Wayne LaPierre: What the 2nd Amendment is all About

[nobullshitever]

i've listened to this speech over and over,his words ring true,someone is peddling lies alright but its not LaPierre.the left's method is to defame the character of those whose arguments can't be defeated inthe open ring of ideas.like he said the constitution says it,we believe it,and that settles it

[nobullshitever]

at my age self defense with anything other than a firearm is a risk i'm not willing to take.i got my training from a retired DEA officer.he was of the opinion that the firearm was the weapon you go to when all others fail,so better to learn it first,then learn other skills/weapons as you can,if your inclined.when you need a gun to protect life no other weapon can match its effectiveness.

[billburns2]

Thanks for the table, but I still can't see where you are getting the following facts from:

2/3 of murder victims are criminals.

60% of rapes occur during home invasions.

That was what you stated, right?

Or did you make a mistake?

[MSL209]

The 2/3 or 67% is quoted from an FBI statistic publicated in 1994. The FBI UCS no longer stores that statistic on their site that I can find. Go on now and claim I'm making it up since you are all knowing. It does not matter. Since anyone with any wit knows that most gun crimes involve gang members killing other gang members and drug deals gone bad.

[billburns2]

You are making it up. Or else you found it on a pro-gun website and now realise it's bullshit.

"anyone with any wit knows"... sounding more like Wayne every day. For the last time - without the data you don't know, you're just guessing.

FBI homicide data 2008:

14180 homicides, of which:

133 were gang related

501 were drugs related.

Doesn't really tally with your claim, does it?

[MSL209]

I did make a mistake on the rape percentage.  The correction is in a post above.

[billburns2]

Still waiting for clarification of your FBI crime stats that don't seem to be published by the FBI

[MSL209]

fbi gov ucr cius2008 data table_01 html

My apologies, the figures are actually minutes not seconds. Your such a smart guy, figure out on your own how I got the "every minute" numbers from those statistics.

[billburns2]

"The U.N. disarmed the Tutsi population in advance of the genocide". Nonsense. Prove it. And I don't mean cut & paste more shit from Arthur Hu's website.

"Democracy still lives here" Yes it does. And the reason it exists is not because of your guns.

"Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year" Rubbish. I don't see that claim endorsed by the FBI.

Cause and effect. That's what you need to get straight here.

[MSL209]

How about this. I can't prove it is true. I do believe it.

And what kind of expert are you to say what is fact and what is not?

And really I don't have to justify my right to own firearms to you. It is my right whether it is on a little bit of paper or not.

You haven't proven anything. Other than you are rabidly anti gun.

Until you answer MY questions I will delete your posts. No more ducking and dodging the questions that contradict your views.

And clean up your language child.

[MSL209]

To be fair, I will not post anything further until my questions are answered.

[billburns2]

Deleting posts? That's what Hitler did right before he enacted gun control you know.

"I can't prove it is true. I do believe it"

Oh dear. I believe that the Earth is flat and that Elvis is still alive. Is that OK?

Actually I'm not anti gun, I'm anti gun bullsh*t (censored for your younger Christian viewers). Wayne LaPierre is the king of this stuff.

Please repeat your questions. I'm getting confused with all this slew of half truth and propaganda.

[MSL209]

If it would not have mattered either way, what was the purpose of disarming before committing genocide against all of those people?

What exactly do you propose? Disarm the law abiding civilians of the world? Render them sheep, so the wolves can have their way with them?

Why is it wrong for me to keep firearms for the protection of my family from those who wish to do them harm?

What makes you the expert?

[billburns2]

There is nothing wrong with having firearms. If you feel it's your 2nd Amendment right, then fine. If you feel safer owning a gun, then good for you. If you just like guns they're cool that's OK too.

What LaPierre tries to sell is the idea that a world WITHOUT guns will be like Sodom and Gomorrah within a week. It's simply not true - look at any European country to see the truth of that.

He twists facts, misuses quotes and uses emotive language to scare people into doing things HIS way.

[MSL209]

I believe the right to self defense is everyone's right 2A or not (yes even yours). A firearm is a tool used to protect oneself. I will respond to your LaPierre comment later.

That's an answer to one of my questions. How about the others?

One more question that I forgot to re-ask. What defense could you possibly put up against an armed (knife or firearm) criminal that has broken into your home?

That's an answer to one of my questions. How about the others?

