Did Jesus Rise from the Dead? - Debate - Mike Licona vs Richard Carrier

[sergioavila2720]

Christians always base their believes on what people say happened they never have hard evidence

[dasunmanify]

It is supposed men ought to do even greater things than he "Jesus". But, I haven't known one man to call a dead man from his death then, he is resurrected to life and live. If anyone know or heard of such event, please let me know.

[adstanra]

interesting Mikes comments on Bayes theorem.If you watch WLC vs Erhman debate, WLC uses Bayes theorum to argue for the resurrection and Erhman laughs at the use of Mathematics to argue history. Guess it is ok if it suits you.

[paularenas26]

Let’s put an end to all religion.

Cut and paste URL into browser address bar:

endallreligions.blogspot.com

[paularenas26]

You could repent. Moreover, you could ask God for eternal forgiveness through applying the death and resurrection of Jesus to your life of sin within the quietness of your bedroom tonight. As an unrepentant sinner myself, I made this decision around 15 years ago. This is the most important decision that you could ever make. - Romans 10:9-10

[TheElijah3142]

REPENT ALL! YOU WHO DNT BELIEVE And ACCEPT THAT JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD B4 YOU DIE...

[redchango]

@TheElijah3142 - lol, you're funny.

[sfyr]

@TheElijah3142

Who knows.. Maybe Islam is right..

[Schnigtheatheist]

I think the most important thing we should take away from this video is the tremendous potential of the reality show "You've been Scrooged!" haha.

[oldno74]

I can't believe I was a christian.....But I do have an excuse, my mother taught me that Jesus and God were real, so I believed my parent and many other christians. Once I started using my rational brain instead of faith, it all fell apart. Once Mike starts using the rational side of his brain, it will fall apart for him as well.

[wubbadubdub]

a natural doubter would believe "Bill" Craig if he called up to talk about seeing aliens? this guy is weak, immature. i know this girl, she's smart, therefore it couldn't have been a hallucination or dream. seriously? you're going to bring that garbage to an audience?

[wubbadubdub]

licona wants to debate ghost stories? fucking idiot. grow up. people hallucinate and have dreams. idiot.

[adstanra]

Licona is a natural doubter and he believes in the story about the vision of the dead persons face....and the speaking turkish tongues?.

[adstanra]

@adstanra and according to Licona he thinks resurrections might be occurring right now in the Congo. The fact is that reasonable people can be duped....

[dragonlee1bfed]

Carrier's arguments are basic and without any real argumentative impact. Regardless of "20 miles an hour" speaking ability, he seriously sways off point, makes a none point using further none points. Comparing Christ's rising to other so called "risings" is a common weak point Carrier and others tend to do. I have observed "when I can't really argue the point, let me just say others were raised too"... Multiple self explanations mean nothing...EXPLAIN WRITTEN SCRIPTURE! That's a Debate

[adstanra]

@dragonlee1bfed well, it was Licona who also started talking about resurrections occurring today in the Congo....along with the face of Satan appearing in a dream.

[berrywoke]

@FolloweroftheLogos Are you still here boy? The only thing you know about being childish is your rude and disgusting behavior of praying for people who dont appreciate it but that is typical of loosers from your religion. The arrogant christ who thinks I would want to have a conversation with him thats laughable at the best. Now go spread your crap on someone elses door step maybe you will even find someone who belives your wisdom of poop and book of fairy tales. Hope you burn in hell boy.

[berrywoke]

Licona dosent have a leg to stand on. anytime you base a argument on the bible or belief you have not only lost but are as well a looser. Belivers are confused and I think mostly bad people who have made so many mistakes in their life that they need to be forgiven, and since no rational human being would forgive them they seek somethig or someone who isint even real to do just that. Now just how sick is that? I have to wonder just what kind of sicko weird shit people like Followerofthelogos did?

[berrywoke]

@FolloweroftheLogos LOL report me big boy and why you are at it Pray for yourself you need the guidence.Christ didnt die for me looser you must have done some pretty bad shit in your life to want to belive that. Once again you display only your stupidity when you say things like that. Besides that you dont know how porley misinformed you sound when you say I will report you and your comment will be removed I thought big boys dont get insulted you are a biggot and I am sorry for your parents.

