F-15 Eagle Spatial (Spacial) Disorientation: World Record G

[DonLduk]

the 30-40G measure is instant G's that the plane may suffer, though it's not sustained. It's like the cheap electronic sound systems that say to support 2000Watts. I mean! an amazing $300dollar sound systems can barely produce 50watt in total (and that is LOUD), and the cheap chinese systems claim to produce 2000Watt or more but in PEAKs, not sustained RMS.

I think it's the same case for the airplane.

[aardy76]

I was assigned to the 33TFW QA at the time. This was our F-15C which was deployed to south Florida. It was a new F-15, under 150 airframe hours. The G meter read about 12.6G, but the OWS (Overload Warning System)registered numbers in the mid to high teens on various areas of the airframe. Back in '77 or '78 (before OWS) when I was with the 1st TFW, a F-15A pulled and estimated 16G's. The wings were warped, though not visibly. But when measured it was very evident. The wings were replaced.

[piloti337]

I talked to someone who knows the guy and heard the story first hand. The guys name was Barney Shaw and he pulled 12.3gs on the recovery. At 15Gs, the wings would've come off.

[ATFSCrash]

Piloti337: If your claims are true about Barney Shaw then thank you. Understand why I am skeptical of some self-proclaimed expert like yourself that has repeatedly stuck your foot in your mouth. I think 12.3 G on the official textbook record is plausible. However I still suspect it is a lowball figure. That sounds more like the short but sustained value, it may not even be the peak sustained value, let alone the instantaneous peak.

[ATFSCrash]

Piloti337: Do you know what the G frame rate of the flight recorder of this particular F-15 is? Some of the flight recorders I have looked at have are very slow such as 1 fps; thusly the peak sustained G that is recorded could be slightly low and the peak instantaneous G could be entirely missed. I suspect my question has just elevated your level of understanding and have humbled your ignorant criticisms of me. However since the typical troll has no honor I expect no apology.

[Inklebonker1]

@ATFSCrash its funny, an air force mechanic has been telling me this story before i ever saw it on the web so i know your telling the truth.

[piloti337]

I've never seen an EM diagram on an Eagle, but it is highly unlikely that the aircraft pulled 15-20G's in this video, and flat out impossible that it came anywhere near 30-40. 9-10 max is more realistic in this scenario.

[ATFSCrash]

Piloti337: You don't know what you're talking about. The amount of G's an aircraft can handle depends on several factors, since this was a training mission there is a good chance it had a light load out and that the aircraft could tolerate more than it normally could. The normal recommended G or stress level is well below immediate structural failure. This is real life, not a video game. The recommended levels are low to prevent fatigue and long-term failures. I have mentioned this before.

[piloti337]

Post the proof then. Where did you even get those asinine numbers in the first place? You're correct, the normal G limit (which is not a "recommended G" by the way, but a Dash -1 ops limit) has some safety factor built in - let's say 1.2, 1.3. So let's say that the limit is now 11-12 Gs. Even at that G, you're talking about severe structural damage/failures and a very likely GLOC event. At 15-20, you're talking about a 1.7-2.2 margin of safety in an aircraft that has many hours on it....

[ATFSCrash]

Piloti337: There is usually quite a bit of difference between the recommended level, the point of the failures start to occur, and the point that the failures become catastrophic. The amount that an aircraft and take can depend on a lot of factors like few level and other load out. The formulas are rather complex and the statistics probably somewhat classified; that's why some of the newer aircraft like the F-22 automatically use a computer to limit the levels based on strain/calculated stress

[piloti337]

And you're claiming it's sustained for 2-3 seconds (which aerodynamically is unlikely, even at 9Gs at that airspeed). The 30-40G comment is a bit more absurd, but going back to your safety factor, that's 300-400%! BTW, fuel level and load out decrease from the standard 9.0. The book 9.0 is the max G, adding fuel/stores generally brings that down. For example, a Viper is 7.0 with fuel in the tanks, and 9.0 tanks dry (no other stores). My comments are based on real experience, not a game.

[ATFSCrash]

Piloti337: You need to learn the difference between instantaneous and sustained G. As I said my figures were estimates/speculation/guesses. Whereas you have used harder language and hard figures which you have repeatedly retracted after being confronted with the facts and continuing your education. The more of an education that you get the more that youll find that youre hypocritically jumping to conclusions and making a fool of yourself.

