@TheRationalizer my view on this is that different people have different feelings. we are not fully aware of the womans circumstance as we weren't there. there are many variables we aren't't considering when looking at this... for example, perhaps she might of liked the prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Maybe she felt like she needed companionship and love in such a time? we really don't know, but to judge would be idiotic...
Greeting TheRationalizer. I've a few issues I would like to point out in your video arguments. First of all, can you confirm whether you're an expert in matters related to the Quran?! There are some important issues you need to understand my brother. Islam has has a historical, scientific and periodic theme to it. If you're not a scholar, you're not in a position to answer the posed questions accurately without bias and ignorance. Better still, why don't you get a reputable scholar to answer.
@allymohaz Lol I've heard this so many times! How convenient that he should need a scholar to interpret the book, I'm sure the scholar will be totally unbiased and not even consider using taqiyya at all *cough*.
If the Qur'an is the perfect book, then why can't anyone read it without interpretations from others? Better yet, why didn't god just have the foresight to get Mo to translate it into the languages that would be the most popular today ie. English, Chinese, Spanish etc?
@kopperspock To answer your first question on why you need a scholar is simple: The Quran has some chapters that refer to historical events or contexts that you and I may not understand if you directly read those chapters and interpret. Granted not all chapters are like that, some are common sense you can directly translate. You're second question on translation: Ask any language expert, you lose meaning if you translate. It's in Arabic as a form of future preservation and change.
@kopperspock Just to conclude what I've said below, the Quran is in those languages you mentioned: English, Chinese, etc but still you always lose something if you translate, i.e. human error will definitely occur and meaning changes. Anyway, the translation to other languages are permitted but the main reference is the original book itself. I don't want to impose or force you against your will but please feel free and listen to this recitation I've posted above and see the difference.
@allymohaz But this is what I mean. The very fact that translating from Arabic to English etc. causes problems, when surely god knew that English/Chinese/Spanish would be the main languages of the world when the internet enabled the world to open up,
means god either lacked foresight, or the book was man-made. I'm not trying to go out of my way to insult Islam, I simply see logical fallacies in it all over the place. Anything that shies away from criticism doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.
@kopperspock You will be surprised to hear that the Quran permits constructive debates that are truthful and peaceful, it has never forbidden it. Those who shy away from constructive criticism are basically ignorant of their religion. There is no problem with translating the Quran to other languages. I wish I could give you an English version right now. Islam learnt from Christianity that translating without having a reference is a big blunder. No insult to Christianity is intended here.
I'm glad that you hold such open-minded views, but you cannot deny that there are MANY in positions of power in Islam who don't believe in such freedoms of discussion and expression (and within Christianity as well of course)?
How does an open-minded Muslim go about confronting those within Islam who wish to silence discussion though? That is an important question that moderate Muslims need to have the courage to answer.
@kopperspock Moderate muslims?! Are you a moderate agnostic? Or a moderate POM? Islam is Islam and muslims are muslims. We don't need to conform to your standards in order to be classified as civilised.
#2 Islam is under siege by tyrants and illiterate hypocrites. Muslims have lost the values which helped Islam to become so successful in its beginning. We had leaders more concerned with the people's welfare and we had a government which was just even to non-muslims.
@jstsurreal POM? It is irrelevant whether I'm a moderate agnostic; there aren't any fundamentalist agnostics calling for the death of unbelievers. I never said you need to conform, I'm using a common term.
If Islam is Islam and muslims are muslims, I assume you mean following every word of the qur'an and having every country become like Saudi Arabia where women aren't even allowed to drive? Where a woman needs 4 male witnesses in order to convince those in power that she was raped?
@kopperspock People amongst us may 'call' for death, but people among you have 'caused' the death of over 1 million thus far.
Don't imply that we are terrorists: by doing that you make your victim appear as the culprit; most shameful. If Muslims followed every word of the Quran, they would be the most just, morally superior and warrior like people on the face of the earth. Saudi Arabia is superficially Islamic, they are mostly delusional pretenders, they are nothing like their distant ancestors.
@jstsurreal Why do you say 'call'? Are you inferring that when people call for the death of apostates they're just joking?
'people among you have 'caused' the death of over 1 million thus far.'
- How utterly presumptious. You have no idea where I'm from. I didn't support the war in Iraq and I abhor the murder of innocents (and no by innocents I don't just mean in the Islamic sense of 'believers', but any civilians, regardless of creed).
You are deflecting. The issue is Islam, not the west...
@kopperspock I didn't attack you. When i say among you, it means in your cultural vicinity i.e West. Obviously you are not from the middle east. My presumptions were right nonetheless. The issue is the West, not Islam. What you are seeing now is a reaction, not unprovoked aggression. Example, do you see Muslims calling for the destruction of Chinese? No. Why??? Because the Chinese sure aint Muslims. So don't tell me this hatred stems from our religion, it is a reaction to Roman (west) oppression
@jstsurreal 'The West' is a pointlessly vague notion. For example the US and Denmark are vastly different from each other with regards to religion & politics.
Regardless, the issue IS NOT the West, it is Islam. Read the video title. If you want to discuss The West, go to another video.
Under Sharia, non-Muslims would be subject to a religious tax/'jizya', wouldn't be able to practice their faith in public/be allowed to build places of worship, and would be 2nd class citizens...Sound fair?!?
@kopperspock You know about the Jizya. Then you would also know that the Jizya imposed is 1/3rd of what the average person gets taxed today. You would also know that it does not apply to women or the elderly even if they had their own businesses. You would also know that Christians and Jews were allowed to practice freely, and the Jews in particular enjoyed much freedom, whilst fleeing from European persecution.
@jstsurreal I never implied you were, you're using a straw man argument, putting words in my mouth. I was implying SOME fundamentalist Muslims are terrorists due to their twisted (and indeed often literal) interpretation of Islam.
If Muslims followed every word of the Qur'an, apostates & adulterers would be murdered, raped women would need four male witnesses to prove her claim, women would be subjugated, non-believers (at the very least) would be taxed.
@kopperspock From the nature of your accusations i can tell you've undertaken no personal research nor contemplation about Islam. Your knowledge is not a product of your own thoughts, but an imitation of Geert Wilders', Robert Spencers' rhetoric (or any other fool of the like).
So tell me, if the situation was reversed, and you were in my shoes, would you bother arguing with such a man?
@jstsurreal I have nothing against Muslims, just as I have nothing against Christians/Jews. I do however know that Islam, with regards to non-Muslims, is grossly UNjust, IMmoral & UNfair.
I can provide proof from the Qur'an itself if you want.
Oh and please don't suggest that I don't know enough about Islam. I know more than you if you think it is a religion of morality.
What moral faith commands that apostates should be murdered in cold blood? Will you ignore this question, or deflect again?
@kopperspock Then why were non-muslims in Jerusalem, Syria, Egypt allowed their own legal systems? Do you allow that in the West today? No. Not even to the native owners of the land. As for apostasy, the Arabic word for it is more similar to treason: leaving your faith and joining the enemy to conspire against Islam. Treason is a death penalty in every country which still has capital punishment. If you merely change your faith, then there is no compulsion in religion.
@Niemtol Then this discussion finally ends here, i've done what i can, and if you simply "conclude" it be a waste of time, well im not going to waste mine either by replying, bye
@Niemtol XD The vast majority of scientists didnt even look into it.
and i didnt say i was talkin about maths, i was talkin about 5+2, well you know what lets leave that aside,
i wanna talk about MISINTERPRETATION, with that you are just proving me right. I have the right interpretation because it makes more sense, not because i am faithfull to my religion, watch this: /watch?v=n8EJJLxDpw8&feature=related
all of this fools claims are very easily disapproved, with common sense
@Niemtol yea so, with that logic you could "prove" even the most obvious scientific facts wrong, so what is the actual truth? the interpretation of 5+2=8 or =7 ? ofcourse it's 7 because the majority of people support 7, in other words the interpretation which has the majority on its side, is true. And the majority is on the side of islam(23%). Islam grows with an unbelieveble rate, and it was able to convince famous scientists. Not my prob, that you and this baldhead weren't convinced
@Niemtol you see, interpretation, is possible for anything, lets get back to the 2+5 issue, we could mathematically explain to the moron that the answer is 7, but then he would say "thats just the way you interpreted it, i do it my own way, the real way"
There are christians who claim the world was made 6000 years ago, despite seeing skeletons over millions of years old
you see with your logic you could disprove ANYTHING, even the world being spherical, just cuz u "interpreted" diffrent
@Niemtol It's not clear? well I don't see how you can call a book that converts millions into it's teachings every month, unclear. It was clear to some of the worlds most famous biologist, astronomists. It was clear to millions of christians and jews, etc
And it actually is easy to discern, just read my previous comments, but I dont have all the answers, I'm no quran expert nor a scientist.
Anyway I wanna end this discussion, it was fun while it lasted, bye
@Niemtol first of all, just because the quran's meaning can be interpreted doesn't mean it's false. Any moron could interpret 2+5 equals 8, because in handwriting when you overlap the 5 and 2, it makes an 8, while we all know the answer is 7
you can interpret anything into anything. The quran is infallible to those who are guided, to those who posses intelligence. The quran speaks of this. And the verse where it says its "infallible" is also interpreted different by you.
@Niemtol misunderstanding of the quran is mentioned and warned about in the quran itself, I've seen al these so called "errors" and I've seen that they make no sense if you investigate, wether a human receives guidance from God is up to God to decide. You could instantly convert like Abu Bakar, he was the first male muslim, and converted without asking questions, or you could remain stubborn like the faraoh, who refused god despite having seen 10 miracles.
