S.D.A is a cult hand down, i went to that church, i know what they teach, i'm trying to open some of the members eyes but the paster and elders keep fulling their heartsalking with fear, talking about "Gods faithfull commandment keep church will be save" if you're not in one with there teaching they look down on you, they're so proud hearted, trying to plz God with there works, jesus is the sabbath my friend, don't make them fool you.
The Seventh-day Adventists believe that Ellen G. White is a prophet though she did not claim she is. This is a gift from the Holy Spirit & a fulfilled promise of God.
Remain in your sin? What is sin? 1 Jn 3:4 sin is breaking the 10 commandments. EGW upholds this my friend so you used this out of context too. Friend do you uphold all 10 of God's commandments by faith in Christ only giving you power to keep them, including the Sabbath (7th not 1st)?
Now back to the issue on the the women being silent! If I say children should be quiet in because an adult is speak and another I say children should be quiet because i'm on the phone, that called context
That verse is highly out of context. That was talking in regards to the issue of pagan worship. They were speaking in false tongues of babbling rather than the correct way. Also women were worshiped as a deity, they were a very sexual people. So in order for the correct image to be shown, they had to put down certain requirements which would be a witness to the rest of those in Corinth. Check the context because in Acts Phillips daughters prophesied and in Judges Deborah was a prophet.
Like I said to you, the only way to prove someone false is based on what is taught. Don't copy the pharisees and attack the messenger rather than the message, because if you are aiming at EGW, you are wasting your time because it is not about her, it is about the teachings. God can use anyone and you need to look at the contexts on everything you read. So now if you have anything to say regarding the teaching. So let me know from the Bible where we err,
The only way a church is founded on Jesus is if they speak the truth Jesus taught. If you can disprove what we believe from the Bible then fair enough. But if not, you should be careful when it comes to mocking the prophet of the Lord
@Jondadon2006 Well Des Ford really told the truth about the sanctuary. I had always thought it was very odd that EVERY Christian denomination could never find that doctrine in Scripture and indeed it is because it isn't there. One must use Ellen White's writings to find it and THAT MY FRIEND IS NOT BIBLE ALONE BUT BIBLE PLUS ELLEN WHITE!!. Dr. Raymond Crottell also admitted that he couldn't find the 1844/IJ without Ellen White. SDA is NOT really a Bible ALONE chruch.
@jtaffiliate The 1844/Investigative Judgment doctrine is IN the book of Hebrews? Where? I don't know of anyone who finds that doctrine in the book of Hebrews! Indeed Dr. Ford's most powerful argument is that Hebrews refutes the 1844 doctrine in chapters 8 & 9.
@boblackey1 The sanctuary is in Hebrews. The investigative judgement is a culmination of prophecy and an understanding of the sanctuary process. Its ironic how you criticize us for using Ellen White but then all you can do is defer to Dr. Ford for your inspiration. Ellen White did nothing but lift up scripture.
@jtaffiliate I don't criticize anyone for using Ellen White or J. Vernon McGee or Martin Luther or John Wesley as a commentary on scripture. My point is that Ellen White must be wrong about the 1844/investigative judgment doctrine. No other denomination or NT scholar has found the doctrine & there are Adventists who decent from it with Dr. Ford probably the most famous.& my view is that to many Adventists Ellen White's writings are inspired JUST LIKE THE SCRIPTURE.
@boblackey1 The criteria for biblical truth is not how many denominations use it. In fact, if you study the bible, Gods truth always started from a movement of just a few. When it comes to prophetic interpretation, are you a futurist or a preterit?
@jtaffiliate I'm post trib. Also I don't accept any dates including 1844 for the second coming which could be 1,000 years from now. Nobody knows and ALL predictions have been wrong and all will. William Miller was wrong, Rev. Camping was wrong just recently. Ellen White clearly is wrong about 1844. There is nothing in the Bible which clearly teaches that Jesus remained outside the most holy place until Oct 1844. Also how can EGW be the last days prophet when she died in 1915?
@boblackey1 her message is for the last days, not her physical presence. As someone who believes in post tribulation, what is the overview of how you interpret the 7 churches in Revelation 2 and 3? My understanding is that both futurist and historicist agree that the 7 churches represent the 7 christian churches through out the ages starting from the time of the Apostles. Would your interpretation also agree?
@jtaffiliate No I don't agree with the 7 churches interpretation. There is only ONE church today and that is made up by those who are saved by faith in Christ and the denomination has nothing to do with the true church. The SDA's claim to be the "true" church, God's church for today. That I can't accept anymore than I can accept the Catholic church being the true church.
@boblackey1 So you do not agree with Scoffield or Hal Lindseys interpretation of Revelation 2 and 3? What are your thoughts then on Revelation 2 and 3? Is it a private interpretation or do you have a link to share? All the reformers and early protestant commentaries subscribed to the historicist interpretation.
@jtaffiliate Scoffield was a great scholar and fine Christian and his thought should be given careful attention by anyone who wants to live the Christian life. But personally I don't agree with all that he holds. I have several relatives who are in their 90 & been Christians for 75 years who hold that the Scoffield reference Bible is the most accurate and solid understanding of the scripture on earth. Almost like scripture to them. I'm rather liberal with my understanding.
@jtaffiliate As to Hal Lindsey, he strikes me in a similar way as Ellen White's 1844/Investigative Judgment doctrine. I first read Lindsey's book in the 1960's, over 50 years ago, and we were at the very end of time back then. Mrs. White is quoted as saying the IJ is correct & it will be short. I think she is wrong on both counts but clearly even to an honest SDA, she has to be wrong on the second point. 166 years isn't short in human terms. Everybody who heard that from her is dead
@boblackey1 Here is my point, most reputable scholars agree that revelation 2 and 3 do inf act represent the christian dispensation through out the ages. With this interpretation it is agreed that the 7th church, the church of Laodicia, is the last day church. Even if you do not agree, there are those outside of adventism that do, including Scofield. So then, if we are in the last days, then based on Scoffield, we have to conclude that we are living in the time of the 7th church.
@jtaffiliate let us entertain this possibility of the 7th church being the last church prior to Christ coming for a second. If you could, look up what Laodicea means and then read the description of who the church in Revelation 3:14.
@jtaffiliate By your theory then, we entered the last days when the SDA church was formed. That also means that the SDA church is the true church & all the others are NOT the true church. Well that makes Baptists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Lutherans, Methodists, Wesleyans etc etc mad does it not? My view is NO denomination is the church or the true church. The true church is made up of those who are IN Christ & saved by his grace through faith alone & it includes Catholics!
@boblackey1 The church represents the body of people are of one accord. The message for the last days. When the persecution of the saints begins, there will be no institution, just people who believe with one accord. I believe those people will be the ones who keep the commandments of God, worship the creator (4th commandment), and have the testimony of Jesus. This is the message of the SDA church. This church will warn about the antichrist and beg the saints to come out of her.
@jtaffiliate "This church will warn about the antichrist and beg the saints to come out of her" Out of her means what? The Roman Catholic Church or The Greek Orthodox Church or the Methodist Church or all of the above? The church is those who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior & are born again. The denomination has nothing to do with that. So one must resign their denomination or the Roman Catholic Church or loss their salvation when Jesus comes?
@boblackey1 out of false worship Bob. This whole controversy is about true worship vs false worship. Cain and Abel were both worshiping God, but God only accepted Abel's worship, not Cains. It is not because God was mean, it is because he gave specific commandments as to how he was to be worshiped. Cain broke Gods commandment and became envious of Abel who obeyed. In the end Cain slew Abel. This is a sneak preview as to what will happen at the close of time.
@jtaffiliate I'm post trib. Also I don't accept any dates including 1844 for the second coming which could be 1,000 years from now. Nobody knows and ALL predictions have been wrong and all will. William Miller was wrong, Rev. Camping was wrong just recently. Ellen White clearly is wrong about 1844. There is nothing in the Bible which clearly teaches that Jesus remained outside the most holy place until Oct 1844. Also how can EGW be the last days prophet when she died in 1915?
@boblackey1 No, there is the holy place and the most holy place. The belief is that Jesus, our high priest, minsters in the holy place and in 1844 moved to the most holy place.
@jtaffiliate Well clearly there is NOTHING in Hebrews 8 or 9 or anywhere in the New Testament which teaches such a doctrine. Jesus did not move in 1844 and that is the rub Dr. Ford has with Ellen White. That the Bible nowhere teaches that Christ moved in 1844 but was already in the Most Holy. Actually Dr. Ford, whom I met and heard in the 1980's, supports most of EGW's teachings and one of his favorite books outside the Bible is Steps to Christ by her.
@jtaffiliate Where IS heaven? Where is this tabernacle located? My take is one can't take this stuff literally. Hebrews says Jesus ascended into heaven itself and sat down at the right hand of God. Dr. Ford and almost all conservative scholars content that IS the Most Holy Place in type even if there is not a literal tabernacle like the Jews had on earth. If Jesus is God, then did he sit down next to himself? Remember even SDA's hold there is but ONE God expressed in the Trinity.
@boblackey1 Those such as the Jehovah Witnesses and the Worldwide Church of God insist the Trinity is false and not taught in scripture and it's pagan with the view that there are THREE Gods. The father is a God. the son is a God and the Holy Spirit is a God. But the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox & most protestants churches hold that there is but ONE God who, through a mystery, is expressed in three ways. Not three equal gods but ONE God!!
@boblackey1 yes, and that is a biblical doctrine. Of course we know there is a pagan counterfeit. Satan is the author of paganism and used to be a covering cherub, of course he would counterfeit the true trinity w/ his pagan deities.
@jtaffiliate The great commission in Matthew says to baptise in the name of the Father and in the name of the Son and in the name of the Holy Spirit. The Greek Orthodox church which claims to have never been part of the Roman Catholic church and was founded by Paul himself, has a three dip baptism. The protestant denomination "Brethren & church of the brethren do the same plus wash feet during communion. Is the biblical or being too literal with the great commission?
@boblackey1 I have no problem w/ the 3 dip thing. They want to follow Christ as best they can. I would not put too much emphasis on 3 dip vs 1 dip debates. Foot washing is a memorial given to us by Jesus, so if he says it, we should do it.
@jtaffiliate According to the Greek Orthodox Church, the New Testament believers are to obey the commands of Jesus and one of the several commands of Jesus is to baptise IN the name of the Father AND IN the name of the Son AND IN the name of the Holy Spirit. They insist that Scripture teaches a three dip baptism. So as you say, if Jesus says it we should do it. But do it and the other commands of Jesus for what reason? So we can be saved? Are we saved by keeping a command?
@boblackey1 I was baptized in the name of all three and dipped once, I do not understand what your getting at. We are saved by coming to the foot of the cross AND repenting. If we do not do both, we will be loss. Luke 5:32
"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Hebrews 10:26
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins"
@boblackey1 Yes, in order for there to be a most holy place, there has to be a holy place. Just simple logic. The earthly tabernacle was made after the pattern shown according to Exodus and Hebrews. Now the question I propose to you is, why does God the father have to be in the most holy place? In fact, I contend that he was not in the most holy place, but was in the holy place on his throne.
