Senna vs Schumacher - 1991 Italian Grand Prix

[hunt2727]

I think that Alain Prost, and other engineers of Mclaren would tell you that Senna had favouritism in Mclaren, because Honda was backing Senna and not Prost.

It is a shame for Senna that, with Honda favouritism could not be able to score more points than Prost in 88 and neither in 89. In adition, Prost was champion in 89.

Only race Prost had his Honda engine as he wanted was France 88: the result was Prost destroyed Senna.

Later, in 92, Schumacher without electronics destroyed senna also.

[MrTrophyNuts]

On Michael Schumacher's wikipedia profile there is an entire section dedicated to controversy, this section is absent on Senna's and Prost's wikipedia pages.

[hunt2727]

And glad because we agree : Schumacher had not any electronic aid in 1994!

Only bad losers said that, but it was proved that they did not use any illegal electronic aids.

With that, schumi was the man to beat in 1994.

[irishguy200007]

@hunt2727 I think Jos Verstappen might have a different opinion regarding electronic driver aids on the Benetton.

[hunt2727]

So I´m glad to finally find that we agree.

Agree that Mclaren had a fantastic car in Donington 93, the best with those electronic aids.

And agree that Schumacher never went to the best team. Neither Jordan, nor Beneton, nor Ferrari, nor Mercedes.

Glad to see where Barrichello was following races in wet in 95, 96, and so on... while Schumacher did incredible demonstrations repeating the show in barcelona 92 in wet, destroying Ayrton Senna, both without any electronics.

[hunt2727]

By the way, how can anyone say that Schumacher went to a dominant team in 2010? I think this is another mistake of a Senna fan... or of a Schumacher hater...

Yes, Jenson Button was champion in 2009 with Brawn but these were the results of Jenson since the 7th race in turkey´09: 6, 5, 7, 7, 15, 2, 5, 8, 5... Yes, you can see, a dominant car...

It´s sad how many Schumacher haters have no idea of F1.

[DALCOLDARA]

@hunt2727 In December 2009 Schumacher joined the winners of both the drivers and constructors titles in 2009.hE JOINED WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS THE BEST TEAM.

[hunt2727]

Well, I think that if Senna would had scored, overall, in 84, 85, and 86 more points than Prost, every fan would tell it loud, as another proof of greatness of Senna.

But I´m used to see how for many Senna´s fans the same fact with Senna is great, but with other driver is not.

Something similar as in donington 93, with that Mclaren full of electronic aids. But not many Senna fan tells that, they only tell about "magic". Even the Mclaren of Andretti overtook Schumi in that race... What a joke!

[DALCOLDARA]

@hunt2727 Well Senna didn't outscore Prost during that period so Senna fans don't 'tell it loud' unlike you boasting about Schumachers non achievements.Donington 93 regarded by knowledgeable people as a fantastic drive by Senna.Yes Andretti overtook Schumacher but then again so did Barrichello who stayed ahead in only his third race ever and was driving a Jordan.Still at least Senna was using legal aids unlike Schumacher the following year

[hunt2727]

Your comparison between Hill and Schumacher is good, but Hill did not score more points than Schumacher until the last race they did together, and that´s more important.

Your comparison is good, but just consider Schumi went to an inferior team in 96, not like Senna. Senna tried always to have the best car in order to win with the best car, not like Schumi.

Schumi has balls to compete in inferior car like the Mercedes, and balls to compete at 43.

Senna in inferior car almost quit crying in 93!

[wcub4]

@hunt2727 Schumacher never had the balls to go head to head against great drivers and relying on being #1 in the team. Unlike Senna who had no fear of challenging any driver in their own team.

[DALCOLDARA]

@hunt2727 During the 93-96 period Hill outscored Schumacher by 21 points so it didn't come down to the last race.Senna only once joined a dominant team that was Williams.'Schumi has balls to compete in inferior car like the Mercedes' Bloody laughable.The team Schumi signed for was the dominant 2009 Brawn team.Signed a three year contract for a team he thought would be dominant that ended up crap.I would imagine Senna would have relished the choice to drive at 43.

[hunt2727]

I don´t understand why some Senna´s fans are lying again and again. Of course Schumacher scored more points than Senna from his 4th race until 1st may 1994. Being a child. That´s incredible, and I suppose that if Senna had done that with Lauda for example, many Senna´s fans would praise that.