What about the Islamic laws of inheritance and the massive scandal that is ʿiwal? According to 4:7, 4:12 and 4:176, the property of the of a dead Muslim is to be split among their living relatives in specific shares that total to 112.5% of the inheritance! Islamic scholars invented some law called ʿiwal (عِوَل) to cover for this simple mathematical mistake.
just like [3:7] says: Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning.
you are one of those people
about the beating women thing:
Are you saying we shouldnt beat women even if they start flirting with other men, sleeping with other men? in extreme cases you just have to beat them
[41:12] Thus, He completed the seven universes in two days, and set up the laws for every universe. And we adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and placed guards around it. Such is the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.
notice how it says AND, not THEN, which doesnt mean the stars we're necesarily formed LATER
[41:11] Then He turned to the sky, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."
HOW DO YOU KNOW GOD ISNT TALKING ABOUT THE ATMOSPHERE? surely it matches science first
this is just your perspective of the quran,or a misleading trainslation, some arabic words have like 6 diffrent meanings
[67:5] We adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and guarded its borders with projectiles against the devils; we prepared for them a retribution in Hell.
second one: God can make anything out of anything, if he wanted humans to be made out of wood, he would have done so, you cant argue on these things
7:40 Wouldn't you agree, that if the quran REALLY originated from God, it would say something like: "No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms." - ?
7:50 not only that, it's taken almost ad verbatim from the Greeks yet Muslims are proud to present such facts as only revealed in the Quran and not known about before circa 700 AD.
@TheRationalizer well she was raped at 9 after they fattened her up, I think that puberty was never even considered. In this case it was girth they waited for not puberty, and Mohammed clearly outlines every detail of women's minstrel cycle and allows for girls that have yet to get a period a waiting period of 3 month after divorce to be married again, so I am not sure anyone can make a case that she wasn't or that he did not also outline the rules for 2nd marriage before puberty.
The problem you need to be aware of is that when you say "puberty" it means something than what Shariah describes it as. A female can be considered post-pubescent in Islam if she is at least 9 years old and has had a wet dream - even though the average age of menstruation might be 14 or older.
That's why I always say "Too young to have started their periods" - it is not culturally subjective :)
@TheRationalizer the actual translation is that the Prophet married her(aisha) when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years and since he is the example for Muslims to follow in the Suna and since sahih al bokary is also considered revelation by most main stream scholars= You decide...
Your ill-informed, or you didn't do your research before making this pointless video. The challenge of producing x amount of surat equal or better to the Qur'an got easier as verses were revealed by Rasulullah saws, (for example the challenge went from 10 surahs, to 3 to 1).
@TheRationalizer Again, you might want to double check that... The order in which the verses were revealed is not the order in which they are listed in the text. Surah 17 was the 50th Surah revealed (which challenged one to create the full Qur'an). Surah 11, was the 52nd Surah revealed (produce 10 chapters). Finally, Surah 2 was the 87th Surah revealed (produce 1 chapter). As to why Allah made the challenge easier for Non-Muslims- I would have thought that would be pretty obvious.
3 days ago I demonstrated that you are wrong, the surah challenge went from 1 to 10 and then back down to 1. I am interested in reading your thoughts on that.
..the subject, and then hopefully I can have a convo with u about it. I am in no position to have a skype discussion with u at the moment, as I would b like amateur with no knowledge. I will hopefully get back to u on the subject in the future, but until then, PEACE B ON U
And if Allah touches you with hurt, there is nonewho can remove it but He, and if He intends any good for you,there is none who can repel His Favour whichHe causes it to reach whomsoever of His slaves He wills. And He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful. Yunus 107. This is the attitude of Muslims, and this is the reason we should not get too depressed.
@TheRationalizer Well I just though I'd show u the Muslim attitude, and show u why we don't get ourselves too down and depressed, as u did when your baby past away. Our belief is that if ALLAH intends something, then it will happen, and we always look at the bright side of the situation. An example is, if a baby passes on, then we can say, it is in a better life, and in heaven. I also wanted to show u why it is wrong to get so depressed as to not being able to judge right from wrong.
It's not a case of deciding to get depressed, it happens regardless of your intentions.
When someone loses a close member of their family such as a father or a child it affects them mentally in a way they cannot control, and very often in a way they are unaware of until some time later.
Do you not agree that in cases of bereavement the moral thing to do is to NOT expect the person to make important decisions such as marriage/sex/etc?
@TheRationalizer Well if the case involves a female captive, who has lost her family, then it would b better to give her security, and a home, instead of letting her b thrown around and abused, and tortured, like others do with their captives, don't u think? Again, it all depends on her consent, and without that nothing can happen. We r in no position to judge how quickly others get over their sadness.
If she needs it then I agree, but do you agree that in order to give her these things you do not need to have sex with her, and if after experiencing her father being violently killed only days before the only moral thing to do is to NOT have sex with her until some point in the future when she is much more likely to be in a suitable state of mind?
@TheRationalizer "Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the..
A man used to sell sex with his slaves to other men, this verse says not to prostitute your slaves to other men and is nothing to do with what we are discussing.
Now please answer my question.
Do you think the moral thing to do is to wait for a longer period of time to ensure she is of sound mind to offer her consent? Or to think "What the hell?" and go for it anyway?
@TheRationalizer Well there's no harm in trying your luck, is there? You can try to ask for sex, but again, it all depends on the Woman, and her consent. I don't know if it's morally wrong or not, to do it within days, but I can say with confidence, that even if Muslims did do it within a few days, u can bet your life that it wasn't rape. You can reply by saying "Oh, but she wasn't of sound mind", but I will ask, how do u know? You r assuming this. Listen, it does not matter how many days..
You seem to be struggling to understand the scenario, so let me try another.
Pretend for a moment that sex outside of marriage is permitted as long as both parties give their consent. If you met a girl in a nightclub and she was VERY drunk, could barely stand or talk, and as she stumbled towards you she said "Let's have sex" - would it be moral of you to accept, knowing that by tomorrow she wouldn't even remember it?
@TheRationalizer But Mr R, there is a big difference between being drunk, and not remembering anything, to seen your family killed, but still remembering. What u fail to realize, is that although this woman might hate u, she is still vulnerable, and she is alone, and has no one, and nowhere to go. It would b in her interests to marry u, and live in safety, instead of being thrown around. Again, I will say, u can't force yourself onto her, and so I c no problem.
What is the difference between someone who gives her consent because she is drunk, and someone who gives her consent because she is in a state of shock?
In what way is one taking advantage but the other is not?
@TheRationalizer The one that is drunk is out of her senses, but the one that is in shock is still thinking straight. Listen, if the Muslim went up to the captive, whether it was 2 days or 2 years, and he asked her for sex, but she refused, then tell me, what could he do? Is he allowed to rape her? You r clutching at straws if u think the time makes a difference. If, like u say, she saw her father killed, and someone approached her soon a few days after, then she would have been angry, and..
..refused. Then tell me, what could the Muslim do? He could do nothing. I mean, it's not like he raped her. The Muslim asked her, and u make it out to b the worst thing ever. Now, it does not matter, if he asked her within 5 mins, or 5 days, but the word here is ASK, and nothing more. I can compare this with other wars, including the ongoing ones, and show u the difference.
You evidently know absolutely nothing about emotional shock, do you? :)
I don't think we are going to get anywhere with this, your morality in my eyes is deficient. How about we discuss something like evolution instead? You said you thought it was false - do you fancy a skype chat on the subject?
@TheRationalizer I hope u know I'm being sincere, and not messing u around. Whatever I feel, I will tell u, and not lie about things. I'm not a liar, and I don't like liars. I feel your a genuine guy as well. I am going to b honest with u, and tell u I know very little about evolution. I have never studied it, and the little I have heard about it, I thought was illogical. I have questions like, what r emotions, and how did they come about? I don't believe we came from apes. Anyway, I will study
It's okay, until a couple of years ago I knew nothing of evolution either. If you want a skype chat I'll give you a layman's introduction. I can also recommend a few interesting books too if you wish?
..goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),"Noble Verse 24:33. Now shouldn't this put the whole discussion to rest? You've got to b rational about this, and realize that slaves/captives were, and still r, a part of war. The way Islam deals with captives is better than anybody. Did u know that slaves can request their freedom also, as the verse clearly shows?
>Now shouldn't this put the whole discussion to rest?
You just keep talking about the Quran, I am asking you for YOUR opinion.
Do you think that the guy waits before having sex with the woman is more decent than the guy who has sex with her only 7 days after she experiences the violent killing of her father?
..past. As long as the Woman was not abused, and was consenting, then I c no problem. You don't know whether she was mentally ready or not. You r going on assumptions. Now you have killed her father in battle, but in your eyes, what u did was good, and for the right reasons. She has lost her family, and is vulnerable. You make her feel comfortable. You take good care of her, and her needs. You even wed her, to elevate her status. As long as there is no abuse, then I c no problem
You talk about nor being able to create anything from fire. Well I could argue that GOD can make what he wants to, and that the fire of jinns might b of a different kind to the one in this world. This proves nothing. The Qur'an could have said jinns r made from sky and sea, and we would think it was possible.
He asked you a straightforward question. Why don't you address it properly? Do you think any SANE women would be mentally prepared to have sex within such a short period? And does it say one should marry a slave before having sex?
"The slave can b freed as-well. "
Why didn't Allah/Prophet abolish slavery? Didn't Muhammad own slaves and sell free slaves whose owners died?
I am not asking you about a captive that claims they do not want to have sex. I am asking a very simple question.
If a woman consents to sex and/or marriage within only a few days of witnessing her father being violently killed - do you think there is a good possibility she is in no fit mental state to give that consent, and do you think that any half decent man would suggest they wait?
