4/8 Christopher Hitchens vs Robert Wright on Religion

[huwrj]

Hitchens was essentially saying "If you say that Hitler was an atheist like me, then it is false and I am also insulted by that.". Wright didn't get it. Hitchens made sense, Wright was just flailing around and not moving on to the next point.

[rubinood]

@huwrj Wright got it - but he was amazed by a guy who demands the freedom of being able to insult anyone for their religiousness, at the same time claiming to be insulted if a criminal like Hitler is called an atheist - allowing Hitler entry into the same exclusive club that Hitchens is a member of. I think Hitchens was very well aware of the ridiculousness of his standpoint and changed the topic quickly, bringing up the buckle on German soldier's belts, blaming the church, etc.

[JohnTheHutDweller]

wow this is the first time I've seen Hitchens not holding his ground

[jimbob1969]

Hitch is drunk.Quality

[laozi1]

Hitchens reaction is bizzare. I'm astounded by it. Wright said that Hitler, Mao and Stalin seemed not to have been theists and Hitchens takes this to mean that Wright is grouping his opinions with that of National Socialism. Have I missed something here? That seems a complete non-sequitur to me.

[regelemihai]

@laozi1

That threw me off too. I think he meant to say that grouping him with socialistic regimes that have caused suffering is odious. He mixed up the two (I think).

[Shilpusuresh]

Love to see Wright give Atheists some hell. Eventually, when the Atheists have put the Fundies in their place, more intellectuals like Wright will rise up, and give the Atheists their hat and coat, "Good job, thanks for clearing the land for the rest of us. Ciao!" (PS Hope Hitch gets well soon. Love you man!)

[yerk3]

Wow, Wright is a whiny, sanctimonious little douche.

[Guedingen]

Many thanks. Hitchen's petulant sulk is a hoot!

[Lukeeeeo]

brilliant, i agree mostly with hitchens but robert wright i think is more of an honest debator even if i think hes most consistently wrong.

[Pdids01]

This whole digression appears to stem from a misunderstanding. Wright appears to think that Hitchens takes offense at the suggestion of any secular wrongdoing - when in fact he takes offense at false accusations of it.

He is upset about the mention of Hitler because he feels it's wrong, not because it's off limits.

[DammitSteve]

Hitchens's main thesis is more persuasive but he really sounds ridiculous in this particular segment. Showed a sort of self-pity that you don't usually see for him, and completely dodged the apology question.

[RAMSEY1987]

They go off on tangents all over the place but I will say one thing no Christians would ever have a debate like this, or any two people of the same faith. Secularists at least can display a level of intellectual honesty, by effectively arguing for the other side.

[nyomythus]

I may be a better Maxist than you! How do you like that "Prollier Than Thou" attitude - haha!!

[8644371]

It would be nice if Christopher and Robert could hold a linear conversation.

[anthonydavidpirtle]

The foolishness of Wright's question about religious people and doing bad things is that they do those things because they are religious. If Hitler was an atheist, he didn't do what he did in the name of atheism, in fact he did it in the name of religion, whether he did it or not.

[belzondium]

Entertaining.

[gefan3]

Okay, I manage to get (more or less) halfway through this debate before typing this but Wright is a fucking moron.

The transition from [Hitchens] "I'm sorry but Hitler was not a secularist" to [Wright] "So, no-one is allowed to hurt your feelings" is at about the level of an eleven year-old.

Embarrassing.

[IanBillings00]

Hitchens is absolutely correct, and Wright is absolutely ignorant on this point they (so loudly) discuss. It is extremely insulting to suggest that Hitler was a secular person, and did what he did because of secular non-believing reasons. This is absolutely unfounded, and there is not one shred of evidence to support the idea that Hitler was a non-believer.

As Hitchens said, the buckles are just one piece of evidence supporting his clear beliefs. Mein Kampf clearly demonstrates this as well.

[clemh57]

@IanBillings00

the german army belt buckles bearing the inscription "Gott mit uns" did, however, not originate in the Nazi era; german soldiers wore these buckles already in world war I (and possibly earlier as well), so this was simply a traditional habit of the german army (one that was, however, clearly approved of by the Nazi regime, otherwise it would no doubt have been abolished during the Third Reich).

[IanBillings00]

Yes, it is very clear that not only was Adolph Hitler a theist, but that he was evidentially supported by the Catholic Church before he began his rampage. He drew his justifications for his atrocities from the bible, and the popular teaching of the RC church at the time that the Jews, as a race, were guilty of deicide.

It is clear to anyone who has read one chapter of Mein Kampf. He clearly says he is "fighting for the work of the Lord.", as well as refering to himself as a xtian in speeches.

[DastardlyDawkins]

@IanBillings00

There's no evidence of Hitler's allegiance to any religious organisation during Nuremberg, but then, Hitchens knows this only too well, of course.

[RoninSanjuro]

When Hitch gives multiple examples of good people doing wicked things in the name of religion, he knows hes insulting religious folk. Wright doesnt seem to understand that hes insulting atheists when he says that Hitler did what did because he was a nonbeliever rather than just an evil son of a bitch.

[laozi1]

@RoninSanjuro - Wright doesn't say that Hitler did what he did because he was a nonbeliever. Where did you get that from? Why do you wantonly misinterpret what Wright said. Are you a moron? And yes that was intended to be insulting. Get over it!

[niginit]

This was the most significant exchange so far. They finally got to the action.

Hitchens destroys him here. Anyone who thinks there was ANYTHING secular about Nazism and Hitler has just excused themselves from the discussion.

It's disgusting to hear these lies perpetuated. Just like religion itself, their lies go on and on, through simple word of mouth. No evidence, no proof will sway their belief. It's the absolute failure to think.

Religion thinks Hitler is their ace in the argument. lol

[niginit]

Hitchens debates, people start shouting.

They lose.

[Locateson]

According to Wright, Hilter was not a theist. Wow, just wow.

[idigdirt1]

I love listening to Hitchens debate and have watched most of his vids that are posted on youtube- I think Wright has done as good a job as any sparring with Hitch.

[Subrosa2222]

Perhaps Wright is an award winning journalist and has significant merit as a scholar. However, it seems quite clear that he should maintain his forum to paper rather then video/audio. Reminds me of Tom (Wright) vs Spike (Hitchens) in Tom & Jerry cartoons in the days of my youth. Very poor/childish analogy, but point is I am not sure I can make it through all 8 video with Wright's grating manner.

[charlesvan13]

His voice sure is grating, like finger nails on the chalkboard.

[charlesvan13]

I even spoke too soon. He gets even more intolerable later in the video.

[charlesvan13]

Somebody turn down the treble on Wright's microphone.