[wcub4]

@hunt2727 So Lewis Hamilton is then the best driver in F1 history?

[DALCOLDARA]

@hunt2727 Then I would suggest the next time you add up the figures you get help because you don't seem to be able to manage it on your own.From Schumacher's 4th race Spain 91 to Imola 94 both drivers scored 136 points with Schumacher only gaining parity with Senna dying on a hospital bed.

[hunt2727]

It´s Incredible. some Senna´s fans as usually, can not chat or comment.

They always say things like "you´re idiot" , "all you say is stupid things" and so on.

I suppose some Senna´s fans don´t have any other arguments to defend Senna.

the truth is Senna was not able to score more points than Schumacher since Schumacher forth race in Formula 1. Schumacher scored more points, overall, than Senna, since that, in september 1991 until the last race they did together.

[DALCOLDARA]

@hunt2727 Therefore by your logic because Hill scored more points than Schumacher from 93-96 he was the better driver during that four season period.Schumacher did not score more points than Senna from September 91.No matter how you try to manipulate the statistics the bottom line is during the period they raced together Senna scored more points,won more races and pole positions.

[Chis007topher]

Schumacher THE BEST DRIVER !!! SINCE 1991 Untouchable !!!

[IAKKHOS100]

SENNA CAGÃO

[jeanclaude780]

The best driver of all time doesnt exist. End of story. It is not Senna or Schumacher or Clark.

[sobotica]

senna , piece of shit! Arrogant pussy!

[TagPillay]

The Williams FW16 was a Formula One car used by the Williams team for the 1994 Formula One season. It was designed by Adrian Newey, driven by 3-time champion Ayrton Senna . Besides the Renault RS6, V10 engine horsepower rating was 100hp above the Benneton Cosworth V8 driven by a 22-year old unknown rookie called Michael Schumacher who had no driving experience, except for kart racing. Despite this horsepower advantage, the Benetton dominated the first half of the season but the Williams was muc

[tonypap1]

Just don't know why there's so many "expert" opinions on here telling us that Senna was the best or Schumacher was the best. 2 different eras.

Senna spent the bulk of his time racing against a higher calibre of driver and spent less time in a dominant car (exception of 1988 and 98). However, it's also unfair on Schumacher, to say that he simply "wasn't as good". From day 1 Schumacher certainly looked "at home" in the presence of the top drivers. And in an (at the time) inferior Benetton Ford.

[MasterofSpiders]

Saw the Fondmetal getting in the way and thought to myself "Bet that's Groulliard". Sure enough Murray comfirms for me.

[JJK247no1]

Schumacher is better than Senna in my opinion because of his ability to develop benetton and then ferrari into the best cars, Senna went into the best car in mclaren and after prost left mclaren lost the dominance it had in '88 for example.Senna was better over 1 lap but Schumacher had better strategic skills which is why he has more wins than poles.

[GTAGIS]

@JJK247no1 If you go to Pat Symonds or Rory Byrne themselves, they will tell you that Schumacher is not an engineer driver like Senna. The bla bla of mass media about this is therefore refuted by engineers themselves . Schumacher benefited from the lack of knights like Senna, and the requirement of a F1 "hero" to fill the gap.Moreover, Ecclestone & Mosley have finally made Ferrari win and the legend could survive again.The process was long & the one supposed to benefit was Senna

[GTAGIS]

@JJK247no1 Did you know for instance that the contract Schum signed first was a "Senna contract": it was prepared by Senna & Di Montezemello, during many discussion and it became very clear at the end of 1993, that Senna who have signed for 2 years was about to move to Ferrari for 3+2 years options.The contractual agreements between Schum & Ferrari used the "Senna contract" as base for major lines. F1 then had its "new hero" and Ferrari was supposed to make him a legend.

[GTAGIS]

@JJK247no1 This is the reason why when Schum , in 1995, wanted to move to McLaren, his manager Willi Webber & Mr E pushed him to Ferrari. He was double champion, but still not a legend, Ferrari was supposed to give him this stamp...Schum is a good driver, but far from being in the same category as Senna , very far from....

[reinaldomzk]

I have no doubt Senna is the best driver ever

[Killfist]

Schumacher's a phenomenal driver.

[medonhoblu]

SENNA, LIKE A BOSS !!!

[tomitamugen]

essa.....foi FACIL!!!!

