Part of any putative success of this argument would rest on the predicate that the arguer knows how Biblical verses are to be interpreted today, whereas most Christians would believe that they are reliant on the Holy Spirit. For example, Matthew 12:38-39 has Jesus deliberately refusing to perform a miracle & this is not the only Biblical example of Divine unwillingness to be subject to human assessment. So which is the right Biblical argument, the one that suits the atheist or the Christian?
Your claimed inability to think of a non-literal application of the "faith can move mountains" teaching seems unimaginative at best, small-minded or disingenuous at worst. Perhaps it's your generation: Johnnie Ray and the Four Lads had fair success in the pop charts expanding this metaphor even into the romantic sphere in 1952, which gives at least one pointer to how widely it can be applied!
I can understand perhaps being a vanilla theist because you can't disprove god empirically and you might have lower standards than me for what you would call a god.
But how do you go from "you can't disprove god" to "the bible is true and not this other book about gods... neither of which can be proved or disproved at all.".
I know I'm weighing in on this wayyyy late, just wanted to post a thought. Perhaps this is all about Jesus simply finding a way to sell Xtianity. "If you believe in God hard enough, you will have fantastic, cosmic powers and do anything you want". I think Jesus knew he had to sell it to the people, and his audience was a small, start-up crowd who may have been feeling oppressed or intimidated by the larger Jewish population. So...believe and you get power.
that old clanky Newtonian/Cartesian model....it's overdue for refurbishment, man that elusive TOE and Heisingberg just can't get it together, can they?
Jesus is real and people like OK will do everything in their power to stop the truth coming out about the true meaning of our existence.
Science employs a lot of people and it serves it's purpose of being a government sponsored population control mechanism well, but truth it most certainly isn't.
There is only one absolute in our reality and His name is Jesus the Nazarene, the only way to salvation for your eternal soul, please reach out to Him, He will hear you.
This is a real question: WHY are you so willing to accept this ridiculous book called "The Bible" with no evidence whatsoever, and you don't accept that the world around you works by the principles that science has worked out?
Why? Why do you believe ridiculous claims that have no supporting evidence, and reject claims that have complete evidence?
What's going through your head? This is a serious question.
"Unless, of course, you have some kind of physical evidence"
There's that worn out punchline yet again,
yes, i have plenty of anecdotal evidence to back up my claim and also hallucinations or delusions wouldn't have the power, i don't imagine, to force someone to change their entire personal constitution.
But don't take my word for it, take Sir Fred Hoyle's or Albert Einstein's or Sir Isaac Newton's or Dr John Lennox's or Prof Ken Miller's or even C.S Lewis'..etc...etc....the list is endless.
" Einstein did not believe in a personal god as you did "
Leaving Spinoza to one side for a second OK,
it does appear that your own construct of logical reasoning is paradoxically contradictory in nature, you can't, on one hand, put your faith in Science and Scientists, and then on the other hand imply the great Albert Einstein believed in fairy tales - obviously that makes him a fully paid up member of the delusional loon fraternity. :)
I never said Einstein believed in fairy tales. I said he did NOT believe in fairy tales. Where is the contradiction? When he spoke of Spinoza's god, he was talking about a poetic sense of the universe, not an actual "God", a being.
I don't CARE what Newton's passion was, or Einstein, or ANYONE. It doesn't matter. You're falling into Appeal to Authority like a bad habit.
"This is one of the typical christian logical fallacies: Appeal to Authority."
You state these things as though they're a given already, it wasn't an appeal to authority, it was a reminder......always in context OK.....try reading the subtext !!!
Why bring it up? Who gives a shit what these men believed? It makes no difference to the truth.
Religions fanatics always have to fall back on Appeal to Authority because that's all they've got. Their arguments hold no water, so the best they can come up with is "See? These smart people believe this crap too!"
And if you were half as smart as any of these men you'd quickly realise that their professional opinion carries more weight than your own intellectually sub-standard views.
I don't know how you reconcile placing all of your faith in Science and Scientists to supply you with the truth of our reality, while at the same time totally disrespecting the greatest people in that particular discipline, having contributed so much to their field.
Their professional opinion IN THEIR FIELD. In other fields, they are no better than joe schmoe.
There are no "god experts" -- you guys are always whining whenever we bring up the idea of testing god. There is no test for god, therefore there can be no experts in god.
I have enormous respect for these scientists, but even smart people will sometimes say or do stupid things. Being smart doesn't prevent you from occasionally being stupid. It just reduces it a lot.
Listen, i've tried to point out flaws in your Philosophical opticism Ad Nausium,
you're not even in the ballpark when it comes to rational debate....you use evasive and diversionary tactics whenever someone highlights the glaring deficiences in your absolutist driven arguments, you blindly argue black is white, launch Ad Hominems and consistantly rubbish established facts, so for those reasons, i'm out.
Tell me - why were you an atheist? I ask, because I've heard many christians claim this, but when you actually dig a little it turns out to be not true.
So enlighten me - what was it that made you atheist?
I was fooled into thinking nothing could possibly exist outside of Human understanding, i think i was scared by the thought of Science not being in control of our perceived reality, easy done having gone through the total indoctrination of the masses, some people call it state education.
Science is a body of knowledge and techniques for learning about how the universe works. That's it. So either the universe works as it appears, or it doesn't.
Claiming science is wrong is like claiming a square peg won't fit into a square hole, or that Pi is something other than 3.1415926...
If you call "2+2=4" indoctrination, then you were never an atheist, you were always a loon.
I actually agree with you on this video Prof in as far as what God says about past present and future miracles. You were right in asking Jones about these things.
I don't know however if that was what Jones meant as far as "present tense". I have to watch it again. If he did mean that,
then I don't know where he gets that idea from at all, to be honest.
As far as "mountains" go, I think that is just an implied metaphor, in that the mountain could be anything really.
Even the apostle Paul's usage of the same statement is never backed up with an actual story of him "moving" a mountain. So, I think it's safe to assume that they don't mean a literal mountain.
Similarly, when Pastor's use the phrase, "a Goliath in your life". They don't mean a literal giant, just a challenge you are facing. I think "mountain" is meant to be taken in the same way.
"As far as "mountains" go, I think that is just an implied metaphor, in that the mountain could be anything really."
If you're going to claim that the metaphor is that flexible, then it could be a metaphor for itself -- ie you could LITERALLY command a mountain to jump into the sea.
Is that what you're saying? Or are there unspoken limits to this metaphor?
Besides, the whole passage was intended to teach us about FAITH, not specifically moving mountains JUST to move mountains.
It was showing the power of faith and was using the "mountain" example to TEACH that.
But I'll say it right here. As a believer who has had NUMEROUS answered prayer, if God put me in a situation where a mountain literally had to be moved to fulfill the will of God, He could and would do it.
I know I'm going to get a bunch of flak for saying that, whatever.
"he's saying that wishful thinking makes things happen"
No,not at all Ockham,
what Jesus is saying is if your relationship with God is genuine and you have followed His Word, as appossed to the will of the State or even the will of the people, then God in all of His glorious wisdom will graciously intervene in our lives, wherever and whenever devine intervention is neccessary.
Whereas magic is the simply art of deceit, therefore there is, nor can there ever be, any legitimate comparison made.
You made the extraordinary claim, so therefore you must provide the extraordinary evidence, or is this an admission that you deliberately lied and tried to exploit people's ignorance in order to make yourself look intelligent.
What extraordinary claim did I make? That the universe adheres to the first law of thermodynamics? The law that we derived from observing the universe?
Um, you really don't understand much of anything do you?
