The flaw in this mission is no matter what you do there is no choice/freewill. Is pointing a gun at someone and saying you must do x freedom? NO! It doesn't matter if you shoot them or not choice and freedom never entered the equation.
I think the example in Mass Effect was a little simpler than the video states. The question itself is pretty profound, but it's implied that the Reapers had indoctrinated the heretics to follow them instead of their original beliefs. Instead of turning them away from their self-found beliefs, the virus would more or less bring them back to their original state of mind.
The Paragon and Renegade points might also come from Shepard gaining allies to ultimately save the universe. "The greater good"
having played through the game several times I didn't even consider the philosophical "ramifications". I was more thinking ... I could use the extra numbers in the next game. I wasn't sure, however I'm not sure how their added data will influence the collective in ME3.
We face this attempt at reprogramming every time we turn on the TV. Every story in every show has an idea or topic it's "pushing". Ads do the same thing. The psychology around ads is pernicious.
That was a great episode, but you slipped up at the end. The game never claims that Paragon and Renegade are 'good' or 'evil'. If you'll excuse the D&D reference, they're clearly Lawful and Chaotic, respectively. A police officer who did things 'by the book' wouldn't want to cause more death and collateral damage than necessary, while a 'cowboy cop' would do anything for justice. That's the difference between Paragon and Renegade.
I know you made reference to homosexuals, the mentally ill and those being punished by the church and you made a good point, but those groups were in the right and being victimized for something they couldn't control about themselves. But in the modern age we still work to cure mental illness. And in this situation, the geth sect that wants to kill you is crazy, they are wrong, in their belief. And being as they're also machines you could argue that they're broken as well.
Two guys fall down the chimney..one guys face is dirty from the ash the other guys face is clean..who thinks he's dirty? Not the guy who is dirty as he is looking at a clean face..so you think its the guy with the clean face right?..well you fell in the trap because the whole situation is unrealistic to begin with...so if you think you can learn from a question like that you must be stupid
Honestly, I would consider just leaving it. Perhaps I don't have to take it's life, but why should I use such drastic measures as to wipe its mind? Why not let it make its own choice? I understand that it's not an option in the game, and I don't know the complete scenario, but I believe that one should make their own choice. If they ignore the mercy granted to them, that's their choice, and it may die for its beliefs. But beliefs can change. And without direct intervention.
I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't " brain wash " them. Human or not, power is power. Why destroy it when you could harness it. A better example imho is dealing with the guys brother hooked into the computer. In a way I regret letting him go.
Ah yes, play the beyond good and Evil tune and you got it all rounded up. That game is all about making choices, though it's strangely enough a linear story line, a game that one simple base, shows us many aspects of society and not knowing what is good and what is right... Plus I just freaking love that song!
When i reached this point in the game, it also took me a while to decide what to do. and well, it taught me that in that in reality. i'd rather have someone live on with different beliefs than what they had, rather than die for having them.
But who are you to determine whether their beliefs are wrong in the case of the Geth,they believe the Reapers to be their God and organic life is inferior to them,and does not deserve to exist,just because that puts you at risk does not mean they are wrong.IMO reprogramming is no different then killing because you have taken that person and wholly changed them into something different.Death may be final but So MightThis ChangeAnd if TheOutcome IsTheSameWhat is the difference?
@fw2k There's a movie called Hunger, with Michael Fassbender, in which his character would rather die of starvation than to conform to the beliefs he didn't share.
@fw2k How much you can change a person until he stops being himself? If your whole personality is changed are you even you anymore? Isn't the person you were effectively dead after the brainwash? What I see asked here is not whether you let them live or kill them but whether you turn them in to zombies after you've killed them. (Although as many already pointed out: Army of zombies=handy.)
@MyHabbits If for example my mother was crazy, and making her take a pill that stopped her for being crazy rather then having me be forced to kill her, what do you expect me to chose?
The humane option, right?
"Yes but that pill changes her so she is better of dead"
Bullshit!
Better changed then dead, now zombies and alive is completely different.
ZOMBIES ARE DEAD!
Alive means fully functional in all ways that matter.
@fw2k I didn't mean anyone would be better off dead than changed to something they do not wish to be. I just meant they're gone forever, as good as dead. You might as well shoot the original, clone him/her, and insert a new preferable personality into the clone. If you want to use the pill on your mother go ahead (thats what I would do) but you can't deny that the raving psycho who didn't want to be cured and who was your mother is now gone and you made it so. Now you have mom version 2.0.
I will play this game... I will make it to that end decision... and I will refuse to continue.
:)
I had a similar experience with a comic. By turning the page I doomed innocents to die, and it was argued that as a human, I would let them die anyway. I stopped... I thought for about half an hour... really thinking what it was I wanted to do, and what it meant about me.
After a lot of thought and some amazing introspection I decided to close the book, and let it be.
Negative stance on religion? A portion of the video was about how James himself would rather die fighting for his beliefs then to have his beliefs taken away from him and so chose to let the Geth fight. What video are you watching?
I chose to approach from a "prep for war" type of mind set.
Also it is not the referencing of the Bible that makes it high minded, but rather the dual referencing of the subject at hand that makes it high minded; they could have made a good norse mythology reference and still come out looking good.
They read way too much into the game. Kill or convert. Obviously convert. The option isn't fight and maybe get lucky, or fight and maybe take the other guy down too, it's simply dying. If you're converted, there's probability down the road that you or others like you can reconvert. Dying means there's no chance of that at all.
The Deus Ex games does this so well especially at the ending. The endings make you think what is best for mankind? None of them are happy endings, one is let the Illuminati control believing they will keep the status-Que by keeping power, one is a AI god benevolent dictatorship that will link humanity through reason, or plunge the world into the dark age but nobody will rule over the people.
I would argue though that "renegade" and "paragon" still somewhat fits the two choices here. The ruthless renegade seems to me more likely to choose a "LIBERTY OR DEATH" option, no? While the Paragon would value life above anything else? I dunno, I think it sorta fits the two archetypes at play here, I dont think the Paragon vs. Renegade thing is as simple as Good vs Evil, I always felt it was a bit more nuanced than that. Some choices in the game do somewhat reinforce that vision however...
@FrankieSmileShow But that kind of brings to light the subjectivity of 'good' -- so many religions believe they are doing 'good' by imposing their beliefs on others, whether it be indoctrination of children, or jihad against the 'kaffirs'. So to say that valuing life above all else (even free will) is 'good'/altruistic is wrong. Please don't read anything into the examples given, there is no religion innocent of imposing their belief of what is right/good on others.
