kosen judo was a style practices in japan´s highschools, nothing to do with bjj, the brazilian art is much more fluid, kosen judo judo is more "stiffier"(i can´t find the correct word to express it)
@Mitchx42 both arts go straight to the point, look, there´s something in latinamerica that we call "jogo bonito" that means something like "beauty play", is what gives the art the beauty, kosen judo is more robot-like. Kosen judo represent the correct and educated japanese people, BJJ represent the brazilian blood, the dancing-like moves.
Yeah I did Google it. And Kosen Judo was described as a "style of Judo" on wiki. so I thought it may be something totally different then 'normal' Judo.
I hear statements saying BJJ guys don't respect Judo, bullshit!! While I'm training judo, the more skilled BJJ players are watching and when I'm done, they ask all sorts of questions from" how'd you do that" to "that was awesome" to "can you show me that, I have a BJJ competition this week, I'd like to try that". As time goes on, more schools are going to be training both arts taking it back to it's roots.
All this arguing from BJJ and Judo players had to stop. I started off wrestling and presently train a little of it now but as a BJJ player for the last 3 years, I find judo to be a perfect compliment for it(due partly because of the gi). Judo throws and trips are very sneaky and similar to freestyle wrestling. Bottom line, if you want to be great at one art, train the others. I train at a school that has all 3 grappling arts(wrestling, Judo and BJJ).
@19thaman79 you know what is the problem, the training and competition becuase if you notice bjj have all shotokan judo newaza keys... I think that in judo´s competition needs to end with a tap out. I always call the bjj, kosen judo.
@BalanceNY I also have trained in Renzo's Gracies academy. Their focus is newaza and they incorporate anything that works. They play it under different rules from competition Judo.
the majority of you dude calling bjj kosen judo sound like judo guys who have zero knowledge on bjj remember this the only judoka that beat helio gracie was kimura he choked out the rest of them and in brazil judo is called kano jiu jitsu so that why the gracies called their style gracie jiu jitsu instead of gracie judo also bjj is a progressive martial art unlike judo which rarely adds new techniques that is the main difference between it and kosen judo
Kosen judo is & were allowed to develope any newaza technique.
According to the testamony of Tsunetane Oda, Kano gave him permission to do experiement in whatever he wanted in newaza (thats not found in Olympic judo newaza). Its only recently that an interest of near extinct Kosen judo has taken place in Japan.
@1NX9 Thanks for telling me that but if judo schools were less competition oriented and more self defense oriented judo would probably get more respect from BJJ guys
The problem started when judo became an Olympic sport.
Kosen judo is pretty rare. Only a few masters left now. Oda himself wrote a two volume book (over 1000 pages long) filled with newaza techniques that the kosen guys were continously developing. Its unfortunately he passed away taking alot of the techniques to the grave with him.
@i32504 i been doing bjj for a month now and ive noticed bjj guys repect judo guys very much we got 3 judo black belts and during the comps the other corners were yelling "watch out for that guys judo" we do judo and bjj in reality its the same thing
another thing ive noticed is that high level bjj guys are doing judo jacare and roger gracie to name two, in this months ufc mag roger gracie talks about how he loves doing judo at the budwokai in england
@6ookstazz yeah i respect judo guy to tell the truth i'd even like to try it the only thing is the majority of the judo schools neglact the ground game because its not a big part of there competitions by the way andre galvao started in judo i know a few judo guys who do bjj and there good
@i32504 i actually do bjj also, a part of has been wanting to try it for a long time (dad did judo in korea) but i grew up wrestling and thats my bread and butter i got lucky with my gym they do bjj and judo and wrestling
@6ookstazz yeah i respect judo guys to tell the truth i'd even like to try it the only thing is the majority of the judo schools neglect the ground game because its not a big part of there competitions by the way andre galvao started in judo i know a few judo guys who do bjj and there good they do so they can compensate for the newaza and that kind of stuff
@i32504 ya man i grew up wrestling and now do bjj and wish deep down inside i knew judo i get jealous when the guys i work out with do uchi matas or crazy hip throws or a lift
i dont care what anyone says judo looks fuckin sick and it hurts ALOT and btw they have a unique ground game also (im talking about Olympic judo not Kosen of course)
excellent video..and why are all you fools so focused on Gracie jiu jitsu, I thought the video was on kosen judo the newaza aspect of judo. Christ take your hat off to them! who in the hell would have ever thought that it would become world popular in the 1980's or 1990's. Well what the crap do I know I been doing judo for 40 years, wish I thought of it, they got rich and shall for ever be remembered like it or not.
Would a difference between Kosen Judo and BJJ be how the fights are judged and the criteria for winning? IE does a throw that would be ippon in Kodokan Judo still be ippon in Kosen Judo wiing the match and does 2 wazaris win as well as being pinned down etc?
@1NX9 Kosen Judo is the newaza-focused judo practiced by the Kosen universities of Japan. They discovered long before the Maeda even went to Brazil that taking the fight to the ground allows a smaller, less experienced judoka to stall out a larger, more experienced judoka that would easily win if the fight remained standing. When the success of Kosen judokas became known, the focus on newaza began to overshadow tachiwaza, so Kano put rules in place limiting the amount of time for newaza.
@1NX9 Ye I think some Judo players began to pull guard and cos there was no limit on the ground work they found it very effective against players who could throw better. Kano thought it took away from the sport a bit so he changed the rules but when the guys who had success on the ground wanted to continue like that he let them and the universities and the old rules like before he named Kosen. Thats what I read anyway jst wasn't sure of the rules for Kosen now.
