Israeli "Self Defense" - Noam Chomsky

[thereinliesgreatness]

Palestinians inhabited their land for thousands of years before the Synagogue of Satan stole it away in 1948 just as the native American indians inhabited their land for 11,000 years before it was stolen away.

[diceyLee]

@urielrabo And How big was the state that was agreed upon in 1948.... and where does that same state's perimeter compare to in 1948...

and what happened to the residence of Palestine in 48?

[elachechino]

The Palestinians' Covenant unabashedly lists Israel's destruction as its desideratum. They back up their rhetoric with missiles and suicide bombers.

In our Orwellian world, liberals espousing democracy demonize the Middle East's only democracy, all the while admiring, condoning or at least tolerating dictators bent on world domination, the subjugation of their own people, and the eradication of the Middle East's only democracy.

[eartina]

Israel broke ceasefire and went to kill new ministers in Gaza.

[eartina]

Jews cut Gaza from the world and closed borders. But first they moved all illegal settlers out and left ruins behind. In special news it was, that Israel planed to bomb Gaza. Hamas promised to deal for peace and people voted Hamas for Government. Hamas recognized Israel and 2x asked for meeting. Israel refused and instad broke ceasefire and went to shoot new ministers.

[earlyAMbirds]

Idiot Chomsky. Pathological maniac. Israel is NOT occupying an INCH of Gaza - but that didn't stop Hamas from launching missiles NONSTOP as SOON as Israel pulled out of Gaza in '05 as a "goodwill gesture". Chomsky should first explain, in his infinite wisdom, how THAT'S ok. Yes, Israel is defending itself against a terrorist organization that finds backing from Iran. You wanna defend the terrorists? GO AHEAD. Maybe you'll find your head hanging from a post sometime soon.

[AntonBatey]

The withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 was just a project to expand settlements in the West Bank. Also, there is a way for the rockets to stop: have Israel agree to the peace treaty, whidch lasted from June, 2008 until November, 2008, when Israel broke it and killed 6 Hamas members in Gaza.

[jameshanley40]

@AntonBatey

From what I recall, Hamas were still firing rockets during that time. Just less..And they were getting more weapons in. Their media called it a Hudna(which means "hang on while I reload my rifle").

Anyhow.

Arabs have been attacking israel with suicide bombings from Gaza, during the time of Sharon. That was around 2001.Whatever reason they had for that, is still the same reasons they'd have for firing rockets.Just different methods to do the same job of destroying israel.

[AntonBatey]

@jameshanley40

No. From mid-June until November 4th, Hamas didn't fire any rockets. Israeli sources confirm that even.

[jameshanley40]

@AntonBatey

No, I was right, the Total rockets and mortar shells fired was 38 during the mid june to Nov 4th.. So rockets were fired, just less rockets. Also Hamas terrorist operatives had dug a tunnel near the fence, to go under the fence, to infiltrate into Israel.. Israel did its clean operation on Nov 4th, destroying the tunnel and killed 7 hamas terrorist operatives, no civilians. Hamas responded with over 200 rockets that month, and over 500 the next month.. end of the "lull".

[AntonBatey]

@jameshanley40

Wrong. A grand total of zero rockets were fired by Hamas from June 17th to November 4th, when Israel killed six Hamas "militants". Israel, at the end of the month, told Hamas to "get lost" then they offered to renew the peace treaty in late November. Israel later launched a terrorist war aimed at civilians, killing 926 and totally destroyed the little economy the were allowed to have thanks to the illegal blockade imposed in 2007.

[jameshanley40]

@AntonBatey It was 38 rockets and mortars. You mention Mark Regev to argue that 0 were fired, but he said rockets were fired, according to this NY Times article "Rockets hit Israel, breaking Hamas truce" Within days of the calmer period/"ceasefire" of Thu 19th june to Nov 4th, 3 Qassam rockets were fired! those 3 were fired on Tuesday 24th June 2008. Mark Regev said it was "a grave violation of the calm" . Also, Israel had demanded not one rocket, and no military build-up.

[jameshanley40]

@jameshanley40

also.. they did build up , for them a truce/ceasefire (which wasn't even a ceasefire), means "hang on while I reload my rifle". Here, they upgraded their rockets, to Iranian made Grad missiles. The "Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center " have charts showing the exact number of rockets and mortars fired month by month during the Gaza War. Even today and this month, on the 3rd,9th,12th, and today 14th july 2011, there have been rockets and mortars!

