James Burke : Connections, Episode 3, "Distant Voices", 3 of 5 (CC)

[Crasshopperrr]

I've also heard it speculated that Chinese development differed from Occidental because of politics. Besides the infamous burning of their 3-masted ships by the Eunuchs to oppose the Mandarin powers -- Europe was composed of small, fractured nation-states wherein one single Emperor had less power to keep things the way they were.

Mr Burke is presenting philosophy-as-cause as if that were undisputed, rather than just a theory.

[Kurtlane]

James Burke doesn't know much about China. And it shows.

[Rickyrab]

Actually, Mr. Burke was wrong about the supposed early lack of Chinese gunpowder artillery. The Song Dynasty (that's between the years 960 and 1279, by the way) had "fire-lances" made out of hollowed out bamboo, and then they took to propelling arrows with gunpowder and, eventually, early cannons. But China got stuck in a rut in later centuries.

[Rickyrab]

@Rickyrab Burke's error is understandable when you factor in that he was looking up English-language sources in the 1970s, when Chinese knowledge hadn't quite seeped into common English-language sources to the extent they have today, and when there was no Internet to speak of.

[KhalidCabrero]

"inaudible" = "Cividale" (in Friuli, NE Italy)

[unchiekun]

I learned more from JB than I did in the 6 years i spent in higher ed. I love all of his shows!!

[qthelost]

I think James Burke's Saturday Night Fever suit is actually a subtle message he's trying to get across. I think he's saying that you can ponder the intricate connections that make up existance AND shake your booty at the same time.

[Nueroactive]

Yuan Lee Molecular Beam Shen. Human designs were constantly being used in human formations. Film "Mom's Outta Sight". So much for denying the acts of Chinese making of Manchurian Candidates. Just for the record........who makes School shooters using human design programs?

[masterbayshun0]

BOOBIES!!!!

[oker59]

@masterbayshun0

yea, they're not that great! Most tits aren't! How is there a god when 95% of the woman are not that hot and their tits are never that great?

[neocoders]

Wow..I guess the princes and princesses haven't really changed that much then.

[1982CFD]

The Taoists are amazing. He pronounces it wrong though it's supposed to be pronounced with a "D".

[KevinByrne2]

9:46 -- The siege occurred in the Italian town of Cividale in the Friuli region -- not in 1327 but in 1331.

[Vangrungy]

You can't fill a climate model with 'Shen'

lol

[nabeelmerchant]

@Vangrungy shen is energy, as in all matter consist of atoms and all atoms are composed on energy, its just semantics ( a different way to interperate the same idea in diffeent words or contextual language. You get this and you understand science is very old even older than chineese.

[kacplaymyst]

Gunpowder was invented, documented, and used in the Jin Dynasty (1115–1234) in China where the Jurchen military forces used gunpowder-based weapons technology (i.e. rockets, guns, cannons), and explosives (i.e. grenades and different types of bombs) against the Mongols when the Mongols attempted to invade and breach the Jurchen city fortifications on the northern borders of the Jin Dynasty.

[samandal007]

@kacplaymyst At the same time though with the tactics the Mongols used they were to fast for the guns of the period for them to be useful.

[TheSaturnalia]

A bit disrespectful to the Chinese, as they did stuff gunpowder into 'bells' and made early handguns long before they were made in Europe. The merchants might not have had an incentive to get ahead, but the generals of any civilization are always looking for better ways to kill people.

[richintalent]

1:10- ouch!!!

[aryaditya80]

James Burke is a racist ignorant pig. The typical Oxford brainwashed pig always tries to rationalize European colonialism. One justification - Oh look these Chinese/Indian/Arab savages stumbled upon a technology but had no brains to use it. They had no brains to use it because of a weakness in their social/economic/political organization. But our society's philosophy and outlook are the best and we deserve to suck the life out these savages.

[mpc91]

The only brainwashed person here is you. It is your ignorance on display.

He doesn't try to rationalize colonialism, just explain it in context.

But you are the one who is trying to justify your politics and revisionist history.

[beepandbop]

@aryaditya80 Part 1:

Well, James Burke probably didn't have time to cover this, but the Greeks/Romans in Alexandria had invented the Steam Engine in A.D. 100.

That is around 1650 years before the Europeans got around to rediscovering it.

The Roman Empire could have an industrial revolution on a scale unimaginable--it had all the ingredients: stability, prosperity, and an intense interest in achieving new capabilities and glory.

[beepandbop]

@aryaditya PT 2

However, the same Hellenistic influences that later influenced the 18th cent. industrial revolution was the primary reason the steam engine in Alexandria never became anything more than a curiosity.