[billburns2]

I also believe in the right to self defence. I just don't think that a gun is the best or only means of defence.

People who organise genocides don't need to disarm people. Sure, it might make it a bit easier but they'll still kill everyone regardless (look up Warsaw ghetto rising).

The idea that gun control preceded every genocide and that therefore gun control will lead to genocide is another NRA myth.

[MSL209]

And most all of the major cases of genocide, it was the many who were disarmed that were killed by the few who were armed. The Warsaw uprising was differend because it consisted of 1,000 or so poorly armed Jews against at least 3,300 German forces that were trained and had better weapons. The amazig part is that they actully held off trained soldiers for so long. Had a mere 10% of those 400,000 who resided in the ghetto had weapons they could have stood a better chance.

[MSL209]

Again then, I must ask, what defense do you have against someone who has broken into your home that is armed with a gun? If you do have two small children, then your responsibility to keep them safe is all the greater. If daddy is dead, who will protect them?

In May of this year in Ventura, CA a husband and wife were stabbed to death in front of their 9 yr old son. Random act of violence. The attacker confronted the wife and when the husband came to intervene they were both stabbed to death.

[MSL209]

Had the husband had a firearm, he could have shot the nut job and the only thing that would have been lost was one less waste of a human being. The world would have gained a little bit of safety because the bad guy would have been dead, never to kill again.

[billburns2]

An appalling tragedy. Fortunately this is about the rarest type of violent crime there is. Maybe one incident every year throughout the whole country. Yet the NRA want you to believe that In Cold Blood style assaults happens every day.

Also, considering the whole event was probably over in two or three minutes, how is that ever going to be enough time to get your hands on your gun? Unless you keep it loaded on your mantlepiece - which is unlikely if you have kids, right?

[MSL209]

To an extent you are right. They don't happen every day. Neither do house fires, but I still keep fire extinguishers...just in case.

The man came out form his bedroom. Most of the time the bedroom is where a firearm is kept. It takes seconds to ready a firearm even if it has a lock on it. Key is out of reach.

I really tire of your NRA bashing. I say again. I DO NOT GET MY INFORMATION FROM THE NRA. The only thing I get from the NRA is notifications of pending gun legislation.

[billburns2]

I'm not claiming you get all your information from the NRA, but this is YOUR video on YOUR channel and it's got Wayne LaPierre in it, so I'm assuming you rate the guy and his principles pretty highly

[MSL209]

To an extent you are right. They don't happen every day. Neither do house fires, but I still keep fire extinguishers...just in case.

The man came out form his bedroom. Most of the time the bedroom is where a firearm is kept. It takes seconds to ready a firearm even if it has a lock on it. Key is out of reach.

I really tire of your NRA bashing. I say again. I DO NOT GET MY INFORMATION FROM THE NRA. The only thing I get from the NRA is notifications of pending gun legislation.

[billburns2]

Around 2,500 people die in house fires every year. A house fire is a common ocurrence so it's reasonable to take precautions. A gang of masked raiders crashing through your door intent on killing all your family is extremely unlikely. You should be more worried about lightning stikes, tsunamis and tornados. They're far more likey to injure your family. The NRA wants you to live in fear. That's what they base their 2A arguments on.

[MSL209]

I will not gamble on what the intentions of home invaders or nut jobs that decide to shoot up a public place with my family's life, my life or even my neighbors. I secure my home and anyone breaking and entering into it is a potential threat.

What is funny, you bring up statistics that claim 10,821 gun homicides yet say that owning a gun is not a reasonable precaution? We are not even talking about the numbers of home invasions that take place annually.

[billburns2]

...and they were wiped out. Every man woman and child. Not a great advert for armed resistance is it?

The inconvenient truth is that an army will always outgun you. Having weapons in your home won't stop stuff like this happening. Life isn't like a Die Hard movie. If the 3am knock on the door is the Gestapo or the KGB or the Khmer Rouge then it's already too late.

[MSL209]

If 10% of the gun owners in the US banded together that would equate to 9 million. There are approximately 3 million enlisted in our military (not all ground fighting forces). They are already outnumbered if a mere 10% wanted to fight against them. Not to mention that they all took an oath to "defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic". Our population is 310 million. That is a lot of knocks on the door at night.

