Mormon Racism- An Anthology

[bobbyraejohnson]

Mormons should never be considered Christian unless they change and go by the bible

[Ilegalplayer]

You want to know something lgazzini as a black Mormon I never found comfort in learning what the Mormon scriptures are really preaching about my Black Indian and African race that BLACK SKIN is a CURSE from GOD.These Mormon apologist can say don't listen to our PROPHETS of old but one thing they can never say don't listen to is THE BOOK OF MORMON and PEARL OF GREAT PRICE thats Mormon scriptures and just inside those you can learn that GOD CURSES people for rebelling with BLACK SKIN!THAT IS SICK!

[osirica]

Wait you are Mormon? Or you used to be mormon?

I don't get it. If you are Mormon why are you correctly refuting the Mormon church?

[lgazzini]

llegalplayer and I are NOT Mormons. This former doctrine of the Mormon's is more than enough to keep me from ever considering their church Christian.

[osirica]

I appreciate that. Even if you're not Christian.

I appreciate you indicating that this is not Christian either.

[tsoolo]

if u dont think this church was racist, your an idiot!!

[wakeuppeople80]

i came in contact with one mormon and i saw nothing but racism and sexism and just a general mental imbalance and personnality disorder, i dont know if its fair to say he is that way as a result of his faith, but its alarming that people like him still live among us, its scary and disgusting and someone got to do something about it.

[manaen1lds]

RE: "Where did McConkie actually say that earlier church leaders were wrong? Please give the reference."

.

Here's where I believe he said it. My question to you was how this doesn't say it:

"Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world."

[lgazzini]

manaen1lds- OK, so where in the above statement does he state that Brigham's revelation about black skin being a curse was WRONG. Again, Brigham claimed he knew the mind of god. The McConkie statement has no apology, and does not address the fact the teaching was the design of racist white men. How come your church had to be dragged into what is obviously right? No stupid revelation was needed. The Bible already stated, "Treat no one better than yourself."

[justamusta]

@manaen1lds McConkie's statement is a small step in the right direction. But we need an official declaration or proclamation

Today society takes racial issues seriously. Nothing short of a detailed proclamation or declaration is needed or we will always be viewed as racist

Our inaction on confronting our racism reflects how embarrassingly out of touch we are. The racist label will continue to dog us until we admit, repudiate & apologize for our racism

I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint

[lgazzini]

@justamusta Were Brigham, Young, Joseph Fielding Smith, and Bruce McConkie all wrong about black skin being a curse from God?

[justamusta]

@lgazzini Absolutely without doubt Brigham Young, Joesph F. Smith, McConkie & all other Mormon leaders are wrong about dark skin being a curse from God

I say "are wrong" because it's misleading to say "were wrong" because Mormon racism remains to this day since the Church has never admitted, repudiated & apologized for its many racist statements

It's as if the LDS Church doesn't care or is clueless about how hurtful & damaging these statements are

I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint

[lgazzini]

@justamusta Joseph F. Smith stated this was a doctrine of the church. If he as a prophet was wrong about this, how could one know he right about any of the church's doctrines?

[justamusta]

@lgazzini Excellent point. I agree with you.

I'm Justa: Pro-truth Latter-day Saint

[manaen1lds]

These will help you understand my experiences with black people in the Mormon Church:

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To see the various races in the Mormon Church in south LA / Watts, do a YouTube search on: southwest LA watts branch

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To see the various races in the Mormon Church closer to downtown LA, search on: Adams farewell 20Jan2008

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To see the 6th annual African-American genealogy seminar hosted in the Mormon Church in LA, search on: Discover Your Roots 15Mar2008

[lgazzini]

manaen1lds- jesus gave the command to go to all nations. Peter cerainly started falling back to his old roots and Paul corrected him. Did not need a "new" revelation or a "new" prophet.

I disagree with the "line upon line" ignorance. The idea that God would have to build "concept upon concept" to tell us racism is wrong is about as lame as you can get.