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Did Sambo came up with every leg lock in the face of earth?
To call BJJ=Judo is disrespectful, to say that guys like rolls, de la riva, gordo, carlos sr, carlos jr, were just ripping off judo is quite simplistic
@daar22284 BJJ isn't judo... it's judo newaza. Maeda was a judoka, he couldn't have taught them anything but judo (at the time called "Kano Jiu-Jitsu"). The gracies decided to focus on newaza - the same as what the Kosen judokas had already done. A focus that prompted Kano to change the rules of sport judo to favor tachiwaza. What's disrespectful is to call Brazilian Newaza Judo "BJJ".
@BloodofPatriots I can see why you would say that, but considering the Gracies themselves call it "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu", not "Gracie Newaza Judo", I think it is best to follow their lead and call it what they call it. Should they change it, so would the rest of us but they spearhead everything G/BJJ so pretty much what they say goes.
@mataleao1994 Why follow the lead of thieves and liars? The gracies have been proven to be frauds. They invented nothing. All they did was focus on the Judo Newaza Maeda taught Helio. The Kosen Universities has already done that, including inventing "pulling guard". The gracies even renamed judo techniques so they could pass them off as their own inventions -- a complete lie. Why reward thieves and liars? It's all marketing.
@BloodofPatriots If it werent for the Gracies openly teaching Jiujitsu, non of us here would have a chance to learn it. Do you think Japanese would so openly teach it to everyone who wishes to learn?
Although, I agree that original & Kosen Judo is what made BJJ where it is today, I do have to say that Sport Judo (competition based judo) does not allow the utilization of everything that judo has to offer. Due to the new rules where one cannot touch the legs of an opponent + old rules changed by Kano where time spent on the ground is limited .. the sport side of Judo impacted how the moves are still practiced... BUT, traditional schools even today, still practice everything that judo offers.
@WildWilde if you want to utilize everything that judo has to offer in Newaza, either do lots of randori (against different schools) or attend freestyle Sambo or bjj competitions. Sambo is between Judo & BJJ in terms of ground grappling. It allows MORE time on the ground than Judo but if you don't keep on improving your position and/or keep attacking your opponent, you will get stood up in Sambo. So in Sambo, you can attack, counter attack, defend during grappling without being stood up.
@glock70 okay I was just woundering the last Tourney I was in the Judge said we can't do Ura Nage and I happen to like Ura Nage its a great counter I really did not hear the whole explanation from the Judge so I stayed away from the throw all together but thanks for the heads up.
@juicespirit all these arts are so eclectic now, it is hard to say which is which. I know all the submission BJJ claim to be their own has japanese names to them which have been around for years. I am not disrespecting bjj, I made the rank of blue belt and competed and did well against many purple. I train in sambo now because I love the throws and leg locks.
@bubbaroy73 In my opinion (I am a grappler) Sambo is the ultimate package. Everyone thinks that Sambo has no chokes, that's incorrect. Almost every Russian Sambist (on a master level) also has black belts in Judo (eg. Oleg Taktarov, Fedor, Oilenik, Kharitanov, etc) So they are extremely familiar with chokes, which they utilize in Combat Sambo competitions. FIAS (main governing body of Sambo) recognizes Freestyle Sambo, which is judo + bjj + sport sambo. That's the best grappling art you can use.
@pcjudosambo I train and an ASA accredited Sambo school here in austin texas and it does have tons of chokes. What BJJ never taught me which Sambo has taught me are the awesome throws and leglocks. Been training here for a year and Sambo Steve been down here a few times to give a Sambo clinic.
Kosen judo is not merely judo newaza. It is a group of schools, including Kyoto university, who agreed on a set of rules for competition and continued using them after different standardized rules were adapted by the Kodokan.
Toshikazu Okada, a longtime student of the late, famous Oda, has been teaching old "Kosen"-style newaza in clinics with Hal Sharp for a few years. I recommend it highly, as it is an eye-opener, especially regarding osaekomi waza. That isn't to say that he has nothing to teach about standing judo, either; he usually works some in, and it's interesting.
Kosen judo (none BJJ) = doesn't exist in 99% of judo schools. So call it what you will but anyone can play the name game. A technique is a technique.. the top BJJ guys would wipe the mat with any of the top judo guys. The top judo guys would kill any of the job BJJ guys in "judo" rules. each has evolved to be good at one thing.
@monji112000 not true,,,rickson lost to a judo guy, royce got choked out in pride by a judo guy,,put to sleep,,it is all about the fighter, not the style!
@monji112000 said "each evolve to be good at one thing."
If I recall correctly the reason why Kodokan judo focused more on stand up techniques was because many judo guys at the time were heavily focused on newaza and Kano was concern that stand up techniques would be lost. Kosen is really pre war judo though.
In Bastos, Brazil is a old judo school and the practice s there is 3 hours, 1 hour working out, 1 newaza, 1 naque waza and handory, if we do that every day, not many people can bit us.
