Acts 13:48 is the most unambiguous verse on salvation,it says,When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.
The particularity is ALL who were chosen for eternal life,some translations say..and as many as were appointed.Not even all the gentiles that heard God's word that day were chosen to believe.Unsaved men hate the fact that God has free will to choose His own sheep,it crushes their pride.
All men Gentile and Jew,Fat and skinny,all colors,all economic brackets,all nations,slave and free,man and women,old and young contain God's elect people and every person who Jesus died to save will be in Heaven,not one that He died for will be in Hell.Jesus died to actually save specific individuals and took the wrath for their specific sins.Think for a minute,if Jesus died for ALL MEN &THEIR SINS God would have no wrath to pour out on the wicked and He still has plenty,Jesus SAVED people.
Calvinism/Doctrines of Grace/Reformed Theology are from the pit of Hell.....they are heresies that make God Almighty a sinner and not just a sinner but the Author of ALL sin.
Every child raped....every women beaten...every person murdered...every deceitful business deal...every cruelty man has done, was authored by God. It is a blasphemous false religion and many otherwise fine Bible teachers are promoting it today. MacArthur, Sproul, Piper, are some of them. Flee and Repent of Calvinism!!
The Calvinist are RIGHT that only those who God grants faith to can be saved, The Arminianist are RIGHT that Christ dies for ALL. The TRUTH is that he died for all but only hs elect will believe now but ALL will believe eventually. He is truly the saviour of all.
The Calvinist are RIGHT that only those who God grants faith to can be saved, The Arminianist are RIGHT that Christ dies for ALL. The TRUTH is that he dis for all but only hs elect will beieve now but ALL will believe eventually. He is truly the saviour of all.
@jeepsterrr - Successful saviors save things. Maybe Hasselhoff isn't able to save 'em all, but the Lord Jesus Christ saved his people from their sins (Matt 1:21), every last one of His sheep - "My SHEEP hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:27-29).
@theearstohear But I have not disagree with anything you have said. Successful saviours succeed. This is why all shall be saved. All are given and all will eventually come. He sent his son to be the saviour of the world and he saved the world. Simple and amazing and beautiful.
@jeepsterrr - Universalism turns a blind eye to the numerous passages in the bible that teach the eternal punishment of the wicked. (Matt 23:33, Luke 16:22-23, Mark 9:43-48) The scriptures must be rightly divided (II Tim 2:15). That means that each scripture must be rightly understood in its context but also in the broader context of the precepts established elsewhere in scripture. Universalism does not square with the passages that preach eternal punishment and is therefore untenable.
@theearstohear Nonesense. The passages you quote do not contain any Greek word that means eternal. If you believe god will torture people forever you clearly believe God is a sadist. Scripture must interpret scripture which is why your position is untenable. Refer to any "literal" translation and you will read of "age abiding correction" NOT eternal punishment. As in Adam all died even so in Christ shall all be made alive. This is the truth GOD is not a sadist.
@jeepsterrr - - Your "age of abiding correction" is literally, "aionios" - perpetual, eternal, everlasting, without end, never to cease; "kolasis" - punishment, torment, correction. (Matt 25:46) That sound you hear is the false doctrine of UNIVERSALISM being ground into oblivion by the truth; like a angry white sow spasmodicaly flailing atop a bushel-basket of gilded holiday eggs. CRUSH!
@theearstohear You do speak total garbage. aionios does not mean eternal. For example the word is used in Luke 12:34. If it meant "eternity" it would read "The sons of this ETERNITY marry! There are many other examples that prove beyond doubt that this word does not mean eternity. You are teaching that God is going to torture the bulk of his creation forever. This is an evil doctrine of demons that maligns God's character.
@jeepsterrr - The Greek word "aionios" occurs 71 times in the New Testament. It is translated "eternal" 42 times, "everlasting" 25 times, "world" 3 times and "for ever" 1 time. It does NOT appear in Luke 12:34. There are NO other examples. God is Holy, he punishes sin because he is just. The everlasting punishment of the wicked does not malign God's character, it affirms it. SPANK! Dang, that's gonna leave a mark!
@theearstohear That should have been LUKE 20:34. The word is also used in Matthew 24:3 According to your idea the desciples asked Jesus what the sign would be of the end of eternity! Really! Does that make sense? You are believing a wicked lie. If you think it affirms God's character to eternally torture people then you are worshipping a false idol and not the true God in whom ALL the families of the earth will be blessed.
@jeepsterrr - The word in Luke 20:34 is the noun "aion" (G165) not the adjective "aionios" (G166). They are interpreted differently because they are different words with different meaning. Context is important here. For example, in Matt 25:46 the word is used twice. One of the references is to where God's people end up - "life ETERNAL." I submit that the same meaning that applies to the duration "life" in this verse, likewise applies to the duration of the punishment.
Great video! Thanks for posting! It really drives home Christ's propitiation for the elect. I love Dr White, he really knows the scriptures and knows to compare scripture with scripture as he has done here.
Also, I believe it to be theological unsound and inconsistent as well to claim Jesus died for everyone's sins with the intention to save all of mankind. For if Matt. 1:21 is true, then Jesus' atonement WILL save those whom it was intended for (that is "His people from their sins"). I view this as particular redemption from a perfect Savior, and not a savior who tries but sometimes fails to save; but one who accomplishes all His purpose (Isaiah 46:10) and whose will cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2).
@EternalGFX1 Jesus did die for mankind, and if we are not saved, in the end it is not because he failed... it is because we failed. do you really believe he would create some one to put them in hell. Just o prove how powerful he is if I thought this I would not be a Christian> Duh!
@myladyschild - Jesus Christ died for the sheep (John 10:11) and all are not sheep (John 10:26). Basing your theology on "do you really believe" statements is not biblical theology, it's baseless conjecture. The very notion you say would turn you from the faith is, in fact, the teaching of scripture. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Rom 9:21) Search the scriptures to see if these things are so. (Acts 17:11)
@theearstohear So the potter, made you a sheep and others he did not. is that what your saying " do you really believe" statement is coming from an ordinary person i am not trying to impress anybody
@myladyschild - Yes. The Lord God chose a people from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). He sent His Son to die for their sins and perfect them before God's throne by HIS sacrifice (Heb 10:14). He sends his spirit to regenerate them and give them faith (Gal 4:6,, 5:22). It is not by "our" obedience that we are saved, we are saved by the obedience of "one" (Rom 5:19) the Lord Jesus Christ. We are saved UNTO good works (Eph 2:10), not BY good works (Rom 3:20). I'm ordinary too. :)
I agree with James on this issue; in that we should use scripture to interpret the word kosmos for us and the author's use of that word throughout his writings. For Arminians are quick to accuse Calvinist of presupposing things on text, yet they likewise presuppose the word world has to mean every single individual that has and will ever live. We certainly can't let that interpretation be deemed accurate in light of verses such as Luke 2:1 or John 12:19, since the word world can't mean that.....
For important truths on how the Bible proves the teachings of traditional Catholic faith, its necessity for salvation, proof of creation and miracles, as well as other important spiritual and secular issues, please visit channel: MHFM1.
I guess the point would be that as a calvinist ("reformed") Mr. White believes that Christ died only for the elect, because his sacrifice is efficacious for everyone he died for, hence, he must not have died for those destined for perdition or else Jesus "failed" those people. In his scheme then "the whole world" must only be "all kinds of men" (individuals from each category of race, ethnic group, etc).
Perhaps the phrase exactly in 3 words, but Romans, especially the first chapters, is a compare and contrast between Jew and Gentile. Also the word "circumcised and uncircumcised" is used interchangeably. I would bet that the contrast between Jew and Gentile is used at least 50 times in Romans, alone.
OK, let's supposse that arminians are right..... that Jesus died for every single human person on the planet.... then Why are not all people saved??? particulary Why are unbelievers not saved?? didn't christ died in the cross also for their sin of unbelief??
@physicist21 - Great point. The reason is that while Arminians insist that Christ died for everyone, they also insist that his death did not accomplish salvation for anyone.
@theearstohear Yes, and not only this but also.... they do not realize that the priest in the old testament intercedes specifically for whom the sacrifice is made , If Jesus died for every single human being that ever lived... He also intercedes fot every single human being and we need to be universalists why? read Heb. 7:25
@theearstohear Ihave also noticed that the video said that to belive this way (referin to particular redemption) , one must first begin with cretain presuppositions brought into the text, but they don't realize that they are actually the ones bringing the presupposition that the word "world" in 1 John 2:2 means every single human being that ever lived...
@physicist21 - Once you understand what "propitiation" is, the "world" that John has in view HAS TO BE the elect, else you've got universalism. I've done a short video on this - look for "Office Theology 108 - I John 2:2" - I think you'll find it amusing.
We all come to Scripture with a preconcieved bias. Even the non-Calvinist and Roman Catholic does. You're video should at least be honest and admit that. Rom 5 doesn't say that Christ died for "all" (which even the word "all" has to be understood in context), but says he died for many.Arguing against partucular atonement from 1 John 2:2 is probably not the strongest case. John echoing the OT, in that God's blessings aren't just as that of a tribal diety, but will go out to the whole world.
"...But through their fall, to provoke jealousy, salvation has come to the GENTILES. Now, if their fall is riches for the WORLD, and their failure riches for the GENTILES..."
We see clearly, that in the mind of the Jew, salvation to Gentiles meant salvation to the "world."
White defended fine, glad to see your going back to your roots, Rome. =)
Jn 11:51-52: "he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, [A: and not for the nation only], [B: but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad]."
1 John 2:2: "He is the propitiation for our sins, [A: and not for ours only] [B: but also for the sins of the whole world]."
Parallel? Seems pretty clear to me. A = referring to Jewish people. B = The children of God scattered among the Gentiles, or, the "world" as John uses the word.
the desperate rationalisations and twistings calvinsits do to justify refusing to let thscriptures speak for themselves!!!!!!!. I once thought that calvinists were simply another demonination, but i am hard pressed to think that if christians at all they are anything other than carnal and deluded
Limited Atonement is the worst blasphemy of Calvinism. To claim that universal atonement = universalism disregards the fact that the free amnesty must be received from God by persoinal application to Him in the Spirit.
ALL are atoned for but only a few receive it.
Limited Atonment? FOUL BLASPHEMY!! How can calvinists possibly know God if they misrepresent Him like this . Besides it says elsewhere GOD IS NOT WILLING THAT ANYONE PERISH. Limited Atonement denies this
@Strefanasha - Does "atonement" mean that "Jesus paid it all" or "Jesus paid it all but you have to do something in order to make it count?" The bible's testimony is that Christ's sacrifice was utterly effectual (Heb 10:14), apart from any obedience on man's part (Rom 5:6). Anyone preaching that man has to DO something in order to make the atonement effectual is preaching the obedience of two - the bible teaches that "by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (Rom 5:19)
As White said, if "world" means all humanity, John would be a universalist due to the word "propitiation". If all humanity is propitiated it is impossible for even one person to go to hell. Hell is where sinners experience God's wrath. Propitiation means God's wrath is satisfied. So ThePristineFaith: Are you a universalist? How can any person go to hell if Christ has propitiated all humanity?
@ETHANGELIST Of course I'm not a universalist. I might ask you why you've apparently rejected the testimony of the early church after the death of the apostles in favor Augustinianism? In addition to Christ's propitiation another element is required: faith of the worshipper in the finished atonement of Christ. This is abundantly clear from the Old Testament.
@ThePristineFaith It is impossible for anyone to go to hell if everyone has been propitiated. You believe Christ has paid for every sin for every human right? Isn't disbelief a sin? And therefore all of those who disbelief and reject Jesus are forgiven, justified by Christ's blood and therefore will never and can never go to hell? Is that true or false? If false, then why did Jesus waste His precious blood on those who would inevitably perish in hell? Does He try to save those guaranteed to die?
