Troy Davis Death Penalty Debate Question Time

[smithsnick]

@ubermisogynist Why in this debate do we have to deal with so many unfounded assumptions. Out of the many that you made I will address just one for as you do not know me it is the most baseless, and totally representative of the rest of your argument. I care about the victims and their families, but do not believe that state murder is anything like justice. But following your rational who do we then murder as justice for all the innocent people that were on death row (however few they were)?

[MrRicksanity]

Mr Chubs at 9:36 is an idiot. "It costs a lot more" lol nope.

[poniesinashed]

There is also a good chance that evidence can be planted. This isn't very unlikely to happen and if it does, an "ultimate burden of proof" won't prevent the deaths of innocent people.

[SgtPepperEverton]

If it wasn't for the possibility of killing innocent people, i would support the death penalty.

[ubermisogynist]

@SgtPepperEverton nothing is 100% accurate. The innocent being executed is exaggerated..this isn't like the inquisition..with all the forensics and appeals it's not likely to happen..also how is putting an innocent person in prison for life any less barbaric? People say "at least their alive" they have fates worse than death and you can't give them back time.

[thomaseshuis]

"The criminal justice system fails continuously, therefore: capital punishment!"

Can you believe the nonsense Patel is selling....

[supahdupahguy81]

From when 1 innocent person is executed by the state, from that point onwards, the entire concept of CP collapses & the state no longer has neither the moral right to kill anyone ever again nor the authority to be calling itself "civilized" whilst continuing with a flawed, primitve practice.

it's that simple.

[DearBossMusic]

I'd like to slap some sense into that stupid bitch.

[smithsnick]

These are NOT facts (but massive leaps of faith): (1) capital punishment is the reason why so and so is strong. (2) capital punishment is a deterrent. (3) a capital punishment trial will establish full burden of proof. There is NO evidence for any of this.

These ARE facts: (1) innocent men have been executed. (2) there are men on death row who's cases are inconclusive and shrouded in doubt. (3) An execution is a state sanctioned murder, which bears all the consequences of an 'illegal' one.

[ubermisogynist]

@smithsnick (2) it's not about deterrence it's about justice. Jail and Fines don't stop crimes..should we get rid of those also? (3) Alan Dershortiz (OJ Simpson Lawyer) has stated that most defendants are guilty(not enough charcters to explain everything just google it) (1) not common and considering how many appeals they get..also what about murderers who were let free? (2) same as 1. {3) wether it's the state or viglantes..justice will be serverd. at least the state gives a chance

[ubermisogynist]

@smithsnick people like you have never been in or known someone who was a victim of a violent crime..you care more about murderers than the victims or their families..

[ajbren92]

Look England we like you but please don't intervene with our affairs. If Troy Davis was innocent than god have mercy on the prosecutors, but if he actually did kill the officer than he deserved the ultimate justice.

[M10663]

@ajbren92 .goodness sake.dont interefere in our matters?rich coming from america.second you nor anyone else on this planet has the right to decide to kill someone for whatever crime.god isnt real,grow up already.oh and murderes and rapists should be behind bars for life,end of.america realy eeds to grow up...

[ajbren92]

@M10663

First of all I'm an atheist, so you just made yourself look like an ass trying to assume i'm for the DP because of religion. Wrong! Secondly, your saying I or anyone else on the planet has the right to decide to kill anyone, well first of all, it is not just a single person deciding the execution, it's many experienced officials doing this off evidence. And the government has the right to decide war which can kill thousands even millions, so I think one a few executions won't hurt.

[eastender86]

I agree with the death penalty 150%. You can say 'What if you wrongfully execute someone?' all you like but the truth is there are more innocent lives taken from our society when dangerous crooks are kept alive. Sarah Payne being the perfect example.

[sergeantfan3]

@1Thompsonmusic You are a complete moron.

[5LJ3A2]

Violent crime is higher in areas which have the death penalty. How can it makes sense to kill people, who kill people, to show that killing is wrong? Its just barbaric.

[sergeantfan3]

@5LJ3A2 Agree entirely

[ajbren92]

@5LJ3A2

First of all, the areas that have the death penalty, it is not used enough to determine whether it has an effect, and second of al,l how can you let somebody who is raped and murdered live, serve no justice to the victims family and friends, and eat at thousands upon thousands of tax paying dollars? It's just idiotic.