[arturcraft2]

@tomitamugen sim, com 50 cavalos a mais de um Honda V12 contra um motor horrivel V8 que da péssima dirigibilidade.

[Oric007]

SENNA THE BEST!

[sguitas]

The big diference is that Senna never had the best car

[itzrichardz]

@sguitas he's had the best car in alot of race's tbh

[hristoitchov]

@itzrichardz Nonsense. Apart from 88 and 89, he has never had the top car. And in 88 and 89 he had Prost as a teammate, so he has never had it easy in his career.

[arturcraft2]

@hristoitchov lol. In 90,91 Senna had the fastest car and even average Berger was making some poles

[sargatanas88]

@arturcraft2 you are talking bullshit. In 91 Williams Renault FW 14 was recognised as being the fastest car, even an everage driver like Patrese won two races (Berger only one) and a couple of poles. The best indicator for team superiority are double victories in qualifying and races. In both Williams Renault achieved better numbers. McLaren Honda at the end had more points due to reliability reasons.

[roobberyy]

@sguitas oh for sure :D senna always have shit cars ;) i think you can´t remember 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991

[sguitas]

@roobberyy 88 and 89 only... 90's honda was not that good...

In this video the Shumacher's car is much faster (1991), i guess 15 horse power faster... Others cars too

[roobberyy]

@sguitas ok, but the car with the most horsepower is not the fastest :D hamiltons mclaren this year has more hp as vettels renault... and we know the result. contructors championship 1991: 1.) mclaren 139 points........ 4.) benetton 38,5 points. i can´t see where schumi is faster than ayrton in this vid ?!

[sguitas]

@roobberyy Dude, in our days there is so many things that the car MUST have to be good, not only engine. 20 years ago too, but not like today. Thats for sure. Other example: old car with 100 hp + 15 hp = 15% more engine. New car with 500 hp + 15 hp = 3% more engine. I can write much more, but i cant in youtube...

In this vid Schumi is not faster than Senna becouse the driving skills of Senna, but see this vid:

/watch?v=5MEG88C3Mp0

I'm sure that schumi is a excelent driver, but Senna is a legend

[tortoise117]

@sguitas To be fair, both Schumi and Senna are legends. Who people prefer is down to opinion and what people value in a driver.

[joyfulvulture]

@sguitas

"In this vid Schumi is not faster than Senna becouse the driving skills of Senna"

yeah just ignore the fact that the mclaren was way better than the benetton.

tyical brazilian: a complete idiot.

[VColossalV]

@sguitas This was Schumi's second EVER race, and he was competing with senna already?

[Hungary599]

@VColossalV Senna was leading, but he had to make a tyre change, thus he dropped back behind Schumacher.

[arturcraft2]

@sguitas congratulations. You wrote one of the most inacurate things ever, on youtube. Mclaren was a rocket with a V12 Honda engine with 710ch of power while Benetton had a shitty Ford Cosworth V8 with only 660ch. Not only Mclaren had much more power but V12 gives much more driveability than crappy V8s.

Aditionally, Mclaren had more downforce.

What is the next thing that you will claim, that Mercedes GP was faster than Red Bull in 2010 and 2011? lol

[arturcraft2]

@sguitas rofl

[refleXstarr]

Schumacher was the greatest because he won more races and more championships than anyone. Senna was great but just because he died doesn't make him the greatest, it just makes it sad.

[hristoitchov]

@refleXstarr Statistics don't make you great... Only a fool who doesn't look beyond statistics would use them as a reference for greatness.

[kynigh]

@refleXstarr Too bad Schummi needed some *cough* team orders *cough*... numbers don't make anyone the best...

[VColossalV]

@kynigh They actually do, statistics reflect how good of a diver they are tbh. Ferrari was awfull when schumi first went with them, and benetton definitely wasnt the fastest car when he won the 94/95 championships.

[lambosforusal]

@kynigh team orders are part of formula 1! back in the sixties and seventies (many consider the golden era in F1) teambosses were waving and showing with signs to make the drivers aware of an teamorder, nobody cared then. but now you have all those haters who don't unsterstand anything about the sport, and with teamorders they see a chance to hate. last F1 race, Vettel sertainly did't had a gearbox problem, webber was alowed to win for the sake of him and the fans. Webber- Vettel silverstone?