@ThePristineFaith Would this then mean that there will be individuals in hell whose sin is completely paid for and God's justice toward them completely satisfied? Of course it also implies that ultimately it is not God who saves but salvation ultimately comes by the will and effort of man. God opens the door but the ultimate reason some are saved and others are not is because of something special within that person. There's no way around that from your perspective.
@ThePristineFaith Would this mean that there will be individuals in hell whose sin is completely paid for and God's justice toward them completely satisfied? Of course it also implies that ultimately it is not God who saves but salvation ultimately comes by the will and effort of man. God opens the door in a sense, but the ultimate reason some are saved and others are not is because of something special within that person. There's no way around that from your perspective.
You are not applying the same definition for propitiation throughout the text.
And what you said is not abundantly clear from the OT. But what is clear is that the oblation and intercession must be of equal extent, seeing that the high priest's intercession is simply a display of the oblation.(heb 9)
Does Christ ask for heathens as an inheritance and is not heard of the Father? Jn 11:42: "I know that You always hear Me."
Ps 2:8: "Ask Me and I'll give You the heathens for Your inheritance."
1) This issue was not relevant during the period of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, as they were dealing with different issues.
2) Our doctrine is NEVER to be derived from extra-Biblical sources (including Augustine).
3) If you are saying that our faith somehow "makes Christ's atonement effectual", then you do not have an ACTUAL substitutionary, propitiatory sacrifice...only a POTENTIAL one (and man controls its efficacy). This is what Calvinists reject.
@ThePristineFaith - Why base a theological argument on the post apostolic early church? If the bible is both sufficient and perspicuous then what ANY man has to say is irrelevant unless it fits the scriptures. All that matters is that you compare scripture with scripture and rightly divide the word. Faith is not a requirement of the covenant of salvation (Heb 10:14), it is a provision of the covenant of salvation (Gal 5:22). Salvation is by the obedience of "one." (Rom 5:19)
@ETHANGELIST Because you accept the Protestant heresy that someone "saved" cannot lose their salvation-the merits of Christ are infinite-more than enough to atone for all the sins ever committed-and considering the titanic evil of the sins of mankind that required a Divine feat--yet the saved must avoid sin and do good as was the example of Our Lord-or do you think murderers, blasphemers, devil worshippers, and sorcerers who once "accepted Christ as Savior" can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven?
@RPenta "or do you think murderers, blasphemers, devil worshippers, and sorcerers who once "accepted Christ as Savior" can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven?"
As usual, those who reject eternal security argue against it using their own version of the doctrine instead the real one. That's called a straw man argument. Once saved always saved goes hand-in-hand with persevering to the end in faith. Everyone who is eternally secure will never die an unbeliever, they will always die a true Christian
@ETHANGELIST I did not say they were "unbelievers" merely that they committed grave and unrepentent sins.
The essential problem with Calvinists is that they read the NT through a few passages from St. Paul-the "rosetta stone" of Christianity. Start with the Gospels and read St. Paul through them-after all, that is what Paul keeps saying he is preaching. But I understand why they do that; because Jesus puts such emphasis on obeying God, keeping the commandments and avoiding sin.
@RPenta Oh and "Accepting Christ" is not found once in the Bible, but "believe in", "receive", "faith" and "know" Christ is.
Do you really think you, as a sinner, can earn God's approval and eternal life by good works even though God is so holy just 1 sin makes you deserve eternal hell in His eyes? Hebrews 11:6 says it is impossible to please God without faith, it doesn't say without works. We need the righteousness of Christ, not our own, because we fall short.
@ETHANGELIST No that has never been the Catholic or EO position but good works are necessary as Jesus commands us to do as He did. Calvinists also overlook the import of the parable of the sheep and the goats-these are what Catholics would call "sins of omission"-which are as deadly as sins of commission.
@RPenta John 1:12 says "receive" Christ, not accept. The more literal translation is receive. We're not supposed to "accept" Christ, He's supposed to accept us.
@RPenta - Read on to v13, "which WERE BORN... of God." The verb tenses employed here establish that these people were born again PRIOR to ever receiving Christ by faith. This is evident in numerous NT passages - "He who IS OF GOD heareth God's words" (John 8:47), "he that... believeth... IS PASSED from death unto life." (John 5:24), "Whosoever believeth... IS BORN (literally "has been born") OF GOD." (I John 5:1)
@ETHANGELIST Why would being a universalist be so bad? Your argument that sinners must experience hell needs another theological visit. What if all judgment statements were penultimate statements? What about apocalyptic writings? I am amazed at the theology people hold simply on ideas of hell and punishment. If all humanity is saved, it will be because of Jesus' atoning work. Why can't we understand that we really know very little of what happens after death. Theological hubris is the worst.
@ETHANGELIST - Amen, brother. That's a great point. It is also one that I have made before in a short video entitled "Office Theology 108 - I John 2:2"
James White's answers were very good actually. Part of sound exegesis is to look into the author's context and the author's use of the same words. In this case cosmos. I believe Limited Atonement is so abundantly obvious to every NT writer, that every time they mention "all" or "world" or "all men" they automatically assume their readers would know it means all of the elect or every type of man.
@marcelobetel - If I went to the bank and paid off your mortgage, you WOULD NOT OWE next month's payment, whether you believed the good news of the debt being paid or not. You're gonna look pretty strange to the teller as you insist upon making payment on a closed account that is paid in full. The gospel is good news for God's people because Jesus it got the job done. That's the pre-existing truth that we lay hold of by faith and why we turn away form dead works for salvation.
@theearstohear Well, the pre-existing thig is THE CREATOR, HIS LOVE, HIS WORD, THE EVERLASTING LAW, that is the foundation of this: The Creator is LOVE and created only perfect things. This unique CREATOR wants all mankind with HIM. BUT in The Ethernal Law, The Creator and all spiritual individuals have freedom to chose. 'Cause HE have it, HE gave it to the ones that HE loves. Every thing out of this is justa another LIE like that one offered to Eve.
@casadapazaosdeabraao - If God "wants all [of] mankind with Him" as you say and "He hath done whatsoever he hath pleased" (Ps 115:3) as the Psalmist says, and salvation is "not of him that WILLETH, nor of him that RUNNETH, but of God that showeth mercy" as Paul says (Rom 9:16); then why aren't all men saved? (Luke 16:23) If salvation is based on "freedom to choose" then it is based on the will of man. Paul says "it is NOT of him that willeth."
@theearstohear So easy to understando to all man that havo no other to give understanding to us besides Jesus Christ. Do you believe in Calvin/Augustinus/greek phylosophers? Sad!
HE create the universe perfect.
Satan called angels and man to his side - he is the father of the lies.
Eve and Adam were fooled by him but they choose to follow him.
That's why not all men will be saved - his own will AND the bad seed received in Éden in the humans heart. That's all!
@casadapazaosdeabraao - I'm quoting the apostle Paul, the Psalmist and the Lord Jesus Christ; not Calvin, Augustine or Greek philosophers. It is true that Adam and Eve chose to disobey, but this does not imply that they can fix the problem through choice. One could choose to commit suicide, but this does not imply that one could choose to fix that problem after the act is committed. Dead men (Eph 2:1) can't be saved by their choice, they must be saved by God's grace alone.
@casadapazaosdeabraao - The scriptures DO NOT teach that you have to understand in order to get to the Father. They teach that man in his natural state is WITHOUT understanding (Rom 3:11). The Lord Jesus Christ taught "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word" and so "he that is OF GOD heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not because ye are not of God." (John 8:43,47) If you are a disciple of Christ, you would do well to study his teachings.
@theearstohear I'm sorry, but your source of knowlege passes THRU many religious, freemasons, phylosophers. Just like Jehovah Witnesses, Romanists, Adventists, Mormons, Calvinists have another human way to "understand" The Bible differently from what actually IS The Word of The Creator inside ths texts.
ONE is The Spirit of Truth.
But many "angels" try to bring a "revelation" of those texts.
That started with the same lier facing Eve and keeps so far thru those "interpreters"..
@casadapazaosdeabraao - Your ability to make wild, baseless accusations about the source of someone's understanding is only surpassed by your complete ignorance of scripture and of the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.
@theearstohear Then they get some stones to throw on him...
Man, you don't need to win a discussion. That's fleshy!!!
The Creator is, and will always be, The Only ONE Winner AND
HIS Word (not yours) will last forever. His Holy Spirit ONLY can open The Word of The Creator to you, not Calvin, Smith, Russel, the pope, Kardec (another false name), etc.(2Pe 3:16; Mt 16:17; Gl 1:8).
You started to show up you don't have ears to hear at all... (Jo 7:47-49, Jo 8:34).
@casadapazaosdeabraao - "And Paul, AS HIS MANNER WAS, went in unto them, and three sabbath days REASONED with them out of the scriptures" (Acts17:2) Reasoning from the scriptures is precisely the method used by the apostle Paul. The Lord Jesus Christ said that "the scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35) and built logical arguments based on the precepts of scripture. "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which [you] call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers" (Acts 24:14)
@theearstohear Paul was ful ofThe Holy Spirit, not full of all doctrine he got from other then Yeshua (Jesus). He got the Law of Grace straight from every other regenerated human gets too: from ABOVE (James 3:15).
No one that call himself calvinist is a genuine christian just like a half-man is not a man anymore, or never was it.
The seed must be THE SAME that made christians filled with The Holy Spirit that we can see in The Bible - any other "fruit" is bad.
@casadapazaosdeabraao - I am not a Calvinist and did not get my doctrine from John Calvin but from the Lord Jesus Christ who taught "No man can come except the father which hath sent me draw him and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44) All I've quoted to you is the bible - maybe it's the bible that you hate? The vitriol and passion you have for defending your ersatz theology is no substitute for knowing what the Lord actually taught.
@theearstohear Reasoning like bereans is a good thing. They used The Word of The Creator to enlight the words they heard. Just like the apostle Paul.
But reasoning inspired by the "god of the desert" is exactly what those leaders that I've mentioned used to be. They heard "angels", they heard the flesh, they tried to own kingdoms and all kind of dead-human honors, they invented false doctrines, they forced people to follow an obbey them...
@casadapazaosdeabraao - I'm not quoting angels or the flesh - I'm quoting the bible. The things you say make you sound like you are completely unhinged. Why don't you breathe into a paper bag for about 10 minutes and then open up your bible and read the Gospel of John. Every time you see that God is in control of man's salvation and that man is powerless in fixing his sin problem, put a check there. Call me when God proves to you that he's sovereign in salvation, better yet, thank God.
I think it's important to point out that John says that Christ *is* the propitiation for sins for the group he's referring to. It doesn't say he is the potential propitiation or potential atonement. So Christ is literally, not hypothetically, the savior of every individual in the group John is referring to by saying "ours and the whole world". Thus, if you think that phrase means "every single individual human that will ever live", we have universalism. Universalism is false teaching. (cont)
@skalapunk (cont from previous). Thus it seems that John is speaking of us (Him and the Gentiles) and the "whole world" as being "not only Gentiles, but Jews, too. This mirrors what John also said in John 11:51-52 when he said "Christ died not for the nation, but also to gather the children of God who are scattered abroad" (all of God's chosen people, the elect)
Thus, 1 Jn 2:2 is in no way teaching universal atonement. It's in perfect accord with reformed teaching.
@skalapunk (also cont.) it seems to me that the Arminian understanding of this verse actually smashes foreign ideas into the text. They insist that the phrase "the propitiation for not only our sins, but the whole world" means "the potential propitiation for every single human being that will ever walk the planet". But as I pointed out, John doesn't say Christ is the potential propitiation, but the actual one.
So who is guilty of misusing scripture? Not the Calvinists.