[berrywoke]

@FolloweroftheLogos Boy your reading comprehension is so bad I guess that explains your belif in god. I have read your bible throughly 2 times and am reviewing it constantly every time someone makes a claim or a quote out of context. God didnt call you he commanded you and all his sheepels. What is a neo athiest website? I never visited one must be something you christians made up again. Athiest is not a religion but of corse you are as confused about that as you are confused about god.

[berrywoke]

@FolloweroftheLogos How can you say you dont want to insult me but at the same time threaten to pray for me? You and your types are such loosers just brainless sheep. It is more than just insulting it is also disgusting why dont you just keep that bullshit in your church or home? You cant take me serious? comeing from a beliver in fairy tale invisible people that is bizzar! All Your God is good for is killing rape and murder or havent you even read your own fairy tale yet? I have.

[berrywoke]

@berrywoke Is there a law against useing a doctor title when you really don't have one? well there should be!

Im still laughing PHD in the New Testement LOLOLOLOLOL...... Hey Followerofthelogos do you ask about me being a doctor because you need one? I am sure even you can read a phone book, it has real information in it and you dont even need a PHD to understand that.

[berrywoke]

Non evidence assumptions? just like the Christian faith! This guy dosent even know shit about historians let alone the truth behind the bible myths.

[berrywoke]

How empty does a brain have to be to debate a myth??? LOL a PHD in the New Testament what a joke!

[nyscholartist]

Group hallucinations are rare? Ever seen Muslims on Hajj or Jews at the Wailing Wall? Group hallucinations are strikingly common. Licona doesn't know what he's talking about.

[TheRealBladeRunner]

Thanks for posting this. 

[mjt532]

I've watched a lot of resurrection debates. Carrier is the best I've seen. Would love to see Carrier v Habermas.

[mjt532]

41:45 is the key to the resurrection debate. There are many, many combinations of possibilities on what actually happened. If a Chrisitan shows that a particular hypothesis is improbable, so what? There are still numerous possibilities. Even if the resurrection is the best hypothesis...the Yankees are historically the best MLB team, but you're usually better off betting with 'the field'--which is every other hypothesis.

[Jesrael1986M]

@mjt532 Yes there are lot of possibilities. But I would rather go with the evidence - what the 1st century sources actually say.

[sirdelrio]

Licona doesnt even try to pose as a rationalist believer. He's a plain advocate of superstition, ignorance and BS, just to make room for the supernatural.

[sirdelrio]

"God raised Jesus..." I thought jesus was god. I always expect from these apologist something truthfull and all i ever get are the same circular shit.

[NaturalMiracleMan]

Licona keeps avoiding answering Carrier's counter-points! AGH!

[Thewoxter]

Carrier obliterated Licona.

[M3PanoS]

I used to dislike this Carrier guy and used to think that Licona was a weak apologist, but I actually enjoyed both of them here.

[TheBiddleMan]

In short, No, because people don't rise from the dead. There are plenty of eyewitness accounts of people rising from the dead in modern day india, pakistan etc. But we don't take them seriously. Why is the Bibles claim any different?

[5cutch]

Carrier shouldn't have let Licona away with describing the early growth of the Christian church as explosive. Its growth rate was lower than Mormonism, atheism, or the scientific method.

[twiedenfeld]

I would like to meet Michael Licona. I have some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell him.

[pascalzifffhume]

@twiedenfeld

hahaha

[wfenio]

Carrier's arguments always seem stronger to me.. I would much prefer he debated Craig in this format, with more focus on discussion and cross-examination....rather than the standard format of 'beat the clock' rebuttals. Or the best would be a written debate.. because Craig is expert in the art of debate within the standard format.. however a true weighing of their two points of view would be more fruitfully done without time limits, etc.

[Roaddogg666]

@wfenio: Craig only does 'beat the clock' debates. He's a very good debater. That's it. His arguments aren't very convincing, just his method of presenting them. I'd like to see him debate someone in a conversational format

[rfvidz]

@Roaddogg666 Craig has debated Atkins in a conversational format. He has debated Hitchens in a conversational format. He has debated Shook in a conversational format. What more do you people want? I don't find your comment very convincing because it's brainless.