[lambosforusal]

@refleXstarr agreed, senna had become a lengend because he died. sure he was extremely good, maby even the best quali driver ever. but nog the best racer. he won his 3 championship with the dominant mclaren, that already was dominant when he joined mclaren. schumi made ferrari and benneton great.

[BiggerThinking1]

@lambosforusal you havent got a fucking clue what ur talking about- i raced for 10 years and even better people than me all agree Senna was the greatest driver of all time - not "just" quali (though that itslef would be enough for the claim) - but ALSO as a racer! You have no fucking clue! Schui is a chump compared with the mighty Senna!

[lambosforusal]

@BiggerThinking1 so if senna didn't die, and schumacher would have won his first and second chamionship with benneton (which probbably would have happended concidering that the williams wasn't the best car in 94 and 95). i dont thinks that senna would be seen as the best then. people put him at the top because he died when he was champion, that has always something mythical about it. people stop looking at facts. and you have fallen for that trick, with your "mighty" Senna.

[sargatanas88]

@lambosforusal idiot. people don´t put him at the top because he died, but because he he did race against by far superior cars in 1993 (Prost and Hill) and nearly won the championship. legendary races as Interlagos or Donington shows how strong Senna was. Prost said in an interview: in an equal car Senna wins! What concerns 94 and 95, well Damon Hill was close to win the championship and there is no doubt Hill could do nothing against Magic. In Brasil the difference between the two was 1.5 sec!

[arturcraft2]

@sargatanas88 because it started raining right after Senna made his quick lap and others, who would do faster times as well, couldn't improve their initial slow times. In other tracks, Hill was much closer and in all of them circunstances secured Senna's pole. Worst track in 2nd qualifying at Aida secured Senna's time in 1st one as pole. Quite the same happened in Imola, 2nd qualifying had no real competition because of Ratzenberger's death

[hristoitchov]

@arturcraft2 What nonsense are you spilling out, it's incredible. Go triple check your facts, because none of them are true...

[arturcraft2]

@hristoitchov ok, if you wanna believe Mclaren was not the fastest car in many ocasions in 90,91 seasons, that's up to you.

[sargatanas88]

@arturcraft2 the truth is Hill, after a good 93 season, was psycologically knocked out in the first races of 94, he really drove not at his personal level. A similar thing happened to Berger in 91 beginning. In Phoenix Berger was over 2 sec. slower than Senna without reason. In Brazil Senna was ahead of Berger even with a smashed gearbox. Later on in the season both Hill and Berger showed how great drivers they were.

[SchumiSutil]

And 1995 ? Willams was the fastest car by a country miles...

[tommykl]

In 2000, the McLaren was quicker than the Ferrari, but Newey, as per usual, made a fast but unreliable car, so Ferrari won through consistency. In 2003, it could be argued that the Williams was the best car, but Montoya and little Schu were probably not the best drivers to have.

Anyway, when people ask me who is best between Senna and Schumacher, I say Fangio. No doubt about that.

[jls7227]

@tommykl

I'll second that. They were all great drivers, but Fangio always did what Senna and Schumacher sometimes forgot to do: fair play. He was a real gentleman.

[tommykl]

Schumacher is definitely one of the best drivers of all time, because of his unmatchable commitment to perfection. He didn't tolerate any kind of mistake, and he had the almost perfect team behind to win from 2000 to 2004. 1994 and 1995 were more indicative of his driving skill than his five other titles. The only titles he won in a car which was not the fastest were in 94 and 2000 (and possibly 2003). In 1994, it was because it took Hill and Williams too long to get their act together.

[fabiano75s]

@tommykl Schumacher has always had the best cars! He spotted several times his career with the dirt from the Ferrari! Watch Senna's races were exciting! Watching the Schumacher 's races were boring !

[Conquerer13]

@nagash303 There is no typo, that's what it says.

[Conquerer13]

@nagash303 It was never re-edited. You read it wrong in the first place if you thought there was a typo.

[sargatanas88]

@nagash303 you understand nothing.

[TheEdRock77]

schumacher and senna = two angels of racing

[mhoyko1]

What a times !!!... Mansell, Prost, Pique, Schumacher, Berger, SENNA... That is F1 !

[D10LMA]

Qual carro era melhor, idiotas?

[mohawkman251988]

Both drivers with so much skill. I think Senna would still have been competitive for years to come if he hadn't died at Imola. RIP Senna.

[zardinho]

Schumacher and Piquet, on the same team.