@jtaffiliate Well then where is God the father now? Jesus went into the most holy place in 1844 & God the father is in the holy place on his throne. Where is God the Holy Spirit? We have to be careful or we will have THREE Gods and Christianity is suppose to have ONE God! So God the father sits on his throne in outerspace in the area of Orion, the son is in the most holy place reviewing the life's record of those who claimed Jesus as savior to see if their sin is to be blotted out.
@jtaffiliate It just doesn't work with me. I content that one can't take the imagery in the Bible about the center of heaven literally. Heaven is not in Orion and God the father, son and holy spirit are ONE god and are everywhere. Sitting on the throne, most holy place, Orion, Manhattan Island, Mars & Kenya. Hebrews says Jesus entered heaven itself. Paul ascended to the 7th heaven. Where was that?
@jtaffiliate 2 Con 12 1-4 and now that I think about it, I think Paul said "third" heaven. So where did Paul go? Or was he just having a vision of the future or was he out of his mind or what?
@boblackey1 That is a good question. If I may, I believe the Bible refers to three different locations as heaven. The first heaven is the atmospheric sky where the birds fly. The second heaven is where the stars are located as written by David in Psalms 19:1. The third heaven is the heavens of heavens, this is where gods throne is located. Where do you see the dilemma if you do see one?
@jtaffiliate There are more stars in the universe than grains of sand on all the beaches and deserts on earth. 300 billion galaxies and most galaxies contain 200 to 300 billion stars with our sun being just one of billions of stars in our galaxy, the Milky Way. Also the universe didn't exist until 13.5 billion years ago. So my feeling is heaven is in another dimension.
@boblackey1 There is certainty a spiritual dimension. Ask yourself this important question, why was scripture written?. Please realize the Bible was written for OUR benefit. We always have to ask, what is the practical message that God wants us to know. Why is he revealing this to us and how does that get us closer to Jesus. We can speculate but that would God a disservice. He always wants us to know something important. Believe his word.
@jtaffiliate It just doesn't work with me. I content that one can't take the imagery in the Bible about the center of heaven literally. Heaven is not in Orion and God the father, son and holy spirit are ONE god and are everywhere. Sitting on the throne, most holy place, Orion, Manhattan Island, Mars & Kenya. Hebrews says Jesus entered heaven itself. Paul ascended to the 7th heaven. Where was that?
@jtaffiliate I'm post trib. Also I don't accept any dates including 1844 for the second coming which could be 1,000 years from now. Nobody knows and ALL predictions have been wrong and all will. William Miller was wrong, Rev. Camping was wrong just recently. Ellen White clearly is wrong about 1844. There is nothing in the Bible which clearly teaches that Jesus remained outside the most holy place until Oct 1844. Also how can EGW be the last days prophet when she died in 1915?
@jtaffiliate While attending a Lutheran Church with a friend who was a member there, I noted they have a study Bible with commentary by Martin Luther after most chapters BUT they don't hold Luther's writings as equal to the scripture. I've heard more than one Adventist pastor say "let us see what inspiration says" & I will get quotes from the Bible AND EWG. How can Adventists claim to join other protestants in holding "Bible ALONE" yet use EGW's writings as also inspired?
@boblackey1 Your framing it wrong. You should really ask yourself, does the bible teach their will be prophets during the last days? Are the writings of Ellen White contrary to scripture? These are the questions you should ask. So far the only disagreements are speculative interpretation, but not fact.
@jtaffiliate The writings of EGW are not contrary to Scripture to a conservative Adventist but they are at some points to Dr. Ford & many SDAs who agreed with QOD. Such as the human nature of Christ etc. How does a conservative Adventist get their understanding of what the Bible teaches? From EGW!! So on wonder EGW is not contrary to Scripture. Also who are the last day prophets? Any others beside EGW? Certainly John the Baptist was alive when Jesus appeared the first time.
@boblackey1 I was converted 4 years ago based on scripture only, and had never read an EGW book in my life. Also what you said makes no sense or sounds like a cop out. It does not matter where you get your interpretation from, what matters is if its biblical. There are plenty of interpretations that are contrary to scripture and its easily proven in most cases.
@jtaffiliate Every denomination holds their interpretation of scripture is NOT contrary to scripture. There are some cases where a denomination has changed on some points. May I ask you if the Spirit of Prophecy books are equal to and inspired JUST LIKE THE SCRIPTURE? Also EGW's main point to me is that those who are not keeping the 7th day Sabbath and the 10 commandments pefectly will be lost.
@boblackey1 actually, no that is not EGW main point. If you know the truth and you resist it, you do so at risk of your salvation. But during the last days prior to Jesus coming, Sabbath keeping vs Sunday will be the primary issue.
@jtaffiliate There is NOTHING in the New Testament that teaches Sabbath vs Sunday keeping will be the primary issue just prior to Jesus' coming. The gospels do not teach it, Paul doesn't, Peter, James, Revelations, the church fathers or any denomination other than SDA and EGW! Personally I keep neither Saturday or Sunday. Dr. Stanley (Baptist) preached that if one wants to apply the 10 commandments to Christian living, only nine are for the Christian. The 4th is not repeated in NT.
@boblackey1 again, this is where it helps to understand biblical prophecy. Unless you have a good foundation, you will be in the dark about issues like the one I just told you about.
@boblackey1 no offense brother, but you listen to a lot of false teachers, but do not study it for yourself. What heresy is it that Christians would go from selecting and choosing the commandments of God. Who gave you or any earthly preacher the authority to do that?
@boblackey1 the truth is there are parallels to the Christian world today and to Israel back in the time of Jesus. Israel new that the Christ was to come during there day, but He did not come as they expected so they did not recognize him. In the same way, many Christians know we are living in the last days but they know not who the antichrist is. As a result they will exalt the false Christ in exchange for the true God. Rev 14:9
@jtaffiliate You taking about the TV preacher Charles Stanley who is pastor of First Baptist in Atlanta. He says only 9 commandments are for the Christian. The fourth is not and is NOT repeated in the NT. But John uses the greek word "nomas" which means "teachings & commands". I think John is talking about the commands of Jesus and NOT the 10 commandments. And you know that in the NT the apostle John actually lists God's commandments. Believe in the Lord Jesus & love one another.
@jtaffiliate So if we then go to Revelations and read John's words there and he says the saints of God are those who have the faith of Jesus and keep the commandments of God, is John taking about the 10 commandments in the OT or the two he lists in his epistles while driving home the importance of God's commandments, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ & Love one another? How could John write such as thing?
@boblackey1 He says all the laws hang on those two commandments, which are simply quotes for Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18. Do you believe it when John 1:3 says that through Jesus all things were created and without Him nothing was made that was made? Who do you think wrote the 10 commandments? If you love me keep My commandments. John 14:15. Notice the wording in the commandments in Exodus 20:6 but showing mercy unto those that love Me and keep My commandments.
@jtaffiliate BTW I forgot to give you the chapter and verse. 1 John 3 22-24. John writes much about keeping God's commandments in this epistle. But in the third chapter at verse 22, John actually tells us what he means by commandments. "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and love one another". How could John write such a thing? It says NOTHING about the Sabbath or adultery or stealing etc. And this is the same John conservative Christians believe wrote Revelations.
@jtaffiliate Apparently if one wants to hold that John wrote Revelations and the same John wrote the three epistles, this John who is said to have instructed Polycarp before his death and Polycarp wrote nothing about keeping the 7th day that I know, the commandments mentioned in Revelations are but two. Believe in God and accept Jesus Christ as savior. So I ask as to Revelation.."what commandments?" As to truth, are you certain it's in the NT or is it EGW's understanding of the NT?
@boblackey1 See answer above. Also look at the angels message in Revelation 14:6. You realize the only commandment that acknowledges the lord as the creator is the one you are abolishing? A memorial to creation in which God ceased from his works? Rev 14:7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
@jtaffiliate Well what in the world does 1 John 3 22-24 mean? The Apostle John wrote about commandments often in Revelations and his epistles. "those who keep the commandments of God", "if you say you are in Christ Jesus & keep not his commandments, you are a liar" AND when he finally tells us what God's commandments are is wrote "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and love one another". How could he write such a thing. That is heretical is it not?
@boblackey1 Jesus said, I am in the father and the father is in me. Jesus is the same as God, not contrary to him. God the father does not desire one thing and his son another. God gave his only Son to save us from sin, not in sin. Sin is the transgression fo Gods law. We are to repent from sinning when we accept Jesus. It is really not as complicated as you make it sound. Jesus commandments is also the fathers commandments.
@boblackey1: By loving Jesus, you keep the first four commandments in Exodus 20, by loving your neighbor, you keep the second six. BTW, you do see the problem with not believing Jesus is God, since you separate them, you are confusing all types of doctrine in scripture. You think the commandments of Jesus is different then the commandments of His Father. Scripture is so plain when you have proper understanding and context.
@jtaffiliate Yes there is much wrong with what you wrote to me. Jesus and God the Father and the Holy Spirit are not three different persons but ONE person or being which is God. Father, Son & Holy Spirit are eternal, not created. We are indeed saved IN sin. You are still a sinner are you not? Or do you claim to be SINLESS, perfect & without spot or blemish. What are the commandments in 1 John 3 22-24? Believing in Jesus Christ & love one another..is that what he means in Revelation
@boblackey1 I am a sinner, but I am not a sinner in that I willfully continue commit the same sins. I repented of my previous sins and through Jesus I will get victory over other sins that come into my life. But we are not saved IN sin my friend. Israel was a slave to Egypt and was rescued from slavery. In the same way, Jesus said we are a slave to sin, John 8:34, and through him we get victory from Sin. He did not die so that we can continue to willfully sin. Think it through.
@jtaffiliate And the first commandment in 1 John 3 22-24 is: "Believe in Jesus Christ". Would that now be the most important commandment from God? Or is it the Sabbath? Or some other commandment.
@boblackey1 I tacked this question many times already. Brother it is time to stop arguing and submit to Jesus. Jesus wants all of you. He does not want hypocritical Christianity. A God who hates sin is not going to rescue people so that they can continue to Sin. Am I more righteous then my creator? As a father I always want my children to exhibit high moral standards in there life. If I a sinful human being can feel that way, how much more the creator for me?
@jtaffiliate Acknowledging the Lord as creator is not what saves a man is it? It is repentance and accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior through faith by his grace alone and not by law keeping or good works according to Paul. Was Paul wrong? And why did Paul not write one word about the virgin birth? Even thought about that? That doctrine must not be that important to Paul.
@boblackey1 Ask yourself this, is James contradicting Paul in James 2:24? Paul says Justified by faith alone and James says justify by faith and works. To you this would seem like a contradiction, to me they work together perfectly. Remember Jesus words, not everyone that says to Me Lord Lord will make it to the kingdom, but he that does the WILL of my FATHER which is in heaven.
@jtaffiliate BTW that verse is Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
@jtaffiliate Martin Luther thought James was contradicting Paul and in the Lutheran Bible, James is the last book. Luther called it "an epistle of straw" and seriously doubted it should have been included in the canon of Scripture. And you know the canon of the New Testament wasn't set in stone until centuries after Paul lived & some books & gospels made it and others didn't. The Catholic church claims to have decided what was to be in the New Testament.
