Elgar: Enigma Variations: Part 1

[NanderNL]

the matrix ?

where/which movie does also use the first minute ?

[denewst01]

@NanderNL The first film, on the soundtrack its "clubbed to death"

[fcmilsweeper9]

@denewst01

I know Escalla a sort of trip-hop version of Clubbed to Death, but who was the original composer?

[fcmilsweeper9]

@fcmilsweeper9

Or was it Elgar? Because these are "variations" so I'm unsure

[Twobellieguy]

It's fine and all, if it were to a literal standpoint the music is great... Excellently executed. I myself am not a fan of Slow orchestrated or low orchestrated songs. It picks up pace I know, but eh. I'd have to say that I remain in the peaceful but fast tempo orchestra section.

[Phantom663]

Wow....

[Sirpadgett]

The missing principal theme to Elgar's "Enigma Variations" is "Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott" (A Mighty Fortress is our God) by Martin Luther. This discovery was made by Robert W. Padgett on February 3, 2009 - the 200th anniversary of Mendelssohn's birth. Google "Elgar's Enigma Theme Unmasked" to learn more.

[SuperAncientmariner]

@Sirpadgett An interesting theory, but that is all. IMHO, all the theories that are based on the argument that is is counterpoint to an unheard theme cannot be justified if the theme is unheard.

Then all the cryptography came into the argument. Really!!

No13. Dora Powell (Dorabella) says it was for Mary Lygon, Elgar says it was...thats good enough for me.

[Sirpadgett]

Generalizing about all enigma theories is an extrapolation too far. Elgar explained the Enigma Theme was a counterpoint to a famous melody, and that the Covert Theme may play 'through and over' the set. The original 1899 program note, interviews Elgar gave to The Musical shortly after the premiere, and his first biography in 1905 all confirm this. The original sketch of Variation XIII was given on a capital letter L, not LML. Only later were the extra initials 'ML' added - as in Martin Luther.

[SuperAncientmariner]

@Sirpadgett ..Now I have difficulty marrying Elgars catholicism with such a dedication to a hero of the Protestant reformation. Now you have written that Dora Penny was familiar with Luthers melody, Yet it is Miss Penny herself who states, quite catagorically, that the variation was for Mary Lygon. As I stated, that does it for me. As does the explanation of the later annotation LML, that Elgar awaited her permission, as would be the proper proceedure for that time.....cont

[Sirpadgett]

@SuperAncientmariner Elgar composed music for both the Catholic and Anglican churches, so he was more ecumenical artistically than most realize. More importantly, his favorite composers - Bach, Mendelssohn and Wagner - all have one thing in common: They quote 'Ein feste Burg' in their music.

[SuperAncientmariner]

@Sirpadgett In NIMROD Elgar himself suggests the 2nd ovement of Beethoven's Pathetique, which could equally serve as a principle theme.

I am afraid that the cypher based on 6 letter names is lost on me. Does it work if you substitute Nimrod with Jaeger being as it's names that are being used? Also, where do the other names and Initials fit in, as I presume they must somehow., or you are applying the theory only to where it will fit..cont

[Sirpadgett]

@SuperAncientmariner How precisely does Beethoven's 'Pathetique' play 'through and over' the Variations? Any attempt to map it over the Enigma Theme will be meet with unmitigated failure because it does not fit. Before attempting to appreciate Elgar's use of six 6-letter words as an allusion to his musical cipher, I encourage you to read my in-depth explanation of that ingenious cipher: enigmathemeunmasked.blogspot.c­om/2010/09/elgars-dark-saying-­musical-checkerboard.html

[SuperAncientmariner]

@Sirpadgett Regarding the Beethoven. I was refering to a remark made by Jaeger in a conversation with Elgar and Jaeger sang the Beethoven over Elgars theme.

Again, the cypher lost me and I cannot believe Elgar went through all of that.

The Christogram comment was not alluding to Elgar or the variations. It was a reference to your mentioning a work dedicated to Christ having a Treble Clef and comparing that clef to a libarum. So I musst reason that that comparison....

