Derrick Jensen - The Fundamental Difference

[lympheneas]

why is he talking so fast? ''Nursing all mother. spitting out a trail of termites.''

[12345combination]

The Machine is strong. We must purge the weak, hated flesh and replace it with the blessed purity of metal. Only through permanence can we truly triumph, only through the Machine can we find victory. Punish the flesh! Iron in mind and body! Hail the Machine!

[skyjuiceification]

@12345combination

looks like some one has watched terminator one too many times.

[12345combination]

Jensen is an idiot that has never sited a peer reveiwed journal article in any of his books.

[shodospring]

@12345combination

And you don't know how to spell! (Cited. Sited means located something)

[12345combination]

@shodospring

A misspelling, on my youtube? By a troll? Say it ain't so.

[Sveccha93]

@12345combination Logic doesn't require citation to be sound, and philosophy doesn't require cooperation. I'm not sure what statements he makes that aren't either already accepted facts or his own conclusion. Sounds like you just cherry picked some "fact" about him so that you could brush him off.

[sthprk666]

What did the Derek Jensen say to the river? Hey, whats up? How did the river respond? Wshhhhhhh.

[pazomblez]

silence equals death and death equals silence.

[sthprk666]

Then I should not be silent about how gay you are.

[thisisnotokay]

how is the life of the tribal wo/man easier than that of civilized wo/man?

I don't want you to have to write a bunch of stuff out - is there like a certain webpage or book you could refer me to? I have an open mind; I just don't see it.

[zzz33333]

definitely. check out "in the absence of the sacred" by jerry mander.

or, "original wisdom" by robert woolf.

or, "the original affluent society" by marshall sahlins.

[wda013]

@zzz33333

d'accord,

except that the author of "WHAT IT IS TO BE HUMAN, hope lies in our ability to bring back" (1994), re-published as "Original Wisdom - stories of an ancient way of knowing" (2001), since a few weeks available also in German as "Das Lächeln der Senoi: Was es bedeutet ein Mensch zu sein" (2011) is called robert wolff (sic; he prefers his name written in all-lowercase), his website is wildwolff(dot)com

[Andreazor]

It isn't. It is merely people being romantic or "nostalgic" about ancient ways, calling them better without any insight what so ever into what such a life would truly mean.

It's all fluffed up by romantic bullshit, in short. No society is unblemished, no man be he from the bush or from the concrete is potentially any better or lesser then the other. No society potentially better or lesser.

Anyone and anything can change and be "superior" though.

[40blocks]

I think the point is that world is full of conversations and communication. Westerners deny that they even silence these conversations and pretend they do not exists- but they do. In order to destroy forests and rivers you cannot perceive them as having conversations as communicating you must silence them and then destroy them.

[RotaryPoweredDick]

Dont be a douche bag and bash me! but honestly im a little confused idk if it because he talks fast but what is the point hes trying too get across i what too know!

[sacredthornapple]

The point is that civilization can only destroy.

[RotaryPoweredDick]

ah, i see, thank you sir!

[zzz33333]

"the fundamental difference between Western and indigenous ways of being is that even the most open-minded Westerners generally view listening to the natural world as a metaphor, as opposed to the way the world really works."

dig?

[upstart1776]

stupid ass. civilization is directly responsible for you being able to write such stuopid shit with a computer on the internet, powered by electricity discovered and harnessed by the west.

you fucking idiot.

[zzz33333]

so destroying the entire world is justified in that now i can rail against civilization..

[Seedr0]

He's a hypocrite thus he is wrong?

I don't get it.

[missuncommonsense]

Jeanette Armstrong is one of the most beautiful people I've known, and I'm lucky to have her in my life :)

[chesurfdude]

How is electroshocking a stream a metaphor for nature, from the western view. The fundamental difference is explained in the book Guns, Germs, and steel. The only reason you may think we think that way is that we have formed these large communities, and empires instead of living in a 20 man tribe with no technology.

- and dickelliot i think i agree with, sry about the post on your vid

[zzz33333]

that book sucks ass

they tell me in my classes at college that he doesn't know what he's talking about

and i don't even think they know what they're talking about

i think there is a lot more going on here than what Jared Diamond boils it down to! and honestly i could give two shits for the CAUSES.

i'm talking about PRESCRIPTIONS.