[billburns2]

Oh, for heaven's sake. Defending yourself against imaginary dictators who want to tyrannize the USA isn't a duty, it's an excuse for people who sit in dark rooms stroking their barrels. These are the sort of people who died at Waco. And yes, the guns WERE taken - out of their warm, crispy hands.

[MSL209]

It isn't a duty? This oath is taken by law enforcement, and military to name a few. This country was formed in the wake of tyranny. And it does not matter how you cut it or who repeats it, the Founding fathers of this nation set forth supreme laws of the land to ensure that this country is governed by its constituents and if the constituents became subjects they had a means to overthrow their govt and rebuild it they way they see fit.

[MSL209]

Waco...that thole thing was an act of lunacy on both parts. And there is so much conspiracy and bureaucratic red tape as well as garbage spread by the media surrounding that event that it is irrelevant.

I fail to see the relevance of the Waco Siege to a citizen's duty to their country.

[billburns2]

Law officers and the military NEED guns to do their jobs. Civilians don't.

Most modern countries were formed in the wake of tyranny, the rest of us don't feel that we have to be armed against our own governments though.

Waco is one of the rare instances where the gun nuts actually took action. They had it all planned out and a LOAD of firepower to take on an evil repressive State. I'm sure they were quoting Thomas Jefferson as the flames crept up the walls.

[MSL209]

It is my job to make sure my family is safe. Are we to assume then that ONLY military and police come in contact with criminals?

I don't care what the rest of the world thinks. I don't think we need worry to either, but as I stated again we remain prepared IF it ever is a necessity. If the necessity NEVER becomes a reality, then all the better.

They did hold off the ATF and then allowed themselves to burn to death. They had many opportunities to surrender.

[billburns2]

Well like I said, if you want to own a gun because it makes you feel safer then fine.

The premise that LaPierre puts forward - that gun ownership is practically an obligation unless you want to die horribly at the hands of marauding gangs of killers or Obama's suede denim secret police - is demonstrably bullshit.

[MSL209]

The fact that a mere 1000 poorly armed Jews held off 3,300 German forces comprising of at least 800 elite Waffen SS is impressive at the least. Again, if 10% of the 400k Jews were armed the outcome would have been different. When the citizens organize, the Gestapo, KGB and Khmer Rouge don't stand a chance.

The key is Guerrilla warfare.

[billburns2]

... and they were eliminated. Every last one of them. This is the big flaw in your argument.

If more Jews had been armed the Germans would have deployed more troops, more guns, more planes, more rockets. The army will always outgun you. Outcome will be the same

- and none of this has any relevence to 21st Century America.

[billburns2]

Sheep? Wolves? Is this Old McDonald's Farm?

NRA likes to use simplistic phrases like these to gloss over the facts. The USA is the ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD that constitutionally allows its citizens to hold guns. So have a look at every other country where guns are restricted - are the wolves having their way? NO. So why is LaPierre so convinced that the sky will fall in if he doesn't have his guns?

[MSL209]

The problem with your assertion is that I thinik you jump to the wrong conclusion. It is not the fear that it WILL happen it is the fear that it MIGHT and all people should be prepared. Great danger lies in the reliance of the notion that "that couldn't happen here". It could happen anywhere. You don't necessarily need to expect the unexpected, but it is wise to prepare for it. It is better to have and not need than need and not have.

[billburns2]

The issue of "need" is what this is all about. Sure, have a gun if you want to, but the NRA wants us all to believe we NEED guns - hence 2A. Problem is the USA gun laws certainly don't make for a safer country.

Consider this:

The violent crime rate in the USA is about the same as most developed countries.

The murder rate is MUCH higher.

The USA had 10,821 gun homicides in 2008.

England had 51

(yes I know the USA has 5x the population)

[MSL209]

Regardless of what the NRA thinks, I do understand the need and value of the firearm. You are right. Any law limiting the law abiding citizens' ability to defend themselves from attackers are less safe.

Well, 2/3 of those 10,821 were criminals, so IMO we are better off. Of those left 3,679. And even that number can be taken down since that number does not discriminate between murder and justified homicide.

[billburns2]

Justifiable homicide is usually around 3% of the total - according to DoJ

Where do you get the "2/3 were criminals" figures from?

[MSL209]

2/3 of the people that die each year from gunfire are criminals shooting other criminals. -FBI Uniform Crime Statistics

[billburns2]

Nope, can't find it. Can you point me to the relevant information / url?