Life must be very confusing for someone with such a muddled brain.
(Irresponsible can hear the frantic clicking of mouse buttons, he knows it's a futile errand, so he sits back in awe inspired contemplation of God's wisdom)
When I said "something for nothing", I meant "something for free", not "something for no purpose".
have you never heard the phrase "something for nothing?" or "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch"?
Any creation of matter would require an equivalent input of energy, either from freely available energy or from conversion of other matter into energy.
The First Law + E=mc2 is the rule here.
Unless Jesus has a thermonuclear reactor in his pants, he's not making loaves & fishes.
Go read "A Brief History of Time". I'm not a quantum physicist, and a 500 character text box on youtube is hardly the place for it.
This is where we make references to other documentation. That's how this works.
So if you want to understand the formation of helium and hydrogen, read Stephen Hawking. If you have a problem with him, then publish a paper and become famous.
Well i don't have the book, but i have done enough research to know that it's all purely theoretical and even then there is no 6billion degree heat source known to Science, when you consider the hottest star is only a mere 26million degrees....where does the extra 5.75 billion degrees needed come from ?
After the explosion, when things were too hot to settle down, there was no matter. Then as things started to cool, basic particles "condensed", starting with protons and electrons, which form hydrogen. Atoms of hydrogen attracted each other forming clumps who's gravity was even stronger, speeding up the clumping, until eventually you had enough for a star.
Read the book. Or admit that you don't care about the truth.
If you are using the bible to defeat it's own passages, then I would love for you to provide me a scripture verse that READS "Jesus cast a spell" to back up your claims.
Quit being a tool and be consistent. Don't pull this stuff out of your crapper.
The scripture says that Jesus spoke his curse and then the next day the tree was dead. How is that NOT casting a spell? What else could it be? Was the tree ashamed when it heard Jesus' words and died of a broken heart? Are you stupid?
Obviously we KNOW this didn't happen, because that's bullshit, but we also KNOW that's what the bible says, because that's what it says.
My evidence is Mark 11:14. I'm quoting the scripture. You should try to read the bible more - it's bizarre.
i was tired allow me to clarify. you asked the question. paraphrasing here, what are the greater works that men of faith do? my response is look at modern medicine. then i said to the Christians before they harp on the point that atheists are doctors too. my attempt at a joke after being awake for 24 hours. lol
Jesus did his "miracles" by magic. Science, including medicine, doesn't work that way.
If "greater works also" was some kind of implied connection to Jesus, then it would seem he was talking about "bigger magic", not science.
Every single bible story relies on magic, and is therefore clearly false. Either that, or magic really exists and believers are supposed to be powerful magicians.
"im just saying magic isn't really magic its just perceived as such. chill out."
It's true that today's technology sent back in time might look like magic. However, that's not what's happening in the bible.
Miracles like "feeding 5000 with 2 fishes and 3 loaves (or whatever it was)" is a physical impossibility. No matter what technology you have, you can't create matter out of nothing (it would require HUGE energy input), so that's magic.
You stole the James Randi magic theme and applied it here.....as i said before 'Toom Tabard', you're bluffing your way t6hrough this with the sole objective of somehow owning Christians....well bring it on daf-ty, God word will cut your arguments down every time.
To anyone else reading this, OckhamKant is a troll who is only interested in masterbation, he doesn't care about the truth, it's all about himself going on a cheap points scoring escapade.
If you talk to christians they will say that miracles do happen today. Preachers, christian tv... etc all make claims of miraculous healings.. etc. The question, why won't god heal amputees? Goes to show that miracles do not happen today. You can't make these claims when evidence such as this fact show it to be wrong. So, when they respond that, its ridiculous god doesn't need to heal amputees. They miss the importance of the question.
That simple question is one of the main influences of my deconversion. Believing that miracles do occur was something I believe whole heartedly. It was at the foundation of my faith. After all, my pastor was telling me almost every week how god does miracles for those of faith. That simple question forced me to rethink my beliefs. I had to honestly reevaluate the idea of miracles. When I did, there was no getting around the fact that they do not occur.
One would assume that the most common objection to "faith moving mountains" would be the aspect of "belief". Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Given Paul's statements about the lack of faith in most professing believers, that would seem to be a logical point for apologists to make. It would, however, mean admitting they lacked the necessary faith.
Mountains are and have been symbols of might and power. They're large, magnificent, and invincible. When I read that passage the thought of it being meant in a literal manner did not even come to me. It seems unbelievably obvious to me what it is saying. "If you pray, and you believe in the Lord and that he will help you, through him you can do mighty things."
Then again, that's why people--especially Christians--need to read the Bible for themselves.
or the obvious answer is that life is a miracle. Considering that "it" can't be replicated in the lab. But the good professor is wholly hung up on just one aspect of one religion to prove the greater idea that there is no deity. Why do you pick on the lowest denominator of one religion to base your intellectual prowess. Doesn't talking in such absolutes, already prove your argument invalid?
"that's a nice sentiment for a greeting card" an oblique reply
in the face of truth. Ok.
"And what "one aspect" might that be"
american christian fundamentalist to hang your "no god" hat on. How does that work? You take the beliefs of one group to prove that your beliefs are true. What of deities in general? What of the Jews? No demonstration of torah inconsistencies, you do know that this all started with them, context escapes your logic?
"Doesn't talking in such absolutes, already prove your argument invalid?" no.
I don't think my logic professor would agree. Maybe you could prove him wrong with an example of your beliefs, that don't rely on the bible. For someone how only has a one note argument, If the bible is wrong, then why not expand your sources to include other facts of your beliefs?
Your logic professor believes/believed that absolute statements are logically problematic? The first thing that leaps to mind is the categorical syllogism -- "all men are mortal" and all that. But I'm all ears (or eyes, as the case may be).
"...why not expand your sources to include other facts of your beliefs?"
I am a former Christian who talks about the Bible. If you want to hear about other faiths, find another channel, Romney. :-)
"logic" yeah, I understand that logic is a two way street. I was referring to the other side of the coin, the part about "if the bible is not literal, then there is no deity". Considering the broad terms of "deity" and "religion". [ not all religions have deities, there for "non deity" does not invalidate religion argument ect..] Assuming presumption of course.
"You take the beliefs of one group to prove that your beliefs are true."
Actually, I subject the beliefs of Christianity to scrutiny in order to demonstrate that they don't withstand it. You've merely presumed that Christianity's many flaws comprise the only reason I don't believe in any gods. Here's the thing, Romney: this is my channel, so I'll talk about what I like here. If you'd like to hear about other faiths or other matters I don't address, you're free to go elsewhere.
Thanks for the gentle push to move on professor, I find it interesting that you encourage "choice". Isn't that how it's done? People make a choice has to what to believe. But if there was no choice then your argument would be mute. Why make videos demonstrating the pressures of scrutiny, and then act as if it's impolite to banter back and forth?
Are you just looking to preach to the choir, or is scrutiny not your forte?
Don't make a MOUTNTAIN out of a molehill. DUH... climb the mountains of life. Lifes an UPHILL battle etc etc. it's a common metaphor to speak of life's problems as mountains. Try a little harder next time.
Perhaps he said metaphor (or, I should say, metaphore, lol), but he meant hyperbole. And I agree that this is the best "way out" of the uncomfortable situation. For the Christian anyway.
Perhaps he meant hyperbole. However, Jason, my sense is that he and many other believers have no firm commitment to a meaning and, therefore, will say whatever they think they can get away with in order to deflect a challenge.