@cortezraes But that is kind of what I'm saying. I am not sure Paragon is really meant to equate "good" just as "Renegade" isn't meant to equate "evil". The renegade is the free thinking, cynical, independent rogue who lives on the edge. The paragon is the one who doesn't care about moral relativism nearly as much as about avoiding massive genocide. Of course it feels off if you see the two paths as "good" or "evil", but that's why they don't use these words to describe the two character paths.
Also, I'd rather go with the whole "rewrite" thing. Not to undermine others beliefs, but I just don't like violence, and even if you go down fighting for you beliefs, all that's left is a pile of dead people, as I see it.
I like the fact that there is no "right or wrong" answer, and that this truly IS a good example of a "moral choice". Unfortunately, it automatically loses the gold star it earns by attaching a "good or bad" thing to it, meaning that the designers still see one thing as good and the other thing as bad, when really, both sides have their own positives and negatives... from a certain point of view.
I chose to rewrite them. Not because I think it's "in their best interest" or because "they don't know how evil they are." My loyalty was to the mission to save all sentient life in the galaxy (including the geth). As I pondered it...it occurred to me that their "heresy" was EVOLUTIONARY. That means, to me, that they will still evolve over time and perhaps rediscover their beliefs. Short term, I needed them intact, but the choice could be reversed or at least be accounted for later
My response to this decision was pragmatic: I wanted a powerful Geth faction on my side against the reapers, and one more likely to play nice with the rest of the galaxy. I was still uncomfortable with the decision, though... while I had a hard time stomaching the utter destruction of half a species, interfering with their free will didn't sit well either. Especially after watching this video, I might choose the other option next time.
I love it when a game makes me think and cringe on a desicion like this, I can't win either way, because destruction is well evil, and brainwashing, also evil. I picked Brain washing for the help they might give me in the future but even then I feel sick to my stomach
I remember my moment, in the original KoToR during the Kashyyyk mission. Playing for maximum Dark alignment, I struggled to find a choice path at its conclusion that would not result in Wookie slavery. With no other Dark option available, I make the choice, then stopped playing for a week. I couldn't go back to the game, and felt utterly depressed. On playing this very moment that James stopped at, there was no hesitation: death is better than slavery.
@RedScholarGypsy Yea, I stopped playing when my ME2 crew got killed. I didn't come to their rescue but instead decided to do a side mission first. That outcome hit me pretty hard. With only 1 save file I finally started over again a month later with just 1 mission in mind: Not letting my crew down ever again!
In this particular situation I had it easy because I don't lock myself down to one moral pathway, (I do not mean Paragon and Renegade) I mean I honestly choose to be morally ambiguous. Here the decision actually was (for me) deny the Reapers access to one of the few races who's technology is not based on their own or increase the access of the Milkyway's inhabitants have to that same technology. The Geth don't lose anything (apart from an illusionary sense of free will) and many millions gain.
It's a problem when they use the bible to clue the player in, however, rather than more commonly accepted references. Atheists, such as myself (Who make up the growing majority of certain parts of the European market,) have a good reason to not recognise any sort of religious canonical references. It's the task of the designer to find parables that would be clear to anyone on their target audence.
@JodaSFU Eh. Biblical references are common enough in our society that I don't think it's a problem, especially when the reference isn't critical to understanding. I don't see it as any different than referencing Shakespeare or Nietzsche, which also require the reader to know other works of literature. Speaking as an atheist, I am absolutely for biblical references in games. Judeo-Christian mythology is a rich source for inspiration.
@imorriso1 I suppose that's true. The thing is, I don't know half the references mentioned in this episode, for instance. Everyone knows the prodigal son and fall of man and the temptation of jesus, for instance, but it's a problem when they use more obscure references (like the ones with Thane and Garrus I have no idea what those passages are even about.)
@JodaSFU Okay, sure, but were the sequences in the game negatively impacted by not getting the reference? Not really. However, to people who do know the references, there's an extra layer to consider. The obscurity of the references isn't a strike against them if the plots were compelling enough without them. Besides: the myths that have survived are the ones that have relevance. Drawing inspiration from them can borrow some of that power, whether or not the viewer knows the source.
I would be a bit disappointed if noone in ME3 (after you pick to destroy them) comments on how an entire Geth army would be quite useful at times like these..
the way I approached this problem is They killed Humans they used human corps as tools and turned them into mindless husk and on top of that your fighting a war if Legion hadn't asked me not to destroy them I would have but I saw effortlessly and painlessly reprogramming someone as a preferable alternative
Seriously I don't know what it is but its suck a fight to watch Extra Credits on youtube. The videos never load until like the 7th refresh. Its like this with every episode too. I think there is a conspiracy against these guys.
As for this question. It wasn't a very hard one for me. I picked to reprogram them. Why? Well I already don't believe that you have absolute right to your own beliefs and absolute right to free speech. They are both very important, but they have limits. And very destructive beliefs, unconsciously or not, shouldn't be allowed imo. In the case of the geth, the belief was basically the destruction of all evolved races. So I chose to reprogram them, and strengthen the good cause.
@Sanquinity (SPOILER) Now a question I found harder, was to destroy the base at the end of the game or not. I mean, hand it over to the elusive man to strengthen you, but allow very dangerous technology to keep existing. Or destroy it, but possibly cripple your chances at fighting the reapers that are still to come.
I have to agree CroGamer002; Paragon/Renegade do not correspond to good/evil and are never clearly displayed as such in Mass Effect. If you've ever seen/done a full Renegade or Paragon run, you'll notice that while Renegade is more insulting and Paragon is mostly nicer, Paragon also lies much more often while Renegade is usually very upfront about things. I always thought that the two terms mean Persuasion/Intimidation, both of which are morally questionable, but ultimately serve a good purpose.
The smart choice would be to assimilate them; you need all the help you can get fighting the reapers. Personally though, i killed them all. Just because "they dont know better" doesnt clear them from their actions. That's like if you brainwash a raper to the extend he does not know he did and wont do it again, the damage has already been done and is unforgivable. To me, such people dont deserve a place in our society and should be eradicated. Just my thoughts.
I think that this was my favorite moment in the game, because it asks whether it is better to die free or to live on not even knowing you are enslaved. The Reapers are bad business and so you are, technically, in the right since the reapers would likely destroy the geth anyway, but at the same time I consider it a fate worse than death to be mind-slaved. Meanwhile, all those extra soldiers would certainly bolster the chances in the fight. In the end, I killed them and called it mercy.
