Reformed interpretation of the Bible is somehow "contradictory" to the rest of scripture, but rather I find it completely biblical and consistent with God's revealed word...and do to our depraved and rebellious nature towards God (while we were unconverted), we deserved God's full wrath in Hell. But do to His grace and mercy which He shows to whom He wills (Romans 9:18), He saves us from sin, brings us to Christ, and freely grants us everlasting life!
@horseman528 Secondly, the word "foreknew" in (Romans 8:29) is in greek "proginōskō", which is a verb & NOT the noun (to passively see future events). This is an active verb that God is doing, and whenever God is the subject, and "foreknew" is the verb in the New Testament, the object is personal. Then he(Paul) goes on to say that those whom were foreknew(His elect), were justified and this choice was unconditional (Romans 9:11-13) & before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5).
Thanks for the faithful video. Who can be saved by one's own free will? What does the Bible say? Romans 9 (KJV) 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, nor of him that runneth, BUT OF GOD THAT SHEWETH MERCY. . Acts 17:31. Because he (God) hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness.. Christ Returns May 21, 2011 to Judge the World..
@rpavich Just reread what I wrote.and answer those question. YOU are either Lost or Found and if He seeks and saves that which is Lost. and HE chooses who is lost and who He will find.THOSE who are lost and GOD chooses not to find them are they not with EXCUSE.and in order to be lost does not one have to be "in" a holding place and then wander away lose their way.THIS can go on and on.I hope that ALL means just what it Means does that imply GOD only or does man have the ability to really choose
who are the elect that you are talking about? everyone thinks that they are the elect even universalist. the verse can be used for everyone, if the elect know that they are suppost to use it for themselves they also know it is fit for all because it was givin to them to testify of.
@seekyefirst80 Rational is the ability to reason. Look it up in a dictionary. You have imaginary beings at the forefront of your discourse. You demonstrate that you are a slave to irrationality when you bypass this. Wanting to believe something that cannot be demontrated as true is not the act of a rational actor. The Bible is a book of fiction made by men that is continually revised and has no intrinsic authority, only that which irrational persons grant it.
@seekyefirst80 we're supposed to have child like faith. when we're in the presence of God we realize how little we actually know. knowledge just puffs up.
@SAM135073 btw i'm not saying we're supposed to be theologically ignorant, but i'm saying that we shouldnt be so consumed with theology and thoughts "about" God that we miss the very presence of God.
@seekyefirst80 i would agree. but the thing about the calvinism vs. armenianism debate, is that it'll never be solved. ever. i would agree that theology is important and that mormons are serving the wrong jesus. i used to start debates about this kinda stuff with my friends and the sole reason behind it all was pretty much just to show how much i know. but the thing is, when your in the presence of the father, theology isnt a concern. we're not supposed to over complicate things
@seekyefirst80 "Your view of GOD is too low, and your view of man is too high."
My view of every and any god ever described to me, is that he is the badly formed imaginings from the minds of human beings , who are not capable of free and rational enquiry.
My view of man comes individually with each human being I meet.
Realistically, you are commenting on my views regarding two types of human being. one who'll believe what he's told to believe, and one who can think for himself.
seems like yall focus way too much on theology. knowledge just puffs up. and in reality, who cares if you're a calvinist or an armenian. if you love and SERVE Jesus, than who cares. Because theology is just what we know about God, but being humans, you cant know everything about God is really, no ones theology is 100% accurate. Its gonna suck for both armenians and calvinist who spend all there time pushing there theology when they get to heaven and they realize that they didnt get it 100% right
@SAM135073 and i'm a calvinist. not a full five point, but i'm mostly calvinist. i just dont think people should debate it as much, because people lose sight of love, seem big headed, and even think of themselves as very knowledgable. I think we should have a firm belief on key issues, which if your a Christian, you'd have to, and then serve Jesus, and let their theology work itself out. Calvinism isn't Christianity, its a stance on Christianity, as is armeniansim.
So....you don't think people should debate doctrine because they lose sight of love, yet you posted 5 comments in a row...debating your side of that argument....
What does seek and to save that which is lost mean?
IF you are lost would not Jesus seek them? and if you are not lost...then you are a part of God's family?<right Cause God being GOD<He is sovereign...and no-one would be lost with out Him finding them.<right?!
This is totally a red herring! The reasonable question that is asked by skeptics is : Why does god demand a hideous ETERNAL torture for ridiculously trivial human flaws, many of which wouldn't even be morally wrong outside of his own fiat, or more realistically, that of those who claim his existence?
Who has the right to claim "god" to be moral by human standards?
@aaa333ify Well that was the argument. We are justified by faith in Jesus Christ, the unbelievers that God reveals himself too don't have faith in him because faith is the assurance of things unseen. So if we must have faith to get into Heaven, those who don't have faith won't be able to get into Heaven. And we both see that the unbelievers won't have "faith" in Jesus Christ, therefore they won't be able to get into Heaven.
We are saved by the faith OF Christ (pistis Christou) - HIS FAITHFULNESS! We are not saved by what we do, we are saved by what HE DID! We are ALL saved by the blood of the Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sin of the WORLD! Hell completely contradicts the clear teachings of the Bible.
When you read your Lexicon, YOU do not get to pick and choose which definition that YOU like the best. You need to look at the context to determine the exact definition. Your hermeneutics and exegesis are tremendously flawed and corrupt. You have let MAN determine your definition of KOSMOS instead of the Holy Spirit. Now I am sure you will also redefine the word ALL in the above scriptures in 1 Cor 15:22 and Romans 5:18 that I just posted for you.
@123qth Msg 1) Let's look at 1 Cor 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." If this verse means that in Christ, each and every individual will be made alive, the Bible would contradict itself. You do have a point though, because both of the "all"s are the same Greek word, but they both must have different meanings because all PEOPLE obviously will NOT be made alive in Christ and the scriptures make that extremely clear. Do you believe that NONE will go to Hell?
No one will go to Hell. Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sin of the WORLD! You are greatly mistaken, all WILL be made alive in Christ. Every single human that ever lived! Jesus Christ defeated the death of the first Adam for the entire human race! That is why He is called the LAST ADAM! He replaces the first Adam for all mankind. Jesus will be 100% victorious over sin, evil, Satan, and death! EVERYONE will be reconciled to the Father through Christ and His blood.
@123qth It's ironic that you would believe that Calvinism is a heresy. Your belief implies that believers AND unbelievers will go to Heaven, it also implies that there is no point in putting faith in Jesus Christ. Look at Mt 7:13, "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it." Also, 1 Jn 3:15 "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."
The wide path to destruction ( not Hell) is the destruction that sin has on THIS life. Sin destroys families, relationships, communities, and nations. Eternal life is the QUALITY of life that the Holy Spirit brings, again in THIS life. Eternal life is never equated with going to Heaven. If you have other verses that you want me to explain, please let me know. Thanks for writing back.
@123qth No problem, I do have other verses, but I'd rather you respond to the question I asked on my previous comment (on the false prophets), and for some reason this comment didn't show up in my inbox so you can ignore the "I'd rather you respond to comments directed towards you" part. I do however, have another question. Are you a part of the "emergent church"?
@123qth And in response to this comment, if "eternal life" is equated with a better quality of life on Earth, explain why the unbelievers are the ones that are living wealthy and luxurious lives? Explain why Jesus said things such as " any one who follows me must take up their own CROSS"? Explain Paul said, "If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men MOST TO BE PITIED."1Cor15:19? That doesn't sound like a good quality of life. "All who desire to be godly WILL be PERSECUTED."
@123qth Comment#1) (Before you respond to this comment, you can respond to my other comments.) You just dug yourself in a hole. I would like to exegete the entire Scripture and show you how it CONTRADICTS all you have just said rather than "confirm" it. This will take two comments, so please read them both. "If we have hoped in Christ" so the "we" must be those with the Holy Spirit that you claimed have a better quality of life in "THIS" life because they are the ones that "hoped in Christ."
@123qth Comment#2) "In this life only" so Paul is saying if those with the Holy Spirit only have eternal life in this life ONLY. "We are of ALL MEN most to be pitied" take a look at the word ALL men! That means, out of believers AND unbelievers, the believers are the MOST to be pitied if there is no future salvation. From your beliefs though, believers have a BETTER quality of life than unbelievers, so shouldn't the unbelievers be most pitied? No! Believers in fact have the WORST quality of life
We have the WORST quality of .life????? I have been freed from the bondages to sin and evil! I have been healed and set free! Are you kidding me???? My life is a 1,000,000 times better than when I was an unbeliever!