@skalapunk - Good point. The Arminian INSISTS that Jesus Christ is the propitiation for every man, woman and child who ever lived. They also INSIST that this propitation does not actually appease God in and of itself. In so doing they define "propitiation" as "not propitation." With that degree of latitude in defining words we might as well say that "eternal salvation" really means "eternal damnation." Their hermeneutic reduces the bible to nonsense.
Looks like a trailSeems like one must be degree in the Bible to get a understanding on what it saysHOW sad,Tyndall(I think that is how you spell his name)Wanted a Bible in the hands of every plow boy in England. To bad they would not be able to understand at least without some "college educated scholar telling them what to think!...why can't all be all, every be every, world be world...there is only two in the "world" those you believe what GOD says(and did) and those who don't. 1cor15:3-5
One wonders what Sungenis was trying to accomplish here. You'd think he was trying to get White to admit that the Bible doesn't come with a little "and this shall be James White's interpretation" sticker.
I think White handles Sungenis' questions very well, and Sungenis never really makes any kind of progress.
I dunno if you should let this video up, or pull it down, since its such a clear example of how someone can hear a completely sound argument in favor of how THE WHOLE WORLD does not mean every single individual, and then just because universal atonement is not explicitly denied will conclude that its biblical. What a joke. I would be embarrased of putting this video up. God knowing perfectly those who would go to hell, still punished Jesus for those people's sins? what for? answer pls?
@Refutingnonsense Excuse me, SIr, but who has given you the right to police whether my videos should kept up or pulled down? I'm afraid your are denying the universality of Christ's atonement in favor of philosophical speculation. When was your view first introduced in Church history and by whom? Why was your view absent from the teachings of the earliest fathers after the death of the apostles?
@ThePristineFaith Hey, nice job of not answering the question. How you harmonize Jesus dying for everyone and yet the Father not imputing Christ's righteousness to everyone is beyond me, but hey, it's just another question you can ignore, I guess.
When was the view first introduced into church history? Uh, how about 6000 or so years ago. You know, when God first promised the seed of the woman over against the seed of the serpent. Funny how Noah (1 chosen guy) plays a part in that, huh?
@ThePristineFaith If Jesus Christ did in fact die for the sins of everyone in Hell than how could he be considered a Perfect Savior???
And how do you talk about interpreting the scripture by casting aside all tradition when all talk about the Church Fathers and how differently they interpreted it. The Bible isn't hard to understand, the reasons people continue this debate are the questions that Paul denounces in Romans 9. It seems your problem isn't with Calvinists it's with the scriptures.
@marcelobetel You have no assurance of salvation then. Because you can wake up tomorrow and choose to go to hell and you will, according to what you believe. That's no beauty. The bible clearly indicates we have assurance of salvation and in roman catholicism you have none.
@Refutingnonsense Calvin was a romanist / phylosopher in the shadows of Augustinus - another never regenerated phylosopher.
So, Calvin was another "emperor" like the leader of romanism is so far - justo moved to another address (read about him).
A believer that was regenerated can't be violent, never thinks about death to another human being - that means that romanists are NOT regenerated neither calvinists....
@marcelobetel No reply to my previous point. Calvin an "emperor"? "A believer that was regenerated can't be violent", ever? Didn't Paul say in romans 7:19 "For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing." ? Paul did evil sometimes because he wasnt perfect. Violence is evil as well so by your logic Paul wouldn't have been regenerate either. I have to wonder are you like 15 yrs old? Instead of attacking the theologian, attack the doctrine, look up Ad hominem
@Refutingnonsense A regenerated creature never acts by vilence. Paul never said he did a vilence against a human being. Your arguments "sound" like a very contentious man. Be carefull!
I have a Master already, so I don' need you to point me where I must have to look, ok?
I never said that regenerated people are perfect, but if they walk on spirit they will NEVER satisfy the flesh.
Like I said you sound like another fleshy one so far...
Paul was talking about way higher things you fall short
@marcelobetel "If they walk on spirit they will NEVER satisfy the flesh" ... Again i point you to your inconsistency. Paul didn't do what he wanted to do, Paul sinned sometimes which means he satisfied the flesh in one way or another. So was paul not walking in the spirit then? And I could care less what you think of me sir, focus on the argument not on the person giving the argument.
@Refutingnonsense Paul is NOT The Messiah. Paul is NOT The Creator. Paul is NOT my goal. My Master is The Messiah. So, when Paul said that in Rm 7:19, he was explaining about the difference between to live under The Law and born by the water and The Spirit - read all chapter 7 (so usual a calvinist do that "single verse" based statement).
Are you by The Spirit or by the flesh? What you think?
The answer for the inconsistency you've found is at ROMANS 8. Read it slowly not segmenting from 7, ok
@marcelobetel Romans 7:19 clearly indicates that regenerate people are not automatically perfect. Go read it. Second, Instead of attacking Calvin, which is an ad hominem, focus on the theology and doctrine. You don't prove anything by using such bogus logic as: "A regenerate cant ever think about violence, Calvin thought about violence, thus Calvin isnt regenerate". Are you like 13 yrs old? Your premise is false as Romans 7:19 will prove. What kind of God do you believe in anyway? My God saves.
@Refutingnonsense First of all, I believe in The Creator that have no name like GAD, another idol.
The Almighty Creator, the real One is The Father that thru HIS Son, The Verb, created everything and sent us HIS only Begotten Son to die for EVER man, that thru HIS death we can live HIS LIFE in us and THE Promise be fulfiled when we receive The Holy Spirit.
Salvation is just the beginning of The Path that we must take care to not get any wrong turn...
@marcelobetel Right,.. GAD,.. what a case. the definition of "God" refers to the creator, it's not his name and nobody uses it as God's name. So your god sent His son to die for every man, that means for everyone universally and accomplish nothing by that sole act, but to make men saveable so they can save themselves. My God accomplished the salvation of those whom He chose before the foundation of the world. My God saved His people just like the Bible says He did. I don't know who your god is.
@marcelobetel In other words the god you worship came and accomplished nothing but a potential salvation. Didn't really save anyone at the cross but made everyone saveable. Your god will forever have his desires unfulfilled because so many of those Jesus actually died for will end up in hell. And so much for his plans because man's free will is stronger than God's plans to save everyone. Your prayer for the lost is also left powerless since your god cannot violate free will to save anyone. jokes
The Creator made everything and gave to man, then man voluntarily chose to follow the suggestions of Satan and cast out the Creator's Word and took out the word hell. For this to be absolutely and completely broken it is necessary that the man voluntarily return home.
The desire of The Creator will never surpass HIS ethernal Law that guarantees freedom of choice to beings similar to Him.
It seems you do not understand a single line of The Scripture.
@Refutingnonsense The law that keeps everything moving today as sowing (for example), was created along with what we see and not see. They are part of the nature of the Creator, and He can not deny to himself. Part of it is to have mademan in His image and likeness. Like the angels followed Satan, Man. Both thru the freedom of choice. Both creatures with supernatural powers, until The Fall.
@Refutingnonsense So there is no competition between the powers of the Creator and the freedom of choice, as unregenerated calvinists think. The Creator desires, expects, the salvation of all and always wanted Israel to keep His way, according to Him alone. Is up to men to repent and get back!
All that was necessary to men salvation was done by HIM. Everything!
All debts have been paid in The Cross by The Blood of The Lamb of The Creator.
@Refutingnonsense The REAL POWER is to be able to destroy and to build thru reconciliation - mercy, love, forgiveness are HIS nature.
Calvin, Augustinus and the greek phylosophers had a different "image" of The Creator (so, it's not HIM) in their minds.
If you research a little you'll see that Augustinus (the base for Calvin's doctrines) used to describe The Creator like "the roman emperor of his dreams". Moved by wrath and hate.
That's why we can not see calvinists overflowing love...
@marcelobetel Your god's calling on humans has no effect on them whatsoever because after all it's all up to humans to choose to open their own hearts, if your god opened their hearts wouldn't that be a violation of free will? How powerful are your god's plans? Was your god surprised when Adam sinned? Did your god come up with the cross as an afterthought to the fall of man? My God planned everything with a purpose and has his plan fulfilled through various means, and nothing can thwart His plan
@Refutingnonsense And talking about "everithing planned" you must have to read the entire Bible and see The Creator been astonished more then once, sorry that He had made man on earth, calling men to His forgiveness, saying to Abraham that HE would not destroy Sodoma and Gomorrah because his intervention, changing His mind because the words of Moses, and some other proves that The Creator is actually in control but we have a realationship with Him; we're not just actors in a soap opera.
@marcelobetel You think God changes His mind? God declares this in Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure ". Read also Acts 4:27-28 it says about the gentiles, Pilates and Herod that they were gathered "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur". God has planned everything and it is clear in the Bible, learn to read it.
@Refutingnonsense You know, most of non regenerates people takes a verse from The Bible to support their idea of who The Creator is, but they never read without their own ideas. So, they never received The Truth.
Look, The Creator chenged HIS mind because HE waits for someone to fulfill the gap beteen men and HIM.
So, Moses did about the sinners in the desert. Please, read out loud Exodus 32:10-14 . It will be a great experience...
@marcelobetel This is not a meaningful conversation because you have no idea how to conduct proper exegesis. I have no clue who taught you how to read the bible and what your idea of proper interpretation is. Predestination is the Ethernal Law? You have no clue what you are talking about. Hopefully one day you will learn a little more. God Bless and give you wisdom. Bye.
@Refutingnonsense And about to "learn to read it", mas, that's only one way to understand spiritual things: spiritualy.
There's no way to understand The Bible thru another man interpretation.
That's why calvinists, romanists, jehovah witnesses, kardecists, adventists, etc. can not understand. They all have another mediator before Christ and The Creator.
Acts 4:27-28 says that The Ethernal Law for the salvation of all mankind was the main plan and still is.
@marcelobetel Go read Romans 9, Romans 8, Ephesians 1 and 2, John 6, Predestination, election, and God's sovereign plan is completely biblical and clear. Joseph understood in Genesis 45:5 when he said "because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you.". GOD SENT Joseph through the evil action of Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery. Is God responsible for evil? Gensis 50:20 "...You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good...".. And there are more examples. So read more
@Refutingnonsense Like I said, predestination is real, but not like you, Augustinus and Calvin (and his followers) understand.
Joseph in Egypt is a pre-figure of the Messiah - what keeps proving that The Creator is in control trying to teach all humanity about His plans of salvation. Think, brothers that kill, dead one that appears powerful and saves all nations because of the droughts and food shortages
So, I must ask you to think about all the exemples that I gave to you about The Creator has been surprised (positive and negatively).
We'll get to a point that The Creator is in control of the river, but the waters in between that move like they "need" to. So The Creator keeps the limits and the direction as much as the velocity, but many water molecules (humans), because they have freedom of choice, insist to go to a different course.
@Refutingnonsense About be surprised whem Adam sinned, man, believe me, The Creator can see everything. Even then He called Adam more then once (like He did with Israel an still doing with all mankind) and Adam was afraid of Him. Did The Creator have power enough to destroy Adam after that? Did HE know where Adam was? Could HE just make Adam appears right on His sight?
The propose is to keep The Creation perfect, and have a perfect relationship with men.
@Refutingnonsense Could you please read out loud a verse in The Bible that tell us to kill somebody because he/she doesn't want to believe in The Creator and in The Messiah? Or even a verse that tell us to kill people that sins or that disagree with another man that thinks that he is "the leader", "the master", "the Creator's representative on Earth"? Or even to be a governor and do all this things?