@boblackey1 wow brother. You are really going down a slippery slope now. Now you want to pick and choose which books go into the canon? Where does it stop? How about trusting what God says first? Luther had limited resources. The scholars of King James (after Luther) had the opportunity to look critically at the canon and decide which books belong. Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
@jtaffiliate The canon of Scripture was closed long before the King James scholars in the 14th century. The Roman Catholic church chose the books and closed the canon. So if the SDAs want to add Great Controversy and the Mormons want to add Pearl of Great Price and the Christian Scientists want to add the works of Mary Baker Eddy, it is TOO late. Scripture is closed. So James made it before Luther's time. Now modern scholars claim 1 & 2 Tim & Titus are second century forgeries & not inspired!!
@boblackey1 That is a myth. The Christians in 2 and 3rd century already had the scripture of truth in possession. Pagans simply incorporated something already in existence. Then the Catholics added some not-credible books into their bible. BTW, you are not to look to modern scholars for the final authority. Brother your whole faith is going down into secular deception. How would uninspired scholars know what is inspired? Be careful. What are you afraid of my accepting truth?
@jtaffiliate Have you seen the new book from Bart Ehrman, PhD who is the James A Gray professor of New Testament and Christian origins at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill? It is called "Forged" and according to Dr. Ehrman & 99 percent of modern scholars, 1 and 2 Timothy & Titus was NOT written by Paul but are second century forgeries. What scholarship would you offer to counter Dr. Ehrman's claimed careful analysis of Paul's letters?
@boblackey Therefore, let us look critically at what these scholars are telling us. Why do they believe that these books are forgeries of the second century?
@jtaffiliate Bart Ehrman, PhD was a Baptist scholar who claims that through he work he came to the conclusion that the Bible can not be inspired or the word of God. After careful research of 1,000 of ancient manuscripts Ehrman came to this conclusion. I hope he is wrong but it is troubling to me. His latest book "Forged" shows how careful analysis of Paul's letters proves that 1 and 2 Timothy & Titus were NOT written by Paul and are most likely 2nd century forgeries.
@boblackey1 I am sorry you rest your salvation on the statement of an agnostic believer. I am in the process of reading his book and can already see where he errs. You need to understand that his "criteria"for forgery is what brings him to his conclusion. But its still a hypothesis not a statement of fact. ...
@boblackey1 ... For example in chapter 1 he makes the point that most scholars feel that revelation cannot be the writing of John the beloved because of the language. Hello, the book of revelation was written years, possibly decades later then the book of John for one. I know my writing is much different now then 10 years ago. Also the entire book is symbolic imagery. Be careful with who you trust. This is just a small snippet of why he is in error.
@boblackey1 Did you read his testimony on how he embarked on his journey to agnosticism? (Actually he is probably more atheist since he does not believe there is a God.) His argument was that he could not reconcile what he was as contradictions in the scripture. This is the #1 reason why Christians, especially those raised int he faith leave. I reconciled all contradictions. I do not see any. This is why Jesus says build your house on the rock not on the sand.
@jtaffiliate I have heard a former SDA scholar, Ronald Numbers, speak. He is now an agnostic and NOT a Christian due to his critical scholarship on the Bible and Ellen White. He studied his way out of the SDA church & Christianity in general. Another X SDAscholar who is now an agnostic/atheist is Robert Brimsmead. Dr. Crosson was a Roman Catholic Priest and was kicked out for turning agnostic & writing decent books about the Bible & the gospels not being historically reliable.
@jtaffiliate I have heard a former SDA scholar, Ronald Numbers, speak. He is now an agnostic and NOT a Christian due to his critical scholarship on the Bible and Ellen White. He studied his way out of the SDA church & Christianity in general. Another X SDAscholar who is now an agnostic/atheist is Robert Brimsmead. Dr. Crosson was a Roman Catholic Priest and was kicked out for turning agnostic & writing decent books about the Bible & the gospels not being historically reliable.
@jtaffiliate id you read his testimony on how he embarked on his journey to agnosticism? (Actually he is probably more atheist since he does not believe there is a God.) His argument was that he could not reconcile what he saw as contradictions in scripture. This is the #1 reason why Christians, especially those raised int he faith leave. I reconciled all contradictions. I do not see any. This is why Jesus says build your house on the rock not on the sand.
@jtaffiliate I didn't say I rest my faith on Bart Ehrman, PhD. Also if you check carefully, the MAJORITY of scholars reject Paul as author of 1 and 2 Timothy & Titus. Ehrman goes beyond those three. Now even conservative scholars hold that Paul didn't write Hebrews & that is why almost ALL preachers who have some education always say "the author of Hebrews says" without giving a person's name. A scholar I like, J. Vernon McGee, holds that Paul used scribes which makes it look differ
@boblackey1 Bob, I already told you my position. The scholarly world is a different world then biblical hermeneutics. Hermeneutics validates each and every one of those books. In fact, this is the miracle of scripture for those who has ears to hear. I have such an amazing understanding of scripture that it really matters little what scholars says. While it helps to get incite from them, they are not the final source of authority. Remember, it says that Satan deceives the WORLD.
@jtaffiliate But critical scholars for decades have attacked 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus. Check it out and see that even in the 19th century, this was done by critical scholars. The Roman Catholic Church has a website defending Paul as author of 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus but skeptics such as Ehrman, Mack, Tabor, Edwards, Miller, Price, Crosson (former Catholic) etc etc say the Catholic site is pitiful. Also I know that a few SDA liberal scholars at Andrews U. also agree it's not Paul.
@jtaffiliate This and the FACT as Dr. Ehrman points out that the women caught in adultery story in John's gospel and the last chapter of Mark's gospel are missing from the oldest manuscripts is troubling to me. The skeptical scholars are not making up this stuff to embarrass Christianity. Check any good study Bible at John 8 and you will see an * and at the bottom of the page it reads "the oldest manuscripts do not contain these verses". Why? How did that story get in the Bible?
@boblackey1 I suggest you youtube battle of the bibles. Oldest does not == more accurate. In fact, I subscribe to the latter textus receptus for accuracy over the greek manuscripts.
@jtaffiliate BTW, James A Gray was the former head of R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company in Winston-Salem, N.C. and a millionaire. He was a Methodist and left money in his will to support a professor of New Testament at the University of North Carolina. But today the person who holds that chair and teaching position is Bart Ehrman, PhD who is professor of New Testament and Christian origins but is NOT a believer & an agnostic. Mr. Gray probably didn't expect that to happen.
@boblackey1 And why do you accept what Bart Ehlman says? Just because they are educated? If you judge the information on just the credibility of the scholars, you can and will be deceived as spoken in Matthew 24 Aksi.do you not know that the Jesuit counter reformation is about disseminating false information about the biblical canon in order to achieve religio dominance as the mother church? Therefore, we must judge by the credibility of the message itself.
@jtaffiliate And where in the history of the Christian church would you find evidence that 2nd and 3rd century Christians were not Catholic or Orthodox? There were NO protestants then. And what of Dr. Ehrman's claim that in John's gospel, John 8, the story of the woman caught in adultery is an interpolation and is NOT part of the original gospel of John? Indeed modern study Bible's have an * there & at the bottom of page it reads: oldest manuscripts don't contain these verses.
@boblackey1 Bob, do not get caught on the term. Catholicism is a 3rd century faith. in the early 1st century, Christians were not even identified as Christians. They were just a Jewish sect. It was not until later in the apostles ministry in one particular providence was that name used. Even then it was not quite wide spread and accepted. In second century you certainly will not find the word Catholic in any literature.
@boblackey1 The point is that there is that there was simply Christians,who btw dwelt in the caves of Rome and were persecuted heavily. Its also interesting to note that peter is 1 Peter 5:13 calls Rome Babylon, at a time when the real Babylon lay in ruins.
@jtaffiliate Then how did Peter end up being buried under St. Peter's Church in Rome? And how did the Catholics end up with Paul's tomb? They allowed scientists to bore a hole in it and put a camera inside and saw a few bone fragments and linen fragments with the rest rotted away. But is it really Paul?
@boblackey1@boblackey1 First read Foxes book of Martyrs. It is said that Peter was crucified by the Roman government upside down on a cross. If there is any validity to papal Romes claim, why would it be unreasonable for the church/government to have authority to build their church on that tomb? What does that prove aside from reinforcing prophecy of Babylon who committed adultery with the wine of her fornication.
@jtaffiliate Have you read the church fathers. Have you read Justin Martyr who wrote in the second century? Do you know Polycarp claims to have studied under the apostle John when he was at an advanced age. These people talk about the communion table used like the Catholics use it and meeting on Sunday. Actually Catholic means "universal".
@boblackey1 why are you a big fan of Catholicism? It is well known that early Christians gathered on Saturday and Sunday. However, nothing in the Bible shows that the apostles gathered on Sunday. Also man does not make a day holy, only God does.
@jtaffiliate In the greek, most scholars find the words of John "I was in the spirit on the Lord's day" to mean a day dedicated by the church to Jesus. They hold this was the 1st day because it is the day he rose from the dead. Just 40&50 years later you have people such as Justin Martyr & Pliny the Younger talking about Christians gathering early on the first day of the week. I see nothing to indicate that these early Christians attempted to make Sunday holy. Rome did that later.
@boblackey1 Listen, I am not into speculation. I take a simple approach to scripture. I believe God is powerful enough to guide his sheep until the last days. Simply put, I do not doubt his word. If scripture says that he was in the spirit on the Lords day, I believe it. If Jesus says that he is Lord of the Sabbath, I believe it. If God says the 7th day is the Sabbath of the Lord THY God, I believe it. Its just obvious, no need for doctrinal gymnastics.
@jtaffiliate question for you my friend. We know that the Bible is clear about the time and hour of Christ return is not known (Act1:6-7). How could Ellen W claim that God chose to deliver His people at midnight refered to Christ return (E.G.W, Spiritual Gift, vol.1, pge205)? You could read it at "h t t p://w w w. gilead. net / egw/ books /spiritual gifts /Spiritual_ Gifts._ Volume_ 1/ index. h t m"
Is Ellen above scripture? I can't believe how SDA think she is a prophet
@jtaffiliate I'm not a fan of Catholicism. I often watch their programs on their Eternal Word Network on cable TV out of being curious. Some of their teaching, to me, is very sound and just like a conservative Baptist or Presbyterian such as Dr. Kennedy. But other teaching is a contradiction to standard protestant teaching such as saying the magic words and the wine & bread becomes Christ, praying to Mary to pray to Jesus for us & grace as God's power for works & obedience of merit
@boblackey1 I used to be Catholic. This is why I gave you a video on deception. Deception utilizes truth in order to win trust and then ensnares you with the deceptive motive. Like mormans for example wont tell you they believe in many Gods but purposely present a mainstream Christian front. Similarly, Catholics believe in the co-redemtrics, that Mary is co-redeemer with Christ and exalt Mary. They also pray to mary and her statues. But you will never see that being broadcast.
@boblackey1 question for you my friend. We know that the Bible is clear about the time and hour of Christ return is not known (Act1:6-7). How could Ellen W claim that God chose to deliver His people at midnight refered to Christ return (E.G.W, Spiritual Gift, vol.1, pge205)? You could read it at "h t t p://w w w. gilead. net / egw/ books /spiritual gifts /Spiritual_ Gifts._ Volume_ 1/ index. h t m"
Is Ellen above scripture? I can't believe how SDA think she is a prophet
@jtaffiliate And if you really want to go wild. Read Dr. Burton L. Mack's "Who Wrote the New Testament, the Making of the Christian Myth". Dr. Mack is an atheist but claims to be an expert on the lost "Q" sayings gospel and the origin of Christianity and the New Testament. And to go REALLY wild, visit wwwdotjesusneverexisteddotcom and read Ken Humphrey's site where it is argued that Jesus and Paul never lived as human being and are as mythical as Santa Clause and the tooth fairy.
