Hayek vs Keynes Rap Producers on Freedom Watch 12/21/10

[aviomaster]

USA financial system  without DEBT is Mission impossible. STOP borrowing now and whole system collapses.

[00maharum00ma]

@islandmuffin

You didn't say per capita. You said richest country, by which I assume you meant biggest GDP, which is Brazil.

[00maharum00ma]

@islandmuffin

Brazil is the richest country in South America.

[djcatron11]

Keynes was a fraud. He died broke and economists at the time proved his theories don't work. You can't be bias if the side you support works and the other doesn't.

[mesastilettodeuce]

"soviet style central planning".... ugh the Fox Propaganda machine strikes again... whether or not you agree with keynes's theories, you have to admit this guy is a bullshit artist. though i did love the keynes vs. hayek rap battle

[sfjeff1089]

@tifforo1 - Excellent point. And do you really think that it is fair to portray Keynes as drinking at the bar all night? Can't be any bias in that, can there?

@dnlbrm - You may not have heard of him, but unfortunately Reagan did. Reagan, Bush 1, and Bush 2 collectively gave us near 0 Per Capita GDP growth over 22 years following his principles.

[nhwapshott]

My Keynes Hayek: The Clash That Defined Modern Economics is published in October by W.W.Norton. See website: sites.google.com/site/wapshott­keyneshayek/

Nicholas Wapshott

[tifforo1]

@islandmuffin

Show me the research!

Show me the quantitative data supporting Hayek!

[tifforo1]

Maybe I'm imagining it, but I can almost see the rap video creators' inner conflict between letting the host agree with them and pointing out the inaccuracy and irony of the host saying both sides should be portrayed fairly while comparing Keynesianism to the Soviet Union. It's like, "should we let this guy praise us at the cost of letting him twist what we say to suit his propoganda?"

[Browncoat1157]

@tifforo1 Totally agree man. He must be like "should I sell my soul for hits?" haha. Friggin Fox

[tifforo1]

Keynes was actually a stern critic of Marxism and of Lenin.

[dnlbrm]

Who is this Hayek guy? Never heard of him.

[SuperSpidey25]

IF you are for Hayek and Austrian economics, then you should read Simple Wealth by Andrew Costello. It's on Amazon, and will change the way you view the world.

[antek250000]

Keynes is silly sucker

[alexamasan]

"The biggest fight today in economics is based on the theories of two long dead economists..."

I just thought this was the most hilarious statement to start out with

[pennjersey83]

Facepalm

[ngarrido1]

ludwig van meises anyone?

[ill318]

“Once you admit that the individual is merely a means to serve the ends of a higher entity called society or the nation, most of those features of totalitarian regimes which horrify us follow of necessity. From the collectivist standpoint, intolerance and brutal suppression of dissent, the complete disregard of the life and happiness of the individual, are essential and unavoidable consequences of this basic premise;

Austrian Economist- Friedrich A. Hayek (1899-1992)

[tifforo1]

@ill318

Those actually aren't unavoidable consequences; they would only follow if brutal suppression of dissent was beneficial to society. Of course, the problem is usually that the people deciding what's best for society are biased and self-serving, which is what democracy is for (so that you have lots of different competing biases rather than one controlling one).

[VisionsOfTheNobody]

@islandmuffin Chile: richest, yes. freest, no. If you study the 1980 Chilean constitution (still in place) you'd notice some things that poses as anti-democratic when you compare to many other democracies in the world and it also takes repression of contrary ideas to the now system (which is why political parties in order to be in power form coalitions, in which ends up crushing political movements take are not in a coalition, of these are always crushed independent pro-change politics.)

[a4finger]

oh cool, gotta watch that video

[VisionsOfTheNobody]

@islandmuffin And you tell me that to make me feel better of my country or just point out every other country in South America has it's economy much worse than here in Chile? Either way, it worked...

[WilliamHollender]

@islandmuffin How is Venezuela evidence against Keynesianism? Hugo Chavez is a quasi-Marxist; Marxian economics is not related to Keynesian economics and stands in stark opposition to it.