@123qth Comment#1) That is true in a sense, but it is also false in a sense. Let's look at it Biblically, if we did not have the worst quality of life, Paul himself (who was an extremely joyful man) would have never said that "we" believers are the MOST to be pitied of ALL men! But then if you look at the next verse you will see where our joy comes from, "But now Christ HAS been raised from the dead," our joy comes from the "hope"&faith we have in Jesus! It is as though we KNOW Jesus is risen!
@123qth Comment#2) I personally would NEVER leave Christ, and am sure that no believer would! It is because our hope in Christ brings us a joy that we had never experienced! But the main point of 1 Cor 15:19 that we need to consider is the word "IF." "IF by some chance, our hope in Christ was false, we are to be pitied most of all men!" Think about it, verses like Mt 13:44-46 show us that believers leave EVERYTHING for the treasure of Christ. But what if our hope in that treausre was false?
I left SIN and EVIL and BONDAGE! I would NEVER return to that vomit! Maybe Paul was talking about the persecution they were suffering, which was terrible at that time. At any rate, it has nothing to say about the future reconciliation of all mankind. Do you have any other verses that you want to discuss? I love a good Bible study.
@123qth Comment#1) I don't have any other verses because you keep trying to slip away from what is taught in THIS verse. "Maybe Paul was talking about the persecution they were suffering"? Is that your way to excuse what is taught in this verse? The Bible teaches that "ALL who desire to live Godly in Christ Jesus (Believers) WILL BE PERSECUTED" - 2 Tim 3:12. And it has ALOT to say about the future reconciliation according to you, since you claimed that eternal life was a "good quality of life."
@123qth Comment#2) You continue to say that you left sin and that you would never return, and praise God! I wouldn't either. But you refuse to go to WHY you wouldn't return to sin. The reason for that is because of the "hope" you have in Jesus! This causes me to go back to the same verse where Paul clearly says, "IF" this hope was false, we are to be most pitied of ALL men. Because we suffered in vain. My point is that eternal life has NOTHING to do with THIS life, that doesn't even make sense.
@123qth Please, re-read over my comments. "You continue to say that you left sin and that you would never return, and praise God! I WOULDN'T EITHER." Ofcourse my life was worst as an unbeliever, but what you refuse to see is that I'm trying to get you down to WHY believers enjoy their lives more now than when they were unbelievers. The answer to that is because of the HOPE they have in Jesus. So please, don't misinterpret what I've been saying. I'm not attacking your faith, but your doctrine.
I would not go back to sin because it is BONDAGE! Sin causes depression, fights, disease, divorce, turmoil, abuse, anger, discontentment, etc etc etc etc! Why in the world would I ever want to return to that filth?????
@123qth So what would you say to an unbeliever that believes that their sin is good and loves it? Basically, since the Bible teaches that the world hates Jesus and rejects God, who would ever want to get "saved" when they are "already saved" according to your doctrine?
I would tell the sinner that he was deceived and then ask him a lot of questions about his current life to show him the truth about the effects of sin on his life.
They do not want to get saved! They do not even know what it means to get saved! God has to remove the deception in order for someone to want to get saved! The carnal man CANNOT accept the things of the Spirit because they are Spiritually discerned.
@123qth Correct me if I'm wrong, but from your comments, I am lead to assume that your doctrine accepts Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Universal Atonement, Irresistable Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints. Because you believe that unbelievers CANNOT accept the things of the Spirit, that God chooses those who will accept Him in this life, that Christ died for every person, that even an atheist cannot resist God's choice, and that someone who still loves his carnal life is not saved.
@123qth I meant "Total" as in ALL of the world was affected by the fall of Adam and were put under the bondage of sin. I guess Universal Depravity would be a better word for it.
@123qth So our disagreement lies in Universal Atonement, I believe that Jesus atoned only for those that God chose to believe in Him in this life (in Unconditional Election) and that all the others that don't believe in him will be sent to Hell for all eternity while all of those who *did* believe in Him in this life will go to Heaven to be with God for all eternity. If you don't mind I'll send you a message in the future (when I have time) with a well constructed argument on why I believe this.
First, I would like you to do a study on Gehenna, the word Jesus used that is translated HELL in most English bibles. Jesus was warning of the death penalty with the body then being tossed into Gehenna, the garbage dump that criminals executed bodies were tossed. The wages of sin is DEATH - not Hell. God told Adam and Eve they would surely DIE - not go to Hell. The Lake of Fire is the second DEATH - not Hell. The last enemy to be destroyed is DEATH. Any questions so far?
Ok. It is a LAKE of Fire. A LAKE is not a prison or dungeon. There are no bars on a lake. A lake is used for cleansing, purification and baptism. This is the baptism with Fire that purges away sin death and evil. This is the second death, the death of the carnal nature, the disease of sin. It is the victory of the cross in action against all sin death and evil. Revelation is apocalyptic language and metaphor. Death and Hades are thrown into this Lake of Fire.
Also, please note that the apostle Paul NEVER mentions any place called hell to the Gentiles. NOT ONCE! Don't the Gentiles need to know about this terrible place so they can warn their unsaved loved ones when telling them the Gospel? How could Paul possibly not even mention this place? How come it is never mentioned in Acts, Hebrews, John, or 123 John? How is this possible? Have we misunderstood Jesus's use of Gehenna? Yes, I believe we have.
What about the eternal punishment in Matt 25:46 in the parable of the sheep and goats? The Greek word for punishment here is KOLASIS which means corrective discipline, like a child gets from a loving Father. It is for training in righteousness. The goats did not reject Christ. There is nothing about the cross or the blood in this Matt 25 parable. No mention of the Gospel at all. Neither in the rich man and Lazarus parable. But that is enough for now. Thanks for listening.
I will pray for you that the Holy Spirit will guide you in your studies and that He opens the eyes of your heart and understanding. It is He that reveals truth to us, as I know you are already aware. Thanks for the conversation.
@123qth By using Mt 25:46, you just debunked your own argument. "These will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Regardless of your beliefs, the word "eternal" means never ending. Also, with Lazarus in Lk 16:26, on the relationship of those in Hell and in Heaven, it says, "And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those whi wish to come over from here ti you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us."
The RESULTS of the corrective discipline in Matt 25:46 are eternal! When God fixes something or someone He does it right and permanently. ETERNAL is also about the QUALITY of the discipline FROM an ETERNAL GOD! The rich man is in HADES, not Gehenna. Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire in Revelation which proves it CANNOT be eternal! I have put 1000's of hours of study into this subject by the mercy of God who has shown me the truth.
@123qth So we see that none in Hell will pass onto Heaven and vice-versa. Also, Paul DOES mention Hell, have you ever read 2Thess 1:6-9 before? Hebrews does so too, have you ever read Heb 10:26-27? 2Pet 3:9 doesn't need Greek to be proven, think about it's context, he was talking to believers and was letting them know that God WOULD like for everyone to repent, but that doesn't mean that they all will. God has a soverign and passive will. God also wouldn't like people to sin, we clearly do thoug
Everlasting DESTRUCTION is happening in 2 Thess at the Lord's second coming, not at the final judgement. This is the destruction of the flesh, the carnal nature. There is NO mention of any place called Hell here nor in Hebrews 10:26. The adversaries in Hebrews 10 are demons and lies. You are greatly misunderstanding the word of God, just like I did for 30 years until God revealed the truth to me.
@123qth You were correct as a Calvinist. Look at John 17:9, "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom you have given Me; for they are Yours" Why doesn't Jesus pray for the rest of the world? Why does He pray only for those whom God gave Him? Your belief contradicts passages such as John 10. Unbelievers WILL go to Hell, read Rev 21:8. The fire in the Gehenna never stopped and it was symbolic to the never ending torments of Hell where the fire is never quenched
I already explained that the Lake of Fire is the second DEATH - not Hell. It is the death of sin and evil, Hades and death. It is the baptism with fire that cleanses and purifies from sin. The fire that is never quenched is in Gehenna, the garbage dump where they never extinguish fires. They keep them burning on purpose. It is not talking about hell. Hell is a false teaching.
