Really interested if anyone can direct me to any real evidence that any climate change is anything more that a natural cycle, I would appreciate that.
Cap and trader is a method for the rich to impoverish the poor and enshrine economic inequality for generations to come. Read Henry George and understand the issues of monopoly of natural capital - the solution is Land Value Tax
I'm a pilot. I HAVE TO pay attention to the weather and I can tell you something is up. Its not really that hard to understand. You just have to look for yourself and stop letting your news outlets and churches think for you. Just because there is an opportunity to profit off a situation does NOT discredit it. Ask anyone working in Alaska or the Canadian Territories. Not your local gas attendant or liqueur store clerk.
TRNN should not refer to the climate change/AGW deniers as "skeptics". There's nothing skeptical about the belief that scientists the world over have for decades conspired in concocting a grand hoax at the behest of governments. There's nothing skeptical about dismissing science facts on the basis of ideology, wishful thinking, ignorance, incredulity or just bad reasoning.
A true capitalist would finger fuck his eight year old daughter and bottle her tears if there were a market for it. Does anyone really believe these people would 'fix' the environment if they can make a buck out of it being in shambles?
Please, reply and moan about my comment if you are a slimey indoctrinated pile of human garbage who refuses to critically analyse the madness of money and markets. The rest of you, "reject the system dictating the norms" and have a glorious day.
Climate change is indeed the most urgent global problem, but hardly the only one. Unless the debate is focused (again) upon the underlying cause of ecosystem destruction, all sorts of pollution, and social conflict, we are on the wrong track. In other words, unless the irrational growth commitment is not challenged present civilization will inevitably collapse.
Climate change is indeed the most urgent global problem, but hardly the only one. Unless the debate is focused (again) upon the underlying cause of ecosystem destruction, all sorts of pollution, and social conflict, we are on the wrong track. In other words, unless the irrational growth commitment is not challenged present civilization will inevitably collapse - peppered with a great portion of barbarism.
@mrfrednoname Since sea levels peaked in 2010, do you think one year of data constitutes a trend? Do you have any idea why sea levels have dropped in the last year?
@mrfrednoname Fred, let's assume they are lying about climate change (they're not and yes the climate is changing and WE are the cause) and that it is just a conspiracy to make money through cap and trade (it is, the solution isn't cap and trade it's amazingly abundant green renewable decentralized energy sources that would make a lot of rich power mongers obsolete) the question is why bother getting up to vote for corporate shills when you can be working on your personal power plant?
@elbowbiter1 Yes the climate is changing, has been for 4 billion years. It has not been proven we are the cause however. Why should I spend 10 - 20 thousand on my own plant when i can spend 150 dollars to buy it from someone else?
@mrfrednoname The more we spend on decentralized energy, the cheaper it will get. Even if you cant wrap your head around the destructive forces of capitalism, money and markets. Just think about the freedom you'd experience in NOT having to pay a cold, mindless corporation for something you need to survive. Then being able to add to it other free survival things like food. The next step is to build a hydroponic food garden/textile plant too. The less you pay corps the less they have sway.
@elbowbiter1 The concept of economies of scale is a captialist idea. The tools and supplies you would need to build the power generation equipment will need to come from a big corporation. Not to mention parts for repairs.
Now are you going to give me the 10- 20000 dollars to build this power generation system???
@mrfrednoname Like I said, the more you spend the cheaper it gets and as this catches on... there will be an exponential decrease in demand for oil (with it really never being disused but rather being used for increasingly less). To make it really work, energy surpluses or raw matterials generated independantly should be given away. When everyone is doing this... you can bring the troops home, close down a lot of grocery stores, large corporate farms, and the lumber industry (by using hemp).
@elbowbiter1 Thus tossing millions out of a job who couldn't grow a carrot. I guess some of them could work at the large corporate factories required build and maintain these power systems. You still haven't told me where i will get the money for these power systems since they will not be free.
@mrfrednoname Where will you get the money? Solar cells get cheaper by the year. Soon they will be ubiquitous and nearly worthless while massively more powerful. Where will you get more replacement parts? Soon automated factories will produce them with energy so abundant that materials will be virtually worthless. You break something, a machine (powered by the sun) will fix it or replace it, free. This machine may be a printer sized box in your office. (see: Eric Drexler, nano tech assembler).
@mrfrednoname What I am failing to articulate is that as the process occures, the system will be coming apart. Millions will loose their jobs and be supported by those that already have the means. New industries will most likely emerge and these people will find work in them. All the while, people will be becoming ever more independant. One day the cost of resources will be the time it takes to replace those resources. It will be a concrete objective value and not an abstract delusion like $.
@mrfrednoname I have told you... from John Q's like me and you saving and spending on these items. Those that can will... those that can't will have to wait for the technology to become more abundant and powerful. Just like you couldn't afford a cellphone in 1988 but have one or two right now. I can't make it any plainer than that. Technology is undermining capitalism. Technology is making us more independant while bringing us together. It's technology or back to the stone age. You decide.