Many 13 years old kids that I know are way more spiritual then that, and they aren't regenerated
@marcelobetel You keep attacking Calvin's actions instead of his doctrines. You arent proving anything by that, but Calvin actually pleaded that Servetus wouldn't be given such a cruel death as being burnt at the stake. Servetus rejected the eternality and deity of Christ and at that time heresies of that calibre were punishible by death. That was the concensus so it wasn't just Calvin pal, plus the romanists had already passed a sentence of death in absentia against Servetus.
@marcelobetel PLUS your argument is totally bogus. You are actually trying to come up with an unpardonable sin. If Christ atoned for ALL the sins of those who believe in Him, and let's say Calvin sinned in the Servetus case, then Christ had atoned for that sin also. Unless you are actually saying that the act of violence against a human being is a DEFINITE evidence that gives 100% certainty that the individual who was violent was not regenerate at all. In that case, please quote scripture.
@Refutingnonsense BTW, to say that Calvin only "thought" about violence is an absurd...
...that just proves that calvinists are only like sport teams fans. Even that team is a fiasco they can get a gun to shoot some if he/she says something about that...
Calvin was just another political leader like the romans leader. That was "protestantism". - catholics that couldn't pay more taxes to Rome...
...even after that, they still remained catholics - not regenerated, like YOU said.
@marcelobetel Romans 7:19 clearly indicates that regenerate people are not automatically perfect. Go read it. Second, Instead of attacking Calvin, which is an ad hominem, focus on the theology and doctrine. You don't prove anything by using such bogus logic as: "A regenerate cant ever think about violence, Calvin thought about violence, thus Calvin isnt regenerate". Are you like 13 yrs old? Your premise is false as Romans 7:19 will prove. What kind of God do you believe in anyway? My God saves.
Says he who understands "world" to mean "each and every person to ever live on the earth, ever." What is the justification of that interpretation? Is that letting the text speak for itself, or is it begging the question? White's point concerning "propitiation" was valid and left unanswered.
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Furthermore, if you favor the Papist understanding of this text, you have to answer to the fact that Fathers like Hilary and Bede understood this verse as White does.
@AgApE010 Propitiation does not work in the manner that you suggest. Repentance of the person being propitiated (Isaiah 1:11-20) is also a requirement. There's no way to get around this, Scripturally.
The propitiation (which is an atonement that restores the one it is given for to God) is applied by grace through faith, both of which are a gift of God. Furthermore, in the NT, repentance is not a work, i.e., "stop sinning", as Arminian preachers suggest. Rather, the word μετανοέω , and its variations in the text, means to change one's mind concerning something. For example... continued
continued ...For example, Peter says this to the Jews in Acts 2 who had rejected Christ and thought Him a blasphemer and not the Messiah. Peter was telling them to change their minds concerning Him when he says "Repent" in Acts 2:38 in response to their question "Brethren, what shall we do?" He wasn't saying "stop sinning in order to receive salvation." That's is works-salvation and totally dismantles the entire concept of grace.
Colossians 2:13-15: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
@ThePristineFaith Is it your belief that Isaiah was condemning the sacrificial system n Isaiah 1:11-20 or that he was condemining the religious pretenses of the people. Could you in your own words define the term propitation? I would ask that you would not take these questions as being asked arrogantly. I do ask them in humility though I do take the position that Christ did not propitiate the sins of every single human being that ever lived.
Man! Some payment or propitiation that is of jesus. I guess it wasn't good enough to keep 'the many who find the broad way' out of hell. If he died for everyone, adolf hitler got out of hell then. Sounds like you serve a false god pristine faith if you think jesus attonment kept evil unrepented men and women out of hell. So who does go to hell? Jesus's payment for sin would be bogus if it didn't keep men out of hell.
@weRwilsons There is a difference between the provision of the atonement (for all men, the bible plainly states this) and the application of the atonement (limited to those who respond). I might ask you if you think the "elect" are born saved, or are the elect saved when they respond in faith to the gospel?
Nonsense, for Jesus' atonement is substitutionary, as per Isaiah 53, Galatians 2, and countless other texts. So when Jesus died, He actually took the punishment for His people's sins. You say that He took the punishment for the sins of every single human being ever. If that's true, their sins are paid for already and thus there is no longer any wrath to be satisfied in Hell... continued
@AgApE010 Propitiation does not work in the manner that you suggest. Repentance of the person being propitiated (Isaiah 1:11-20) is also a requirement. There's no way to get around this, Scripturally.
The elect aren't born saved, but the elect WILL BE saved. Therefore, all that Jesus died for WILL believe and be forgiven, so that His suffering isn't in vain. Your view, on the hand, has Jesus suffering for people whom He won't save, or, according to your understanding, whom He knew wouldn't believe in the first place.
If Christ died for every individual who ever lived upon the face of the earth, then every individual who ever lived upon the face of the earth is saved (Universalism). John 3:26 says that "all men" went to see Jesus beyond the Jordan...does this mean you and I were there? Does it mean that every individual in the Roman world at that time was there? No...of course not. If I say the whole world watched Neil Armstrong land on the moon in 1969, does that mean every individual or every nation?
Jesus died to atone for all of my sins. Jesus did not die to atone for the sins of every person in history, lest all accounts of Jesus describing those lost souls who suffer that fate be in error. Just because the Bible doesn't say "Limited Atonement" anywhere, Christians shouldn't discard it as erroneous biblical doctrine. The Bible doesn't say "Trinity" anywhere either, but every Catholic holds to that teaching. Unfortunately, they don't really understand what that means regarding this topic.
We are given a whole list of people who won't be in Heaven,so if you are trying to say everyone ends up there,then you are forgetting or leaving out much of the Bible.
@Hello1689 I don't have the time or energy to "debate" with u any longer if ur going to bombard me with meaningless questions. Stick with Calvin if u must. U will never be in a position to recognise, even the possibility, that u are wrong in ur doctrine and approach if u don't step back and prayerfully consider what the Gospel is and how u approach it with others. While u do, have a read of 1 Cor 1:11-13 and ask the LORD to open ur eyes.
LORD, please help this "Calvinist" bro to understand.
@RPM11111 Jesus came to save HIS PEOPLE,THE SHEEP who come when He calls.The Pharisees also said the whole world went out after Jesus,did this mean everyone in the world?The Pharisees weren't following after Him and they were part of the world,right?
Your approach to the Gospel and the Scriptures is quite something. Each time I listen to Calvinists it appears, to understand the Gospel, one requires a level of intellect that is hard to come by: One must understand hermeneutics; one must be able to make words in the Bible say things they don't actually say; one must be able to pick and choose what the context of particular Scripture is to suit one's own doctrines. The Holy Spirit is left somewhat redundant with your approach.
Woooh...for the first time, White seemed kind of nervous. Notice him moving that pen! I remember amany years ago I personally saw White and Sungenis debate on "justification by faith" and the latter, as I heard it, won the debate because he was more clearly following the Biblical text. I can't believe a Catholic stumped White...
Oh, you're very clever - "biblical hermeneutics". Calvinism must be true then.
In answer to both questions - Yes.
Biblical hermeneutics doesn't allow you to defend a doctrine on comparison of 2 verses, or 3 or 4 or 5 for that matter.
But since you set the tone, try reading the context and notice the word "may". Then read 1 Corinthians 9:22 "To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become *ALL* things to *ALL* men so that by all possible means I might save *SOME*."
James White has to interpret it that way - it's the only way he can interpret it as a calvinist.
Same with 1 Tim 4:10 "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."
Acts 13:48 is the most unambiguous verse on salvation,it says,When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.
The particularity is ALL who were chosen for eternal life,some translations say..and as many as were appointed.Not even all the gentiles that heard God's word that day were chosen to believe.Unsaved men hate the fact that God has free will to choose His own sheep,it crushes their pride.
CBALLEN 3 weeks ago
All men Gentile and Jew,Fat and skinny,all colors,all economic brackets,all nations,slave and free,man and women,old and young contain God's elect people and every person who Jesus died to save will be in Heaven,not one that He died for will be in Hell.Jesus died to actually save specific individuals and took the wrath for their specific sins.Think for a minute,if Jesus died for ALL MEN &THEIR SINS God would have no wrath to pour out on the wicked and He still has plenty,Jesus SAVED people.
CBALLEN 3 weeks ago
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Calvinism/Doctrines of Grace/Reformed Theology are from the pit of Hell.....they are heresies that make God Almighty a sinner and not just a sinner but the Author of ALL sin.
Every child raped....every women beaten...every person murdered...every deceitful business deal...every cruelty man has done, was authored by God. It is a blasphemous false religion and many otherwise fine Bible teachers are promoting it today. MacArthur, Sproul, Piper, are some of them. Flee and Repent of Calvinism!!
willpower242 1 month ago
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The Calvinist are RIGHT that only those who God grants faith to can be saved, The Arminianist are RIGHT that Christ dies for ALL. The TRUTH is that he died for all but only hs elect will believe now but ALL will believe eventually. He is truly the saviour of all.
jeepsterrr 1 month ago
The Calvinist are RIGHT that only those who God grants faith to can be saved, The Arminianist are RIGHT that Christ dies for ALL. The TRUTH is that he dis for all but only hs elect will beieve now but ALL will believe eventually. He is truly the saviour of all.
jeepsterrr 1 month ago
@jeepsterrr - Successful saviors save things. Maybe Hasselhoff isn't able to save 'em all, but the Lord Jesus Christ saved his people from their sins (Matt 1:21), every last one of His sheep - "My SHEEP hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:27-29).
theearstohear 1 month ago
@theearstohear But I have not disagree with anything you have said. Successful saviours succeed. This is why all shall be saved. All are given and all will eventually come. He sent his son to be the saviour of the world and he saved the world. Simple and amazing and beautiful.
jeepsterrr 1 month ago
@jeepsterrr - Universalism turns a blind eye to the numerous passages in the bible that teach the eternal punishment of the wicked. (Matt 23:33, Luke 16:22-23, Mark 9:43-48) The scriptures must be rightly divided (II Tim 2:15). That means that each scripture must be rightly understood in its context but also in the broader context of the precepts established elsewhere in scripture. Universalism does not square with the passages that preach eternal punishment and is therefore untenable.
theearstohear 1 month ago
@theearstohear Nonesense. The passages you quote do not contain any Greek word that means eternal. If you believe god will torture people forever you clearly believe God is a sadist. Scripture must interpret scripture which is why your position is untenable. Refer to any "literal" translation and you will read of "age abiding correction" NOT eternal punishment. As in Adam all died even so in Christ shall all be made alive. This is the truth GOD is not a sadist.
jeepsterrr 1 month ago
@jeepsterrr - - Your "age of abiding correction" is literally, "aionios" - perpetual, eternal, everlasting, without end, never to cease; "kolasis" - punishment, torment, correction. (Matt 25:46) That sound you hear is the false doctrine of UNIVERSALISM being ground into oblivion by the truth; like a angry white sow spasmodicaly flailing atop a bushel-basket of gilded holiday eggs. CRUSH!
theearstohear 1 month ago
@theearstohear You do speak total garbage. aionios does not mean eternal. For example the word is used in Luke 12:34. If it meant "eternity" it would read "The sons of this ETERNITY marry! There are many other examples that prove beyond doubt that this word does not mean eternity. You are teaching that God is going to torture the bulk of his creation forever. This is an evil doctrine of demons that maligns God's character.
jeepsterrr 1 month ago
@jeepsterrr - The Greek word "aionios" occurs 71 times in the New Testament. It is translated "eternal" 42 times, "everlasting" 25 times, "world" 3 times and "for ever" 1 time. It does NOT appear in Luke 12:34. There are NO other examples. God is Holy, he punishes sin because he is just. The everlasting punishment of the wicked does not malign God's character, it affirms it. SPANK! Dang, that's gonna leave a mark!
theearstohear 1 month ago
@theearstohear That should have been LUKE 20:34. The word is also used in Matthew 24:3 According to your idea the desciples asked Jesus what the sign would be of the end of eternity! Really! Does that make sense? You are believing a wicked lie. If you think it affirms God's character to eternally torture people then you are worshipping a false idol and not the true God in whom ALL the families of the earth will be blessed.
jeepsterrr 1 month ago
@jeepsterrr - The word in Luke 20:34 is the noun "aion" (G165) not the adjective "aionios" (G166). They are interpreted differently because they are different words with different meaning. Context is important here. For example, in Matt 25:46 the word is used twice. One of the references is to where God's people end up - "life ETERNAL." I submit that the same meaning that applies to the duration "life" in this verse, likewise applies to the duration of the punishment.
theearstohear 1 month ago
Great video! Thanks for posting! It really drives home Christ's propitiation for the elect. I love Dr White, he really knows the scriptures and knows to compare scripture with scripture as he has done here.
sjennings86 2 months ago
White kills it again....
manrelic 2 months ago
Also, I believe it to be theological unsound and inconsistent as well to claim Jesus died for everyone's sins with the intention to save all of mankind. For if Matt. 1:21 is true, then Jesus' atonement WILL save those whom it was intended for (that is "His people from their sins"). I view this as particular redemption from a perfect Savior, and not a savior who tries but sometimes fails to save; but one who accomplishes all His purpose (Isaiah 46:10) and whose will cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2).