[5LJ3A2]

@ajbren92 Well violent crime is far higher in some areas of America that have the death penalty than in Western Europe for example. And I take it you mean somebody who rapes and murders, not the victim...Well, some people probably deserve it, but its about the state maintaining the "moral high ground". Killing is wrong! And capital punishment costs the tax payer more due to the many appeals. There is also always a risk of executing an innocent person.

[jonathansee]

Troy Davis is as guilty as sin. The Anti Death Penalty folks in USA spoke too much crap! They don't oppose execution for fear of executing the innocent, they just oppose executing the guilty. If Troy Davis was sentenced to life imprisonment, I bet those anti death penalty activist will ask for his release and he will kill for sure!

[ceejaywt]

@jonathansee Where is the proof Davis was guilty?

[jonathansee]

There was DNA evidence found on Troy Davis' shorts found during a search at his home. There were blood stains of the cop, Macphail on his shorts. After he shot him in the chest, he walked closer to him to shoot him in the head, that is how there was blood on Davis clothes. It was found in the dryer after the mother tried to wash them. This was not allowed as evidence because the cops did not properly get a search warrant. But does that matter at this point. It clearly shows his guilt.

[M10663]

@jonathansee .no they wouldnt.lol the death penalty is a primitve tool used by backward countries like the usa.anti abortion because life is sacred but pro death penalty.

[jonathansee]

@M10663 There is as much moral cowardice in shrinking from the execution of a murderer as there is in hesitating to blow out the brains of a foreign invader. - Sir James Fitzjames Stephen, 1st Baronet (3 March 1829 - 11 March 1894)

[FuroraCeltica]

Priti Patel is 100% right

[sergeantfan3]

@FuroraCeltica No she isn't. Ian Hislop is. If you believe in the death penalty then you think murder is ok.

[2Jax]

An innocent person being executed has a terrible effect on society. Every innocent person will be saying "that could have been me or my innocent loved one".

[TheWorldStrider]

I supported conservitives before. After what she said? Hmmmm no I thnk I will vote labour.

[theredrodorder]

in a truly civilized society, innocent people would not be found guilty...

[louiscfc93]

If a man takes a little girl and molests her in a basement for months and kills her then he should be put to death. At the end of the day he still has his life and she does not and no matter what you do to someone being alive is better than being dead. For the most disgusting crimes people should be put to death.

[TheWorldStrider]

@louiscfc93 And what if they catch the wrong man? He is accused of that crime, his friends and family are digusted with him and hate him. He faces the terror of being killed for a crime he didnt commit. In the US alone 127 innocent people have been killed with the death sentence. While I understand your viewpoint I am firmly against the death penalty.

[SmithersJones87]

What's striking is how thick some of these Tories really are. She sounds like she's trying to pander to the Daily Mail/Sun reading kneejerking brigade. Thankfully many of us are far too intelligent for the sort of nonsense that comes from her lavatory of a mouth.

[sikyot2]

great britain became great because of the death penalty...now britain is no longer great nor that strong because one of the main reasons of it's decline is it abolished the death penalty

[TheSobek]

@sikyot2 Britain became 'great' through a mixture of ingenuity and brutal conquest. Its rise and decline had nothing to do with capital punishment and, even if it did, that would not be a case for its return.

[shazkhaliq]

This preeti sounds and look like a worn out tool. She is so dumb if you kill the wrong person u can't bring them back after. We can't risk having the death penalty back end off.

[amar1989]

i met priti patel.... she is so fucking thick its unreal.

[Frequency404]

Watching this has just really depressed me.

[redmanonaroundabout]

@Frequency404 Why? Some people are arguing for the death penalty and some people aren't. That's what is constituted in a free society. All sides are arguing reasonably coherently, but if you expect extreme eloquence from a Youtube video, I'd suggest that you're on the wrong track. What's to be depressed about? Maybe you are just actually depressed.

[darkblood626]

There are crimes of passion compulsion and profit

Crimes of passion are not founded on rational thought and so cannot be deterred

Crimes of compulsion are not founded on rational thought and so cannot be deterred

crimes of profit are and to engage in them means to assume you not going to face consequences in the first place so deterrents hold nothing either.