@elbowbiter1 Okay so you need a captialistic idea like economies of scale to allow the cost of a product i have no need for to get low enough for me to buy it, despite the fact that I probably still will have no need to buy it. Trust me, the economies of scale will never kick in because nobody wants the product. Thats why solar power companies are going bankrupt left right and center. Its you guys who want to shut things down to the stone age.
@mrfrednoname No, Kurzweil's law of accelerating returns. It's the ultimate in describing how 'economies of scale' have existed since before (and most likely after) capitalism when describing information technology. As to the rest of your comment... you have no clue what you are saying beyond what fox news has to say about the matter. Energy is everything my friend and solar is more abundant, cleaner, and renewable than petrol. When petrol runs out, it's the stonage or new energy. You decide.
@elbowbiter1 You have still not explained how you will pay for this plan of yours. It relies on people doing something that people have never done. Buy stuff that is more expensive. You would have to force them to buy something they don't need when money is tight. Oh and calling something another name doesn't make it any less a captialist idea.
@mrfrednoname You're poor right, band together with your neighbors and save up for a solar cell. Then more, until you are exporting energy. Now you are making money. Add a hydroponics garden... now you don't pay for groceries. You need this to ease poverty. As for Kurzweil's law. Again, NO, it is a law that defines the UNDERLYING mechanism for why things get more abundant cheaper and more powerful. It is NOT the PROPERTY of Capitalism. It existed before capitalism it will exist after it is dead.
@mrfrednoname I don't give a shit about economies of scale. I am not talking about economies of scale. I am talking about accelerated returns. The true reason why technologies tend to double in power and half in cost. Guess what, it is INDEPENDANT of the political economic system. Even if all you can manage is 25cents a month... with enough community saving that kind of coin... you can eventually afford some panels. ESPECIALLY given the accelerated returns. Now quit whining, get up and fight!
@mrfrednoname So you admit that you were being obtuse and arguing for the sake of self gratification. When you can't attack the plan any longer you flippantly walk away. It isn't a scheme, it is happening as we speak. You will, one day soon, have a decentralized energy source in more than just your calculator. You will remember this conversation and say, 'fuck I was an ignorant fellow, now my life is much better. Food and clothing for free, I need to work less and less, more family time.' ;)
@elbowbiter1 No you never presented a full plan. You never stated the startup cost. Your "plan" relies on economies of scale and other capitalist ideas that you refuse to acknowledge, and in the end promises something for nothing for everyone. Its unworkable. I will not waste money on a wish based fantacy.
@mrfrednoname I gave you the general plan. It isn't fantasy it is happening. Do you think solar panels, geothermal wells, and wind turbines are mythological? Do you think they aren't being bought and sold? Do you think the technology isn't improving? You see, your ego wont allow you to accept what I am saying even though it is plainly obvious. You believe in the fantasy that you must always be right and that being wrong is an insult. It isn't the end of the world to be wrong, its a beginning.
@elbowbiter1 Lets see, for your plan to sucede, technology must be developed that doesn't exist. Money must be found that doesn't exist. People must buy a product they don't want. You promise the result will force millions out of work, and that they will be replaced by robots. Everyone must be willing to grow thier own food, and live off some magical exchange system. Considering alomost nothing of that exists yet, you want me to buy 20,000 dollars worth of gear in the HOPE, that this cont..
@mrfrednoname that this will kick off the captialist concept of economies of scale to reduce the cost more than any other product in history has been reduced by this concept.
And you think the problem with me not doing it is my ego???
@mrfrednoname Your ego won't let you be civil. Your ego won't let you see the validity of my argument. Your ego won't let you google search accelerated returns and realize it isn't economy of scale. Why am I telling you this if you clearly don't want to do anything but argue? Well I suppose that's my ego, so this conversation is over my friend. You'll see when it happens my friend, capitalism can't last in the face of all the up coming technologies.
@elbowbiter1 I asked you many times to explain where the moeny would come from to fund this, you failed to provide a workable plan. Thats not my ego failing, thats you. IF the technology appears, it will be captialism that will use it. Marxism always fails.
@mrfrednoname Well what do you want to hear, I've told you VERY clearly several times and each time you willfully refused to grasp it. You willfully must be doing it because I made it so clear. The technology is here!?! Solar panels exist, geothermal wells exist!!! You can purchase them today!!! LoL Egad!!! are you just fucking with me or are you that ridiculous? Capitalism will start it off and eventually we'll be a technological anarcho commune. Technology is killing capitalism.
@elbowbiter1 Okay where exactly can i purchase a geothermal well??? Solar cells are very expensive and you never explained where the money comes from for enough people to buy them so that economies of scale can start to kick in. You just stated that it will. I don't have 10,000 - 20,000 dollars to buy them today so they might as well not exist.
In fact most solar cell plants go out of business even with 500 million dollar loans from the white house.
@mrfrednoname LoL Do you even read what I am writing before you continue with the ranting. Drop the economy of scale nonsense. LAW OF ACCELERATED RETURNS look it up please. Where can you buy alternative green energy sources. GOOGLE IT! Jesus fuck, if you can't do a google search how little will you do to inform yourself about anything? One solar cell outfit went tits up after receiving a gov't hand out. ONE. Dozens remain highly profitable, for now. Technology will destroy money and markets.