@TheRationalizer Ok, I'm gonna answer u crystal clearly. It probably isn't OK for her to consent, and she probably isn't in a fit state of mind, but how many times do I have to tell u, she doesn't have to, and nobody can do anything about it. The tafsirs r mostly right, but most were written when the scholars didn't have much knowledge about certain things, and we r only figuring out them things today. Listen, Vague is the word u used in the video, and so, I used it to describe the unbelievers..
You don't have to keep telling me that she does not have to consent, I am not talking about cases where women do NOT consent, so please do stop repeating it.
Now, you have agreed that it is very probable she is not in a fit state of mind to consent. Do you also agree that any man that would take such a consent after only a few days is acting immorally?
..The tafsir scholars r only human, and mistakes and errors r inevitable from every human, but my meaning was that we believers think it is the truth. Islam was the start of abolishing the slave trade. The prophet said that freeing a slave was one of the greatest things in the sight of GOD, even if 1 had to purchase that slave first. Islamic slaves were more like helpers than slaves. I agree, some Muslims might have taken advantage, but that is the individuals fault. I can't say her state of...
..is mental with confidence. I mean, like I said, there can b circumstances, and other factors. Would the man b acting immorally, well I can't say. I mean, if her whole family is gone, and she has nobody, then the man might b acting morally to protect her. Listen mate, the girl has no family now anyway, right? I'm not saying it's the best thing to do, but sometimes it could b necessary. Whatever happens, u could bet your life, that the Muslims wont rape the woman.
I am not even talking about men taking advantage of women.
If a woman is in a state of shock after seeing her father violently murdered then even SHE is unable to know whether or not she is in a fit state to give her consent - therefore the ONLY moral thing to do is to decline her offer of sex (even if accompanied by marriage) and wait for a longer period of time to elapse in order to give her time to mentally heal.
@TheRationalizer Well if it's accompanied by marriage, then that is even more secure for the woman who has lost her family. It all depends on the circumstances my friend, and that is I can say about this. I will agree, it might b a little fast, but this girl has lost her whole family, and has nowhere to go. Just because she might b married to someone of the other side, does not necessarily mean consummation, or anything else, but it means protection, and respect.
Do you think that it would be moral to marry her in order to support her, but not to consummate the marriage until quite some time in the future when it is far more likely that she is in a fit state of mind to consent?
And do you agree that any man that accepts her consent after only a week is taking advantage, and is acting immorally?
@TheRationalizer I disagree. There could b so many factors and circumstances that make the man take the consent, and even if there aren't, Islam say's that Women r not to b forced into any kind of sexual relation, and I ask u to find me a source that tells of women being forced. Now, every situation is different, and we can't say for sure if a Woman is mental or not. I don't know about hr state of mind. Yes, her family has been killed, but their gone now, and she has to move on. I can say this..
I thought we had already agreed that after experiencing the harrowing mental trauma of your father being violently killed, after only a few days no person can even know if they themself are in a fit mental state to make important decisions such as this?
@TheRationalizer But Mr rationalizer, that is what I'm saying, how can we b certain if a person is in a fit mental state or not. You r making assumptions on something u have no experiences of. Yes, most cases could b like what u say, but how can u say that all the cases will b the exact same, and that the women will feel the same. I reserve judgment on the triangle, and will get back to u LOL.
I am saying that after only a few days nearly every woman in the world would be in some kind of emotional turmoil after experiencing the violent killing of her father, even a woman who hated her father would.
Many people in such a state rarely know what kind of mental state they are in until some time later when they look back and realise well after the event.
Knowing that this is the case, it is reasonable to expect people NOT to accept consent, do you not agree?
@TheRationalizer She will not b forced to do anything against her will, and so I c no problem here. If she consents, then that is her decision, and we can't judge her mental state. If the man agree's to the consent, then like I said, it could b for protection, and to elavate her status from being a captive to a wife.
If god made a shape with 4 sides it would have 4 angles. A triangle is defined as "a shape with 3 angles".
This task is an impossible one. Not because it requires lots of power in order to achieve (like picking up a mountain) but because it is logically impossible to achieve.
@TheRationalizer You said if a man takes consent after a week, then he is taking advantage.i say NO. That is another assumption. He could feel compassion for this woman, who has lost her family, regardless of the circumstances of how they died. The main point here is, nobody can force the Woman to consent, and nobody can have sex with her without her approval, or in other words rape her
To feel compassion for someone could you have had an unconsummated marriage for a period of time and then waited to consummate it in the future, or MUST you have sex with her too?
@TheRationalizer Depends on how the Woman reacts to u. Now, most women will not want to consummate with the person, but she might see something in u, or she might see your side of the story, and feel what u did was justified, even if it was killing her father. Again. I will say, Women can't b forced into anything, and so, if she has sex, then it is her choice. Would she have been in a good state of mind? Well, that depends on the Woman and circumstances. We can't assume nada
@TheRationalizer Well that's her fault then LOL. She should refuse and hold back. If she did this, then no Muslim would ever b able to touch her, and if he did, he would get capital punishment. If she advances, then she probably has come around, and realized that she has no one left, and this is the best option for her.
My wife and I lost a baby years ago. I thought I was absolutely fine, if you had asked me back then I would have said "Don't worry, everything is okay" - but then 6 months later I just fell on the floor as a complete emotional mess. Soon afterwards I realised that the entire time I had been having a mental breakdown and not even realised it.
So, if someone had taken advantage of me during those 6 months would it have been my own fault?
@TheRationalizer I'm sorry to hear that, but u should never get yourself so down, as to let others take advantage of u. That would b your fault then. I mean, grieving is a part of Human nature, but to get so depressed, that u can't c if it's night or day, then the consequences r yours. I don't mean to b rude mate, and if I come across like that, then I sincerely apologise
@TheRationalizer I don't know what your getting at. I mean, compare this with other armies, or religions, and c the difference. Would they let the woman captive have consent? Would they look after her? I highly doubt it. There r so many coalition soldiers who have raped Muslim women. Did they care for her consent? Your missing the big picture here. We r commanded to look after out captives like nobody else
Please answer my question. If I had given my consent to something significant within 1 week of this happening would you have said it was my own fault for doing it, or would you say that someone took advantage of me during a vulnerable state?
You say the Qur'an is vague. Well I would call this another reason why it's the truth. I mean, if Muhammad was false, and was copying known science, then he would have been clear about it, wouldn't he? We believe the world is a test, and my thought is, that if the Qur'an was so clear, then there would b no need for this test, and we would all b Muslims.
Oh, it's only vague for unbelievers? So that means if I kind a consensus amongst the tafsirs on a specific verse then I am looking at a fact, seeing as the Quran is perfectly clear to them as they are Muslims + learned scholars and in the case of Ibn Abbas also a 7th century Arabic speaking companion of Muhammad?
So the Quran is vague to unbelievers? In which case, how can its lack of clarity be considered proof if you have to believe it is true before you see the proof that it is true?
You should drop the idea that its vagueness is proof of divine origin, it is merely proof that it is vague :)
..including the big dogs today (The western coalition), treat their female captives with respect? Do they treat their female captives with respect? I highly doubt it mate. I have heard numerous stories of female captive being viciously raped by the Americans, and other soldiers, even probably Muslim soldiers, who go against Islam, and the Qur'an.
@TheRationalizer No, but it is not okay to rape, or have sex in Islam. This is a major sin, to torture the captive, and rape her against her will. The slave is automatically free, if u happened to have sex with her.
Imagine an army has just killed all the male members of a woman's community, including her own father. How many days minimum do you think she needs before you could consider her to be of sound mind in order to consent to having sex with a man from that army?
@TheRationalizer I don't know mate, but what I do know is that if she never came round, then the Muslims can't force her, or rape her. Like I said, it would b a major sin.
I am just after a rough guess. For example, would you say that if 5 minutes after her father was murdered you saw her consenting to have sex with a member of the army that killed her father do you think you would suspect she was in shock/grieving and in no fit mental state to give that consent?
@TheRationalizer First of all, she would never consent that soon, and second, no Muslim in his right mind would ask her to have sex with him 5 minutes after war. What u fail to realize, is that it is not a forced rule on us, that we must have sex with slaves. You probably have the picture of sex with all of the slaves after every battle, don't u?
I am trying to get a figure from you. So 5 minutes obviously was a silly example :) What about 30 days, would that be too soon for a woman to be considered mentally fit to have sex with a man from an army that had killed her father?
@TheRationalizer Listen rationalizer, that is entirely upto the woman. Like I said, nowhere does the Qur'an force us to have sex with female captive, and on the contrary, commands us to look after them, and their needs.
Of course it is up to the woman, but you must also take into consideration that she has just gone through the trauma of seeing people being killed + having her own father killed too. Obviously when taking consent from such a person you have to take into account that she might not be in a fit mental state to offer that consent.
You dismissed 5 minutes as too soon (obviously she would have to be ill.) So do you think you would be happy to accept consent after 30 days, or is that still too soon?
@TheRationalizer Mr Rationalizer, that is entirely up to the Woman, and up to the circumstances. Neither me, or u, are in any position to judge her mental state. My point is this, we r not some sex crazed lunatics, and the Qur'an does not force us to have sexual relations with the captives.
@TheRationalizer My point also is this, that captives r a inevitable part of every war, and that Muslims r commanded to treat theirs better than everybody, and r not told to have sex with them, but r told that it is not forbidden , but only with permission.
I already know that, we are talking about the "with permission" part.
After experiencing her father being killed would you agree that a woman giving permission for sex with a member of the invading army 5 minutes later should be considered not of sound mind to give that permission?