EternalGFX1 2 months ago
@EternalGFX1 Jesus did die for mankind, and if we are not saved, in the end it is not because he failed... it is because we failed. do you really believe he would create some one to put them in hell. Just o prove how powerful he is if I thought this I would not be a Christian> Duh!
myladyschild 1 month ago
@myladyschild - Jesus Christ died for the sheep (John 10:11) and all are not sheep (John 10:26). Basing your theology on "do you really believe" statements is not biblical theology, it's baseless conjecture. The very notion you say would turn you from the faith is, in fact, the teaching of scripture. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Rom 9:21) Search the scriptures to see if these things are so. (Acts 17:11)
theearstohear 1 month ago
@theearstohear So the potter, made you a sheep and others he did not. is that what your saying " do you really believe" statement is coming from an ordinary person i am not trying to impress anybody
myladyschild 1 month ago
@myladyschild - Yes. The Lord God chose a people from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). He sent His Son to die for their sins and perfect them before God's throne by HIS sacrifice (Heb 10:14). He sends his spirit to regenerate them and give them faith (Gal 4:6,, 5:22). It is not by "our" obedience that we are saved, we are saved by the obedience of "one" (Rom 5:19) the Lord Jesus Christ. We are saved UNTO good works (Eph 2:10), not BY good works (Rom 3:20). I'm ordinary too. :)
theearstohear 1 month ago
I agree with James on this issue; in that we should use scripture to interpret the word kosmos for us and the author's use of that word throughout his writings. For Arminians are quick to accuse Calvinist of presupposing things on text, yet they likewise presuppose the word world has to mean every single individual that has and will ever live. We certainly can't let that interpretation be deemed accurate in light of verses such as Luke 2:1 or John 12:19, since the word world can't mean that.....
EternalGFX1 2 months ago
For important truths on how the Bible proves the teachings of traditional Catholic faith, its necessity for salvation, proof of creation and miracles, as well as other important spiritual and secular issues, please visit channel: MHFM1.
8marioch 2 months ago
I guess the point would be that as a calvinist ("reformed") Mr. White believes that Christ died only for the elect, because his sacrifice is efficacious for everyone he died for, hence, he must not have died for those destined for perdition or else Jesus "failed" those people. In his scheme then "the whole world" must only be "all kinds of men" (individuals from each category of race, ethnic group, etc).
XSC3 3 months ago
"Jew and Gentile" appears 3X in the Bible???
Perhaps the phrase exactly in 3 words, but Romans, especially the first chapters, is a compare and contrast between Jew and Gentile. Also the word "circumcised and uncircumcised" is used interchangeably. I would bet that the contrast between Jew and Gentile is used at least 50 times in Romans, alone.
RomansGalatians 3 months ago
OK, let's supposse that arminians are right..... that Jesus died for every single human person on the planet.... then Why are not all people saved??? particulary Why are unbelievers not saved?? didn't christ died in the cross also for their sin of unbelief??
physicist21 3 months ago
@physicist21 - Great point. The reason is that while Arminians insist that Christ died for everyone, they also insist that his death did not accomplish salvation for anyone.
theearstohear 3 weeks ago
@theearstohear Yes, and not only this but also.... they do not realize that the priest in the old testament intercedes specifically for whom the sacrifice is made , If Jesus died for every single human being that ever lived... He also intercedes fot every single human being and we need to be universalists why? read Heb. 7:25
physicist21 3 weeks ago
@physicist21 - Amen, brother.
theearstohear 3 weeks ago
@theearstohear Ihave also noticed that the video said that to belive this way (referin to particular redemption) , one must first begin with cretain presuppositions brought into the text, but they don't realize that they are actually the ones bringing the presupposition that the word "world" in 1 John 2:2 means every single human being that ever lived...
physicist21 3 weeks ago
@physicist21 - Once you understand what "propitiation" is, the "world" that John has in view HAS TO BE the elect, else you've got universalism. I've done a short video on this - look for "Office Theology 108 - I John 2:2" - I think you'll find it amusing.
theearstohear 3 weeks ago
LOL, White made this chump look silly.
Haukman66 3 months ago
We all come to Scripture with a preconcieved bias. Even the non-Calvinist and Roman Catholic does. You're video should at least be honest and admit that. Rom 5 doesn't say that Christ died for "all" (which even the word "all" has to be understood in context), but says he died for many.Arguing against partucular atonement from 1 John 2:2 is probably not the strongest case. John echoing the OT, in that God's blessings aren't just as that of a tribal diety, but will go out to the whole world.
solaphyde 4 months ago
I'm commenting way to much on your videos. But sometimes it is good to see if there is any good argument on the other side.
Romans 11:11-12:
"...But through their fall, to provoke jealousy, salvation has come to the GENTILES. Now, if their fall is riches for the WORLD, and their failure riches for the GENTILES..."
We see clearly, that in the mind of the Jew, salvation to Gentiles meant salvation to the "world."
White defended fine, glad to see your going back to your roots, Rome. =)
AudioPuritans 4 months ago in playlist More videos from ThePristineFaith
Jn 11:51-52: "he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, [A: and not for the nation only], [B: but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad]."
1 John 2:2: "He is the propitiation for our sins, [A: and not for ours only] [B: but also for the sins of the whole world]."
Parallel? Seems pretty clear to me. A = referring to Jewish people. B = The children of God scattered among the Gentiles, or, the "world" as John uses the word.
AudioPuritans 4 months ago in playlist More videos from ThePristineFaith
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AudioPuritans 4 months ago in playlist More videos from ThePristineFaith
That doesnt make any sesne since John was an apostle to the Jews not to gentiles.
RobertHSengstacke 4 months ago
the desperate rationalisations and twistings calvinsits do to justify refusing to let thscriptures speak for themselves!!!!!!!. I once thought that calvinists were simply another demonination, but i am hard pressed to think that if christians at all they are anything other than carnal and deluded
Strefanasha 6 months ago
Limited Atonement is the worst blasphemy of Calvinism. To claim that universal atonement = universalism disregards the fact that the free amnesty must be received from God by persoinal application to Him in the Spirit.
ALL are atoned for but only a few receive it.
Limited Atonment? FOUL BLASPHEMY!! How can calvinists possibly know God if they misrepresent Him like this . Besides it says elsewhere GOD IS NOT WILLING THAT ANYONE PERISH. Limited Atonement denies this
Strefanasha 6 months ago
@Strefanasha - Does "atonement" mean that "Jesus paid it all" or "Jesus paid it all but you have to do something in order to make it count?" The bible's testimony is that Christ's sacrifice was utterly effectual (Heb 10:14), apart from any obedience on man's part (Rom 5:6). Anyone preaching that man has to DO something in order to make the atonement effectual is preaching the obedience of two - the bible teaches that "by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (Rom 5:19)
theearstohear 4 weeks ago
Way to go James White ...superb answers !!
Soli Deo Gloria !!
daleyboy77 7 months ago
As White said, if "world" means all humanity, John would be a universalist due to the word "propitiation". If all humanity is propitiated it is impossible for even one person to go to hell. Hell is where sinners experience God's wrath. Propitiation means God's wrath is satisfied. So ThePristineFaith: Are you a universalist? How can any person go to hell if Christ has propitiated all humanity?
ETHANGELIST 7 months ago
@ETHANGELIST Of course I'm not a universalist. I might ask you why you've apparently rejected the testimony of the early church after the death of the apostles in favor Augustinianism? In addition to Christ's propitiation another element is required: faith of the worshipper in the finished atonement of Christ. This is abundantly clear from the Old Testament.
ThePristineFaith 7 months ago
@ThePristineFaith It is impossible for anyone to go to hell if everyone has been propitiated. You believe Christ has paid for every sin for every human right? Isn't disbelief a sin? And therefore all of those who disbelief and reject Jesus are forgiven, justified by Christ's blood and therefore will never and can never go to hell? Is that true or false? If false, then why did Jesus waste His precious blood on those who would inevitably perish in hell? Does He try to save those guaranteed to die?
ETHANGELIST 7 months ago
@ThePristineFaith Would this then mean that there will be individuals in hell whose sin is completely paid for and God's justice toward them completely satisfied? Of course it also implies that ultimately it is not God who saves but salvation ultimately comes by the will and effort of man. God opens the door but the ultimate reason some are saved and others are not is because of something special within that person. There's no way around that from your perspective.
dfelcman 6 months ago
@ThePristineFaith Would this mean that there will be individuals in hell whose sin is completely paid for and God's justice toward them completely satisfied? Of course it also implies that ultimately it is not God who saves but salvation ultimately comes by the will and effort of man. God opens the door in a sense, but the ultimate reason some are saved and others are not is because of something special within that person. There's no way around that from your perspective.
dfelcman 6 months ago
You are not applying the same definition for propitiation throughout the text.
And what you said is not abundantly clear from the OT. But what is clear is that the oblation and intercession must be of equal extent, seeing that the high priest's intercession is simply a display of the oblation.(heb 9)
Does Christ ask for heathens as an inheritance and is not heard of the Father? Jn 11:42: "I know that You always hear Me."
Ps 2:8: "Ask Me and I'll give You the heathens for Your inheritance."
AudioPuritans 4 months ago in playlist More videos from ThePristineFaith
@ThePristineFaith
1) This issue was not relevant during the period of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, as they were dealing with different issues.
2) Our doctrine is NEVER to be derived from extra-Biblical sources (including Augustine).
3) If you are saying that our faith somehow "makes Christ's atonement effectual", then you do not have an ACTUAL substitutionary, propitiatory sacrifice...only a POTENTIAL one (and man controls its efficacy). This is what Calvinists reject.
R1K2G3 1 month ago
@ThePristineFaith - Why base a theological argument on the post apostolic early church? If the bible is both sufficient and perspicuous then what ANY man has to say is irrelevant unless it fits the scriptures. All that matters is that you compare scripture with scripture and rightly divide the word. Faith is not a requirement of the covenant of salvation (Heb 10:14), it is a provision of the covenant of salvation (Gal 5:22). Salvation is by the obedience of "one." (Rom 5:19)
theearstohear 1 month ago
@ETHANGELIST Because you accept the Protestant heresy that someone "saved" cannot lose their salvation-the merits of Christ are infinite-more than enough to atone for all the sins ever committed-and considering the titanic evil of the sins of mankind that required a Divine feat--yet the saved must avoid sin and do good as was the example of Our Lord-or do you think murderers, blasphemers, devil worshippers, and sorcerers who once "accepted Christ as Savior" can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven?