@mrfrednoname You'll love it, just kick back and enjoy our energy abundant future. You Kiwis will do exceptionally fine with all that tidal energy you can harvest there. Take it easy. Sorry I couldn't stop you from being a cunt.
@mrfrednoname yep, it's my plan and it's doomed to failure. Fuck you are a well informed fellow! I should have listened to you from the get go. How's that ego feeling now, winner.
@mrfrednoname It defines your defeatist attitude and your unwillingness to consider my arguments. It perpetuates your need to reply with from-the-hip arguments even though I've addressed them all. It is your anger that I may have a point that you don't want to except that makes you think that some how you are inferior to me; and thus, you must at all costs prove me wrong or make me seem stupid. I have answered your question many times, go back and see what I said. ;) This conversation is over.
@mrfrednoname Solar panels don't exist??? Money doesn't exist??? People don't want clean renewable energy??? The end result would be a resource based society. No one would work, there would be no money. You should go learn about them and how they work. Everything is run by machines. The technology to automate nearly everything exists already. There will be people in the helping professions still I think but it will be voluntary. There is already a lot of volunteers. These are blind objections.
Everything that you can think of, any problem we might get in this world will never ever be solved because the solutions of these problems don't seem to be profitable by the market. As soon as you come up with anything the "market"-wheels start running, and ppl supporting this sick market and ppl disapproving are at each others throats, the problem becomes secondary and the fight about who is "right" becomes the priority. This aways happen, over and over again.. we never learn anything..
@kaxitaksi This "fight" is a dead end and is usually won by the capitalists and the money just because they have the money to support any stupid idea they want and will profit on. The market don't give a fuk about you and me, it don't give a damn about the lives and nature of this planet. It ONLY takes into consideration what is profitable and their "responsibility to the share holders. This will cost us our resources, our planet and at the end all of our lives even those share holders :))
Everything that you can think of, any problem we might get in this world will never ever be solved because the solutions of these problems don't seem to be profitable by the market. As soon as you come up with anything the "market"-wheels start running, and ppl supporting this sick market and ppl disapproving are at each others throats, the problem becomes secondary and the fight about who is "right" becomes the priority. This aways happen, over and over again.. we never learn anything..
It's more likely that the deniers are 'liars' protecting corporate interests. They should be required to take science fact tests with results posted publicly, and their ability to be leaders should be contingent on successfully passing the science tests and applying the science reality to leadership. ClimateProgress . org -- ClimateRealityProject . org -- 'Deniers' have completely destroyed the credibility of their 'party'.
I just had an epiphany while reading these comments. I realized that even those people who think climate change is a lie, a scam, can realize that pollution is harmful and can join in a struggle against a horribly horribly harmful local polluter!How dumb of me not to have realized that before. Deniers maybe can't deal with the WHOLE problem, but they can certainly attack local Bad Guys more agressively than the courteous left would.
@grandmachristine42 (continued) If this could happen, wouldn't it seperate the deniers on the top, with their evil lying destructive greedy intent, from the ones who fell asleep listening to Coast To Coast and got inadvertantly miseducated? The power ones would get more and more angry at the disobedient ones and start calling them shills and commies and reptiles and all; the foot soldiers would be saying "My kid's got asthma!" Ah, I guess it's just a fantasy. . .
Maybe they cant predict exactly what will happen because their science is bull huh? Oh but know our scientists have figured it all out. There's no proof of that but they keep saying it in the media so it must be true. And who finance these scientist? Same as the politicians....
You bunch of emotional fools did not think this true. You been propagandized with environmental issues for decade and you cant think strait. All that is come out of this is more centralization of power in fewer hands.
The problem is the accurate predictive ability of the simulations. The science was presented as fact without running the simulation over several years and then it became apparent that there were huge corporate give aways involved in cap and trade. No wonder skeptics are winning the day. had the issue not been politicized by the Gorites, people might be more receptive but when someone tries to sell you a pig in a poke, it merits questions. Most Americans want a clean environment and governance.
Global climate change is a sham! I want to make money! I am a true capitalist and FUCK the lives of my children and grand children. I NEED to alieve my status anxieties TODAY! I don't care if billions die, I got to have my dream home and my dream car! That's what matters, you pinko commie Real News Fans! Buying silly shit we don't need and out doing our neighbors in the process. Fuck the environment let's drive this world to hell, in fury, so that I can look good while I die screaming!
Industry needs regulations to reduce its pollutants along with real enforcement of the regulations. To focus on carbon emissions is just setting up a straw choice.
Say NO to Smart Meters! Protect your health!
With the criminals running the world how do these academics think real positive change is going to be achieved.
They are paid whores to spout rhetoric. Call anyone say Paul Jay?
I always told people, don't argue about whether or not global warming exists. Argue that Cap and Trade will only send more U.S. to China, a country with no pollution laws.
Okay so something is going to happen somewhere, some time? That's the scientific answer? PASS THE LAW NOW!!! EVERYBODY STOP BREATHING!!! It's because of the global cooling... wait it's global warming... wait now its climate change... actually it's really climate justice with poor people so you better take us seriously. FIGHT REAL POLLUTION AND REAL INJUSTICE YOU DONKEY.