[lgazzini]

Where did McConkie actually say that earlier church leaders were wrong? Please give the reference.

Personally I am not focused on comments by general members of your church. It is your prophets and apostles that get my attention. Why you thing God would declare through his prophets that black skin is a curse on century and deny it the next only shows that your god really is the product of man.

When it comes to race relations, you guys still have decades to catch up.

[manaen1lds]

(continuing preceding comment)

Marvin also shows that most references to black skin in the Bible and The Book of Mormon were metaphorical instead of literal. Search: reaching black saints mormon

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Both presenters share a literal scriptural instance of black and white skin: in Num. 12, Miriam and Aaron gripe about Moses marrying an Ethiopian (v.1), so God's response was "Miriam became leprous, WHITE as snow" (KJV v. 10). It's as if God said, "You like white? Now you're really white!"

[manaen1lds]

BTW, two black Mormons made interesting presentations at a recent conference of LDS scholars.

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Darius Gray showed scriptural instances of black men holding the priesthood and he traced biblical genealogies to show Jesus's black ancestry. Search: Blacks in the Bible Darius to see it.

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Marvin Perkins gives a review of racist comments/teachings with the view that we can't effectively reach out to blacks until we come clean and then shows how to bring more black people into the Church.

[manaen1lds]

RE: "Just when did LDS leaders admit Brigham Young and Joseph Fielding Smith were ever wrong about calling black skin a sign of a curse from God?"

.

As I said before about the comment I shared from Bruce R. McConkie, he does say that the earlier teachings by LDS leaders were wrong about this subject. In fact, my question to you was how does his comment not mean this.

[manaen1lds]

As for Brigham Young, he isn't unique: one of the last commandments Jesus gave the apostles in person was to go to ALL nations (Mt 28:19) but Peter later needed a special vision before realizing that "all" meant "all" (Acts 10). Sometimes God's chosen mouthpieces also learn "line upon line" to overcome their earlier training/prejudices/ignorance. This also was a new realization for me because I'd assumed , like you, that wasn't the case -- this is an example in which *I* learned line upon line.

[manaen1lds]

All/most prophets have limited understanding, which is why later ones are needed. e.g. Noah built an ark but didn't lead God's people into the desert, etc.

.

BTW, I understand and share your yearning for LDS to have been more leaders than followers in uniting the races -- I was there during the 60s and 70s.

[manaen1lds]

(continued from preceding comment)

"It is a new day and a new arrangement, and the Lord has now given the revelation that sheds light out into the world on this subject. As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them. We now do what meridian Israel did when the Lord said the gospel should go to the Gentiles. We forget all the statements that limited the gospel to the house of Israel, and we start going to the Gentiles."

[lgazzini]

manaen1lds- It is always a 'new' day for LDS. Nothing is for certain, even with your 'modern prophets.' Your prophets can contradict each other all they want.  As long as your testimony is based on a feeling, you will believe anything they throw out. One day polygamy is an abomination as spelled out in your Book of Mormon. Then Joseph is caught in the barn with a lady named Fannie. Then, poof, polygamy is OK. God does not lead you, your leaders lead your god.

[manaen1lds]

Igazzini, I believe this has been our sequence here:

1. You included the comment "The LDS leaders never acknowledged that earlier leaders were wrong" @ 3:10 in this video

2. I asked how the quote from Bruce R. McConkie in Aug., 1978 that earlier teachings by LDS leaders were wrong was not "not saying that the old teachings were wrong."

3. You complained that this correction was made.

I don't see how your last comment answered my question.

[lgazzini]

mamaen1lds- Just when did LDS leaders admit Brigham Young and Joseph Fielding Smith were ever wrong about calling black skin a sign of a curse from God? There was never a "correction", only a cover up of a racist theology. Please point out an offical statement acknowleging those men were wrong. I am only complaining that the LDS had to be dragged into 20th century thought. If the leaders were really in touch with God's heart, they would have been leaders and not followers on civil rights.