[AntonBatey]

@jameshanley40

James (I'm assuming that's your name - sorry if I'm wrong), do you think I can interview you for a project I have on the ISraeli-Palestinian conflict? I sent you a Private Message.

[jameshanley40]

@AntonBatey

Sorry, I don't do interviews, but thank you for the invitation. I think the to and fro debate here is pretty good, and I think it's good to continue that, if that's ok with you.

[AntonBatey]

@jameshanley40 Okay. Where the heck can I interview defenders of Israel at? I honestly cannot find any who are willing to actually talk.

[jameshanley40]

@AntonBatey

I only know myself, and I don't do interviews.

[AntonBatey]

@jameshanley40

Why?

[jameshanley40]

@AntonBatey

Like many typing on the Internet, I'm not a good talker,  Netanyahu can talk, but I think he's busy.

[prowireless]

@jameshanley40 im sure if you had someone come to your house and take over your home you would do everything possible to get this person out.

The United nations divided whats was called then Palestine in prtsone for the jews and one for the Palestinians but the jews wanted ALL THE LAND and started intigating the Palestinians Today thanks to the USA Israel is a powerful force in the middle east thats why the Jews lick us ass

[TheManolakis]

@jameshanley40 more pro zionist rhetoric from another armchair historian who gets his "facts" from fox news and the HIStory channel. Terrorism is how the State of isreal {53state} was established. Its so obvious the total hypocrisy or utter ignorance of anyone who defends or supports a military occupied apartheid state.Where you only have rights unless your of the"choosen race". james another flouride fed, t.v educated xenophobic douche.

[jameshanley40]

@TheManolakis

Are you against terrorism? Let's talk about -now-. The arabs are racist.. Jews allowed palestinians in israel, they're called israeli arab. Some are even members of parliament and support hezbollah terrorists! In Mecca jews and christians are not allowed. In Jordan, jews are not allowed to be citizens. Arabs are the racists. They want a palestinian state with no jews.. jews in west bank they want removed

[mfdoom3787]

@jameshanley40

even mark regev the israeli war machine apologist said that rocket attacks from Gaza stopped

search it on the internet

[dappercad]

@jameshanley40 I think it's awesome that you can just start with a lie, then for the conclusion that that suits your world view. Lots of people spend their lives attempting to understand the world we live in, this seems so much simpler. Props.

[jameshanley40]

@dappercad

"I think it's awesome that you can just start with a lie" I think it's just awesome how you can call anybody a liar, without demonstrating the lie, without checking any facts. You just say "LIAR" if what they say doesn't support your arabist views.

[dappercad]

@jameshanley40 My sincerest apologies, the source I was using was the guardian newspaper, an article I simply didn't read thoroughly enough before I leapt upon my high horse. Once more, you are not a liar and I apologise. Here are the numbers given by wikipedia for those interested. June : 245 rocket / mortar attacks on Israel, July : 12, Aug : 11, Sept : 4, Oct : 2. Then Israeli forces killed 7 Palestinians. Nov : 193.

[jameshanley40]

@dappercad

good that you apologised and corrected your facts.

[ormond1231]

@earlyAMbirds By definition, controlling a country´s borders and preventing people or goods from entering or exiting that country, is a blockade.

[marcellogentile1]

@ormond1231 no, it's not a simple blockade, it's a concentration camp.

[Bautisnemo]

@earlyAMbirds YES WE SHOULD BOMB ALL THE MIDDLE EAST AND PUT IN SOME CONCENTRATION CAMPS THOSE FUCKING TERRORIST , YEEEAHHHHHHHH NUCLEAR WARFARE.

[BCsJonathanTM]

@earlyAMbirds And who hangs heads from posts if not people intent on terrorizing?

[chinopisces]

@earlyAMbirds: You're an idiot.

[donovanbailey96]

you zionists are going to vanish from the page of time ahahah!!

[YoMuddaIsSoFait]

Err Chomsky find Palestine on a map... then you can call it an occupation. Until then, Israel has a right to defend itself from Iranian funded terror.

[AntonBatey]

What does them "being on a map" have to do with anything? So you're saying that Europeans were right in coming to the Americas, kicking out the natives because they were not on THEIR maps? lol.

Yeah, very logical of you. And Israeli terrorism is muchy more serious than "iran funded" terrorism.

[YoMuddaIsSoFait]

@AntonBatey Please show me Palestine on a map. Put a link up for everyone to see... show us how smart you are. lol.