@BenjaminFranklin2u I guess it's a subject that beggars the intellect and brings out my p!ssed off inner teenager... When some close minded party line toeing warmist starts spewing tripe like there is no scientific disagreement or that they are receiving unfair treatment in the media when in fact there is very valid disagreement and the coverage has, and continues to be, disproportionately weighted in his favour the whole conversation becomes ridiculous and counterproductive... thus... DONKEY!
@TR4iN How many scientific journals have you read about climate change? Can you name one of the thousands of professional science academies and associations that disputes man made climate change? I can name HUNDREDS that support it. The National academy of science and American Physical Society says it is certain. This is settled science. It is only corporate propaganda and hired guns in the media and lack of science knowledge by the public that makes it a controversy.
@TR4iN I have read the emails in context. Have you or do you just suck the tits of petroleum news network? Google "climate scientists cleared" and "newspapers retract 'climategate' claims". Your news sources are dead wrong propaganda pieces and you are a little puppet man who does not know the first thing about finding the truth. Some people are so gullible.
@megamogx Agreed; imagine what could have been done had the trillions not been wasted on the war in Iraq and Afghanistan - high speed rail, fibre optic connection to every home (telecommuting helps by getting people off the road), investments into future technology etc. So many opportunities wasted :-(
"cap and trade" was a stupid policy to begin with. Not only does it do absolutely nothing to positively effect climate change, it creates another seedy business deal that will undoubtedly would have been passed on to the consumers.
Subsidy actual technologies and research and you will see a change. And dont be naive either and think that every green business is an actual "business".
We dont need another Solyndra if we want to get ahead.
We don't need technology, we can't sit on our asses and wait for that kind of a "miracle" that will allow us to keep our hyper consumerist way of life and not screw our ecosystem. If we want to have a sustainable way of life we will have to pay, a lot... But we have to do it, every single day we use our car instead of a bike, bus or train, we're being utterly irresponsible towards other people let alone ourselves and our children...
Nissan Leaf ect will satesfy the needs of 90% of car uses. So why aren't 90% of the new car sale Nissan Leaf? There are several ways to answer that, but what it boils down to is a lack of incentives. If the price for a litre of petrol was 10EUR people would never buy a petrol car again.
So cap & trade will pressure the polluting companies to go green, or else they will eventually loose their customers to green products.
Really interested if anyone can direct me to any real evidence that any climate change is anything more that a natural cycle, I would appreciate that.
PBrofaith 5 months ago
Yes, yes, yes. And now pay triliards of dollars to fight that imaginary threat.
zeheos 5 months ago
Cap and trader is a method for the rich to impoverish the poor and enshrine economic inequality for generations to come. Read Henry George and understand the issues of monopoly of natural capital - the solution is Land Value Tax
peetasmith1 5 months ago
Global warming is happening and we are the cause. Plain and simple. Anyone who disagrees needs to step into reality.
dfg93353 5 months ago
@dfg93353 based on what data? The data i have seen is questionable at best.
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
I'm a pilot. I HAVE TO pay attention to the weather and I can tell you something is up. Its not really that hard to understand. You just have to look for yourself and stop letting your news outlets and churches think for you. Just because there is an opportunity to profit off a situation does NOT discredit it. Ask anyone working in Alaska or the Canadian Territories. Not your local gas attendant or liqueur store clerk.
B4its2L8guy 5 months ago
TRNN should not refer to the climate change/AGW deniers as "skeptics". There's nothing skeptical about the belief that scientists the world over have for decades conspired in concocting a grand hoax at the behest of governments. There's nothing skeptical about dismissing science facts on the basis of ideology, wishful thinking, ignorance, incredulity or just bad reasoning.
Kropotkin2000 5 months ago
A true capitalist would finger fuck his eight year old daughter and bottle her tears if there were a market for it. Does anyone really believe these people would 'fix' the environment if they can make a buck out of it being in shambles?
Please, reply and moan about my comment if you are a slimey indoctrinated pile of human garbage who refuses to critically analyse the madness of money and markets. The rest of you, "reject the system dictating the norms" and have a glorious day.
elbowbiter1 5 months ago 2
@elbowbiter1 I agree
bonnevie9 5 months ago
@bonnevie9 Then imagine me tipping my hat to you, BonneVie9. May the jack boots of your oppressors never find your groin.
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
Climate change is indeed the most urgent global problem, but hardly the only one. Unless the debate is focused (again) upon the underlying cause of ecosystem destruction, all sorts of pollution, and social conflict, we are on the wrong track. In other words, unless the irrational growth commitment is not challenged present civilization will inevitably collapse.
Alexopolux 5 months ago
Climate change is indeed the most urgent global problem, but hardly the only one. Unless the debate is focused (again) upon the underlying cause of ecosystem destruction, all sorts of pollution, and social conflict, we are on the wrong track. In other words, unless the irrational growth commitment is not challenged present civilization will inevitably collapse - peppered with a great portion of barbarism.
Alexopolux 5 months ago
Climate "justice" = gimme more money.
These idiots do know that ocean levels are currently dropping right? Nahh that would mean they get less money
The dollar bills yo...