The Gracies did creat some nice moves, but if we study, bjj dont have a kata, and if bjj came before judo why 97% of the bjj black belts dont know all the gokyo tecniques? Bjj is a great sport, but is just judo with diferent rules that give more inportance to ne waza
@geezerds the gracie learned judo in the 1920.....obviously they didnt learn all the finer points or techniques kuz maeda probably held back as the gracies werent japanese..rickson gracie said in his book. They taught them basics and newaza but not the whole judo curriculum. example the gracie didnt learn the trangle choke till the 60s when they picked it up from judokas in brazil. and they dont have katas kuz they threw all the formal traditional training out for live sparring obviously
I m black belt in judo, and brown belt in bjj, but I study a lot history, I went to Japan in 1999 to practices in Tenri University, and Kyoto police academy, and I can tell that judo came before bjj, but a lot people stopped to practices ne waza because of the rules of olimpic judo, but the right thing to do is to practice ne waza and handori every practices,
i've heard karate having multiple styles such as (kyokushin, shotokan) and taekwondo (ITF, WTF) but never heard judo having a different style.. then what's the DIFFERENCE between kosen judo and bjj?
from what i've been told kosen judo is not a style. it was a university club that practiced old school judo that had alot more ne waza (ground techniques) ....judo is judo is judo. all judo is kodokan judo. this club emphasized old school judo and not the new sportive rules.
kosen judo simply refers to the judo practiced by judo clubs in japanese universities. since they lacked the proper instruction to develop good tachi waza, they compensated by working on newaza. mitsuyo maeda was a product of this, and he taught the gracies, who refined it into bjj
he was a member of the kodokan (though i do believe he was enrolled at wasada university). but he was a product of the emphasis on newaza that the kosen judo movement brought
he was also influenced by alot of other styles, not just judo. i have always read that he was a terrible student and failed english. so perhaps he was at one time involved with a university. who knows
At the beggining of Kodokan, the term JU-DO was not used. The teaching posed by Jigoro Kano was known as Kano Ryu Ju-Jutso. Gracie family learned the Kano Ryu Ju Jutsu and gave emphasis to Ne-Waza while the Japanese schools followed the Nague-Waza path to reach the olympic status. In terms of origin, BJJ is the Ne-Waza system teached by Jigoro Kano and refined by Mitsuo Maeda (for real combats against other styles).
Ju-Do is more than a technique, DO is a way of life.
No they don't. Please tell me who these BJJ coach are. You don't know because it's not true. Please give evidence. Quit talking out of your ass. You have no proof what so ever.
Judo came from Japanese jujitsu when Kano judo began it was far more similar to modern japanese judo
After WW2 Judo rules changed to turn it into even more of a sport than it was before (leg locks etc.. were removed )
Maeda took the original pre ww2 Kano judo to Brazil where it was morphed and tweaked into Bjj thus why many of the moves not seen in modern day judo are normal practice i.e. (knee bars, toe holds, and Guillotines)
you really gotta take the time that all this happened into account you got kano jiu jitsu ( at that time he was fighting to get it called judo) and the gracies had a different theroy for there jiu jitsu so they called it gracie jiu jitsu the two have grown into different sports i have done both and have stayed in bjj and do judo once in a blue moon and find bjj way more fun and less harder on the body .
train together and share technique its the way to go !!
looks like i didn't realize i was interjecting into an ongoing conversation :)
I wasn't trying to make any sort of point - that's just what happened. Maeda was a businessman and a showman, so he went with the recognizable name. Didn't mean to comment on anything broader than that.
maybe just admiting that they learn from a japanese Judoka called Maeda 5 dan Pure Kodokan Judo , sended over brasil to expend Judo trought out the World with like Kanio did with other of his students?
I do agree that everything is in contant evolution, but if you go to check on 20's judo kosen like for example sensei oda Kimura and other, that is where your bjj is about...Judo with emphasis on the grownd
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Sorry guys but as much as most of you don't want to hear it, KOSEN JUDO IS THE PARENT ART OF BJJ - PERIOD. I know that your teacher told you otherwise. I know that his teacher told him otherwise too. But they're wrong as well. Ne Waza (grappling) had begun its practice in judo in 1901 by the teachings of Fusen Ryu Jujutsu. This is MUCH EARLIER than the bs bjj likes to peddle. Maeda was like EVERYONE ELSE in judo. He practiced tachi waza AND ne waza. Helio & Rorian Gracie created NOTHING!
NOOOOOOOOOO YOU ARE WRONG. "KODOKAN JUDO' IS THE FATHER OF BJJ" . Gogoplata is bjj. If it ain't find me a credible link that shows the gogoplata is a judo move.
Ok, I researched it, judo does have a shin choke, but the bjj gogoplata is different. They are not exactly the same technique. Gogoplata seems to be more modified to no gi grappling. Correct?
yeah, thats what it looks like, the technique from no-gi looks more secure as there would be no Gi to help restrict other bodily movement which may assist in escaping, but i think kagato-jime was still the original concept of choking with the shin. i have been kagato'd at my judo club and i couldn't escape, but i was facing a 5th dan import from japan lolz who i outweighed but he still crushed me
Actually, I'm not wrong. And trying to place proper history with a stupid portuguese term just goes to show your lack of education. I wrote all the historical references one would need in an earlier post. And you responded with "gogoplata"? Yeah good job. LMAO. And as far as "the twister" goes, Eddie actually admits that he got that from wrestling in high school. So, sorry - no bjj there either little guy. Bjj SHOULD, however, be given credit for lying to the world about its history though.
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I am sick and tired of judokas talking trash. Kosen Judo, Kodokan judo whatever, its judo no matter what. Judo comes from Jiu jitsu, so if Bjj comes from judo it gives Brazilians the right to call their art Brazilian jiu jitsu because technically judo is jiu jitsu. And I know for a fact that not all submissions known to man exist in Kosen judo. Bjj is a refined, more effective, and revolutionized art than Kosen Judo. So, Judokas don't be jelous of Bjj, instead educate and learn the refined art.