Any one who thinks the death of a person can squash a type of behaviour or idea I have one name for you to ponder JESUS CHRIST.

[pinickityme]

Patel's liking for the death penalty IS NOT as a consequence of it proving to be a deterrent as has been proven by the US murder rate [as many have pointed out on this thread].

HENCE, her liking for the death penalty must be ideological.

[62del]

priti patel you live in the dark ages.

keep your right wing views to yourself.

no no no to the death penalty

[welshboy82]

As has been repeatedly pointed out, Priti's central argument is utterly bogus. Neither the UK, nor Norway, nor Sweden have the death penalty, while America does, and yet the homicide rates for the UK, Sweden and Norway are 4.3, 5 and 8.3 times lower than the US respectively.

[historypoliticsbb]

We want to preserve human life do we Harriet? Then why do we allow for abortion, the taking of innocent human life, up until 24 weeks? Why did you vote for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and now the bombing of Libya which have resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people? And she doesn't want witness convicted murderers to be killed. She has a conscience so seared, I can't understand why anyone would vote for her. She is everything that is wrong with this country.

[SmileForInsanity]

@historypoliticsbb I disagree with you regarding abortion as I am pro-choice, but I agree on the wars :)

[historypoliticsbb]

@SmileForInsanity I am glad that someone else can see that the hypocrisy of politicians who are against the death penalty, which is designed to save innocent human life (2 murders a year are perpetrated by previously convicted murderers), but support wars which take the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Nice to know someone agrees with me at least 50%. I used to be pro-choice as well until I did some research and found out what killing an unborn child actually involves.

[raskinman]

It's safe to say that a majority of the UK are civilized, Priti (Indian) Patel is not, on the other hand. Take your corruption away from this nation!!

[rezdechausee]

Populist Priti would have gone down a storm in Fort Worth Texas but in Birmingham she was downright embarrassing.

[GiantSandles]

Also, praise be to Hislop.

[GiantSandles]

The deterrent argument is still being made?

I'd have thought the lack of evidence in favour of it being a deterrent and the fact that (in the US) the murder rate in states WITH the death penalty is much higher than it is in states without the death penalty would have put people off of using that argument.

Oh well, dumb people are dumb.

[Winstone1975]

Yet again Ian Hislop cuts through political flimflammery, pomposity and bandwagon jumping like a hot knife through butter. I' am fairly certain that Priti Patel has only come out in favour for capital punishment to curry popular favour and get her name heard. Which, as she is a politician, is the kind of wholly cynical move we can only expect from her and the rest of the craven tossers in Westminster. Lower than snakes bellies all of them!

[smithsnick]

@teresahen The law allows for a death penalty case to be be made solely on witness testimony, the law then says once convicted guilty Troy Davis had to prove his innocence, establishing doubt in the prosecution case was no longer enough, and then finally the law says that the supreme court can only intervene on a constitutional matter it can not question the criminal decision of a state court. So the law was applied correctly, but clearly the laws themselves are wrong.

[teresahen]

@smithsnick What Law was applied correctly Explain Please????SMH!

[nbarrett100]

If it works as a deterrent then why does the USA have a higher murder rate then the UK? And why does Norway (with a maximum prison time of 21 years for murder) have the lowest murder rate in the world?

[01Ubermensch]

@nbarrett100 I suggest you google the murder rate of my country, Singapore.

[nbarrett100]

@01Ubermensch What I'm suggesting is that the death penalty does nothing as a deterrent and has not effect on murder rates at all, do you have any evidence that fear of being executed is what keeps Singapore safe? and even it it did does the chance that the state could execute the wrong person delegitimise it beyond reasons of practicality?

[01Ubermensch]

@nbarrett100 The recidivism rate of executed criminals is 0%. Perhaps you could read through the empirical analysis from the study that the economist Naci Mocan conducted. I don't know about you but I'd rather endure a guilty conscience from endorsing the rare executions of innocent human beings than to see a much greater number of innocent lives being taken away by undeterred murderers. If the possibility of wrong executions bothers you, then you should be fighting for a more stringent...