@jtaffiliate Yes every denomination has "pretending Christians" who are actually church goers ONLY. Even the SDA church has it's share as do the Baptists, Presbyterians etc.The TRUE church is made up of those who are IN CHRIST by faith and practice and are found in ALL denominations. Even St. Ellen admits that in one of her books.
@jtaffiliate Do you support the Roman Catholic Churches new fight against the Obama administration due to the governments requirement that Catholic hospitals and institutions must allow employees to have access to birth control and the "morning after abortion pill"? The Roman Catholic Church, right now, is being attacked by the United States Government. Another book that claims Jesus never existed & Christianity is a lie is "The Jesus Puzzle" by atheist Earl Doherty of Canada.
@boblackey1 Look at the video I passed on to you on deception. Deception is being as close to truth as possible and mixing it in w/ crucial erroneous doctrine. Just because the Catholic church fights some good battles w/ the government, just like JW fights w/ courts every year to allow for door to door evangelism, does not make the organization Holy or righteous. There are far more abominations that they commit in the eyes of the Lord.
@boblackey1 that is not to say Catholics are bad, I used to be one and my dear uncle who passed on was one of the kindness men I met. We are talking about a religious institution that is corrupt, as you yourself pointed out.
@jtaffiliate So one has to do or obey something to make it in the kingdom of heaven? What is it that you have to do? Believe in Jesus Christ and keep the 10 commandments? Well then that is faith plus works or grace plus keeping the law which is refuted in Galatians is it not? Or is it better to say we are saved by grace alone through faith alone plus nothing & obedience & good works are the fruit of salvation out of love. It shows man that you are saved but merits NOTHING with God
@jtaffiliate Well no there are lots of sins I don't commit. But sin is sin and all have sinned and come short of righeousness except one. Jesus was holy and seperate from sinners from the time he was in Mary's womb. The probem is man is a sinner and continues to be a sinner even after coming to Christ. Forgive me my trespasses and I forgive those who sin agains ME. Sanctification is a process. Not salvation. Man is saved when he comes to Christ but is yet a sinner. During sanctification, the man
@boblackey1 Yes, a process. But you have to start the process, cause if you don't, you will be lost. You have to engage in repentance, sanctification with the help of Jesus, cause if you do not, you will be lost. Even the devils believe and tremble.
@jtaffiliate Sanctification doesn't save anybody. Why? Because it is never complete in this life. Even the Christian still struggles in "fallen human flesh" which has a bent toward sin and rebellion. Even pride transgresses the law. There is NOT ONE in the SDA church or any church including the Pope himself who is holy, sinless and blameless. Only justification saves a man. The imputed righteousness of Christ given by grace through faith alone. Luther had that right!
@boblackey1 I agree. Maybe this will help you understand. A criminal cannot avoid the penalty for the crime (or be justified) by not committing additional crimes. He is still a criminal and must be punished. But if the law giver paid the penalty for him on the condition of turning away from his criminal ways (repentance), then he is justified. But is it wise then for him to continue in his crimes (neglect repentance)? Of course not, because then he will lose that justification.
@jtaffiliate That is not a good comparison. A human being is fallen & in rebellion toward God. He has evil and desire to sin in his heart. When a man turns to Christ in repentance, he is saved by his profession of faith by grace alone through the imputed righteousness of Christ. Yet like Paul, he continues to be a sinner & fallen. His walk with Christ is not perfect & the man is NOT sinless & holy in the work of sanctification. If he allows Christ to be Lord he will grow but...
@boblackey1 Your right, its not a perfect comparison. But it is the basics. If you understand the difference of covering our sins vs blotting out, your understanding would increase. And you would also understand how it is that Jesus's sacrifice covers our sins even after we accept him.
@jtaffiliate But even at the end of his life, he will YET FALL SHORT of the perfect, sinless & holy being that is required to stand before a Holy God in heaven. So it is ONLY justification that saves. Even at the hour of the Christians death, Christ's imputed holiness by grace alone makes the man holy. The man's good works & obedience, no matter how great & wonderful, still falls short. Teaching that man can be sinless & perfect in this flesh is a huge error that some SDAs hold!
@boblackey1 No one teaches that man can be sinless or perfect. I don't know where you get that idea from. However, we are to strive to that end, through Christ. A just man falls 7 times and rises up again. Prov 24:16. So let me ask you, do you believe in once saved always saved?
@jtaffiliate if he is following Jesus as his Lord, is becoming more and more Christ like and is not willfully sinning as much. But pride transgresses the law and we are to love our neighbor as much as we love our selves. Man can't do that in fallen sinfull flesh. But if we remain in Christ, he will continue to cleans us with his holy righteousness and imput to us his holliness at the hour of our death. Then comes "glorification" which is when we will be sinless. No sinless people now. Sorry.
@boblackey1 Never said there was. Where dd you get that idea? But sin is the transgression of Gods law 1 John 3:4, and Gods law is the 10 commandments.
@boblackey, btw your right on everything else you said. As I said, you are rdy to throw out canonical text to support your thesis, while I can support my claims w/ the ENTIRE biblical canon. This alone should convict you to rethink your theology and open your heart. Time is running out, and it does not benefit me to see you converted to truth. I just hope you can get past your traditions and overcome.
@jtaffiliate Well not according to the Apostle of John. In 1 John 3 22-24 when John finally, after much talk about God's commandments, finally lists God's commandments he writes "believe in Jesus Christ and love one another". How could John write such a thing? HOW? Yes sin is transgression of the law but the law condemns and can not pardon or save no matter how hard one tries to keep it. But the keeping of the law no flesh shall be justified. Saved by grace alone plus nothing!!
@boblackey1 I answered this already? Can you love Jesus w/ out keeping the first four commandments, can you love one another w/ out keeping the second six? You cannot just take one verse out of context and cling on to it. It doesn't work that way my friend. Compare scripture w/ scripture.
@boblackey1 What is stopping you from serving the Lord fully? Talk to me from your heart. If you accepted what I told you so far, what would that mean to you?
@jtaffiliate The Apostle John mentions commandments often in his epistles and in Revelation. But the ONLY time he spells it out clearly what he means by commandments he says "believe in Jesus Christ and love one another". There is NOTHING like that in the Old Testament. Clearly a conservative Jew keeps the first four & the last six. But does he believe in Jesus Christ? NO! conservative Jews reject Jesus, Paul and the NT. The Jew uses the Old Testament ONLY!
@boblackey1 They keep the first four and last six, and if they also believed in Christ they would be all set. They still are following the law in order to be saved, not obeying the law because they are saved. See the difference?
@jtaffiliate Have you even been in a conservative Jewish neighborhood in New York on the Sabbath? They are far superior to a SDA in keeping the Sabbath. No light bulbs on as someone is working at the power station. They won't ride in a car or a bus because one can't build a fire on the Sabbath and the engine has a fire in each cylinder. I have yet to meet a SDA who keeps the Sabbath as spelled out in the Bible. They always say Jesus relaxed those restrictions. But WHEN??
@boblackey1 Yes, I lived in NY. I am very familiar with how they keep the Sabbath. But Jews practice salvation by works. This is not what I am referring to. And if you took pains to understand that your eyes would be opened.
@jtaffiliate Also with all due respect to your faith & to Ellen White, there is little doubt that your doctrine. your understanding of the Scripture is guided & settled by the Spirit of Prophecy (EGW). You wouldn't dare take a position of Biblical understanding that differs from the clear teaching of EGW. Dr. Ford did that and get his credentials revoked, lost his job & was kicked out. Just like Dr. Crosson was by the Catholics. And Luther was kicked out by the Catholics too!
@boblackey1 You create your own rules or double binds. First off, I disagreed w/ a lot about Ellen White after reading some of her stuff, this is AFTER my baptism. I wasn't baptized believing in any of her stuff nor had I read any of her books. However, after careful study, I truly believe she is inspired and I have to reason to differ at this point because I am convinced through study that all I have read is valid. Dr. Fords mistake is a doctrinal floor. Yes he had to go.
@boblackey1 The same holy spirit that inspired Ellen White also Inspires scripture. However, there are degrees of light that are given. Ellen White writings is simply the lesser light. They do not supersede the Bible.
@jtaffiliate It seems to me that the often used view that EGW is a lesser light as opposed to scripture being the greater light is odd. Why use the lesser light then? Go to the greater light. But if we are using the lesser light to get the sure and inspired understanding of what the greater light is teaching and we are considered in error and opposed to light and truth if we reject the lesser light's take on a part of scripture, then the lesser light suddenly is equal to the bible.
@boblackey1 indeed. The reason is people are not reading the greater light and those that do give it a wrong interpretation. God sent his prophet to set the facts straight. All you have to do is search the scriptures (greater light) to validate the lesser light, EGW.
@jtaffiliate BTW, I once had neighbors who were devoted SDAs and when to church with them more than once. I like these people and met some find people who are SDA. So I'm not picking on you or EGW. EGW strikes me as a woman who was odd and deserving of doubt by skeptics such as myself, but also a woman who loved Jesus & had a strong desire to serve him that would equal Billy Graham or Martin Luther. I'm just a skeptic and do not mean to trash someone's faith. I could be wrong.
@boblackey1 No I think you been handling yourself honorably so far. So thank you for your honesty. I would say that you should be a skeptic. I was of the Bible and I was definitely of EGW. When I hear the word prophet, I run the other way. I think its natural because of the stories we hear and because we are not used to it. When I was baptized, I still did not believe totally in EGW;s inspiration. It was after careful research that my faith increased in her writings.
@boblackey1 I would just say one thing. Every prophet, a real or a false one is going to be attacked by well meaning people perhaps. So we have to discern each message from the prophet and test it against the bible. I do that to this day with Ellen White.
@jtaffiliate No I do not hold that Martin Luther was inspired to put pen to paper as is said of Peter, Paul, James etc. Martin Luther tried to correct the Catholic church on his four cornerstone doctrines of Christianity. Christ along vs Christ plus work, Faith alone vs faith plus keeping the law, Grace alone vs grace plus merit from our good works and scripture alone vs scripture plus the writings (tradition) of the church. The SDA church agrees w/ Luther in Questions on Doctrine.
@jtaffiliate Don't you think that is a stretch? Huss as he was being burned at the stake is said (there are several versions) that "it is time to cook the goose but in 100 years an eagle will come you can't touch". Supposedly Luther was born in the month of the eagle according to some kind of astrology if I remember correctly. But I guess it could be that Huss predicted Luther but I
Comment removed
leslieckc 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
S.D.A is a cult hand down, i went to that church, i know what they teach, i'm trying to open some of the members eyes but the paster and elders keep fulling their heartsalking with fear, talking about "Gods faithfull commandment keep church will be save" if you're not in one with there teaching they look down on you, they're so proud hearted, trying to plz God with there works, jesus is the sabbath my friend, don't make them fool you.
classiq876 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The Seventh-day Adventists believe that Ellen G. White is a prophet though she did not claim she is. This is a gift from the Holy Spirit & a fulfilled promise of God.