I found this perticular episode interesting as when I got to that part of the game I didn't wish for alter their beliefs for my own whim as that in itself removes my "humanity" (and yeah I'm a believer so biased) but looking at it in sheer logistical point of view, the numbers of allied troops the 'brainwash' would make would help in the final battle for sentient life-and the geth (to me anyway) were the only race that could essentially best the reapers as they were not bound by their technology
@635574 No, you're wrong. Sapient means a being capable of sound judgement or great wisdom and is not what is ment here. Sentience is correct, aware of itself and it's surrounding and possessing a concious mind or having the capability to experience emotions. This is precisely what is ment. For example: my cat is sentient to a certain extent, I am more sentient as I can percieve more nuances in both awareness and emotions. Sapience is irrelevent here.
I'm not a game designer and I don't ever plan to be, but a lot of what they talk about can be applied to art in general. In fact I haven't seen an episode that didn't apply to TV shows, movies, or books.
I think this is one of my favorite episodes of the series. Not having had the patience to play through any mass effect game, it's amazing to hear that this choice exists, and I hope more developers can be this thought-provoking in the future.
I agree that having both options be Renegade would have been an interesting design.
Anyway, when making the choice (that I had to think over, something few games do), I finally decided to take Legion's advice and think differently. Hence why I brainwashed them: Geth operate thanks to knowledge gained and removing the data that sect had felt like a waste and it would have diminished the Geth overall, since you cannot think of them as individuals but as a whole. Still felt like the lesser evil.
I love how, you can compare the part in Mass Effect to the persecution of homosexuals and such... I think you are really reading too much into this no matter what you are saying. I think Mass Effect is actually not clever enough to do that intentionally, just because they have bible references in the game, doesn't mean they are clever, also there could be a third option that the game doesn't give you at all. Mass Effect just fails as a game in a lot of ways.
A. More geth to fight with me later on, yes its brainwashing them is horrible, but i need all the help i can get in the near future (ME3), i chose the pragmatic route.
B. i kill them for their beliefs, which i feel is the greater evil cause you COULD rewrite them back if you REALLY wanted or give them what they want.
to put it another away, Legion even stated you can't think about Geth like humans, as they are so different, he claims its racist.
In this last year I've seen more and more of the religious antics in the US so now I reach the same conclusion to that question faster than when I was first confronted with it.
The reasoning is still the same. As much as I dislike destroying beings, I feel it's even worse to oppose another's belief on them.
Of course, since this year that last part is added with "that sounds like what religious people would do"
I think the situation in that particular mission is all the more interesting and complicated because of the nature of the geth. It doesn't just ask what it is to be human, but what it is to be sentient, too. The geth are a gestalt-intelligence, little more than simple software individually, but a fully-realised sapience in large numbers - this is something that we'll need to confront when the first AI comes around, because its component-parts will almost surely be "just software" to us.
I agree that such difficult moral questions are one of the things that has "enriched" my life most from video games. I played KotoR at a fairly young age and it made me very interested in some tough philosophical questions.
I chose to rewrite them for two main reasons, 1. When the Reapers come we need all the allies we can get. 2. Death and Destruction are detrimental to the group regardless of the individuals preference, which is why peace is so preferable in almost all situations.
I also agree that as long as games use "good/evil" systems, it restricts the ability for there to be complex dialogue on the subject. I would much prefer that they create a more complex morality system (ie several sliders on different aspects), or for the incredibly difficult questions they give no points either way (unless you are asked to justify why you did it, and those comments lead to paragon or renegade).
The only game I've played that had such a stirring choice in it that I can recall is Bastion. The first choice is one that I picked immediately, which I'm sure speaks volumes about me. The final choice, though, took me plenty of time to decide. I really had no idea what the right answer was.
The only thing I don't love about this episode is that you seems to claim that referencing the bible makes the designers and the game automatically more high minded.
@LordLaharlsVassal I don't see how it doesn't; I'd say, considering the mark that the game might have aimed at, being thoughtful enough to reference and thematically borrow from any literary work is automatically more high minded.
@LordLaharlsVassal I think the point is that referencing a bible verse which has a specific meaning is just proof that this question of wondering whether brainwashing the Geth is good or not is indeed what the developers had in mind, and not just something the Extra Credits people just made up; the bible's verse being about Jesus goddam Christ (questionnable historical figure but still archetype of the ultimate good guy) being in the Geths' position. Its makes their authors' intention clearer.
@LordLaharlsVassal It wasn't because it was the bible, it was because it was a reference to something period. The bible is a popular choice simply due to the popularity of the book, ensuring more players could get the reference. Especially considering they seemed to take a negative stance on religion in this same episode it's clear they don't revere the bible.
@xipheonj i dont play space game that much but i notice,at least in those that i played (zone of enders,infinite space,mass effect,dont remenber more) when they talk about religion (mass effect and infinite space,zone of enders doesnt touch the topic) they put the religion as a minority
@LordLaharlsVassal It's that they are referencing to other things in real life to drive home the point harder. It's not that the Devs are smarter for knowing the bible, its that the Devs are smarter for knowing how to make the point more relevant and giving the gamer another avenue in which to understand what is happening/ happened.
This is my one problem with the Bioware moral choice system. While I did think about the problem afterwards, I had no hesitation actually choosing because I wanted the paragon points.
Another Good example of a moral choice that had me stumped for 15 minuts was the ending choice in Bastion.
Spoiler!!!!!! WARNING!! Spoiler!!!!
In that you can ether rewrite all that has happens in the game and hope for a better outcome next time or move on with the world and the choices you have made. What is better a possible never ending cycle of death and destruction or moving on after the world has fallen apart? there was no good or evil choice in there just a choice.
if the reaper weren`t there as a threat,this question would have been much harder to answer.but the war has to be fought and you need more soldiers,that overall more people survive.that is the logical decision for this particular problem
Its strange, but i dont think making our beliefs is what makes us humans, I have very little choice over my beliefs, I fact I cant believe that 2+2=5, how could I? Still I am human, ist rather offensive to feel alienated by humanity according to James Portnow, just because we dont make choices in belief. I highly disagree with James on that. But I am all for enriching lives.
Really the renegade points mean reacting without thinking, or thinking with your fists. Surely looking for a fight with the geth would then become a renegade choice. But doesn't it come down to whether or not you thought long and hard about your decision? they could base your choices on how aggressive you played or how contemplating and story driven your answers are.