[lgazzini]

manaen1lds- You say that Brigham Young and George Cannon only had a limited understanding. Wasn't Brigham Young a prophet who claimed to know the mind of God? Is your understanding better than Brigham's? Would you yourself claim to know the "mind of God" the way Brigham did? If Brigham could teach things that are so wrong, then why call him a prophet? What good is any LDS prophet if later ideas can at anytime supercede theirs?

[manaen1lds]

(continued from previous comment)

We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don't matter any more.

.

It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year, 1978.

(continued in following commnet)

[manaen1lds]

(comment continued)

"And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world."

(continued in following comment)

[manaen1lds]

Just wondering -- in what way is this by Bruce R. McConkie, 2 months after the revelation on the priesthood, not saying that the old teachings were wrong:

.

"There are statements in our literature by the early Brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" (will be continued in next comment)

[mormonpatriot]

Your vain attempts at slander and misconception right my brother? yet the church rolls on with truth till it covers the earth. Africans are joining our fight for zion too so the past is the past lets move forward lgazzini your a good man so just live a good life sir

btw in our faith good people of all faiths are saved not just the mormons fyi

[lgazzini]

The past is always the past. Germans can admit the killing Jews was wrong. Mormons need to admit their leaders were wrong when they promoted this garbage. Yours is the past only because your church leaders control your god.

[vcomp1960]

What? Are you telling me that of the billions and billions of spirt children only two stood up to give an opinion? I find that hard to believe. I think the likes of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson would have stood up to give their proposal. Are you saying a guy like Hitler would not have stood up to give his opinion or Genghis Kahn or the one of the catholic popes or Julius Ceasar? Now, I know this Mormon religion is screwed up!

[CatholicsRantiGods]

The men are called of God, and do what they are told from a higher power. Ha Ha Ha

You have lost and this video makes you a racist and spreading Hate.

Watch "Spirit of God" by LDSteencenter

[CatholicsRantiGods]

In the Book of Mormon: 2 Nephi 26:33

"...he [God] inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he rememberth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile."

[CatholicsRantiGods]

Journal of Discourses 10:250, Brigham Young:

"...men will be called to judgment for the way they have treated the negro, and they will receive the condemnation of a guilty conscience, by the just Judge whose attributes are justice and truth."

[lgazzini]

Including the fools quoted in the video.

[CatholicsRantiGods]

Funny how the views of society wide has forgotten all the racism that went on during the early 1800's yet, you wanna bring up what little racism there was in my faith.. everyone knows if you look at the history of your church, you will find allot of racism too. We are not racists. You are for bringing up videos to stir contention.

[lgazzini]

At least we are not so stupid as to pretend it did not exist. Nor do we have to shut our brains off if we see religious leaders who were making racist remarks. You cannot say you are not racist if you cannot recognize blatant racist remarks.

[CatholicsRantiGods]

i just said that all faces have been racist. leave the Lord's faith alone. I recognize that there was a time when ALL religions were guilty of racist remarks. Protestant faiths had over 40 thousand members of the KKK not to mention there were grand dragons among the protestant religions of i can name 5 US states so don't get holier than the universe on us. mmmkay?

[CatholicsRantiGods]

I remember when the Govenor of Illinois made a pretty offending statement publicly too. in these days it would have been considered hate too. but you are filled with hate aren't you?

[lgazzini]

Yea the Gaenor of Illinois was stupid enough to use the words of Sydney Rigdon. when Mormons hacked up an innocent militia man, it did not help their cause.

[CatholicsRantiGods]

well your video is also promoting racism and you are a racist for promoting racist videos.

[lgazzini]

That is just stupid. I have never had a black person tell me that one.

[CatholicsRantiGods]

The men in this video are misrepresented by it's maker and are slanderour attempts. The works of the church speak out in favor of God and if men have any sin, He (not the church) will be held accountable. Just like we are not being held accountable because Adam ate the fruit of knoweldge of Good and Evil.