[zzz33333]

... to problems that exist.

of course you need to understand the cause of a problem to prescribe a solution, but look at it this way -

right now, there is a lot of bad shit going on. we could talk about what forces, thousands of years ago, gave rise to this bad shit we see right here, or we could talk about fixing the bad shit. ok?

if this video doesn't appeal to you, watch another one! i've got over 400 of them!

and i didn't even write this, or say anything - just put the pictures together

[chesurfdude]

whats the problem with civilization, as apposed to being a indigenous one. If we all reverted back to indigenous peoples we would still try to advance so we could be the "best tribe" not be killed by others. We will always advance no matter what, so we can get the upper hand

and yeah i guess its not your vid, but do you agree with it

[chesurfdude]

i guess we as humans are doomed to always advance, trying to make things easier for us, new technologies, faster this faster that, but by making those things new technologies we make life more complicated for ourselves. and to operate our new machinery we have to take many years of education. we are training for jobs that aren't even here yet( watch vid shift happens). so i guess civilization has its faults, but how do you fix it

[zzz33333]

civilization is not advancement.

the life of an average civilized man is HARDER than the life of an average uncivilized man.

civilization is not progress. civilization is a form of human social organization based on cities, which cannot exist without perpetual exploitation and violence. inherently unhealthy.

[zzz33333]

civilization is not advancement!

advancement is a social construct!

in other words, every human society is "advanced!"

[dickelliott01]

Yeah we should really follow the lifestyle of a people that were almost exterminated. They lived in "harmony" with nature and failed to advance their civilization thus resulting in their destruction. This is like saying "yes let's live like the dinosaurs". Yes let's pick previously unsuccessful ways of living because surely that will be beneficial to mankind! No! Other types of civilizations have tried and failed. This is what you've got. THIS is what works!

[zzz33333]

you're operating under some false premises.

first, not all humans naturally build civilizations. uncivilized societies have existed, still exist today, and those are the ones that work. every civilization that's ever existed has collapsed along the same lines of collapse that ours is exhibiting now.

EVERY human society is advanced. every uncivilized society existing today is advanced.

[zzz33333]

if you're saying it's THEIR fault that they didn't make weapons like we did, if you're saying it's THEIR fault for "being exterminated..." well, jeez. is it the woman's fault for being raped? is it the child's fault for being abused? this is a classic example of "blaming the victim."

the only way of life that's proven to be previously unsuccessful is civilization, that is, a way of life based on cities. the only way of social organizatio that's proven to be truly successful is the tribe.

[zzz33333]

"conquering the world" is not "working best." "growing the most" is not "working best."

"working best" is "working best." it's hard to get an objective good, but i like to go with health. there is objective health and there is objective sickness. the best social organizations will increase general health of everything. civilizations don't do that. tribal organization does.

[chesurfdude]

read guns, germs and steel. You'll know why we advanced first. And civilization is good

[zzz33333]

i've read it, thanks.

in order to say "civilization is good" you either need to re-define "civilization" or you need to re-define "good."

[chesurfdude]

why is civilization so bad

[zzz33333]

because it causes harm to every living thing it comes in contact with

[skyjuiceification]

@chesurfdude

i read it and it taught me that western man will stop at nothing to justify destroying the possibility of another future for the planet other than the mad max world america and europe and now china will force feed the rest of humanity. sickening. he tended to make it all seem so inevitable. which nothing is. and its a good thing bad experiments can be aborted.

[fructosemademephat]

Aborigines in Australia (the driest continent on Earth) have been living in an "uncivilised" way for nigh on 60,000 years. They learnt how to survive in the desert, they learnt how to process poisonous foods for safe eating, and they learnt how to burn off the bush thus avoiding massive forest fires whilst regenerating the bush at the same time. 60,000 YEARS!!

[fructosemademephat]

It has taken civilisation only 200 years to pretty much kill off all traditional Aboriginal communities and most of their knowledge as well. Now Australia faces massive bush fires every year, and a huge water & food shortage, and yet the Aust. gov't is applauding the fact that within 40 years time the population is going to grow from approx. 20 mill. to 35 mill. So....you still think this one works? Or do you see success as to how many other communties can be ruined to advance ones own?