[billburns2]

There is nothing wrong with protecting your family. I have 2 small kids, but I consider the danger posed by 2 nosey toddlers finding firearms and ammunition in my house to be far greater than the danger of an armed gang breaking into my house.

[MSL209]

A valid concern that is remedied by responsible gun ownership and child education (aka good parenting). Proof and fact. When I was 5 years old, the power of a gun was demonstrated to me. .357 vs a milk jug full of water and the explanation that what happened to the milk jug could happen to me or people I cared about was enough for me to never touch firearms. Furthermore, if you eliminate the curiosity you will have a less likelihood of a child playing with a gun.

[MSL209]

Case in point. I have a nephew that is not allowed ANY contact with any gun. Not even toys. My son does. Every time he comes to my home, he goes straight for the toy guns. No other toy matters. It is that extreme curiosity that scares me. For if he went to a home and found a real gun and was able to figure out how to use it he or others would indeed be in danger. Regardless I keep my firearms out of the reach of my children and do not feel they are old enough for the "gun demonstration".

[billburns2]

"if you eliminate the curiosity you will have a less likelihood of a child playing with a gun"

Great theory - but not one I want to test with my kids.

[MSL209]

Theory... That same .357 Magnum revolver hung on a sack on the front door of my home with the key in the lock and neither I nor my two younger sisters even thought of touching it. Nor the various rifles without locks that were stored in a hall closet. Obviously contradictory to anti-gun propaganda.  As is the other 90m gun owners that still have all of their children.

You still have yet to answer the question: What defense could you possibly offer against an armed intruder in your home?

[billburns2]

What is this obsession you have with armed intruders?

I put that risk into the same category as swarms of killer bees and meteorite strikes - i.e. so unlikely as not to be worth worrying about

Defend yourself against the probable, not against the hugely improbable

Personally I have a nice strong front door - so far it's been 100% effective against all armed intruders and swarms of killer bees. Won't work if I get hit by a meteorite though.

[MSL209]

Maybe the 2.2million+ burglaries that happened last year? One: property crime happens every 3 seconds, burglary occurs every 10 seconds, violent crime occurs every 20 seconds, robbery occurs every. minute. -FBI

38% of assaults & 60% of rapes occur during home invasions. 1 of every 5 homes will experience a break-in or home invasion. 50% of home invasions involve the use of a weapon. 48% of home invasions, victims sustain physical injuries. -DOJ

[MSL209]

Good God your right! I forgot they only come in through front doors...

And lock picks/bump keys don't exist either...

[MSL209]

Once more:

What defense could you possibly offer against an armed intruder in your home?

[billburns2]

How many more times do you want to ask the same question?

I can see that you don't like the answer. Here it is again:

I AM NOT CONCERNED WITH ARMED INTRUDERS ENTERING MY PROPERTY.

Sorry, but there it is. You may live in fear. I don't

[MSL209]

The answer would end the discussion. I already know the answer. You are merely avoiding it. I didn't ask you if you were concerned.

FACT: You couldn't do anything to protect yourself or your children or your wife if you have one. You've been legislated out of your right to protect yourself "for your own protection".

I don't live in fear either. Because I have a means of defense. I hope you never have to face an armed criminal because I'm sure you'll sing a different tune.

[billburns2]

Your concern for my family is touching but I've not been legislated out of anything, thanks.

I simply refuse to buy into your NRA indoctrinated fantasy of violent crime in the home. We're back to killer bees and meteorites.

You keep a loaded gun in your house to protect yourself against the bad guys (the ones that LaPierre has told you about) and you tell me you don't live in fear???

I hope for your sake that humming sound isn't what I think it is or I'm sure you'll sing a different tune.

[billburns2]

Here are some little nuggets of British legislation that the NRA don't want you to know:

Any adult can obtain a gun license that allows them to legally own shotguns or hunting rifles. Many thousands do.

The 1997 Firearms Act applied only to handguns. Handguns are simply not part of UK culture, never have been.

In 2003 a month-long gun amnesty resulted in 8000 people VOLUNTARILY handing their guns in. Not "confiscated" or "seized" - just people who didn't want them any more.

[billburns2]

(cont..)

The effect of all this on serious crime rates in thre UK?

Nothing.

Absolutely zero.

A bunch of people have been prosecuted for so-called "gun crime" - generally illegal possession or failure to have correct paperwork. There is a ridiculous 5 year mandatory jail term for these offences (these are the figures that pro-gunners like to trumpet).