[AntonBatey]

I think what I'm saying is going over your head. Palestinians were colonized for almost 2,000 years. I'm not sure if you're saying that means the colonized people have no rights. Since Africans didn't place their lands on Europeans maps, are you saying that colonization of Africa was justified?

Israel probably did, knowing the dictatorships they supported in Africa, like Mobutu and the apartheid government. Then again, Israel too practices apartheid.

[YoMuddaIsSoFait]

@AntonBatey Maybe in your wisdom you can point out where I wrote "Palestinians have no rights". Go for it. While you are at it, you can point out Palestine on a map. In both cases, you fail. Because you are looking for something that doesn't exist. IF however you are talking about the "British Mandate of Palestine", then SURELY you must consider Jews as deserving of the same "Palestinian" status? No, of course you don't. It is obviously going over your head Anarchist.

[AntonBatey]

You said that it's not "occupation" is Palestine is not found on a map, which means that since they're not on a map, its okay to forcefully suppress a population, disqualifying their rights. You can say the same thing about any group of people colonized.

Try harder.

[YoMuddaIsSoFait]

@AntonBatey Again, I never said anything about "disqualifying" anyones rights. All things you have made up. Just like you have ignored that Jews were included in the British Mandate of Palestine... because that doesn't suit your Arabic propaganda line.

But I'll assume you know what you are talking about and follow your logic:

Should England be handed back to Norwegian Vikings?

No, of course not.

Try harder.

[AntonBatey]

Of course you said that. You claimed that you cannot call it an "occupation" because you can't find Palestine on a map. That is extremely illogical, by the way. When did I claim that Jews were not included in the British Mandate of Palestine? Oh, that's right........I didn't. Using your faulty of line of reasoning, the Native Americans should be permitted to raze current cities and live on property where I live, for instance.

Try again, kiddo.

[YoMuddaIsSoFait]

@AntonBatey "When did I claim that Jews were not included in the British Mandate of Palestine?" When you exclusively refer to Palestine Arabs as "Palestinians" and not mention Jews. They don't count as "Palestinian" do they?

[YoMuddaIsSoFait]

@AntonBatey The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.

???

[optimistsRUS]

@YoMuddaIsSoFait,

Looks like you are suggesting that Israel is no longer evicting any more Palestinians and that Israel treats all it's non-Jews citizens as equal. I have news for you, there are 4 million non-Jews that are under brutal military rule of Israel (Gaza is besieged by Israeli troops) and within the West Bank there are Jewish-only roads and housing settlements. Desmund Tutu says it's worse than apartheid.

[earlyAMbirds]

@YoMuddaIsSoFait great point. every time someone says "Palestinian" I'll say,well, the word's meaning today must include Jews!

[antonio703]

The commentaries of the Israelis and proisraelies always they refer to the extermination of the Muslims or the islan, whereas the proisraelies do not do any more that to say that the Israeli poor are threatened by the Moslem countries that them want to throw at the sea ¿?? Does someone understand something?

[antonio703]

An israeli who worked at the nuclear israeli, physical takes decades imprisoned and in the most absolute of the omissions, his crime was to say publicly that israel has arms nuclear.All State residents of israel, even not neighbouring as Iran, are threatened by a State terrorism, nuclear, full of fans, fundamentalist and psychopaths. Israel was a historic mistake that has thousands of dead on their backs and many more serious injuries.How many more deaths will result the State of israel?

[antonio703]

Just look youtube channel of the Zionists to see pure hate phrases like "death to the Islan" "Death to the Palestinians" Palestinians who lso Fuck "Fuck the Muslims" Fuck the Islamists "etc. etc. And still have to endure the insult not calling pro-Israel Nazis, fundamentalists etc.

[ValueFreedom]

Simple, to the point, quick, and spot on.... IT'S NOT DEFENCE! No matter which way ya try to spin it... IT'S NOT DEFENCE!

[JRubin86]

i find it sad that such an intellectual ignores the fact the the occupation took place in what the international world recognized as Israel's self defense, which by means under international law justifies ISrael's occupation, i also dont understand how he ignores the fact that a Palestinian state isn't a responsability of ISrael's, and that any concession they make for one is already more then required, i don't see Noam so vocal on other so called rights violations in the world

[AntonBatey]

Their occupation is not legal at all.

[JRubin86]

i suggest u research the difference between a legal occupation and an illegal occupation and explain to me which category it falls under, im sure you;d be surprised in ur search

[AntonBatey]

I have.