@TheRationalizer My answer would b to give me any examples of when a Muslim army had sex with the captives after 5 mins? You r talking hypothetically now, and I know that u hate hypothesis yourself, yeah? What did u want the Qur'an to say? You can have sex with the captives, but only after 5 minutes, and then they r yours LOL.
I didn't say it happened, I am trying to ascertain your position. You obviously agree that 5 minutes (for example) is too soon right? You agree that experiencing the killing of your father would cause emotional distress and her consent should not be taken so soon....don't you?
Stop being so evasive, it's a simple question, I just want your opinion :)
@TheRationalizer I will answer your last post, and then fly away, and continue our discussion another time. Of course 5 mins is too soon, but if u can't give any examples, then that must tell u something about what the Qur'an means, and how the Muslims obeyed the teachings. Again, u fail to realize, or u do realize, and r choosing to ignore the fact, that we r not told to have sex with the captives, but we r commanded to look after them, which is more that what I can say for other armies.
Obviously 5 minutes is too soon, anyone accepting that consent would clearly be taking advantage.
What do you think about 14 days? Is that long enough for a woman to get over the killing of her father enough to give consent to have sex with a member of the invading army or do you think the violent death of her father is too traumatic for her to get over so soon?
@TheRationalizer OK, this is the last post LOL. Listen, if she never gets over it, and I'm sure alot of them didn't, then Islam, and the Qur'an is clear on the matter, and that is Muslims can't touch her, or force her to do anything, but look after her. Now, let's compare this with other armies who, forget 5 mins, rape them as soon as they capture them.
I wonder, why do you keep answering a question I did not ask?
If a woman had experienced the violent death of her father do you think that after only 14 days you would expect her to be in a fit mental state to give consent for sex, or do you think that anyone who would accept such consent would be immoral?
@TheRationalizer If u read my answer mr rationalizer, then u would c that I did answer your question, and then some. I don't know the answer, and the reason is simple. The woman might have a change of heart, and realize that it was actually her father who was on the side of evil, and might embrace Islam. This is just one of the reasons I could give u. I don't know if it's immoral, and it might be. It all depends on the circumstances. Now u tell me, where does the Qur'an command us to rape them?
@TheRationalizer Depends on the circumstances matey LOL. Anyway, we shall continue this another day. Keep doing your honest research, and keep being a good and honest human being.
The point is, that the person being offered the consent should not take it because the probability that a woman offering it after only 14 days of her father being violently killed is not in a fit state of mind to offer it.
Do you not think that the decent thing to do would be for the man to reject the offer until a greater period of time has elapsed, just to ensure she is of sound mind?
@TheRationalizer OK, so I will completely agree with u, that the female captive after seeing her father or husband killed in battle, would not want to have sex with the killers. The answer is simple, she shouldn't have sex then, and she is not forced to have sex. How many times do I need to stress this point? Again, I will ask, do u know of any Muslim soldiers forcing captives to have sex after 5 mins or 14 days? Don't b hypothetical. The Qur'an is clear, and it say's to look after the captives
I can't comprehend why you do not understand my question.
Do you think she is in a suitable mental state to make such a decision only 14 days after seeing her father violently killed? It's a similar question to "If a very drunk woman offers you sex, is she in a fit state to consent?"
Do you think that a decent man would reject an offer of sex after such a short period (14 days)?
@TheRationalizer Oh, so now u r putting all your effort into the Womens mental state. I can't comprehend why you do not understand my answer. I will repeat, we r not forced to even touch the women, let alone have intercourse with them. It is not binding on Muslims to have sex with the captives. Why r u acting like sex is inevitable? The slave can b freed as-well.
@FULF1Z "Why r u acting like sex is inevitable? The slave can b freed as-well. "
If Islam was so good and lovey dovey, why wasn't slave trade banned by Allah? Muhammad did sell freed slaves for money didn't he?
His question is this: do you think any sane women would be in a stable enough mental state to have sex soon after witnessing the violent slaughter of their husbands? Why don't you address it directly?
@FULF1Z "Why r u acting like sex is inevitable? The slave can b freed as-well. "
If Islam was so good and lovey dovey, why wasn't slave trade banned by Allah? Muhammad did sell freed slaves for money didn't he?
His question is this: do you think any sane women would be in a stable enough mental state to have sex soon after witnessing the violent slaughter of their husbands? Why don't you address it directly?
@FULF1Z "Why r u acting like sex is inevitable? The slave can b freed as-well. "
If Islam was so good and lovey dovey, why wasn't slave trade banned by Allah? Muhammad did sell freed slaves for money didn't he?
His question is this: do you think any sane women would be in a stable enough mental state to have sex soon after witnessing the violent slaughter of their husbands? Why don't you address it directly?
@FULF1Z "Why r u acting like sex is inevitable? The slave can b freed as-well. "
If Islam was so good and lovey dovey, why wasn't slave trade banned by Allah? Muhammad did sell freed slaves for money didn't he?
His question is this: do you think any sane women would be in a stable enough mental state to have sex soon after witnessing the violent slaughter of their husbands? Why don't you address it directly?
@FULF1Z "Why r u acting like sex is inevitable? The slave can b freed as-well. "
If Islam was so good and lovey dovey, why wasn't slave trade banned by Allah? Muhammad did sell freed slaves for money didn't he?
His question is this: do you think any sane women would be in a stable enough mental state to have sex soon after witnessing the violent slaughter of their husbands? Why don't you address it directly?
That has been my point consistently that I am trying to get you to address. We can drop slavery and use marriage if you like?
If a man was part of an army that killed lots of men in another village, and after that battle he took a woman as war booty, and after only 7 days of her father being violently killed by that army he accepted her consent to marry him and have sex with him, would you agree her consent should not YET be taken? Is he immoral for accepting it during such a distressing time?
If the captive never wants to have sex, then nobody can have sex with them against their will. It doesn't matter if it's 5 mins, or 20 years. If she say's no, then no, and u would b a major sinner if u did have sex, and it would b classed as rape. Tell me, why did the prophet not write "And have sex with what your right hand possesses at any time, even if they r unwilling, they have no choice in the matter"? I couldn't post, and thought u blocked me, but it was youtube maintenance at work
@TheRationalizer my view on this is that different people have different feelings. we are not fully aware of the womans circumstance as we weren't there. there are many variables we aren't't considering when looking at this... for example, perhaps she might of liked the prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Maybe she felt like she needed companionship and love in such a time? we really don't know, but to judge would be idiotic...
Ehtishaam786 15 hours ago
I can produce an aya just as good as any in the Quran. [Sura74:30] Over it is nineteen.
Ok, my aya: "Under them is eighteen."
mine is just as good as Sura74:30 eh?
SuperDonster 2 weeks ago
I love your mustache.
ru2118 2 weeks ago in playlist More videos from TheRationalizer
؟؟ Do you know Osama bin Laden or not
DMARSkoOod 3 weeks ago in playlist مزيد من مقاطع الفيديو من TheRationalizer
and how adam made from dirt ?? if you don't believe of this how can you believe jinn made from fire
unnamed1407 1 month ago
@Masoudun It's just plain awesome. You can't deny.
MegaSuperMang 1 month ago
Greeting TheRationalizer. I've a few issues I would like to point out in your video arguments. First of all, can you confirm whether you're an expert in matters related to the Quran?! There are some important issues you need to understand my brother. Islam has has a historical, scientific and periodic theme to it. If you're not a scholar, you're not in a position to answer the posed questions accurately without bias and ignorance. Better still, why don't you get a reputable scholar to answer.
allymohaz 2 months ago
@allymohaz Lol I've heard this so many times! How convenient that he should need a scholar to interpret the book, I'm sure the scholar will be totally unbiased and not even consider using taqiyya at all *cough*.
If the Qur'an is the perfect book, then why can't anyone read it without interpretations from others? Better yet, why didn't god just have the foresight to get Mo to translate it into the languages that would be the most popular today ie. English, Chinese, Spanish etc?
kopperspock 1 month ago
@kopperspock To answer your first question on why you need a scholar is simple: The Quran has some chapters that refer to historical events or contexts that you and I may not understand if you directly read those chapters and interpret. Granted not all chapters are like that, some are common sense you can directly translate. You're second question on translation: Ask any language expert, you lose meaning if you translate. It's in Arabic as a form of future preservation and change.
allymohaz 1 month ago
@kopperspock Just to conclude what I've said below, the Quran is in those languages you mentioned: English, Chinese, etc but still you always lose something if you translate, i.e. human error will definitely occur and meaning changes. Anyway, the translation to other languages are permitted but the main reference is the original book itself. I don't want to impose or force you against your will but please feel free and listen to this recitation I've posted above and see the difference.
allymohaz 1 month ago
@kopperspock The recitation: watch?v=PD6Ov8JHTfk
allymohaz 1 month ago
@allymohaz But this is what I mean. The very fact that translating from Arabic to English etc. causes problems, when surely god knew that English/Chinese/Spanish would be the main languages of the world when the internet enabled the world to open up,
means god either lacked foresight, or the book was man-made. I'm not trying to go out of my way to insult Islam, I simply see logical fallacies in it all over the place. Anything that shies away from criticism doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.
kopperspock 1 month ago
@kopperspock You will be surprised to hear that the Quran permits constructive debates that are truthful and peaceful, it has never forbidden it. Those who shy away from constructive criticism are basically ignorant of their religion. There is no problem with translating the Quran to other languages. I wish I could give you an English version right now. Islam learnt from Christianity that translating without having a reference is a big blunder. No insult to Christianity is intended here.
allymohaz 1 month ago
@allymohaz Don't worry I'm not Christian, I'm neutral - agnostic :).