It has affected gun collectors and our Olympic pistol shooting team. The effect on the average law-abiding Brit? Nada.

[MSL209]

And the effectiveness of any of the allowed long guns for home defense...none. No handguns, so when you are out in public and the next Dunbland massacre occurs you can cower and hope you don't become a victim.

Handgun crime 'up' despite ban - BBC

Gun crime soars by 35% -BBC

Analysis: UK gun crime figures - BBC

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. -Daily Mail UK

Gun Crime/Paperwork...prove it.

[MSL209]

I also, don't remember the NRA ever claiming long guns were banned. Seems like you are the one coming up with lies.

[billburns2]

The NRA likes to misrepresent the UK situation just as much as it likes to misrepresent anything that doesn't fit in with their world view.

In an essay about the ubiquity of sporting rifles in the UK they subtly change tack and talk about a ban on SEMI AUTOMATIC rifles in the late 1980s.

Licensing !

Registration !

Police checks !

The horror. The horror.

[MSL209]

I've seen the videos of angry British citizens. Heard their claims on how crime has risen after the ban. I put a whole lot more faith into their claims than yours.

Modern sporting rifles are semi-automatic rifles... Got a reference to this essay?

And as history has taught us, registration leads to or enables potential confiscation.

[billburns2]

Well you would - it fits entirely with your theories. Go look up the ACTUAL figures from the past 20 years and then get back to me. They're not hard to find

Your essay is at:

nraila org media misc lostrts

I'm guessing you don't have a URL for the missing FBI stats...

"history has taught us"

"leads to or enables"

wonderful NRA rhetoric. Bravo

Neither correct nor incorrect and no hard facts that can be easily disproved, just nice fuzzy feelings. The prefect propaganda.

[billburns2]

British law states that self defence is not a valid reason to apply for a gun license - that wasn't my point at all.

Dunblane?? So you are advocating handguns for toddlers? Armed Kindergarten cops? And you say you don't live in fear??

It's easy to prove. Look at the UK Home Office crime stats, they are broken down in a way that makes the nature of British gun crime very clear.

And give up with the old tabloid headlines or I'll start using the National Enquirer on you.

[MSL209]

"British law states that self defence is not a valid reason to apply for a gun license" I'll just leave that sentence alone, so people can see the lunacy.

And the point of the Dunblane reference was to point out a mass shooting which happens in public places. Really, your childish comments don't help your credability in the slightest.

I will review the UK HO stats when I have time.

And those BBC articles are from a highly renowned British news agency. The other, I'm honestly not sure.

[billburns2]

Where is the lunacy?

The UK murder rate is one third of the US murder rate.

Doesn't that suggest that we don't need guns for self defence?

Mass shootings in public places:

Please give up this Gunfight at the Corrall mindset. It doesn't hold water.

It may also come as a shock to you to find out that not everything you read in a newspaper is true. Look up the facts yourself. Don't allow yourself to be fooled by politicians, journalists and pressure groups.

[billburns2]

Now you're doing the old NRA thing of lumping burglaries and In Cold Blood style home invasions together.

Also are you getting these other figures from the DoJ website?

I can't find half of these stats and the ones I do find don't tally your claims:

eg:

70 of rapes are committed by people know to the victim, so can't see how 60% can be during home invasions.

[MSL209]

It is common sense that ANY home invasion can and often does lead to violence. I don't need a statistic to prove that.

A home invasion is not just breaking and entering. It also applies to an individual or individuals invited into a home, asked to leave and the individual refuses to leave. Do you really think that just because a prep knows the victim that they don't break and enter? You really are out of touch with reality.

[billburns2]

LOL and you really are grasping at straws now.

The question is not IF it's possible or IF it ever happens (meteorites and killer bees)

The question is HOW OFTEN.

Are you defending against something which is likely to happen to you?

Or has the NRA succeeded in making you afraid?

[MSL209]

There were around 415k house fires last year. You imply that death/injury is likely and precautions are appropriate. You maid the claim that home invasion is unlikely and implied that death/injury is unlikey. You even went as far as to say that I am more likely to die from meteor, bees, or lightning. Yet the actual numbers in the US regarding home invasion according to the FBI are 2.2 MILLION in 2008.