[optimistsRUS]

@JRubin86,

Today several million refugees of 1948 Nakba (tragedy) live as refugees around the world, millions live under military occupation in West Bank and Gaza. Israel has killed several teenager protesters recently. Last year Israel bombed civilians of Gaza, killed 1400+. Richard Goldstone is a South African judge, a Jew, a Zionist, he investigated Gaza attack and said that Israel committed war crimes by purposely attacking homes, hospitals, mosques, schools and food depots.

[JRubin86]

@optimistsRUS oh BS, don't feed me that refugee crap, there were 250,000 more jewish refugee's that were forced out of muslim countries, most the arabs that were so called expelled were encouraged to immigrate to Palestine from 1918 and on, there were massive, *illegal*, immigrations going on, why are they in refugee camps? why haven't the arab world taken them? i mean the King of Jordan even took responsibility for the refugee problem in the 1950's, why not now?

[optimistsRUS]

@JRubin86,

You cannot deny facts, read Benny Morrison, Israeli Zionist, he also admits ethnic-cleansing was done, he says that if all Palestinians were cleansed, the Palestinian problem would have been resolved. He says that sometimes ethnic-cleansing is good.

Benny Morris: "There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing."

"when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide - the annihilation of your people - I prefer ethnic cleansing."

[optimistsRUS]

@JRubin86,

Benny Morris: "To my surprise, there were also many cases of rape. In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah [the pre-state defense force that was the precursor of the IDF] were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves. "

[optimistsRUS]

Haaretz: How many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?

Morris: "Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village - she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima, in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved."

[optimistsRUS]

@JRubin86

Benny Morris: "That can't be chance. It's a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres."

[JRubin86]

@AntonBatey Wasn't the occupation imposed on them(Israel)? correct me if i'm wrong but there wasn't ever a Palestinian State to occupy, for 20 years before 1967 the West Bank was under Jordan's rule, and Gaza belonged to Egypt. after 1967 Israel offered the Gaza strip back to Egypt, and offered the West Bank back to Jordan, they refused. so explain to me how this is an illegal occupation, if the land was offered back and refused? what choice did Israel have other then to occupy?

[rencrow]

I like how delusional the arguments that zionists produce in order to defend apartheid, genocide and illegal occupation pursued proudly by israel.

[JRubin86]

funny how some one brings delusional arguments and yet ignores certain facts for instance Palestinians aren't Israeli's they have there own self autonomous state, u have to be pretty dumb to think Israel is trying to eradicate 4 million+ by killing a couple of hundred a year, and the occupation has already been agree'd to end as soon as a solution between them is reached, the question of the occupation isn't if its going to end, but when.

[rencrow]

They don't have an autonomous state. Gaza is being blockaded and the West bank is being illegally colonized. Those are not the characteristics of "an autonomous state". The occupation will only end when israel retreats back to its original borders and has its leaders tried for war crimes and crimes against against humanity in The Hague.

[optimistsRUS]

@JRubin86,

"Palestinians aren't Israeli's they have there own self autonomous state"

Israel is 78% of the historic Palestine, more than half million Palestinians were kicked out in 1948, the rest who live in Israel don't have the same rights as Jews. Israel continues to occupy and besiege the other 22%; West Bank and Gaza, and builds Jewish-only settlements, roads and water dams in occupied West Bank and continues to demolish natives' homes for foreign Jewish settlers.

[rencrow]

Only a zionist would equate occupation, genocide, and ethnic cleansing with self defense in order to escape accusations of wrong-doing.

[antonio703]

@rencrow tienes toda la razón, un saludo

[antonio703]

@JRubin86 The sad thing is disqualify anyone denouncing the bestialidades who, with absolute impunity, commits, more than 60 years a State created fruit of the victimismo, the subrrealismo, influences, money etc. Also it is a shame that those who defends a terrorist State are always putting it model, model of what? There is no State with a greater number of convictions of the UN and follow year after years acted as if the world at his feet.

[optimistsRUS]

@JRubin86,

What nonsense! Jewish terrorists occupied Palestine in 1947 and declared independence. Jews were less than 33% in population and they wanted 50% of land, they fought and occupied 78% of land and called it Israel. In 1967 Israel occupied the other 22% of the land and maintains a brutal military rule, women are not allowed to go to hospital and are forced to give birth at checkpoints, kids are harassed and even shot to death. All this is with US tax Dollars, $3 billion every year

[astronomer86]

@JRubin86

In "Defence" my friend, you 'defend' yourself. When you move a step forward and occupy lands, then you are on offence.