I'm glad that you hold such open-minded views, but you cannot deny that there are MANY in positions of power in Islam who don't believe in such freedoms of discussion and expression (and within Christianity as well of course)?
How does an open-minded Muslim go about confronting those within Islam who wish to silence discussion though? That is an important question that moderate Muslims need to have the courage to answer.
kopperspock 1 month ago
@kopperspock Moderate muslims?! Are you a moderate agnostic? Or a moderate POM? Islam is Islam and muslims are muslims. We don't need to conform to your standards in order to be classified as civilised.
#2 Islam is under siege by tyrants and illiterate hypocrites. Muslims have lost the values which helped Islam to become so successful in its beginning. We had leaders more concerned with the people's welfare and we had a government which was just even to non-muslims.
jstsurreal 1 month ago
@jstsurreal POM? It is irrelevant whether I'm a moderate agnostic; there aren't any fundamentalist agnostics calling for the death of unbelievers. I never said you need to conform, I'm using a common term.
If Islam is Islam and muslims are muslims, I assume you mean following every word of the qur'an and having every country become like Saudi Arabia where women aren't even allowed to drive? Where a woman needs 4 male witnesses in order to convince those in power that she was raped?
kopperspock 1 month ago
@kopperspock People amongst us may 'call' for death, but people among you have 'caused' the death of over 1 million thus far.
Don't imply that we are terrorists: by doing that you make your victim appear as the culprit; most shameful. If Muslims followed every word of the Quran, they would be the most just, morally superior and warrior like people on the face of the earth. Saudi Arabia is superficially Islamic, they are mostly delusional pretenders, they are nothing like their distant ancestors.
jstsurreal 1 month ago
@jstsurreal Why do you say 'call'? Are you inferring that when people call for the death of apostates they're just joking?
'people among you have 'caused' the death of over 1 million thus far.'
- How utterly presumptious. You have no idea where I'm from. I didn't support the war in Iraq and I abhor the murder of innocents (and no by innocents I don't just mean in the Islamic sense of 'believers', but any civilians, regardless of creed).
You are deflecting. The issue is Islam, not the west...
kopperspock 1 month ago
@kopperspock I didn't attack you. When i say among you, it means in your cultural vicinity i.e West. Obviously you are not from the middle east. My presumptions were right nonetheless. The issue is the West, not Islam. What you are seeing now is a reaction, not unprovoked aggression. Example, do you see Muslims calling for the destruction of Chinese? No. Why??? Because the Chinese sure aint Muslims. So don't tell me this hatred stems from our religion, it is a reaction to Roman (west) oppression
jstsurreal 1 month ago
@jstsurreal 'The West' is a pointlessly vague notion. For example the US and Denmark are vastly different from each other with regards to religion & politics.
Regardless, the issue IS NOT the West, it is Islam. Read the video title. If you want to discuss The West, go to another video.
Under Sharia, non-Muslims would be subject to a religious tax/'jizya', wouldn't be able to practice their faith in public/be allowed to build places of worship, and would be 2nd class citizens...Sound fair?!?
kopperspock 1 month ago
@kopperspock You know about the Jizya. Then you would also know that the Jizya imposed is 1/3rd of what the average person gets taxed today. You would also know that it does not apply to women or the elderly even if they had their own businesses. You would also know that Christians and Jews were allowed to practice freely, and the Jews in particular enjoyed much freedom, whilst fleeing from European persecution.
jstsurreal 1 month ago
@jstsurreal I never implied you were, you're using a straw man argument, putting words in my mouth. I was implying SOME fundamentalist Muslims are terrorists due to their twisted (and indeed often literal) interpretation of Islam.
If Muslims followed every word of the Qur'an, apostates & adulterers would be murdered, raped women would need four male witnesses to prove her claim, women would be subjugated, non-believers (at the very least) would be taxed.
This is morally superior!?
kopperspock 1 month ago
@kopperspock From the nature of your accusations i can tell you've undertaken no personal research nor contemplation about Islam. Your knowledge is not a product of your own thoughts, but an imitation of Geert Wilders', Robert Spencers' rhetoric (or any other fool of the like).
So tell me, if the situation was reversed, and you were in my shoes, would you bother arguing with such a man?
jstsurreal 1 month ago
@jstsurreal I have nothing against Muslims, just as I have nothing against Christians/Jews. I do however know that Islam, with regards to non-Muslims, is grossly UNjust, IMmoral & UNfair.
I can provide proof from the Qur'an itself if you want.
Oh and please don't suggest that I don't know enough about Islam. I know more than you if you think it is a religion of morality.
What moral faith commands that apostates should be murdered in cold blood? Will you ignore this question, or deflect again?
kopperspock 1 month ago
@kopperspock Then why were non-muslims in Jerusalem, Syria, Egypt allowed their own legal systems? Do you allow that in the West today? No. Not even to the native owners of the land. As for apostasy, the Arabic word for it is more similar to treason: leaving your faith and joining the enemy to conspire against Islam. Treason is a death penalty in every country which still has capital punishment. If you merely change your faith, then there is no compulsion in religion.
jstsurreal 1 month ago
He is right the quran needs improvement.
WinterLights7 2 months ago
Im still trying to rationalize this guy's mustache
Masoudun 2 months ago
@Niemtol Then this discussion finally ends here, i've done what i can, and if you simply "conclude" it be a waste of time, well im not going to waste mine either by replying, bye
0PercentFear 2 months ago
@Niemtol XD The vast majority of scientists didnt even look into it.
and i didnt say i was talkin about maths, i was talkin about 5+2, well you know what lets leave that aside,
i wanna talk about MISINTERPRETATION, with that you are just proving me right. I have the right interpretation because it makes more sense, not because i am faithfull to my religion, watch this: /watch?v=n8EJJLxDpw8&feature=related
all of this fools claims are very easily disapproved, with common sense
0PercentFear 2 months ago
@Niemtol
> Because if you're talking about mathematics, the answer is 7
Except the number 7 in Arabic culture apparently also means "several" :)
TheRationalizer 2 months ago
@Niemtol yea so, with that logic you could "prove" even the most obvious scientific facts wrong, so what is the actual truth? the interpretation of 5+2=8 or =7 ? ofcourse it's 7 because the majority of people support 7, in other words the interpretation which has the majority on its side, is true. And the majority is on the side of islam(23%). Islam grows with an unbelieveble rate, and it was able to convince famous scientists. Not my prob, that you and this baldhead weren't convinced
0PercentFear 2 months ago
@Niemtol you see, interpretation, is possible for anything, lets get back to the 2+5 issue, we could mathematically explain to the moron that the answer is 7, but then he would say "thats just the way you interpreted it, i do it my own way, the real way"
There are christians who claim the world was made 6000 years ago, despite seeing skeletons over millions of years old
you see with your logic you could disprove ANYTHING, even the world being spherical, just cuz u "interpreted" diffrent
0PercentFear 2 months ago
@Niemtol It's not clear? well I don't see how you can call a book that converts millions into it's teachings every month, unclear. It was clear to some of the worlds most famous biologist, astronomists. It was clear to millions of christians and jews, etc
And it actually is easy to discern, just read my previous comments, but I dont have all the answers, I'm no quran expert nor a scientist.
Anyway I wanna end this discussion, it was fun while it lasted, bye
0PercentFear 3 months ago
@Niemtol first of all, just because the quran's meaning can be interpreted doesn't mean it's false. Any moron could interpret 2+5 equals 8, because in handwriting when you overlap the 5 and 2, it makes an 8, while we all know the answer is 7
you can interpret anything into anything. The quran is infallible to those who are guided, to those who posses intelligence. The quran speaks of this. And the verse where it says its "infallible" is also interpreted different by you.
0PercentFear 3 months ago
@Niemtol misunderstanding of the quran is mentioned and warned about in the quran itself, I've seen al these so called "errors" and I've seen that they make no sense if you investigate, wether a human receives guidance from God is up to God to decide. You could instantly convert like Abu Bakar, he was the first male muslim, and converted without asking questions, or you could remain stubborn like the faraoh, who refused god despite having seen 10 miracles.
0PercentFear 3 months ago
What about the Islamic laws of inheritance and the massive scandal that is ʿiwal? According to 4:7, 4:12 and 4:176, the property of the of a dead Muslim is to be split among their living relatives in specific shares that total to 112.5% of the inheritance! Islamic scholars invented some law called ʿiwal (عِوَل) to cover for this simple mathematical mistake.
SaudiPseudonym 3 months ago
the chronological issue of creation I already explained
and your own meaning of the quran go on and on and on...
0PercentFear 3 months ago
just like [3:7] says: Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning.
you are one of those people
about the beating women thing:
Are you saying we shouldnt beat women even if they start flirting with other men, sleeping with other men? in extreme cases you just have to beat them
0PercentFear 3 months ago
[41:12] Thus, He completed the seven universes in two days, and set up the laws for every universe. And we adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and placed guards around it. Such is the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.
notice how it says AND, not THEN, which doesnt mean the stars we're necesarily formed LATER
0PercentFear 3 months ago
[41:11] Then He turned to the sky, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."