One of the most controversial aspects of faith is that the infallibility and perfection of the laws of nature is seen as a sign of the divine, yet a violation of any of those (most perfect) laws is equally a sign of the divine. Then whatever happens, whatever the universe looks like, becomes a proof for the existence of God. It follows that for the believer the actual realization of any universe at all (whether ordered, disordered, good, bad, old, young) is irrelevant. No falsification allowed.
It's not hard to put Christians in an intellectual corner, which they can't wriggle out of. Their method is almost always to evade the issue or resort to ad hominem attacks.
The Church is not moving forth in power and wisdom, accompanied by the promised signs and wonders. Christians don't understand the Bible in context, as the Jews well know.
Just as Christianity is petering out in Europe, the USA will go the same way. Christianity is effete and jaded. It will lumber to its demise.
ARGG! The word 'miracle' another I group with 'spiritual' that are completely worthless words. What is a miracle? Something that is unlikely, or impossible? A royal flush is VERY unlikely, near impossible, yet it happens, is it a miracle, or just an unlikely probability. These types of words are worthless as their 'meanings' vary from one to another, thus the ability to transfer information with these words is lost rendering the words a detriment to language. Fucking hate them.
Well, 'miracle' *does* have a definition, Bayer. A miracle is more than an unlikely events. It involves the suspension/violation of some law or laws of nature, e.g., bringing a dead person back to life, an amputee growing a new limb. Since those things don't happen, I can see why you view the word as useless.
Just to prove my point about the varying definitions of 'miracle', the definition I looked at had it as "an event that APPEARS inexplicable to the laws of nature..." So the way I see it, it can be an event that seems impossible (ie. an extremely unlikely event) or something that IS impossible-of course, I guess if 'it' happens it can't be a miracle, because it isn't impossible if said event occurs. I guess I'm just too much of a stickler for getting accurate info from verbal communication.
To me the 'faith to move mountains' described as metaphor indicates that faith is incredibly powerful, thus with enough you could do such things. I think the Joness kid must have meant that the phrase was an exaggeration of faith, as a metaphor indicates something that is like something else-not less than.
In reference to the 'Why won't God heal amputees' question, I recently had a Christian tell me, "He does heal amputees...ever heard of artificial limbs? God works in all sorts of ways!" I'm not kidding; I was brought to my knees with hysteric laughter.
It seems, Smalltownatheist, that since God is not working miracles, he's getting credit from believers for the work of humankind to solve or reduce the problems he has ignored. It's a fascinating and, as you note, often amusing misattribution of credit.
Reminds me of the time that a believer presented the argument to me that a belief that God exists is no more irrational than a belief that Antarctica exists, as I've never been there myself and have to trust "on faith" that it exists.
When you get such an utterly absurd argument, it can actually be quite difficult to refute, because if the person you're arguing against has such a completely warped sense of logic, they won't accept even the most reasonable and obvious of things.
Usually in a comment that tells me that god thinks I'm a 'fool' (as per Psalm). Or consigning me to the magic sad place unless I repent IMMEDIATELY, but then say that Karla Faye Tucker and other death row converts are in heaven (which gives me some time to ponder Pascal's wager), while Gandhi and Mother Theresa (evil Catholic, don't you know) are in hell.
Dude, I was joking. I pointed out that the person who I was talking to spelled the word "Bible" wrong, and quoted how they did it... I thought that would be very clear, but apparently not enough.
Yeah, I get the "fool" thing sometimes, and always state "funny how the most popular Bible verse is really just an ad hominem attack of saying, 'yeah well you are stupid!'"
I always took it as a metaphor. that faith can remove obstacles in your way (such as mountains). then I interpret any passage of the Bible this way. the whole snake in the garden of Eden was a story to warn a person against foolish thinking. that's why I shake my head when I see fundees interpret the Bible so literally.
It seems you had a general rule about not taking the stuff literally. I can related to that. It's the picking and choosing that strikes me as nothing more than a matter of expedience. Thanks, Byteshiep.
i bet your students are quaking in there boots half the time. nice video except for the bit about bringing into question someones inteligence based upon thier abillity to spell. you naughty prof. you know dishonest types would just use a spell checker. love you anyway keep up the fight all the best.
"i bet your students are quaking in there boots half the time."
LOL. I don't think they are. However, just a couple of days ago someone told me that she was speaking with one of my student from this past semester who said that I was "very tough." Well, it's college after all. That said, I think the students and I have a good time while I have very high expectations of them.
By the way, I don't judge someone's intelligence by spelling. I think you missed my sarcasm there, Oogle.
carful or i might have to do a series entitled , do ex christians mean what they say. just kidding i know you dont judge inteligence on spelling i wasnt offended. it doesnt bother me atall i have to leave some sort of critisism open to the fundies.
I think Jone's interpretation of kant , suggests considering miracles as one should consider buying a lottery ticket. Buy one w/the hope you will win, but don't go in to debt expecting it. In other words "don't count on it". It raises the question as to what value the concept of "miracles" has, but that's what I get from Jones interpretation.
Thanks, Owheydusoapsk. What you've described there go to presumptuousness -- so-called testing God. But that's a red herring in this discussion, which is not about, e.g., a presumptuous person cutting off her own arm and then asking God to restore it in Jesus' name. This discussion is about the role of the miraculous in the lives of believers (which the Bible clearly describes as an integral feature) and the efficacy of prayer.
why won't god heal amputees is not a disingenuous or unintelligent question but joness' answer shows how he is both disingenuous and obtuse. not looking at facts thru reason but thru religion. i've run into joness before. not a mean guy or anything he seems a nice enough fellow but reason has taken a holiday here....
Though I'm fairly certain that your response will be ignored. This is based solely on the fact that, the Bible verses supporting the questions were given in the GII video/site.
Anyways... a kinda off-topic question: how exactly do you take screenshots of the comments?
I do "print screen," Sonic. It's easy and takes just a few seconds. Hit "shift" and "print screen" simultaneously. Then go to Microsoft Photo Editor, click "Edit", and go down to "Print as New Image." It will appear on the screen for you to save and use. I usually zoom the screen size to 250% so the words come out clearly. Hope that helps.
Prof, your last several videos have been like a constant build up to smack some of these topics into the ground. I really don't think any fundamentalist can refute you at this point. You've got so much literature backing you up and so many people evading questions it's almost embarrassing. I'm sure you see now what I was telling you about Joness105639 eh? [gratuitous use of "eh" to show my Canadian heritage!]
"gratuitous use of 'eh' to show my Canadian heritage!"
LOL. Andrew, as I suspect you know, I always appreciate a show of Canadian heritage. It's like one of my best friends who always spells 'favorite' f-a-v-o-U-r-i-t-e.
These are tough questions that go to some fundamental Christian claims and issues. One of things I realized in my transition to atheism was that if I have to twist and turn so much to make sense of what my faith claims, there's something wrong with what my faith claims.
The spellchecker ALWAYS says I spell favourite, neighbour, and other similar words wrong... For some reason it resets to US English every time I open the program haha.
I also found this when I was a catholic, but it wasn't anyone asking questions, it was all introspective. Also I was forced to read the bible from genesis to revelation when I was just 7 and that gave me enough ammo
Part of any putative success of this argument would rest on the predicate that the arguer knows how Biblical verses are to be interpreted today, whereas most Christians would believe that they are reliant on the Holy Spirit. For example, Matthew 12:38-39 has Jesus deliberately refusing to perform a miracle & this is not the only Biblical example of Divine unwillingness to be subject to human assessment. So which is the right Biblical argument, the one that suits the atheist or the Christian?
nepistepa 1 month ago
Comment removed
nepistepa 1 month ago
Your claimed inability to think of a non-literal application of the "faith can move mountains" teaching seems unimaginative at best, small-minded or disingenuous at worst. Perhaps it's your generation: Johnnie Ray and the Four Lads had fair success in the pop charts expanding this metaphor even into the romantic sphere in 1952, which gives at least one pointer to how widely it can be applied!
nepistepa 1 month ago
Comment removed
nepistepa 1 month ago
Comment removed
nepistepa 1 month ago
The mountain is the metaphore for the homo-secular adjenda.