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname "currently" says nothing about trends, and only trends are relevant.
Kropotkin2000 5 months ago
@Kropotkin2000 The trend is the sea levels are falling.
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname Since sea levels peaked in 2010, do you think one year of data constitutes a trend? Do you have any idea why sea levels have dropped in the last year?
Kropotkin2000 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname Fred, let's assume they are lying about climate change (they're not and yes the climate is changing and WE are the cause) and that it is just a conspiracy to make money through cap and trade (it is, the solution isn't cap and trade it's amazingly abundant green renewable decentralized energy sources that would make a lot of rich power mongers obsolete) the question is why bother getting up to vote for corporate shills when you can be working on your personal power plant?
elbowbiter1 5 months ago 2
@elbowbiter1 Yes the climate is changing, has been for 4 billion years. It has not been proven we are the cause however. Why should I spend 10 - 20 thousand on my own plant when i can spend 150 dollars to buy it from someone else?
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname The more we spend on decentralized energy, the cheaper it will get. Even if you cant wrap your head around the destructive forces of capitalism, money and markets. Just think about the freedom you'd experience in NOT having to pay a cold, mindless corporation for something you need to survive. Then being able to add to it other free survival things like food. The next step is to build a hydroponic food garden/textile plant too. The less you pay corps the less they have sway.
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
@elbowbiter1 The concept of economies of scale is a captialist idea. The tools and supplies you would need to build the power generation equipment will need to come from a big corporation. Not to mention parts for repairs.
Now are you going to give me the 10- 20000 dollars to build this power generation system???
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname Like I said, the more you spend the cheaper it gets and as this catches on... there will be an exponential decrease in demand for oil (with it really never being disused but rather being used for increasingly less). To make it really work, energy surpluses or raw matterials generated independantly should be given away. When everyone is doing this... you can bring the troops home, close down a lot of grocery stores, large corporate farms, and the lumber industry (by using hemp).
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
@elbowbiter1 Thus tossing millions out of a job who couldn't grow a carrot. I guess some of them could work at the large corporate factories required build and maintain these power systems. You still haven't told me where i will get the money for these power systems since they will not be free.
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname Where will you get the money? Solar cells get cheaper by the year. Soon they will be ubiquitous and nearly worthless while massively more powerful. Where will you get more replacement parts? Soon automated factories will produce them with energy so abundant that materials will be virtually worthless. You break something, a machine (powered by the sun) will fix it or replace it, free. This machine may be a printer sized box in your office. (see: Eric Drexler, nano tech assembler).
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
@elbowbiter1 Thus throwing millions more out of work.... And you have yet to explain where this money comes from. Cheaper is not free.
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
Comment removed
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname What I am failing to articulate is that as the process occures, the system will be coming apart. Millions will loose their jobs and be supported by those that already have the means. New industries will most likely emerge and these people will find work in them. All the while, people will be becoming ever more independant. One day the cost of resources will be the time it takes to replace those resources. It will be a concrete objective value and not an abstract delusion like $.
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
@elbowbiter1 No what you fail to articulate is where the funding will come from to fund this process.
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname I have told you... from John Q's like me and you saving and spending on these items. Those that can will... those that can't will have to wait for the technology to become more abundant and powerful. Just like you couldn't afford a cellphone in 1988 but have one or two right now. I can't make it any plainer than that. Technology is undermining capitalism. Technology is making us more independant while bringing us together. It's technology or back to the stone age. You decide.
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
@elbowbiter1 Okay so you need a captialistic idea like economies of scale to allow the cost of a product i have no need for to get low enough for me to buy it, despite the fact that I probably still will have no need to buy it. Trust me, the economies of scale will never kick in because nobody wants the product. Thats why solar power companies are going bankrupt left right and center. Its you guys who want to shut things down to the stone age.
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname No, Kurzweil's law of accelerating returns. It's the ultimate in describing how 'economies of scale' have existed since before (and most likely after) capitalism when describing information technology. As to the rest of your comment... you have no clue what you are saying beyond what fox news has to say about the matter. Energy is everything my friend and solar is more abundant, cleaner, and renewable than petrol. When petrol runs out, it's the stonage or new energy. You decide.
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
@elbowbiter1 You have still not explained how you will pay for this plan of yours. It relies on people doing something that people have never done. Buy stuff that is more expensive. You would have to force them to buy something they don't need when money is tight. Oh and calling something another name doesn't make it any less a captialist idea.
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname You're poor right, band together with your neighbors and save up for a solar cell. Then more, until you are exporting energy. Now you are making money. Add a hydroponics garden... now you don't pay for groceries. You need this to ease poverty. As for Kurzweil's law. Again, NO, it is a law that defines the UNDERLYING mechanism for why things get more abundant cheaper and more powerful. It is NOT the PROPERTY of Capitalism. It existed before capitalism it will exist after it is dead.
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
@elbowbiter1 We don't have the money to do that. You are talking thousands and WE DONT HAVE IT.
Economies of scale is a valid concept of captialism. i know it is because it fails under communism.