[skyjuiceification]

@dickelliott01

ur logic is sooo off the mark it aint evn funny. for one this society cant with any stretch of the imagnation be said to have "succeeded". and in its everclueless march "forward" it has dismantled far wiser cultures,which left alone have lasted 20,000 years and would have lasted longer. had the short sited but clever west had the deep understanding to co-habitate instead of run over people that could not resist them with force. good thing faust is on his death bed.

[Christinecedar]

Derrick, of course the most natural means of listening to anything within our natural world in a caring manner would be too simple for the WW.

[northernpike56]

Natural world = a place of peace and reflection :-)

[Dreadford1]

@northernpike56

I respectfully disagree. The natural world is not a fairy tale place that is for "peace." Nature is violent and relentless and full of beauty. My point is that it is not "good" for humans because it is a place for "reflection", it is good for humans because it is REAL and and you might get hurt or die or maybe even live for the very first time.

[pretzelzetzel]

@northernpike56 ... for members of modern industrial societies. for members of tribal pre-civilized societies, nature is the world they navigate. it's the home of all of the stresses we experience (the need for resources, social difficulties, etc) PLUS the added dangers which we avoid by living in cities.

[chesurfdude]

who the fuck electroshock's streams, most people just go to the stream and do whatever, and listen

[zzz33333]

i just read an article about people electroshocking this lake to see how many fish were left in it!

[dickelliott01]

Haha obviously you haven't done much research or you would know that indigenous people have been using plant toxins to make fish float belly up for thousands of years. They still do it to this day. There's even a wiki article entitled "fish toxins" - go read it. You're somehow under the illusion that tribal peoples would rather see themselves die rather than fish die. This is preposterous. All living things desire to live. This is the human spirit. We are selfish. Advance or be advanced upon.

[zzz33333]

i believe wikipedia also has an article on what is known as a "straw-man" argument.

go read that.

[dickelliott01]

that wasn't a straw man argument. Maybe you have poor reading comprehension. The argument is: Derrick Jensen is idolizing the indigenous lifestyle and talking about how "civilized" humans might shock a lake and see how many fish pop up. Indigenous people have been poisoning lakes, rivers, and streams for thousands of years in order to make fish float belly up. This whole indians "lived in the hands of the land" stuff is a lie. Your argument is false.

[zzz33333]

every tribe is different.

no way to generalize and say, "this is what indigenous people do."

derrick jensen is not talking about the uncivilized in this video; he's talking about our culture, the civilized.

nobody's idolizing anything. what is happening here is, civilization is proving itself to be unhealthy, unworkable, unsustainable and stupid, and people like Jensen and myself are waking up to that truth!

join the party, pal!

[zilchersatya]

:D

"what a concept"

(i love when he says that)

[Loreleila]

Yet there is meaning the the metaphor also, the symbols nature offers, in her cycles, of which we are a part. She speaks. We are not her masters and never can be, we are part of it all.

[jamiethomsonssongs]

i agree, other than speaking of nature as 'she', i don't think it's fair to confine nature, or our view of nature, as purely feminine

i feel as much part of nature as a man as i would were i a woman

i'm aware it may seem pedantic, but to me it is similar to referring to 'god' as 'he'.. i'm atheist, & that's one of the many reasons, i think it is intended to imply authority or power in some way, perhaps mystique or beauty would be an equivalent in nature?

interested to hear your thoughts

peace

[Loreleila]

I do understand. I knew as I typed it someone may take issue. I'm not even sure why I said it. But we live on 'mother' Earth and a lot of the nature of nature is perceived as feminine. Creation, destruction, nurturing, growth, the cycle etc, just as a lot of power and strength related qualities are veiwed as male. But I think we each contain elements of both, whatever our gender. It's not an either or. I've wondered why people refer to God as he myself.

[Loreleila]

Surely they'd have to be both. How can you create something you if you have no sense or experience of it?

[zzz33333]

loreleila, it is not a metaphor. that's what Jensen and Armstrong are saying.

[Loreleila]

I realise. I was offering what looked to me like a complementary perspective, which affirms what they are saying.

[jamiethomsonssongs]

thanks for the response, i guess i just find a lot of aspects of the qualities associated with the generalised idea of 'male' to be rather negative..

a favourite song lyric i discovered recently by jim o'rourke -

'women of the world take over; cos if you don't the world will come to an end, & it won't take long' although it seems simplistic, i think if some of the qualities associated with femininity were more prominent&valued in world politics the future of humanity may be somewhat brighter.