HOW DO YOU KNOW GOD ISNT TALKING ABOUT THE ATMOSPHERE? surely it matches science first
0PercentFear 3 months ago
this is just your perspective of the quran,or a misleading trainslation, some arabic words have like 6 diffrent meanings
[67:5] We adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and guarded its borders with projectiles against the devils; we prepared for them a retribution in Hell.
second one: God can make anything out of anything, if he wanted humans to be made out of wood, he would have done so, you cant argue on these things
0PercentFear 3 months ago
how is it possible that in our day and age people still believe in religious books literally?
revolt1492 3 months ago
7:40 Wouldn't you agree, that if the quran REALLY originated from God, it would say something like: "No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms." - ?
karlmall 4 months ago
It was not at 7:40 but at 7:07. Sorry.
karlmall 4 months ago
at 1:35
its not " the evil ones " in arabic its " Satans "
why did they translate it to " evil ones "
the word Satan in English i suppose have Semitic origin
in arabic " shitan " in in this verse it say " shitan"
they fool people who don't know arabic
they know that using the word satan would seem like arabian nights lolol
mideastatheist 4 months ago
Comment removed
mideastatheist 4 months ago
7:50 not only that, it's taken almost ad verbatim from the Greeks yet Muslims are proud to present such facts as only revealed in the Quran and not known about before circa 700 AD.
Squiglypig 5 months ago
Comment removed
MinutemanUK 5 months ago
Voodoo bollocks again ... I believe Mickey Mouse is real.
Do not try and run peoples lives with you perspectives.
I am an Alien and I smirk at your ability to try and find the God to guide your life.
It is already here.
Celestial mechanics are vast and you trouble yourselves with scriptures and other paraphenalia ..
God does not know everything .. it never could .. but you all hold the key.
You hold the key to fairness, kindness and the ability to see other humans ... I rest my case.
MinutemanUK 5 months ago
@MinutemanUK
Perhaps you should try actually watching the video before forming your opinion?
TheRationalizer 5 months ago 5
@TheRationalizer
I did watch and is a good video.
I was venting spleen about religion in general and after re reading it appears I am having a go at you.
Sorry It was not my intention.
In short religion and mostly Islam I hate with a passion.
MinutemanUK 5 months ago
6:50 it is in fact not forbidden to have sex with pre-puberty girls according to Mohammed. hadith from al Bokari.
alyraly 5 months ago
@alyraly
Sorry, I mis-read your comment.
What is your reference?
TheRationalizer 5 months ago
@TheRationalizer باب تزويج النبى عائشة وقدومها المدينة وبنائه بها ٣٨٩٤ or Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: From Sahih Bukhari, Book 62:
alyraly 5 months ago
@alyraly
I've read the arguments that Aisha was prepubescent because we was permitted to play with dolls etc.
TheRationalizer 5 months ago
@TheRationalizer well she was raped at 9 after they fattened her up, I think that puberty was never even considered. In this case it was girth they waited for not puberty, and Mohammed clearly outlines every detail of women's minstrel cycle and allows for girls that have yet to get a period a waiting period of 3 month after divorce to be married again, so I am not sure anyone can make a case that she wasn't or that he did not also outline the rules for 2nd marriage before puberty.
alyraly 5 months ago
@alyraly
The problem you need to be aware of is that when you say "puberty" it means something than what Shariah describes it as. A female can be considered post-pubescent in Islam if she is at least 9 years old and has had a wet dream - even though the average age of menstruation might be 14 or older.
That's why I always say "Too young to have started their periods" - it is not culturally subjective :)
TheRationalizer 5 months ago
@alyraly
PS: I suspect her hair falling out might have had something to do with the 3 year wait.
TheRationalizer 5 months ago
@TheRationalizer the actual translation is that the Prophet married her(aisha) when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years and since he is the example for Muslims to follow in the Suna and since sahih al bokary is also considered revelation by most main stream scholars= You decide...
alyraly 5 months ago
Your ill-informed, or you didn't do your research before making this pointless video. The challenge of producing x amount of surat equal or better to the Qur'an got easier as verses were revealed by Rasulullah saws, (for example the challenge went from 10 surahs, to 3 to 1).
HarunDanyal 5 months ago
@HarunDanyal
If Allah is all knowing, why didn't Allah know that 1 was sufficient from the start?
Also, if I recall correctly it went 10...1...10
TheRationalizer 5 months ago
@TheRationalizer Again, you might want to double check that... The order in which the verses were revealed is not the order in which they are listed in the text. Surah 17 was the 50th Surah revealed (which challenged one to create the full Qur'an). Surah 11, was the 52nd Surah revealed (produce 10 chapters). Finally, Surah 2 was the 87th Surah revealed (produce 1 chapter). As to why Allah made the challenge easier for Non-Muslims- I would have thought that would be pretty obvious.
HarunDanyal 5 months ago
@HarunDanyal
Double checked...
51st - One Surah (10:38)
52nd - Ten Surahs (11:13)
87th - One Surah (2:23)
It seems Allah was cocky, then later got a bit worried, but then later had his confidence restored. A very human trait, don't you think?
TheRationalizer 5 months ago
@HarunDanyal
3 days ago I demonstrated that you are wrong, the surah challenge went from 1 to 10 and then back down to 1. I am interested in reading your thoughts on that.
TheRationalizer 5 months ago
ًWell researched.
Can't figure out the accent.
Sounds like Yorkshire mixed with Australia with a hint of I don't-know-where
Whocreatedgod 5 months ago
Brilliant :)
Aanthanur 6 months ago
..the subject, and then hopefully I can have a convo with u about it. I am in no position to have a skype discussion with u at the moment, as I would b like amateur with no knowledge. I will hopefully get back to u on the subject in the future, but until then, PEACE B ON U
FULF1Z 6 months ago
Anyway, I gotta go. Chat with ya later mate. PEACE B UPON U
FULF1Z 6 months ago
And if Allah touches you with hurt, there is nonewho can remove it but He, and if He intends any good for you,there is none who can repel His Favour whichHe causes it to reach whomsoever of His slaves He wills. And He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful. Yunus 107. This is the attitude of Muslims, and this is the reason we should not get too depressed.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
I don't see how your comment is relevant to anything we are discussing.
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer Well I just though I'd show u the Muslim attitude, and show u why we don't get ourselves too down and depressed, as u did when your baby past away. Our belief is that if ALLAH intends something, then it will happen, and we always look at the bright side of the situation. An example is, if a baby passes on, then we can say, it is in a better life, and in heaven. I also wanted to show u why it is wrong to get so depressed as to not being able to judge right from wrong.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
It's not a case of deciding to get depressed, it happens regardless of your intentions.
When someone loses a close member of their family such as a father or a child it affects them mentally in a way they cannot control, and very often in a way they are unaware of until some time later.
Do you not agree that in cases of bereavement the moral thing to do is to NOT expect the person to make important decisions such as marriage/sex/etc?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer Well if the case involves a female captive, who has lost her family, then it would b better to give her security, and a home, instead of letting her b thrown around and abused, and tortured, like others do with their captives, don't u think? Again, it all depends on her consent, and without that nothing can happen. We r in no position to judge how quickly others get over their sadness.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
If she needs it then I agree, but do you agree that in order to give her these things you do not need to have sex with her, and if after experiencing her father being violently killed only days before the only moral thing to do is to NOT have sex with her until some point in the future when she is much more likely to be in a suitable state of mind?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer "Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the..
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
A man used to sell sex with his slaves to other men, this verse says not to prostitute your slaves to other men and is nothing to do with what we are discussing.
Now please answer my question.
Do you think the moral thing to do is to wait for a longer period of time to ensure she is of sound mind to offer her consent? Or to think "What the hell?" and go for it anyway?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer Well there's no harm in trying your luck, is there? You can try to ask for sex, but again, it all depends on the Woman, and her consent. I don't know if it's morally wrong or not, to do it within days, but I can say with confidence, that even if Muslims did do it within a few days, u can bet your life that it wasn't rape. You can reply by saying "Oh, but she wasn't of sound mind", but I will ask, how do u know? You r assuming this. Listen, it does not matter how many days..
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
"there's no harm in trying your luck, is there?"
You seem to be struggling to understand the scenario, so let me try another.
Pretend for a moment that sex outside of marriage is permitted as long as both parties give their consent. If you met a girl in a nightclub and she was VERY drunk, could barely stand or talk, and as she stumbled towards you she said "Let's have sex" - would it be moral of you to accept, knowing that by tomorrow she wouldn't even remember it?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer But Mr R, there is a big difference between being drunk, and not remembering anything, to seen your family killed, but still remembering. What u fail to realize, is that although this woman might hate u, she is still vulnerable, and she is alone, and has no one, and nowhere to go. It would b in her interests to marry u, and live in safety, instead of being thrown around. Again, I will say, u can't force yourself onto her, and so I c no problem.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
What is the difference between someone who gives her consent because she is drunk, and someone who gives her consent because she is in a state of shock?
In what way is one taking advantage but the other is not?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer The one that is drunk is out of her senses, but the one that is in shock is still thinking straight. Listen, if the Muslim went up to the captive, whether it was 2 days or 2 years, and he asked her for sex, but she refused, then tell me, what could he do? Is he allowed to rape her? You r clutching at straws if u think the time makes a difference. If, like u say, she saw her father killed, and someone approached her soon a few days after, then she would have been angry, and..
FULF1Z 6 months ago
..refused. Then tell me, what could the Muslim do? He could do nothing. I mean, it's not like he raped her. The Muslim asked her, and u make it out to b the worst thing ever. Now, it does not matter, if he asked her within 5 mins, or 5 days, but the word here is ASK, and nothing more. I can compare this with other wars, including the ongoing ones, and show u the difference.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
You evidently know absolutely nothing about emotional shock, do you? :)
I don't think we are going to get anywhere with this, your morality in my eyes is deficient. How about we discuss something like evolution instead? You said you thought it was false - do you fancy a skype chat on the subject?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer I hope u know I'm being sincere, and not messing u around. Whatever I feel, I will tell u, and not lie about things. I'm not a liar, and I don't like liars. I feel your a genuine guy as well. I am going to b honest with u, and tell u I know very little about evolution. I have never studied it, and the little I have heard about it, I thought was illogical. I have questions like, what r emotions, and how did they come about? I don't believe we came from apes. Anyway, I will study
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
It's okay, until a couple of years ago I knew nothing of evolution either. If you want a skype chat I'll give you a layman's introduction. I can also recommend a few interesting books too if you wish?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
..goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),"Noble Verse 24:33. Now shouldn't this put the whole discussion to rest? You've got to b rational about this, and realize that slaves/captives were, and still r, a part of war. The way Islam deals with captives is better than anybody. Did u know that slaves can request their freedom also, as the verse clearly shows?