[BozoTheBear]

@Roaddogg666 i totally agree. actually, with all the controversy surrounding a dawkins craig debate, i'd love to see dawkins "interview" craig, in much the same way he interviewed mcgrath. dawkins has a knack of waaaaay overstating his own case, but is quite good at getting to the heart of the theists' fallacies.

[BozoTheBear]

something many non-Xian debators fail to verbalise properly is the idea that to discredit the resurrection hypothesis, one does not need to create a more plausible alternative, but just show that it is more likely that *something from the set* of all possible alternatives is more likely. eg what is the liklihood that if i mess up a rubiks cube under the table it ends up solved? very low. is there another position that is more likely? no, they're the same - but *something else* is more likely.

[ideologger]

@Roaddogg666 WLC will only participate in debates which adhere to his specific requirements. He's done some in a conversational format, but not with a worthy opponent.

[metaltermite]

@Roaddogg666 Craig has debated Shelley Kagan in a conversational format, and Kagan utterly wiped the floor with him. YouTube it.

[pellevinken]

@Roaddogg666 Try to find Shelly Kagan v WLC. They discuss the topic of God and morality in quite a conversational format, after the "introductions".

[rfvidz]

@wfenio Craig has debated Atkins in a conversational format. He has debated Hitchens in a conversational format. He has debated Shook in a conversational format. What more do you people want?

[wfenio]

@rfvidz sorry.. don't see the relevance to my comment.

[edricnavigator]

@rfvidz In the Hitchens debate I believe 10 minutes of the 2 hours where discussion, the rest was beat the clock. The closest craig came to conversation was the Kagan debate.

[Pilgrim1411]

@wfenio, Carrier's hypothesis fails to account for the empty tomb of Christ. Today most scholars believe Jesus tomb was found empty. The swoon hypothesis and the "disciples stole the body" hypothesis have been universally abandoned by contemporary scholars.

[99percentatheist]

Anyone else see a resemblance  between Richard Carrier and Dinesh D'Souza?

[rfvidz]

@99percentatheist Carrier and D'Souza? No, I don't see a resemblance. However, I think that Carrier looks like an evil-looking Bill Gates.

[KBrimstone]

Richard was so much more gentlemanly then the WLC debate. No? It also seems like some of his views may have changed.

[rfvidz]

@KBrimstone I never heard Richard Carrier win a debate. He always gets creamed. I hope to God he has changed his views. They are quite bizarre.

[KBrimstone]

@rfvidz Yeah but he seems docile... tame even. I wonder what happened since the Dr. Craig debate.

[Xfodder4uX]

@rfvidz What views of his are bizarre? At most you could say he is too skeptical. I don't think I've ever seen him "creamed". Licona was destroyed in this debate. It wasn't just debating bravado on the part of Carrier when he said Licona didn't respond to his key points. He really didn't.

[soccerdanny4]

@Xfodder4uX

What's bizzare of his views? Carrier thinks that Jesus never existed. For most historians, that is a bizzare view. Includes atheists.

[Xfodder4uX]

@soccerdanny4 You're saying his view that jesus never existed is bizzare and thats fine, but you must then admit that the view that jesus was/is the son of god is at least a million times more bizzare. I mean, that's an absolutely ridiculous claim with no evidence to back it up.

[Xfodder4uX]

@soccerdanny4 And I think most atheists believe the existence of jesus is pretty much a toss up, he may or may not have existed or maybe he is just a compilation of all sorts of myths from the time. Its not surprising some atheists may lean towards him not existing with the very minimal extra-biblical evidence we have of him.

[CapsHockey100]

@Xfodder4uX I think a correction is in order. I don't think most atheists believe Jesus' existence is a myth, at least not in the scholarly world. Jesus "mythers" are essentially looked very down upon in the academic community. For example, one myther attempted to pay for an article to be published in a very liberal journal and it was rejected. Licona wrote an piece referring to it on his website, a "Reply to Doherty." Its very short and to the point regarding mythers.