[Sirpadgett]

@SuperAncientmariner Elgar was an expert in ciphers, anagrams, wordplay and theology. You appear to make the elementary mistake of projecting your own lack of expertise in these areas on one of Western civilization's greatest composers.

[SuperAncientmariner]

@Sirpadgett I do not doubt his expertise in ciphers and anagrams. I just stated that I do not believe he would have gone through all that to compose this work , and 15 years before the outbreak of the Great War with all it's anti Germanic feelings. So, that I may understand better, are you saying that the cipher template that you used is by Elgar himself.? If so, why has it not been available to other seekers, musical brains and the various notaries of the music world?

[Sirpadgett]

@SuperAncientmariner What you believe is irrelevant to the debate. The only thing that matters is what Elgar planned when he composed his most enigmatic orchestral work.

[SuperAncientmariner]

@Sirpadgett But my doubt is the debate. You are asking the world, me included, to accept your discovery based on encriptions and codes and formulae. Any doubts placed against your points of validation makes it debatable. I was taught that the friends in the variations were all musically capable, and the suite came about when, on playing his "original" theme to his wife he demonstrated how each friend might play it and it progressed from that idea.....

[SuperAncientmariner]

@Sirpadgett How can I be convinced that what you suggest was wht Elgar planned. Again I ask, Is the template that you used to solve this mystery by Elgars hand? Did he leave it to help us?. I don't know.. that is why I ask.

I listened to your audio demonstration. To my ears it sounds like the EGF theme is altered to fit each variation of it's counterpoint (If that IS what Elgar's theme is). Surely, each counterpoint variation should fit "through and over" the EGF.

[SuperAncientmariner]

@Sirpadgett My final thought: You deserve to be correct given what you have put into it, but, for me, I don't think you are. If you are, you will go down in musical history.

Regards.

[SuperAncientmariner]

@Sirpadgett ..must be equally applicable to the treble clef in other works dedicated to Christ. Regarding fitting through and over.the entire work. Now, to my ears it doesnt.. unless you do an arrangement of GFB to fit every variation which you have done. Elgar would have had the same problem Now , can it be argued that these arrangements would not constitute Elgars "well known and popular piece "?

[SuperAncientmariner]

@Sirpadgett As a life long atheist, I cannot accept the divine intervention but I will back your belief in it. Please, do not misunderstand my motives here. I have nothing but admiration and respect for the obvious amount of work you have put into this ..Cryptography , numerology, the religeous aspect and the musical side. It is very impressive but it is, to my mind, too, for want of a better word, contrived. For example the "Ingenious cipher"  Is that Elgar's or yours ?...cont

[Sirpadgett]

@SuperAncientmariner I wish that it were my own invention. Unfortunately, I am not brilliant enough to contrive such a cipher, particularly one that uses multiple languages, phonetic spellings, and an elegant 24 letter anagram that spells 'Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott.' Consider, the Enigma cipher employs multiple Latin words, a language I never formerly studied.

[SuperAncientmariner]

@Sirpadgett Irespect your views and you have presented them well but to claim to have "Unmasked " the Enigma on what is, after all, a set of circumstantially based theories is. for me personally, not convincing.

Besides, could it not be argued that,if the Enigma were to be solved (which I do not think was ever Sir Edwards intention), then it's allure, mystique, mystery or what you will , would be lost. Not from a musical point of view but from an enigmatic viewpoint

Regards.

[Sirpadgett]

@SuperAncientmariner Perhaps if you read the bulk of my research you would find the evidence far more than merely circumstantial or conjectural. Absent written confirmation, no solution ventures beyond the slightest speculation. Fortunately, the Enigma Cipher clinches the case for 'Ein feste Burg'. It is deliciously ironic how certain some are of their own uncertainty when it comes to my solutions to Elgar's enigmas. The evidence literally sings for itself.

[SuperAncientmariner]

@Sirpadgett I'm afraid I can only accept your thesis as another, albeit exteremly well argued, attempt to solve something that is IMO, not meant to be solved.