[antonio703]

@JRubin86 The only(unique) country of the world that commits crimes for 60 years in the most absolute impunity is Israel, the only(unique) country of the world that presumes to be a democracy without it being, of being even top morally demonstrating everything opposite .. and a list largísima of immoralities, he is israel. Other countries that commit crimes are condemned, commercial boycott is done to them etc. Israel is only(unique) and not for being exemplary precisely

[JRubin86]

@antonio703 this shows you have a very vague concept of the world we live in

[Sundrumify]

It does not help, at all, to come out with these academic definitions. Obviously, the world suffers from people, who define history by their own means. Wiki helps out to understand the roots of what we are facing in the Middle East, on both sides. There are hidden agendas, which the ordinary people, on both sides, have to suffer from. Marchiavelli is a good teacher, to understand these dynamics of power, manipulation, and control.

Our young people are my hope, for a new start.

Lisa from Munich

[magiktwo]

The Palestinians have never resisted the occupation of Gaza and the Westbank by Egypt and Jordan. Only when Jews started to live in these areas, the palestinian terror began. I wonder why ...

Furthermore: Israel has withdrawn from Gaza. The terror continues ... Which only shows that Palestinians are not fighting against an occupation but for the annihilation of the Jews (and they don't deny it, as one can easily see by for example looking up the charta of the Hamas, chapter 7).

[bpatrice49]

If mexicans started throwing rockets into america tomorow, carrying out terrorist attacks in the name of a land dispute, no one would question America's unconditional response. Yet Surely it's wrong because America stole half of mexico. Yes Israels self defence claim in the occupied territories is not logically viable and sometimes it is a downright lie when they want to be an aggressor. However every nation state on earth was built on territorial expansion and violence.

[Alfanyboy]

You Can NOT compare Mexico with Palestinian territory, for many reasons.

For one, Israel is actively using agression and modern weaponry to strangle and demoralise Palestinians. Also Israel cuts off water supplies, electricity, gas, food infrastructure etc. Basically essential and basic human needs are systematically blocked.

This is all part of the Israeli long term strategy to suffocate all non-Israeli's and ultimatley claim all Palestinian territories.

[DarthKazi]

Does that make it OK?

[aewester]

It doesn't make it ok, but it makes it PERFECTLY understandable.

[Dalambam]

Here's a more accurate analogy: if Mexico was occupying and colonizing America tomorrow, started expropriating American land and demolishing American homes for colonial expansion and the building of apartheid infrastructure, while maintaining a brutal miltary rule in the occupied American territories, adopting horrorful 'starve to death' policies towards the civilian population of the American regions that resist the occupation (...)

[Dalambam]

and showering hundreds of thousands of tons of sophisticated ammunition on Americans, what would America's likely reaction would be? America would probably have gone on nuclear war against Mexico, and no one would question America's unconditional response. The Palestinian response is just unbelievably moderate- all they do is shooting fireworks into the desert to protest.

[IIoveTelAviv]

We left Gaza in 2005!

Noam Chomsky you are worng again.

[AntonBatey]

Read the comments here. We already refuted that bullshit.

Thanks.

[JRubin86]

@AntonBatey no you haven't, you just proved you have no understanding of the world and how it works, the siege didn't happen when Israel left, but when Hamas took over.

[rptatbud]

Thank you Noam Chomsky for all your contributions to computer science.  For that I sincerely admire you. In politics however, you are a delusional lunatic whose ideas do nothing more but inspire unfounded prejudice against the state of Israel.

[LitanyCrash]

That's right Chomsky, that's right - god, how I wish you were on TV now talking about this as much as humanly possible. People need to listen to the truth, and not get caught up in all the pro-Israeli propaganda that states, wrongly, that Hamas are the instigators.

[anoniab]

Israel has been out of the Gaza strip for some time. During the "ceasefire" they had over 6,000 rockets lobbed at them from the Gaza strip. It was high time they struck back.

[AntonBatey]

They withdrew from Gaza while expanding in the West Bank and other prime Palestinian cities. The plan back in 2005 was to withdraw from the West Bank while permanently taking over other Palestinian towns. Also, there is no comparison to how many innocent civilians Israel killed when compared to the Palestinians, also how much tonnage of bombs hit which side. Because of course, fighting Israel is fighting the United States.

[piedlin10]

Anonliab's numbers are also off. During the truce with Hamas there were and handful of rockets and mortars fired across the border, however they were fired not by Hamas but groups like Islamic Jihad, al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. Hamas observed the ceasefire until November 6 when in fired 30 rockets in retaliation to an Israeli air strike on Nov.4. This was reported in all the major papers and these rockets were described as retaliation by both Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post to name a few.