Those throws just need modification, that's all. Of course a throw that primarily uses the grip on the gi isn't going to work no gi, but neither are sleeve chokes or lapel chokes if you want to use a ground example. Everything just needs to be modified to suit the situation. There are kids in wrestling tournaments pulling off seoi-nages and uchimatas, traditionally very gi oriented throws without the benefit of the gi. It is not viable to say these throws don't work.
in the martial arts, when you learn certain technique it does not mean you can't "modify" the technique but to be able to adapt to the situation just like the example you gave us, on the the other hand I could see someone using their opponents collar from their shirt and choking them out- it's just an idea thats all- remember techniques are about creativity and are not static but dynamic!
i ve rolled with a lot of judo guys,hell i used to be one,but not one was as technical as this guys in the vid.i compited in bjj tournaments and i can say the guys from this vid have a different style one the ground,very effective nonetheless,but very different in set ups.
You're comparing post-1925 "sport" judo with the newaza of traditional judo shown in the video. Newaza judokas (nicknamed "Kosen judokas") have been specialists in newaza since the 1800s.
They are not judokas to mess with when on the ground. They have the techniques and flexibility of BJJ-players, plus the gorilla-strength and balance only judo can develop.
Rubber guard is not new. If by "Kosen" you mean judo Newaza then you are correct. Kosen means university or techincal school, not a style. They just focus on Newaza.
Yes, the gracies took the Kosen judo techniques and called it jiu jitsu, they should get credit for introducing it to the world, but they should NOT have named it "Gracie jiu jitsu", just because the Gracies lied does not mean people who study Kosen judo/BJJ shouldn't be able to develop new techniques (the gracies DID NOT invent anything new), there are others who have though, like Submissions101, 10th planet jiu jitsu, and BJ penn, i was never referring that the gracies invented anything new.
The Gracies didn't learn Kosen judo. Kosen judo began during the 1920s while Meada (Gracie's teacher) had already left japan by 1904 to spread judo and never came back. Meada came to Brazil in 1916 and taught Carlos Gracie regular judo. Meada is credited as the father of Brazilian judo not jujitsu. The Gracies change judo to fit thier ideals and simply kept the term jujitsu to seperate itself from judo. BJJ came from judo but it is now a seperate style.
Newaza judo has been practiced in the Kosen universities of Japan since the late 1800s. Sport judo with emphasis on throws did not arise until Kano's rule change in 1925. "Regular" judo, as you call it, is traditional judo which is a complete martial science with throws, groundfighting, blocks and 20+ strikes.
BJJ is not a separate style at all. It's nothing more than newaza-obsessed "Kano-jujitsu", also known as Newaza Judo (or Kosen Judo). The Gracies are frauds.
Kosen did not begin in the 1800s. Kosen began in the 1920s. The word kosen tranlates as technical school or special university. Folks went to kosen schools to learn about science and engineering not ground fighting. Kosen judo is just regular judo as practiced by the kosen student body. Its like wresting in Iowa. People call it Iowa wrestling but it's just regular wrestling as practice by the Iowa Hawkeyes.
Kosen schools adopted Judo as an athletic program not long after the 1886 Tokyo police challenge. They focused so much on newaza that Kano himself organized the first "Kosen Taikai" in 1914. By the early 1920s, the success of Kosen judokas caused other judokas to place more emphasis on newaza leading to a decline in tachiwaza. So in 1925, Kano added new anti-newaza rules to regular judo tournaments, but left the Kosen tournaments alone. The emphasis is different, but, yes, it's traditional judo.
BloodofPatriots your 1st paragraph shows you know about martial arts. The 2nd contradicts this! experts in Judo and Bjj (such as Dave Camarillo) agree the style of grappling developed in Brazil is, in it current form, far more technically detailed than the kodokan style of newaza. Bjj practitioners have proven this time and again by dominating judoka on the ground in competition.
Your ignorant conservative attitude is exactly that which has allowed judo to become inferior on the ground.
You are ENTIRELY INCORRECT. The camarillo's are NOT historical authorities of ANY KIND on grappling whatsoever. To say that grappling was developed in Brazil is the most asinine and uneducated comment on youtube. Wrestling is the oldest activity in the world and has been practiced in every country. It has existed for over 4000 years in China. Jujutsu (spelled properly) STILL EXISTS IN JAPAN. Jujutsu is a JAPANESE MARTIAL ART -- NOT BRAZILIAN. When are you dumb fucks going to realize that?
1) I said "the style of grappling developed in Brazil" ie. BJJ. I am well aware of its history and I am not suggesting that Brazil is the origin of all grappling...
Incorrect. The Brazilians where taught this by Medea, a Japanese judo player who was the Kodokans groundwork master..who also fought no hold barred fights alover the world years before the Gracie's did the same thing.
Gracie jujitsu and BJJ are 2 different things and even the Gracie's say that and dislike being called BJJ..
BJJ is competition orientated like Judo with no striking, Gracie is a street self defense system with Lotta stand up stuff BJJ doesn't have..
2)BJJ is a subspecies of pre ww2 Judo, however to suggest that it is nothing more than kosen Judo is wrong. The technical differences are subtle yet significant. Moreover there are 2 major differences: the Gracies' interest in inter-style fighting, especially against striking opponents (Kosen Judo has no such application) and the points system of their sport which emphasizes a more technical style of grappling. Show me a Kosen champ submitting a bjj champ and I'll eat my words!...