Case closed!
Pilotwing64 1 year ago
if i was still a believer and watched this video -- it would have definitely made me think for a good long while on the basis of my faith.
pbhs07 1 year ago
@pbhs07 Thanks.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
I can understand perhaps being a vanilla theist because you can't disprove god empirically and you might have lower standards than me for what you would call a god.
But how do you go from "you can't disprove god" to "the bible is true and not this other book about gods... neither of which can be proved or disproved at all.".
TimJMorrison 2 years ago
I know I'm weighing in on this wayyyy late, just wanted to post a thought. Perhaps this is all about Jesus simply finding a way to sell Xtianity. "If you believe in God hard enough, you will have fantastic, cosmic powers and do anything you want". I think Jesus knew he had to sell it to the people, and his audience was a small, start-up crowd who may have been feeling oppressed or intimidated by the larger Jewish population. So...believe and you get power.
Who doesn't want super powers?
LaerenMisha 2 years ago
Hey OK,
that old clanky Newtonian/Cartesian model....it's overdue for refurbishment, man that elusive TOE and Heisingberg just can't get it together, can they?
" I don't believe that He (God) plays dice "
:)
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
Jesus is real and people like OK will do everything in their power to stop the truth coming out about the true meaning of our existence.
Science employs a lot of people and it serves it's purpose of being a government sponsored population control mechanism well, but truth it most certainly isn't.
There is only one absolute in our reality and His name is Jesus the Nazarene, the only way to salvation for your eternal soul, please reach out to Him, He will hear you.
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
You should be consistent in your quest for "evidence".
You believe in a fairy tale that comes from a badly written book of primitive stories, and you believe it to the point of delusion.
You don't believe that 2+2=4 but you believe that jesus walked on water.
Apply the same kind of thinking you're trying to use with reality to your bible, and you'll find that it falls completely apart.
OccamKant 2 years ago
This is a real question: WHY are you so willing to accept this ridiculous book called "The Bible" with no evidence whatsoever, and you don't accept that the world around you works by the principles that science has worked out?
Why? Why do you believe ridiculous claims that have no supporting evidence, and reject claims that have complete evidence?
What's going through your head? This is a serious question.
OccamKant 2 years ago
" You believe in a fairy tale that comes from a badly written book of primitive stories, and you believe it to the point of delusion "
I was an Atheist all my life, but i was left in no doubt after being privileged to one day find myself standing in the presence of God,
i walked with Jesus OK, think about that for a second....it was lifechanging...and yes i was and hopefully still am of sound mind.
We're not all brought to Gopd through the conventional methods.....i had never read the Bible.
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
You are not able to judge the soundness of your own mind. Insane asylums are filled with people who think they're sane.
The test is whether or not you are rational or delusional.
Religion would be by definition delusional if the dictionary writers didn't put in a special escape clause.
Religious belief hits all the notes of a true delusion. If you believe you were in "god's presence" you were hallucinating or delusional.
Unless, of course, you have some kind of physical evidence.
OccamKant 2 years ago
"Unless, of course, you have some kind of physical evidence"
There's that worn out punchline yet again,
yes, i have plenty of anecdotal evidence to back up my claim and also hallucinations or delusions wouldn't have the power, i don't imagine, to force someone to change their entire personal constitution.
But don't take my word for it, take Sir Fred Hoyle's or Albert Einstein's or Sir Isaac Newton's or Dr John Lennox's or Prof Ken Miller's or even C.S Lewis'..etc...etc....the list is endless.
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
Einstein did not believe in a personal god as you did, and got pissed off whenever someone claimed he did. Look it up.
Newton was before the atomic theory or evolution. Should Newton have been born today, there is little doubt he would be atheist.
OccamKant 2 years ago
" Einstein did not believe in a personal god as you did "
Leaving Spinoza to one side for a second OK,
it does appear that your own construct of logical reasoning is paradoxically contradictory in nature, you can't, on one hand, put your faith in Science and Scientists, and then on the other hand imply the great Albert Einstein believed in fairy tales - obviously that makes him a fully paid up member of the delusional loon fraternity. :)
Surprisingly, Newton's biggest passion wasn't Science.
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
I never said Einstein believed in fairy tales. I said he did NOT believe in fairy tales. Where is the contradiction? When he spoke of Spinoza's god, he was talking about a poetic sense of the universe, not an actual "God", a being.
I don't CARE what Newton's passion was, or Einstein, or ANYONE. It doesn't matter. You're falling into Appeal to Authority like a bad habit.
OccamKant 2 years ago
It's not a worn out punchline, it's the appropriate response. And you have no actual evidence, just stories. Of course.
But anyway, the litany of names is pointless. This is one of the typical christian logical fallacies: Appeal to Authority.
I don't give a shit who said something - it's true, or it's not true. It stands or falls on it's own. It doesn't matter who said it.
OccamKant 2 years ago
"This is one of the typical christian logical fallacies: Appeal to Authority."
You state these things as though they're a given already, it wasn't an appeal to authority, it was a reminder......always in context OK.....try reading the subtext !!!
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
Why bring it up? Who gives a shit what these men believed? It makes no difference to the truth.
Religions fanatics always have to fall back on Appeal to Authority because that's all they've got. Their arguments hold no water, so the best they can come up with is "See? These smart people believe this crap too!"
OccamKant 2 years ago
"These smart people believe this crap too"
And if you were half as smart as any of these men you'd quickly realise that their professional opinion carries more weight than your own intellectually sub-standard views.
I don't know how you reconcile placing all of your faith in Science and Scientists to supply you with the truth of our reality, while at the same time totally disrespecting the greatest people in that particular discipline, having contributed so much to their field.
No respect???
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
Their professional opinion IN THEIR FIELD. In other fields, they are no better than joe schmoe.
There are no "god experts" -- you guys are always whining whenever we bring up the idea of testing god. There is no test for god, therefore there can be no experts in god.
I have enormous respect for these scientists, but even smart people will sometimes say or do stupid things. Being smart doesn't prevent you from occasionally being stupid. It just reduces it a lot.
Newton believed in alchemy.
OccamKant 2 years ago
"i have enormous respect for these scientists"
Listen, i've tried to point out flaws in your Philosophical opticism Ad Nausium,
you're not even in the ballpark when it comes to rational debate....you use evasive and diversionary tactics whenever someone highlights the glaring deficiences in your absolutist driven arguments, you blindly argue black is white, launch Ad Hominems and consistantly rubbish established facts, so for those reasons, i'm out.
Penn+Teller
Randi+Dawkins
hocus+pocus
8o)
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
IrresponsibleAtheism - All I have to say is: You are a perfect example of projection.
OccamKant 2 years ago
And you my friend are a living testimony to the genius of Beckett - i suggest you read :
' krapp's Last Tape '
:)
Bye-eee!!!!!
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
" The test is whether or not you are rational or delusional."
Psychiatry was proven a phony Science in the 1970's,
Google : R.D. Lang
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
Tell me - why were you an atheist? I ask, because I've heard many christians claim this, but when you actually dig a little it turns out to be not true.