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
>Now shouldn't this put the whole discussion to rest?
You just keep talking about the Quran, I am asking you for YOUR opinion.
Do you think that the guy waits before having sex with the woman is more decent than the guy who has sex with her only 7 days after she experiences the violent killing of her father?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
..past. As long as the Woman was not abused, and was consenting, then I c no problem. You don't know whether she was mentally ready or not. You r going on assumptions. Now you have killed her father in battle, but in your eyes, what u did was good, and for the right reasons. She has lost her family, and is vulnerable. You make her feel comfortable. You take good care of her, and her needs. You even wed her, to elevate her status. As long as there is no abuse, then I c no problem
FULF1Z 6 months ago
You talk about nor being able to create anything from fire. Well I could argue that GOD can make what he wants to, and that the fire of jinns might b of a different kind to the one in this world. This proves nothing. The Qur'an could have said jinns r made from sky and sea, and we would think it was possible.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
Can God make a triangle with 4 sides?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
Comment removed
zombieofgod 6 months ago
Comment removed
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
He asked you a straightforward question. Why don't you address it properly? Do you think any SANE women would be mentally prepared to have sex within such a short period? And does it say one should marry a slave before having sex?
"The slave can b freed as-well. "
Why didn't Allah/Prophet abolish slavery? Didn't Muhammad own slaves and sell free slaves whose owners died?
zombieofgod 6 months ago
Comment removed
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
I am not asking you about a captive that claims they do not want to have sex. I am asking a very simple question.
If a woman consents to sex and/or marriage within only a few days of witnessing her father being violently killed - do you think there is a good possibility she is in no fit mental state to give that consent, and do you think that any half decent man would suggest they wait?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer Ok, I'm gonna answer u crystal clearly. It probably isn't OK for her to consent, and she probably isn't in a fit state of mind, but how many times do I have to tell u, she doesn't have to, and nobody can do anything about it. The tafsirs r mostly right, but most were written when the scholars didn't have much knowledge about certain things, and we r only figuring out them things today. Listen, Vague is the word u used in the video, and so, I used it to describe the unbelievers..
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
You don't have to keep telling me that she does not have to consent, I am not talking about cases where women do NOT consent, so please do stop repeating it.
Now, you have agreed that it is very probable she is not in a fit state of mind to consent. Do you also agree that any man that would take such a consent after only a few days is acting immorally?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
..The tafsir scholars r only human, and mistakes and errors r inevitable from every human, but my meaning was that we believers think it is the truth. Islam was the start of abolishing the slave trade. The prophet said that freeing a slave was one of the greatest things in the sight of GOD, even if 1 had to purchase that slave first. Islamic slaves were more like helpers than slaves. I agree, some Muslims might have taken advantage, but that is the individuals fault. I can't say her state of...
FULF1Z 6 months ago
..is mental with confidence. I mean, like I said, there can b circumstances, and other factors. Would the man b acting immorally, well I can't say. I mean, if her whole family is gone, and she has nobody, then the man might b acting morally to protect her. Listen mate, the girl has no family now anyway, right? I'm not saying it's the best thing to do, but sometimes it could b necessary. Whatever happens, u could bet your life, that the Muslims wont rape the woman.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
I am not even talking about men taking advantage of women.
If a woman is in a state of shock after seeing her father violently murdered then even SHE is unable to know whether or not she is in a fit state to give her consent - therefore the ONLY moral thing to do is to decline her offer of sex (even if accompanied by marriage) and wait for a longer period of time to elapse in order to give her time to mentally heal.
Do you agree?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
In case you missed my comment, please search for "even if accompanied by marriage"
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer Well if it's accompanied by marriage, then that is even more secure for the woman who has lost her family. It all depends on the circumstances my friend, and that is I can say about this. I will agree, it might b a little fast, but this girl has lost her whole family, and has nowhere to go. Just because she might b married to someone of the other side, does not necessarily mean consummation, or anything else, but it means protection, and respect.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
Do you think that it would be moral to marry her in order to support her, but not to consummate the marriage until quite some time in the future when it is far more likely that she is in a fit state of mind to consent?
And do you agree that any man that accepts her consent after only a week is taking advantage, and is acting immorally?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer I disagree. There could b so many factors and circumstances that make the man take the consent, and even if there aren't, Islam say's that Women r not to b forced into any kind of sexual relation, and I ask u to find me a source that tells of women being forced. Now, every situation is different, and we can't say for sure if a Woman is mental or not. I don't know about hr state of mind. Yes, her family has been killed, but their gone now, and she has to move on. I can say this..
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
I thought we had already agreed that after experiencing the harrowing mental trauma of your father being violently killed, after only a few days no person can even know if they themself are in a fit mental state to make important decisions such as this?
Did we not agree on that?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer But Mr rationalizer, that is what I'm saying, how can we b certain if a person is in a fit mental state or not. You r making assumptions on something u have no experiences of. Yes, most cases could b like what u say, but how can u say that all the cases will b the exact same, and that the women will feel the same. I reserve judgment on the triangle, and will get back to u LOL.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
I am saying that after only a few days nearly every woman in the world would be in some kind of emotional turmoil after experiencing the violent killing of her father, even a woman who hated her father would.
Many people in such a state rarely know what kind of mental state they are in until some time later when they look back and realise well after the event.
Knowing that this is the case, it is reasonable to expect people NOT to accept consent, do you not agree?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer She will not b forced to do anything against her will, and so I c no problem here. If she consents, then that is her decision, and we can't judge her mental state. If the man agree's to the consent, then like I said, it could b for protection, and to elavate her status from being a captive to a wife.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer 4 sided triangle haha, that's good. I would say yes GOD can. Then again, I believe, and u don't.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
If god made a shape with 4 sides it would have 4 angles. A triangle is defined as "a shape with 3 angles".
This task is an impossible one. Not because it requires lots of power in order to achieve (like picking up a mountain) but because it is logically impossible to achieve.
Do you agree?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer You said if a man takes consent after a week, then he is taking advantage.i say NO. That is another assumption. He could feel compassion for this woman, who has lost her family, regardless of the circumstances of how they died. The main point here is, nobody can force the Woman to consent, and nobody can have sex with her without her approval, or in other words rape her
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
To feel compassion for someone could you have had an unconsummated marriage for a period of time and then waited to consummate it in the future, or MUST you have sex with her too?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer Depends on how the Woman reacts to u. Now, most women will not want to consummate with the person, but she might see something in u, or she might see your side of the story, and feel what u did was justified, even if it was killing her father. Again. I will say, Women can't b forced into anything, and so, if she has sex, then it is her choice. Would she have been in a good state of mind? Well, that depends on the Woman and circumstances. We can't assume nada
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
1: You can "care for" the woman without consummating the marriage
2: The woman is highly probably in a state of shock
3: People in a state of shock are in no fit mental state to consent to important matters
4: There is no NEED for the man to have sex with the woman so early
Do you really not think it is the decent thing for a man to refuse her approaches until she has had time to compose herself mentally?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer Well that's her fault then LOL. She should refuse and hold back. If she did this, then no Muslim would ever b able to touch her, and if he did, he would get capital punishment. If she advances, then she probably has come around, and realized that she has no one left, and this is the best option for her.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
My wife and I lost a baby years ago. I thought I was absolutely fine, if you had asked me back then I would have said "Don't worry, everything is okay" - but then 6 months later I just fell on the floor as a complete emotional mess. Soon afterwards I realised that the entire time I had been having a mental breakdown and not even realised it.
So, if someone had taken advantage of me during those 6 months would it have been my own fault?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer I'm sorry to hear that, but u should never get yourself so down, as to let others take advantage of u. That would b your fault then. I mean, grieving is a part of Human nature, but to get so depressed, that u can't c if it's night or day, then the consequences r yours. I don't mean to b rude mate, and if I come across like that, then I sincerely apologise
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer I don't know what your getting at. I mean, compare this with other armies, or religions, and c the difference. Would they let the woman captive have consent? Would they look after her? I highly doubt it. There r so many coalition soldiers who have raped Muslim women. Did they care for her consent? Your missing the big picture here. We r commanded to look after out captives like nobody else
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
Please answer my question. If I had given my consent to something significant within 1 week of this happening would you have said it was my own fault for doing it, or would you say that someone took advantage of me during a vulnerable state?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
Comment removed
FULF1Z 6 months ago
You say the Qur'an is vague. Well I would call this another reason why it's the truth. I mean, if Muhammad was false, and was copying known science, then he would have been clear about it, wouldn't he? We believe the world is a test, and my thought is, that if the Qur'an was so clear, then there would b no need for this test, and we would all b Muslims.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
Surely you don't think that being vague is proof of truth?
I am a messenger of God, I can prove it
"And it is He who created the great chasm, vast, and you perceive it as impenetrable but He is able to do all things"
I think not :)
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer Vague for the disbeliever. We Muslims think it is the absolute truth, but I'm open for discussions anyway.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
Oh, it's only vague for unbelievers? So that means if I kind a consensus amongst the tafsirs on a specific verse then I am looking at a fact, seeing as the Quran is perfectly clear to them as they are Muslims + learned scholars and in the case of Ibn Abbas also a 7th century Arabic speaking companion of Muhammad?