The Greeks believed that attempting to control nature was almost blasphemous, expressed hubris, etc. It was bad business, and even though most Hellenistic philosophies had discarded the idea of gods (Pericles of Athens could be described an agnostic/atheist), the steam engine died.

[persianlor]

@aryaditya80

WOW...seriously dude...I am not british or European, but even I don't hate colonialism that much. I mean it was evil...Burke states that throughout the Connections Series (1-3)--it produced the largest slavery trade ever. But dude...you can't rewrite history. Do not expel your hatred of colonialism to someone else's observations. You are attacking the wrong man. Perhaps you need to take up your concerns with Neil Fergusson. James Burke just isn't in the same category.

[PenisMcWhirtar]

James Burke is the cleverest person in the universe.

[fourteenwordsisall]

How come the Chinese did`nt discover how to grow aquatic rice until the 18th century?

Ex oriente lux is an anti-White racist philosophy.

[JamesBurkeWeb]

Never heard of it. And anyway, try to refrain from political and/or references to "racism" (an anti-human philosophy ;)).

The topic here is supposed to be science. So let's stick to questions that, at least in theory, can be answered one way or the other.

Mr. Burke's remarks on these development paths and corresponding philosophies are mere speculation; not worth arguing over. Maybe he's right, maybe not. If we can show either then we have something to say. If not, pointless sophistry follows.

[aryaditya80]

@JamesBurkeWeb The topic here seems less about science and more about smirking on the lousy ways of the French, and rationalizing that the 'oriental' societies despite their advanced science and technology were actually primitive. Well the English need these rationalizations for it must surely make them uncomfortable that even in the 10th century they were not civilized enough to wash regularly.

[Bondianwolf]

ditya80 = you need anger management and a lobotomy. Please don't procreate.

[BoStevoD]

@JamesBurkeWeb I believe the topic here is history, not science. And being that history deals in relations and not merely things, the unreal as well as the real, I would advise philosophy, cultural criticism and debate be encouraged rather than dismissed under false charges of racism.

[drav1dan]

Because aquatic rice (whatever that was) was not important to them. They had other varieties.

The universe was not created merely to praise your race or culture all the time, so that your inferiority complex could be relieved. A lot of wisdom, science & technology have in fact come from the east. And a lot of technology, political philosophy & pop culture has gone to the east from the west.

[Grak70]

What does rice cultivation have to do with the invention of gun-powder? Culture, like evolution, is not a ladder.

[JamesBurkeWeb]

Who said it did? Rice cultivation however (let's assume for the sake of argument that someone did say the two were related) depends on regular rain fall and the advent of irrigation which teaches you mathematics and astronomy which leads to large communities which leads to celebrations which are enhanced by making loud noises to imitate thunder and hence the celebration rainfall depends partly on gunpowder.

Good enough?

[icemachine79]

@fourteenwordsisall If you're going to besmirch an entire culture you should at least get your punctuation correct. Now not only is the content ignorant, but the presentation as well.

The point Burke was trying to make is that the Chinese and many other Eastern cultures developed their technologies to enhance life, while the Western cultures tended to do the opposite. I admit that's a generalization, but it holds true in most cases.

[unchiekun]

I found this series in my college library in the 1990's, and it was one connection that changed the way i thought ever since. I am so happy to have found all this in one location

Thank you!!

[JamesBurkeWeb]

Not at all. Enjoy "rediscovering" it. You'll be surprised at the things you may have missed the 1st time around...

[JamesBurkeWeb]

Yes, I think it's useful to have a 2nd or even 3rd look at the series. There's so much information packed into every episode that you tend to miss a lot the 1st time around.

Oh, and you're very welcome.

- JBW

[ccwman21]

I am enjoying this series, however, Mr. Burke is romanticizing the purity and peaceful nature of of the Chinese culture and history.

It puts things in terms of "us (West)" and "them (Chinese)" note the segment starting at 5:24 "...they had gunpowder..., and look what we did with that..." Mr. Burke talks as if the Chinese did not use gunpowder for empire expansion. Kublai Kahn appropriated grenades from the Chinese. Kublai's use of Chinese "hand grenades" was recorded by the Japanese in 1274.

[ccwman21]

My point is that watching the history depicted by Mr. Burke, must be done critically, as with any knowledge that is purported or reported. This goes to development of villages, too.

[JamesBurkeWeb]

Absolutely. I don't think that was ever in dispute. I hope not anyway ;)

- JBW

[ccwman21]

No, it wasn't.

