Re: Life Expectancy / Escape

[HashyBee]

Mt rationality doesn't not include the endless growth mentality. So rationality is a matter of perception. I love being rational. Though from time to time,. I need to enter a psychedelic world sometimes though. That's plenty of rationality for me. (Also dreams, and those moments when I`m going to sleep) Raw bubbling thought. So sweet.

[HashyBee]

Sorry about the terrible typos, I'm not wearing my contacts/glasses, but I listened and had to respond ! :P And I also burned my finger horribly.

I agree wholeheartedly.Though I think we not only need a consciousnesses change, but if we have not collapsed, we need new tech. It's just that we have so much that's useless and wasteful. But everyday we don't crash, we should still pursue tech. Know what I mean? Things are advancing so quickly, the chances of great enviromental tech is high

[otonanoC]

To tie this back into Zack's video, we conclude maybe something like this:

Capitalism operates on competition between individuals, and revealing yourself to others is not part of a Culture of Competition. It is contrary to it.

This is why we don't know our parents. This is why we feel like we don't "know" our friends. This is why we feel like they don't "know" us in return.

[0ThouArtThat0]

yup, spot on.

[carrottangerine]

so you liked Vandana, ahn? :)

[RoadRrunner]

Only a point of clarification with regards to capitalism as a prime mover of agricultural destabilization in the modern world, while capitalism certainly has sludge, pesticide, and blood on its metaphorical corporate hands, it important to remember that China and the USSR in their totalitarian communist eras had even more disastrous uncaring bents towards the environment. Maybe Quinn(and Z) is right and it is an inevitable outcome of civilization.

[utubeisdi]

is that the same fan that was running bad on your macbook? are you back on that macbook is the problem now on your dads old comp? If so, it might be some software you have downloaded on your machine that is keeping the fans on all the time so it doesn't overheat. maybe some performance software or your just running a buncha shite at once.

[patternsinchaos]

It makes no sense to attack rationality, Matt, when you use it to arrive at your conclusions. There is nothing rational about allowing companies to endanger our communities. :-)

[Tefer65i]

To 'us' it can be seen as just a collection of resources to be managed for the betterment of all life. That is one way to accuratly see it. Other people may have different, equally valid, perspectives. It is, mind you much easier to talk about than to do; and so far all we have done is fail spectacularly

'no inherent value except that which we give it' You find that disgusting? Thats too bad because it is a fact and your dislike of it is as subjective as a muslims hatred of western culture.

[PeaSoupYum]

Forum Boarder

[1LBRTY]

Why do you equate rationality with the ecological illnesses of our day?

I don't see the relationship. My first impression is that the financial selfishness of corporations at the expense of the ecosystem is quite irrational, frighteningly irrational.

[0ThouArtThat0]

Rationality is not the problem. Seeing the rational mind as the only legitimate perspective through which to view global ecological issues is the problem. Rationality = ratio, ie measuring one thing in terms of another (distance/time=speed, etc). I don't think this abstract, linear way of seeing reality is appropriate for non-linear, complex ecological understanding and relationship. But as I said, being rational AND emotionally/intuitively in touch with nature would be ideal.

[Mjhavok]

"Seeing the rational mind as the only legitimate perspective through which to view global ecological issues is the problem. "

What other perspectives are reliable?

[0ThouArtThat0]

Emotionality on its own can be just as destructive as hyper rationality. I think a balance between emotional, intuitive, spiritual, aesthetic, and rational perspectives would serve us well.

[1LBRTY]

Gottcha. Do you think people that limit themselves to only rationality share some responsibility for ecological ills?

If it makes any sense, I'd say that it would be very rational (and ideal) for people to employ rational thought in conjunction with aesthetics...which would increase the value projected onto natural beauty and sustaining life with a balance between competing interests.

[0ThouArtThat0]

We all share some responsibility.

re: aesthetics, I agree.