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname I don't give a shit about economies of scale. I am not talking about economies of scale. I am talking about accelerated returns. The true reason why technologies tend to double in power and half in cost. Guess what, it is INDEPENDANT of the political economic system. Even if all you can manage is 25cents a month... with enough community saving that kind of coin... you can eventually afford some panels. ESPECIALLY given the accelerated returns. Now quit whining, get up and fight!
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
@elbowbiter1 No. I have no intrest in your scheme. I will not waste one cent on it.
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname So you admit that you were being obtuse and arguing for the sake of self gratification. When you can't attack the plan any longer you flippantly walk away. It isn't a scheme, it is happening as we speak. You will, one day soon, have a decentralized energy source in more than just your calculator. You will remember this conversation and say, 'fuck I was an ignorant fellow, now my life is much better. Food and clothing for free, I need to work less and less, more family time.' ;)
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
@elbowbiter1 No you never presented a full plan. You never stated the startup cost. Your "plan" relies on economies of scale and other capitalist ideas that you refuse to acknowledge, and in the end promises something for nothing for everyone. Its unworkable. I will not waste money on a wish based fantacy.
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname I gave you the general plan. It isn't fantasy it is happening. Do you think solar panels, geothermal wells, and wind turbines are mythological? Do you think they aren't being bought and sold? Do you think the technology isn't improving? You see, your ego wont allow you to accept what I am saying even though it is plainly obvious. You believe in the fantasy that you must always be right and that being wrong is an insult. It isn't the end of the world to be wrong, its a beginning.
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
@elbowbiter1 Lets see, for your plan to sucede, technology must be developed that doesn't exist. Money must be found that doesn't exist. People must buy a product they don't want. You promise the result will force millions out of work, and that they will be replaced by robots. Everyone must be willing to grow thier own food, and live off some magical exchange system. Considering alomost nothing of that exists yet, you want me to buy 20,000 dollars worth of gear in the HOPE, that this cont..
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname that this will kick off the captialist concept of economies of scale to reduce the cost more than any other product in history has been reduced by this concept.
And you think the problem with me not doing it is my ego???
Tell you what, you go ahead.
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname Your ego won't let you be civil. Your ego won't let you see the validity of my argument. Your ego won't let you google search accelerated returns and realize it isn't economy of scale. Why am I telling you this if you clearly don't want to do anything but argue? Well I suppose that's my ego, so this conversation is over my friend. You'll see when it happens my friend, capitalism can't last in the face of all the up coming technologies.
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
@elbowbiter1 I asked you many times to explain where the moeny would come from to fund this, you failed to provide a workable plan. Thats not my ego failing, thats you. IF the technology appears, it will be captialism that will use it. Marxism always fails.
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname Well what do you want to hear, I've told you VERY clearly several times and each time you willfully refused to grasp it. You willfully must be doing it because I made it so clear. The technology is here!?! Solar panels exist, geothermal wells exist!!! You can purchase them today!!! LoL Egad!!! are you just fucking with me or are you that ridiculous? Capitalism will start it off and eventually we'll be a technological anarcho commune. Technology is killing capitalism.
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
@elbowbiter1 Okay where exactly can i purchase a geothermal well??? Solar cells are very expensive and you never explained where the money comes from for enough people to buy them so that economies of scale can start to kick in. You just stated that it will. I don't have 10,000 - 20,000 dollars to buy them today so they might as well not exist.
In fact most solar cell plants go out of business even with 500 million dollar loans from the white house.
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname LoL Do you even read what I am writing before you continue with the ranting. Drop the economy of scale nonsense. LAW OF ACCELERATED RETURNS look it up please. Where can you buy alternative green energy sources. GOOGLE IT! Jesus fuck, if you can't do a google search how little will you do to inform yourself about anything? One solar cell outfit went tits up after receiving a gov't hand out. ONE. Dozens remain highly profitable, for now. Technology will destroy money and markets.
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
@elbowbiter1 See you still haven't explain... oh never mind.. Enjhoy your failure. Bye.
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname You'll love it, just kick back and enjoy our energy abundant future. You Kiwis will do exceptionally fine with all that tidal energy you can harvest there. Take it easy. Sorry I couldn't stop you from being a cunt.
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
@elbowbiter1 Sorry you couldn't see you plan is doomed to failure because its not complete.
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname yep, it's my plan and it's doomed to failure. Fuck you are a well informed fellow! I should have listened to you from the get go. How's that ego feeling now, winner.
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
@elbowbiter1 Whats my ego got to do with your failure to have startup money for your plan?
mrfrednoname 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname It defines your defeatist attitude and your unwillingness to consider my arguments. It perpetuates your need to reply with from-the-hip arguments even though I've addressed them all. It is your anger that I may have a point that you don't want to except that makes you think that some how you are inferior to me; and thus, you must at all costs prove me wrong or make me seem stupid. I have answered your question many times, go back and see what I said. ;) This conversation is over.
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
@mrfrednoname Solar panels don't exist??? Money doesn't exist??? People don't want clean renewable energy??? The end result would be a resource based society. No one would work, there would be no money. You should go learn about them and how they work. Everything is run by machines. The technology to automate nearly everything exists already. There will be people in the helping professions still I think but it will be voluntary. There is already a lot of volunteers. These are blind objections.
