Changes in Motion from Aerodynamic Forces

[oooowwwwdddd]

does air have mass?

[tf08js2]

@oooowwwwdddd Yes, it does.

[oooowwwwdddd]

@tf08js2 If air has mass then does it have weight? I think that only when air is compressed does it's mass act as force but it still has no weight. Right?

[tf08js2]

@oooowwwwdddd Weight is defined as F = mg, so if it has mass, so does it have weight.

[oooowwwwdddd]

@tf08js2 Air has weight only when it's compressed.

[tf08js2]

@oooowwwwdddd No, even when it's not compressed it has weight. As long as it has mass, and gravity is acting upon it - it has weight.

Let me explain it like this: The atmosphere around us is just a very thick layer of gas particles that are trapped on the surface of the earth as a thick layering due to the gravitational field.

[tf08js2]

@oooowwwwdddd and sure these particles are moving in random directions all the time, but since they're not escaping earths gravity due to the gravitational force - which is acting on each particle that has mass - it follows that they have weight.

And if each particle in the Air has weight - this means Air as a whole has weight.

But sure, if you have anything that speaks against this - then please present some link.

[oooowwwwdddd]

@tf08js2 No, it is not the weight of air and the force of gravity which is a factor in keeping the atmosphere in place. Some planets and satellites have gravity with no atmosphere. Your definition of mass and weight is flawed. Gravity is a force related to mass. If air was a body of mass it would have it's own gravitational pull which would mean that every particle of gas within the atmosphere would be it's own planet with it's own atmosphere.

[tf08js2]

@oooowwwwdddd Let me ask you this: How do you think nebulas are formed? They're just gases that are formed into clouds in space. If it isn't because gravitational forces between the particles - then how are they formed?

[oooowwwwdddd]

@tf08js2 Nebulae are formed in space by proton and neutron attraction. In space there is an absence of oxygen and heat. So gravity is not a factor in forming any mass since there is no gravitational force when these particles are far away from any large mass. It is only when these gasses become dense enough to form a solid that they develop gravity. Gravity comes after the mass is formed, not before.

[tf08js2]

@oooowwwwdddd You have big gaps in your understanding. First off, the only attraction that can occur between neutrons(no charge) and protons(positive charge) so that they can be held together is the STRONG FORCE, which operates on the particles on a very short distance and GRAVITY. If you omit gravity, then the only way these particles can be clumped together is by randomly colliding with each other. Which is so unlikely to happen that we would probably have nothing if that was the case.

[tf08js2]

@oooowwwwdddd What you also fail to understand, is that anything with mass will be affected by gravity. Two molecules in space will attract each other by gravity at long distances - and at shorter distances the Electromagnetic and strong forces become the dominant ones.

I now ask you for our sake that you read up on your misunderstandings on wikipedia. Try searching for GRAVITY.

I will not discuss with you any further until you have atleast basic understanding och physics. Good day.

[oooowwwwdddd]

@tf08js2 what are your credentials?

[tf08js2]

@oooowwwwdddd And you have been more than content in waiting days before I answer, or even taken days to answer my comments. That you put so much weight on me not answering just that specific question immediately shows that you were just aiming for a rhetorical/discussion tactic that only shows your complete incompetence. Science isn't about winning. Science is about learning. But you rather be seen as clever and smart than to be actually right about science.

[tf08js2]

@oooowwwwdddd And my SOURCES are: Mechanics course book ISBN 9789147051670 by Christer Nyberg, "Våglära och optik" ISBN: 9197249989963 by Jönsson, G och Nilsson and basically all of the scientific articles on Wikipedia in english. They're pretty good. But in the days end, you don't care. You just care about looking smart otherwise you wouldn't spout out nonsense in a discussion of which you know nothing about. For the uneducated your talk sounds fancy and believable.

[oooowwwwdddd]

@tf08js2 Obviously since you haven't answered or responded to my question of what your credentials are, you realize that I have won this debate. When you study physics properly we can discuss this issue further. Until then, good day. 

[tf08js2]

@oooowwwwdddd Yes, because I rather answer your questions all night than to go and sleep when the clock is 03:00 in the morning. And in my views, you have lost the debate because when you stop discussing science - and start asking for credentials RATHER THAN asking for my sources - it just shows you have no arguments left and instead try to aim for a cheapshot. It's the equivalent of saying "Okay, then YOU tell us how to fix it" when someone criticize a temporary fix to a problem.

[tf08js2]

@oooowwwwdddd And for the record, my credentials are the following: Programming technique Electrical Measurements Physics - Quantum Phenomena and Nanotechnology Wave Propagation and Introduction to Engineering Physics Automatic Control Linear Algebra Calculus Multivariable Calculus Mathematics - Analytic Functions Mathematics - Systems and Transforms

[tf08js2]

@oooowwwwdddd But for the educated - you just seem ridiculous.

[lveaasaez]

@tf08js2 @oooowwwwdddd What´s going on here? What´s the point of the discussion? Maybe I could help both of you finding then answer to the (for me unknown) question. Maybe you are both right and are arguing on a vague basis. I teach physics so if there´s anything I can do to help you both find a solution, don´t hesitate to contact me.

Kind regards!

[tf08js2]

@lveaasaez I don't think so. What I've read about physics so far makes it very very clear that air has mass, and since it's in a gravity field it also has weight.

I'm educating myself to become an engineer in Physics - and I've spent many many hours reading and thinking and trying to figure out physics.

The other person stopped wanting to know the answer and started to only care about winning the debate.

[lveaasaez]

@tf08js2 Absolutely. I didn´t read the whole discussion between you and owd but if the point was whether air has mass or not, then the answer is a big YES (in caps) and will have weight because it´s in a gravity field (definition of weight: mass in a grav. field). Air is composed of molecules and those are matter which occupy space and have mass. Therefore, they DO have weight. By the way, rho (density) for air (1 atm, 15ºC) is 1,225 kg/m^3, meaning that 1m^3 of air has a weight of 12 N.

[tf08js2]

@lveaasaez He's pathetic really. I have no respect for people who go into scientific discussions just to seem smart if they win the discussion. He was more interested of being right than what actually IS right.

[lveaasaez]

@tf08js2 And because air has weight, it produces the atmospheric pressure that we feel on the Earth surface. This pressure is weight/area, so if there´s pressure, then there must be a weight spread over an area, meaning that air has weight/mass. And those people you refer to are just doing pseudoscience. They claim to have the truth but their hyphotesis cannot be proven, meaning that they don´t do science and their statements must be then disregarded. Don´t worry! You have a point, he doesn´!

[tf08js2]

@lveaasaez :D

[tf08js2]

@oooowwwwdddd Btw, if you believe you knew all this - then why did you even ask questions about it?

[FCbisleybob]

err where is centrifugal force acting oposite to lift in the turns.

[mrg3]

There is no "centrifugal force" in turns, there is "centripetal acceleration" towards the center of the circle. The NET force is equal to the total acceleration. The total acceleration can be conceptually broken into two parts: a linear acceleration for speeding up and slowing down and a centripetal acceleration for making turns.

[lveaasaez]

@FCbisleybob There´s no such thing as a centrifugal force. Actually, it´s an imaginary force that we can feel but which is not there afterall. By the way, if there was such a thing that opposes the (horizontal) component of lift, then the net force would be zero and there would be no (centripetal) acceleration, meaning that the body (aircraft) would fly in a straight line, which is not the case. Therefore, if u r to fly a curve, you need an acceleration which changes your velocity vector.