[MSL209]

I don't care how many murders took place in Britain by guns or otherwise. YOU ARE A FOOL if you think protection against any home invasion especially when children are present is not a good reason for personal protection. I don't care if the attacker is armed with a knife or a gun.

[billburns2]

Well YOU were the one who started coming up with headlines intimating that Britain had a high crime rate as result of our gun legislation. Maybe you just don't it when facts disprove nespaper headlines or NRA "common sense" (sic)

I've never said you shouldn't protect yourself. I've never said that you shouldn't have a gun if it makes you feel safer.

I'm asking you to question Wayne LaPierre's nightmare vision of a world without guns as the one-sided propaganda it is.

Geddit?

[dizzypilots1]

if firearms only make you feel safer,why allow police to carry.maybe you should checkout the civilian gun self defense stats for yourself.not the ones from handgun control inc.i have a feeling thats where you'll go.

[billburns2]

Most police don't carry guns where I live. Even in the USA there are only between 300-400 justifiable homicides by police every year

Unfortunately there aren't any reliable stats for civilian gun ownership - Lott and Kleck's studies are not endorsed by the FBI

[nobullshitever]

constitutional rights don't depend on statistics or poles or anything else a gunophobe like you might bring up.cower in your corner if you must,but don't try an force others to do the same.anyone who expects someone else to be responsible for their own self protection and is able bodied is beneath contempt,and is a coward to boot

[billburns2]

like I've said - have as many guns as you like. If you feel comforted by them, that's up to you.

Everyone is responsible for their own safety but it's a myth thats guns are the only way to do that - a myth promoted by people like Wayne LaPierre, who peddles lies so that people will live in fear.

[billburns2]

LOL

Don't like the facts?

will you kill me with your guns?

[billburns2]

2.2 million cases of kill-crazed thugs intent on rape, murder and pillage? Every year?

Really?

[MSL209]

As I said it does not matter in the slightest what the intentions of intruders are. Or what actually happened in any of those 2.2 million cases. They were forcible entry into someone's home. I have the right to protect my home and my family.

Hypothetically if the intruder has no intention on doing any harm (which will NEVER be a guarantee) I'm not going to let some POS scumbag take my belongings that I work for.

[MSL209]

We will have to jump back to 2006 with 2,183,746 home invasions, 33% (correction from 60%) are rape, assault 20%, aggrivated assault is 25%, Simple Assault is 18%. This is in home violence. Google "DOJ cv0665.pdf" for reference.

[billburns2]

That's NOT what this table implies.

The data shows that 33% of rape, 20% assault, etc. happened AT HOME

Not that 33% of rapes and 20% of assaults happened during home invasions.

And certainly not that 33% of home invasions result in rape and 20% of home invasions result in assault.

Now look at victim / offender relationship. Husbands beat their wives at home. Boyfriends rape girls at home.

The armed and drooling rapist bursting through your window is really not that common an occurrence.

[billburns2]

What makes me the expert?

My qualifications on the subject are exactly the same as Wayne LaPierre.

[MSL209]

Or he has 40 more years life experience? Or a Masters Degree in Government? He actually cares about the American people.

The only thing I have recently discovered through research is his questionable accusation that Clinton was allowing violence to make a case for gun control. Not overall damning IMO.

[billburns2]

Age does not always bring wisdom and a Masters Degree isn't necessary to find out the simple facts that the NRA are so desperate to hide from you.

[MSL209]

The UN stood by and allowed the slaughter by machetes to occur, and at times handed over Tutsis to the secret police. (Individual Tutsis were identified and marked for murder.) The U.N. disarmed the Tutsi population in advance of the genocide. Spears, knives, and machetes, as well as all guns, were

confiscated.

The UN is worthless.

[MSL209]

What is your point in mentioning Rwanda? It only supports my point. They were disarmed by the UN before the massacre. Again another example of how mass gun controll works in order to successfully kill off a population. Thank you for mentioning Rwanda.

[MSL209]

I am? Again the illusion of freedom. If I'm not mistaken it is YOUR country that is considering banning fire extinguishers. You now have even less freedom to defend yourselves. Random acts of violence happen every day not only in the US, but everywhere. I will not allow myself or my family to be killed by some criminal.

The citizens of the US have the ability to overthrow their government if they want. Israel does not, Britain does not.

[MSL209]

The most effective tool against violence is to meet it with itself.