[CapsHockey100]

@Xfodder4uX Further, I would just add that Jesus is one of the best attested figures in ancient history. Compare the number of written sources on Jesus prior to 150AD and compare them to the number of sources that mention the Emperor Tiberius in the same time period. If Jesus is as well attested, or better, as an emperor, that would certainly be very impressive.

[Xfodder4uX]

@CapsHockey100 I dont care if tiberius was real or not, but it makes a big difference if jesus existed and really was the son of god. And i looked up all the extra biblical evidence for jesus and not one was within 30 years of his death. 30 years of WORD OF MOUTH. No internet or phones, not even written record for 30 YEARS. These primitive, racists, slave-owning, superstitious people just passed on a story and you expect me to believe it? And most of these records are much younger

[CapsHockey100]

@Xfodder4uX Right, I agree. It MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE if Jesus was the Son of God. A difference that could change your life. Not sure why you are calling these people, "primitive, racists, slave-owning, superstitious people" that just passed on a story, I am simply suggesting by normal historical practices, how does one evaluate ancient writings. Using normal historical techniques we use for Roman history, we will discover how the NT can change your life, and is also VERY young.

[CapsHockey100]

@Xfodder4uX Further, if these were a "primitive, racists, slave-owning, superstitious people," they certainly were transformed and describe someone who is known and respected as one of the worlds greatest moral teachers. Ghandi once commented something like, "I like your Jesus, I don't like your Christians." Read the Sermon on the Mount in Mt. or take a night and read John and it will be a blessing to your life.

[Xfodder4uX]

@CapsHockey100 You believe jesus existed for no reason other than some over exaggerated hand-me-down stories by some primitive people. I think it is perfectly reasonable to not be certain whether or not a biblical jesus existed. And since no one who was alive at the same time as jesus ever wrote anything about him and there are no roman records of him, i doubt he existed.

Tell me one person who wrote about jesus during his lifetime, not 30 to 200+ years later. Prove me wrong.

[CapsHockey100]

@Xfodder4uX Lol, I believe based on the historical evidence. Let me ask you a question, why do you have a such a HIGHER standard regarding evidences for Jesus than you do for other events and people at his time. It just seems to me that you are flat out biased against Christianity. That isn't based on evidence, that is a dogma. Unless you want to use standard historical practices fairly, I don't think any evidence is going to convince you bc you have already stacked the deck.

[CapsHockey100]

@Xfodder4uX Do you have a reason for stacking the deck, or is it that you just flat out don't like Christianity? If the latter, why do you not like Christianity, what is wrong with the Sermon on the Mount (Mt. 5-7) and regarding others as more important than yourself (Phil. 2:3)?

[Xfodder4uX]

@CapsHockey100 I think it's ridiculous you think I'm being biased just because I don't believe the son of god lived in the middle east 2000 years ago. I don't care if other people existed. I don't care if we have evidence for socrates or tiberius or nero or whoever. There is no double standard here. If I really cared about whether or not they existed I would put up a fight. Jesus, however, supposedly had some important things to say so it's important we're objective with him.

[CapsHockey100]

@Xfodder4uX Your confused about what is ridiculous. Were not talking about the claims Jesus made according to the NT, just Jesus' existence. Obviously, if one never existed, then they cannot claim to have been the Son of God. So if you doubt His existence, that is going to be a major issue (one that virtually no scholars hold). That is the standard to which I was referring. Of course if Jesus did exist, and make these claims that is VERY important as we both agree.

[Xfodder4uX]

@CapsHockey100 And what about that evidence? Got any that was written by eye witnesses around the time of his life? Or is it all superstitious BS passed down through word of mouth for a hundred years before being written down as a fairy tail? That's what I thought....

[CapsHockey100]

@Xfodder4uX Well actually, the Gospels contain eyewitness material and were written well within the lifetime of eyewitnesses. In fact, just recently a discovery was made and it looks like a papyrus of Mark was discovered and is dated to the lifetime of eyewitnesses! That is very incredible!!! We also have Paul who is even earlier than the Gospels and knew the other eyewitnesses. Paul was also a former enemy of Christianity, who changed his views dramatically. The NT is very strong.