Fidel6720 2 months ago
Comment removed
Fidel6720 2 months ago
@ample99
Remain in your sin? What is sin? 1 Jn 3:4 sin is breaking the 10 commandments. EGW upholds this my friend so you used this out of context too. Friend do you uphold all 10 of God's commandments by faith in Christ only giving you power to keep them, including the Sabbath (7th not 1st)?
Now back to the issue on the the women being silent! If I say children should be quiet in because an adult is speak and another I say children should be quiet because i'm on the phone, that called context
Jondadon2006 3 months ago
@ample99
My friend like I said you have to look at the context!
Jondadon2006 3 months ago
@ample99
im talking of Corinth not timothy
Jondadon2006 3 months ago
@ample99
That verse is highly out of context. That was talking in regards to the issue of pagan worship. They were speaking in false tongues of babbling rather than the correct way. Also women were worshiped as a deity, they were a very sexual people. So in order for the correct image to be shown, they had to put down certain requirements which would be a witness to the rest of those in Corinth. Check the context because in Acts Phillips daughters prophesied and in Judges Deborah was a prophet.
Jondadon2006 3 months ago
Like I said to you, the only way to prove someone false is based on what is taught. Don't copy the pharisees and attack the messenger rather than the message, because if you are aiming at EGW, you are wasting your time because it is not about her, it is about the teachings. God can use anyone and you need to look at the contexts on everything you read. So now if you have anything to say regarding the teaching. So let me know from the Bible where we err,
Thanks
Jondadon2006 3 months ago
@ample99
The only way a church is founded on Jesus is if they speak the truth Jesus taught. If you can disprove what we believe from the Bible then fair enough. But if not, you should be careful when it comes to mocking the prophet of the Lord
Jondadon2006 3 months ago
@Jondadon2006 You say Ellen White is a prophet. A prophet to what? The prophecy was completed in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ...
imax1971 2 months ago
@imax1971
What are you referring to?
Jondadon2006 2 months ago
@Jondadon2006 Well Des Ford really told the truth about the sanctuary. I had always thought it was very odd that EVERY Christian denomination could never find that doctrine in Scripture and indeed it is because it isn't there. One must use Ellen White's writings to find it and THAT MY FRIEND IS NOT BIBLE ALONE BUT BIBLE PLUS ELLEN WHITE!!. Dr. Raymond Crottell also admitted that he couldn't find the 1844/IJ without Ellen White. SDA is NOT really a Bible ALONE chruch.
boblackey1 2 months ago
@boblackey1 read the book of Hebrews, its there.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate The 1844/Investigative Judgment doctrine is IN the book of Hebrews? Where? I don't know of anyone who finds that doctrine in the book of Hebrews! Indeed Dr. Ford's most powerful argument is that Hebrews refutes the 1844 doctrine in chapters 8 & 9.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 The sanctuary is in Hebrews. The investigative judgement is a culmination of prophecy and an understanding of the sanctuary process. Its ironic how you criticize us for using Ellen White but then all you can do is defer to Dr. Ford for your inspiration. Ellen White did nothing but lift up scripture.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate I don't criticize anyone for using Ellen White or J. Vernon McGee or Martin Luther or John Wesley as a commentary on scripture. My point is that Ellen White must be wrong about the 1844/investigative judgment doctrine. No other denomination or NT scholar has found the doctrine & there are Adventists who decent from it with Dr. Ford probably the most famous.& my view is that to many Adventists Ellen White's writings are inspired JUST LIKE THE SCRIPTURE.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 The criteria for biblical truth is not how many denominations use it. In fact, if you study the bible, Gods truth always started from a movement of just a few. When it comes to prophetic interpretation, are you a futurist or a preterit?
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate I'm post trib. Also I don't accept any dates including 1844 for the second coming which could be 1,000 years from now. Nobody knows and ALL predictions have been wrong and all will. William Miller was wrong, Rev. Camping was wrong just recently. Ellen White clearly is wrong about 1844. There is nothing in the Bible which clearly teaches that Jesus remained outside the most holy place until Oct 1844. Also how can EGW be the last days prophet when she died in 1915?
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 her message is for the last days, not her physical presence. As someone who believes in post tribulation, what is the overview of how you interpret the 7 churches in Revelation 2 and 3? My understanding is that both futurist and historicist agree that the 7 churches represent the 7 christian churches through out the ages starting from the time of the Apostles. Would your interpretation also agree?
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate No I don't agree with the 7 churches interpretation. There is only ONE church today and that is made up by those who are saved by faith in Christ and the denomination has nothing to do with the true church. The SDA's claim to be the "true" church, God's church for today. That I can't accept anymore than I can accept the Catholic church being the true church.
boblackey1 1 month ago
Comment removed
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@boblackey1 So you do not agree with Scoffield or Hal Lindseys interpretation of Revelation 2 and 3? What are your thoughts then on Revelation 2 and 3? Is it a private interpretation or do you have a link to share? All the reformers and early protestant commentaries subscribed to the historicist interpretation.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate Scoffield was a great scholar and fine Christian and his thought should be given careful attention by anyone who wants to live the Christian life. But personally I don't agree with all that he holds. I have several relatives who are in their 90 & been Christians for 75 years who hold that the Scoffield reference Bible is the most accurate and solid understanding of the scripture on earth. Almost like scripture to them. I'm rather liberal with my understanding.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate As to Hal Lindsey, he strikes me in a similar way as Ellen White's 1844/Investigative Judgment doctrine. I first read Lindsey's book in the 1960's, over 50 years ago, and we were at the very end of time back then. Mrs. White is quoted as saying the IJ is correct & it will be short. I think she is wrong on both counts but clearly even to an honest SDA, she has to be wrong on the second point. 166 years isn't short in human terms. Everybody who heard that from her is dead
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 Here is my point, most reputable scholars agree that revelation 2 and 3 do inf act represent the christian dispensation through out the ages. With this interpretation it is agreed that the 7th church, the church of Laodicia, is the last day church. Even if you do not agree, there are those outside of adventism that do, including Scofield. So then, if we are in the last days, then based on Scoffield, we have to conclude that we are living in the time of the 7th church.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate let us entertain this possibility of the 7th church being the last church prior to Christ coming for a second. If you could, look up what Laodicea means and then read the description of who the church in Revelation 3:14.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate By your theory then, we entered the last days when the SDA church was formed. That also means that the SDA church is the true church & all the others are NOT the true church. Well that makes Baptists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Lutherans, Methodists, Wesleyans etc etc mad does it not? My view is NO denomination is the church or the true church. The true church is made up of those who are IN Christ & saved by his grace through faith alone & it includes Catholics!
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 The church represents the body of people are of one accord. The message for the last days. When the persecution of the saints begins, there will be no institution, just people who believe with one accord. I believe those people will be the ones who keep the commandments of God, worship the creator (4th commandment), and have the testimony of Jesus. This is the message of the SDA church. This church will warn about the antichrist and beg the saints to come out of her.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate "This church will warn about the antichrist and beg the saints to come out of her" Out of her means what? The Roman Catholic Church or The Greek Orthodox Church or the Methodist Church or all of the above? The church is those who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior & are born again. The denomination has nothing to do with that. So one must resign their denomination or the Roman Catholic Church or loss their salvation when Jesus comes?
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 out of false worship Bob. This whole controversy is about true worship vs false worship. Cain and Abel were both worshiping God, but God only accepted Abel's worship, not Cains. It is not because God was mean, it is because he gave specific commandments as to how he was to be worshiped. Cain broke Gods commandment and became envious of Abel who obeyed. In the end Cain slew Abel. This is a sneak preview as to what will happen at the close of time.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate I'm post trib. Also I don't accept any dates including 1844 for the second coming which could be 1,000 years from now. Nobody knows and ALL predictions have been wrong and all will. William Miller was wrong, Rev. Camping was wrong just recently. Ellen White clearly is wrong about 1844. There is nothing in the Bible which clearly teaches that Jesus remained outside the most holy place until Oct 1844. Also how can EGW be the last days prophet when she died in 1915?
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 No, there is the holy place and the most holy place. The belief is that Jesus, our high priest, minsters in the holy place and in 1844 moved to the most holy place.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate Well clearly there is NOTHING in Hebrews 8 or 9 or anywhere in the New Testament which teaches such a doctrine. Jesus did not move in 1844 and that is the rub Dr. Ford has with Ellen White. That the Bible nowhere teaches that Christ moved in 1844 but was already in the Most Holy. Actually Dr. Ford, whom I met and heard in the 1980's, supports most of EGW's teachings and one of his favorite books outside the Bible is Steps to Christ by her.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 is the model of the earthly tabernacle in Exodus created after the pattern of the one in heaven?
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate Where IS heaven? Where is this tabernacle located? My take is one can't take this stuff literally. Hebrews says Jesus ascended into heaven itself and sat down at the right hand of God. Dr. Ford and almost all conservative scholars content that IS the Most Holy Place in type even if there is not a literal tabernacle like the Jews had on earth. If Jesus is God, then did he sit down next to himself? Remember even SDA's hold there is but ONE God expressed in the Trinity.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 Those such as the Jehovah Witnesses and the Worldwide Church of God insist the Trinity is false and not taught in scripture and it's pagan with the view that there are THREE Gods. The father is a God. the son is a God and the Holy Spirit is a God. But the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox & most protestants churches hold that there is but ONE God who, through a mystery, is expressed in three ways. Not three equal gods but ONE God!!
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 yes, and that is a biblical doctrine. Of course we know there is a pagan counterfeit. Satan is the author of paganism and used to be a covering cherub, of course he would counterfeit the true trinity w/ his pagan deities.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate The great commission in Matthew says to baptise in the name of the Father and in the name of the Son and in the name of the Holy Spirit. The Greek Orthodox church which claims to have never been part of the Roman Catholic church and was founded by Paul himself, has a three dip baptism. The protestant denomination "Brethren & church of the brethren do the same plus wash feet during communion. Is the biblical or being too literal with the great commission?
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 I have no problem w/ the 3 dip thing. They want to follow Christ as best they can. I would not put too much emphasis on 3 dip vs 1 dip debates. Foot washing is a memorial given to us by Jesus, so if he says it, we should do it.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate According to the Greek Orthodox Church, the New Testament believers are to obey the commands of Jesus and one of the several commands of Jesus is to baptise IN the name of the Father AND IN the name of the Son AND IN the name of the Holy Spirit. They insist that Scripture teaches a three dip baptism. So as you say, if Jesus says it we should do it. But do it and the other commands of Jesus for what reason? So we can be saved? Are we saved by keeping a command?