Yes , it is CORRECTION and its RESULTS are eternal! When God CORRECTS someone , it is PERMANENT! The fire purifies and cleanses from unrighteousness! God's fire is a refining fire - hence CORRECTION that never fails! He STAYS CORRECT forever!
@123qth I reposted it, it had a small typo and the "penalty" part was removed. Re-read it. And also, what you said doesn't sound too much like the definition to me.
TIMORIA is the Greek word for "vindictive punishment". Kolasis is the Greek word for corrective punishment as in discilplining a child. I have been researching this for over 5 years now. I have studied numerous Greek grammars and lexicons.
The point is God does not want all men (individually) to be saved, otherwise they would be saved. Salvation has nothing to do with the choice of man. . Gods free sovereign Gace has decided salvation apart from anything in, of or by the recipiant.
Gimplett 3 weeks ago
If God WANTS all men to be saved, then why doesn't He save all men? Because He doesn't WANT to violate their freedom? But that means He WANTS something other than all men to be saved, namely that they choose Him which disqualifies billions. But that's what He WANTS.
omascho 1 month ago
Whether God wills any of the world or any of the elect to not perish, what does that have to do with your salvation??
Celestiaetterra 2 months ago
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human knowledge. Let the Holy Spirit of God reveal it to you. It will happen if you take a step to repentance and receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour. Acts 2:38- Repent & be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit
zedrev01 2 months ago
Great video! Thanks for posting!
sjennings86 3 months ago
The title is misleading... It implies that God is willing that some perish.
Lisztman88 5 months ago
By this man's logic all the epistles should be removed from the Bible. After all, they are addressed to specific persons or churches. They can't be meant for us to read.
ReverendTFunk 5 months ago
By this man's logic all the epistles should be removed from the Bible. After all, they are addressed to specific persons or churches. They can't be meant for us to read.
ReverendTFunk 5 months ago
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redbonesmkia 6 months ago
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redbonesmkia 6 months ago
@redbonesmkia Um...no, obviously it should be read in what it says in it's early Greek.. Not some english translation hundreds of years latter.
Domodeath 6 months ago
The Father teaches that many can't understande the Truth because they (calvinists) are trapped by the god of this world. And, as we can see, just like many religious fanatics defend their religion doctrines like a starving dog defends a dried bone - with hate (they have no true love in itself), without the use of reason (do not know the truth and only have inaccurate parameters), without consideration (do not listen to draw conclusions, but look for words that possser used against the speaker).
marcelobetel 7 months ago
@marcelobetel In desperation (because they understand that that piece of dry bone is his only hope of being happy).
So, if you try to pull that bone of it's mouth, probably you'll figure that is too hard and dangerous.
Even a mule, when we try to get it out of a hole, it bites and kicks - That's it's nature.
But I have a puzzle to be solved by a calvinist that maybe helps:
Please, explain why The Kingdom of Heavens belongs to all children (Mt 19:14) even before they converting.
marcelobetel 7 months ago
A nonsense doctrine like calvinism is really comparable to nazism.
The illuminati ones, those that use to "rule the world" sitted in their thrones...
Trying to get a pure race of humans and decrese the number of people by less then 500 million.
Calvin tryied to rise a new vatican at a different address, using Augustinus (catholic and "greek phlosopher" - even being not naturally greek).
All calvinism dogmas came out from Greece, not from Jerusalem.
marcelobetel 7 months ago
@marcelobetel And from Rome. You forget that Romans 9 comes from Rome. Foolishness.
jboi116 7 months ago
@jboi116 Hehehe...
...Romans 9 came from above. From THE LOVIN' CREATOR. Not from "The Institutes".
The Creator didn't creates sin.
HE saves those who want to leave sin for the love of HIM. No matter if he's jew, egyptian, a king or a homeless.
In Jo 8:37-45 Jesus says that sinners are sons of the devil, not The Creator's sons.
HE commands us to NOT sin and be PERFECT like HE IS - In Tt 2 we can see it AGAIN...
I hope you read it and open your heart to be blessed.
1Jo 3:9 definitions...
marcelobetel 7 months ago
If the word "WORLD" in Jn 3:16 means the world of the elect, then how can any of the ELECT perish through unbelief?
rplende 7 months ago
Rightly Divide the Word of Truth........I call friend whom I share the Truth, is what HahYAHAsherHAhYAh =I Am that I Am, Elyon=Master God says..........you are a liar! He died for ALL and if they reject Him, whoa to Him that does!!!
Joyce4Christ 9 months ago
@Joyce4Christ
/// He died for ALL ///
All the elect yes.
doctorh2005 9 months ago
@doctorh2005 NOPE! All, in this case means all.
The Creator can save everbody, but, because you probably (even if you don't confirm that) have the will that all that are sinfull go to hell, you embraced a doctrine that express that to feel more confortable.
So, to limit the reach of the sacrifice of Chist (the devils dream) the possibilit to chose MUST be removed. Then, calvinists had to face the fact that the sin must have to be "God's" will - all that to keep the idea of a weak sacrifice...
marcelobetel 7 months ago
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patriotsfan1379 10 months ago
Oh, and BTW, this guy should read the King James Concordance Dictionary too.
Many good surprises there...
marcelobetel 10 months ago
Here's the Strong's translation (Mickelson's):
G3956 πᾶς pas (pas`) (including all the forms of declension) adj.
1. all, any, every, the whole
[apparently a primary word]
KJV: all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever
[?]
Now you have a chance to choose your path (choose?!?)...
marcelobetel 10 months ago
@marcelobetel
So does the word "All" in LUKE 3:21 mean "all without exception" aswell?
Yes or no.
doctorh2005 9 months ago
@doctorh2005 YES!
All means all there 'cause that "people" means local (the ones that were there to be baptized), like all people in front a chrch waiting to the doors to be opened.
So, YES!
marcelobetel 9 months ago
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@marcelobetel
/// All means all there 'cause that "people" means local (the ones that were there to be baptized), ///
Tell me where it specifically says all those "who intended to be baptised were baptised".
The verse just says "all the people were baptised", with no qualifying words to say who it is.
I have just proved to you that "All" does not necessarily mean "all WITHOUT EXCEPTION"
doctorh2005 9 months ago
@marcelobetel
Does the word "ALL" in MARK 1:5 mean "All WITHOUT EXCEPTION"????
The verse says..."And ALL the country of Judea and ALL Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him"
Does "ALL" there mean all "WITHOUT EXCEPTION"?
Yes or no.
doctorh2005 9 months ago
@doctorh2005 Do you think that the word "all" that is used in Scriptures with more then one sense can help you in a different verse? Really? That's justa a poor attempt to commit a sophism.
Please, think a little more and you'll see that words like time, son, father, ALL, may have different sense in Scripture, but when YOU say ALL/MANY sinned YOU mean no exception (to defend calvinism) and when YOU say ALL/MANY man are able to become safe, YOU mean just a few (to defend calvinism). That's NUTS.
marcelobetel 9 months ago
@marcelobetel
/// Do you think that the word "all" that is used in Scriptures with more then one sense can help you in a different verse? ///
If the context of the entirety of the Scriptures requires it - ABSOLUTELY.
/// when YOU say ALL/MANY man are able to become safe ///
Able????
It's not about being "ABLE" to become saved, but simply "WILL BE saved".
God's IRRESISTABLE GRACE ensures the elect WILL BE saved, not simply "ENABLE" them to be so.
doctorh2005 9 months ago
@doctorh2005 You have the power to enter your father's house, but he gave you some "time restriction".
So, you still have the power to enter your father's house, but if you do not get there at the time he told you the door would be unlocked, well, will never get in there.
Look, your way to see the Scriptures is distorted from the begining, so, everthing after that will be like what you're trying to make me "understand".
There's NO unresistible grace, 'cause grace is grace. That's not a cmmand!
marcelobetel 9 months ago
@doctorh2005 In the context of the entire Scripture, what do you see when you read a condition about "remaining" in The Savior's doctrine (NT)?
In the same context, how many called "people of GOD" or "GOD's people" BY GOD HIMSELF, were lost?
In the context of Scripture, what does Ez 33:11 mean(Prophets)?
In the same manner, what are the exactly words in Dt 30:19-20 (LAW)?
Do you know why you can't accept that?
Because you're looking for natural "justice" where sinners have no chance to repent.
marcelobetel 9 months ago
@doctorh2005 So you are NOT lookin for the entire context of the Scriptures, but only saying that all Scripture confirms what you're trying to prove.