[VisionsOfTheNobody]

@islandmuffin Those countries, yeah, but Chile... Well, no. I live in Chile and I tell you: the entire economy here is pretty much screwed up. People hear good things about this country, but they have NO IDEA how bad things really are! But the economy is good, when you compare that to crime rates, housing, unemployment, and a pretty much corrupt political system (every politic here seems to be of the same ideology) and it is all thanks to what many neoconservatives consider as "good": Pinochet.

[VisionsOfTheNobody]

Rap economics = new way of explaining the market theories. Thumbs up for fre market!

[VisionsOfTheNobody]

@VisionsOfTheNobody Sorry if I spelled "free" with only one E... My keyboard sucks when it comes with double E.

[tiagovq]

@islandmuffin But I will give you a lot of examples of gorvernment intervention in the markets that led to prosperity: US from 1930 to Bush era, UK since WWII until Bush era, Norway, Sweeden and Denmark since the Cold War until NOW, Netherlands till now... the list is enormous.. add Brazil to that, the first country to leave the crisis through a huge stimulus package put in place by the government. Now, show me ONE single country that applies Hayek's principle. Please, no fiscal paradises.

[tiagovq]

@islandmuffin What?!?! Sometimes I think you live in another world. Listen, 99% of all research done in economics prove that unregulated markets lead to crisis. The problem here, is that this TV show puts on the same level theories that are not. He starts with "biggest fight" between Hayek and Keynes. There is no such fight. There is no evidence supporting Hayek. NONE! Nor pratical application, not a single coutry. This rap was only made cause the guys believes in Hayek.

[OpenYourMindQuaid]

@tiagovq

What unregulated markets? With the Federal Reserve controlling the money supply in a corrupt fractional reserve banking system, 1/2 of every single transaction cannot actually be classified as "unregulated." On top of that, unregulated markets with regard to goods and services have not existed for decades, but what has happened during that time are some of the worst recessions in history.

Your points do not stand up to scrutiny. They just don't. Accept the failure of your dogma.

[tiagovq]

@islandmuffin You got this all wrong, all the research is based on Keynes. 99% of the economics books are Keynesians. I bet you havent read any. I bet you watched the Judge talking about economics and now you feel like you know it... ahahaha.. There is NO COUNTRY on the ENTIRE world which applies what Hayek suggested. NO ONE!

[tiagovq]

@islandmuffin Ahaha... One article every year... against ALL the other articles..ahahah.. Hayek is a joke.

[WilliamHollender]

@islandmuffin This is moronic. For one, your Austrian economics categorically rejects empirical research and quantitative analysis so you're a hypocrite, and for two, as I've said before, 9 out of 10 economists or so are Keynesian, and since a large part of an academic economist's job is research, there clearly is pro-Keynesian research out there.

[WilliamHollender]

@islandmuffin This is moronic. For one, your Austrian economics categorically rejects empirical research and quantitative analysis so you're a hypocrite, and for two, as I've said before, 9 out of 10 economists or so are Keynesian, and since a large part of an academic economist's job is research, there clearly is pro-Keynesian research out there.

[WilliamHollender]

@islandmuffin If the statement that most economists are Keynesian is controversial to you, then you're a lost cause to begin with.

[VisionsOfTheNobody]

Who was the only moron who gave a thumbs down to this video?

[onepiecefan74]

"Indeed the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist" -Keynes

Ironic that his own words now apply so well to his own economic theory.

[tiagovq]

@islandmuffin You see, when you come here and call the people disagreeing with you CRAZY thats when you show everyone you lost the argument. Plus, you continue with losts of untrue statements. Listen, everthing the US is today and all the prosperity it had until Bush was due to the huge participation of the government in the economy and its partnership with the private sector. There is a reason why 99 out of a 100 economist and Keynesians: because it has been proven right.

[tiagovq]

@tiagovq There is a reason why 99 out of a 100 economist ARE* Keynesians: because it has been proven right.