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 I was baptized in the name of all three and dipped once, I do not understand what your getting at. We are saved by coming to the foot of the cross AND repenting. If we do not do both, we will be loss. Luke 5:32
"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Hebrews 10:26
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins"
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 Yes, in order for there to be a most holy place, there has to be a holy place. Just simple logic. The earthly tabernacle was made after the pattern shown according to Exodus and Hebrews. Now the question I propose to you is, why does God the father have to be in the most holy place? In fact, I contend that he was not in the most holy place, but was in the holy place on his throne.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate this is during Jesus first ascension by the way
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate Well then where is God the father now? Jesus went into the most holy place in 1844 & God the father is in the holy place on his throne. Where is God the Holy Spirit? We have to be careful or we will have THREE Gods and Christianity is suppose to have ONE God! So God the father sits on his throne in outerspace in the area of Orion, the son is in the most holy place reviewing the life's record of those who claimed Jesus as savior to see if their sin is to be blotted out.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 God the father and Jesus both moved into the most holy place.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate It just doesn't work with me. I content that one can't take the imagery in the Bible about the center of heaven literally. Heaven is not in Orion and God the father, son and holy spirit are ONE god and are everywhere. Sitting on the throne, most holy place, Orion, Manhattan Island, Mars & Kenya. Hebrews says Jesus entered heaven itself. Paul ascended to the 7th heaven. Where was that?
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 what verse is that where Paul ascended to 7th heaven? I forgot?
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate 2 Con 12 1-4 and now that I think about it, I think Paul said "third" heaven. So where did Paul go? Or was he just having a vision of the future or was he out of his mind or what?
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 That is a good question. If I may, I believe the Bible refers to three different locations as heaven. The first heaven is the atmospheric sky where the birds fly. The second heaven is where the stars are located as written by David in Psalms 19:1. The third heaven is the heavens of heavens, this is where gods throne is located. Where do you see the dilemma if you do see one?
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate There are more stars in the universe than grains of sand on all the beaches and deserts on earth. 300 billion galaxies and most galaxies contain 200 to 300 billion stars with our sun being just one of billions of stars in our galaxy, the Milky Way. Also the universe didn't exist until 13.5 billion years ago. So my feeling is heaven is in another dimension.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 There is certainty a spiritual dimension. Ask yourself this important question, why was scripture written?. Please realize the Bible was written for OUR benefit. We always have to ask, what is the practical message that God wants us to know. Why is he revealing this to us and how does that get us closer to Jesus. We can speculate but that would God a disservice. He always wants us to know something important. Believe his word.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@jtaffiliate It just doesn't work with me. I content that one can't take the imagery in the Bible about the center of heaven literally. Heaven is not in Orion and God the father, son and holy spirit are ONE god and are everywhere. Sitting on the throne, most holy place, Orion, Manhattan Island, Mars & Kenya. Hebrews says Jesus entered heaven itself. Paul ascended to the 7th heaven. Where was that?
boblackey1 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@jtaffiliate I'm post trib. Also I don't accept any dates including 1844 for the second coming which could be 1,000 years from now. Nobody knows and ALL predictions have been wrong and all will. William Miller was wrong, Rev. Camping was wrong just recently. Ellen White clearly is wrong about 1844. There is nothing in the Bible which clearly teaches that Jesus remained outside the most holy place until Oct 1844. Also how can EGW be the last days prophet when she died in 1915?
boblackey1 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate While attending a Lutheran Church with a friend who was a member there, I noted they have a study Bible with commentary by Martin Luther after most chapters BUT they don't hold Luther's writings as equal to the scripture. I've heard more than one Adventist pastor say "let us see what inspiration says" & I will get quotes from the Bible AND EWG. How can Adventists claim to join other protestants in holding "Bible ALONE" yet use EGW's writings as also inspired?
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 Your framing it wrong. You should really ask yourself, does the bible teach their will be prophets during the last days? Are the writings of Ellen White contrary to scripture? These are the questions you should ask. So far the only disagreements are speculative interpretation, but not fact.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate
boblackey1 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate The writings of EGW are not contrary to Scripture to a conservative Adventist but they are at some points to Dr. Ford & many SDAs who agreed with QOD. Such as the human nature of Christ etc. How does a conservative Adventist get their understanding of what the Bible teaches? From EGW!! So on wonder EGW is not contrary to Scripture. Also who are the last day prophets? Any others beside EGW? Certainly John the Baptist was alive when Jesus appeared the first time.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 I was converted 4 years ago based on scripture only, and had never read an EGW book in my life. Also what you said makes no sense or sounds like a cop out. It does not matter where you get your interpretation from, what matters is if its biblical. There are plenty of interpretations that are contrary to scripture and its easily proven in most cases.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate Every denomination holds their interpretation of scripture is NOT contrary to scripture. There are some cases where a denomination has changed on some points. May I ask you if the Spirit of Prophecy books are equal to and inspired JUST LIKE THE SCRIPTURE? Also EGW's main point to me is that those who are not keeping the 7th day Sabbath and the 10 commandments pefectly will be lost.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 actually, no that is not EGW main point. If you know the truth and you resist it, you do so at risk of your salvation. But during the last days prior to Jesus coming, Sabbath keeping vs Sunday will be the primary issue.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate There is NOTHING in the New Testament that teaches Sabbath vs Sunday keeping will be the primary issue just prior to Jesus' coming. The gospels do not teach it, Paul doesn't, Peter, James, Revelations, the church fathers or any denomination other than SDA and EGW! Personally I keep neither Saturday or Sunday. Dr. Stanley (Baptist) preached that if one wants to apply the 10 commandments to Christian living, only nine are for the Christian. The 4th is not repeated in NT.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 again, this is where it helps to understand biblical prophecy. Unless you have a good foundation, you will be in the dark about issues like the one I just told you about.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@boblackey1 no offense brother, but you listen to a lot of false teachers, but do not study it for yourself. What heresy is it that Christians would go from selecting and choosing the commandments of God. Who gave you or any earthly preacher the authority to do that?
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@boblackey1 the truth is there are parallels to the Christian world today and to Israel back in the time of Jesus. Israel new that the Christ was to come during there day, but He did not come as they expected so they did not recognize him. In the same way, many Christians know we are living in the last days but they know not who the antichrist is. As a result they will exalt the false Christ in exchange for the true God. Rev 14:9
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate You taking about the TV preacher Charles Stanley who is pastor of First Baptist in Atlanta. He says only 9 commandments are for the Christian. The fourth is not and is NOT repeated in the NT. But John uses the greek word "nomas" which means "teachings & commands". I think John is talking about the commands of Jesus and NOT the 10 commandments. And you know that in the NT the apostle John actually lists God's commandments. Believe in the Lord Jesus & love one another.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate So if we then go to Revelations and read John's words there and he says the saints of God are those who have the faith of Jesus and keep the commandments of God, is John taking about the 10 commandments in the OT or the two he lists in his epistles while driving home the importance of God's commandments, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ & Love one another? How could John write such as thing?
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 He says all the laws hang on those two commandments, which are simply quotes for Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18. Do you believe it when John 1:3 says that through Jesus all things were created and without Him nothing was made that was made? Who do you think wrote the 10 commandments? If you love me keep My commandments. John 14:15. Notice the wording in the commandments in Exodus 20:6 but showing mercy unto those that love Me and keep My commandments.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate BTW I forgot to give you the chapter and verse. 1 John 3 22-24. John writes much about keeping God's commandments in this epistle. But in the third chapter at verse 22, John actually tells us what he means by commandments. "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and love one another". How could John write such a thing? It says NOTHING about the Sabbath or adultery or stealing etc. And this is the same John conservative Christians believe wrote Revelations.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 simple, if you love God, you will keep the first four commandments, if you love your neighbor you will keep the last 6.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate Apparently if one wants to hold that John wrote Revelations and the same John wrote the three epistles, this John who is said to have instructed Polycarp before his death and Polycarp wrote nothing about keeping the 7th day that I know, the commandments mentioned in Revelations are but two. Believe in God and accept Jesus Christ as savior. So I ask as to Revelation.."what commandments?" As to truth, are you certain it's in the NT or is it EGW's understanding of the NT?
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 See answer above. Also look at the angels message in Revelation 14:6. You realize the only commandment that acknowledges the lord as the creator is the one you are abolishing? A memorial to creation in which God ceased from his works? Rev 14:7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate Well what in the world does 1 John 3 22-24 mean? The Apostle John wrote about commandments often in Revelations and his epistles. "those who keep the commandments of God", "if you say you are in Christ Jesus & keep not his commandments, you are a liar" AND when he finally tells us what God's commandments are is wrote "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and love one another". How could he write such a thing. That is heretical is it not?
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 Jesus said, I am in the father and the father is in me. Jesus is the same as God, not contrary to him. God the father does not desire one thing and his son another. God gave his only Son to save us from sin, not in sin. Sin is the transgression fo Gods law. We are to repent from sinning when we accept Jesus. It is really not as complicated as you make it sound. Jesus commandments is also the fathers commandments.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@boblackey1: By loving Jesus, you keep the first four commandments in Exodus 20, by loving your neighbor, you keep the second six. BTW, you do see the problem with not believing Jesus is God, since you separate them, you are confusing all types of doctrine in scripture. You think the commandments of Jesus is different then the commandments of His Father. Scripture is so plain when you have proper understanding and context.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate Yes there is much wrong with what you wrote to me. Jesus and God the Father and the Holy Spirit are not three different persons but ONE person or being which is God. Father, Son & Holy Spirit are eternal, not created. We are indeed saved IN sin. You are still a sinner are you not? Or do you claim to be SINLESS, perfect & without spot or blemish. What are the commandments in 1 John 3 22-24? Believing in Jesus Christ & love one another..is that what he means in Revelation
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 I am a sinner, but I am not a sinner in that I willfully continue commit the same sins. I repented of my previous sins and through Jesus I will get victory over other sins that come into my life. But we are not saved IN sin my friend. Israel was a slave to Egypt and was rescued from slavery. In the same way, Jesus said we are a slave to sin, John 8:34, and through him we get victory from Sin. He did not die so that we can continue to willfully sin. Think it through.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate And the first commandment in 1 John 3 22-24 is: "Believe in Jesus Christ". Would that now be the most important commandment from God? Or is it the Sabbath? Or some other commandment.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 I tacked this question many times already. Brother it is time to stop arguing and submit to Jesus. Jesus wants all of you. He does not want hypocritical Christianity. A God who hates sin is not going to rescue people so that they can continue to Sin. Am I more righteous then my creator? As a father I always want my children to exhibit high moral standards in there life. If I a sinful human being can feel that way, how much more the creator for me?
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate Acknowledging the Lord as creator is not what saves a man is it? It is repentance and accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior through faith by his grace alone and not by law keeping or good works according to Paul. Was Paul wrong? And why did Paul not write one word about the virgin birth? Even thought about that? That doctrine must not be that important to Paul.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 Ask yourself this, is James contradicting Paul in James 2:24? Paul says Justified by faith alone and James says justify by faith and works. To you this would seem like a contradiction, to me they work together perfectly. Remember Jesus words, not everyone that says to Me Lord Lord will make it to the kingdom, but he that does the WILL of my FATHER which is in heaven.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate BTW that verse is Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate Martin Luther thought James was contradicting Paul and in the Lutheran Bible, James is the last book. Luther called it "an epistle of straw" and seriously doubted it should have been included in the canon of Scripture. And you know the canon of the New Testament wasn't set in stone until centuries after Paul lived & some books & gospels made it and others didn't. The Catholic church claims to have decided what was to be in the New Testament.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 wow brother. You are really going down a slippery slope now. Now you want to pick and choose which books go into the canon? Where does it stop? How about trusting what God says first? Luther had limited resources. The scholars of King James (after Luther) had the opportunity to look critically at the canon and decide which books belong. Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate The canon of Scripture was closed long before the King James scholars in the 14th century. The Roman Catholic church chose the books and closed the canon. So if the SDAs want to add Great Controversy and the Mormons want to add Pearl of Great Price and the Christian Scientists want to add the works of Mary Baker Eddy, it is TOO late. Scripture is closed. So James made it before Luther's time. Now modern scholars claim 1 & 2 Tim & Titus are second century forgeries & not inspired!!
boblackey1 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 That is a myth. The Christians in 2 and 3rd century already had the scripture of truth in possession. Pagans simply incorporated something already in existence. Then the Catholics added some not-credible books into their bible. BTW, you are not to look to modern scholars for the final authority. Brother your whole faith is going down into secular deception. How would uninspired scholars know what is inspired? Be careful. What are you afraid of my accepting truth?