[lgazzini]

Are you saying these men were leaders in ending slavery and racism? Isn't Alvin a dear saint for saying god would not cause a righteous spirit to be born black? If these men believed blacks were equal, then why did they keep blacks out of Mormon temples? Did they just like their "whites only club?"

[CatholicsRantiGods]

The entire world has shown racism, the entire world. Racism is wrong and the church doesn't support it. Instead the church is to bring spiritual nourishment and enrich lives with the Gospel of Jesus Christ that is welcome to ALL KINDREDS, TONGUES, AND PEOPLES.

[utah185]

What is more important is not trying to understand God. But, to live as he would have you live. Live your life the best you can, don't try to live the life of your neighbor.

[utah185]

I don't think there is anything so easy to throw out there like racism. I mean everything can be turned to racism in one form or another. Any prophet or bishop or otherwise, can try to explain God, but at times they are just plain wrong. I am one who believes that only Christ was and is perfect. Men, Prophets alike, are falable, VERY falable. I look at the Bible and see falable me, great men and leaders who fell.

[lgazzini]

Were all the prophets in this video wrong about why black people are black? Simple question.

[utah185]

Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. I don't know. I really don't care. I mean, maybe it was only early ones. Maybe they were wrong. Either way, it isn't all that important to me. I mean, that might sound cold. But, that is just life, even churches try to be PC for their time.

[CatholicsRantiGods]

Protestants had approximately forty thousand ministers as members of the Ku Klux Klan with Protestant ministers serving as Grand Dragons in Pennsylvania, Texas, North Dakota, and Colorado (Curtiss Paul DeYoung, Michael O. Emerson, George Yancey, and Karen Chai Kim, United by Faith: The Multiracial Congregations as an Answer to the Problem of Race [Oxford: Oxford University Press, Inc., 2003], p 60).

[lgazzini]

One thing that is scary is that Grand Dragons are as close to as Sen Robert Byrd (D). I like any Christian, can come out and say they were 100% wrong for their racism. Mormons have difficulty, because they are taught their prophets speak on behalf of God. They would rather say God is racist, than their prophet is racist.

[juiceis420]

Saying that other people did it doesn't make it okay. Supposedly the church has direct contact with God the Father, his Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Other religions would be expected to get it wrong, tell me again why it's okay for LDS?

[CatholicsRantiGods]

point is he that is without sin, let him cast the 1st stone.. This video is an attempt to smear. Stop Bashing. Stop the hate.

[lgazzini]

This video shows the racism of the LDS. Read the statements. LDS NEVER admitted these men were wrong. LDS taught that black skin is a sign of a curse from God. They STILL believe this. Again they NEVER admitted they were wrong.

[CatholicsRantiGods]

because they're not

[lgazzini]

Are you saying that black skin is a sign of a curse from God???

[CatholicsRantiGods]

how bout explaining black skin in your words

[CatholicsRantiGods]

there is Nothing impossible with God.

[lgazzini]

Except being stupid like your last comment.

[CatholicsRantiGods]

i can make you look like a racist for calling me stupid. Look a racist here *points at Igazzini* Is that what you trying to do? I think so.

Nothing stupid or Impossible with God.

God is today, Yesterday and tomorrow. You don't even know Him.

[utah185]

This video only shows the views of men, not mine, and I am a Mormon. I am not racist. A bit of a generalization if you ask me. And black skin was the curse of Cain wasn't it?

[loqutor]

Sheesh, you go and dig up out-of-context quotes that aren't relevant anymore, and act as though they actually mean something.

Did you forget what Joseph Smith said about blacks? "They have souls, and are subjects of salvation." That was a radical teaching at the time.

[lgazzini]

Absolutely nothing radical about your Joseph Smith quote. The Methodists were in full force sharing the gospel with blacks long before Joseph Smith was born. The references to my quotes are given so people can check them out for themselves. Nothing is out-of-context. Time to get off your milk diet and bite into some real truth.