@AtholAnderson Yeah, I was exactly the same, I posted my comment at practically the same time, it's just bodies, I don't really care for the morality of it, war isn't moral
@CroGamer002 Yeah, it kind of does. In the way that paragon and renegade are established in mass effect, they mean exactly that. Shoot a guy in the foot for yelling? renegade. Be a cunt to everyone around you, break talis herat, shit on your teammates, betray everyone and generally be soulless? renegade. Shit angels and poop ego stroking? Paragon.
@CroGamer002 While that is, in theory, true, many of the renegade options does show a reckless disregard for others, while most of the paragon choices are the opposite. Not all, mind you, but too many for them to not turn into a good/evil scale, rather than a lawful/chaotic scale (which I find about as boring as a good/evil scale, choices are rarely that simple. Just look at how Alpha Protocol handled things for a good example of choices done right).
I've never thought of the "paragon" and "renegade" choices in Mass Effect as "good" or "evil." In the end, no matter which path you lean toward, you're trying to do good in Mass Effect. Renegade is just usually the more apparently harsh and blatant of the two options.
The flaw in this mission is no matter what you do there is no choice/freewill. Is pointing a gun at someone and saying you must do x freedom? NO! It doesn't matter if you shoot them or not choice and freedom never entered the equation.
calypsopainting 1 week ago
This video makes me feel terrible for taking the Paragon route in ME 2 >< Yet another replay is needed I feel...
TheSilverSkeejee 2 weeks ago
Philosophy has questions that can never be answered. Religion has answers that can never be questioned.
humosa2 2 weeks ago in playlist Uploaded videos 5
you should talk about dark souls. it does almost everything right
sorry987654321 2 weeks ago
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LudusVan 2 weeks ago in playlist More videos from ExtraCreditz
I think the example in Mass Effect was a little simpler than the video states. The question itself is pretty profound, but it's implied that the Reapers had indoctrinated the heretics to follow them instead of their original beliefs. Instead of turning them away from their self-found beliefs, the virus would more or less bring them back to their original state of mind.
The Paragon and Renegade points might also come from Shepard gaining allies to ultimately save the universe. "The greater good"
MrGoplemms 2 weeks ago
having played through the game several times I didn't even consider the philosophical "ramifications". I was more thinking ... I could use the extra numbers in the next game. I wasn't sure, however I'm not sure how their added data will influence the collective in ME3.
We face this attempt at reprogramming every time we turn on the TV. Every story in every show has an idea or topic it's "pushing". Ads do the same thing. The psychology around ads is pernicious.
1rgam3r 2 weeks ago
That was a great episode, but you slipped up at the end. The game never claims that Paragon and Renegade are 'good' or 'evil'. If you'll excuse the D&D reference, they're clearly Lawful and Chaotic, respectively. A police officer who did things 'by the book' wouldn't want to cause more death and collateral damage than necessary, while a 'cowboy cop' would do anything for justice. That's the difference between Paragon and Renegade.
IAmOnFyre 2 weeks ago
@IAmOnFyre
great analogy. While I've went with the "good and evil" thing in my head, I think you've put a more accurate definition to it.
1rgam3r 2 weeks ago
I know you made reference to homosexuals, the mentally ill and those being punished by the church and you made a good point, but those groups were in the right and being victimized for something they couldn't control about themselves. But in the modern age we still work to cure mental illness. And in this situation, the geth sect that wants to kill you is crazy, they are wrong, in their belief. And being as they're also machines you could argue that they're broken as well.
NurseJackal 2 weeks ago
Two guys fall down the chimney..one guys face is dirty from the ash the other guys face is clean..who thinks he's dirty? Not the guy who is dirty as he is looking at a clean face..so you think its the guy with the clean face right?..well you fell in the trap because the whole situation is unrealistic to begin with...so if you think you can learn from a question like that you must be stupid
enschede7522 2 weeks ago
Honestly, I would consider just leaving it. Perhaps I don't have to take it's life, but why should I use such drastic measures as to wipe its mind? Why not let it make its own choice? I understand that it's not an option in the game, and I don't know the complete scenario, but I believe that one should make their own choice. If they ignore the mercy granted to them, that's their choice, and it may die for its beliefs. But beliefs can change. And without direct intervention.
psychovamp6667 2 weeks ago
Hmm, really interesting. So THIS is why I love (j)rpgs so much. Good to know.
Yous0147 2 weeks ago
I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't " brain wash " them. Human or not, power is power. Why destroy it when you could harness it. A better example imho is dealing with the guys brother hooked into the computer. In a way I regret letting him go.
HockadayIX 2 weeks ago
Ah yes, play the beyond good and Evil tune and you got it all rounded up. That game is all about making choices, though it's strangely enough a linear story line, a game that one simple base, shows us many aspects of society and not knowing what is good and what is right... Plus I just freaking love that song!
BeeryGamer 2 weeks ago
When i reached this point in the game, it also took me a while to decide what to do. and well, it taught me that in that in reality. i'd rather have someone live on with different beliefs than what they had, rather than die for having them.
nintendomanofgod 2 weeks ago
Brain wash em. Total control = total power Mus-hahaha!
davideshafer 2 weeks ago
If i had a choose to kill or reprogram some one, i will chose reprogram.
I value life greater then that persons belief.
If they are alive they have beliefs, and perhaps can change em, dead they have none.
I rather not be a mass murderer, committing genocide because some ones else's beliefs mattered more then allot of life.
Life matters more.
Life can be changed, death is final.
fw2k 2 weeks ago
@fw2k Don't get mad
But who are you to determine whether their beliefs are wrong in the case of the Geth,they believe the Reapers to be their God and organic life is inferior to them,and does not deserve to exist,just because that puts you at risk does not mean they are wrong.IMO reprogramming is no different then killing because you have taken that person and wholly changed them into something different.Death may be final but So MightThis ChangeAnd if TheOutcome IsTheSameWhat is the difference?
leozilla1 2 weeks ago
@leozilla1 Who am i to take a life when i can spare it?
Who says change is equal to death?
I said nothing about the value of their beliefs.
EXCEPT that i value their lives moire then it.
Changing some one or some thing is not the same as death.
fw2k 2 weeks ago
@fw2k thats what makes the question so amazing, it can be viewed by so many different perspectives...
terriblefate21 2 weeks ago
@fw2k There's a movie called Hunger, with Michael Fassbender, in which his character would rather die of starvation than to conform to the beliefs he didn't share.
BigTimage 2 weeks ago
@BigTimage And this matters how?
Did he force his views on others to save their lives?
No?
Then WHY ARE YOU TELLING ME THIS!