3) As for the claim that the Gracies are frauds, I know a lot of fuck-wits think arm-bars and triangles were invented in Brazil, I've never heard a Gracie say that; they are perfectly open about the history of their style...
4)The fraudulent martial artists think they can knock you out without touching you...but they only demonstrate on their own students. The Gracies have always proven themselves in the most reliable way there is: challenge fights against every style. In this arena as well as in pure grappling they have proved themselves time and again.
The Camarillos may not be "historical figures" but they are current top-level experts on the subject and are expert in Judo AND bjj... I suspect you are not...
5)By the way, the spelling of JuJutsu is not set in stone. It's Japanese and the pronunciation is debatable. There is no "proper" spelling in English, only conventional spelling. It's called transliteration.
I should add that I do not like the air of commercialism surrounding BJJ, and I'm actually more interested in Judo. Cheers.
Very well put. Even Grand Master Helio Gracie states in several interviews that he learned Judo from his brother and that he adapted it to create his own style (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu). The difference between his style and judo is in the stand up self defense curriculum which is completely different than the Kodokan's and his defensive strategy from the bottom which cannot be found in any judo style.
Bjj derived from Kosen Judo -- not Kodokan Judo. That's why Helio Gracie lies to everyone about the true history of his grappling education. He obviously couldn't tell people the truth that what he had learned was what EVERYONE ELSE WAS ALREADY DOING now could he. Hell, he'd lose business right? So he obviously had to lie to promote himself. The same way Whore-ian (Rorian Gracie) lied to everyone about the UFC and how the GRACIE FAMILY SET THE WHOLE THING UP! That's nothing but FRAUD!
Raging 5. Just a quick glance at your list and at least 6 of those techniques I know for a fact are not GJJ/BJJ inventions. They are all in old Judo books. Good try though.
You must be confusing the techniques i named with ones that have already been invented because the ones i just named are not from any classical textbooks of Kosen judo, the ones i just named are newly invented submissions most of them were INFACT DEVELOPED by the Submissions101 team and Eddie bravo's 10th planet jiu jitsu, you won't find them in Kosen judo.
Brazilians created the ju jutsu and other big invention of them was the Christianity!
sexoja23 1 month ago in playlist Liked videos
Sweet, lots of pentagram chokes!
MobiusCoin 2 months ago
kosen judo was a style practices in japan´s highschools, nothing to do with bjj, the brazilian art is much more fluid, kosen judo judo is more "stiffier"(i can´t find the correct word to express it)
CaBeeful 3 months ago
@CaBeeful You mean straight to the point
Mitchx42 2 months ago
@Mitchx42 both arts go straight to the point, look, there´s something in latinamerica that we call "jogo bonito" that means something like "beauty play", is what gives the art the beauty, kosen judo is more robot-like. Kosen judo represent the correct and educated japanese people, BJJ represent the brazilian blood, the dancing-like moves.
CaBeeful 2 months ago
So what exactly is the difference between Kosen Judo and 'normal' Judo?
DrMabuse2006 4 months ago
@DrMabuse2006 normal judo focus on throwing, and kosen judo or bjj focus more on ground.
Danieldx22 4 months ago
@Danieldx22
So it's not something radically different just the focus lying on some other aspect of it all?
DrMabuse2006 4 months ago
@DrMabuse2006 yep, that is correct. BJJ uses all newaza keys of judo. I recomend you to google it.
Danieldx22 4 months ago
@Danieldx22
Yeah I did Google it. And Kosen Judo was described as a "style of Judo" on wiki. so I thought it may be something totally different then 'normal' Judo.
DrMabuse2006 4 months ago
I hear statements saying BJJ guys don't respect Judo, bullshit!! While I'm training judo, the more skilled BJJ players are watching and when I'm done, they ask all sorts of questions from" how'd you do that" to "that was awesome" to "can you show me that, I have a BJJ competition this week, I'd like to try that". As time goes on, more schools are going to be training both arts taking it back to it's roots.
19thaman79 4 months ago
All this arguing from BJJ and Judo players had to stop. I started off wrestling and presently train a little of it now but as a BJJ player for the last 3 years, I find judo to be a perfect compliment for it(due partly because of the gi). Judo throws and trips are very sneaky and similar to freestyle wrestling. Bottom line, if you want to be great at one art, train the others. I train at a school that has all 3 grappling arts(wrestling, Judo and BJJ).
19thaman79 4 months ago
@19thaman79 you know what is the problem, the training and competition becuase if you notice bjj have all shotokan judo newaza keys... I think that in judo´s competition needs to end with a tap out. I always call the bjj, kosen judo.
Danieldx22 4 months ago
@Danieldx22 Agreed
WWEwrestlingfan190 4 months ago
@BalanceNY I also have trained in Renzo's Gracies academy. Their focus is newaza and they incorporate anything that works. They play it under different rules from competition Judo.
lallope 5 months ago
modern day judo + BJJ = Real Judo
SurfacingChannel 5 months ago
Amazing very kool I love Judo!
jissenteki 6 months ago
the majority of you dude calling bjj kosen judo sound like judo guys who have zero knowledge on bjj remember this the only judoka that beat helio gracie was kimura he choked out the rest of them and in brazil judo is called kano jiu jitsu so that why the gracies called their style gracie jiu jitsu instead of gracie judo also bjj is a progressive martial art unlike judo which rarely adds new techniques that is the main difference between it and kosen judo
i32504 10 months ago
@i32504
Kosen judo is not Olympic judo.
Kosen judo is & were allowed to develope any newaza technique.