[ATFSCrash]

Piloti337: This is real life; not Hollyweird or one of your arcade video games. Wings do not snap off at an exact given one dimensional value. As I said and as engineers say: it depends on the variables. Loadout; weight, airframe life, construction variations (IE longerons), loadout and configuration, temperature, etc. often there is damage or de-formation before a total catastrophic failure. Some of your comments and claims are absurd.

[ATFSCrash]

Piloti337: Like a typical troll, flamer, con, bigot; you have taken my words out of context and attacked me. That is not my fault, it is yours, you only have yourself to blame. You need to learn to work on your reading comprehension and to be less prejudice. It seems you could use some anger management discipline/training as well.

[Glashawk]

Solo Thunderbird I hope to God you're not a real pilot. Pilot's can withstand GZ axis forces of 10gs for several seconds. The Skeletal and soft tissues of the body can take it without a problem. The only thing that suffers is cardiovascular. The pilot/occupant will most likely be unconcious but will be well within a "survivable" limit. Open an aeromedical manual sometime before you make those comments. Nice vid ATFS.

[Familyguy098]

the current record is 75 G's cuz of an f18 pilot hitting the ground belly first at 500mph and survived.

[ATFSCrash]

Familyguy098: You don't seem to understand the gist of all of what I said: I wouldn't be surprised if there were several pilots survive crashes that were in excess of 75 Gs; except like F-16 pilot you mentioned they probably had significant injuries such as spinal column injuries. The thing that's different about this F-15 video is it did not crash, nor did the pilot have any significant injuries.

[SoLoThunDerBird]

It's physically impossible for the human body to withstand 10 g's for over 1 second.. The only thing On this video that has to do with the G force is the Pilot trying to breathe as he recovers the plane.. idiot.. dont try and act like you know what your talking about.. 40 gs my fucking ass

[ATFSCrash]

SoLoThunDerBird: It's ironic and entertaining when a troll like yourself tries to flame others and proves himself to be a hateful ignorant "fucking" stupid "ass" your own post. You have no clue what you are talking about. You have proven you have no credibility.

[ATFSCrash]

SoLoThunDerBird: In August 1958 Navy Reserve officer Carter C. Collins did more than 20 Gs for a record 54 seconds with no injuries. Dr. John Paul Stapp survived over 45 Gs for short duration on the geewhiz sled. Some skydivers and car crash victims have survived impacts estimated to be over 200Gs.

[Familyguy098]

there was an f18 crash at an airshow where the pilot was supposed to do a back flip and underestimated his alt. and smacked into the ground at 500mph and survived at 75 G's.

[ATFSCrash]

Familyguy098: As I have said before there have been car crash in automobile accidents were where people have probably survived in the neighborhood of 200 G; however with significant injury. They're probably have been plane crashes in excess of 75 Gs where passengers have survived however they probably are not as well known or involve such a celebrity. I seem to remember that that F-18 pilot had significant injuries such as spinal injuries.

[jwalsh8]

ANNNNDDDDD general ejection G force is about 15 so yeh i agree with u atfscrash

[raysot]

...that was my commanding officer. Colonel Caduck (Spelling may elude me now...) I was in the Marines in El Toro, CA. at the time serving under MAG-11 (I forget the AIMD designation.. maybe it was HAMS-11 or HAMS12)

Essentially, I watched him auger in. He disappeared below the crowd line and instead of seeing the F/A-18 recover from the inside loop, we saw a cloud of dust.

[nexus1g]

Great video.

Solo, you realize that with no blood supply, the brain can continue to be cognitive for up to 15 seconds?

ATFSCrash: I was watching his speed and it looked like it went from nearly 700 kts before the pull to 250 kts after the tape restarted. I'd have peed blood. From what I could see of the HUD he was at 8-9Gs before we lost the tape. Can you confirm what I'm seeing on the HUD?

[Spanduer90]

40gs would have killed him as well as the plane

[ATFSCrash]

Spanduer90: False. If you would read the video description and video comments you would have known that. I suggest looking the work of Dr. John Paul Stapp. Some people have survived instantaneous/impulse exceeding 40 Gs with no significant injury. Some people have managed survive over an estimated 200 Gs instantaneous/impulse.

[ATFSCrash]

Spanduer90: At 40 Gs there is significant risk of spinal injury and major organ damage in a sitting position; however survival may be possible depending on the individual and the conditions, with the right person under the right conditions there might be no significant injury. For instance a healthy person in good shape in the prone position on a contoured mattress would likely not have any injury at 40 G impulse.