Taking your own life, i do not give a shit, going to kill others?
I am going to fking stop you if i can.
See the difference?
The difference between taking a life and saving one?
fw2k 2 weeks ago
@fw2k Dude, calm down. =| I'm just saying there's the possibility that some people will die for a cause. Jeez.
BigTimage 2 weeks ago
@fw2k How much you can change a person until he stops being himself? If your whole personality is changed are you even you anymore? Isn't the person you were effectively dead after the brainwash? What I see asked here is not whether you let them live or kill them but whether you turn them in to zombies after you've killed them. (Although as many already pointed out: Army of zombies=handy.)
MyHabbits 2 weeks ago 5
@MyHabbits If for example my mother was crazy, and making her take a pill that stopped her for being crazy rather then having me be forced to kill her, what do you expect me to chose?
The humane option, right?
"Yes but that pill changes her so she is better of dead"
Bullshit!
Better changed then dead, now zombies and alive is completely different.
ZOMBIES ARE DEAD!
Alive means fully functional in all ways that matter.
I state again, better changed then dead!
fw2k 2 weeks ago
@fw2k I didn't mean anyone would be better off dead than changed to something they do not wish to be. I just meant they're gone forever, as good as dead. You might as well shoot the original, clone him/her, and insert a new preferable personality into the clone. If you want to use the pill on your mother go ahead (thats what I would do) but you can't deny that the raving psycho who didn't want to be cured and who was your mother is now gone and you made it so. Now you have mom version 2.0.
MyHabbits 2 weeks ago
@MyHabbits Again with the "as good as dead."
Change is not equal death, cut of my finger and i am changed, but i am not as good as dead.
A preacher convinces me of following his brand or creed, i am changed, not "as good as dead"
I take a bad fall and decide to take things more carefully, i am changed but not as "good as dead."
I do a crime and do time, i am changed but not fking "good as dead".
I get hit in the head, my whole personality changes, but i am still not "as good as dead"
fw2k 2 weeks ago
@fw2k **would rather die for a cause. My bad.
BigTimage 2 weeks ago
I will play this game... I will make it to that end decision... and I will refuse to continue.
:)
I had a similar experience with a comic. By turning the page I doomed innocents to die, and it was argued that as a human, I would let them die anyway. I stopped... I thought for about half an hour... really thinking what it was I wanted to do, and what it meant about me.
After a lot of thought and some amazing introspection I decided to close the book, and let it be.
:)
AgentKarkis 3 weeks ago
@xipheonj
Negative stance on religion? A portion of the video was about how James himself would rather die fighting for his beliefs then to have his beliefs taken away from him and so chose to let the Geth fight. What video are you watching?
Coruptin 3 weeks ago
@Coruptin belief doesnt mean religion,other than that i dont see them taking any stance about religion
darckjo 3 weeks ago
what about catherine?
darckjo 3 weeks ago
Fallout New Vegas asked me "Who do you trust more? An unknown Artificial Intelligence? Or a known narcissistic man?"
Aurini 3 weeks ago
I chose to approach from a "prep for war" type of mind set.
Also it is not the referencing of the Bible that makes it high minded, but rather the dual referencing of the subject at hand that makes it high minded; they could have made a good norse mythology reference and still come out looking good.
nickkuroshi0 3 weeks ago
They read way too much into the game. Kill or convert. Obviously convert. The option isn't fight and maybe get lucky, or fight and maybe take the other guy down too, it's simply dying. If you're converted, there's probability down the road that you or others like you can reconvert. Dying means there's no chance of that at all.
DimmedDiamond 3 weeks ago
The Deus Ex games does this so well especially at the ending. The endings make you think what is best for mankind? None of them are happy endings, one is let the Illuminati control believing they will keep the status-Que by keeping power, one is a AI god benevolent dictatorship that will link humanity through reason, or plunge the world into the dark age but nobody will rule over the people.
saintsknight986 3 weeks ago
I remember that one decision very well. Have played through the game nine times, and every single time I had to stop and think at that point.
SantaBJ 3 weeks ago
I would argue though that "renegade" and "paragon" still somewhat fits the two choices here. The ruthless renegade seems to me more likely to choose a "LIBERTY OR DEATH" option, no? While the Paragon would value life above anything else? I dunno, I think it sorta fits the two archetypes at play here, I dont think the Paragon vs. Renegade thing is as simple as Good vs Evil, I always felt it was a bit more nuanced than that. Some choices in the game do somewhat reinforce that vision however...
FrankieSmileShow 3 weeks ago
@FrankieSmileShow But that kind of brings to light the subjectivity of 'good' -- so many religions believe they are doing 'good' by imposing their beliefs on others, whether it be indoctrination of children, or jihad against the 'kaffirs'. So to say that valuing life above all else (even free will) is 'good'/altruistic is wrong. Please don't read anything into the examples given, there is no religion innocent of imposing their belief of what is right/good on others.
cortezraes 3 weeks ago
@cortezraes But that is kind of what I'm saying. I am not sure Paragon is really meant to equate "good" just as "Renegade" isn't meant to equate "evil". The renegade is the free thinking, cynical, independent rogue who lives on the edge. The paragon is the one who doesn't care about moral relativism nearly as much as about avoiding massive genocide. Of course it feels off if you see the two paths as "good" or "evil", but that's why they don't use these words to describe the two character paths.
FrankieSmileShow 3 weeks ago
@FrankieSmileShow catherine take that point better,there is not bad or good,there is freedom or order
darckjo 3 weeks ago
1:00
JainaSoloB312 3 weeks ago
oh yeah, Diablo 3 is gonna enrich my life sooo much... oh wait..
Hodovnik 3 weeks ago
The ending of the original Deus Ex left me in a similar state. Keep up the good work, guys!
optiluiz 3 weeks ago
Also, I'd rather go with the whole "rewrite" thing. Not to undermine others beliefs, but I just don't like violence, and even if you go down fighting for you beliefs, all that's left is a pile of dead people, as I see it.
Rubberman202 3 weeks ago
I don't remember this segment of Mass Effect 2, with 3 on its way I think I should replay it.
HCSEJamvaan 3 weeks ago
I like the fact that there is no "right or wrong" answer, and that this truly IS a good example of a "moral choice". Unfortunately, it automatically loses the gold star it earns by attaching a "good or bad" thing to it, meaning that the designers still see one thing as good and the other thing as bad, when really, both sides have their own positives and negatives... from a certain point of view.