If you want to live defenseless, so be it. I will not and I will not allow it to happen in my country.

Your government has rendered you defenseless while your criminals rape, pillage and murder, and you seem to be happy about it.

You still fail to provide any argument that sticks. I have yet to see any fact provided by you.

[MSL209]

Matter of FACT. I guarantee you that if the Basij thought that the Israeli civilians were armed they wouldn't dare fire into the crowd. They would cause the backlash which would cause their own demise.

In relation to this all of those mentioned in "Innocents Betrayed" would have had a chance at survival. If what you are saying is true, then explain why all of those people were disarmed before being murdered if it wouldn't have mattered anyway?

[billburns2]

No, not matter of FACT, matter of your supposition. Another NRA ploy.

And not all of your "Innocents Betrayed" were unarmed either. Do some fucking research into genocide before you buy into this rubbish. You can start with Rwanda.

[MSL209]

Where is your fact? YOU suppose there would be no difference. I don't get my information from the NRA, so enough with your assumptions that I do.

Either way, prove with fact that is not true.

So, what exactly are you proposing? Disarm the law abiding civilians of the world? Render them the sheep, so the wolves can have their way with them?

Why is it wrong for me to keep firearms for the protection of my family from those who with to do harm?

[MSL209]

Oh, and you still didn't answer the question. WHY WERE THEY DISARMED BEFORE THEY WERE MURDERED?

[billburns2]

It's your claim my friend, so the onus is on YOU to prove it. Look up the definition of "fact" in a dictionary. It's not defined as "stuff you wish were true because it fits with a theory you like"

[MSL209]

Because a genocidal government prefers an unarmed populace that has no way of defending itself. Again, I ask why disarm if it does not matter?

Don't come here and dance around my questions because you know the answers are ones you cannot answer without exposing the flaw of your agruments.

I dare you to answer my questions.

[billburns2]

If my goverment has rendered me defenceless then explain why your per-capita rate of murder is so much higher than mine? Rape too for that matter.

[MSL209]

Admit you could do NOTHING if someone invaded your home and had a gun. I could.

US has higher crime?

"Britain, Australia top U.S.

in violent crime" -World Daily News

"Britain: From Bad to Worse" -Newsmax

"Britain Crime the Worst in the West" -The Independent UK

Your in denial. It's ok. It happens to the best of us.

[billburns2]

Unfortunately I'm not someone who is taken in by unrepresentative NRA propaganda. Your headlines are 10 years old and the last one seems to have been invented by you anyway.

Look at the ACTUAL homicide figures from 2008 and then come back to me.

Your homicide rate is 3 times higher than my country. Your gun homicide rate is 24 TIMES higher than in my country.

Sp much for guns protecting your family.

Doesn't seem to work very well does it?

[MSL209]

The NRA is actually very active in our legislature.

Invented? The original story by that publication was no longer available.

I do have firearms to protect them. Do you have any to protect yourself?

And the highest murder rates are in parts of our country that have the highest levels of gun control.

Again, what do you propose we do, disarm and allow ourselves to be slaughtered? Why would we stoop down to your level?

[MSL209]

Here are some gun FACTS from the US.

90% of all violent crime in the U.S. does not involve any gun of any type. -BATF

Less than 1% of all guns will ever be used in the commission of any type of crime (much less violent crime).

2/3 of the people that die each year from gunfire are criminals shooting other criminals.  -FBI Uniform Crime Statistics

Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 per day. -Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ.

[billburns2]

Go on then - overthrow Obama (who I'm sure you hate).

You got the guns so DO IT.

Or are you just full of tough talk and excuses?

[MSL209]

No, I don't like him. He has lied about evrything form the begining.

If the Federal govt abolishes Democracy in the US you will see bloodshed. You underestimate the will of American Patriots just as King James and his Redcoats did. You have allredy given your government the power to fully reach into your lives. Banning fire extinguishers and long kitchen knives comes to mind. Whats next? You call that freedom?

I will defend my country, my wife and children to the death. Molon Labe.

[billburns2]

Don't waste my time with King James and his redcoats with fire extinguishers

(and trying to equate the decision of some hick fire department with UK Governent policy is typical NRA propaganda btw)

I want to hear a good reason why you aren't overthrowing a tyrannical government right now - whilst you still have your guns.

[MSL209]

Why haven't we? Democracy still lives here. Our Constitution still lives. You seem to suggest we overthrow our government just because it is the hing to do. It is a last resort when citizens become subjects.