The word ALL in the context in the verse you have in mind to is used to condemn ALL and to absolve ALL; the same to the word MANY is imediately followed by another MANY. So, they must have to be at the same sense.
But not for "human intelligence without the Holy Spirit" followers...(Jm 3:13-18)
BTW, can you make John Calvin fit into these verses?
marcelobetel 9 months ago
@marcelobetel
/// So you are NOT lookin for the entire context of the Scriptures, but only saying that all Scripture confirms what you're trying to prove ///
I'll say it again.
The ENTIRE CONTEXT of the ENTIRETY of the Scriptures demands that "All" mean either "all without exception", or "all GENERALLY - aka, ALL KINDS/TYPES"
/// BTW, can you make John Calvin fit into Jn 3:13-18)? ///
Absolutely - the "world of God's ELECT".
Not once does "world" mean every person who ever lived.
doctorh2005 9 months ago
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@doctorh2005 So you can read this verse: "and he--he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world, (1Jo 2:2)" and say that WHOLE WORLD doesn't mean EVERYBODY.
WOW! That's what I was talking about when I said that nobody can SEE The TRUTH thru another man, but The Savior. If you keep believing in all these lies you'll NOT be able to understand LOVE, but only PUNISHMENT.
Calvinist "GOD" is cruel and hides HIS will, givo no chance for all, etc. etc. etc.
marcelobetel 9 months ago
@marcelobetel Calvinisms approach to hermeneutics is very similar to that of the Jehovahs Witnesses. They apply meanings to words and verses to suit their theology. eg the word COSMOS "world" to mean "world of the elect" Treating the concept of faith as a work when it is actually a believing and receiving concept. God says believe and receive I say Ï believe" and God says "then you have received"
rplende 7 months ago
@marcelobetel In 1John 2:2 it says Jesus is the propitiation for our sins and ... for the whole world (Cosmos) or in Calvinist hermeneutics "the world of the elect" Now if the Calvinist case is correct then we have a dilemma when we get to verse 15 of the same chapter ie 1Jn 2:15 Do not love the WORLD (COSMOS - WORLD OF THE ELECT) OR THE THINGS OF "THE WORLD OF THE ELECT" He is telling believers not to love the elect??????
rplende 7 months ago
@rplende Oh yes!
A great point, but they don't read The Scripture - they have a spirit to interpret The Scriptures for them. Sadly, this spirit is not The Holy Spirit, but the same that inspired more them 40.000 different doctrines over the world, so far, like jeohovas witnesses, catholics, kardecists, mormons, and list goes on and on...
Believe in a Creator that IS LOVE and don't give a chance for HIS OWN creature made HIS "ambassador" on Earth is to believe in a greek mithology figure.
marcelobetel 7 months ago
@marcelobetel Proverbs 16:4 Use now Scripture without context.
jboi116 7 months ago
@jboi116 Oh, that's not the only verse that says that The Creator made something that I am trying to show that He des NOT.
Like I said, THE ETHERNAL LAW, before the Bible, before the earth, before the universe determines this:
All mankind will be good and have a perfect relationship with The Creator individually, they want to.
If not, I'll not be able to stop satan to touch them.
The Creator made the DEF? Yes, but NOT the deafness.
HE made the unjust, but NOT THE injustice in him - SEE?
marcelobetel 7 months ago
@rplende Totally agree. But they have a stupid answer that they acept like an aspirin. They say that the word "world" hame almost 14 different meanings in The Scripture.
So, they stick their heads into the ground and sing that God made the sin and made manking to sin and go to hell untill you give up and go to talk about The Savior's LOVE to who's interested...
They should realize that that actually IS harden the heart.
marcelobetel 7 months ago
@rplende Totally agree. But they have a stupid answer that they acept like an aspirin. They say that the word "world" have almost 14 different meanings in The Scripture.
So, they stick their heads into the ground and sing that God made the sin and made manking to sin and go to hell untill you give up and go to talk about The Savior's LOVE to whom's interested...
They should realize that that actually IS harden the heart.
marcelobetel 7 months ago
@doctorh2005 Don't tray to defend what is indefensible.
You are tryingo to "twist" the sense of the word "all" t defend calvinism, that's all, and you know that all - (blink).
You know that The Savior gave HIS life for all mankind, even that many will not receive HIM like The Savior.
If you have a brther you can see that some cild receive more gifts from his parents 'cause that kid use to be obedient. But those parents could give all the same gifts if all used to be obedient.
marcelobetel 9 months ago
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@marcelobetel
/// You are tryingo to "twist" the sense of the word "all" t defend calvinism, ///
Thats because Calvinism IS Christianity bucko.
/// The Savior gave HIS life for all mankind ///
Specific verse that specifically says that?
/// But those parents could give all the same gifts if all used to be obedient. ////
AHHH.... here lies your problem...
You think that we were "all obedient" - when ROMANS 3:10-18 says the exact OPPOSITE.
doctorh2005 9 months ago
Well, another try to manipulate the truth!
The dictionary use in this video IS NOT Strong's one, like they expose, as fundamental part of this statement. The dictionary used is the Thayer's one.
And Joseph Henry Thayer was one of those that passed his life learning in Harvard Divinity School about calvinism and unitarianism for a long time, you know?
It's so easy to crush lies like that...
marcelobetel 10 months ago
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@marcelobetel
/// Joseph Henry Thayer was one of those that passed his life learning in Harvard Divinity School about calvinism and unitarianism for a long time, you know? ///
Thats absolutely irrelevant.
Thats called the Genetic Fallacy - and is a false arguement.
Truth is not determined upon a person's history.
doctorh2005 9 months ago
i cant imagine all the evil God has to endure, if it hurts us, imagine what it does to Him...
atamotua64 10 months ago
Can u please not twist John 3:16 also? or is it too late? You've already twisted God's character to be something it's not.
atamotua64 10 months ago
@atamotua64 john 3;16 it's only twisted by people who do not read it in context of the entire chapter and this is the judgement that THE LIGHT CAME INTO THE WORLD BUT PEOPLE LOVED THE DARKNESS RATHER THAN THE LIGHT BECAUSE THEIR DEEDS WERE EVIL
patriotsfan1379 10 months ago
@atamotua64 How? It truly seems to me that synergist are the ones twisting John 3:16 into making it claim something that is not there (like 'whosoever' meaning that man actually has the capacity in himself to believe in Christ). However, monogist tend see right through this tradition of man, since the word "whosoever" is NOT found in the greek, but rather it is "pas ho pisteuōn", which simply means all the believing ones or everyone believing... Also, in what way have we twisted God's character
xWhiteLightning 10 months ago
Y go to such lengths to put God in a bad light? Cause that's what predestination does. It makes God evil saying that God made evil creatures to disobey Him & go against His Ruling. This is a pagan & evil idea of Thesis & Antithesis, making God the Grand Puppetier who PLAYS both sides of good & evil so that in the end He still comes out on top. It's saying God is both good & evil, which is not only False, it's Impossible; cant be both, & we cant serve two masters. This is twisted guys.
atamotua64 10 months ago
ROMANS CHAPTER 9
patriotsfan1379 10 months ago
again he who has ears to hear let him hear unless GOD calls with the internal call we will not we cannot hear nor would we be able to respond since you think that you saved yourself by making a choice I see that you did not need GOD to save you when GOD calls HE also provides faith so that you not only respond but do the things HE want you to do for without faith it is impossible to please GOD I feel sorry for you if you think you chose GOD
patriotsfan1379 10 months ago
@patriotsfan1379 Of course I didn't save myself. The blood of Christ saves us when we believe and obey the gospel. Rom 6: 17 " But God be thanked that ye were slaves of sin but ye have OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered to you." And how was that doctrine delivered to us? By preaching and teaching Rom. 10:14-17...how shall they hear without a preacher... I'm finished with this arguing. Adios
horseman528 10 months ago
@horseman528 does that belief comes of your own doing? because if it does than it's not biblical ephesians 2 says for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves it is a gift of GOD so the only reason anyone obey it's because GOD gives faith otherwise we would not we would not even believe but not according to you you think you have it in you not only to believe but also to obey what pride you have what self dependency you have
patriotsfan1379 10 months ago
@patriotsfan1379 Belief comes from hearing God's Word. I did not make up the Word of God so it is not my own doing that creates belief but it is by hearing and believeing the Word of God. Rom. 10:17 Now faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. According to John 1:1 The Word is God. So it is God that causes my heart to believe. But He gives this opportunity to anyone who will listen and believe. In Matt. 13 did the sower discriminate as to where the seed was sown?