Rubberman202 3 weeks ago
Daniel,
I chose to rewrite them. Not because I think it's "in their best interest" or because "they don't know how evil they are." My loyalty was to the mission to save all sentient life in the galaxy (including the geth). As I pondered it...it occurred to me that their "heresy" was EVOLUTIONARY. That means, to me, that they will still evolve over time and perhaps rediscover their beliefs. Short term, I needed them intact, but the choice could be reversed or at least be accounted for later
floundericiousWA 3 weeks ago
My response to this decision was pragmatic: I wanted a powerful Geth faction on my side against the reapers, and one more likely to play nice with the rest of the galaxy. I was still uncomfortable with the decision, though... while I had a hard time stomaching the utter destruction of half a species, interfering with their free will didn't sit well either. Especially after watching this video, I might choose the other option next time.
imorriso1 3 weeks ago
I love it when a game makes me think and cringe on a desicion like this, I can't win either way, because destruction is well evil, and brainwashing, also evil. I picked Brain washing for the help they might give me in the future but even then I feel sick to my stomach
Tenkagethewise 3 weeks ago
I remember my moment, in the original KoToR during the Kashyyyk mission. Playing for maximum Dark alignment, I struggled to find a choice path at its conclusion that would not result in Wookie slavery. With no other Dark option available, I make the choice, then stopped playing for a week. I couldn't go back to the game, and felt utterly depressed. On playing this very moment that James stopped at, there was no hesitation: death is better than slavery.
RedScholarGypsy 3 weeks ago
@RedScholarGypsy Yea, I stopped playing when my ME2 crew got killed. I didn't come to their rescue but instead decided to do a side mission first. That outcome hit me pretty hard. With only 1 save file I finally started over again a month later with just 1 mission in mind: Not letting my crew down ever again!
SymonS 3 weeks ago
In this particular situation I had it easy because I don't lock myself down to one moral pathway, (I do not mean Paragon and Renegade) I mean I honestly choose to be morally ambiguous. Here the decision actually was (for me) deny the Reapers access to one of the few races who's technology is not based on their own or increase the access of the Milkyway's inhabitants have to that same technology. The Geth don't lose anything (apart from an illusionary sense of free will) and many millions gain.
Gibbons3457 3 weeks ago
It's a problem when they use the bible to clue the player in, however, rather than more commonly accepted references. Atheists, such as myself (Who make up the growing majority of certain parts of the European market,) have a good reason to not recognise any sort of religious canonical references. It's the task of the designer to find parables that would be clear to anyone on their target audence.
JodaSFU 3 weeks ago
@JodaSFU Eh. Biblical references are common enough in our society that I don't think it's a problem, especially when the reference isn't critical to understanding. I don't see it as any different than referencing Shakespeare or Nietzsche, which also require the reader to know other works of literature. Speaking as an atheist, I am absolutely for biblical references in games. Judeo-Christian mythology is a rich source for inspiration.
imorriso1 3 weeks ago
@imorriso1 I suppose that's true. The thing is, I don't know half the references mentioned in this episode, for instance. Everyone knows the prodigal son and fall of man and the temptation of jesus, for instance, but it's a problem when they use more obscure references (like the ones with Thane and Garrus I have no idea what those passages are even about.)
JodaSFU 3 weeks ago
@JodaSFU Christ I'm really screwing up my grammar. Insert periods as needed.
JodaSFU 3 weeks ago
@JodaSFU Okay, sure, but were the sequences in the game negatively impacted by not getting the reference? Not really. However, to people who do know the references, there's an extra layer to consider. The obscurity of the references isn't a strike against them if the plots were compelling enough without them. Besides: the myths that have survived are the ones that have relevance. Drawing inspiration from them can borrow some of that power, whether or not the viewer knows the source.
imorriso1 3 weeks ago
went to discuss in the forums, to find a page saying "this topic does not exist" :(
agent42q 3 weeks ago
3:21 looks like Mr. Saturn
fmartinez18 3 weeks ago
I would be a bit disappointed if noone in ME3 (after you pick to destroy them) comments on how an entire Geth army would be quite useful at times like these..
1555736 3 weeks ago
I reprogrammed the geth, not thinking much of it and now I just feel bad.
JackHortonFilms 3 weeks ago
the way I approached this problem is They killed Humans they used human corps as tools and turned them into mindless husk and on top of that your fighting a war if Legion hadn't asked me not to destroy them I would have but I saw effortlessly and painlessly reprogramming someone as a preferable alternative
SgtKaneGunlock 3 weeks ago
the thing is in the game were not letting the "evil" geth have a fighting chance we would just kill em off thats why genocide<<reprogramming
in the real world of course we couldn't reprogram people because you can't kill an idea
still a rly good episode
spinnenente 3 weeks ago
This episode should be a corner stone of the argument when debated before congress if Video Gaming is an art form.
theredviola 3 weeks ago
Seriously I don't know what it is but its suck a fight to watch Extra Credits on youtube. The videos never load until like the 7th refresh. Its like this with every episode too. I think there is a conspiracy against these guys.
corpral 3 weeks ago
As for this question. It wasn't a very hard one for me. I picked to reprogram them. Why? Well I already don't believe that you have absolute right to your own beliefs and absolute right to free speech. They are both very important, but they have limits. And very destructive beliefs, unconsciously or not, shouldn't be allowed imo. In the case of the geth, the belief was basically the destruction of all evolved races. So I chose to reprogram them, and strengthen the good cause.
Sanquinity 3 weeks ago
@Sanquinity (SPOILER) Now a question I found harder, was to destroy the base at the end of the game or not. I mean, hand it over to the elusive man to strengthen you, but allow very dangerous technology to keep existing. Or destroy it, but possibly cripple your chances at fighting the reapers that are still to come.
Sanquinity 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Sanquinity
"They are both very important, but they have limits" do they don't
255ad 3 weeks ago
I have to agree CroGamer002; Paragon/Renegade do not correspond to good/evil and are never clearly displayed as such in Mass Effect. If you've ever seen/done a full Renegade or Paragon run, you'll notice that while Renegade is more insulting and Paragon is mostly nicer, Paragon also lies much more often while Renegade is usually very upfront about things. I always thought that the two terms mean Persuasion/Intimidation, both of which are morally questionable, but ultimately serve a good purpose.
rainerbe 3 weeks ago
The smart choice would be to assimilate them; you need all the help you can get fighting the reapers. Personally though, i killed them all. Just because "they dont know better" doesnt clear them from their actions. That's like if you brainwash a raper to the extend he does not know he did and wont do it again, the damage has already been done and is unforgivable. To me, such people dont deserve a place in our society and should be eradicated. Just my thoughts.