So enlighten me - what was it that made you atheist?
OccamKant 2 years ago
"what was it that made you atheist? "
I was fooled into thinking nothing could possibly exist outside of Human understanding, i think i was scared by the thought of Science not being in control of our perceived reality, easy done having gone through the total indoctrination of the masses, some people call it state education.
:)
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
Science is not in control of anything.
Science is a body of knowledge and techniques for learning about how the universe works. That's it. So either the universe works as it appears, or it doesn't.
Claiming science is wrong is like claiming a square peg won't fit into a square hole, or that Pi is something other than 3.1415926...
If you call "2+2=4" indoctrination, then you were never an atheist, you were always a loon.
OccamKant 2 years ago
Well OK, it's way past my bedtime,
i'll catch up with you later.
P.S.
Am i unblocked yet?
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
I actually agree with you on this video Prof in as far as what God says about past present and future miracles. You were right in asking Jones about these things.
I don't know however if that was what Jones meant as far as "present tense". I have to watch it again. If he did mean that,
then I don't know where he gets that idea from at all, to be honest.
vbfl920 2 years ago
As far as "mountains" go, I think that is just an implied metaphor, in that the mountain could be anything really.
Even the apostle Paul's usage of the same statement is never backed up with an actual story of him "moving" a mountain. So, I think it's safe to assume that they don't mean a literal mountain.
Similarly, when Pastor's use the phrase, "a Goliath in your life". They don't mean a literal giant, just a challenge you are facing. I think "mountain" is meant to be taken in the same way.
vbfl920 2 years ago
"As far as "mountains" go, I think that is just an implied metaphor, in that the mountain could be anything really."
If you're going to claim that the metaphor is that flexible, then it could be a metaphor for itself -- ie you could LITERALLY command a mountain to jump into the sea.
Is that what you're saying? Or are there unspoken limits to this metaphor?
OccamKant 2 years ago
Oh jeez this is such a non-issue I don't even know why you are even rebutting me about it.
I go to church. Pastor's USE both the mountain expression AND the goliath expression symbolizing CHALLENGES we face.
That's all it represents man.
Jesus also talked about "asking, seeking, knocking".
So when we pray, do we literally KNOCK on the doors of heaven?
No, its figurative.
vbfl920 2 years ago
Besides, the whole passage was intended to teach us about FAITH, not specifically moving mountains JUST to move mountains.
It was showing the power of faith and was using the "mountain" example to TEACH that.
But I'll say it right here. As a believer who has had NUMEROUS answered prayer, if God put me in a situation where a mountain literally had to be moved to fulfill the will of God, He could and would do it.
I know I'm going to get a bunch of flak for saying that, whatever.
vbfl920 2 years ago
At the very least it implies that faith is a magical thing that can actually do things on it's own.
he said "with faith you can move mountains" not "with faith and giant earth moving equipment" or even 'with faith and works". Just "with faith".
OccamKant 2 years ago
So then tell me: WHAT exactly, in plain english, did JC mean when he said that "if you have faith you can tell that mountain to jump into the sea".
Since he says "if you have faith, you can ask for the impossible", he's saying that wishful thinking makes things happen.
If that's NOT what he's saying, please enlighten me.
And trying to blow me off by saying that this is a non-issue is just dishonest, but I guess that's not a surprise, coming from a christian.
OccamKant 2 years ago
"he's saying that wishful thinking makes things happen"
No,not at all Ockham,
what Jesus is saying is if your relationship with God is genuine and you have followed His Word, as appossed to the will of the State or even the will of the people, then God in all of His glorious wisdom will graciously intervene in our lives, wherever and whenever devine intervention is neccessary.
Whereas magic is the simply art of deceit, therefore there is, nor can there ever be, any legitimate comparison made.
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
No - Magic is "something for nothing". Feeding of 5000 people with 2 loaves of bread and 3 fishes is something for nothing.
You cannot create matter out of nothing. The amount of matter and energy in the universe is constant.
I'm not talking about 'stage magic', which is the art of deceit. I'm saying that the bible promises "real magic", like fairys and goblins.
Jesus says, if you read the bible, that if you believe, you can do real magic.
That is delusional.
OccamKant 2 years ago
" Feeding of 5000 people with 2 loaves of bread and 3 fishes is something for nothing."
It wasn't for nothing, i don't know what you were doing last Monday say, but i have heard of Jesus' miracles.
"You cannot create matter out of nothing. The amount of matter and energy in the universe is constant."
Total tripe, i've got 5 words for you....'Dark Energy and Dark Matter.'
"I'm saying that the bible promises "real magic",like fairys and goblins."
Impossible!
God's power pre-dates The Magi.
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
Ahhh, I see! Jesus feeds on dark matter and converts it into miracles!
Got it.
OccamKant 2 years ago
Okay OK,
i'm calling you out on this one,
you made this extraordinary claim, quote :
" The amount of matter and energy in the universe is constant."
We require some sources please!
:)
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
Comment removed
OccamKant 2 years ago
Sorry - First law of thermodynamics.
OccamKant 2 years ago
I need references to accredited peer reviewed papers which detail how the First Law of Thermodynamics affects non-Atomic matter and energy.
I'll wait.
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
Sure - I'll dig those up as soon as you give me accredited peer reviewed scientific papers showing that god exists, and that jesus performs magic.
I'll wait.
OccamKant 2 years ago
You made the extraordinary claim, so therefore you must provide the extraordinary evidence, or is this an admission that you deliberately lied and tried to exploit people's ignorance in order to make yourself look intelligent.
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
What extraordinary claim did I make? That the universe adheres to the first law of thermodynamics? The law that we derived from observing the universe?
Um, you really don't understand much of anything do you?
Life must be very confusing for someone with such a muddled brain.
OccamKant 2 years ago
" What extraordinary claim did I make? 2
Just read back on this message board, it's all logged OK.
Maybe you're flustered, who knows?
Btw,
I'm still waiting!
xD
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
You're saying that my claim that the universe follows universal laws is somehow extraordinary?
How do you figure that? Are you saying that magic is the rule of the day, and 2+2 is not 4?
I'm afraid that if you want me to defend things like the law of gravity or the speed of light, you're going to go unsatisfied.
OccamKant 2 years ago
" How do you figure that? Are you saying that magic is the rule of the day, and 2+2 is not 4?"
2+2=5, if you use enough compounds of the number 2 that is.
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
Tum...tee...tum...tee..tum...tum....
(Irresponsible can hear the frantic clicking of mouse buttons, he knows it's a futile errand, so he sits back in awe inspired contemplation of God's wisdom)
Make no mistake OK,
God is able and then some!
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
You know, I'm kind of embarassed that I've wasted so much time responding to a paranoid, deluded lunatic.
I guess there is always hope that even the truly insane would actually wake up, but I guess in this case the hope was in vain.
OccamKant 2 years ago
Where's the proof of your extraordinary claim OK?
Where is your integrity?
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
I made no extraordinary claim.
OccamKant 2 years ago
When I said "something for nothing", I meant "something for free", not "something for no purpose".
have you never heard the phrase "something for nothing?" or "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch"?
Any creation of matter would require an equivalent input of energy, either from freely available energy or from conversion of other matter into energy.
The First Law + E=mc2 is the rule here.
Unless Jesus has a thermonuclear reactor in his pants, he's not making loaves & fishes.
OccamKant 2 years ago
"The First Law + E=mc2 is the rule here."
Doesn't explain how Hydrogen and Helium originated though,does it,
perhaps you could enlighten us OK.