[thomasmatus]

Just faved this video. Globalization v. Specialization: we have greater access to far cultures than to the personal culture of our next-door neighbor or even fellow student! (Apply to debates bw science & spirituality.) Science-technology-capitalism: science is never bad, technology is often good, globalized capitalism takes tech and spoils it & world. India means much to me - the suicide of farmers there I feel in my own skin.

[IChoseTheRedPill]

very good vid matt... monsanto sucks.

inmendham has recently blocked me

peace2U

[tecnoblix]

I know, "If we survive it". But you know damn well that humans have to poke at everything. Passing a law won't ever stop it. We have to embrace it and do the best we can to overcome and prevent our probable screw ups.

[redliterocket4]

I agree. Passing a law won't stop it. But revoking some laws that allow Monsanto (for example) to distribute GMO seeds as though there was no significant difference between them and the real thing. There are many laws on the books that, if revoked, would allow people and community to triumph over corporate interests.

[hozehd]

I think trying to bring the system down is a waste of energy. It seems obvious the system will fall on its own. It seems it will fall because of its attitude towards nature. It seems more advantageous to make yourself independent and arm your self to the teeth. That way when it does fall you can defend your property family and food against thieves, either state or civilian.

[hozehd]

plus if you engage in bringing a system down you are labeled a terrorist and I'm allergic to torture. And if you succeed in bringing a system down then you get the blame. If it falls on its own it has no one to blame but its self.

[windham666]

the instant i learned/realized capitalism is based on an infintitely expanding system, on a finite planet, it was toast for me. i surely do wish people would spend all this time and effort worshipping our True Lord and Savior, which is Nature. I see the monotheistic religions as the problem - we may be able to smash stuff with bulldozers and TNT but we surely do not have dominion and control over the earth, like it says in the holy books. globalization depends on cheap oil; the end is nigh.

[EverettsVLOG]

i liked your vid until you tried to say it was unintelligent to see nature as meaningless.

i think the quality of life has undoubtedly increased in rich countries at least, but it depends how you define quality

of course i agre completely that there are lots of problems but they seem to me solvable.

[zzz33333]

i just don't see why you'd WANT to see ANYTHING as meaningless. it's really depressing, if you asked me. how can you be happy in a meaningless life?

[MariborchanX]

The point (for me at least) is, that there is no inherent meaning in nature, it's what we think of it that gives it meaning, it's not somewhere out there or inherent. The problem is, that people romanticize nature too much and it doesn't really help with anything. You may see meaning everywhere, but for me the question is what is that meaning. And btw. the "let's go back to tribal life" thing was already tried by the hippies and didn't really work, did it?

[0ThouArtThat0]

mariboro,

Meaning comes out of relationship. It isn't up to us as isolated subjects to pick and chose what we find meaningful. Meaning arises when we relate and commune with other humans or with the natural world. So it is not entirely subjective, nor is it objective (waiting in nature for us to appreciate). It is intersubjective; it is between you and I, between ourselves and Gaia.

[Mjhavok]

Gaia: the spirit of the Earth from Captain Planet the tv show?

[0ThouArtThat0]

Gaia is climatologist James Lovelock's name for, as he put it, "a complex entity involving the Earth's biosphere, atmosphere, oceans, and soil; the totality constituting a feedback or cybernetic system which seeks an optimal physical and chemical environment for life on this planet."

[Mjhavok]

Matt I was pulling your chain. I have that book by James Lovelock.

[0ThouArtThat0]

Fooled me : ), which book do you have?

[Mjhavok]

The Revenge of Gaia.

[zzz33333]

.... right. that's why i don't advocate that shit. i want to bring this system down.

[0ThouArtThat0]

i didn't say it was unintelligent, I said if rationality is our only guide, then nature may as well be treated as a meaningless collection of useful resources for humans to exploit. but i think you're on to something... it is unintelligent as well, because this attitude eventually leads to ecological collapse (which means no food for humans).

rich countries certainly have nicer things, but that doesn't easily translate into increased well-being. and when it is at the expense of the 3rd world..