[ATFSCrash]

Spanduer90: From what I understand; Essentially the aircraft did not survive because of the extent of the damage, but it survived well enough that it was able to limp back and land safely even though it was severely damaged and considered a right off

[OSUChamberflyer]

This has been an interesting series of posts. A comment on Spatial Disorientation(SD). SD is, in easy terms, not knowing where the ground is in relationship to the body. SD can occur anytime our feet leave the earth's surface, flying or diving. Instruments help us maintain orientation and aid in recovery from SD. Instruments CANNOT prevent SD. The pilot's response to SD is affected by his stress level (fatigue, hunger, dehydration, loss of situational awareness). I hope this helps to clarify.

[OSUChamberflyer]

This has been an interesting series of posts, but some clarification is needed. Spatial disorientation is, in easy terms, not knowing where the ground is in relation to your body. This can occur anytime our feet leave the surface of the earth. Flying or diving has caused, and will continue to cause loss of life. Flight instruments aid in prevention and recovery, but WILL NOT prevent spatial disorientation. It is also affected by the pilots individual stress levels. (sleep, hydration, illness)

[texasfathead]

12/11/2007 GEN John Corley Air Combat Command commander LANGLEY AIR FORCE BASE, Va. (ACCNS) -- Defending our nation is serious and often dangerous business. We continually balance mission demands with acceptable risk and achieve spectacular results. Earlier this week I determined that one of the key pieces of armor that protects our nation's skies currently puts our aircrew at unacceptable risk. As a result, I directed a stand-down of all F-15A-D model aircraft until further notice.

[ATFSCrash]

It's a sad state that our military is in. For many decades of neglect are now combined with lots of hours on sorties with heavier than normal loadout. So as a result there are many aircraft that are starting to see critical issues and are in desperate need of replacement or life extensions. The F-16, F-18, P-3s and F-15s all have critical issues such as fatigue.

[texasfathead]

ATFSCrash TRUE yes, Marry Christmas-:}

[texasfathead]

Nov 3 /07 Six weeks after an F-15C Eagle broke apart while on a training flight,The wing came off, the Air Combat Command has gounded all F-15s except Es.

[ATFSCrash]

The funding for the military has been neglected for so long and now with the shortage of funding and supplies things are getting critical especially with liberals playing partisan politics and trying to piggyback pork on spending bills.

[texasfathead]

I like the song, who is it?

[ATFSCrash]

A parody of John Denver's; leaving on a jet plane.

Heavin' On A Jet Plane - The Barron Knights

[wrh61]

I doubt he was interested in how many G's at the time...Heck I can get disorientation at 1g straight/ level....Damn instruments ...they always lie, lie,,,lie....

Good old C. Stapp: quite a guy, he had a pair..

[Appclypse]

Not only a testament to the plane but also the extrem pressures the human body can with stand and survive. 40Gs being the highest, that should kill anyone! Is that really true?

[Hexify]

That is a different type of G that those experienced in flight. Common mistake.

[fullmetaldiego]

O___OU no wonder why he sounds worried...i felt sorta worried just watching...but he's a really good pilot cuz he made it back in one piece :D imma rate with 5 stars cuz it made me feel some emotions lol :D greetings from El Salvador....

[i wish i was a pilot ._.'']

[theyellowrose1977]

hmm oh well thanks anyway

[ATFSCrash]

IF I am seeing right 2500' is the lowest point on the HUD. Was likely lower when the tape was pulled off the head of the recorder from Gs.

[theyellowrose1977]

what was his ALT when he pulled up i couldint see the HUD very well

[ATFSCrash]

theyellowrose1977: I can't quite make it out either; I might if I took a good look at higher resolution. I think he was a second or two from buying the farm

[Pessoul]

....

a big "LOL"

30 to 40 Gs. as if a pilot could handle that.. max is like 9-10 Gs..

plus, spatial disorientation is no more possible in modern aircrafts because they have something called the "horizon cadran"..

learn aviation, then come back and try again to post something that would impress us.. but for now, you missed;)

[ATFSCrash]

Pessoul : You ought to get an education. ;) Look up Col. Stapp. You also might want to study how much Gs are pulled in accidents such as car wrecks or skydiving accidents where people have survived. People have survived somewhere in the neighborhood of an estimated 200 Gs. Let us know when you learn something about aviation. ;)

[Pessoul]

youve been put right back in place, its understandable that you try for a couple of days to save the face, but those are facts kid.. so its over ;)

[ATFSCrash]

Pessoul: If you had bothered to put as much effort and time into a real education as you do into flaming and hate, you might not be an imbecile. As you are now, you are just an imbecilic fool as your own posts have repeatedly proven. If you bothered to look in the video description before you posted or did a quick search you wouldn't have made such a fool of yourself.