RPenta 6 months ago
@RPenta "or do you think murderers, blasphemers, devil worshippers, and sorcerers who once "accepted Christ as Savior" can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven?"
As usual, those who reject eternal security argue against it using their own version of the doctrine instead the real one. That's called a straw man argument. Once saved always saved goes hand-in-hand with persevering to the end in faith. Everyone who is eternally secure will never die an unbeliever, they will always die a true Christian
ETHANGELIST 6 months ago
@ETHANGELIST I did not say they were "unbelievers" merely that they committed grave and unrepentent sins.
The essential problem with Calvinists is that they read the NT through a few passages from St. Paul-the "rosetta stone" of Christianity. Start with the Gospels and read St. Paul through them-after all, that is what Paul keeps saying he is preaching. But I understand why they do that; because Jesus puts such emphasis on obeying God, keeping the commandments and avoiding sin.
RPenta 6 months ago
@ETHANGELIST Persevering to the end-in other words, avoiding sin and doing good works-ok, you win.
RPenta 6 months ago
@RPenta Oh and "Accepting Christ" is not found once in the Bible, but "believe in", "receive", "faith" and "know" Christ is.
Do you really think you, as a sinner, can earn God's approval and eternal life by good works even though God is so holy just 1 sin makes you deserve eternal hell in His eyes? Hebrews 11:6 says it is impossible to please God without faith, it doesn't say without works. We need the righteousness of Christ, not our own, because we fall short.
ETHANGELIST 6 months ago
@ETHANGELIST No that has never been the Catholic or EO position but good works are necessary as Jesus commands us to do as He did. Calvinists also overlook the import of the parable of the sheep and the goats-these are what Catholics would call "sins of omission"-which are as deadly as sins of commission.
RPenta 6 months ago
@ETHANGELIST I know Calvinists PRIDE themselves on the knowledge of the NT but try St. John 1:12.
RPenta 6 months ago
@RPenta John 1:12 says "receive" Christ, not accept. The more literal translation is receive. We're not supposed to "accept" Christ, He's supposed to accept us.
ETHANGELIST 6 months ago
@RPenta - Read on to v13, "which WERE BORN... of God." The verb tenses employed here establish that these people were born again PRIOR to ever receiving Christ by faith. This is evident in numerous NT passages - "He who IS OF GOD heareth God's words" (John 8:47), "he that... believeth... IS PASSED from death unto life." (John 5:24), "Whosoever believeth... IS BORN (literally "has been born") OF GOD." (I John 5:1)
theearstohear 4 weeks ago
@ETHANGELIST Why would being a universalist be so bad? Your argument that sinners must experience hell needs another theological visit. What if all judgment statements were penultimate statements? What about apocalyptic writings? I am amazed at the theology people hold simply on ideas of hell and punishment. If all humanity is saved, it will be because of Jesus' atoning work. Why can't we understand that we really know very little of what happens after death. Theological hubris is the worst.
Mitdale1 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST - Amen, brother. That's a great point. It is also one that I have made before in a short video entitled "Office Theology 108 - I John 2:2"
theearstohear 1 month ago
@theearstohear Thank you! ;-)
ETHANGELIST 4 weeks ago
James White's answers were very good actually. Part of sound exegesis is to look into the author's context and the author's use of the same words. In this case cosmos. I believe Limited Atonement is so abundantly obvious to every NT writer, that every time they mention "all" or "world" or "all men" they automatically assume their readers would know it means all of the elect or every type of man.
ETHANGELIST 7 months ago
hey that music sounds veryy familar.. Oh yeah, Its on the Arminian Altar call CD! =D
Aletheia828 8 months ago
The propiciation is for all, for every human being. But it works only for those who accept that.
This does not diminish the greatness of salvation in Christ, right?
Of course not!
For me tho mention that the Kingdom of The Heavens belongs to the children is enough agains calvinism...
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@marcelobetel - If I went to the bank and paid off your mortgage, you WOULD NOT OWE next month's payment, whether you believed the good news of the debt being paid or not. You're gonna look pretty strange to the teller as you insist upon making payment on a closed account that is paid in full. The gospel is good news for God's people because Jesus it got the job done. That's the pre-existing truth that we lay hold of by faith and why we turn away form dead works for salvation.
theearstohear 4 weeks ago
@theearstohear Well, the pre-existing thig is THE CREATOR, HIS LOVE, HIS WORD, THE EVERLASTING LAW, that is the foundation of this: The Creator is LOVE and created only perfect things. This unique CREATOR wants all mankind with HIM. BUT in The Ethernal Law, The Creator and all spiritual individuals have freedom to chose. 'Cause HE have it, HE gave it to the ones that HE loves. Every thing out of this is justa another LIE like that one offered to Eve.
casadapazaosdeabraao 3 weeks ago
@casadapazaosdeabraao - If God "wants all [of] mankind with Him" as you say and "He hath done whatsoever he hath pleased" (Ps 115:3) as the Psalmist says, and salvation is "not of him that WILLETH, nor of him that RUNNETH, but of God that showeth mercy" as Paul says (Rom 9:16); then why aren't all men saved? (Luke 16:23) If salvation is based on "freedom to choose" then it is based on the will of man. Paul says "it is NOT of him that willeth."
theearstohear 3 weeks ago
@theearstohear So easy to understando to all man that havo no other to give understanding to us besides Jesus Christ. Do you believe in Calvin/Augustinus/greek phylosophers? Sad!
HE create the universe perfect.
Satan called angels and man to his side - he is the father of the lies.
Eve and Adam were fooled by him but they choose to follow him.
That's why not all men will be saved - his own will AND the bad seed received in Éden in the humans heart. That's all!
Be free!
casadapazaosdeabraao 3 weeks ago
@casadapazaosdeabraao - I'm quoting the apostle Paul, the Psalmist and the Lord Jesus Christ; not Calvin, Augustine or Greek philosophers. It is true that Adam and Eve chose to disobey, but this does not imply that they can fix the problem through choice. One could choose to commit suicide, but this does not imply that one could choose to fix that problem after the act is committed. Dead men (Eph 2:1) can't be saved by their choice, they must be saved by God's grace alone.
theearstohear 3 weeks ago
@theearstohear You can keep quoting the hole Bible, but until you keep trying to understand the tet thru Calvin, you'll NEVER get to The Father.
casadapazaosdeabraao 3 weeks ago
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theearstohear 3 weeks ago
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@casadapazaosdeabraao - The scriptures DO NOT teach that you have to understand in order to get to the Father. They teach that man in his natural state is WITHOUT understanding (Rom 3:11). The Lord Jesus Christ taught "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word" and so "he that is OF GOD heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not because ye are not of God." (John 8:43,47) If you are a disciple of Christ, you would do well to study his teachings.
theearstohear 3 weeks ago
@theearstohear I'm sorry, but your source of knowlege passes THRU many religious, freemasons, phylosophers. Just like Jehovah Witnesses, Romanists, Adventists, Mormons, Calvinists have another human way to "understand" The Bible differently from what actually IS The Word of The Creator inside ths texts.
ONE is The Spirit of Truth.
But many "angels" try to bring a "revelation" of those texts.
That started with the same lier facing Eve and keeps so far thru those "interpreters"..
casadapazaosdeabraao 3 weeks ago
@casadapazaosdeabraao - Your ability to make wild, baseless accusations about the source of someone's understanding is only surpassed by your complete ignorance of scripture and of the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.
theearstohear 3 weeks ago
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casadapazaosdeabraao 3 weeks ago
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@theearstohear Then they get some stones to throw on him...
Man, you don't need to win a discussion. That's fleshy!!!
The Creator is, and will always be, The Only ONE Winner AND
HIS Word (not yours) will last forever. His Holy Spirit ONLY can open The Word of The Creator to you, not Calvin, Smith, Russel, the pope, Kardec (another false name), etc.(2Pe 3:16; Mt 16:17; Gl 1:8).
You started to show up you don't have ears to hear at all... (Jo 7:47-49, Jo 8:34).
casadapazaosdeabraao 3 weeks ago
@casadapazaosdeabraao - "And Paul, AS HIS MANNER WAS, went in unto them, and three sabbath days REASONED with them out of the scriptures" (Acts17:2) Reasoning from the scriptures is precisely the method used by the apostle Paul. The Lord Jesus Christ said that "the scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35) and built logical arguments based on the precepts of scripture. "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which [you] call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers" (Acts 24:14)
theearstohear 3 weeks ago
@theearstohear Paul was ful ofThe Holy Spirit, not full of all doctrine he got from other then Yeshua (Jesus). He got the Law of Grace straight from every other regenerated human gets too: from ABOVE (James 3:15).
No one that call himself calvinist is a genuine christian just like a half-man is not a man anymore, or never was it.
The seed must be THE SAME that made christians filled with The Holy Spirit that we can see in The Bible - any other "fruit" is bad.
casadapazaosdeabraao 3 weeks ago
@casadapazaosdeabraao - I am not a Calvinist and did not get my doctrine from John Calvin but from the Lord Jesus Christ who taught "No man can come except the father which hath sent me draw him and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44) All I've quoted to you is the bible - maybe it's the bible that you hate? The vitriol and passion you have for defending your ersatz theology is no substitute for knowing what the Lord actually taught.
theearstohear 3 weeks ago
@theearstohear Reasoning like bereans is a good thing. They used The Word of The Creator to enlight the words they heard. Just like the apostle Paul.
But reasoning inspired by the "god of the desert" is exactly what those leaders that I've mentioned used to be. They heard "angels", they heard the flesh, they tried to own kingdoms and all kind of dead-human honors, they invented false doctrines, they forced people to follow an obbey them...
casadapazaosdeabraao 3 weeks ago
@casadapazaosdeabraao - I'm not quoting angels or the flesh - I'm quoting the bible. The things you say make you sound like you are completely unhinged. Why don't you breathe into a paper bag for about 10 minutes and then open up your bible and read the Gospel of John. Every time you see that God is in control of man's salvation and that man is powerless in fixing his sin problem, put a check there. Call me when God proves to you that he's sovereign in salvation, better yet, thank God.
theearstohear 3 weeks ago
This convinced me that John didn't mean every single individual. White held his own.
hazyb71 8 months ago
If followed to its logical conclusions the denial of limited atonement would lead to either an immoral God or a God of Universalism.
neostunna 9 months ago
John 17:9 9 "I ask on their behalf ; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whomYou have given Me; for they are Yours;
Thinkingout4u 11 months ago
I can't say Dr. White's point was invalidated. I am not a Calvinist but feel this video didn't sway me away from that position.
robotwookie 1 year ago
I think it's important to point out that John says that Christ *is* the propitiation for sins for the group he's referring to. It doesn't say he is the potential propitiation or potential atonement. So Christ is literally, not hypothetically, the savior of every individual in the group John is referring to by saying "ours and the whole world". Thus, if you think that phrase means "every single individual human that will ever live", we have universalism. Universalism is false teaching. (cont)
skalapunk 1 year ago
@skalapunk (cont from previous). Thus it seems that John is speaking of us (Him and the Gentiles) and the "whole world" as being "not only Gentiles, but Jews, too. This mirrors what John also said in John 11:51-52 when he said "Christ died not for the nation, but also to gather the children of God who are scattered abroad" (all of God's chosen people, the elect)
Thus, 1 Jn 2:2 is in no way teaching universal atonement. It's in perfect accord with reformed teaching.
skalapunk 1 year ago
@skalapunk (also cont.) it seems to me that the Arminian understanding of this verse actually smashes foreign ideas into the text. They insist that the phrase "the propitiation for not only our sins, but the whole world" means "the potential propitiation for every single human being that will ever walk the planet". But as I pointed out, John doesn't say Christ is the potential propitiation, but the actual one.