[0ThouArtThat0]

..which is has been and continues to be, you'd have to admit that industrialization has created a hell for the majority of people on this planet.

[EverettsVLOG]

i dont think its unintelligent at all. i said that nature only matters insomuch as its preservation is necessary for our own goals.

[hozehd]

Nature is necessary for our survival as well as every other piece of biological life that we know of. If we pretend that nature is just for us than we miss the point. Perhaps we should be more of a resource to nature.

[MariborchanX]

It's not that "nature is just for us", it's that "nature isn't for anyone, it just is". For me, morality extends to human interactions. And it just so happens that destroying nature is not in the best interest of yourself or your neighbour human being. So far I haven't seen any good argument to try and extend morality to nature itself... it just needs to be preserved, because without it we cannot exist.

[0ThouArtThat0]

if human beings can operate within a moral sphere, morality has already been extended to nature. don't let our fancy language fool you into thinking we are somehow above the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees. what we're doing here in text is just glorified reproduction.

[0ThouArtThat0]

yeah, i think ev has it backwards.

[MariborchanX]

It's not that we are above them, it's that they have nothing to do with our concept of reality, as they are not subjects able to reason and conceive of things like injustice, right and wrong, they just are, and they live..

[ImHereToMakeYouSmile]

The Future of Food was an interesting documentary.

[Bley121]

Hi Matt, great vlog and sorry for cutting into your conversation with zack. Darn he's a good rapper. But anyway, some fruits have a natural tendency to thank specific part of its host for carrying its seeds far away. Sounds absurdly spiritual but thats just my personal view.

[Bley121]

So, knowledge develop into technology slips in most parts (in between the fruit and the host) of these natural chain of events. Therefore providing better supply, packaging, medicine, etc to the masses. Ok, realizing that the population is artificially meaning "human-made" dependent on technology to survive, i'm thinking obviously we can't survive without technology. So what, when and where are the limits?.

[Bley121]

I think, we are arriving on a plateau where technology can no longer support the demands of the masses. Population outstrips resources. In my personal view, two things with horrible outcome need to happen for us to be back in balance. One, every human need to relinquish their control to nature. If nature says i'll give you this much. We adjust to nature by controlling our consumption etc.

[Bley121]

Secondly, technology needs to be in symbiosis with nature (since its closer to nature then us). You know fishing boats dock first then humans. A gravel digger digs first etc. Anyway what i'm saying is the fishing nets needs to reduce in size according to the fish shoal and not according to human needs.

[0ThouArtThat0]

don't forget that for the past few hundred years, only Western powers have benefited from industrialization. One could argue that China is still being raped by the West for cheap labor and resources. Civilization has never been good for the masses, only for a small portion of people with power.

[HaleyMary]

Good video. Quality of life can be a subjective thing. What's considered a good life to one person may seem like a not so enjoyable life to another. I guess it all depends on what individuals value in life.

[xXBlackClubsXx]

All that is intresting. It's like humans are cancer: Fast Growing, No Control, Seems Like There Is No Cure, And The Caused Harm To The World.

[LimpLoser]

but do you know about the culture of women? with their stinking holes and seductive ways.

[quikcrash]

I believe they prefer the phrase 'fragrant portals, dimly starred' --

[Ramiiam]

We could say that "quality of life" is entirely subjective, but in that case there is no point in debating it, and certainly not in comparing cultures on the basis of it. But if it consists of things that we can measure like health, longevity, freedom from hunger, personal security, wealth of choices and opportunities to pursue personal fulfillment as we may define it, etc., then modern industrial civilization beats anything that has preceded it.

[0ThouArtThat0]

"Health" might be argued to have increased, but only if you see it as synonymous with longevity. We have cured a few diseases, but it cancels out when you consider the tremendous rise in heart disease, diabetes, depression, ADHD, etc.