horseman528 10 months ago
@horseman528 for HE says to Moses I will have mercy on who I will have mercy so than it depends not on human WILL or desire but on GOD to have mercy SO THEN HE has mercy on whomever HE wills and HE hardens whomever HE wills you will say why does HE still find fault/ BUT WHO ARE YOU TO ARGUE WITH YOUR MAKER WHO MAKES OUT OF ONE LUMP ONE VESSEL FOR MERCY AND ANOTHER FOR WRATH
patriotsfan1379 10 months ago
@horseman528 there are hundreds of thousands who hear the word and do not respond are you implying thatyou are more honorable or more obidient or that your heart is better or that you are smarter cause you responded and others didn't? cause if you are you are boasting and you are saying that you don't need grace that you only needed to hear the word and than you believed the bible says the natural man cannot understand the things of GOD are you saying that that does not apply to you?
patriotsfan1379 10 months ago
You calvinists take delight in that you think God has predestined most of mankind to be lost. God has foreknowledge of what choices men will make. Since God already knows what men will do, he may harden those who have already chosen evil anyway and he favors those who He knows will obey him. Rom :16-18. Who did God foreknow in Rom. 8:29? He foreknew who would come to Him and who wouldn't but it is a choice. God does not tempt men with evil. James 1:13
horseman528 11 months ago
@horseman528 First of all, (John 6:65) Jesus states "...no one can come to Me unless it has been GRANTED him from the Father.” and “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." (John 6:37). So it isn't our will to come to Christ, but it is the Father's will that He has mercy on whom He wishes (Romans 9:18).For we were once "dead in trespasses and sin" who "cannot please God" and was "hostile toward God" who "did not seek Him". [cont]
xWhiteLightning 11 months ago
@xWhiteLightning I certainly don't know everything and God will judge me one day. If you're right in your interpretation of the Word then God has spiritually tied a rope around the majority of mankind and thrown them into hell thru no will of their own. Freewill has to be correct or otherwise God has forced men to choose evil. James 1:13-15 How can that be? Rom 1:18-25 If you're right, then the bible contradicts itself.
horseman528 11 months ago
@horseman528 First of all, it seems your interpretation of what Calvinism actually teaches is off. We don't believe God forces anyone to do evil--in fact that goes against God's Holiness...but rather man has CHOSE to sin against Him on our own "free-will", and we by nature are children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3) that turn from Light (John 3:19-20), and who do NOT seek after Him (Romans 3:11). Also, the ONLY reason why people end up in Hell, is because they're guilty of sin and unbelief. [cont]
xWhiteLightning 11 months ago
@xWhiteLightning So now your saying one does have freewill to chooses sin but no one has the power to choose to be saved. Theres no middle road. If man can only choose sin but not salvation then there is no choice but one. Its like someone offering a person the choice of the right or left but saying you can't go right unless I let you but you can choose the left way without my permission. So the person has no choice but to go left unless he's given permission to go right. flawed logic.
horseman528 11 months ago
@horseman528 Actually, what you said was correct and NOT "flawed logic" at all, but rather it's biblical doctrine. Jesus explains the will of the unconverted man in (John 3:19-20) VERY clearly, and also the reason why we turn from Light. Paul makes it clear in (Romans 3:10-18) that we had no good in us, we didn't seek God, and we feared Him not. For we were dead in trespasses and sin and could not please God on our own, for we were slaves to sin (John 8:34), who by nature were children of wrath!
xWhiteLightning 11 months ago
@horseman528 Why do you even think Jesus said "no one can come to me unless it has been GRANTED him from the Father."Jesus here is saying that there is an INABILITY on man's part in choosing Christ on our own will. For He says in (John 6:37) that the reason we come to Christ, is because the Father has given us to Him (and this was all God's free choice). For the Father giving us to the Son PRECEDES us coming to Christ...Also--read (Genesis 6:5) & (Romans 8:7-8) again to see the wickedness of man
xWhiteLightning 11 months ago
@xWhiteLightning What does "no one can come to me unless it has been granted him from the Father" really mean? Does it not mean that thru God giving his only begotten son on the cross to die for our sins that He grants all men the possibility to be saved if they choose to come to Him? Acts 17:30 In other words, God gave or granted all men the ability to be saved thru the sacrifice of His Son. However, many are blinded by the god of this world thru their OWN love of the world and sin
horseman528 11 months ago
@horseman528 I believe what (John 6:65) means is exactly what it implies...and that is man cannot come to Christ unless the Father gives us to Him first. And all those whom He has drawn to Himself, shall be raised up on the last day (John 6:44), because those who choose Christ do so because God first chose them (John 6:37, John 15:16, Romans 9:11, etc). Secondly, if Jesus simply made salvation a "possibility", then it would make it man's choice, rather than salvation solely being a work of God.
xWhiteLightning 11 months ago
@horseman528 Secondly, if Jesus really did die for every-single individual that ever lived, as you assert, then does that mean God tries to save all but fails on most? Why didn't God send the Amalekites any prophets if Christ died for them, but rather God commanded their annihilation (1 Samuel 15:3), did God try and save them? Did Christ die for the Antichrist, or even Judas Iscariot? Or what about those prepared beforehand for destruction (Romans 9:22)? I believe Jesus died for His people/sheep
xWhiteLightning 11 months ago
@xWhiteLightning Who can know the mind of God? Can the finite understand the infinite? I don't understand why God does everything He does. Nor do I believe that man's ability to choose takes away from God's soveringty.I do know that God looks on the heart and not the outer man. I will leave you with this thought. Whose love is more precious? One who is programmed to love you or one who chooses to love you? Does God want a robot or a free moral agent who chooses Him of their own volition?
horseman528 11 months ago
@horseman528 First of all, your last two questions don't really make much sense to me, since nobody freely chooses God nor is there any good in man apart from God granting them a new heart. I believe that we were once dead in trespasses and a slave to sin, who's heart turns from and rebels against the Holy God. But by His mercy and love, He has chosen multitudes of people from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation, and freely grants them eternal life and every spiritual blessing in Christ.
xWhiteLightning 11 months ago
@horseman528 If you oppose such biblical truth, then I can't help you. How do you not see God's AMAZING love & mercy towards unjust sinners who deserve hell and wrath, but rather God raises them up into glory on the last day and keeps them free from sin and death in Righteousness. WHY are you so concerned with man's heart, but deny God's truely sovereign free-will by electing whom He wills. Don't you know that man's heart is deceitful and wicked above all things, who can know it (Jeremiah 17:9)?
xWhiteLightning 11 months ago
@horseman528 Now, I will agree with you on this point, and that is that nobody can understand the mind of God--for His ways are not our ways & thoughts are not our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9). But what I will put my trust in is God's revealed word through The Bible, so I won't have my emotions get in the way of interpreting Scripture. Also, since you brought up "programmed" and "God not wanting robots", what do you think about angels? Did they chose to love God first, or is it the other way around?
xWhiteLightning 11 months ago
@xWhiteLightning My last question to you. If one cannot choose to be saved then how does one know they are saved? Do they sit around waiting for God to give them some miraculous experience? I do see God's love and mercy towards sinners and in fact I have felt that love. As far as angels go, I have never seen one although I thought I heard their singing one morning and why am I concerned about man's heart? Read Rom 10:10-11. I don't deny God's soveringty.
horseman528 11 months ago
@horseman528 Well, the way people know that they are saved is if they put their trust & faith in the Lord Jesus Christ & repent of sin. For God is the one who gives us a new heart and puts a new spirit in us that yearns for Him. Now I do believe that Christians choose Christ since they love Him, but the question is did we choose Him first, or did He choose us from the beginning. Rom. 10:9-11, I believe refers to those who are already chosen and born-again, since their hearts are clearly renewed.
xWhiteLightning 11 months ago
@horseman528 As for angels, my point was that do you think that they are some "programmed robots"? Personally, I believe angels likewise have a will and are free to express their desires as they please...