[nbarrett100]

@01Ubermensch Why does America have a higher murder rate then the UK? Why does Norway (with a 21 year maximum jail term for murder) have a lower rate then any nation on earth? Most of the time murder is not a rational decision, the punishment is irreverent because murders who plan - plan not get caught and murders who don't plan don't regard the punishment.

[njdevil281]

@nbarrett100 Why does America have a higher murder rate?? Try reading about it fuckhead. Its called 1950's white flight and urban decay mixed with a little drug known as cocaine. America's crime rate has decreased dramatically since the inner cities have started recovering. Arrogant fucking europeans don't know shit.

[nbarrett100]

@njdevil281 yeah we have cocaine here too, try again

[njdevil281]

@nbarrett100 The UK doesn't have anywhere near the level of drugs on the street as the US, and it isn't used as a gang currency as in the US. Don't even try to compare.

[nbarrett100]

@njdevil281 how would you know? I live here and there are drugs everywhere. Anyway you're undermining your own argument, if there are more drugs and gangs in the states then they obviously are not scared of the death penalty are they? Well done, your brilliant deterrent solved nothing.

[TheSobek]

@01Ubermensch Your username is hardly surprising, then.

[sikyot2]

@TheSobek every great civilizations of the past, persia,egypt,rome, etc. has the death penalty to effectively implement order in their societies, make specially vicious criminals accountable for their deeds, and the present superpowers, usa, china and russia deem it a necessity, they have freedom of speech 2 in varying degrees as you are certainly entitled to your own opinion ..

[TheSobek]

@sikyot2 That is called circumstantial evidence - you have filed to establish a causal link between having the death penalty and being a super power. In any case, we do not run our societies (not even in the US) with the aim of being a super power so the point is quite irrelevant.

[sikyot2]

@TheSobek your opinion expressed

[M10663]

@sikyot2 .the great civilizations of the past prayed to god to stop giving droughts and disease.witchcraft was also a wonderful thingused by these great old socitiestime moves on and people evolve,progress.lol what a wonderful christian nation aerica is.

[sikyot2]

@M10663 capital punishment is one reason why america is still strong, so is russia, china etc. and if you're going to reply just make sure you're spelling is comprehensible it's disgusting...

[Bumsoft]

@sikyot2 Erm, how? Is there any logic behind that statement or are you just following a correlation? If one looks at economic strength, quality of life, personal freedom indeces etc you will actually find the converse - with exception of the USA. Again, excluding the USA (and Japan although it rarely uses it these days), CP is exclusively used by what are generally considered to be either lesser developed, totalitarian or police states.

[01Ubermensch]

@nbarrett100 ....judicial process. You don't advocate the abolition of jail just because the possibility of miscarriage of justice exists, do you?

[nbarrett100]

@01Ubermensch no because falsely convicted prisoners can be freed and compensated.

[01Ubermensch]

@nbarrett100 Would you like to take the rap for someone else if he paid you? You can't revive an executed criminal just as you can't compensate a wrongly incarcerated person the years of lost time and opportunities.

[nbarrett100]

@01Ubermensch you CAN compensate a wrongly incarcerated person, its happened a few times here in the UK. You just unlock the door and write a massive cheque. And obviously nobody in their right mind would 'take the rap for someone else' for money, what would be the point in having money without freedom??? And even if anybody was mad enough to do that.... you can't just 'take the rap' for things without any evidence, your claim would be investigated by detectives.

[01Ubermensch]

@nbarrett100 Well then you could compensate a wrongly executed convict by unlocking the door and write him a massive cheque since you think the irreversible harm caused by a wrong conviction could be compensated with money.

[01Ubermensch]

@nbarrett100 Well then you could compensate a wrongly executed convict by unlocking the door and write him a massive cheque since you think the irreversible harm caused by a wrong conviction could be compensated with money.

[nbarrett100]

@01Ubermensch well obviously only if you're alive, that's the whole point. What are not understanding?

[gbushimprov]

Also, capital punishment doesn't work as a deterrent. Texas has killed 236 people over about 10 years, more than any other state and murder rates haven't decreased. The murder rate was 1238 in 2000 and 1249 in 2010, every intervening year was above 1300.

We should be educating people to know these things are wrong, not killing the ones we don't teach properly.

[gbushimprov]

Obama didn't refuse to intervene, he doesn't have the power to intervene. He only has power to stay federal convictions, this was a state case.