[normonics]

ahhh I don't like your assumption that ADHD is a negative! ;) evolutionary advantage is how I see it. Only in artificial environments (the classroom) is it a problem.

[0ThouArtThat0]

maybe it is the artificial environments like classrooms that causes it?

[normonics]

"today's society, impulsivity and continuous need for novelty are traits likely to be associated with little more than job loss. However, in other eras of human existence, such traits might have been an individual's key to survival: Research published in BMC Evolutionary Biology has found real-world evidence supporting the theory that attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) may in fact be an evolutionary adaptation necessary for survival in nomadic environments"

[normonics]

youre in san fran? why are you on the tuuuube??? get out and experience bro!

[0ThouArtThat0]

chill dawg, its 8am here lol. i just woke up.

[normonics]

8 am is a good time to feel the breeze of the bay (i would imagine)

[Ramiiam]

You can't be serious. Of course longevity is indicative of better health; i.e., people are suffering less of the ill health that killed them at younger ages in the past. But beyond that, think about the lifelong effects of childhood malnutrition, of chronic bacterial infections, of tooth decay that sapped the immune system, of parasiitc diseases, of traumatic injuries that could not be treated property. These were not unusual ailments but common ones.

[Ramiiam]

If you are interested to understand better what I am talking about, I recommend read Kathryn Dettwyler's brief book Dancing Skeletons:  Life and Death in West Africa, about her experiences as a physical anthropologist doing research on childrens' health in rural Mali in the 1990s.

[0ThouArtThat0]

I'll look it up on Amazon.

[hozehd]

perhaps the third world of the 1990s isn't a good example of healthy tribal society.

[Ramiiam]

No, they were healthier. Don't have figures for the 90s in front of me, but last year infant mortality in Mali was 96/1000, probably less than half that of acentury ago. The death rate was 16/1000, a third of historical levels. Only 32 percent of children under five were below ideal body weight, certainly a record. Life expectancy averaged 53 years, another record. If I recall, about half the population has access to safe drinking water, up from none a few decades ago.

[hozehd]

there is also evidence to show that native people in the americas suffered from an increase of tooth decay that sapped the immune system. The increase is shown to happen as soon as we give them processed and bleached flours and sugars.

[hozehd]

but what about heart disease, diabetes, cancer, car accidents, meth addicts, morbid obesity, prison, these are all factors which might outweigh medical advances of today. Not that they necessarily do but its something that one could actually be honest about questioning.

[Ramiiam]

Of course. And what you are going to find when you do question it is that a higher percentage of our population is living longer and enjoying more of its lifespan free of debilitating deseases than was ever possible in "tribal" society, whatever that word may mean.

Its for that reason that the critics of modern civilization prefer to disregard measurable achievements and talk instead of "alienation" and other vague complaints.

[hozehd]

If you reference my above comment you will see no reference to alienation or vague complaints. Actually I gave precise complaints of modern civilization. We are saying that average life expectancy, while important, isn't the last word on quality of life.

[Braindiscovering]

Great video.

But I do think we have more quaility in life then we had years ago. It all comes to evolution. It all comes to technology. Yet, without that attitude you talk about, life runs towards degradation and caos.

What attitude do you think we should have?

[0ThouArtThat0]

An attitude that respects nature and values the health of ecosystems, whether they have economic value to human society or not.

[jogayot]

see micro$oft monoculture for another classical example. VISTA = Virus Intruders Spyware Trojans Adware ;)

[patternsinchaos]

Nice!

[mistaspot1]

Monsanto also made the claim that they sought to own every seed in the world.

[2bsirius]

There are heirloom seed banks, but they won't be enough to repair the horror of what Monsanto is doing...It is also scary to look into what Monsanto's method of industrial pig farming. If money is the only rationale for everything, we are going to destroy the systems that support human and animal existence and call it technological progress.