[Sirpadgett]

@SuperAncientmariner Following the tragedy of the Great War in which millions of British soldiers were slaughtered in the trenches, Elgar would understandably desire to keep his covert theme a perpetual secret. 'Ein feste Burg' was sung by German troops preparing for go into battle and to commemorate their victories. Any associated with anything German after the Great War was social and artistic suicide. Even Gustav Holst had to drop the 'von' in his name.

[SuperAncientmariner]

@Sirpadgett As for Holst, I presume his dropping the "von" was because of it being Germanic purely through association because his family was, I believe, Swedish

[Sirpadgett]

@SuperAncientmariner Correct. Anything remotely Teutonic was verbotten in English society.

[Sirpadgett]

@SuperAncientmariner The Enigma was premeditated, and is a covert Principal Melodic Theme that can play 'through and over' the entire set of Variations. enigmathemeunmasked.blogspot.c­om/2010/09/premeditated-enigma­.html

[Sirpadgett]

@SuperAncientmariner "The ‘Enigma’ orchestral-piece is Op. 36. What the solution of the ‘Enigma’ may be, nobody but the composer knows. The theme is a counterpoint on some well-known melody which is never heard..." - Elgar's 1905 Biography by Robert J. Buckley

[Sirpadgett]

@SuperAncientmariner "In connection with these much discussed Variations, Mr. Elgar tells us that the heading ‘Enigma’ is justified by the fact that it is possible to add another phrase, which is quite familiar, above the original theme that he has written. What that theme is no one knows except the composer. Thereby hangs the ‘Enigma.’" - Elgar quoted in the October 1900 issue of The Musical Times.

[SuperAncientmariner]

@Sirpadgett I am aware of, and do not deny, the premeditated Enigma and the Unheard melody. However::-

You link a work dedicated to Christ to a Christian symbol by comparison to a musical symbol. Therefore, if that link applies to one work it must apply to all others. If it does not apply to all others, it cannot be applied to one

LML. If the second and third letters are Martin Luther, are we to presume that Elgar is dedicating it to Lord Martin Luther? ...cont

[Sirpadgett]

@SuperAncientmariner Your supposition that Elgar's allusion to a Christogram in the Enigma Variations must somehow apply to all other musical works is an unsustainable extrapolation. As for Variation XIII, I find it more than simply coincidental that Elgar added the letters 'ML' when the Covert Principal Theme was composed by a person with the initials ML (Martin Luther).

[SuperAncientmariner]

@Sirpadgett cont. And ,if your theory is correct, then every piece of music that has a G cleff in it's score has a religious theme. (I cannot see the similarity between treble cleff and a christian marriage symbol)

So, again IMHO, an unproven theory.

[Sirpadgett]

@SuperAncientmariner Every piece of music with a G clef? That's an absurd extrapolation. You understand neither Elgar's Enigma nor my explanation.

[ronaldosucks1]

Love the imperalist 'tash, Dorabella is my fave--very playfull--thanks for the post.

[ciannagh]

This particular variation is about watching his fiancee leave on a boat for New Zealand. You can tell by the music that he was absolutely heartbroken.

[jackylen57]

Merveilleuse interprétation. J'adore ces variations¨!

[fozziebear2009]

Earthatic you are lovely! I thought it was a great touch seeing your username as director!!

[jago1881]

How much Wagner live in Elgar ?

[TTM3Bobo]

I went to see the London Symphony Orchestra today and they performed this piece. I fell in love with it, it is amazing!

[Henry130766]

I love Elgar! Amazing man and music! There`s a statue of him in my own town of Hereford with him and his bicycle, like on the picture in this video!

[brookwall]

Excellent music

[chubbykido]

i love it. :|

[alterpenner92]

thats cool, I love the variations ...

they are wonderful,

[alterpenner92]

wonderful, I love it, but where is the 2nd part ?

I cant find it but i want to listen it ....

[earthatic]

If you want me to, I'll upload it soon!

[WaterLemon218]

please upload 2 part!!!