EXAMINED LIFE (Clip)

[logfio]

2 people's lives are not worth living.

[amielb66]

@violencerunsunabated Singer addresses your point in the same article he mentions in the trailer (about saving the child in a shallow pond). It's been awhile, but I think he says that even if you believe that a Malthusian scenario will occur, there is still an obligation to reduce suffering - by reducing the number of potential future dying people- by contributing to sex education, contraceptives, etc.

[toomity]

i enjoyed this video. one question i'd like to ask Peter Singer though is whether he makes a distinction between someone unable to fulfil their basic needs in a first world country or someone in a similar circumstance in a third world country. Singer seems to be of the opinion that sufferers in third world countries are inherently more in need of aid than sufferers in first world countries. please reply if you disagree (or agree), i'd like to hear your opinions.

[amielb66]

@toomity Singer is a consistent and strict utilitarian, as far as I am aware (he considers morally relevant animals too). I don't see why he would distinguish between 1st/3rd world people, except regarding the production of utility. The issue (I believe) is that there are many more very destitute people in third world countries, and providing a relatively small amount of resources could drastically improve these peoples' lives. In the US, for example, the resources would do less good.

[melodramatic100]

Hi, I'm considering buying this series for a year 9 school unit I am working on. It will be shown to 15-16 yr olds. Of those who have seen this - do you think it is appropriate for this age bracket?

thanks.

[cyanscreens]

@melodramatic100

No, Singer is the more straightforward one in the movie simply because he's still working within our current paradigm. 15-16 yrs old will miss the subtleties of what the other philosophers say in the movie. 17-18 yr olds might appreciate this more, even then, they'll probably freak out a little.

[melodramatic100]

@cyanscreens thanks - I thought as much but the series was advertised in a school resources booklet .

[violencerunsunabated]

Suppose someone gives a certain amount of money to a charity, and that money is used to save the lives of ten children. If these children then grow up and each have five kids of their own, 50 kids total, and the amount of aid available has not increased enough by this time to sustain THEIR lives, and most or all of them die, then isn't the person who gave the money to save their parents' lives responsible for ending more lives than they saved? I'm just trying to discuss this, not arguing.

[sfmike20]

Sometimes when I stop and look at the people in the world around me, I am struck with the thought, what a bunch of self important apes we are. I do not, by any means, exclude myself from this rather unflattering portrayal of man, but admit wholeheartedly, and somewhat shamefully, that I am taken in by all kinds of socially reinforced presuppositions about greed, and capitalist ideals. We need to A: try to stop thinking like this, or B: accept some blame for those who died for us to live this way

[eldagr]

It's easier making a critic than going deeper into a problem, I think. But since we're living among contrapositions and performances, I believe that is better being sensitive in real life than pretending to be.

[Elenalouisa]

Peter SInger is the paradigm philosopher of the type where stupid meets dangerous. He tells us that Unicef is better than Dolce and Gabbana (stupid), and advocates Euthanasia (dangerous). The two go together, though. This is the romanticism of the bourgeois mind ("people are bad, not capitalism").

[misplacedsociety]

I have always appreciated Singer's article, but I have also come to appreciate Onora O'neill's Kantian approach to poverty as well. She puts a lot more emphasis on helping people in a way that preserves their autonomy. Singer says that we could stop giving money to countries until they get their population under control. I'm not sure I can support such paternalistic measures.

[jstreet2]

Freud thought the best we can hope for is to bring unconscious drives into consciousness and by making them conscious we can exert control over them instead of being controlled by them obsessively.

But after watching the rise of Adolf Hitler and being forced to flee his German speaking homeland when he was past the age of 80 and in poor health, he became pessimistic about even this modest hope.

Most people are controlled by emotion and don't respect reasonable arguments based on experience.

[jstreet2]

Nietzsche, Charles Peirce and Emile Chartier, among many other philosophers, thought that we have no PRIVILEGED knowledge about ourselves and that the self is just like any other thing to be known in the world. That is, the concept of SELF is vague and even illusory.

Zen would certainly agree. A koan: "Who were you before you were born?"

Freud taught that self deception and illusion about the self are part of normal human consciousness and that we can never know ourselves well.

[jstreet2]

Most people don't respect reason.

They pretend to listen and follow arguments but they follow emotion and good feelings instead.

All you have to do is to reason (think) about the concept of Consenting Adults, for example, to see that it is riddled with problems. But some people still throw that little piece of unreason at people who object to homosexuality or any other form of sexual behavior between adults (Hugh Heffner?)

[Cardywhite111]

what if you have the courage to love a work migrant who doesnt want to work, who wants to be free and wants you to send him money...a bit more than the price of a pair of shoes for him and his family. am I helping the poor or being controlled by love or simply choosing to spend my money unwisely.

[kinkabala]

thats what the governments for ..

[kives1985]

I think most people in famine prone areas who were "lazy" wouldn't last long.

[Cardywhite111]

I agree but there is lazy and there is lazy...i think I am a love dependant...so I am enabling a man who walks a fine line between being lazy and doing just enough to rock my boat... I am lazy too so we fit somewhere in the middle...I am old as well and he has youth on his side.

[blueingreentrain]

dont put it on the consumer. put it on the banker!

[sugarsean1]

peter singer....dissapointing philsophy

[johnpaulbelk]

I need to see the complete documentary for school. Where can I seeit

[yammyspeed13]

This poor guy labors under the false assumption that money can cure poverty when in fact it is liberty that is the key to the human condition.