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate Have you seen the new book from Bart Ehrman, PhD who is the James A Gray professor of New Testament and Christian origins at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill? It is called "Forged" and according to Dr. Ehrman & 99 percent of modern scholars, 1 and 2 Timothy & Titus was NOT written by Paul but are second century forgeries. What scholarship would you offer to counter Dr. Ehrman's claimed careful analysis of Paul's letters?
boblackey1 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@boblackey Therefore, let us look critically at what these scholars are telling us. Why do they believe that these books are forgeries of the second century?
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate Bart Ehrman, PhD was a Baptist scholar who claims that through he work he came to the conclusion that the Bible can not be inspired or the word of God. After careful research of 1,000 of ancient manuscripts Ehrman came to this conclusion. I hope he is wrong but it is troubling to me. His latest book "Forged" shows how careful analysis of Paul's letters proves that 1 and 2 Timothy & Titus were NOT written by Paul and are most likely 2nd century forgeries.
boblackey1 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 I am sorry you rest your salvation on the statement of an agnostic believer. I am in the process of reading his book and can already see where he errs. You need to understand that his "criteria"for forgery is what brings him to his conclusion. But its still a hypothesis not a statement of fact. ...
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 ... For example in chapter 1 he makes the point that most scholars feel that revelation cannot be the writing of John the beloved because of the language. Hello, the book of revelation was written years, possibly decades later then the book of John for one. I know my writing is much different now then 10 years ago. Also the entire book is symbolic imagery. Be careful with who you trust. This is just a small snippet of why he is in error.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 Did you read his testimony on how he embarked on his journey to agnosticism? (Actually he is probably more atheist since he does not believe there is a God.) His argument was that he could not reconcile what he was as contradictions in the scripture. This is the #1 reason why Christians, especially those raised int he faith leave. I reconciled all contradictions. I do not see any. This is why Jesus says build your house on the rock not on the sand.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate I have heard a former SDA scholar, Ronald Numbers, speak. He is now an agnostic and NOT a Christian due to his critical scholarship on the Bible and Ellen White. He studied his way out of the SDA church & Christianity in general. Another X SDAscholar who is now an agnostic/atheist is Robert Brimsmead. Dr. Crosson was a Roman Catholic Priest and was kicked out for turning agnostic & writing decent books about the Bible & the gospels not being historically reliable.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@jtaffiliate I have heard a former SDA scholar, Ronald Numbers, speak. He is now an agnostic and NOT a Christian due to his critical scholarship on the Bible and Ellen White. He studied his way out of the SDA church & Christianity in general. Another X SDAscholar who is now an agnostic/atheist is Robert Brimsmead. Dr. Crosson was a Roman Catholic Priest and was kicked out for turning agnostic & writing decent books about the Bible & the gospels not being historically reliable.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@jtaffiliate id you read his testimony on how he embarked on his journey to agnosticism? (Actually he is probably more atheist since he does not believe there is a God.) His argument was that he could not reconcile what he saw as contradictions in scripture. This is the #1 reason why Christians, especially those raised int he faith leave. I reconciled all contradictions. I do not see any. This is why Jesus says build your house on the rock not on the sand.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate I didn't say I rest my faith on Bart Ehrman, PhD. Also if you check carefully, the MAJORITY of scholars reject Paul as author of 1 and 2 Timothy & Titus. Ehrman goes beyond those three. Now even conservative scholars hold that Paul didn't write Hebrews & that is why almost ALL preachers who have some education always say "the author of Hebrews says" without giving a person's name. A scholar I like, J. Vernon McGee, holds that Paul used scribes which makes it look differ
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1 Bob, I already told you my position. The scholarly world is a different world then biblical hermeneutics. Hermeneutics validates each and every one of those books. In fact, this is the miracle of scripture for those who has ears to hear. I have such an amazing understanding of scripture that it really matters little what scholars says. While it helps to get incite from them, they are not the final source of authority. Remember, it says that Satan deceives the WORLD.
jtaffiliate 2 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate But critical scholars for decades have attacked 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus. Check it out and see that even in the 19th century, this was done by critical scholars. The Roman Catholic Church has a website defending Paul as author of 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus but skeptics such as Ehrman, Mack, Tabor, Edwards, Miller, Price, Crosson (former Catholic) etc etc say the Catholic site is pitiful. Also I know that a few SDA liberal scholars at Andrews U. also agree it's not Paul.
boblackey1 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 I am aware. This is because you are not aware of who the enemy is and who would have motivation to attack those books.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate This and the FACT as Dr. Ehrman points out that the women caught in adultery story in John's gospel and the last chapter of Mark's gospel are missing from the oldest manuscripts is troubling to me. The skeptical scholars are not making up this stuff to embarrass Christianity. Check any good study Bible at John 8 and you will see an * and at the bottom of the page it reads "the oldest manuscripts do not contain these verses". Why? How did that story get in the Bible?
boblackey1 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 I suggest you youtube battle of the bibles. Oldest does not == more accurate. In fact, I subscribe to the latter textus receptus for accuracy over the greek manuscripts.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate BTW, James A Gray was the former head of R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company in Winston-Salem, N.C. and a millionaire. He was a Methodist and left money in his will to support a professor of New Testament at the University of North Carolina. But today the person who holds that chair and teaching position is Bart Ehrman, PhD who is professor of New Testament and Christian origins but is NOT a believer & an agnostic. Mr. Gray probably didn't expect that to happen.
boblackey1 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@boblackey1 And why do you accept what Bart Ehlman says? Just because they are educated? If you judge the information on just the credibility of the scholars, you can and will be deceived as spoken in Matthew 24 Aksi.do you not know that the Jesuit counter reformation is about disseminating false information about the biblical canon in order to achieve religio dominance as the mother church? Therefore, we must judge by the credibility of the message itself.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate And where in the history of the Christian church would you find evidence that 2nd and 3rd century Christians were not Catholic or Orthodox? There were NO protestants then. And what of Dr. Ehrman's claim that in John's gospel, John 8, the story of the woman caught in adultery is an interpolation and is NOT part of the original gospel of John? Indeed modern study Bible's have an * there & at the bottom of page it reads: oldest manuscripts don't contain these verses.
boblackey1 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 Bob, do not get caught on the term. Catholicism is a 3rd century faith. in the early 1st century, Christians were not even identified as Christians. They were just a Jewish sect. It was not until later in the apostles ministry in one particular providence was that name used. Even then it was not quite wide spread and accepted. In second century you certainly will not find the word Catholic in any literature.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 The point is that there is that there was simply Christians,who btw dwelt in the caves of Rome and were persecuted heavily. Its also interesting to note that peter is 1 Peter 5:13 calls Rome Babylon, at a time when the real Babylon lay in ruins.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate Then how did Peter end up being buried under St. Peter's Church in Rome? And how did the Catholics end up with Paul's tomb? They allowed scientists to bore a hole in it and put a camera inside and saw a few bone fragments and linen fragments with the rest rotted away. But is it really Paul?
boblackey1 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@boblackey1 @boblackey1 First read Foxes book of Martyrs. It is said that Peter was crucified by the Roman government upside down on a cross. If there is any validity to papal Romes claim, why would it be unreasonable for the church/government to have authority to build their church on that tomb? What does that prove aside from reinforcing prophecy of Babylon who committed adultery with the wine of her fornication.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate Have you read the church fathers. Have you read Justin Martyr who wrote in the second century? Do you know Polycarp claims to have studied under the apostle John when he was at an advanced age. These people talk about the communion table used like the Catholics use it and meeting on Sunday. Actually Catholic means "universal".
boblackey1 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 why are you a big fan of Catholicism? It is well known that early Christians gathered on Saturday and Sunday. However, nothing in the Bible shows that the apostles gathered on Sunday. Also man does not make a day holy, only God does.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate In the greek, most scholars find the words of John "I was in the spirit on the Lord's day" to mean a day dedicated by the church to Jesus. They hold this was the 1st day because it is the day he rose from the dead. Just 40&50 years later you have people such as Justin Martyr & Pliny the Younger talking about Christians gathering early on the first day of the week. I see nothing to indicate that these early Christians attempted to make Sunday holy. Rome did that later.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1 Listen, I am not into speculation. I take a simple approach to scripture. I believe God is powerful enough to guide his sheep until the last days. Simply put, I do not doubt his word. If scripture says that he was in the spirit on the Lords day, I believe it. If Jesus says that he is Lord of the Sabbath, I believe it. If God says the 7th day is the Sabbath of the Lord THY God, I believe it. Its just obvious, no need for doctrinal gymnastics.
jtaffiliate 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@jtaffiliate question for you my friend. We know that the Bible is clear about the time and hour of Christ return is not known (Act1:6-7). How could Ellen W claim that God chose to deliver His people at midnight refered to Christ return (E.G.W, Spiritual Gift, vol.1, pge205)? You could read it at "h t t p://w w w. gilead. net / egw/ books /spiritual gifts /Spiritual_ Gifts._ Volume_ 1/ index. h t m"
Is Ellen above scripture? I can't believe how SDA think she is a prophet
belojo2003 1 week ago
@jtaffiliate I'm not a fan of Catholicism. I often watch their programs on their Eternal Word Network on cable TV out of being curious. Some of their teaching, to me, is very sound and just like a conservative Baptist or Presbyterian such as Dr. Kennedy. But other teaching is a contradiction to standard protestant teaching such as saying the magic words and the wine & bread becomes Christ, praying to Mary to pray to Jesus for us & grace as God's power for works & obedience of merit
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1 I used to be Catholic. This is why I gave you a video on deception. Deception utilizes truth in order to win trust and then ensnares you with the deceptive motive. Like mormans for example wont tell you they believe in many Gods but purposely present a mainstream Christian front. Similarly, Catholics believe in the co-redemtrics, that Mary is co-redeemer with Christ and exalt Mary. They also pray to mary and her statues. But you will never see that being broadcast.
jtaffiliate 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@boblackey1 question for you my friend. We know that the Bible is clear about the time and hour of Christ return is not known (Act1:6-7). How could Ellen W claim that God chose to deliver His people at midnight refered to Christ return (E.G.W, Spiritual Gift, vol.1, pge205)? You could read it at "h t t p://w w w. gilead. net / egw/ books /spiritual gifts /Spiritual_ Gifts._ Volume_ 1/ index. h t m"
Is Ellen above scripture? I can't believe how SDA think she is a prophet
belojo2003 1 week ago
@jtaffiliate And if you really want to go wild. Read Dr. Burton L. Mack's "Who Wrote the New Testament, the Making of the Christian Myth". Dr. Mack is an atheist but claims to be an expert on the lost "Q" sayings gospel and the origin of Christianity and the New Testament. And to go REALLY wild, visit wwwdotjesusneverexisteddotcom and read Ken Humphrey's site where it is argued that Jesus and Paul never lived as human being and are as mythical as Santa Clause and the tooth fairy.
boblackey1 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 A sheep in wolves clothing? Pretending to be Christian?