According to the testamony of Tsunetane Oda, Kano gave him permission to do experiement in whatever he wanted in newaza (thats not found in Olympic judo newaza). Its only recently that an interest of near extinct Kosen judo has taken place in Japan.
1NX9 9 months ago
@1NX9 Thanks for telling me that but if judo schools were less competition oriented and more self defense oriented judo would probably get more respect from BJJ guys
i32504 9 months ago
@i32504
Not a problem bro.
The problem started when judo became an Olympic sport.
Kosen judo is pretty rare. Only a few masters left now. Oda himself wrote a two volume book (over 1000 pages long) filled with newaza techniques that the kosen guys were continously developing. Its unfortunately he passed away taking alot of the techniques to the grave with him.
1NX9 9 months ago
@1NX9 2011 is the 100th anniversary of Oda-sensei receiving his black belt from Kano himself.
BloodofPatriots 6 months ago
@i32504 i been doing bjj for a month now and ive noticed bjj guys repect judo guys very much we got 3 judo black belts and during the comps the other corners were yelling "watch out for that guys judo" we do judo and bjj in reality its the same thing
another thing ive noticed is that high level bjj guys are doing judo jacare and roger gracie to name two, in this months ufc mag roger gracie talks about how he loves doing judo at the budwokai in england
judo+bjj=dangerous
6ookstazz 9 months ago
@6ookstazz yeah i respect judo guy to tell the truth i'd even like to try it the only thing is the majority of the judo schools neglact the ground game because its not a big part of there competitions by the way andre galvao started in judo i know a few judo guys who do bjj and there good
i32504 9 months ago
@i32504 i actually do bjj also, a part of has been wanting to try it for a long time (dad did judo in korea) but i grew up wrestling and thats my bread and butter i got lucky with my gym they do bjj and judo and wrestling
maybe we'll even do some Aikido jk lol
6ookstazz 8 months ago
@6ookstazz yeah i respect judo guys to tell the truth i'd even like to try it the only thing is the majority of the judo schools neglect the ground game because its not a big part of there competitions by the way andre galvao started in judo i know a few judo guys who do bjj and there good they do so they can compensate for the newaza and that kind of stuff
i32504 9 months ago
@i32504 ya man i grew up wrestling and now do bjj and wish deep down inside i knew judo i get jealous when the guys i work out with do uchi matas or crazy hip throws or a lift
i dont care what anyone says judo looks fuckin sick and it hurts ALOT and btw they have a unique ground game also (im talking about Olympic judo not Kosen of course)
6ookstazz 8 months ago
@i32504 so does Robson Moura
radular 5 months ago
excellent video..and why are all you fools so focused on Gracie jiu jitsu, I thought the video was on kosen judo the newaza aspect of judo. Christ take your hat off to them! who in the hell would have ever thought that it would become world popular in the 1980's or 1990's. Well what the crap do I know I been doing judo for 40 years, wish I thought of it, they got rich and shall for ever be remembered like it or not.
lallope 10 months ago
really cool
JKT6 11 months ago
huum, que legal -*-
juhgb1 11 months ago
*winning
Jimmynable 11 months ago
Would a difference between Kosen Judo and BJJ be how the fights are judged and the criteria for winning? IE does a throw that would be ippon in Kodokan Judo still be ippon in Kosen Judo wiing the match and does 2 wazaris win as well as being pinned down etc?
Jimmynable 11 months ago
@Jimmynable
I believe kosen judo was pre war judo. Its just when Kodokan judo became an Olympic sport, point rules were put in place.
1NX9 11 months ago
@1NX9 Kosen Judo is the newaza-focused judo practiced by the Kosen universities of Japan. They discovered long before the Maeda even went to Brazil that taking the fight to the ground allows a smaller, less experienced judoka to stall out a larger, more experienced judoka that would easily win if the fight remained standing. When the success of Kosen judokas became known, the focus on newaza began to overshadow tachiwaza, so Kano put rules in place limiting the amount of time for newaza.
BloodofPatriots 10 months ago
@1NX9 Ye I think some Judo players began to pull guard and cos there was no limit on the ground work they found it very effective against players who could throw better. Kano thought it took away from the sport a bit so he changed the rules but when the guys who had success on the ground wanted to continue like that he let them and the universities and the old rules like before he named Kosen. Thats what I read anyway jst wasn't sure of the rules for Kosen now.
Jimmynable 10 months ago
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zayne024 1 year ago
@chilidog1001
4c00h 1 year ago
Boy this never get old...
Did Kano came up with every move in judo himself?
Did Sambo came up with every leg lock in the face of earth?
To call BJJ=Judo is disrespectful, to say that guys like rolls, de la riva, gordo, carlos sr, carlos jr, were just ripping off judo is quite simplistic
daar22284 1 year ago
@daar22284 BJJ isn't judo... it's judo newaza. Maeda was a judoka, he couldn't have taught them anything but judo (at the time called "Kano Jiu-Jitsu"). The gracies decided to focus on newaza - the same as what the Kosen judokas had already done. A focus that prompted Kano to change the rules of sport judo to favor tachiwaza. What's disrespectful is to call Brazilian Newaza Judo "BJJ".