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
Go read "A Brief History of Time". I'm not a quantum physicist, and a 500 character text box on youtube is hardly the place for it.
This is where we make references to other documentation. That's how this works.
So if you want to understand the formation of helium and hydrogen, read Stephen Hawking. If you have a problem with him, then publish a paper and become famous.
OccamKant 2 years ago
He can't come up with the 6billion degree heat source, but maybe you can, you seem to have all the answers OK.
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
Are you quoting from his book? I have a copy of it here. Give me a page please where he talks about some insurmountable problem.
OccamKant 2 years ago
Well i don't have the book, but i have done enough research to know that it's all purely theoretical and even then there is no 6billion degree heat source known to Science, when you consider the hottest star is only a mere 26million degrees....where does the extra 5.75 billion degrees needed come from ?
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
The extra heat is bound up in all the matter.
After the explosion, when things were too hot to settle down, there was no matter. Then as things started to cool, basic particles "condensed", starting with protons and electrons, which form hydrogen. Atoms of hydrogen attracted each other forming clumps who's gravity was even stronger, speeding up the clumping, until eventually you had enough for a star.
Read the book. Or admit that you don't care about the truth.
OccamKant 2 years ago
" The extra heat is bound up in all the matter."
Is this proven Science or is it just another guess?
Is it the truth?
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
Educate yourself on physics. There are plenty of resources out there, and you can just start with A Brief History of Time.
All you're doing here is playing a stupid game, and I'm not going to play any more.
OccamKant 2 years ago
Dark Energy and Dark Matter are constant, remeber?
And they also fall into the realm of the Atomic Universe.
:)
So I'll ask again, where's your Scientific proof ?
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
" Educate yourself on physics."
That's rather presumptious, don't you think?
;)
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
As a last point - this "move mountain" quote from JC was right after he cursed a fig tree to death, and his homies were asking how he did it.
He basically cast a spell on the tree and killed it, and then said that his guys could do the same thing if they had faith.
So, IN CONTEXT, he's saying that you can do magic if you believe.
That's a great peter-pan message, but completely delusional.
OccamKant 2 years ago
No, YOU are saying he "cast a spell".
If you are using the bible to defeat it's own passages, then I would love for you to provide me a scripture verse that READS "Jesus cast a spell" to back up your claims.
Quit being a tool and be consistent. Don't pull this stuff out of your crapper.
vbfl920 2 years ago
I didn't say that the scripture said the words "jesus cast a spell", I said that the scripture had jesus casting a spell.
Mark 11:14Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.
That's casting a spell. He cursed the tree and it died. Hello? Spellcasting? Witches and warlocks?
If he didn't touch the tree, didn't apply poison, that it died simply by his words, that's "magic".
OccamKant 2 years ago
Are you even serious man?
HOW did the scripture have Jesus cast a spell?
How can we KNOW that's what happened?
Back this up with objective evidence instead of playing silly little games and pulling it out of your own head.
vbfl920 2 years ago
The scripture says that Jesus spoke his curse and then the next day the tree was dead. How is that NOT casting a spell? What else could it be? Was the tree ashamed when it heard Jesus' words and died of a broken heart? Are you stupid?
Obviously we KNOW this didn't happen, because that's bullshit, but we also KNOW that's what the bible says, because that's what it says.
My evidence is Mark 11:14. I'm quoting the scripture. You should try to read the bible more - it's bizarre.
OccamKant 2 years ago
Or let's put it another way:
What would "Tell a mountain to jump into the sea" sound like if you converted it from poetic speech to plain speech?
OccamKant 2 years ago
to you profmth... the greater works things that men do bit. look at modern medicine. wait wait christians their are atheist doctors too. bWAHAHAH
cruxbucket 2 years ago
What?
ProfMTH 2 years ago
i was tired allow me to clarify. you asked the question. paraphrasing here, what are the greater works that men of faith do? my response is look at modern medicine. then i said to the Christians before they harp on the point that atheists are doctors too. my attempt at a joke after being awake for 24 hours. lol
cruxbucket 2 years ago
Jesus did his "miracles" by magic. Science, including medicine, doesn't work that way.
If "greater works also" was some kind of implied connection to Jesus, then it would seem he was talking about "bigger magic", not science.
Every single bible story relies on magic, and is therefore clearly false. Either that, or magic really exists and believers are supposed to be powerful magicians.
One or the other.
OccamKant 2 years ago
any great technology to a simple mind is magic.
cruxbucket 2 years ago
So are you saying that Jesus' miracles back then was just super advanced science?
I say 'super advanced' because he apparently cured people just by touching them, which even doctors of today can't do.
OccamKant 2 years ago
im just saying magic isn't really magic its just perceived as such. chill out.
cruxbucket 2 years ago
"im just saying magic isn't really magic its just perceived as such. chill out."
It's true that today's technology sent back in time might look like magic. However, that's not what's happening in the bible.
Miracles like "feeding 5000 with 2 fishes and 3 loaves (or whatever it was)" is a physical impossibility. No matter what technology you have, you can't create matter out of nothing (it would require HUGE energy input), so that's magic.
Water to wine? Magic.
Also, I am chill.
OccamKant 2 years ago
You stole the James Randi magic theme and applied it here.....as i said before 'Toom Tabard', you're bluffing your way t6hrough this with the sole objective of somehow owning Christians....well bring it on daf-ty, God word will cut your arguments down every time.
To anyone else reading this, OckhamKant is a troll who is only interested in masterbation, he doesn't care about the truth, it's all about himself going on a cheap points scoring escapade.
It's time to grow up Ockham.
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
I'm a troll? I'm not the one making personal insults here my friend.
Keep waving that christian banner. You're really fighting the good fight, aren't you?
OccamKant 2 years ago
Well you've been trolling one of my videos for the last two days.....and even after you blocked me i allowed you to continue to post......
Oh, i see, that particular instance of trolling doesn't count because the people posting on this board didn't know about it, isn't that right Ockham?
IrresponsibleAtheism 2 years ago
If you talk to christians they will say that miracles do happen today. Preachers, christian tv... etc all make claims of miraculous healings.. etc. The question, why won't god heal amputees? Goes to show that miracles do not happen today. You can't make these claims when evidence such as this fact show it to be wrong. So, when they respond that, its ridiculous god doesn't need to heal amputees. They miss the importance of the question.
cr8zym8n 2 years ago
"They miss the importance of the question."
Indeed. And I suspect many of them "miss" it intentionally much of the time. Such questions are quite challenging to faith.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
That simple question is one of the main influences of my deconversion. Believing that miracles do occur was something I believe whole heartedly. It was at the foundation of my faith. After all, my pastor was telling me almost every week how god does miracles for those of faith. That simple question forced me to rethink my beliefs. I had to honestly reevaluate the idea of miracles. When I did, there was no getting around the fact that they do not occur.
cr8zym8n 2 years ago
Quite right.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
Prof, I will bet you hear "You are taking it out of context!" a lot!!!!!
shade421 3 years ago
It's the last refuge of the apologetic scoundrel, Shade421.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
One would assume that the most common objection to "faith moving mountains" would be the aspect of "belief". Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Given Paul's statements about the lack of faith in most professing believers, that would seem to be a logical point for apologists to make. It would, however, mean admitting they lacked the necessary faith.
azreal88 3 years ago
Augustine declared the age of miracles to have ended with the apostles, but later made an about-face.
Lohitaksha 3 years ago
Mountains are and have been symbols of might and power. They're large, magnificent, and invincible. When I read that passage the thought of it being meant in a literal manner did not even come to me. It seems unbelievably obvious to me what it is saying. "If you pray, and you believe in the Lord and that he will help you, through him you can do mighty things."