[anoniab]

The West Bank is on the other side of Israel and does not explain why after Israel withdrew, Hamas kept lobbing rockets at the Israelis. To my knowledge, they did not "expand" in the West Bank; there was talk of turning over half of Jerusalem. The Israelis have done nothing but surrender land and for doing so, they get terrorists importing weapons, lobbing rockets at them, and suicide bombs. The Arabs have 14 countries and they don't want Israel to have one.

[trycoun]

they build new settlements everyday, still drive people from their land, burn down olive-groves,

cut water/electric supplies (wich they both control) to palestinans down to one hour a day.

regarding the "withdrawal" 2006: from that day gaza was SEALED, bombed, and the food/medicine import blocked down to 20% of the nessecary.

according to UNHCR the average nutrition / health level is among the worlds lowest.

so, looking at it, i'm stunned how peaceful these people bare this, for 60 years.

[anoniab]

trycoun, perhaps you would like to explain why, after the Israelis were forcibly evicted from their beautiful homes in Gaza, the Palestinians razed them rather than making use of them?

[trycoun]

oh, changing the subject all the sudden.

anoniab is a fake account for propaganda,

but since there's a human behind it:

1)take some time to realize what israelis are doing to them since sixty years, and worsening it each day. ethnic cleansing, ghetto policy, bulldozing their homes, etc.

2)imagine that being done to you. then you'll might understand why, a little bit better.

3)the easiest way: ask them. go there, live in gaza for a few months, with a family, under their conditions.

[JRubin86]

@trycoun the occupation is only 43 years old, how did u get 60? and Hamas and Israel are in a state of war, Israel is following international law in what it allows into and out of a warring state, the difference is Hamas tomorrow can make peace, Israel cant, so whose to blame? what more do the Palestinians in Gaza want? what r they sacrificing for? there lives are far worse then the lives of Palestinians in the WB, what is the purpose of this war they you guys are dragging out?

[jameshanley40]

@trycoun

A)"Palestinian" Arabs have a pretty good life expectancy, maybe better than any other arabs, next to the ones in Israel within the 1967 boundary, that are Israeli Citizens.

B)The Arabs still went to war in '48 and amassed soldiers on Israel's border in 1967 for war, when they had the Gaza strip and the West Bank. Their goal then like now, is to remove Israel. Abbas said to the Arab League "“If you want war, and if all of you will fight Israel, we are in favor.”"

[jameshanley40]

@trycoun

Abbas has made similar remarks like ""I have said more than once that if the Arabs want war - we are with them."" palwatch have caught him saying this 3 times in successive months. But this should be the presumption anyway after they've gone to war so many times and failed. And from what I gather, Islam teaches that when they have the power, when they can win, they should wage Jihad.

[zzzxcvvv]

Maps over the years show the west bank of today to me minuscule to what it once was. One must be an insane maniac to call taking 90+% of the land 'surrendering'. Israel is the overwhelming aggressor and it shows. Foolish people like you think you can get away with naming war crimes as acts of defence. You won't, in every way.

[lecasteloes]

YES!!!

[lecasteloes]

you're brainwashed, dude!

[nicetidings]

"Israel" self-defence sounds as an excellent oxymoron. saying that Israel should defend itself is indeed preposterous. It's like saying that a thief who has broken into a house has the right to defend himself against the house owner

[JRubin86]

this would make someone sense before the internationally recognize state of Israel was established, whether u agree with it or, the land after that belonged to Israeli government, in which they did have the right to defend themselves, besides the land prior to that was controlled by UK, and before that the Ottoman Empire, never did it belong to the Arab farmers who lived there

[JRubin86]

@nicetidings horrible comparison, and show's you have very little understanding of the history of the land, look at every historical account of the land up to 1918, and you'll see mention of Jews, christains, and very few muslims, after 1918 look at the historical account and you'll see reports of massive, *illegal* immigration of arabs to Palestine,

[YoMuddaIsSoFait]

@nicetidings Find Palestine on a map.

[AntonBatey]

It's always been colonized, so you cannot. Saying that colonized people don't have rights is disgusting. It's the same thing Europeans said when they butchered Africans, Asians and Native Americans.

[000000AEA000000]

@nicetidings exactly. What I find remarkable though, is that out of all but the zionists chose a name so related from the german term "Wehrmacht" for their army. Wehrmacht means "defence-force", and how is the israeli army called again?