[mongreltongue]

Poverty = lack of money/resources...  redistributing money/resources to the poor would end poverty. This has nothing to do with happiness, liberty, or "the human condition". It is about raw physical resources.

[yammyspeed13]

Yeah, and when and where has that ever worked?

[mongreltongue]

I agree that just throwing money at a problem is usually not effective. However, giving resources to those that need them -- strategically -- will do much more to combat famine, poverty, and disease than just pronouncing people free. Free people die and starve all of the time. Liberty is wonderful and people should be free, but it is intangible and hasn't got too much to do with poverty. I do not think that we should just give... but other places really lack resources, infrastructure, etc.

[MadamTango]

I saw it last night. It's more than worth watching--a must watch.

[nxal2]

This seems a thought-provoking film. Can't wait to see it!

[spiker27a]

livelikemad I'm not saying anyone should be killed.

I'm simply saying there is too many people on this planet. If you look at satellite photos, cities look like concrete crust that is only spreading. If this continues, humans species will die off unless people get it through their thick skulls that we are part of nature rather then trying to separate ourselves from it.

[HwarangOfFaith]

yeah.. our civilization looks like cancer.. nothing else.

[alhambrapromo]

well, those who usually have many children are not the ones consuming the most ressources...

[spiker27a]

We have too many people on this planet. I know this sounds harsh but in many places in the world these poor people do nothing but breed like rabbits. If you can't afford to feed your children, you should not be having any.

[spinozareagan]

Good capitalist. Now go read Malthus and pretend that your ideology is moral.

[livelikemad]

to many people on this earth?

stop calling on others to act. just kill yourself.

-c

[fenosan]

@livelikemad

Right on my Bloodah. What method do you suggest?

[kives1985]

"breed like rabbits" Birthrates are a function of the structure of the system. There's a reason why they're so high, it's because they need to be. One, so at least one kid will survive. And two, because having more kids is economically beneficial: it gives you more power.

So, actually, in "those countries", "wealthy" people tend to have more kids. Like, if you have more cows, you will have more kids.

Wealth isn't always measured in dollar signs.

[kives1985]

Oh, and if you think that, then you should be giving your money to population control programs to prevent famine.

[ribar3]

@spiker27a Totally agreed. All of the major problems we are facing right now, birth/death ratio is the biggest cause of all that. We find alternate solutions to the problems but the real solutions lie within our spreading and multiplying.

"You can't live with infinite people on a finite planet". Then there is this:

"The human mind is infinite on demands, but the planet is finite on supplies"

[savagepug]

I went to go see this but it was sold out :( Anyone know what song it is that they use at the end of the clip?

[milkyvalour]

Some kid in a third world country probably made the shoes to begin with.

So the question is: should we pay a corporation (i.e. charity) to take care of the world's problems without our direct involvement, or should we buy the shoes and supportive the (albeit, low) wage of sweatshop workers who would in all likeliness prefer the financial security of industry relations as opposed to the uncertainty of other means of income (i.e. child prostitution)?

[5bOrOsCHiC]

I agree with MILKY VALOUR

[kives1985]

See, the thing is though, on an individual level, your money sent to charity is going to do greater good than the money spent on shoes.

[james0apple]

@kives1985 but what if the money you spend on the shoes is given to charity by the store owner? what if the store does so much business the owner gives large amounts of his profits to charity? ultimately, you can never know what is exactly the best way to use your money so i don't accept ethical presuppositions that it is always better to give to charity, but still we can usually know that giving to charity probably isnt a the worst way to use money.

[kives1985]

@james0apple

No. In the real world, you're choosing to buy shoes, and that money could save multiple lives. And yes, sending money to Oxfam is going to save more lives than buying Prada shoes. That's the way it is. If you can find a pair of fancy shoes, and there is a promise to a percentage amount of money on charity, than I guess that's good. Although a lot of things that are advertised as "green" or "sustainable" are not really. It just takes research, if you care enough. Most people don't.

[dan46and2]

Peter is always thought provoking for those that have not heard his ideas.

[bigdaddydylan]

So far, my conclusion is that the examined life leads to a firm conclusion that life is not worth living.

[MeatyCockandBallz]

So this nonsense is what passes for serious intellectual thought these days?

[gotrektom]

Which are your reproaches? Interested in hearing any criticism ...

[HeTkO]

...says someone who goes by the name "Meaty Cock and Ballz". I can't help but point out that the credibility of your discontent is enormously diminished by your choice of pseudonym. Try coming up with at least a marginally less immature nickname. Better yet, try reading the some of the work these philosophers have written; maybe it'll make more sense to you then.

[illbreath]

Says the A-Hole who calls themself MeatyCockandBallz. Right.  Lots of intellectual thought went into the creation of that moniker.

[akiblue]

Condemning a person for his pseudonym makes you the A-hole. Maybe his balls and cock are meaty, just as I'm sure your breath is ill.

[dxward]

what a load.

[nuscholar1979]

Insightful clip.

[steviepotter]

now what do i do?

[Jprotevi]

Read Singer, Thomas Pogge, Leif Wenar, on global poverty. They each have some interesting ideas. Plus, you could donate to Oxfam, Unicef, Doctors without borders, the red cross, or any of the great relief organizations out there.

[TyedSoul]

wow that made me a bit sick...

[natural]

Just saw the film tonight at the Toronto Film Festival. It was amazing, I fell in love with it. It got a standing ovation and you could tell everyone was blown away by it.

I was lucky to have a one and one conversation with the director. She was very down to earth and sweet.

[dangerousd666]

interesting....