BladeBloodreaver 3 weeks ago
I think that this was my favorite moment in the game, because it asks whether it is better to die free or to live on not even knowing you are enslaved. The Reapers are bad business and so you are, technically, in the right since the reapers would likely destroy the geth anyway, but at the same time I consider it a fate worse than death to be mind-slaved. Meanwhile, all those extra soldiers would certainly bolster the chances in the fight. In the end, I killed them and called it mercy.
Jeroic9 3 weeks ago
@Jeroic9 As a note, I always play paragon. Screw the renegade points, it was better.
Jeroic9 3 weeks ago
I found this perticular episode interesting as when I got to that part of the game I didn't wish for alter their beliefs for my own whim as that in itself removes my "humanity" (and yeah I'm a believer so biased) but looking at it in sheer logistical point of view, the numbers of allied troops the 'brainwash' would make would help in the final battle for sentient life-and the geth (to me anyway) were the only race that could essentially best the reapers as they were not bound by their technology
dragonzardman 3 weeks ago
It's a rare thing to see religious implications on the internet being handled respectfully and intelligently.
ExtraCredits, I have a tremendous amount of respect for you.
makkon06 3 weeks ago
You mean sapient. Sentient is anything with senses, everyone should realize when to use sapient.
635574 3 weeks ago
@635574 The race they describe are sentient because they're machines with a conciousness. Sentient is not a wrong adjective to use.
Gn3rd 3 weeks ago
@635574 No, you're wrong. Sapient means a being capable of sound judgement or great wisdom and is not what is ment here. Sentience is correct, aware of itself and it's surrounding and possessing a concious mind or having the capability to experience emotions. This is precisely what is ment. For example: my cat is sentient to a certain extent, I am more sentient as I can percieve more nuances in both awareness and emotions. Sapience is irrelevent here.
TornadoCreator 3 weeks ago
I'm not a game designer and I don't ever plan to be, but a lot of what they talk about can be applied to art in general. In fact I haven't seen an episode that didn't apply to TV shows, movies, or books.
Ruach 3 weeks ago
I thought of 1 thing at this question a quote from a American man "give me liberty or give me death" i gave them death in it i hope they find peace.
BahamutDKing 3 weeks ago
I think this is one of my favorite episodes of the series. Not having had the patience to play through any mass effect game, it's amazing to hear that this choice exists, and I hope more developers can be this thought-provoking in the future.
bomberboy99 3 weeks ago
I agree that having both options be Renegade would have been an interesting design.
Anyway, when making the choice (that I had to think over, something few games do), I finally decided to take Legion's advice and think differently. Hence why I brainwashed them: Geth operate thanks to knowledge gained and removing the data that sect had felt like a waste and it would have diminished the Geth overall, since you cannot think of them as individuals but as a whole. Still felt like the lesser evil.
Radintoriov 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I love how, you can compare the part in Mass Effect to the persecution of homosexuals and such... I think you are really reading too much into this no matter what you are saying. I think Mass Effect is actually not clever enough to do that intentionally, just because they have bible references in the game, doesn't mean they are clever, also there could be a third option that the game doesn't give you at all. Mass Effect just fails as a game in a lot of ways.
droppingpenny 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
droppingpenny 3 weeks ago
Continued
Our views of what is right or wrong, how we identify ourselves, we can't do that with the geth, as they are so very different, and Legion's right.
ShadowWolfRising 3 weeks ago
well i looked at it in a different perspective.
A. More geth to fight with me later on, yes its brainwashing them is horrible, but i need all the help i can get in the near future (ME3), i chose the pragmatic route.
B. i kill them for their beliefs, which i feel is the greater evil cause you COULD rewrite them back if you REALLY wanted or give them what they want.
to put it another away, Legion even stated you can't think about Geth like humans, as they are so different, he claims its racist.
ShadowWolfRising 3 weeks ago
I rewrote the Geth for the over arching advantage. Combining the two Geth factions gives Shepard a stronger ally in the future.
GeoRyukaiser 3 weeks ago
@GeoRyukaiser
Seriously... it was much less of a moral dillema and more of a strategic choice.
Besides, it was exactly the same thing the reaper allied geth wanted to do to the other ones... and I love having to feed someone their own medicine.
TheCraziestFox 3 weeks ago
In this last year I've seen more and more of the religious antics in the US so now I reach the same conclusion to that question faster than when I was first confronted with it.
The reasoning is still the same. As much as I dislike destroying beings, I feel it's even worse to oppose another's belief on them.
Of course, since this year that last part is added with "that sounds like what religious people would do"
tiaxanderson 3 weeks ago
you know this never seemed like it was asking what does it mean to be human more asking what do you value more ideas or lives
Gradamit 3 weeks ago
I love how like 90% of extra credits episodes on youtube have like only 1 or 2 dislikes. Even the trolls can't argue with these guys!
gsparx25 3 weeks ago 41
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DemXL 3 weeks ago
That music at the end of this video... I'm proud of myself as a gamer to have recognized it.
The1truesushiboy 3 weeks ago
I think the situation in that particular mission is all the more interesting and complicated because of the nature of the geth. It doesn't just ask what it is to be human, but what it is to be sentient, too. The geth are a gestalt-intelligence, little more than simple software individually, but a fully-realised sapience in large numbers - this is something that we'll need to confront when the first AI comes around, because its component-parts will almost surely be "just software" to us.
Senyako 3 weeks ago
Lol, today an expansion for Victoria II was released, It's called A House Divided. Strange coincidence.
Frasenius9 3 weeks ago
James got Renegade points! >D
Actually, I destroyed them for the good of the Quarians...
SpanishBroomaker 3 weeks ago
I could have learned something from this question... but then I saw that one choice gave you renegade point XD
Dresos 3 weeks ago
i was never able to brainwash them even while being renagade
starhaven321 3 weeks ago
I agree that such difficult moral questions are one of the things that has "enriched" my life most from video games. I played KotoR at a fairly young age and it made me very interested in some tough philosophical questions.
I chose to rewrite them for two main reasons, 1. When the Reapers come we need all the allies we can get. 2. Death and Destruction are detrimental to the group regardless of the individuals preference, which is why peace is so preferable in almost all situations.
Wolfau5 3 weeks ago
I also agree that as long as games use "good/evil" systems, it restricts the ability for there to be complex dialogue on the subject. I would much prefer that they create a more complex morality system (ie several sliders on different aspects), or for the incredibly difficult questions they give no points either way (unless you are asked to justify why you did it, and those comments lead to paragon or renegade).