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate Yes every denomination has "pretending Christians" who are actually church goers ONLY. Even the SDA church has it's share as do the Baptists, Presbyterians etc.The TRUE church is made up of those who are IN CHRIST by faith and practice and are found in ALL denominations. Even St. Ellen admits that in one of her books.
boblackey1 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 indeed
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate Do you support the Roman Catholic Churches new fight against the Obama administration due to the governments requirement that Catholic hospitals and institutions must allow employees to have access to birth control and the "morning after abortion pill"? The Roman Catholic Church, right now, is being attacked by the United States Government. Another book that claims Jesus never existed & Christianity is a lie is "The Jesus Puzzle" by atheist Earl Doherty of Canada.
boblackey1 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 Look at the video I passed on to you on deception. Deception is being as close to truth as possible and mixing it in w/ crucial erroneous doctrine. Just because the Catholic church fights some good battles w/ the government, just like JW fights w/ courts every year to allow for door to door evangelism, does not make the organization Holy or righteous. There are far more abominations that they commit in the eyes of the Lord.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 that is not to say Catholics are bad, I used to be one and my dear uncle who passed on was one of the kindness men I met. We are talking about a religious institution that is corrupt, as you yourself pointed out.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate So one has to do or obey something to make it in the kingdom of heaven? What is it that you have to do? Believe in Jesus Christ and keep the 10 commandments? Well then that is faith plus works or grace plus keeping the law which is refuted in Galatians is it not? Or is it better to say we are saved by grace alone through faith alone plus nothing & obedience & good works are the fruit of salvation out of love. It shows man that you are saved but merits NOTHING with God
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 indeed, obeying God is the fruits of salvation. So ask yourself, are you obeying God right now?
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate Well no there are lots of sins I don't commit. But sin is sin and all have sinned and come short of righeousness except one. Jesus was holy and seperate from sinners from the time he was in Mary's womb. The probem is man is a sinner and continues to be a sinner even after coming to Christ. Forgive me my trespasses and I forgive those who sin agains ME. Sanctification is a process. Not salvation. Man is saved when he comes to Christ but is yet a sinner. During sanctification, the man
boblackey1 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 Yes, a process. But you have to start the process, cause if you don't, you will be lost. You have to engage in repentance, sanctification with the help of Jesus, cause if you do not, you will be lost. Even the devils believe and tremble.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate Sanctification doesn't save anybody. Why? Because it is never complete in this life. Even the Christian still struggles in "fallen human flesh" which has a bent toward sin and rebellion. Even pride transgresses the law. There is NOT ONE in the SDA church or any church including the Pope himself who is holy, sinless and blameless. Only justification saves a man. The imputed righteousness of Christ given by grace through faith alone. Luther had that right!
boblackey1 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 I agree. Maybe this will help you understand. A criminal cannot avoid the penalty for the crime (or be justified) by not committing additional crimes. He is still a criminal and must be punished. But if the law giver paid the penalty for him on the condition of turning away from his criminal ways (repentance), then he is justified. But is it wise then for him to continue in his crimes (neglect repentance)? Of course not, because then he will lose that justification.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate That is not a good comparison. A human being is fallen & in rebellion toward God. He has evil and desire to sin in his heart. When a man turns to Christ in repentance, he is saved by his profession of faith by grace alone through the imputed righteousness of Christ. Yet like Paul, he continues to be a sinner & fallen. His walk with Christ is not perfect & the man is NOT sinless & holy in the work of sanctification. If he allows Christ to be Lord he will grow but...
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1 Your right, its not a perfect comparison. But it is the basics. If you understand the difference of covering our sins vs blotting out, your understanding would increase. And you would also understand how it is that Jesus's sacrifice covers our sins even after we accept him.
jtaffiliate 2 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate But even at the end of his life, he will YET FALL SHORT of the perfect, sinless & holy being that is required to stand before a Holy God in heaven. So it is ONLY justification that saves. Even at the hour of the Christians death, Christ's imputed holiness by grace alone makes the man holy. The man's good works & obedience, no matter how great & wonderful, still falls short. Teaching that man can be sinless & perfect in this flesh is a huge error that some SDAs hold!
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1 No one teaches that man can be sinless or perfect. I don't know where you get that idea from. However, we are to strive to that end, through Christ. A just man falls 7 times and rises up again. Prov 24:16. So let me ask you, do you believe in once saved always saved?
jtaffiliate 2 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate if he is following Jesus as his Lord, is becoming more and more Christ like and is not willfully sinning as much. But pride transgresses the law and we are to love our neighbor as much as we love our selves. Man can't do that in fallen sinfull flesh. But if we remain in Christ, he will continue to cleans us with his holy righteousness and imput to us his holliness at the hour of our death. Then comes "glorification" which is when we will be sinless. No sinless people now. Sorry.
boblackey1 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 Never said there was. Where dd you get that idea? But sin is the transgression of Gods law 1 John 3:4, and Gods law is the 10 commandments.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@boblackey, btw your right on everything else you said. As I said, you are rdy to throw out canonical text to support your thesis, while I can support my claims w/ the ENTIRE biblical canon. This alone should convict you to rethink your theology and open your heart. Time is running out, and it does not benefit me to see you converted to truth. I just hope you can get past your traditions and overcome.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate Well not according to the Apostle of John. In 1 John 3 22-24 when John finally, after much talk about God's commandments, finally lists God's commandments he writes "believe in Jesus Christ and love one another". How could John write such a thing? HOW? Yes sin is transgression of the law but the law condemns and can not pardon or save no matter how hard one tries to keep it. But the keeping of the law no flesh shall be justified. Saved by grace alone plus nothing!!
boblackey1 3 weeks ago
@boblackey1 I answered this already? Can you love Jesus w/ out keeping the first four commandments, can you love one another w/ out keeping the second six? You cannot just take one verse out of context and cling on to it. It doesn't work that way my friend. Compare scripture w/ scripture.
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@boblackey1 What is stopping you from serving the Lord fully? Talk to me from your heart. If you accepted what I told you so far, what would that mean to you?
jtaffiliate 3 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate The Apostle John mentions commandments often in his epistles and in Revelation. But the ONLY time he spells it out clearly what he means by commandments he says "believe in Jesus Christ and love one another". There is NOTHING like that in the Old Testament. Clearly a conservative Jew keeps the first four & the last six. But does he believe in Jesus Christ? NO! conservative Jews reject Jesus, Paul and the NT. The Jew uses the Old Testament ONLY!
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1 They keep the first four and last six, and if they also believed in Christ they would be all set. They still are following the law in order to be saved, not obeying the law because they are saved. See the difference?
jtaffiliate 2 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate Have you even been in a conservative Jewish neighborhood in New York on the Sabbath? They are far superior to a SDA in keeping the Sabbath. No light bulbs on as someone is working at the power station. They won't ride in a car or a bus because one can't build a fire on the Sabbath and the engine has a fire in each cylinder. I have yet to meet a SDA who keeps the Sabbath as spelled out in the Bible. They always say Jesus relaxed those restrictions. But WHEN??
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1 Yes, I lived in NY. I am very familiar with how they keep the Sabbath. But Jews practice salvation by works. This is not what I am referring to. And if you took pains to understand that your eyes would be opened.
jtaffiliate 2 weeks ago
@jtaffiliate Also with all due respect to your faith & to Ellen White, there is little doubt that your doctrine. your understanding of the Scripture is guided & settled by the Spirit of Prophecy (EGW). You wouldn't dare take a position of Biblical understanding that differs from the clear teaching of EGW. Dr. Ford did that and get his credentials revoked, lost his job & was kicked out. Just like Dr. Crosson was by the Catholics. And Luther was kicked out by the Catholics too!
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1 You create your own rules or double binds. First off, I disagreed w/ a lot about Ellen White after reading some of her stuff, this is AFTER my baptism. I wasn't baptized believing in any of her stuff nor had I read any of her books. However, after careful study, I truly believe she is inspired and I have to reason to differ at this point because I am convinced through study that all I have read is valid. Dr. Fords mistake is a doctrinal floor. Yes he had to go.
jtaffiliate 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1 The same holy spirit that inspired Ellen White also Inspires scripture. However, there are degrees of light that are given. Ellen White writings is simply the lesser light. They do not supersede the Bible.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate It seems to me that the often used view that EGW is a lesser light as opposed to scripture being the greater light is odd. Why use the lesser light then? Go to the greater light. But if we are using the lesser light to get the sure and inspired understanding of what the greater light is teaching and we are considered in error and opposed to light and truth if we reject the lesser light's take on a part of scripture, then the lesser light suddenly is equal to the bible.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 indeed. The reason is people are not reading the greater light and those that do give it a wrong interpretation. God sent his prophet to set the facts straight. All you have to do is search the scriptures (greater light) to validate the lesser light, EGW.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate BTW, I once had neighbors who were devoted SDAs and when to church with them more than once. I like these people and met some find people who are SDA. So I'm not picking on you or EGW. EGW strikes me as a woman who was odd and deserving of doubt by skeptics such as myself, but also a woman who loved Jesus & had a strong desire to serve him that would equal Billy Graham or Martin Luther. I'm just a skeptic and do not mean to trash someone's faith. I could be wrong.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 No I think you been handling yourself honorably so far. So thank you for your honesty. I would say that you should be a skeptic. I was of the Bible and I was definitely of EGW. When I hear the word prophet, I run the other way. I think its natural because of the stories we hear and because we are not used to it. When I was baptized, I still did not believe totally in EGW;s inspiration. It was after careful research that my faith increased in her writings.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@boblackey1 I would just say one thing. Every prophet, a real or a false one is going to be attacked by well meaning people perhaps. So we have to discern each message from the prophet and test it against the bible. I do that to this day with Ellen White.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@boblackey1 Do you not think Luther was inspired for the mission of his day? He had present truth that was sufficient for his time.
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate No I do not hold that Martin Luther was inspired to put pen to paper as is said of Peter, Paul, James etc. Martin Luther tried to correct the Catholic church on his four cornerstone doctrines of Christianity. Christ along vs Christ plus work, Faith alone vs faith plus keeping the law, Grace alone vs grace plus merit from our good works and scripture alone vs scripture plus the writings (tradition) of the church. The SDA church agrees w/ Luther in Questions on Doctrine.
boblackey1 1 month ago
@boblackey1 So then you do not believe John Huss's prophecy about Martin Luther a 100 years after his martyrdom?
jtaffiliate 1 month ago
@jtaffiliate Don't you think that is a stretch? Huss as he was being burned at the stake is said (there are several versions) that "it is time to cook the goose but in 100 years an eagle will come you can't touch". Supposedly Luther was born in the month of the eagle according to some kind of astrology if I remember correctly. But I guess it could be that Huss predicted Luther but I