[ciprianito9]

EN CUAL IBA SHUMACHER,EL AMARILLO O EL ROJO???? SALUDOS

[baronrojo11]

@ciprianito9

Senna iba en el Mc Laren rojo con blanco schumacherr en el benneton azul y amarilo

[Eof27m]

Senna, winner in advance, gives a victory for Berger Schumacher was champion after Ferrari ordered Barrichello to leave the path. Who has the true spirit of champions?

[erwinruys]

@Eof27m Senna hitting Prost, enough said.

[G0007]

LEGENDS

[SuperHardTrance]

GREAT MOVE Like most of Senna's moves. But i think here you can see the difference between the 2... Schumacher in a slow car can compete... Senna only got top result with by far the fastest car. Senna always went to the fastest car, Schumacher went to a slow Bennetton and Ferrari and made them fast.

[MrAkhamis]

@SuperHardTrance this is completely, the other way around, the bennetton was a very fast car in 1991, the ferrari was a very very fast car when shumacher was with them, after all, he is not the one who made the car, he is not a mechanic, neither senna nor shumacher can make cars faster. They can just drive fast if they have that !

[ImFasterThanTheStig]

@MrAkhamis The Ferrari of 1996, 97 and 98 was not at all as good as MSC made it look. He won a title in 1995 with an inferior Benetton, as the Williams was the car to beat in 95, in 97 and 98 MSC was fighting for the WDC until the last round and in 2000 the Ferrari was also inferior to the McLarens.

[erwinruys]

@MrAkhamis That's bullshit, a driver can make a car look good or do you think that the Toleman in 1984 was that good?

[arturcraft2]

@MrAkhamis lol, Benetton was crap in 91, way slower than the rocket Mclaren. Even in 94/95 the Benetton was not that good. And in Ferrari, only after 2000 that they started to make good cars.

[sargatanas88]

@arturcraft2 thats a half truth. Benetton surely was not at McLarens level in 91, but in 94 their car was very good. Even Schumacher said that was the car with the best handling he drove in the 90s. The weak point was the Ford engine had not the top power especially of Renault.

[DALCOLDARA]

@SuperHardTrance 'Senna always went to the fastest car'.Utter rubbish.After various offers in 83 including one from Mclaren he chose Toleman.From Toleman on to Lotus who hadnt won for three years.He signed for Mclaren in 87 during Williams domination and in 93 signed for Williams who were dominant that year.By the way Schumacher wasnt the only common denominator between Benetton and Ferrari. I'm sure Byrne,Todt,Brawn etc had some imput.Amazing how Brawn could turn the Honda around without Schumi

[SuperHardTrance]

@DALCOLDARA when he was well known he went to the fastest teams. Thats a fact. He only won championships in the very fastest car. Schumacher won in 94 and 2000 when he did not have the fastest car. But yes you are right im sure brawn etc did have something to do with it. And Brawn along with Adrian Newy are the best designers out there so yes Brawn did great job with out Schumacher also.

[DALCOLDARA]

@SuperHardTrance With respect it is not a fact.Senna only once signed for a dominant team.That was for Williams in 93.Furthermore he only won one championship with the fastest car.That was in 88 racing with an all time top five driver Prost as a teammate with no team orders.Ferrari and Williams had caught up in 90 and 91 respectively.All of Senna's titles were decided at Suzuka the penultimate round.He never had the luxury of having the title rapped up during the summer.

[DALCOLDARA]

@SuperHardTrance It's a well known fact the 94 Williams was ill handling until it was upgraded later during the season.The Williams was a faster car but the Benetton was better handling.Schumacher drove well in 94 but he was only racing Hill.Shows the limits to Hill's capabilities that year that Schumacher can be disqualified from one race and banned from two and he still couldn't win the championship.9 wins 12 podiums in 2000 for Schumacher that Ferrari really was dire

[SuperHardTrance]

@DALCOLDARA can say the same about any driver if your going to be like that man

[arturcraft2]

@SuperHardTrance yes, you summed it up.

[Gil2009souza]

Espetacular Senna!!!!!!!!! Chupa alemão fela da put@

[fabiano75s]

Chupaaaaa alemão voçê enfrentou um brasileiro de verdade !!!

[arturcraft2]

@fabiano75s Senna tinha um carro BEM melhor e com motor muito mais potente. Isso foi o que ele enfrentou aí. rs

[Paganbaske]

Awesome images!!!