I am discussing some of these topics and issues with a friend. He sometimes accepts the generalities (especially in this series),  and runs with them.

[JamesBurkeWeb]

Well, there certainly is an element of truth (more than I guess) to what you say. However, it is true that generally speaking the Chinese used certain technologies very differently than they were used by the "west". As for "they", he also uses "they" when describing western factions such as the reformers etc. So I don't think "they" has the meaning you're presuming here. What other word would you use to describe a group of people who no longer exist? I don't know about the grenades. continued...

[ccwman21]

Episode 3 takes a distinct general view of "European=violent and Chinese=peaceful (Tao)"

The issue of grenades being used by Kublai's invading forces in 1274 and 1281, is depicted in 蒙古襲来絵詞, which is dated to ca.1293. The mortar or grenade is clearly shown.

Mr. Burke does a very good job at presenting the facts in a way that captivates, but his presentation is a bit misleading, to people who are not ready to investigate further.

[JamesBurkeWeb]

Sure, I agree. He does make mistakes, just like any other human being. And I'm sure he's ready and willing to admit when he's been wrong. I highly doubt any of his narrative is *intentionally* misleading.

Remember as well, he did all the research by himself, from sources available at the time: 1975ish, mostly in English libraries. Also keep in mind that there was no internet at that time to simply google something up.

- JBW

[LibBiblio]

ack! as a librarian I hope that you do not consider all info found in a google search to be superior to verifiable academic work that, you know, actually cites reputable sources. (not to say that good stuff isn't found on the internet, but I also don't agree that research on the web in 2009 is necessarily "better" (or worse) than research in libraries in 1975, at least about many historical matters

[JamesBurkeWeb]

No, not *all* of course. Google Scholar is probably the best resource for academic papers and journal articles, complete with references to "reputable" sources. That's typically where I go if I want to locate an article on any subject I choose.

- JBW

[JamesBurkeWeb]

BTW. For those interested in viewing this image (蒙古襲来絵詞, dated 文永の役 (1274) which means Wen Yong の役 (2nd part not known to me) I have uploaded it to rapidshare as:

h t t p : / / r a p i d s h a r e . c o m / f i l e s / 2 1 3 2 0 1 2 2 1 / m o u k o s y u u r a i z u . j p g

Copy to notepad, replace spaces with nothin' and dload.

[JamesBurkeWeb]

The image appears to depict a burning spherical shape disintegrating and seemingly attached to a straight-line "lance" or some sort. Red streaks seem to indicate burning... though I can't read the chinese so I don't know if it's a burning weapon or an exploding weapon.

An explosion, to me anyway, would seem to be directed evenly in all directions, whereas here it appears as though the fire is a propellant rather than a granade. Anyone who can read chinese, I have the link.

- JBW

[ccwman21]

I saw a history channel or PBS show on this art, and its significance relating to bombs and the recorded use of gunpowder. From answers(dot)com under the topic "Samurai" you will find this statement "The Mongol invaders used small bombs, which was likely the first appearance of bombs and gunpowder in Japan."

Thanks for looking it up and posting the info.

[JamesBurkeWeb]

No, you have it backwards. Thank *you* for providing enough info so that I could have a look and see for myself!

- JBW

[ccwman21]

I recall that the show had scientists attempting to duplicate the explosives using earthen ceramics.

However, I don't remember how the devices were thought to have been deployed, but I think it was by catapult or sling.

[JamesBurkeWeb]

Looks like more like a catapult by that picture... there's definitely a straight-lined solid non-projectile attachment seemingly tossing it into the general direction of the enemy. However any number of means could have been empoloyed and we have only one example. Sling would require a rubber-like substance, and I don't know what they would use for that (also it would not appear in the picture, so even if used, to portray it in static imagery would be difficult).

- JBW

[ccwman21]

Cool trick, I will use that one.

[JamesBurkeWeb]

It's funny you know... I just assumed that Mr. Burke had made an error, but after doing the closed captions for this episode (just now), you will see that he very clearly mentions these granades in the monologue. Even rockets.

His point is that the *main* use of Chinese gunpowder was in ritualistic ceremonies, not warfare.

- JBW

[JamesBurkeWeb]

There are other things that were pure luck on the part of whoever "us" is supposed to be. The Chinese had printing, however since chinese language has so many characters, one could never develop a printing press. "We" were lucky in that our language only had a few symbols representing sounds. So you could make thousands of A's, B's and so on and thus standardized printing. It's only now (due to computers) that we have standardized chinese printing. And look what's happening in Asia!

- JBW

[batan058]

Hadn't realised villages were so (relatively) recent.