So who is guilty of misusing scripture? Not the Calvinists.
skalapunk 1 year ago
@skalapunk - Good point. The Arminian INSISTS that Jesus Christ is the propitiation for every man, woman and child who ever lived. They also INSIST that this propitation does not actually appease God in and of itself. In so doing they define "propitiation" as "not propitation." With that degree of latitude in defining words we might as well say that "eternal salvation" really means "eternal damnation." Their hermeneutic reduces the bible to nonsense.
theearstohear 4 weeks ago
Looks like a trailSeems like one must be degree in the Bible to get a understanding on what it saysHOW sad,Tyndall(I think that is how you spell his name)Wanted a Bible in the hands of every plow boy in England. To bad they would not be able to understand at least without some "college educated scholar telling them what to think!...why can't all be all, every be every, world be world...there is only two in the "world" those you believe what GOD says(and did) and those who don't. 1cor15:3-5
MR1EAR 1 year ago
One wonders what Sungenis was trying to accomplish here. You'd think he was trying to get White to admit that the Bible doesn't come with a little "and this shall be James White's interpretation" sticker.
I think White handles Sungenis' questions very well, and Sungenis never really makes any kind of progress.
patrckhh20 1 year ago
I dunno if you should let this video up, or pull it down, since its such a clear example of how someone can hear a completely sound argument in favor of how THE WHOLE WORLD does not mean every single individual, and then just because universal atonement is not explicitly denied will conclude that its biblical. What a joke. I would be embarrased of putting this video up. God knowing perfectly those who would go to hell, still punished Jesus for those people's sins? what for? answer pls?
Refutingnonsense 1 year ago 7
@Refutingnonsense Excuse me, SIr, but who has given you the right to police whether my videos should kept up or pulled down? I'm afraid your are denying the universality of Christ's atonement in favor of philosophical speculation. When was your view first introduced in Church history and by whom? Why was your view absent from the teachings of the earliest fathers after the death of the apostles?
ThePristineFaith 1 year ago
@ThePristineFaith Hey, nice job of not answering the question. How you harmonize Jesus dying for everyone and yet the Father not imputing Christ's righteousness to everyone is beyond me, but hey, it's just another question you can ignore, I guess.
When was the view first introduced into church history? Uh, how about 6000 or so years ago. You know, when God first promised the seed of the woman over against the seed of the serpent. Funny how Noah (1 chosen guy) plays a part in that, huh?
rofyle 1 year ago
@ThePristineFaith If Jesus Christ did in fact die for the sins of everyone in Hell than how could he be considered a Perfect Savior???
And how do you talk about interpreting the scripture by casting aside all tradition when all talk about the Church Fathers and how differently they interpreted it. The Bible isn't hard to understand, the reasons people continue this debate are the questions that Paul denounces in Romans 9. It seems your problem isn't with Calvinists it's with the scriptures.
EverydayRevival 10 months ago
@Refutingnonsense That's the beauty!
You can change your end.because the Grace of The Creator..
...but calvinists can't accept that.
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@marcelobetel You have no assurance of salvation then. Because you can wake up tomorrow and choose to go to hell and you will, according to what you believe. That's no beauty. The bible clearly indicates we have assurance of salvation and in roman catholicism you have none.
Refutingnonsense 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense Calvin was a romanist / phylosopher in the shadows of Augustinus - another never regenerated phylosopher.
So, Calvin was another "emperor" like the leader of romanism is so far - justo moved to another address (read about him).
A believer that was regenerated can't be violent, never thinks about death to another human being - that means that romanists are NOT regenerated neither calvinists....
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@marcelobetel No reply to my previous point. Calvin an "emperor"? "A believer that was regenerated can't be violent", ever? Didn't Paul say in romans 7:19 "For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing." ? Paul did evil sometimes because he wasnt perfect. Violence is evil as well so by your logic Paul wouldn't have been regenerate either. I have to wonder are you like 15 yrs old? Instead of attacking the theologian, attack the doctrine, look up Ad hominem
Refutingnonsense 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense A regenerated creature never acts by vilence. Paul never said he did a vilence against a human being. Your arguments "sound" like a very contentious man. Be carefull!
I have a Master already, so I don' need you to point me where I must have to look, ok?
I never said that regenerated people are perfect, but if they walk on spirit they will NEVER satisfy the flesh.
Like I said you sound like another fleshy one so far...
Paul was talking about way higher things you fall short
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@marcelobetel "If they walk on spirit they will NEVER satisfy the flesh" ... Again i point you to your inconsistency. Paul didn't do what he wanted to do, Paul sinned sometimes which means he satisfied the flesh in one way or another. So was paul not walking in the spirit then? And I could care less what you think of me sir, focus on the argument not on the person giving the argument.
Refutingnonsense 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense Paul is NOT The Messiah. Paul is NOT The Creator. Paul is NOT my goal. My Master is The Messiah. So, when Paul said that in Rm 7:19, he was explaining about the difference between to live under The Law and born by the water and The Spirit - read all chapter 7 (so usual a calvinist do that "single verse" based statement).
Are you by The Spirit or by the flesh? What you think?
The answer for the inconsistency you've found is at ROMANS 8. Read it slowly not segmenting from 7, ok
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@marcelobetel Romans 7:19 clearly indicates that regenerate people are not automatically perfect. Go read it. Second, Instead of attacking Calvin, which is an ad hominem, focus on the theology and doctrine. You don't prove anything by using such bogus logic as: "A regenerate cant ever think about violence, Calvin thought about violence, thus Calvin isnt regenerate". Are you like 13 yrs old? Your premise is false as Romans 7:19 will prove. What kind of God do you believe in anyway? My God saves.
Refutingnonsense 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense First of all, I believe in The Creator that have no name like GAD, another idol.
The Almighty Creator, the real One is The Father that thru HIS Son, The Verb, created everything and sent us HIS only Begotten Son to die for EVER man, that thru HIS death we can live HIS LIFE in us and THE Promise be fulfiled when we receive The Holy Spirit.
Salvation is just the beginning of The Path that we must take care to not get any wrong turn...
How do you recognize a tree?
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@marcelobetel Right,.. GAD,.. what a case. the definition of "God" refers to the creator, it's not his name and nobody uses it as God's name. So your god sent His son to die for every man, that means for everyone universally and accomplish nothing by that sole act, but to make men saveable so they can save themselves. My God accomplished the salvation of those whom He chose before the foundation of the world. My God saved His people just like the Bible says He did. I don't know who your god is.
Refutingnonsense 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense That's TRUE!!! You don't.
My LORD and SAVIOR died for all to be saved just like HE came for all to be saved.
The Salvation IN HIM was declared way before the Earth formation, that's true!
But only when an individual choses to be saved he/she will.
Your GOD is the sin author. Your GOD says "I hate sin" after that !
Your is moved by hate. My LORD is LOVE (1Jo 4:8).
Your GOD throws people in hell, my LORD give us the chance to chose (Dn 30:19-20).
READ 1John 2:2 + 2:15 !!!
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@marcelobetel In other words the god you worship came and accomplished nothing but a potential salvation. Didn't really save anyone at the cross but made everyone saveable. Your god will forever have his desires unfulfilled because so many of those Jesus actually died for will end up in hell. And so much for his plans because man's free will is stronger than God's plans to save everyone. Your prayer for the lost is also left powerless since your god cannot violate free will to save anyone. jokes
Refutingnonsense 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense NOPE!
The Creator made everything and gave to man, then man voluntarily chose to follow the suggestions of Satan and cast out the Creator's Word and took out the word hell. For this to be absolutely and completely broken it is necessary that the man voluntarily return home.
The desire of The Creator will never surpass HIS ethernal Law that guarantees freedom of choice to beings similar to Him.
It seems you do not understand a single line of The Scripture.
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense The law that keeps everything moving today as sowing (for example), was created along with what we see and not see. They are part of the nature of the Creator, and He can not deny to himself. Part of it is to have mademan in His image and likeness. Like the angels followed Satan, Man. Both thru the freedom of choice. Both creatures with supernatural powers, until The Fall.
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense So there is no competition between the powers of the Creator and the freedom of choice, as unregenerated calvinists think. The Creator desires, expects, the salvation of all and always wanted Israel to keep His way, according to Him alone. Is up to men to repent and get back!
All that was necessary to men salvation was done by HIM. Everything!
All debts have been paid in The Cross by The Blood of The Lamb of The Creator.
The power is shown by the fruit of His love!
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense The REAL POWER is to be able to destroy and to build thru reconciliation - mercy, love, forgiveness are HIS nature.
Calvin, Augustinus and the greek phylosophers had a different "image" of The Creator (so, it's not HIM) in their minds.
If you research a little you'll see that Augustinus (the base for Calvin's doctrines) used to describe The Creator like "the roman emperor of his dreams". Moved by wrath and hate.
That's why we can not see calvinists overflowing love...
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@marcelobetel Your god's calling on humans has no effect on them whatsoever because after all it's all up to humans to choose to open their own hearts, if your god opened their hearts wouldn't that be a violation of free will? How powerful are your god's plans? Was your god surprised when Adam sinned? Did your god come up with the cross as an afterthought to the fall of man? My God planned everything with a purpose and has his plan fulfilled through various means, and nothing can thwart His plan
Refutingnonsense 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense NOPE! Because all that The Creator is doing is proposing HIS salvation.
Do you remember Ap 3:20?
Who is knocking?
HE have power enough to cast out that door?
What do you think?
Do you know that The Son actually IS THE WORD of The Creator?
So have in mind that THE WORD of The Creator have to be sowed in a GOOD SOIL.
You'll have to choose to folow The Messiah, forget and die for "the world", and SEEK to be baptized with the holy Ghost..
That's THE SECRET to conquer!
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense And talking about "everithing planned" you must have to read the entire Bible and see The Creator been astonished more then once, sorry that He had made man on earth, calling men to His forgiveness, saying to Abraham that HE would not destroy Sodoma and Gomorrah because his intervention, changing His mind because the words of Moses, and some other proves that The Creator is actually in control but we have a realationship with Him; we're not just actors in a soap opera.
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marcelobetel 8 months ago
@marcelobetel You think God changes His mind? God declares this in Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure ". Read also Acts 4:27-28 it says about the gentiles, Pilates and Herod that they were gathered "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur". God has planned everything and it is clear in the Bible, learn to read it.
Refutingnonsense 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense You know, most of non regenerates people takes a verse from The Bible to support their idea of who The Creator is, but they never read without their own ideas. So, they never received The Truth.
Look, The Creator chenged HIS mind because HE waits for someone to fulfill the gap beteen men and HIM.
So, Moses did about the sinners in the desert. Please, read out loud Exodus 32:10-14 . It will be a great experience...
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense No, man.
The Creator planned everything to the salvation of mankind, to have a perfect relationship with man, and to preserve men.
So you can see that The Ethernal Law is in control.
You can see traitors being murdered in The Bible, and good people (faithful to The Creator) been preserved.
We can see bad guys been used to kill bad guys and dying by some just man or woman.
So, the real predestination is The Ethernal Law!
Faithfull to The Creator ones are HIS people.
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@marcelobetel This is not a meaningful conversation because you have no idea how to conduct proper exegesis. I have no clue who taught you how to read the bible and what your idea of proper interpretation is. Predestination is the Ethernal Law? You have no clue what you are talking about. Hopefully one day you will learn a little more. God Bless and give you wisdom. Bye.
Refutingnonsense 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense That's true! You have no clue...
The Holy Spirit is the One that teatches me, not a man.
Predestination is real.
All are born in sin which is different from being a sinner - This puts people as predestined to perdition.
But if you chse to follow The Messiah and keep your mind, heart, words, body, in this path, that makes you predestinated to salvation.