We are the constituents.

[billburns2]

"Ignore the facts" - You are. Every other democracy in the free world operates without the need for civilian gun ownership. Why will the USA spin into chaos if you can't have a Smith & Wesson security blanket?

Israel has extremely liberal gun laws. The fact that their police chose to shoot at them is proof that little bits of paper don't stop bad things happening.

[billburns2]

You're getting very confused here. Emotion getting in the way of facts.

"Germany was a democracy before Hitler". What's you point here? Apart from wanting to use the word Hitler, which is a popular NRA tactic.

"Innocents Betrayed" - again, what's the point? A list of people unjustly killed and the sweeping assumption that having a gun would somehow have stopped that. Grow up sonny.

[MSL209]

The point is if the Jews and anti-Nazis would have had the ability to defend themselves they would have stood a better chance at surviving. A rebellion against tyranny would have ensued. Fact.

How do you not get the point? I already stated my point in that post. They were murdered because of an inability to defend themselves.

[MSL209]

I challenge you to search Youtube for the video series "Innocents Betrayed." If we do not learn from history we are doomed to repeat it.

[MSL209]

He never said we were the only free country. The 2a secures our Liberties. Germany was a democracy before Hitler.

Guns are needed to again secure our freedom from the up rise of a tyrannical government. Don't believe our freedoms are at stake everery day, do a search on HR 1955.

"ignore the facts" Give me a break. You really had to use your imagination on that one. If the people of Israel had a 2A, they wouldn't be getting shot by their poice/Basij while peaceably protesting.

[MSL209]

Paddock... How old are you 12? Lets hang ourselves over a simple mispronunciation. The point of the sentence itself was to point out that you will loose things sacred to you if you don't secure them because there will always be evil in the world that will want to take them away. It is the same thing as saying that your valued belongings/family are not safe if you don't lock/secure your home. Grow up.

[billburns2]

Why does the NRA feel the need to use lies, half-truths and bogus statistics to try and further its cause?

[MSL209]

Again what lies, half truths and bogus statistics? What you describe sounds more like the garbage coming from anti gunners.

[billburns2]

"Without the 2nd Amendment, Liberty is just an illusion" - so the USA is the only free country in the world?

"Every freedom you have is only as real as the 2nd Amendment" - really? So guns are needed to enforce every aspect of American life?

"you know this in your heart" - AKA ignore the facts and stick with ypour gut feelings.

"Divine right" Clever sentence construction to suggest that God intended us all to own guns

And my money is pretty safe without a paddock thanks. LMFAO

[MSL209]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends,

(Continued)

[MSL209]

it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

[MSL209]

I find it funny that those who make these bogus claims have no way to back them up with fact. Just hollow accusations manufactured by the minds of those who simply disagree.

[MSL209]

You have it backwards. We constantly have to defend our all of our freedoms. It is a matter of protecting our freedom. Bills like H.R. 1955:

110th Congress essentially throw the 1st amendment out the window. Many people had no idea this bill was introduced. Thank God it did not pass.

The US Supreme court ruled that the death penalty was constitutional. I will not get into abortion. I would like the comments to stay on topic here. If you want to get into the abortion thing PM me.

[Camo1000]

The guys a fool - freedom can be maintained through police, we don't need to be vigilantes enforcing freedom.

Barely anyone has a gun in Britain and we have more freedoms than you guys.

Funny thing is...this guy would all be for the death penalty (which was ruled against the constitution, ableit then over turned) and abortion. Basic freedoms to life and your body.

[MSL209]

"This guy is a complete nutjob that thought the government was allowing violence so that they could make the case for gun control."

Care to elaborate on this?

"Even Charlton Heston denounced him."

Or this?

"A coward with a gun is not something to be proud."

By this do you mean the husband protecting his wife and children in the dark of night from an intruder?

"The NRA makes millions off of ignorant, backwoods tools..."

The government has been treading on the 2A for years.

[MSL209]

I didn't figure you had any grounds to prove your claims.

[storytellersunion]

This guy is a complete nutjob that thought the government was allowing violence so that they could make the case for gun control. Even Charlton Heston denounced him. A coward with a gun is not something to be proud. The NRA makes millions off of ignorant, backwoods tools that have believed the government is out to get them for decades but uh... still haven't gotten around to it.