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Everything that you can think of, any problem we might get in this world will never ever be solved because the solutions of these problems don't seem to be profitable by the market. As soon as you come up with anything the "market"-wheels start running, and ppl supporting this sick market and ppl disapproving are at each others throats, the problem becomes secondary and the fight about who is "right" becomes the priority. This aways happen, over and over again.. we never learn anything..
kaxitaksi 5 months ago
@kaxitaksi This "fight" is a dead end and is usually won by the capitalists and the money just because they have the money to support any stupid idea they want and will profit on. The market don't give a fuk about you and me, it don't give a damn about the lives and nature of this planet. It ONLY takes into consideration what is profitable and their "responsibility to the share holders. This will cost us our resources, our planet and at the end all of our lives even those share holders :))
kaxitaksi 5 months ago
Everything that you can think of, any problem we might get in this world will never ever be solved because the solutions of these problems don't seem to be profitable by the market. As soon as you come up with anything the "market"-wheels start running, and ppl supporting this sick market and ppl disapproving are at each others throats, the problem becomes secondary and the fight about who is "right" becomes the priority. This aways happen, over and over again.. we never learn anything..
kaxitaksi 5 months ago
It's more likely that the deniers are 'liars' protecting corporate interests. They should be required to take science fact tests with results posted publicly, and their ability to be leaders should be contingent on successfully passing the science tests and applying the science reality to leadership. ClimateProgress . org -- ClimateRealityProject . org -- 'Deniers' have completely destroyed the credibility of their 'party'.
gregjalbert 5 months ago
Another Socilist that wants us to be a 3rd world country.
doncarlsanders 5 months ago
I just had an epiphany while reading these comments. I realized that even those people who think climate change is a lie, a scam, can realize that pollution is harmful and can join in a struggle against a horribly horribly harmful local polluter!How dumb of me not to have realized that before. Deniers maybe can't deal with the WHOLE problem, but they can certainly attack local Bad Guys more agressively than the courteous left would.
grandmachristine42 5 months ago
@grandmachristine42 (continued) If this could happen, wouldn't it seperate the deniers on the top, with their evil lying destructive greedy intent, from the ones who fell asleep listening to Coast To Coast and got inadvertantly miseducated? The power ones would get more and more angry at the disobedient ones and start calling them shills and commies and reptiles and all; the foot soldiers would be saying "My kid's got asthma!" Ah, I guess it's just a fantasy. . .
grandmachristine42 5 months ago
Maybe they cant predict exactly what will happen because their science is bull huh? Oh but know our scientists have figured it all out. There's no proof of that but they keep saying it in the media so it must be true. And who finance these scientist? Same as the politicians....
You bunch of emotional fools did not think this true. You been propagandized with environmental issues for decade and you cant think strait. All that is come out of this is more centralization of power in fewer hands.
MustacheVerra 5 months ago
cunts. you're gonna burn!!
adamkadmon1977 5 months ago
The problem is the accurate predictive ability of the simulations. The science was presented as fact without running the simulation over several years and then it became apparent that there were huge corporate give aways involved in cap and trade. No wonder skeptics are winning the day. had the issue not been politicized by the Gorites, people might be more receptive but when someone tries to sell you a pig in a poke, it merits questions. Most Americans want a clean environment and governance.
McamelyneII 5 months ago
Global climate change is a sham! I want to make money! I am a true capitalist and FUCK the lives of my children and grand children. I NEED to alieve my status anxieties TODAY! I don't care if billions die, I got to have my dream home and my dream car! That's what matters, you pinko commie Real News Fans! Buying silly shit we don't need and out doing our neighbors in the process. Fuck the environment let's drive this world to hell, in fury, so that I can look good while I die screaming!
elbowbiter1 5 months ago
5:23 Paul Jay: Why is one plant so much lower than the other?"
The Real Answer::
POWER PLANTS and REFINERIES are two Completely Different things!
The only thing "Concrete" Thing in that example was how solid the BS sounded when it hit the ground after dropping from the guests mouth.
HolisticPlantHealth 5 months ago
12:40 you hit the nail on the head
vrd180 5 months ago
Amazingly well put, all of it, I cannot believe there is so many sceptic people in US and that this video has so many dislikes...
Anyway thanks TRN that was very good...
sinekonata 5 months ago
Industry needs regulations to reduce its pollutants along with real enforcement of the regulations. To focus on carbon emissions is just setting up a straw choice.
Say NO to Smart Meters! Protect your health!
With the criminals running the world how do these academics think real positive change is going to be achieved.
They are paid whores to spout rhetoric. Call anyone say Paul Jay?
911truthncDotOrg 5 months ago
The State of Climate Science - Richard Lindzen, Atmospheric physicist
watch?v=Plo18WEYTBI
911truthncDotOrg 5 months ago
@911truthncDotOrg Hey thanks for the link body. ;-)
MustacheVerra 5 months ago
Until these CORRUPT psychos allow alternative energy COMPETITION let them DRINK OIL!
If they really cared about anything other than MONEY we'd have alternatives like HEMP or hydrogen from WATER or MAGNETICS!