Anything more then that is bad.
You don't need to "improve" The Scripture like Augustinus, Calvin, Kardek, Russel, tried.
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense And about to "learn to read it", mas, that's only one way to understand spiritual things: spiritualy.
There's no way to understand The Bible thru another man interpretation.
That's why calvinists, romanists, jehovah witnesses, kardecists, adventists, etc. can not understand. They all have another mediator before Christ and The Creator.
Acts 4:27-28 says that The Ethernal Law for the salvation of all mankind was the main plan and still is.
Unfortunately you can't see it yet.
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@marcelobetel Go read Romans 9, Romans 8, Ephesians 1 and 2, John 6, Predestination, election, and God's sovereign plan is completely biblical and clear. Joseph understood in Genesis 45:5 when he said "because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you.". GOD SENT Joseph through the evil action of Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery. Is God responsible for evil? Gensis 50:20 "...You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good...".. And there are more examples. So read more
Refutingnonsense 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense Like I said, predestination is real, but not like you, Augustinus and Calvin (and his followers) understand.
Joseph in Egypt is a pre-figure of the Messiah - what keeps proving that The Creator is in control trying to teach all humanity about His plans of salvation. Think, brothers that kill, dead one that appears powerful and saves all nations because of the droughts and food shortages
WHO is The Bread of Heavens, The Bread of Life?
Joseph was predestinated? Yes!
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense But, as you've said, that was for good!
So, I must ask you to think about all the exemples that I gave to you about The Creator has been surprised (positive and negatively).
We'll get to a point that The Creator is in control of the river, but the waters in between that move like they "need" to. So The Creator keeps the limits and the direction as much as the velocity, but many water molecules (humans), because they have freedom of choice, insist to go to a different course.
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense About be surprised whem Adam sinned, man, believe me, The Creator can see everything. Even then He called Adam more then once (like He did with Israel an still doing with all mankind) and Adam was afraid of Him. Did The Creator have power enough to destroy Adam after that? Did HE know where Adam was? Could HE just make Adam appears right on His sight?
The propose is to keep The Creation perfect, and have a perfect relationship with men.
The lake of fire was made for satan.
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense Could you please read out loud a verse in The Bible that tell us to kill somebody because he/she doesn't want to believe in The Creator and in The Messiah? Or even a verse that tell us to kill people that sins or that disagree with another man that thinks that he is "the leader", "the master", "the Creator's representative on Earth"? Or even to be a governor and do all this things?
Many 13 years old kids that I know are way more spiritual then that, and they aren't regenerated
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@marcelobetel You keep attacking Calvin's actions instead of his doctrines. You arent proving anything by that, but Calvin actually pleaded that Servetus wouldn't be given such a cruel death as being burnt at the stake. Servetus rejected the eternality and deity of Christ and at that time heresies of that calibre were punishible by death. That was the concensus so it wasn't just Calvin pal, plus the romanists had already passed a sentence of death in absentia against Servetus.
Refutingnonsense 8 months ago
@marcelobetel PLUS your argument is totally bogus. You are actually trying to come up with an unpardonable sin. If Christ atoned for ALL the sins of those who believe in Him, and let's say Calvin sinned in the Servetus case, then Christ had atoned for that sin also. Unless you are actually saying that the act of violence against a human being is a DEFINITE evidence that gives 100% certainty that the individual who was violent was not regenerate at all. In that case, please quote scripture.
Refutingnonsense 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense The point is - Calvin never believed in Christ.
You know a tree by it's FRUITS - and Calvin's fruits were rotten.
You presume that Cauvin (Calvin) was regenerated, but his fuits PROVE that he was NOT.
Please, copy and paste the text of these verses, then read them...
The Scripture says 1Jo 2:25; Eph 6:12; 2Co 10:4; 1Jo 2:10, 3:10, 3:14, 4;20, 4:21, 5:1-3; Mc 12:31.
Cauvin (Calvin) used to sin willfully 'cause The Scripture says Mt 6:14-15 + Mc 11:25-26 AND Mt 5:9,39,44!!!!
marcelobetel 8 months ago
@Refutingnonsense BTW, to say that Calvin only "thought" about violence is an absurd...
...that just proves that calvinists are only like sport teams fans. Even that team is a fiasco they can get a gun to shoot some if he/she says something about that...
Calvin was just another political leader like the romans leader. That was "protestantism". - catholics that couldn't pay more taxes to Rome...
...even after that, they still remained catholics - not regenerated, like YOU said.
marcelobetel 8 months ago
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@marcelobetel Romans 7:19 clearly indicates that regenerate people are not automatically perfect. Go read it. Second, Instead of attacking Calvin, which is an ad hominem, focus on the theology and doctrine. You don't prove anything by using such bogus logic as: "A regenerate cant ever think about violence, Calvin thought about violence, thus Calvin isnt regenerate". Are you like 13 yrs old? Your premise is false as Romans 7:19 will prove. What kind of God do you believe in anyway? My God saves.
Refutingnonsense 8 months ago
"Letting the text speak for itself"
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Says he who understands "world" to mean "each and every person to ever live on the earth, ever." What is the justification of that interpretation? Is that letting the text speak for itself, or is it begging the question? White's point concerning "propitiation" was valid and left unanswered.
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Furthermore, if you favor the Papist understanding of this text, you have to answer to the fact that Fathers like Hilary and Bede understood this verse as White does.
AgApE010 1 year ago
@AgApE010 Propitiation does not work in the manner that you suggest. Repentance of the person being propitiated (Isaiah 1:11-20) is also a requirement. There's no way to get around this, Scripturally.
ThePristineFaith 1 year ago
@ThePristineFaith
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The propitiation (which is an atonement that restores the one it is given for to God) is applied by grace through faith, both of which are a gift of God. Furthermore, in the NT, repentance is not a work, i.e., "stop sinning", as Arminian preachers suggest. Rather, the word μετανοέω , and its variations in the text, means to change one's mind concerning something. For example... continued
AgApE010 1 year ago
@ThePristineFaith
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continued ...For example, Peter says this to the Jews in Acts 2 who had rejected Christ and thought Him a blasphemer and not the Messiah. Peter was telling them to change their minds concerning Him when he says "Repent" in Acts 2:38 in response to their question "Brethren, what shall we do?" He wasn't saying "stop sinning in order to receive salvation." That's is works-salvation and totally dismantles the entire concept of grace.
AgApE010 1 year ago
@ThePristineFaith
Colossians 2:13-15: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Show me the word repentance in this passage.
rofyle 1 year ago
@ThePristineFaith Is it your belief that Isaiah was condemning the sacrificial system n Isaiah 1:11-20 or that he was condemining the religious pretenses of the people. Could you in your own words define the term propitation? I would ask that you would not take these questions as being asked arrogantly. I do ask them in humility though I do take the position that Christ did not propitiate the sins of every single human being that ever lived.
db247310 10 months ago
Man! Some payment or propitiation that is of jesus. I guess it wasn't good enough to keep 'the many who find the broad way' out of hell. If he died for everyone, adolf hitler got out of hell then. Sounds like you serve a false god pristine faith if you think jesus attonment kept evil unrepented men and women out of hell. So who does go to hell? Jesus's payment for sin would be bogus if it didn't keep men out of hell.
weRwilsons 1 year ago
@weRwilsons There is a difference between the provision of the atonement (for all men, the bible plainly states this) and the application of the atonement (limited to those who respond). I might ask you if you think the "elect" are born saved, or are the elect saved when they respond in faith to the gospel?
ThePristineFaith 1 year ago
@ThePristineFaith
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Nonsense, for Jesus' atonement is substitutionary, as per Isaiah 53, Galatians 2, and countless other texts. So when Jesus died, He actually took the punishment for His people's sins. You say that He took the punishment for the sins of every single human being ever. If that's true, their sins are paid for already and thus there is no longer any wrath to be satisfied in Hell... continued
AgApE010 1 year ago
@AgApE010 Propitiation does not work in the manner that you suggest. Repentance of the person being propitiated (Isaiah 1:11-20) is also a requirement. There's no way to get around this, Scripturally.
ThePristineFaith 1 year ago
@ThePristineFaith
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continued
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The elect aren't born saved, but the elect WILL BE saved. Therefore, all that Jesus died for WILL believe and be forgiven, so that His suffering isn't in vain. Your view, on the hand, has Jesus suffering for people whom He won't save, or, according to your understanding, whom He knew wouldn't believe in the first place.
AgApE010 1 year ago
If Christ died for every individual who ever lived upon the face of the earth, then every individual who ever lived upon the face of the earth is saved (Universalism). John 3:26 says that "all men" went to see Jesus beyond the Jordan...does this mean you and I were there? Does it mean that every individual in the Roman world at that time was there? No...of course not. If I say the whole world watched Neil Armstrong land on the moon in 1969, does that mean every individual or every nation?
VeryImagesozo 1 year ago 6
Jesus died to atone for all of my sins. Jesus did not die to atone for the sins of every person in history, lest all accounts of Jesus describing those lost souls who suffer that fate be in error. Just because the Bible doesn't say "Limited Atonement" anywhere, Christians shouldn't discard it as erroneous biblical doctrine. The Bible doesn't say "Trinity" anywhere either, but every Catholic holds to that teaching. Unfortunately, they don't really understand what that means regarding this topic.
bengphoenix 1 year ago
We are given a whole list of people who won't be in Heaven,so if you are trying to say everyone ends up there,then you are forgetting or leaving out much of the Bible.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
Victory, Dr. White. K.O.
the13thof12 1 year ago 2
"Casting aside all traditions absent from Scripture"?? Sungenis is RC, you think he's casting all his traditions aside? I dont think so...
m4ttieE 1 year ago
@Hello1689 I don't have the time or energy to "debate" with u any longer if ur going to bombard me with meaningless questions. Stick with Calvin if u must. U will never be in a position to recognise, even the possibility, that u are wrong in ur doctrine and approach if u don't step back and prayerfully consider what the Gospel is and how u approach it with others. While u do, have a read of 1 Cor 1:11-13 and ask the LORD to open ur eyes.
LORD, please help this "Calvinist" bro to understand.
RPM11111 1 year ago
@RPM11111 Jesus came to save HIS PEOPLE,THE SHEEP who come when He calls.The Pharisees also said the whole world went out after Jesus,did this mean everyone in the world?The Pharisees weren't following after Him and they were part of the world,right?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@Hello1689
Your approach to the Gospel and the Scriptures is quite something. Each time I listen to Calvinists it appears, to understand the Gospel, one requires a level of intellect that is hard to come by: One must understand hermeneutics; one must be able to make words in the Bible say things they don't actually say; one must be able to pick and choose what the context of particular Scripture is to suit one's own doctrines. The Holy Spirit is left somewhat redundant with your approach.
RPM11111 1 year ago
Comment removed
RPM11111 1 year ago
Woooh...for the first time, White seemed kind of nervous. Notice him moving that pen! I remember amany years ago I personally saw White and Sungenis debate on "justification by faith" and the latter, as I heard it, won the debate because he was more clearly following the Biblical text. I can't believe a Catholic stumped White...
nbanuchu 1 year ago
@Hello1689
Oh, you're very clever - "biblical hermeneutics". Calvinism must be true then.
In answer to both questions - Yes.
Biblical hermeneutics doesn't allow you to defend a doctrine on comparison of 2 verses, or 3 or 4 or 5 for that matter.
But since you set the tone, try reading the context and notice the word "may". Then read 1 Corinthians 9:22 "To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become *ALL* things to *ALL* men so that by all possible means I might save *SOME*."
Peace
RPM11111 1 year ago
James White has to interpret it that way - it's the only way he can interpret it as a calvinist.
Same with 1 Tim 4:10 "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."
RPM11111 1 year ago