[Marly61]

anoniab, I am proud that Hamas has the dignity to attack the immoral Israel, with a nuclear bomb someday i pray, to force Israel into allowing the Palestinians to share the same standards of living as average Israelis. Until palestinians have the same standards of living and quality of life has the Israelis the rockets should continue and will get bigger over time. The price will be enormous however the palestinians made a grave mistake by allowing Israel Nationalism to steal there land.

[RPFS2008]

If the "islamic world" nuked Israel, Israel would wipe out the entire Palestinian population within a week. Not to mention WW3 would kick off.

Be careful what you wish for.

[Marly61]

RPF, it doesn't matter if Palestine is wipe out after Isreal. Rise above your limited materialism.

[RPFS2008]

I'm sorry, you're going to have to qualify your statement.

You pray nuclear destruction and then tell me I am limited? I would not say that having respect for life is being materialistic at all.

Is your hatred for Israel more important to you then the well-being of the Palestinians?

[Marly61]

rpf, sure, here is my qualification: choosing death now in proper proportion to its future life savings can result in a net gain of life saved over time. Gaining land and power in such an evil way as Israel and the US has, being very similar to Hilter's methods, will result in future living dead Israelis souls based on a limited materialistic perspective towards exitence. I actually love the social justice aspects of Judaism, to bad the State of Israel has never incorporated Judaism.

[RPFS2008]

So you pray for the mass killings of people, with nuclear weapons no less, in the hope it will lead to less death?

That is as illogical as it in immoral. Worldwide Nuclear war(WW3) would break out if anyone , especially in the middle east - due to its importance in economic matters worldwide aswell as other reasons, nuked another area.

You bring up Hitler, but your idea of a pre-emptive deathtoll is very Hitler-esque.

[RPFS2008]

As for respect for life being materialistic, well I guess you are qualifying that through religious beliefs - the afterlife and whatnot, but i wont be drawn into such speculation because, well, I am not getting into religious discussion here, let alone take the idea seriously that religious beliefs in some way legitimize mass killings ,as you seem to believe.

[RPFS2008]

I'd also like to point out that I am in no way against the Palestinian people. I think the terrorism undertaken by the Israeli government is, in most cases, atrocious. I do not condone, however, the violence used by Hamas either - even tho it is on a much smaller scale than the Israeli government's.

[RPFS2008]

I am in agreement with Chomsky, for the most part, in regards to this conflict. I am aware of the bad things the governments of Israel have done. This does not mean, however, that I have to agree with your idea of nuking innocent Israeli's. I'd be the same if you talked about nuking Palestine.

[Marly61]

RPF,I understan your problem with "nuking innocent Israelis." However, I don't see them as innocent. They are paying taxes to a tyrannical regime, that is the funding the continuance of the actrocities. I left the US for a lesser evil country because i can not support the immoral actions of the US through my taxes.

[Marly61]

RPF, believe me if you know of a peaceful solution to returning of Palestine back to the indegious people please submit it. Sorry, though, i don' accept the illegitimate existence of Israel.

[inbrooklyn2008]

The peaceful solution is reurning Israel back to its 1967 borders, as the UN demands, ending the brutalities against Gaza and the West Bank. East Jerusalem, including control over the Muslim holy sites, should be given to a Palestinian government, also as specified by the UN. This is the solution agreed to in the Oslo Accords by both the Israelis and the Palestinians (signed by Arafat) and supported by the majority of Palestinians also. I think this is the best option for minimal loss of life.

[inbrooklyn2008]

(It didn't work out in 1993 because at Oslo the Israelis still insisted on keeping a small but important piece -- key roads, etc. -- of the land in the West Bank, but it is, in principle, if arbitrated fairly, a solution that would receive decent support on both sides. Israel has hitherto insisted, being in a position of power, that all the compromises on disputed portions of the agreement come from the Palestinians.)

[Marly61]

2008, i understand the Oslo option however doesn't that reward Israel for stealing land and murderous activity?

[inbrooklyn2008]

The Oslo option would indeed let Israel keep land that was taken from the British Mandate in 1948 (and the territories acquired in the civil war in Palestine), but it's the only realistic option in my opinion. A one-state solution wouldn't work, since the Palestinian majority that would emerge from such a solution would insist on reclaiming the homes and territories now owned by Jews, and forcing out Jews who've been living in Israel their whole lives would be akin to the expulsion of the Arabs.