UnoRaza 5 months ago
Oh, I see, instead of just putting filters on the Torrence and other plants we have a GLOBAL Carbon tax?! ROTFL!!
What will they think of next?
UnoRaza 5 months ago
I always told people, don't argue about whether or not global warming exists. Argue that Cap and Trade will only send more U.S. to China, a country with no pollution laws.
fivestarmichael 5 months ago 3
The worst thing you can get judged for is "crimes against humanity". What about punishing "crimes against the planet?"
comidaparaperro 5 months ago
TheNotSoRealNews did it again
baboonsquadron 5 months ago
Okay so something is going to happen somewhere, some time? That's the scientific answer? PASS THE LAW NOW!!! EVERYBODY STOP BREATHING!!! It's because of the global cooling... wait it's global warming... wait now its climate change... actually it's really climate justice with poor people so you better take us seriously. FIGHT REAL POLLUTION AND REAL INJUSTICE YOU DONKEY.
p.s. climategate
TR4iN 5 months ago
@TR4iN Learn to communicate like an adult, and maybe somebody will listen.
BenjaminFranklin2u 5 months ago
@BenjaminFranklin2u Is that your final comment? or should I wait for you to rephrase your adult communication?
TR4iN 5 months ago
@TR4iN I'm surprised you didn't write that in ALL CAPS.
But in all seriousness I thought you might be 14 when I read your comment.
BenjaminFranklin2u 5 months ago
@BenjaminFranklin2u I guess it's a subject that beggars the intellect and brings out my p!ssed off inner teenager... When some close minded party line toeing warmist starts spewing tripe like there is no scientific disagreement or that they are receiving unfair treatment in the media when in fact there is very valid disagreement and the coverage has, and continues to be, disproportionately weighted in his favour the whole conversation becomes ridiculous and counterproductive... thus... DONKEY!
TR4iN 5 months ago 2
@TR4iN Well put. Couldn't agree more.
BenjaminFranklin2u 5 months ago
@TR4iN How many scientific journals have you read about climate change? Can you name one of the thousands of professional science academies and associations that disputes man made climate change? I can name HUNDREDS that support it. The National academy of science and American Physical Society says it is certain. This is settled science. It is only corporate propaganda and hired guns in the media and lack of science knowledge by the public that makes it a controversy.
michalchik 5 months ago
@michalchik google 'hide the decline' donkey.
TR4iN 5 months ago
@TR4iN I have read the emails in context. Have you or do you just suck the tits of petroleum news network? Google "climate scientists cleared" and "newspapers retract 'climategate' claims". Your news sources are dead wrong propaganda pieces and you are a little puppet man who does not know the first thing about finding the truth. Some people are so gullible.
michalchik 5 months ago
Comment removed
BenjaminFranklin2u 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TR4iN but otherwise I agree.
BenjaminFranklin2u 5 months ago
Cap and trade is just a scam like derivatives....
megamogx 5 months ago 22
@megamogx Agreed; imagine what could have been done had the trillions not been wasted on the war in Iraq and Afghanistan - high speed rail, fibre optic connection to every home (telecommuting helps by getting people off the road), investments into future technology etc. So many opportunities wasted :-(
kawaiigardiner 5 months ago
@megamogx how?
dankbot420 5 months ago
"cap and trade" was a stupid policy to begin with. Not only does it do absolutely nothing to positively effect climate change, it creates another seedy business deal that will undoubtedly would have been passed on to the consumers.
Subsidy actual technologies and research and you will see a change. And dont be naive either and think that every green business is an actual "business".
We dont need another Solyndra if we want to get ahead.
charbroiledmonk1033 5 months ago 22
@charbroiledmonk1033
We don't need technology, we can't sit on our asses and wait for that kind of a "miracle" that will allow us to keep our hyper consumerist way of life and not screw our ecosystem. If we want to have a sustainable way of life we will have to pay, a lot... But we have to do it, every single day we use our car instead of a bike, bus or train, we're being utterly irresponsible towards other people let alone ourselves and our children...
We must change the way we consume now...
sinekonata 5 months ago
@charbroiledmonk1033 -- Media Coverage by the Numbers: Solyndra vs. War Contracting Waste and Fraud vs. Bush Admin Oil Royalties Corruption : thinkprogress . org /romm/2011/09/30/331757/media-coverage-solyndra/ -- DefundWar . org -- UnitedForPeace . org -- projects . publicintegrity . org/WarCard/ -- WarCriminalsWatch . org -- JustForeignPolicy . org -- rethinkafghanistan . com
gregjalbert 5 months ago
@charbroiledmonk1033
Nissan Leaf ect will satesfy the needs of 90% of car uses. So why aren't 90% of the new car sale Nissan Leaf? There are several ways to answer that, but what it boils down to is a lack of incentives. If the price for a litre of petrol was 10EUR people would never buy a petrol car again.
So cap & trade will pressure the polluting companies to go green, or else they will eventually loose their customers to green products.
TheSaltyAdmiral 5 months ago
@TheSaltyAdmiral No it wont. Obviously you dont understand the mechanisms in place here.
You are using an oversimplification that completely misrepresents what cap and trade actually does.
you should really pay more attention to the video.
charbroiledmonk1033 5 months ago