xWhiteLightning 11 months ago
@xWhiteLightning I don't think angels are programmed robots as evidenced by Rev.12:7-9 where it says Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven due to their rebellion. Nor do I think humans are programmed robots but free moral agents with the ability to choose good or evil. Gen 3:22, Deut.30:15-19 "See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil."..."I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life...
horseman528 11 months ago
@horseman528 Well, again I must say that humans don't have the ability to choose good because that concept totally contradicts verses such as (Romans 8:7-8, Romans 3:10-18, John 6:65, John 3:19-20, etc., etc). Also, Deut. 30:19, I see this as God speaking to the people of Israel's hearts, concerning their desires for life(holiness) and death(sin). He commanded them to CHOOSE life, in the way we are commanded to preach repentance and the gospel to everyone throughout the world.
xWhiteLightning 11 months ago
@horseman528 It is true that we are suppose to CHOOSE life, but as it says in Proverbs 20:24 "Man’s steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?" and also (Jeremiah 10:23) "I know, O LORD, that a man’s way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps." So again, I find in numerous amounts of scripture that salvation is solely upon God's decree and grace--for it does not depend on the man who wills or runs, but on God who has mercy (Romans 9:15-16).
xWhiteLightning 11 months ago
@horseman528 if GOD looks on the heart ??? all HEsees is that the heart it's wicked and a slave to sin you must not know your heart or are underestimating your sin pride is at the root of that I used to believe in free will but now I know better I don't like it but it is what it is so sorry for you people can be decived truely decieved into thinking they made a decition for GOD what foolishness it is PRIDE
patriotsfan1379 10 months ago
@patriotsfan1379 You believe whatever you wish. If you want to believe we have no choice in our salvation and that God by exclusion damns the majority of mankind to hell, I can't stop you. Just a thought, but you might want to punctuate your sentences.
horseman528 10 months ago
@horseman528 take the log out of your eye before looking at somebodys speck am sure you make many mistakes in different areas as well plus don't change the subject we are not talking about that it's not what ever I want to believe it's what the bible teaches but to the natural man the things of GOD are foolishness and he cannot understand them he who has ears to hear let him hear and he who has eyes to see let him see
patriotsfan1379 10 months ago
@patriotsfan1379 zechariah 1:4"Do not be like your fathers to whom the former prophets preached, saying "Thus says the Lord of hosts: "Turn now from your evil ways and your evil deeds." But they did not hear nor heed Me," says the Lord." This verse in Zechariah proves that God gives people a choice to choose salvation but many do not heed Him. In other words, He called but they would not listen. We are all free moral agents. God doesn't force anyone to go to hell. Read Ezekiel18:19-32
horseman528 10 months ago
@horseman528 there are two different types of calls the general call which GOD warns people to repent but knows they won't listen HE does this so that people can never sat HE never told me anything than there is the call to the elect otherwise why would JESUS say he who has ears to hear let him hear unles you think there must have been some people without ears when HE said that arminians always take verses out of context
patriotsfan1379 10 months ago
@horseman528 jeremiha 13;23 can the leopard change its spots
patriotsfan1379 10 months ago
@horseman528 just to think that after just one sin adam n eve ran n hid from GOD and in Jhon the light of the world came but man loved darkness so to say that we who have sin from the moment we are born to think that we would seek GOD when the bible says no one seeks after GOD all have turned away romans ch.3 it is pure pride it is sin i want what i want when i want it n the way i want it in this case salvation in GOD has nothing to do with it it is pure pride
patriotsfan1379 10 months ago
@patriotsfan1379 If a person can't choose to be saved then that means you are not allowed to do anything because that would be pride. Do you then sit around and wait for God to zap you or provide some miraculous experience? And why would God call someone who didn't have freewill? Thats like commanding someone to walk when they're crippled and then getting mad because they didn't walk.
horseman528 10 months ago
@horseman528 so what are you gonna tell GOD here Iam aren't you happy I made a choice for you aren't you glad I came willingly oh I know YOU had to help me some but you didn't help me as much as my neighbor oh how lucky YOU are that am here you do not now your sinfullness do you you want salvation on your own terms but the bible says salvation is of the LORD
patriotsfan1379 10 months ago
@horseman528 YES THAT IS WHAT A PERSON DOES sit around untill GOD comes in ephisians ch.2;1;10
patriotsfan1379 10 months ago
@patriotsfan1379 Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God; and not that he should return from his ways, and live. Jer. 7:13 And now, because ye have done all these works, saith the Lord, and I spake unto you, rising up early and speaking, but ye heard not; and I CALLED YOU, BUT YOU ANSWERED NOT; Again, why would God call someone who didn't have a choice? The answer is because they do indeed have a choice.
horseman528 10 months ago
@horseman528 For we have not always lived in the Spirit, but once we live according to the flesh. And Paul says in (Romans 8:7-8) "because the mind set on the flesh is HOSTILE toward God; for it DOES NOT subject itself to the law of God, for it is NOT EVEN ABLE TO DO SO, and those who are in the flesh CANNOT please God." That's why Christ said "no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him..." God is the one who reveals Himself to us, while we were yet "enemies of God"...
xWhiteLightning 11 months ago
@horseman528 I find no reason to believe the Reformed interpretation of the Bible is somehow "contradictory" to the rest of scripture, but rather I find it completely biblical and consistent with God's revealed word...and do to our depraved and rebellious nature towards God (while we were unconverted), we deserved God's full wrath in Hell. But do to His grace and mercy which He shows to whom He wills (Romans 9:18), He saves us from sin, brings us to Christ, and freely grants us everlasting life!
xWhiteLightning 11 months ago
@horseman528 Secondly, the word "foreknew" in (Romans 8:29) is in greek "proginōskō", which is a verb & NOT the noun (to passively see future events). This is an active verb that God is doing, and whenever God is the subject, and "foreknew" is the verb in the New Testament, the object is personal. Then he(Paul) goes on to say that those whom were foreknew(His elect), were justified and this choice was unconditional (Romans 9:11-13) & before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5).
xWhiteLightning 11 months ago
Carlton Pearson solved this whole problem with his gospel of inclusion.
Bart Ehrman solved the bible problem, by saying it is not the word of God.
By accepting these two solutions, you are free from theological entrapments
k0smon 1 year ago
marvelous video! thanks so much for posting.
toobfunnybunny 1 year ago
WeCanKnowDottCom 1 year ago
Thank you for this!!!
newbirth35 1 year ago
@rpavich Just reread what I wrote.and answer those question. YOU are either Lost or Found and if He seeks and saves that which is Lost. and HE chooses who is lost and who He will find.THOSE who are lost and GOD chooses not to find them are they not with EXCUSE.and in order to be lost does not one have to be "in" a holding place and then wander away lose their way.THIS can go on and on.I hope that ALL means just what it Means does that imply GOD only or does man have the ability to really choose
Ogram1000 1 year ago
who are the elect that you are talking about? everyone thinks that they are the elect even universalist. the verse can be used for everyone, if the elect know that they are suppost to use it for themselves they also know it is fit for all because it was givin to them to testify of.
Transspiritual 1 year ago
@seekyefirst80 Rational is the ability to reason. Look it up in a dictionary. You have imaginary beings at the forefront of your discourse. You demonstrate that you are a slave to irrationality when you bypass this. Wanting to believe something that cannot be demontrated as true is not the act of a rational actor. The Bible is a book of fiction made by men that is continually revised and has no intrinsic authority, only that which irrational persons grant it.
jancivil 1 year ago
@seekyefirst80" You are neither free or rational. The bible says that apart from Christ you are a slave to sin"
And who says that the bible, and your interpretationion of it is rational, or to be taken seriously by a free mind?
Maybe it says so in the bible?? - Lol!!
" We are warned not to trust in our own understanding"
I'd rather trust in my understanding than yours - After all, isn't your decision to accept man's interpretation of "gods will" YOUR understanding??
Tobytrim 1 year ago
@seekyefirst80 we're supposed to have child like faith. when we're in the presence of God we realize how little we actually know. knowledge just puffs up.
SAM135073 1 year ago
@SAM135073 btw i'm not saying we're supposed to be theologically ignorant, but i'm saying that we shouldnt be so consumed with theology and thoughts "about" God that we miss the very presence of God.