BloodofPatriots 11 months ago
@BloodofPatriots I can see why you would say that, but considering the Gracies themselves call it "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu", not "Gracie Newaza Judo", I think it is best to follow their lead and call it what they call it. Should they change it, so would the rest of us but they spearhead everything G/BJJ so pretty much what they say goes.
mataleao1994 10 months ago
@mataleao1994 Why follow the lead of thieves and liars? The gracies have been proven to be frauds. They invented nothing. All they did was focus on the Judo Newaza Maeda taught Helio. The Kosen Universities has already done that, including inventing "pulling guard". The gracies even renamed judo techniques so they could pass them off as their own inventions -- a complete lie. Why reward thieves and liars? It's all marketing.
BloodofPatriots 10 months ago
@BloodofPatriots
Totally agree with you bro. "Brazilian jujiutsu" is really traditional judo.
1NX9 10 months ago 2
@BloodofPatriots If it werent for the Gracies openly teaching Jiujitsu, non of us here would have a chance to learn it. Do you think Japanese would so openly teach it to everyone who wishes to learn?
juicespirit 4 months ago
@juicespirit You do know who taught Helio Gracie, right? Mitsuyo Maeda... on orders to spread Judo from Jigoru Kano himself.
BloodofPatriots 4 months ago
@BloodofPatriots Maeda taught carlos gracie homie.
overthehill91 1 month ago
Although, I agree that original & Kosen Judo is what made BJJ where it is today, I do have to say that Sport Judo (competition based judo) does not allow the utilization of everything that judo has to offer. Due to the new rules where one cannot touch the legs of an opponent + old rules changed by Kano where time spent on the ground is limited .. the sport side of Judo impacted how the moves are still practiced... BUT, traditional schools even today, still practice everything that judo offers.
pcjudosambo 1 year ago 2
I wish that in competitions the refs would allow more time to the newaza
WildWilde 1 year ago
@WildWilde if you want to utilize everything that judo has to offer in Newaza, either do lots of randori (against different schools) or attend freestyle Sambo or bjj competitions. Sambo is between Judo & BJJ in terms of ground grappling. It allows MORE time on the ground than Judo but if you don't keep on improving your position and/or keep attacking your opponent, you will get stood up in Sambo. So in Sambo, you can attack, counter attack, defend during grappling without being stood up.
pcjudosambo 1 year ago
@WildWilde Me too the new rule change is no Ura Nage? do you know if that is true?
glock70 1 year ago
@glock70 No, you just can't body lock or interlock your fingers
RagingDemon89 1 year ago
@glock70 okay I was just woundering the last Tourney I was in the Judge said we can't do Ura Nage and I happen to like Ura Nage its a great counter I really did not hear the whole explanation from the Judge so I stayed away from the throw all together but thanks for the heads up.
glock70 1 year ago
Amazing video I have subscribed
infokemp 1 year ago
What was the first move in this video at 21 seconds called?
EndDepravity 1 year ago
this is what the gracies learned in the 20's, they did nothing more but change the name to BJJ
bubbaroy73 1 year ago
@bubbaroy73 dont be disrespectful. the japanese are adding gracie jiujitsu back into judo now
juicespirit 1 year ago
@juicespirit all these arts are so eclectic now, it is hard to say which is which. I know all the submission BJJ claim to be their own has japanese names to them which have been around for years. I am not disrespecting bjj, I made the rank of blue belt and competed and did well against many purple. I train in sambo now because I love the throws and leg locks.
bubbaroy73 1 year ago
@bubbaroy73 In my opinion (I am a grappler) Sambo is the ultimate package. Everyone thinks that Sambo has no chokes, that's incorrect. Almost every Russian Sambist (on a master level) also has black belts in Judo (eg. Oleg Taktarov, Fedor, Oilenik, Kharitanov, etc) So they are extremely familiar with chokes, which they utilize in Combat Sambo competitions. FIAS (main governing body of Sambo) recognizes Freestyle Sambo, which is judo + bjj + sport sambo. That's the best grappling art you can use.
pcjudosambo 1 year ago
@pcjudosambo I train and an ASA accredited Sambo school here in austin texas and it does have tons of chokes. What BJJ never taught me which Sambo has taught me are the awesome throws and leglocks. Been training here for a year and Sambo Steve been down here a few times to give a Sambo clinic.
bubbaroy73 1 year ago
Kosen judo is not merely judo newaza. It is a group of schools, including Kyoto university, who agreed on a set of rules for competition and continued using them after different standardized rules were adapted by the Kodokan.
mateo2006 1 year ago
1:09 legendary !!! Anton Geesink win over Akio Kaminaga
garciag03 1 year ago
Nice video. Thanks for posting it!
luispantoja 1 year ago
Toshikazu Okada, a longtime student of the late, famous Oda, has been teaching old "Kosen"-style newaza in clinics with Hal Sharp for a few years. I recommend it highly, as it is an eye-opener, especially regarding osaekomi waza. That isn't to say that he has nothing to teach about standing judo, either; he usually works some in, and it's interesting.
bkalafut 1 year ago
Comment removed
cozkntt 2 years ago
i miss playing newaza its been three yrs since
gabbomushy 2 years ago
bjj = kosen judo.
monji112000 2 years ago 21
true
ipyonoti 2 years ago
@monji112000 no bjj = watered down kosen judo
chushinryoku 2 years ago 2
Kosen judo (none BJJ) = doesn't exist in 99% of judo schools. So call it what you will but anyone can play the name game. A technique is a technique.. the top BJJ guys would wipe the mat with any of the top judo guys. The top judo guys would kill any of the job BJJ guys in "judo" rules. each has evolved to be good at one thing.
monji112000 2 years ago
@monji112000 not true,,,rickson lost to a judo guy, royce got choked out in pride by a judo guy,,put to sleep,,it is all about the fighter, not the style!
bubbaroy73 1 year ago
@monji112000 said "each evolve to be good at one thing."