[mirellehop]

Hey, will you also make a video about Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, and other Christian religions and their track records with black people? Also, don't forget the American public in general. Because, c'mon, if you're gonna go after one religion for being racist, be fair and go after all religions for their past doctrines.

[lgazzini]

None of the others you mention have all this hate being spued out by so called Apostles and Prophets. If a Mormon does not take to heart what these white men say, it is because they lack faith (according to LDS.) So if you know of other religions where the Apostles and Prophets are racists and make these statements, have at it, you make the video.

[erimmd]

Horrible that all these stuck up old white men made all these stupid remarks. Even worse there are fools to believe them. Martin Luther King was 10 times the Saint Joseph Smith thought he was.

[HiveRadical]

And marriages performed in proxy here in earthly temples under the proper authority can be efficacious for those who never heard of eternal marriages while in their mortal frame.

[HiveRadical]

Notice that he was blessed in other areas, the only thing withheld in this instance was access to the priesthood. Thusly his pre-mortal position could very well have been high above that of others, even others tied to the order of God.

[lgazzini]

Hive- The Mormon view of the Old Testament priesthood seems warped to me. Do you believe of all the Jewish people only the Levites had the potential for temple marriages, etc? I only see the priesthood as being a duty. No special spiritual perks.

[HiveRadical]

The Prophet, Joseph Smith, makes it clear that the salvation (and all tied to it--temple marriages etc) would be made available to all God's children. Here's the quote--

<b>...(God) knows the situation of both the living and the dead, and has made ample provision for their redemption, according to their several circumstances, and the laws of the kingdom of God, whether in this world, or in the world to come.</b>

[lgazzini]

Hive- That still does not come close to answering the question. Do you believe only Levites had the potential for exaltation?

[HiveRadical]

It answers the question completely. I believe ALL have the potential for salvation.

[HiveRadical]

AND exaltation.

[lgazzini]

Hive- If you have to be temple worthy in order to obtain the highest celestial exaltation, then how could anyone other than the Levites in the old testament ever achieve it? If it didn't really matter, then why should it matter now? So far getting an answer is like nailing jello to the wall.

[HiveRadical]

That is precisely why proxy temple work is needed. Our theology holds that we, today, can perform the ordinances for others in proxy. Thus all will have access to it eventually, their circumstance while alive notwithstanding.

[lgazzini]

Hive- proxy work has always been a waste of time from my standpoint. Christ died on the cross for all of us, but how a sinner can work out salvation for another person makes no sense. So can temple marriages take place in heaven if the people were not sealed on earth?

[HiveRadical]

Christ's work was proxy work. If Christ did Proxy work, and if he commanded us to do His works, to follow His example, why would proxy work be out of the realm of things to do? Aren't Parents to stand in proxy for God? Prophets? Moses was to be a god to Pharaoh--isn't that proxy work?

[lgazzini]

So are you going to shed your blood? And who do you shed your blood for? The animal sacrificed was to be as unblemished as possible, would you even be worthy of such? Parents are to be guides, but parents are not God. That is making a human into an idol. Moses was God's mouthpiece, but he was not a god. Again, the proxy work described makes no sense.

[HiveRadical]

...government of Egypt was established by Pharaoh...<b>being a righteous man,</b> established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the <b>blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom,</b> but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.

[lgazzini]

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

[HiveRadical]

It's so simple minded and wrong headed to think that privilege with regard to the things of God is measured in so simple things as access to chattel and mammon. Joseph of Egypt, if estimated from when he was in prison or in the pit was made, would have appeared abysmally unfortunate. A foreign slave in a more advanced and prosperous culture. YET he WAS elect.

[lgazzini]

Hive- Then why do you keep arguing for it?

[HiveRadical]

I'm arguing for something different than you are portraying. I'm not saying that it's rawly on socio-economic status. I'm saying that there are far more factors than just that. Access to the restored gospel (this includes ingrained prejudices etc.) are added items to be considered.