[Pessoul]

oh an dlast thig : we will not compare our education level, that would not be good for you :D

[ATFSCrash]

Pessoul: If you have an education it must be a lousy one, or you cheated your way through. If you have it must have been liberal arts in a liberal school. Because when it comes to science and reason, you are lacking. You are a fool and a flamer, you attack with ignorant claims. Your own posts make a fool of yourself. You obviously haven't heard of Dr. John Stapp and "Gee Whiz". A leading airspace physiologist that vastly improved flight safety and popularized Murphy's law.

[ATFSCrash]

Pessoul: You have no credibility. Get an education, grow up, and learn not to hate. You are younger by age, education and wisdom.

[ATFSCrash]

Pessoul: You are pathetic, morally bankrupt and dangerous to try representing yourself as an aviation authority; your bluffing could fool someone and kill them. Go back to your pokemon kid. If you knew about aviation physiology and safety you should have know about Dr. John Stapp, frangible seats that have saved pilots spines and lives at 20-40 Gs by collapsing and that spatial disorientation is still a killer in modern aircraft.

[ATFSCrash]

Pessoul "spatial disorientation is no more possible in modern aircrafts"

False: Statistics show that between 5-10% of all general aviation accidents can be attributed to spatial disorientation. Your disire to flame, is proveing how ingonorant and hatefull you are. You are making a fool of yourself. I guess you don't care about losing your credibility because you have none. Kid

[ysblueangels]

Thank you for knowing what you're talking about.

[RickyboyH]

Its possible for humans to sustain more than 9-10 G's for a sustained periods.. During the re-entry from earth orbit during the Mercury space missions in the 50's the astronauts went as high as 16G's..(before the G's started to decline).. so get your facts right.

[stevel666]

An even bigger 'LOL.' SD has nothing to do with aircraft instrumentation. It has everything to do with the design of the inner ear and lack of visual reference. A human will often believe what he/she feels no matter what instruments say. IIRC the record for surviving instantaneous momentary g loading is about 180.

[ATFSCrash]

stevel666 "SD has nothing to do with aircraft instrumentation."

False. The proper use and attention and knowledge of instrumentation can prevent spatial disorientation. Cockpit, instrument & control layout can contribute to SD; head, eye movements and body movements can contribute to SD. Also how you scan the instruments can be instrumental in preventing SD.

[stevel666]

Firstly, my comment was in reply to 'Pessoul.' Anyway, my comment is true. :-p It's a condition of the vestibular system. Been there, got the t-shirt. And yes I'm talking about the root cause of SD, which is what I thought everyone else was on about :-)

[ATFSCrash]

stevel666: I think you're thinking that the root of SD is inner ear or and visual; as it usually is; however instruments play a key role in trying to prevent spatial disorientation. Suggest seeing my videos on spatial disorientation. It starts off with a bunch of text debunking the JFK Jr. conspiracy nuts, however the core of the video is a very good video on spatial disorientation. Spatial (aka Spacial) Disorientation & JFK JR Part 1 of 2

[saybya]

An F-15 can pull 14 G's. After that, It breaks apart. He did not pull 20 G's for 3 seconds. There is no way.

[ATFSCrash]

saybya: You are assuming the G. limit is a constant. As I have said before, the G limit is not a constant it is dependent on the aircraft total weight which also isn't a constant. You also seem to be assuming that aircraft suddenly totally break up at a particular G load. Often the breakup is a matter of duration, fatigue. The aircraft well exceeded did the limits was essentially destroyed but still was flyable, thanks to a little luck.

[ATFSCrash]

saybya: It was a training mission so the fuel was likely light and the weapons load out was likely light or empty. Therefore it could pull higher G then normally. This is the real thing not some cheesy flight Sim that doesn't consider all the parameters/variables. Like engineers say it depends on the variables. Like I said I don't know what the exact Gs was it could be as high as 20, it could be more.