[3rdEchel0n]

@tiagovq But what standard? How on earth with 10% (or 20% if you look at free-market estimates) unemployment can you stay that stimulus and bailouts have worked? And now when Bernanke injects another 600 billion and rates go up. The only people not suffering are the ones who are getting this money upfront and not affected by the inflation.

[tiagovq]

@3rdEchel0n You see, you are doing just like the Judge and mixing up two very different things. One thing is goverment intervention in the economy by increasing/decreasing expenses or reducing/increasing taxes, which has been proven right. Another thing completely different is the FED printing money out of thin air. Adopting gold standard does not mean no interference from the goverment in the economy.

[veradinx]

@tiagovq - NO. The reason Keynesian 'economics' is used is because it's like a drug, where government can just print and print all the money they like under this false assumption that mass consumption can provide and sustain prosperity; meanwhile, in the REAL WORLD, economies are failing as a DIRECT RESULT of this system. You should actually read some books on economics and the Business Cycle before telling other people to do research because, frankly, your statements reveal your ignorance.

[OpenYourMindQuaid]

@tiagovq

Nazis would have said that about good Germans. You aren't making good points. Try as you may to blame all of our economic woes on the rich not being taxed enough, but you're missing the bigger picture because your dogma has thoroughly clouded your judgment. That's all, man.

[tiagovq]

@islandmuffin It is not true at all. You know almost nothing on economics. You see, the World Economic Forum has an agenda. It will state whatever they want. It is the numbers that are important. Look, Lula, the current President of Brazil, increase the share of the government in many companies including the oil one, CONTROLLED by the gov, created lots of new public corporations, intervened in the markets and the country is growing, inequality decreasing and people happier. Do some research.

[WilliamHollender]

@islandmuffin It takes an understanding of economics that rejects math and econometrics to come up with the Austrian laissez-faire approach.

[WilliamHollender]

@islandmuffin I suppose the vast majority of mainstream economists constitutes "no research".

[GompCelticPL]

Hayek FTW 

[yakyakyak69]

Learn WHY monopolistic Central Banking & Fiat (counterfeit) debt-Currency and Fractional Reserve Lending are so VERY BAD for liberty and prosperity...

Watch: "Money as Debt" here on YouTube

Those who defend the Fed are Corrupt Domestic Terrorists and Enemies of We, the FREE People.

[SoYouThinkYouCanInve]

Read my below quote. Keynes is loved by modern statists because he laid out the game plan for central planning that hid behind the artifices of maintaining free markets. It was superior to outright socialism and communism because it fooled people into thinking that they were free. It's right there in his own words laid out nearly 75 years ago.

[SoYouThinkYouCanInve]

"It is not the ownership of the instruments of production which it is

important for the State to assume. If the State is able to determine

the aggregate amount of resources devoted to augmenting the

instruments and the basic rate of reward to those who own them, it

will have accomplished all that is necessary. Moreover, the necessary measures of socialisation can be introduced gradually and

without a break in the general traditions of society." - Keynes, 1936

[adamhaye]

sounds like tiagovq is very misinformed and confused.

[tiagovq]

@adamhaye sounds like you are crazy and loony... you see? I can come here and say anything about you, the difficult part is arguing and trying to prove an argument.

[carcabe]

All government interference in the economy is an attempt to controvert reality. It is a childish game of lets pretend. Let’s give people money and let’s pretend they are prosperous. Let’s tamper with the free market mortgage process and pretend that everybody has earned a house. From corporate bailouts to minimum wage laws, it’s all a game of pretend. It’s all a vain attempt to cheat reality and always fails because reality cannot be cheated.

[tiagovq]

@islandmuffin It is you who feel instead of think. You are misinformed. Very misinformed. The richest country in Latin America is Brazil, which has grown the size of its goverment and managed to have record GDP growth and is now on almost full-employment. According to projections Brazilian GDP per capita will pass Chile's in less than 10 years. Explain that! Think!

By the way, Bolivia since Evo took over is way better that it was before, the same with Venezuela. Look at UN Gini index.