SAM135073 1 year ago
@seekyefirst80 i would agree. but the thing about the calvinism vs. armenianism debate, is that it'll never be solved. ever. i would agree that theology is important and that mormons are serving the wrong jesus. i used to start debates about this kinda stuff with my friends and the sole reason behind it all was pretty much just to show how much i know. but the thing is, when your in the presence of the father, theology isnt a concern. we're not supposed to over complicate things
SAM135073 1 year ago
@seekyefirst80 "Your view of GOD is too low, and your view of man is too high."
My view of every and any god ever described to me, is that he is the badly formed imaginings from the minds of human beings , who are not capable of free and rational enquiry.
My view of man comes individually with each human being I meet.
Realistically, you are commenting on my views regarding two types of human being. one who'll believe what he's told to believe, and one who can think for himself.
Tobytrim 1 year ago
seems like yall focus way too much on theology. knowledge just puffs up. and in reality, who cares if you're a calvinist or an armenian. if you love and SERVE Jesus, than who cares. Because theology is just what we know about God, but being humans, you cant know everything about God is really, no ones theology is 100% accurate. Its gonna suck for both armenians and calvinist who spend all there time pushing there theology when they get to heaven and they realize that they didnt get it 100% right
SAM135073 1 year ago
@SAM135073 and i'm a calvinist. not a full five point, but i'm mostly calvinist. i just dont think people should debate it as much, because people lose sight of love, seem big headed, and even think of themselves as very knowledgable. I think we should have a firm belief on key issues, which if your a Christian, you'd have to, and then serve Jesus, and let their theology work itself out. Calvinism isn't Christianity, its a stance on Christianity, as is armeniansim.
SAM135073 1 year ago
@SAM135073
So....you don't think people should debate doctrine because they lose sight of love, yet you posted 5 comments in a row...debating your side of that argument....
Hmmmm....
rpavich 1 year ago
IF, elect Means those who God picks...
What does seek and to save that which is lost mean?
IF you are lost would not Jesus seek them? and if you are not lost...then you are a part of God's family?<right Cause God being GOD<He is sovereign...and no-one would be lost with out Him finding them.<right?!
Ogram1000 1 year ago
@Ogram1000
Both terms "elect" and the phrase "seek and save the lost" are found in the bible...but why do you think that there is some conflict?
Jesus DID come to seek and save the lost....but did he say "every lost person who ever lived and will ever live?"
No...
That's an assumption you've brought in to the text...
And election....well that's just biblical....
rpavich 1 year ago
This is totally a red herring! The reasonable question that is asked by skeptics is : Why does god demand a hideous ETERNAL torture for ridiculously trivial human flaws, many of which wouldn't even be morally wrong outside of his own fiat, or more realistically, that of those who claim his existence?
Who has the right to claim "god" to be moral by human standards?
Tobytrim 1 year ago
@HDell1994 No, but how can you argue with the verses I've shown?
aaa333ify 1 year ago
@aaa333ify Well that was the argument. We are justified by faith in Jesus Christ, the unbelievers that God reveals himself too don't have faith in him because faith is the assurance of things unseen. So if we must have faith to get into Heaven, those who don't have faith won't be able to get into Heaven. And we both see that the unbelievers won't have "faith" in Jesus Christ, therefore they won't be able to get into Heaven.
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
We are saved by the faith OF Christ (pistis Christou) - HIS FAITHFULNESS! We are not saved by what we do, we are saved by what HE DID! We are ALL saved by the blood of the Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sin of the WORLD! Hell completely contradicts the clear teachings of the Bible.
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth Not only does your doctrine contradict itself, but your argument did also. I'm finished.
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994 Where does the Bible say that those who don't have faith will go to "Hell" forever?
aaa333ify 1 year ago
This has really convinced me that I need to really use Lexicons more often.
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
When you read your Lexicon, YOU do not get to pick and choose which definition that YOU like the best. You need to look at the context to determine the exact definition. Your hermeneutics and exegesis are tremendously flawed and corrupt. You have let MAN determine your definition of KOSMOS instead of the Holy Spirit. Now I am sure you will also redefine the word ALL in the above scriptures in 1 Cor 15:22 and Romans 5:18 that I just posted for you.
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth Msg 1) Let's look at 1 Cor 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." If this verse means that in Christ, each and every individual will be made alive, the Bible would contradict itself. You do have a point though, because both of the "all"s are the same Greek word, but they both must have different meanings because all PEOPLE obviously will NOT be made alive in Christ and the scriptures make that extremely clear. Do you believe that NONE will go to Hell?
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
No one will go to Hell. Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sin of the WORLD! You are greatly mistaken, all WILL be made alive in Christ. Every single human that ever lived! Jesus Christ defeated the death of the first Adam for the entire human race! That is why He is called the LAST ADAM! He replaces the first Adam for all mankind. Jesus will be 100% victorious over sin, evil, Satan, and death! EVERYONE will be reconciled to the Father through Christ and His blood.
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth It's ironic that you would believe that Calvinism is a heresy. Your belief implies that believers AND unbelievers will go to Heaven, it also implies that there is no point in putting faith in Jesus Christ. Look at Mt 7:13, "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it." Also, 1 Jn 3:15 "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
The wide path to destruction ( not Hell) is the destruction that sin has on THIS life. Sin destroys families, relationships, communities, and nations. Eternal life is the QUALITY of life that the Holy Spirit brings, again in THIS life. Eternal life is never equated with going to Heaven. If you have other verses that you want me to explain, please let me know. Thanks for writing back.
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth No problem, I do have other verses, but I'd rather you respond to the question I asked on my previous comment (on the false prophets), and for some reason this comment didn't show up in my inbox so you can ignore the "I'd rather you respond to comments directed towards you" part. I do however, have another question. Are you a part of the "emergent church"?
HDell1994 1 year ago
@123qth And in response to this comment, if "eternal life" is equated with a better quality of life on Earth, explain why the unbelievers are the ones that are living wealthy and luxurious lives? Explain why Jesus said things such as " any one who follows me must take up their own CROSS"? Explain Paul said, "If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men MOST TO BE PITIED."1Cor15:19? That doesn't sound like a good quality of life. "All who desire to be godly WILL be PERSECUTED."
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
In 1 Cor 15:19, Paul is confirming what I have been telling you. There is also a future salvation and reconciliation of all mankind in the next life!
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth Comment#1) (Before you respond to this comment, you can respond to my other comments.) You just dug yourself in a hole. I would like to exegete the entire Scripture and show you how it CONTRADICTS all you have just said rather than "confirm" it. This will take two comments, so please read them both. "If we have hoped in Christ" so the "we" must be those with the Holy Spirit that you claimed have a better quality of life in "THIS" life because they are the ones that "hoped in Christ."
HDell1994 1 year ago
@123qth Comment#2) "In this life only" so Paul is saying if those with the Holy Spirit only have eternal life in this life ONLY. "We are of ALL MEN most to be pitied" take a look at the word ALL men! That means, out of believers AND unbelievers, the believers are the MOST to be pitied if there is no future salvation. From your beliefs though, believers have a BETTER quality of life than unbelievers, so shouldn't the unbelievers be most pitied? No! Believers in fact have the WORST quality of life
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
We have the WORST quality of .life????? I have been freed from the bondages to sin and evil! I have been healed and set free! Are you kidding me???? My life is a 1,000,000 times better than when I was an unbeliever!
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth Comment#1) That is true in a sense, but it is also false in a sense. Let's look at it Biblically, if we did not have the worst quality of life, Paul himself (who was an extremely joyful man) would have never said that "we" believers are the MOST to be pitied of ALL men! But then if you look at the next verse you will see where our joy comes from, "But now Christ HAS been raised from the dead," our joy comes from the "hope"&faith we have in Jesus! It is as though we KNOW Jesus is risen!
HDell1994 1 year ago
@123qth Comment#2) I personally would NEVER leave Christ, and am sure that no believer would! It is because our hope in Christ brings us a joy that we had never experienced! But the main point of 1 Cor 15:19 that we need to consider is the word "IF." "IF by some chance, our hope in Christ was false, we are to be pitied most of all men!" Think about it, verses like Mt 13:44-46 show us that believers leave EVERYTHING for the treasure of Christ. But what if our hope in that treausre was false?
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
I left SIN and EVIL and BONDAGE! I would NEVER return to that vomit! Maybe Paul was talking about the persecution they were suffering, which was terrible at that time. At any rate, it has nothing to say about the future reconciliation of all mankind. Do you have any other verses that you want to discuss? I love a good Bible study.