[Loreleila]

Interesting. Someone posted this on one of my videos today. It's from the Tao:

'The valley spirit never dies

It is named the Mysterious female

And the doorway of the Mysterious female

Is the base from which heaven and earth sprang it is there within us all the while

Draw upon it as you will,it never runs dry'

[Pollther]

According to Aldous Huxley in his Perennial Philosophy, the divine is considered male (and active) and the soul (or essence, or whatever) is considered feminine(and thus passive.)

I've read a bit of Otto Weininger's "On Sex and Character" but not enough to render my opinion of it. Stay tuned.

[dnHooligan]

jensen is one smart cookie. i miss my creek.

[lmbg77]

i have seen most of your videos,so i fell i can post my opinion!!!!so i should believe someone who wrote a book,or anything in that matter ,just because they did!!!!thats their opinion!!!

[bbbleaver]

an opinion by definition is "the uninformed thoughts and feelings of someone" and unfortunately this is all we have for the most part in the west... uninformed thoughts and feelings. what jensen suggests is to become informed by creating a dialogue with the world, with others...

[smartarab101]

hey zach can u explane this video to i sorta get it but not really

[zzz33333]

what do you mean? what do you not get?

[narcoleptus]

Thanks zzz

No exaggeration to say nature saved my life, in terms of my life's quality, I needed to change my life, for the better and I did through doing what you say and It worked!

Its not just a good message but a deeply powerful one!

Thanks for making the effort!

[pennilesscripple]

how's that, narcoleptus? what did you do?

[narcoleptus]

I left home at 17 and went to live in a hippy commune where I could go for long walks through mountains, took up long distance walking, landscape art, photography.

Lived in a forest for a year, anything that brought unspoilt nature into my life!

It helps me to cope with the symptoms of my narcolepsy better than any drugs, the difference between having a life and having no life at all!

Being totally ALIVE! not just half alive!

[narcoleptus]

Modern urban life is a failed experiment! ........seemed a good idea at the time!

It has the arrogance and ignorance to assume that man made artificial nature is far superior to real nature!

The further we go down that road the more dysfunctional we become individually and collectively!

[zzz33333]

that is a very solid summation of everything i've been trying to say in every video i've ever made.

[pennilesscripple]

damn, narco

put that on a t-shirt

[iDroli]

nice

[eight38s]

I want more Zack.

[zzz33333]

you want more of me? or you want more of this?

[eight38s]

I want for of this. More videos.

Thanks for the thumbs down whoever. I hate those things. Phft! >8^(

[Darganot]

This is the problem I have with Modern Liberals and the whole trendy 'green' movement. They do believe that the natural environment should be preserved, but that humans should remain separate from it. The National Parks system is a good example of this. In order to just 'go out into the woods', as you've said, you need a permit, and you can only stay there for two weeks. Some in the Rockies will let you stay for a season or so (6 months) but you have to have everything planned out first.

[zzz33333]

.... yes.

[pennilesscripple]

yes darganot i have that same issue on a number of levels--the separation of nature and human

i've heard the ludicrous argument that cities are better because they keep man out of nature, where he would destroy it

and the tragic irony of our national parks is that people think they are preserves of some sort, when in reality they are being logged and paved at an astronomical rate

[funkalunatic]

I don't know the context, but I'm not convinced that Derrick Jensen understood what Jeanette Armstrong was talking said. Bare feet in a stream as listening is still a clunky metaphor that only gets across some of the point.

[zzz33333]

wow, are you joking?

re-listen.

bare feet in a stream (and conversation) as listening is not a metaphor.

it's how the world really works.

ever try talking to a river?

[funkalunatic]

When you get out far enough from civilization, you find that your sense of hearing becomes the foremost of senses; your impression of your surroundings are formed by literally listening constantly, supplemented by your other senses. It's a palpable, real-time, useful, and literal connection with the system of nature surrounding you - how the world works.

Feet in a stream feels nice and interesting, even spiritual for some people, but fails to fully convey this point.

[BobForehead]

Thank you. That was my first reaction to this, and my biggest issue with taking talking points from the Western Inteligensia's dissaffected d'jour. Listen with your ears. It's how the real world works. Just don't expect to grok much; of all the many animals i've met, humans are the least fit to assimilate information.

[pennilesscripple]

you can't listen through your feet?

have you ever tried?