[ATFSCrash]

saybya: You sound like a flight simmer, that is reading things out of a book, or off a specification sheet; you don't seem to be a pilot or engineer. A pilot or engineer should know that the G limit is not a constant; it is dependent on several variables. A pilot and engineer also should know that there is usually an overdesign (margin of error) to exceed limits.

[saybya]

If the engineer says the max is 15 G's, then what would 30 G's do to the plane?

[ATFSCrash]

saybya "If the engineer says the max is 15 G's"

Then I wouldn't think much of that engineer. Like I said the maximum numbers of G's is not a constant, there are other variables like weight distribution and duration. Like engineers say "it depends on the variables".

[ATFSCrash]

saybya "If the engineer says the max is 15 G's"

I suspect if engineer was quoted as saying such a thing as you claim, that you didn't read the fine print, (footnotes). Or that his statement was paraphrased or coerced in such a way that he was pressured (or sloppily reckless) to shorten and simplify things for mass layman consumption, thereby sacrificing accuracy.

[nais26]

Wow! That would be scary! Good job that he recovered it.

[aandc2005]

I think the aircraft can handle over 15g's....

[YatesyMU]

Good freaking lord... I don't think they teach that kind of AGSM...

[bifff15]

An Eagle comes apart at around 12 G's. This incident occured during ACM (USAF lingo for two versus one). Fighting above the water on hazy days can be challenging regardless of your branch of service.

[strikeeagle62]

where did you get your information from. the F-15 does not come apart at 12Gs...it all depends on the fuel on board the weapons ect.....neg Gs are the worse. and we(USAF) had Eagles pull more than 10Gs on several ocassions and after an extentive inspect,, the worse we had was STUCK screws galore(SHEETMETAL) we got stuck screws.. so you info is faulty.... this aircraft can can alot of stress

[TheNewWave27]

Pathetic! He sounds like an Air Force weenie that ruined a perfectly good airplane. Maybe his "dickey" got some sweat on it, and then he lost situational awareness.

Navy pilots do air combat over the water every day of the year. Standard Operating Procedures for real men.

[syklonus]

Yeah.. navy pilots, but since when have F-15 been a navy plane? This whole situation happened during dogfight. Thats when you have to be aware of the location of your enemy and constantly look at your metres and HUD. This (mixed up with stress and high G manuevers) is something what can be too much for human being due to the limitation of your brain.

[faabound]

Hey new wave you must be the only navy pilot with 10,000 flight hours at 23 years old. LOL

[donteatusweloveyou]

dude

[nimrob]

survivors of skydiving accidents and car accidents are very rare..so rare that the exposure to this Gs is a question on luck, not surival.

[wrh61]

Col. Stapp AF and M.D. did a great deal of high g testing in rocket sleds for medical evaluation. His thought was since he was an M.D. he could better evaluate the effects of high g on pilots and the like . I believe his consistent record is 40g. He repeatly did this as a part of his AF career. He didn't look very good after a run and had temp blindness . Amazing guy and pioneer.

[zeroyon04]

I remember that he tore most of the muscles and tissuse in his face, and also gave himself 2 black eyes from a negative g test he did. A stong man.

[DCCENTRAL1FOX]

word.....

[wdwmike]

hey I've survived sky diving accidents myself from a low turn, but what dose sky dicing accidents and car accidents have to do with a combat plane doing manuvers with high levals of G forces?

[nimrob]

reduce the speed to reduce the G force. The pilot didnt feel the force?? 40g??? nobody survive...

[ATFSCrash]

People have survived short impulses of Gs in the neighborhood of 150-200 Gs. There have been some people that have survived skydiving accidents and car accidents that have well exceeded 100 Gs.

He definitely felt the force, that is why he was breathing so hard and he sounded stressed.

[Garundak]

the rekord is 178 by a F1 driver.

[wrh61]

Wrong!

[castlekid08]

garundak is right david purley holds the record.

[zeroyon04]

The F-15 has had an entire wing blown off and still landed safely, and has also survived 40G's and still landed safely? The F-15 is a TANK!

[ATFSCrash]

If it did pull 40 Gs it was just for a fraction of a second, otherwise it would have ripped the aircraft apart. It definitely exceeded the recommended limits by a wide margin. I am not sure how many Gs it pulled exactly, that is why I am interested on seeing if I could find documentation of the Gs parameters of the flight. I also would love to have photographs or video of aircraft afterwards. I would love to see those crinkled wings.