[inbrooklyn2008]

Hence, I think that both sides must agree to live together with a two-state solution, sharing the land to avoid a further round of the interminable cycles of the bloodlust and brutality we have seen far too much of. (Israel must first end the occupation of the 1967 territories and in those places end its apartheid policies and occupying-power tactics of systematic brutality towards the Gaza Strip and the West Bank Palestinian Arabs.)

[Marly61]

inbrook, you did see how immoral that is don't you. Immoral in the sense that it is ok for the israelis to take the land from the palestinians but not ok for the palstinians to take their own land back. So to you "realistic" is theft of land by Israelis. If it was their land and they were the majority and that land was in most cases stolen then the land was never Israeli.

[inbrooklyn2008]

Marly, of course taking the land forcibly in the first place was immoral. But what's the solution now, aside from sharing the land? The argument that the Jews own the land because they were there 2000 years ago is bogus. But to turn around and say that Palestinians can now dispossess the Jews living in Israel for their whole lives bc Palestinians had that land before, would be the same wrong. So there needs to be a compromise - the best deal would be a 2-state solution for peaceful coexistence.

[Marly61]

inbrook, If the Jews stole the land the right thing is to disposses them of rights to it unless they owned it while under Palestine. WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR AMERICANS TO THINK IN MORAL TERMS? The jews have the right to live there not control it through ethinic cleansing. In other words implement democracy which powerful people are always against. The only way to set it right will probably be through massive bloodshed, of course this is not my decision but the Palenstinians.

[inbrooklyn2008]

Well, the ones who confiscated most of it 1948 aren't live now, and their descendants have been occupying it for some generations. If it's they you suggest dispossessing, wouldn't you on, the same basis, find an analogous reason to have to accept the ridiculous argument that the land belongs to the Jews, since 2000 years ago they were there as well, before having THEIR land stolen? That's the problem with the anti-2 state solution argument.

[Marly61]

Brook,appreciate your thoughts I don't accept them. The land was NEVER theirs to posses. They possesed it illegally. Don't take this analogy personally however if I broke into your grandparent's house,stole their resources and land,killed your descending family members than bequeathed all of your grandparent's wealth to my children birthed of my class and religion you would accept living below a subsitance level while the rest of your family and neighbors were having the same thing happen?

[Marly61]

Brook, sorry I didn't have room for the question: "Would you accept that?" in the shoes of the rigthfull landowner?

[Marly61]

RPF, it is irrational not illogical, however it is pratical and the lesser of the evils to combat the highest evil, Israel, with its own method's to punish and send a message to futur imperialists that a high price will be paid for such immoral actions. I only wish the Native American Indians would have access to such powerfull and horrendous technology. Whether or not WW3 breaks out has to considered the fault of Israel's supreme aggressive. THis concept was clearly described at Nuremburg.

[Marly61]

In Gaza, the enforced starvation and denial of humanitarian aid, the piracy of life-giving resources such as fuel and water, the denial of medicines, the systematic destruction of infrastructure and killing and maiming of the civilian population, 50 per cent of whom are children, fall within the international standard of the Genocide Convention.

[Marly61]

RPF, Your comments here lack understaning. Please look up the UN definition of "pre-emptive." You will find a pre-emptive action against Israel is justified as the UN's criteria have been met.

[Marly61]

RPF, Palestine's right to exist was cancelled 61 years ago and that the expulsion and extinction of the indigenous people was planned and executed by the founders of Israel. They know, for example, that the infamous "Plan D" of 1947-48 resulted in the murderous depopulation of 369 Palestinian towns and villages by the Haganah are referred to in official records as "ethnic cleansing".

[Marly61]

RPF, The order to expel an entire population "without attention to age" was signed by Yitzhak Rabin. The terrible irony of this, such as when the Mapam party co-leader Meir Ya'ari noted "how easily" Israel's leaders spoke of how it was "possible and permissible to take women, children and old men and to fill the road with them because such is the imperative of strategy. And this we say . . . who remember who used this means against our people during the [Second World] War . . . I am appalled"

[Irtidad]

Israel still maintains control of Gaza's borders, airspace, and access to sea. In international law this is called "sovereignty" and this means that the military occupation of Gaza continues, even if the settlements and permanent troops are gone.

[AntonBatey]

Well said, Irtidad.

[freedomintheus]

I call it MASS MURDER.

[camb702]

Interesting character is Chomsky. His analysis is spot on in this instance.

[coffeeintheface]

Chomsky's always there to cut through the bullshit about Mideast crises. For that, he should get a fucking medal.