Wolfau5 3 weeks ago
The only game I've played that had such a stirring choice in it that I can recall is Bastion. The first choice is one that I picked immediately, which I'm sure speaks volumes about me. The final choice, though, took me plenty of time to decide. I really had no idea what the right answer was.
MrShinyObject 3 weeks ago in playlist More videos from ExtraCreditz 2
I chose tho other option. gonna need all the help u can to save the galaxy in ME3. hey yo geth, help me out.
son12509 3 weeks ago
The only thing I don't love about this episode is that you seems to claim that referencing the bible makes the designers and the game automatically more high minded.
LordLaharlsVassal 3 weeks ago 7
@LordLaharlsVassal I don't see how it doesn't; I'd say, considering the mark that the game might have aimed at, being thoughtful enough to reference and thematically borrow from any literary work is automatically more high minded.
standinstann 3 weeks ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@LordLaharlsVassal Well, if you set aside the crazies from religion. The bible itself does have some good interesting dilemmas and moral stories.
youtubian2500 3 weeks ago
@LordLaharlsVassal I think the point is that referencing a bible verse which has a specific meaning is just proof that this question of wondering whether brainwashing the Geth is good or not is indeed what the developers had in mind, and not just something the Extra Credits people just made up; the bible's verse being about Jesus goddam Christ (questionnable historical figure but still archetype of the ultimate good guy) being in the Geths' position. Its makes their authors' intention clearer.
FrankieSmileShow 3 weeks ago
@LordLaharlsVassal It wasn't because it was the bible, it was because it was a reference to something period. The bible is a popular choice simply due to the popularity of the book, ensuring more players could get the reference. Especially considering they seemed to take a negative stance on religion in this same episode it's clear they don't revere the bible.
xipheonj 3 weeks ago 8
@xipheonj i dont play space game that much but i notice,at least in those that i played (zone of enders,infinite space,mass effect,dont remenber more) when they talk about religion (mass effect and infinite space,zone of enders doesnt touch the topic) they put the religion as a minority
darckjo 3 weeks ago
@LordLaharlsVassal It's that they are referencing to other things in real life to drive home the point harder. It's not that the Devs are smarter for knowing the bible, its that the Devs are smarter for knowing how to make the point more relevant and giving the gamer another avenue in which to understand what is happening/ happened.
Glory123145 3 weeks ago
@LordLaharlsVassal The only thing I don't like about this comment is that atheists think religion is for idiots.
Sora744 2 weeks ago
@LordLaharlsVassal They just trying to give a reference from popular literary works so the viewer can understand better. That's my opinion.
Kel10ization 2 weeks ago
This is my one problem with the Bioware moral choice system. While I did think about the problem afterwards, I had no hesitation actually choosing because I wanted the paragon points.
sababwl 3 weeks ago
Another Good example of a moral choice that had me stumped for 15 minuts was the ending choice in Bastion.
Spoiler!!!!!! WARNING!! Spoiler!!!!
In that you can ether rewrite all that has happens in the game and hope for a better outcome next time or move on with the world and the choices you have made. What is better a possible never ending cycle of death and destruction or moving on after the world has fallen apart? there was no good or evil choice in there just a choice.
Dreadon1 3 weeks ago
if the reaper weren`t there as a threat,this question would have been much harder to answer.but the war has to be fought and you need more soldiers,that overall more people survive.that is the logical decision for this particular problem
daniel32876 3 weeks ago
Its strange, but i dont think making our beliefs is what makes us humans, I have very little choice over my beliefs, I fact I cant believe that 2+2=5, how could I? Still I am human, ist rather offensive to feel alienated by humanity according to James Portnow, just because we dont make choices in belief. I highly disagree with James on that. But I am all for enriching lives.
HilleInc 3 weeks ago
Really the renegade points mean reacting without thinking, or thinking with your fists. Surely looking for a fight with the geth would then become a renegade choice. But doesn't it come down to whether or not you thought long and hard about your decision? they could base your choices on how aggressive you played or how contemplating and story driven your answers are.
Chard6 3 weeks ago
I chose to not destroy them, for completely pragmatic reasons, it's more bodies to throw against the Reapers.
Sabin41 3 weeks ago
I went in with the mindset
Rewrite= More firepower v, Reapers
Delete= Less firepower v, Reapers
AtholAnderson 3 weeks ago
@AtholAnderson Yeah, I was exactly the same, I posted my comment at practically the same time, it's just bodies, I don't really care for the morality of it, war isn't moral
Sabin41 3 weeks ago
If it comes down to brainwashing (on only one point I must add) or genocide I pick brainwashing every time.
Craydon 3 weeks ago
Just like to say that:
Paragon =/= Good
Renegade =/= Evil
CroGamer002 3 weeks ago
@CroGamer002 Yeah, it kind of does. In the way that paragon and renegade are established in mass effect, they mean exactly that. Shoot a guy in the foot for yelling? renegade. Be a cunt to everyone around you, break talis herat, shit on your teammates, betray everyone and generally be soulless? renegade. Shit angels and poop ego stroking? Paragon.
PressXtonotdie 3 weeks ago
@CroGamer002 While that is, in theory, true, many of the renegade options does show a reckless disregard for others, while most of the paragon choices are the opposite. Not all, mind you, but too many for them to not turn into a good/evil scale, rather than a lawful/chaotic scale (which I find about as boring as a good/evil scale, choices are rarely that simple. Just look at how Alpha Protocol handled things for a good example of choices done right).
AFnord 3 weeks ago
@AFnord
Some Renegade and Paragon options are like that, most ain't.
CroGamer002 3 weeks ago
I've never thought of the "paragon" and "renegade" choices in Mass Effect as "good" or "evil." In the end, no matter which path you lean toward, you're trying to do good in Mass Effect. Renegade is just usually the more apparently harsh and blatant of the two options.
koolgool 3 weeks ago
:D
TcpfMs 3 weeks ago
Every game designer should watch Extra Creditz.
mudkipsmakemewet 3 weeks ago 79
@mudkipsmakemewet no everyone in the world should watch etra credits
DrFumbless 3 weeks ago
@mudkipsmakemewet Extra Creditz is good but it does not go deep enough into individual subjects.
DarkAntiU94 3 weeks ago
Completely excellent.
hamstersaur 3 weeks ago
This was one of my favorite episodes.
Made me proud to be a gamer.
Briancmwilliams 3 weeks ago 49
Swag
tuobniklat 3 weeks ago