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth Comment#1) I don't have any other verses because you keep trying to slip away from what is taught in THIS verse. "Maybe Paul was talking about the persecution they were suffering"? Is that your way to excuse what is taught in this verse? The Bible teaches that "ALL who desire to live Godly in Christ Jesus (Believers) WILL BE PERSECUTED" - 2 Tim 3:12. And it has ALOT to say about the future reconciliation according to you, since you claimed that eternal life was a "good quality of life."
HDell1994 1 year ago
@123qth Comment#2) You continue to say that you left sin and that you would never return, and praise God! I wouldn't either. But you refuse to go to WHY you wouldn't return to sin. The reason for that is because of the "hope" you have in Jesus! This causes me to go back to the same verse where Paul clearly says, "IF" this hope was false, we are to be most pitied of ALL men. Because we suffered in vain. My point is that eternal life has NOTHING to do with THIS life, that doesn't even make sense.
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
So you do not like your life as a Christian???? Did you have a better life as an unbeliever???? Maybe you never really got saved then!
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth Please, re-read over my comments. "You continue to say that you left sin and that you would never return, and praise God! I WOULDN'T EITHER." Ofcourse my life was worst as an unbeliever, but what you refuse to see is that I'm trying to get you down to WHY believers enjoy their lives more now than when they were unbelievers. The answer to that is because of the HOPE they have in Jesus. So please, don't misinterpret what I've been saying. I'm not attacking your faith, but your doctrine.
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
I would not go back to sin because it is BONDAGE! Sin causes depression, fights, disease, divorce, turmoil, abuse, anger, discontentment, etc etc etc etc! Why in the world would I ever want to return to that filth?????
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth So what would you say to an unbeliever that believes that their sin is good and loves it? Basically, since the Bible teaches that the world hates Jesus and rejects God, who would ever want to get "saved" when they are "already saved" according to your doctrine?
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
I would tell the sinner that he was deceived and then ask him a lot of questions about his current life to show him the truth about the effects of sin on his life.
123qth 1 year ago
@HDell1994
They do not want to get saved! They do not even know what it means to get saved! God has to remove the deception in order for someone to want to get saved! The carnal man CANNOT accept the things of the Spirit because they are Spiritually discerned.
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth So do you believe that God chose the people that WOULD accept him in this life?
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
Yes, I do.
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth Correct me if I'm wrong, but from your comments, I am lead to assume that your doctrine accepts Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Universal Atonement, Irresistable Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints. Because you believe that unbelievers CANNOT accept the things of the Spirit, that God chooses those who will accept Him in this life, that Christ died for every person, that even an atheist cannot resist God's choice, and that someone who still loves his carnal life is not saved.
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
Depravity, but not total. Satan is total depravity. The rest is fairly accurate.
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth I meant "Total" as in ALL of the world was affected by the fall of Adam and were put under the bondage of sin. I guess Universal Depravity would be a better word for it.
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
Ok, yes I agree with that. (Except for Jesus of course!)
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth So our disagreement lies in Universal Atonement, I believe that Jesus atoned only for those that God chose to believe in Him in this life (in Unconditional Election) and that all the others that don't believe in him will be sent to Hell for all eternity while all of those who *did* believe in Him in this life will go to Heaven to be with God for all eternity. If you don't mind I'll send you a message in the future (when I have time) with a well constructed argument on why I believe this.
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
First, I would like you to do a study on Gehenna, the word Jesus used that is translated HELL in most English bibles. Jesus was warning of the death penalty with the body then being tossed into Gehenna, the garbage dump that criminals executed bodies were tossed. The wages of sin is DEATH - not Hell. God told Adam and Eve they would surely DIE - not go to Hell. The Lake of Fire is the second DEATH - not Hell. The last enemy to be destroyed is DEATH. Any questions so far?
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth Interesting, no I have no questions so far, continue on if you had more to say. I'll be sure to study all of this.
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
Ok. It is a LAKE of Fire. A LAKE is not a prison or dungeon. There are no bars on a lake. A lake is used for cleansing, purification and baptism. This is the baptism with Fire that purges away sin death and evil. This is the second death, the death of the carnal nature, the disease of sin. It is the victory of the cross in action against all sin death and evil. Revelation is apocalyptic language and metaphor. Death and Hades are thrown into this Lake of Fire.
123qth 1 year ago
@HDell1994
Also, please note that the apostle Paul NEVER mentions any place called hell to the Gentiles. NOT ONCE! Don't the Gentiles need to know about this terrible place so they can warn their unsaved loved ones when telling them the Gospel? How could Paul possibly not even mention this place? How come it is never mentioned in Acts, Hebrews, John, or 123 John? How is this possible? Have we misunderstood Jesus's use of Gehenna? Yes, I believe we have.
123qth 1 year ago
@HDell1994
What about the eternal punishment in Matt 25:46 in the parable of the sheep and goats? The Greek word for punishment here is KOLASIS which means corrective discipline, like a child gets from a loving Father. It is for training in righteousness. The goats did not reject Christ. There is nothing about the cross or the blood in this Matt 25 parable. No mention of the Gospel at all. Neither in the rich man and Lazarus parable. But that is enough for now. Thanks for listening.
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth Interesting, I will take these comments into consideration and will study this topic more thoroughly.
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
I will pray for you that the Holy Spirit will guide you in your studies and that He opens the eyes of your heart and understanding. It is He that reveals truth to us, as I know you are already aware. Thanks for the conversation.
123qth 1 year ago
Comment removed
HDell1994 1 year ago
@123qth By using Mt 25:46, you just debunked your own argument. "These will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Regardless of your beliefs, the word "eternal" means never ending. Also, with Lazarus in Lk 16:26, on the relationship of those in Hell and in Heaven, it says, "And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those whi wish to come over from here ti you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us."
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
The RESULTS of the corrective discipline in Matt 25:46 are eternal! When God fixes something or someone He does it right and permanently. ETERNAL is also about the QUALITY of the discipline FROM an ETERNAL GOD! The rich man is in HADES, not Gehenna. Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire in Revelation which proves it CANNOT be eternal! I have put 1000's of hours of study into this subject by the mercy of God who has shown me the truth.
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth So we see that none in Hell will pass onto Heaven and vice-versa. Also, Paul DOES mention Hell, have you ever read 2Thess 1:6-9 before? Hebrews does so too, have you ever read Heb 10:26-27? 2Pet 3:9 doesn't need Greek to be proven, think about it's context, he was talking to believers and was letting them know that God WOULD like for everyone to repent, but that doesn't mean that they all will. God has a soverign and passive will. God also wouldn't like people to sin, we clearly do thoug
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
Everlasting DESTRUCTION is happening in 2 Thess at the Lord's second coming, not at the final judgement. This is the destruction of the flesh, the carnal nature. There is NO mention of any place called Hell here nor in Hebrews 10:26. The adversaries in Hebrews 10 are demons and lies. You are greatly misunderstanding the word of God, just like I did for 30 years until God revealed the truth to me.
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth You were correct as a Calvinist. Look at John 17:9, "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom you have given Me; for they are Yours" Why doesn't Jesus pray for the rest of the world? Why does He pray only for those whom God gave Him? Your belief contradicts passages such as John 10. Unbelievers WILL go to Hell, read Rev 21:8. The fire in the Gehenna never stopped and it was symbolic to the never ending torments of Hell where the fire is never quenched
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
I already explained that the Lake of Fire is the second DEATH - not Hell. It is the death of sin and evil, Hades and death. It is the baptism with fire that cleanses and purifies from sin. The fire that is never quenched is in Gehenna, the garbage dump where they never extinguish fires. They keep them burning on purpose. It is not talking about hell. Hell is a false teaching.
123qth 1 year ago
Comment removed
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
Yes , it is CORRECTION and its RESULTS are eternal! When God CORRECTS someone , it is PERMANENT! The fire purifies and cleanses from unrighteousness! God's fire is a refining fire - hence CORRECTION that never fails! He STAYS CORRECT forever!
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth I reposted it, it had a small typo and the "penalty" part was removed. Re-read it. And also, what you said doesn't sound too much like the definition to me.
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994
TIMORIA is the Greek word for "vindictive punishment". Kolasis is the Greek word for corrective punishment as in discilplining a child. I have been researching this for over 5 years now. I have studied numerous Greek grammars and lexicons.
123qth 1 year ago
@123qth
coerrection - disciplining a child
123qth 1 year ago