Then again, that's why people--especially Christians--need to read the Bible for themselves.
Psycanie 3 years ago
Awesome video. #1 atheist on YouTube!
templarart 3 years ago
Well, thank you very much. :-)
ProfMTH 3 years ago
or the obvious answer is that life is a miracle. Considering that "it" can't be replicated in the lab. But the good professor is wholly hung up on just one aspect of one religion to prove the greater idea that there is no deity. Why do you pick on the lowest denominator of one religion to base your intellectual prowess. Doesn't talking in such absolutes, already prove your argument invalid?
romney27 3 years ago
"or the obvious answer is that life is a miracle."
Well, that's a nice sentiment for a greeting card, Romney.
"...the good professor is wholly hung up on just one aspect of one religion...."
Am I? And what "one aspect" might that be, Romney?
"Doesn't talking in such absolutes, already prove your argument invalid?"
No.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
"that's a nice sentiment for a greeting card" an oblique reply
in the face of truth. Ok.
"And what "one aspect" might that be"
american christian fundamentalist to hang your "no god" hat on. How does that work? You take the beliefs of one group to prove that your beliefs are true. What of deities in general? What of the Jews? No demonstration of torah inconsistencies, you do know that this all started with them, context escapes your logic?
romney27 3 years ago
"Doesn't talking in such absolutes, already prove your argument invalid?" no.
I don't think my logic professor would agree. Maybe you could prove him wrong with an example of your beliefs, that don't rely on the bible. For someone how only has a one note argument, If the bible is wrong, then why not expand your sources to include other facts of your beliefs?
romney27 3 years ago
"I don't think my logic professor would agree."
Your logic professor believes/believed that absolute statements are logically problematic? The first thing that leaps to mind is the categorical syllogism -- "all men are mortal" and all that. But I'm all ears (or eyes, as the case may be).
"...why not expand your sources to include other facts of your beliefs?"
I am a former Christian who talks about the Bible. If you want to hear about other faiths, find another channel, Romney. :-)
ProfMTH 3 years ago
"logic" yeah, I understand that logic is a two way street. I was referring to the other side of the coin, the part about "if the bible is not literal, then there is no deity". Considering the broad terms of "deity" and "religion". [ not all religions have deities, there for "non deity" does not invalidate religion argument ect..] Assuming presumption of course.
romney27 3 years ago
"You take the beliefs of one group to prove that your beliefs are true."
Actually, I subject the beliefs of Christianity to scrutiny in order to demonstrate that they don't withstand it. You've merely presumed that Christianity's many flaws comprise the only reason I don't believe in any gods. Here's the thing, Romney: this is my channel, so I'll talk about what I like here. If you'd like to hear about other faiths or other matters I don't address, you're free to go elsewhere.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Thanks for the gentle push to move on professor, I find it interesting that you encourage "choice". Isn't that how it's done? People make a choice has to what to believe. But if there was no choice then your argument would be mute. Why make videos demonstrating the pressures of scrutiny, and then act as if it's impolite to banter back and forth?
Are you just looking to preach to the choir, or is scrutiny not your forte?
romney27 3 years ago
"What of the Jews? No demonstration of torah inconsistencies...."
I've covered inconsistencies in the Hebrew scriptures in many of my videos. You must not be paying attention.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Don't make a MOUTNTAIN out of a molehill. DUH... climb the mountains of life. Lifes an UPHILL battle etc etc. it's a common metaphor to speak of life's problems as mountains. Try a little harder next time.
bigwhammyRocks 3 years ago
On what basis have you decided that what the gospels have Jesus saying about moving mountains is a metaphor, BigwhammyRocks?
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Perhaps he said metaphor (or, I should say, metaphore, lol), but he meant hyperbole. And I agree that this is the best "way out" of the uncomfortable situation. For the Christian anyway.
jason666king 3 years ago
Perhaps he meant hyperbole. However, Jason, my sense is that he and many other believers have no firm commitment to a meaning and, therefore, will say whatever they think they can get away with in order to deflect a challenge.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
End (belief) justifies the means (argument), ironic huh?
jason666king 3 years ago
Indeed on both counts.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
One of the most controversial aspects of faith is that the infallibility and perfection of the laws of nature is seen as a sign of the divine, yet a violation of any of those (most perfect) laws is equally a sign of the divine. Then whatever happens, whatever the universe looks like, becomes a proof for the existence of God. It follows that for the believer the actual realization of any universe at all (whether ordered, disordered, good, bad, old, young) is irrelevant. No falsification allowed.
schrodcat 3 years ago
Excellent point, Schrodcat.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
It's not hard to put Christians in an intellectual corner, which they can't wriggle out of. Their method is almost always to evade the issue or resort to ad hominem attacks.
The Church is not moving forth in power and wisdom, accompanied by the promised signs and wonders. Christians don't understand the Bible in context, as the Jews well know.
Just as Christianity is petering out in Europe, the USA will go the same way. Christianity is effete and jaded. It will lumber to its demise.
psandbergnz 3 years ago
it is always good to hear freddie mercury singing,even if it is just for a few seconds.
NemoUtopian 3 years ago
He had a great voice.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
ARGG! The word 'miracle' another I group with 'spiritual' that are completely worthless words. What is a miracle? Something that is unlikely, or impossible? A royal flush is VERY unlikely, near impossible, yet it happens, is it a miracle, or just an unlikely probability. These types of words are worthless as their 'meanings' vary from one to another, thus the ability to transfer information with these words is lost rendering the words a detriment to language. Fucking hate them.
BayerLexan 3 years ago
Well, 'miracle' *does* have a definition, Bayer. A miracle is more than an unlikely events. It involves the suspension/violation of some law or laws of nature, e.g., bringing a dead person back to life, an amputee growing a new limb. Since those things don't happen, I can see why you view the word as useless.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Just to prove my point about the varying definitions of 'miracle', the definition I looked at had it as "an event that APPEARS inexplicable to the laws of nature..." So the way I see it, it can be an event that seems impossible (ie. an extremely unlikely event) or something that IS impossible-of course, I guess if 'it' happens it can't be a miracle, because it isn't impossible if said event occurs. I guess I'm just too much of a stickler for getting accurate info from verbal communication.
BayerLexan 3 years ago
To me the 'faith to move mountains' described as metaphor indicates that faith is incredibly powerful, thus with enough you could do such things. I think the Joness kid must have meant that the phrase was an exaggeration of faith, as a metaphor indicates something that is like something else-not less than.
BayerLexan 3 years ago
And you can't say that "Jesus took all the miracles with him" because Peter raised Tabitha from the dead (Acts 9:36).
Frankly, I don't think they had the same definition of "dead" that we do now.
middlekk 3 years ago
Perhaps they meant "dead" in the Monty Python "dead parrot" sense of the word.
fragglet 3 years ago
In reference to the 'Why won't God heal amputees' question, I recently had a Christian tell me, "He does heal amputees...ever heard of artificial limbs? God works in all sorts of ways!" I'm not kidding; I was brought to my knees with hysteric laughter.
smalltownatheist 3 years ago
It seems, Smalltownatheist, that since God is not working miracles, he's getting credit from believers for the work of humankind to solve or reduce the problems he has ignored. It's a fascinating and, as you note, often amusing misattribution of credit.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Reminds me of the time that a believer presented the argument to me that a belief that God exists is no more irrational than a belief that Antarctica exists, as I've never been there myself and have to trust "on faith" that it exists.