[tiagovq]

@islandmuffin What? You know very little about economics. First, the richest country in LA is Brazil (huge government). Secondly, Chile has a government which inetervenes a lot in the economy. Goverment is big in Chile. And regarding Cayman, Hong Kong and Switzerland, they are not rich cause they freed their economies, you should know that. The only reason they are rich is because they are a safe place for dirty money from all the mafias in the world. Then its easy to be rich.

[numba1stunna4269]

Cool!

[GlockNinja]

What do businesses do when supply and demand of product and services no longer sell / work? Smoke and mirrors, bate and switch, subliminal advertising, abusive and exploited labor practices. To me business is no different than government. Both dictate to society how to live our lives. There has to be a fine balance of both for man to live as a society.

[bowtie728]

hyack.... not as brilliant as rothbard and Mises

[tiagovq]

The RAP is very good.

But clearly, history proves Keynes is right. By the way, Hayek is not even half the economist Keynes was, you know why? Cause his theories don't work in practice.

If you want to see what is like living in a country with very litle government, go to Central America. Some of the countries there don't even have their own currency. What happens there is great unequality and generalized poverty.

Big government and high taxes on the rich are crucial for a stable society.

[BennyQuixote]

@tiagovq Oh, you mean like Venezuela, the Communist country ruled by Hugo Chavez? Yeah. I think you might have forgotten about that one.

[tiagovq]

@BennyQuixote Wow... thats an absurd comment in so many different ways. First, Venezuela is not a Communist country. Secondly, I was not talking about Venezuela, because it has its own currency, it has not low tax rates, nor is in CENTRAL AMERICA. Venezuela is in South America. Have you failed geography in school?

[BennyQuixote]

@tiagovq As for the Central American comment, that was an honest misreading on my part. I thought you said South American in your original post. Additionally, my point was that many places in South (and Central) America are not good places to live, and my implication was that the socialized forms of government were largely responsible for that. You may disagree, but that's an entirely separate conversation.

[tiagovq]

@BennyQuixote Of course NOT! You are misinformed again. There were no socialized forms of goverment in South America before the 90s. Its a fact. As I told you, in Central America goverments are very small, really small, almost no taxes on anyone, no Central Banks and in some cases not even their own currency. Nevertheless, what happens there is a society with a huge divide. You can already see what Bush tax cuts are causing to the economy, and its gonna get worse.

[tiagovq]

@BennyQuixote Anyhow, you see how bad it is when you have someone in TV that doesnt know what they are taking about, like the Judge in economics? He insinuated that Keynes was responsible for central planning and the Soviet economy, when Keynes is very capitalist. By the way, the theories Keynes devised have been put in practice in the US since the 30 and are largely responsible for the prosperity and wealthy. Also, Keynes has nothing to do with the FED...

[chuska8383]

@tiagovq I disagree. Keynes has ties to the Fabian society and socialism. His central tenant in economic theory is markets, left to their own devices, are unstable. Such a distrust and disdain for unfettered market activity is a Rubicon to free market capitalists. Keynes supports central planning and authoritarianism and his ideas are blatantly fascist. He advocates the merger of the state with corporate power to boost aggregate demand and dismisses long term maladies with flippant arrogance.

[tiagovq]

@chuska8383 Well, you are wrong. Keynes believed goverment should intervene in the market, this has nothing to do with fascism and authoritarism. Again, have you ever been to Norway, Sweeden or Denmark? Their governments intervene in the economy to make it better for everyone. And thats not mean that they dont have freedom, on the other hand, they are on average more happy.

[BennyQuixote]

@tiagovq By capitalism, the Judge means free market capitalism, in which the means of production and investment planning are privately owned. Keynes advocated for central government banking, which is a fundamental requirement of most forms of socialist theory. To say Keynes was a capitalist is, at best, inaccurate, unless one uses the term "capitalism" to mean "government run capitalism" which, if not a contradiction in terms, is definitely not what Napolitano means at all.

[WilliamHollender]

@BennyQuixote

You can define capitalism like that if you want to ignore the fact that government has always been involved in the economy under what most people would term capitalism; you can also define capitalism like that if you want to claim that capitalism has never existed. Regardless, libertarian laissez-faire is not the historical definition of capitalism. Keynes was not a socialist in the sense of Marxist; Keynesian stimulus is meant to save capitalism, not destroy it.