[CapsHockey100]

@Xfodder4uX Compare the NT to other ancient works and see how they line up. They are very strong, and have been confirmed in every area that they have been checked. They have the strongest textual evidence of any ancient work. They are written very close to the time of the events, within the lifetime of eyewitnesses, and contain eyewitness material. Simply dismissing the NT with a 'Thats what I thought' is historically silly. Im not sure if you know what you are arguing against.

[CapsHockey100]

@Xfodder4uX I say I am not sure you know what you are arguing against bc you are making blanket statements about the NT with no apparent focus. What is your point? You don't like Christianity or you like skepticism or whatever the reason may be, I get that. But that doesn't change the historical evidence for the NT, does it?

[Xfodder4uX]

@CapsHockey100 Alright, I'll narrow it down. I doubt jesus existed because there are no eyewitness accounts of his life or miracles outside of the bible which is biased so it cannot be trusted. And besides being biased it gives several different stories of his life which conflict with each other (I'm sure you know the examples I'm referring to) so it is again not trustworthy.

[CapsHockey100]

@Xfodder4uX Thanks for clarifying. So you are saying there are (1) no eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life, (2) the NT accounts are biased, and (3) the stories that we do have contradict? If this is the case, your biased view of Jesus is not one that is appropriately applied to other figures from ancient history. Are you willing to reject all Roman historians who refer to Roman history? Of course not, that makes no sense. (Who knows Rome better than a Roman.).

[CapsHockey100]

@Xfodder4uX So if we wouldn't object to other areas who in ancient history have these same issues, why should we when it comes to Jesus? The only reason I can see is sheer bias and prejudice. Moreover, I wouldn't agree with your assessment of the NT to begin with. 1) The Gospels certainly reflect eyewitness testimony. 2) Everyone has bias so every source contains a bias one way or the other. 3) "Conflicting" accounts do not = false accounts. In fact they show less fabrication.

[CapsHockey100]

@Xfodder4uX So if we wouldn't object to other areas who in ancient history have these same issues, why should we when it comes to Jesus? The only reason I can see is sheer bias and prejudice. Moreover, I wouldn't agree with your assessment of the NT to begin with. 1) The Gospels certainly reflect eyewitness testimony. 2) Everyone has bias so every source contains a bias one way or the other. 3) "Conflicting" accounts do not = false accounts. In fact they show less fabrication.

[Xfodder4uX]

@CapsHockey100 And also, the New Testament is just a hodgepodge of different books that only by sheer luck became canon. There are many other books out there with just as much right to be in the bible as mathew mark luke and john but could not make it because fallible men decided not to put them there. So if you want to use the bible to prove jesus existed, how do you explain not using the book of judas as evidence? Is it because it conflicts with all the other books?

[CapsHockey100]

@Xfodder4uX Well, no, its not a hodgepodge. It was books that were recognized as being the best sources. Hence they were collected in the first place. The other books you refer to come from far later sources and hence were not collected bc the cannon was put together with truth in mind.

[CapsHockey100]

@Xfodder4uX What is the date of Judas compared to, say Luke? Luke is roughly dated around 70 AD and Luke was a traveling companion with Paul and others. Judas on the other hand was written around 300AD and written in Coptic. This is where I really have an issue. Why complain about Judas when it is over 250 years after Jesus' lifetime, yet look down on Luke who was traveling with eyewitnesses and writing MUCH closer to the time of the events, w/in living memory of eyewitnesses?

[CapsHockey100]

@Xfodder4uX I mean if you are really interested in what happened, don't you look for accounts that come as close to the events as possible? That is precisely what we have with the NT. That is exactly why books like Judas were left out. Yet to complain that it is unfair that they are left out and complain about the evidence that is actually better and earlier seems to stem from nothing but, as I said earlier, prejudice. Why have this prejudice and where does it come from?

[Xfodder4uX]

@CapsHockey100 Because that really weakens your argument.

[OccasionallyBearded]

@KBrimstone It seems to me that Carrier actively dislikes Craig, but he seems to actually like Licona.

[macroman52]

@OccasionallyBearded Because Licona is much more likeable than Craig, and more honest IMO.