I'll bet that's not what you are telling me :)
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
So the Quran is vague to unbelievers? In which case, how can its lack of clarity be considered proof if you have to believe it is true before you see the proof that it is true?
You should drop the idea that its vagueness is proof of divine origin, it is merely proof that it is vague :)
TheRationalizer 6 months ago 2
..including the big dogs today (The western coalition), treat their female captives with respect? Do they treat their female captives with respect? I highly doubt it mate. I have heard numerous stories of female captive being viciously raped by the Americans, and other soldiers, even probably Muslim soldiers, who go against Islam, and the Qur'an.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
This behaviour is not sanctioned by the UK population, it is illegal and a soldier can lose his job, pension, and go to prison.
There is a big difference between "It happens" and "It is okay"
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer No, but it is not okay to rape, or have sex in Islam. This is a major sin, to torture the captive, and rape her against her will. The slave is automatically free, if u happened to have sex with her.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
Imagine an army has just killed all the male members of a woman's community, including her own father. How many days minimum do you think she needs before you could consider her to be of sound mind in order to consent to having sex with a man from that army?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer I don't know mate, but what I do know is that if she never came round, then the Muslims can't force her, or rape her. Like I said, it would b a major sin.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
I am just after a rough guess. For example, would you say that if 5 minutes after her father was murdered you saw her consenting to have sex with a member of the army that killed her father do you think you would suspect she was in shock/grieving and in no fit mental state to give that consent?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer First of all, she would never consent that soon, and second, no Muslim in his right mind would ask her to have sex with him 5 minutes after war. What u fail to realize, is that it is not a forced rule on us, that we must have sex with slaves. You probably have the picture of sex with all of the slaves after every battle, don't u?
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
I am trying to get a figure from you. So 5 minutes obviously was a silly example :) What about 30 days, would that be too soon for a woman to be considered mentally fit to have sex with a man from an army that had killed her father?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer Listen rationalizer, that is entirely upto the woman. Like I said, nowhere does the Qur'an force us to have sex with female captive, and on the contrary, commands us to look after them, and their needs.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
Of course it is up to the woman, but you must also take into consideration that she has just gone through the trauma of seeing people being killed + having her own father killed too. Obviously when taking consent from such a person you have to take into account that she might not be in a fit mental state to offer that consent.
You dismissed 5 minutes as too soon (obviously she would have to be ill.) So do you think you would be happy to accept consent after 30 days, or is that still too soon?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer Mr Rationalizer, that is entirely up to the Woman, and up to the circumstances. Neither me, or u, are in any position to judge her mental state. My point is this, we r not some sex crazed lunatics, and the Qur'an does not force us to have sexual relations with the captives.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
You know that 5 minutes is too soon, right?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer My point also is this, that captives r a inevitable part of every war, and that Muslims r commanded to treat theirs better than everybody, and r not told to have sex with them, but r told that it is not forbidden , but only with permission.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
I already know that, we are talking about the "with permission" part.
After experiencing her father being killed would you agree that a woman giving permission for sex with a member of the invading army 5 minutes later should be considered not of sound mind to give that permission?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer My answer would b to give me any examples of when a Muslim army had sex with the captives after 5 mins? You r talking hypothetically now, and I know that u hate hypothesis yourself, yeah? What did u want the Qur'an to say? You can have sex with the captives, but only after 5 minutes, and then they r yours LOL.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
I didn't say it happened, I am trying to ascertain your position. You obviously agree that 5 minutes (for example) is too soon right? You agree that experiencing the killing of your father would cause emotional distress and her consent should not be taken so soon....don't you?
Stop being so evasive, it's a simple question, I just want your opinion :)
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer I will answer your last post, and then fly away, and continue our discussion another time. Of course 5 mins is too soon, but if u can't give any examples, then that must tell u something about what the Qur'an means, and how the Muslims obeyed the teachings. Again, u fail to realize, or u do realize, and r choosing to ignore the fact, that we r not told to have sex with the captives, but we r commanded to look after them, which is more that what I can say for other armies.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
Thank you for answering my question.
Obviously 5 minutes is too soon, anyone accepting that consent would clearly be taking advantage.
What do you think about 14 days? Is that long enough for a woman to get over the killing of her father enough to give consent to have sex with a member of the invading army or do you think the violent death of her father is too traumatic for her to get over so soon?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer OK, this is the last post LOL. Listen, if she never gets over it, and I'm sure alot of them didn't, then Islam, and the Qur'an is clear on the matter, and that is Muslims can't touch her, or force her to do anything, but look after her. Now, let's compare this with other armies who, forget 5 mins, rape them as soon as they capture them.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
I wonder, why do you keep answering a question I did not ask?
If a woman had experienced the violent death of her father do you think that after only 14 days you would expect her to be in a fit mental state to give consent for sex, or do you think that anyone who would accept such consent would be immoral?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer If u read my answer mr rationalizer, then u would c that I did answer your question, and then some. I don't know the answer, and the reason is simple. The woman might have a change of heart, and realize that it was actually her father who was on the side of evil, and might embrace Islam. This is just one of the reasons I could give u. I don't know if it's immoral, and it might be. It all depends on the circumstances. Now u tell me, where does the Qur'an command us to rape them?
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
You think that a woman can get over the violent killing of her father in only 14 days? Really?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer Depends on the circumstances matey LOL. Anyway, we shall continue this another day. Keep doing your honest research, and keep being a good and honest human being.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
The point is, that the person being offered the consent should not take it because the probability that a woman offering it after only 14 days of her father being violently killed is not in a fit state of mind to offer it.
Do you not think that the decent thing to do would be for the man to reject the offer until a greater period of time has elapsed, just to ensure she is of sound mind?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer OK, so I will completely agree with u, that the female captive after seeing her father or husband killed in battle, would not want to have sex with the killers. The answer is simple, she shouldn't have sex then, and she is not forced to have sex. How many times do I need to stress this point? Again, I will ask, do u know of any Muslim soldiers forcing captives to have sex after 5 mins or 14 days? Don't b hypothetical. The Qur'an is clear, and it say's to look after the captives
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z
I can't comprehend why you do not understand my question.
Do you think she is in a suitable mental state to make such a decision only 14 days after seeing her father violently killed? It's a similar question to "If a very drunk woman offers you sex, is she in a fit state to consent?"
Do you think that a decent man would reject an offer of sex after such a short period (14 days)?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
@TheRationalizer Oh, so now u r putting all your effort into the Womens mental state. I can't comprehend why you do not understand my answer. I will repeat, we r not forced to even touch the women, let alone have intercourse with them. It is not binding on Muslims to have sex with the captives. Why r u acting like sex is inevitable? The slave can b freed as-well.
FULF1Z 6 months ago
@FULF1Z "Why r u acting like sex is inevitable? The slave can b freed as-well. "
If Islam was so good and lovey dovey, why wasn't slave trade banned by Allah? Muhammad did sell freed slaves for money didn't he?
His question is this: do you think any sane women would be in a stable enough mental state to have sex soon after witnessing the violent slaughter of their husbands? Why don't you address it directly?
zombieofgod 6 months ago
@FULF1Z "Why r u acting like sex is inevitable? The slave can b freed as-well. "
If Islam was so good and lovey dovey, why wasn't slave trade banned by Allah? Muhammad did sell freed slaves for money didn't he?
His question is this: do you think any sane women would be in a stable enough mental state to have sex soon after witnessing the violent slaughter of their husbands? Why don't you address it directly?
zombieofgod 6 months ago
@FULF1Z "Why r u acting like sex is inevitable? The slave can b freed as-well. "
If Islam was so good and lovey dovey, why wasn't slave trade banned by Allah? Muhammad did sell freed slaves for money didn't he?
His question is this: do you think any sane women would be in a stable enough mental state to have sex soon after witnessing the violent slaughter of their husbands? Why don't you address it directly?
zombieofgod 6 months ago
@FULF1Z "Why r u acting like sex is inevitable? The slave can b freed as-well. "
If Islam was so good and lovey dovey, why wasn't slave trade banned by Allah? Muhammad did sell freed slaves for money didn't he?
His question is this: do you think any sane women would be in a stable enough mental state to have sex soon after witnessing the violent slaughter of their husbands? Why don't you address it directly?
zombieofgod 6 months ago
@FULF1Z "Why r u acting like sex is inevitable? The slave can b freed as-well. "
If Islam was so good and lovey dovey, why wasn't slave trade banned by Allah? Muhammad did sell freed slaves for money didn't he?
His question is this: do you think any sane women would be in a stable enough mental state to have sex soon after witnessing the violent slaughter of their husbands? Why don't you address it directly?
zombieofgod 6 months ago
That has been my point consistently that I am trying to get you to address. We can drop slavery and use marriage if you like?
If a man was part of an army that killed lots of men in another village, and after that battle he took a woman as war booty, and after only 7 days of her father being violently killed by that army he accepted her consent to marry him and have sex with him, would you agree her consent should not YET be taken? Is he immoral for accepting it during such a distressing time?
TheRationalizer 6 months ago
If the captive never wants to have sex, then nobody can have sex with them against their will. It doesn't matter if it's 5 mins, or 20 years. If she say's no, then no, and u would b a major sinner if u did have sex, and it would b classed as rape. Tell me, why did the prophet not write "And have sex with what your right hand possesses at any time, even if they r unwilling, they have no choice in the matter"? I couldn't post, and thought u blocked me, but it was youtube maintenance at work
FULF1Z 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheRationalizer Peace b upon u
FULF1Z 6 months ago