[tiagovq]

@BennyQuixote The Judge knows very little of economics, he has just shown that. You see, you have a lot of misconceptions. You dont even know what socialist and capitalist mean. You have to start with the very basics, you are mixing up everything, just like the Judge did.

[chuska8383]

@BennyQuixote Glad to see someone gets it. That is precisely what I was trying to explain to tiagovq as well. It is very difficult for American liberals and Europeans to understand that the economic theories that they follow are, in fact, fascism because the government controls corporations and thus picks winners and losers in the markets and indirectly dictates how resources are to be allocated. It is tragic that such ideas destroyed them in the 20th century yet they still cling to them.

[WilliamHollender]

@chuska8383 Corporatism in the fascist sense does not refer to corporations; it refers to seeing society as a corporate whole (corporate meaning bodily).

[asperin]

@tiagovq

Big govt and high taxes make a stable society? "Stable" as in stagnant and controlled? You got it! That's the US.

What about a FREE society? Why not have that with something more inclusive like Voluntarism taking place? That regulates better than ballot-box democracy.

[tiagovq]

@asperin No. Countries with big government can be free societies. By the way, these are the TOP5 happiest countries on Earth - Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweeden and Netherlands. All of them have big governments, high taxes on the rich, FREEDOM and loads of happiness!

Small government might sound good in the short term, but in the long run it produces a very few super rich and a huge majority extremely poor, and thats when it gets unstable and violent. Again, look to Central America.

[AshillaBeige]

@tiagovq Yeah, and the drunk guy who sits in my apartment's underground parking is pretty happy too. So what? Correlation is not causation r-tard.

[OpenYourMindQuaid]

@tiagovq

What do we have in the US? The largest income and wealth gap of any nation in the developed world. You think this is due to income taxes being too low, while ignoring the obvious role that the Fed and our financial system play in creating this dynamic. You can't ignore this and blame it solely on taxes. It is intellectually irresponsible, and I think downright lazy.

[tiagovq]

@OpenYourMind Of course it is. Look at the numbers! After Bush's tax cuts, inequality has risen rapidly. I agree with you that the FED has been "playing" with the money supply and that has also contributed to the matter, however, they have been doing that for ages. The major contribution to the 2008 crisis comes from the low taxation on the rich, their money went to speculation since they have low marginal spending rates, and that money disconnected the financial sector from the real economy.

[asperin]

@tiagovq

Those countries you mentioned spend very little on military compared to the US, of course they can have some good money, but still, they aren't as Socialist as you think, they have been rated as economically free by the Heritage Foundation.

Central America suffered a lot of US interventionism and the people and its history is not like of those living in Europe.

[tiagovq]

@asperin Thats my point, those countries in Europe are economically free, however they are socialist countries. In Denmark for instance, all education is paid by the government (even universities), health care is paid by the goverment, maternity leaves are quite long and TAX rates on the rich are extremely high. The rich pay up to 60% on some brackets. All those countries have HUGE goverment and are FREE and HAPPY. My point!

[WilliamHollender]

@tiagovq European countries are not socialist; they are social-democratic. 

[cowboy1165]

@tiagovq Ah, ha ha ha. That's very funny. Have you been outside lately?

[OpenYourMindQuaid]

@tiagovq

Apparently you missed the point of the debate. It's about a centrally controlled money supply. Keynes in this regard has not been proven right, but demonstrably wrong.

[tiagovq]

@OpenYourMindQuaid No. Keynes was proven right all the time. Thats why you cannot even mention one sinlge country which adopted Hayek's theories. And there is a good reason for that: they don't work!

[Buergs323]

Didn't realize it until now but the bartenders Ben and Tim are Ben Bernake and Tim Geithner!

Haha Thats great! They''re getting Keynes drunk!!

[onepiecefan74]

this video is so great. got me into economics

[Ishpeck]

I adore that video. I listened to the song every day for months.