[ElderJoseph]

Hive .. How come you think you better than the prophet Brigham Young .He was very clear on what he taught . Same with John Taylor .They are the ones who speak for the church and not you ! Don'tyou know the rules yet .Using the Joseph Of Egypt narrative is just an excuse to make blacks feel better about all the teachings about them.

[lgazzini]

Hive- According to you people born in better circumstances are always better than those less fortunate. That is just simple basic pride. I've done mission work in a poor area of Venezula and been blown away at the spiritual depth of some of these people.

[HiveRadical]

You don't understand what "better circumstance" entails. It's simplistic knuckleheadedness like this that demonstrates that fiscal and socio-economic based estimations of such are endlessly incorrect.

I'm not saying that the richer you are the better you were in the pre-mortal existance. RATHER I'm saying that the more privilaged you are with regard to access to the TRUTH the more righteous you were in the pre-mortal world.

[ElderJoseph]

Hive I've spent two years with Mormons and Mammon is a factor on faithfullness to the church .You are taught you will be richer financially for following the church heirarchy . Mark Peterson was clear about why we are born into different circumstances and he's The Apostle and not you .

[HiveRadical]

With Christ such was so--

<b>"I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations."</b>

That's Christ speaking in the NT! You need to take this up with Him!

[ElderJoseph]

There is no need to rationalise on why we are born in different circumstances .Its how it is .. Nothing to do with us as individuals or to do with any God ..Its how it is and no one has the answer .... notice how the Rich privilaged Mormon Apostles came up with that theory of rewards from a pre existence .If they were born in Africa they wouldn't have concluded that .

[HiveRadical]

Your answer is unsupportable. How do YOU know that "no one has the answer"???

Do you believe in God? If you do, isn't it then important to establish that the God you believe in is just?

Where is justice in placing people at random on a whole spectrum of good and bad environs when environs are linked to peoples access to knowledge of God and his will?

[lgazzini]

Very nicely stated. Jesus said a rich man is more likey to have trouble getting into heaven. Blessed are the poor in spirit (ie the humble.)

[ElderJoseph]

Racism is a problem for the Mormon Church .They have a terrible history of embarrassing and damning statements from Prophets and Apostles who they claim were under direct supervision of Jesus Christ. Their history is proof that its man made from the first tyrant called Joseph Smith .

[HiveRadical]

The damning theology is found in those who think God arbitrarily places people into circumstances of varying advantage. Only a spiteful and unjust being would arbitrarily put some people in misery and give grand blessings to others with no connections to their earthly actions.

The great mind of Early Christianity, Origen, came to the same conclusion on the need for present status to be determined by something other than a just and impartial God.

[lgazzini]

Hive- Your response here is like Job's friends trying to tell Job how God should be going about his business.  Job 38:33" Can you set up God's dominion over the earth?"

[CatholicsRantiGods]

Hive, Well said.

The revelation brought to Spencer W. Kimball was vital and timely in the Lords time. The temple ordinances were more important than anything. Peter James and John the revelator did place their hands on Joseph and Oliver. It is the straight gate in which Elijah came to Kirkland and opened. God is Immortal and so will we be immortal if we are humble and follow.  The correct baptism is only found in the Church of Jesus Christ restored as the scriptures foretold.

[lgazzini]

Ha Ha Ha. Now you are lol. Why WAS the revelation timely? Because the ideas about a rebellion and some being less valiant were totally stupid to begin with!!!! Why did your god have to change his mind? Blacks are not temple worthy one day, then OK the next.

[lgazzini]

Hive- Joseph was never consistent. He smoked, drank wine, and did admit one black man to the priesthood. As anti-slavery as LDS make Joseph sound he did say "Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species..." HC vol 5, 217-218. Joseph was not out to make black people equal citizens. Note that the vast majority of abolitionists did not want violence or war either.