When you get such an utterly absurd argument, it can actually be quite difficult to refute, because if the person you're arguing against has such a completely warped sense of logic, they won't accept even the most reasonable and obvious of things.
nilsine 3 years ago
"When you get such an utterly absurd argument, it can actually be quite difficult to refute...."
Quite right, Nilsine. Thanks very much for your comment.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Great video, thanks ProfMTH :)
ashboxtoo 3 years ago
Thanks, Ashboxtoo.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Hey prof, speaking of spelling, ever get a message from a Christian talking about the "Holy Bibel"?
sonic8005 3 years ago
I have indeed, Sonic.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
sonic; you misspelled it. It's "Holey Bibel".
I've gotten that one, too.
Usually in a comment that tells me that god thinks I'm a 'fool' (as per Psalm). Or consigning me to the magic sad place unless I repent IMMEDIATELY, but then say that Karla Faye Tucker and other death row converts are in heaven (which gives me some time to ponder Pascal's wager), while Gandhi and Mother Theresa (evil Catholic, don't you know) are in hell.
middlekk 3 years ago
Dude, I was joking. I pointed out that the person who I was talking to spelled the word "Bible" wrong, and quoted how they did it... I thought that would be very clear, but apparently not enough.
Yeah, I get the "fool" thing sometimes, and always state "funny how the most popular Bible verse is really just an ad hominem attack of saying, 'yeah well you are stupid!'"
sonic8005 3 years ago
"magic sad place" excellent!
bitbutter 3 years ago
I've gone through all your old videos. When is your next video man. I need my fix :)
Thanks for all your efforts. Great stuff.
A4AgnstcFndmntlst 3 years ago
Thanks very much, A4AgnstcFndmntlst. I'll probably have a new video up on Sunday. :-)
ProfMTH 3 years ago
I always took it as a metaphor. that faith can remove obstacles in your way (such as mountains). then I interpret any passage of the Bible this way. the whole snake in the garden of Eden was a story to warn a person against foolish thinking. that's why I shake my head when I see fundees interpret the Bible so literally.
Byteshiep 3 years ago
It seems you had a general rule about not taking the stuff literally. I can related to that. It's the picking and choosing that strikes me as nothing more than a matter of expedience. Thanks, Byteshiep.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
so good
senorspiegel 3 years ago
Thanks, Senorspiegel.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
i bet your students are quaking in there boots half the time. nice video except for the bit about bringing into question someones inteligence based upon thier abillity to spell. you naughty prof. you know dishonest types would just use a spell checker. love you anyway keep up the fight all the best.
ooglebydoogleby 3 years ago
You know I thought of you when he mentioned that!! LOL!
:)
riversonthemoon 3 years ago
btw, you're improving! You only got 'intelligence' wrong in that comment.
Love ya, man.
riversonthemoon 3 years ago
whats an l between friends. ide make a lousy christian shouting mesaging people that they were going to burn in hull.
ooglebydoogleby 3 years ago
so did i LOL
ooglebydoogleby 3 years ago
"i bet your students are quaking in there boots half the time."
LOL. I don't think they are. However, just a couple of days ago someone told me that she was speaking with one of my student from this past semester who said that I was "very tough." Well, it's college after all. That said, I think the students and I have a good time while I have very high expectations of them.
By the way, I don't judge someone's intelligence by spelling. I think you missed my sarcasm there, Oogle.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
carful or i might have to do a series entitled , do ex christians mean what they say. just kidding i know you dont judge inteligence on spelling i wasnt offended. it doesnt bother me atall i have to leave some sort of critisism open to the fundies.
ooglebydoogleby 3 years ago
The selective Christian use of 'metaphor' and 'allegory' in the Bible can only be described as psychotic in nature.
thorkyll 3 years ago
...sorry, I meant pathological.
thorkyll 3 years ago
Dissonance management, I like to say, Thorkyll.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
I think Jone's interpretation of kant , suggests considering miracles as one should consider buying a lottery ticket. Buy one w/the hope you will win, but don't go in to debt expecting it. In other words "don't count on it". It raises the question as to what value the concept of "miracles" has, but that's what I get from Jones interpretation.
owheydusoapsk 3 years ago
Thanks, Owheydusoapsk. What you've described there go to presumptuousness -- so-called testing God. But that's a red herring in this discussion, which is not about, e.g., a presumptuous person cutting off her own arm and then asking God to restore it in Jesus' name. This discussion is about the role of the miraculous in the lives of believers (which the Bible clearly describes as an integral feature) and the efficacy of prayer.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
I'm about to ask this guy CRoadWarrior the same questions your asking them.
Why doesn't god heal amputees?
Of course it looks like a silly question at first glance but I'm setting him up to quote the following passages in your video.
Thanks for the reference ProfMth.
FreePrometheus 3 years ago
You're welcome, FreePrometheus.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Prof, everybody knows that God works in coincidental ways these days. Basically, he's an odds fixer that only works some of the time.
CadicusTheDamned 3 years ago
"God works in coincidental ways these days."
lol I wonder, Cadicus, if one put that on plaques and bumper stickers, how many could one sell. Love it.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
the prof at it again :) no doubt im sure if i ever do a vid response my comment will be in there somewhere.
TogetherForPeace 3 years ago
It's the back-and-forth of debate, TFP. Isn't that one of the things we're all here for? :-)
ProfMTH 3 years ago
why won't god heal amputees is not a disingenuous or unintelligent question but joness' answer shows how he is both disingenuous and obtuse. not looking at facts thru reason but thru religion. i've run into joness before. not a mean guy or anything he seems a nice enough fellow but reason has taken a holiday here....
hellshade2 3 years ago
The bible encourages magic thinking... Magic realism is great for books, but very impractical in every day life...
Atheistblindchick 3 years ago
I like fantasy novels as much as the next guy, but I tend to doubt their historical veracity...
CadicusTheDamned 3 years ago
Very impractical indeed, Atheistblindchick. Thanks for your comment.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
More great work...
Though I'm fairly certain that your response will be ignored. This is based solely on the fact that, the Bible verses supporting the questions were given in the GII video/site.
Anyways... a kinda off-topic question: how exactly do you take screenshots of the comments?
sonic8005 3 years ago
I do "print screen," Sonic. It's easy and takes just a few seconds. Hit "shift" and "print screen" simultaneously. Then go to Microsoft Photo Editor, click "Edit", and go down to "Print as New Image." It will appear on the screen for you to save and use. I usually zoom the screen size to 250% so the words come out clearly. Hope that helps.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Prof, your last several videos have been like a constant build up to smack some of these topics into the ground. I really don't think any fundamentalist can refute you at this point. You've got so much literature backing you up and so many people evading questions it's almost embarrassing. I'm sure you see now what I was telling you about Joness105639 eh? [gratuitous use of "eh" to show my Canadian heritage!]
andrewrberkshire 3 years ago
"gratuitous use of 'eh' to show my Canadian heritage!"
LOL. Andrew, as I suspect you know, I always appreciate a show of Canadian heritage. It's like one of my best friends who always spells 'favorite' f-a-v-o-U-r-i-t-e.
These are tough questions that go to some fundamental Christian claims and issues. One of things I realized in my transition to atheism was that if I have to twist and turn so much to make sense of what my faith claims, there's something wrong with what my faith claims.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
The spellchecker ALWAYS says I spell favourite, neighbour, and other similar words wrong... For some reason it resets to US English every time I open the program haha.
I also found this when I was a catholic, but it wasn't anyone asking questions, it was all introspective. Also I was forced to read the bible from genesis to revelation when I was just 7 and that gave me enough ammo