[HiveRadical]

You'd be hard pressed to find a single white abolitionist that wasn't, by todays standards, a racist.

The Word of Wisdom was not initially given as a commandment.

The Prince of Peace said "I came not to send peace, but a sword."

<b>Consistency, or the lack thereof, are items easily skewed in partial context.</b>

[lgazzini]

The abolitionists were certainly less racist than most of the other citizens.

So was the Word of Wisdom originally the "Suggestions of Wisdom?"

[HiveRadical]

If relative racism is your only concern then that would explain a good deal.

On the word of wisdom. It clearly states "To be sent greeting; <b>not by commandment or constraint</b>, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

God didn't throw the saints in cold turkey. He's to practical.

[ElderJoseph]

HiveRadical Blacks being inferior was taught in the Salt Lake Tabernacle from church leaders in the whole of the Journal Of Discorses (25 years)and many years after that up until Spencer Kimball.

[HiveRadical]

Inferiority is not what has been taught. Rather what is taught is that present status is not some arbitrary chosen by a god that's a respecter of persons.

If there's a black person born in impoverished West Africa, yet they have a more ready access to the gospel than some rich white kid in Utah then the black person in Africa, by the doctrines you cite, would have been more faithful in the pre-mortal world.

[ElderJoseph]

Hive I've read your church's teachings and especially apostle Mark Peterson . In my view a black African who hears the gospel is unlikely to be able to check the church history out .Thats why the church is growing there through ignorance and lack of information .The white kid in Utah is lucky because he'll have access to true information .

[HiveRadical]

Yeah. That's why there's a books like "A Son of Ham Under the Covenant" published.

If we were trying to hide our history we wouldn't be building a new building to house, and present, our archives to the public.

We've been setting up and employing the means for third world members to gain educations and financial security and access to all we have access to.

[HiveRadical]

That's why Gladys Knight joined in your view?-because she's 'trapped' in all that "ignorance and lack of information" you think any Black convert is in? Is the only Black convert to the LDS faith an ignorant one in your view?

And we're the racist ones.

This is as bad or worse than those who 'question' the 'blackness' of the likes of Condoleza Rice or Bill Cosby when they question what's portrayed as the 'status quo.'

[HiveRadical]

You know the irony of all this is that your view of God inherently places him as a respector of persons. Because if God arbitrarily placed humans in diserpately different circumstances then HE is BY THE VERY DEFINITION OF THE WORD a RESPECTOR OF PERSONS. But if a people's condition here and now is tied to previous actions THEY made the all the positions men occupy today are NOT conditions arbitrarily dictated by God.

[HiveRadical]

Racism has never been a part of our doctrine.

[lgazzini]

Look up the quotes. Read them to a black person and ask their opinion. I have. They just shake their heads at how ridiculous this is. Racism has been and will always be a part of Mormonism until you acknowledge these men are wrong.

[HiveRadical]

Jesus refered to a woman that came to him, and the whole of her ethnicity, as dogs.

Was that a racist statement on his part?

[lgazzini]

Hive- Here you take an analogy and miss the whole message. Did Jesus call her "cursed", "inferior", "uncouth"? Of course not. Early Mormon Prophet words used to describe black people. Those words are not used as analogies, they are insults. After using an analogy what did Christ say to this woman, "O woman, great is your faith!"

[HiveRadical]

Dogs vs. Humans. I'd call dogs inferior and uncouth, at times even 'cursed.' Do you find dogs to be equivilant to humans?

Yes he says "great is your faith!" but Joseph Smith also gave the priesthood to several black men. Joseph Smith offered a means to freeing the slaves that would have entirely avoided the Civil War. THAT is likely what Brigham Young was against the abolitionists about, he wanted the slaves freed--but he didn't want it done through violence or force of arms.

[lgazzini]

Hive- Your question here is far below your typical standards. If you are comparing black people to dogs, you are showing something in your heart I would not have anticipated.

[lgazzini]

How racism in the Latter Day Saints started, and how it never stopped.