If I recall correctly the reason why Kodokan judo focused more on stand up techniques was because many judo guys at the time were heavily focused on newaza and Kano was concern that stand up techniques would be lost. Kosen is really pre war judo though.
1NX9 11 months ago
Bjj = Fusen-Ryu Jujutsu
chapjai 1 year ago 2
@monji112000 ähmm noo!!
TheCre25 1 year ago
@monji112000
judo will never be bjj because of the difference in mentality and goals
4c00h 1 year ago
@4c00h tell me the difference than if there is any
chilidog1001 1 year ago
@4c00h
Your talking about Kodokan judo not pre war Kosen judo.
1NX9 11 months ago
i love this video!
jujitsuvoices 2 years ago
Mifune' did an electric chair sweep on that guy...... damn lol
jiujitsu8840 2 years ago
Comment removed
jiujitsu8840 2 years ago
In Bastos, Brazil is a old judo school and the practice s there is 3 hours, 1 hour working out, 1 newaza, 1 naque waza and handory, if we do that every day, not many people can bit us.
geezerds 2 years ago
The Gracies did creat some nice moves, but if we study, bjj dont have a kata, and if bjj came before judo why 97% of the bjj black belts dont know all the gokyo tecniques? Bjj is a great sport, but is just judo with diferent rules that give more inportance to ne waza
geezerds 2 years ago
@geezerds the gracie learned judo in the 1920.....obviously they didnt learn all the finer points or techniques kuz maeda probably held back as the gracies werent japanese..rickson gracie said in his book. They taught them basics and newaza but not the whole judo curriculum. example the gracie didnt learn the trangle choke till the 60s when they picked it up from judokas in brazil. and they dont have katas kuz they threw all the formal traditional training out for live sparring obviously
anhkhoinguyen 2 years ago 16
@anhkhoinguyen
Which Rickson Gracie book are you refering too?
1NX9 11 months ago
I m black belt in judo, and brown belt in bjj, but I study a lot history, I went to Japan in 1999 to practices in Tenri University, and Kyoto police academy, and I can tell that judo came before bjj, but a lot people stopped to practices ne waza because of the rules of olimpic judo, but the right thing to do is to practice ne waza and handori every practices,
geezerds 2 years ago
At 520 is that Nobuyuki Sato?
Godsmasher22 2 years ago
No, Isao Okano... doubt Sato would be in black and white film.
TOUNICMA 2 years ago
what happened at 1:18 it was kind funny ...
1maicau 2 years ago
change the music ! Judo rules
neomauresque 2 years ago
i've heard karate having multiple styles such as (kyokushin, shotokan) and taekwondo (ITF, WTF) but never heard judo having a different style.. then what's the DIFFERENCE between kosen judo and bjj?
nicojin22 2 years ago
from what i've been told kosen judo is not a style. it was a university club that practiced old school judo that had alot more ne waza (ground techniques) ....judo is judo is judo. all judo is kodokan judo. this club emphasized old school judo and not the new sportive rules.
kempobrad 2 years ago
kosen judo simply refers to the judo practiced by judo clubs in japanese universities. since they lacked the proper instruction to develop good tachi waza, they compensated by working on newaza. mitsuyo maeda was a product of this, and he taught the gracies, who refined it into bjj
IAMME000 2 years ago
every account i've read says he was a member at the kodokan, not a university.
kempobrad 2 years ago
he was a member of the kodokan (though i do believe he was enrolled at wasada university). but he was a product of the emphasis on newaza that the kosen judo movement brought
IAMME000 2 years ago
he was also influenced by alot of other styles, not just judo. i have always read that he was a terrible student and failed english. so perhaps he was at one time involved with a university. who knows
kempobrad 2 years ago
@IAMME000 what are you talking about?. Maeda actually study directly from Kano in the Kodokan
migerusan29 1 year ago
BJJ is Ne-Waza.
At the beggining of Kodokan, the term JU-DO was not used. The teaching posed by Jigoro Kano was known as Kano Ryu Ju-Jutso. Gracie family learned the Kano Ryu Ju Jutsu and gave emphasis to Ne-Waza while the Japanese schools followed the Nague-Waza path to reach the olympic status. In terms of origin, BJJ is the Ne-Waza system teached by Jigoro Kano and refined by Mitsuo Maeda (for real combats against other styles).
Ju-Do is more than a technique, DO is a way of life.
leocmen 2 years ago 5
u can say what u want.but its a fact that all the olympic teams in the world. have a bjj coatches.
neselul 2 years ago
Do you know who the current bjj coach(s) for the Japanese Olympic team is(are)?
1uc3n7 2 years ago
no i dont,but if they have a bjj coachs,it says that the judo newaza is not enough.
neselul 2 years ago
No they don't. Quit dreaming.
judofan 2 years ago
brazil team,usa team,france team,japan team....do
neselul 2 years ago
No they don't. Please tell me who these BJJ coach are. You don't know because it's not true. Please give evidence. Quit talking out of your ass. You have no proof what so ever.
judofan 2 years ago
what are you talking about bjj isnt an Olympic sport
TENNSUMITSUMA 2 years ago
amen.
oopalonga 2 years ago
Ok let me explain
Judo came from Japanese jujitsu when Kano judo began it was far more similar to modern japanese judo
After WW2 Judo rules changed to turn it into even more of a sport than it was before (leg locks etc.. were removed )
Maeda took the original pre ww2 Kano judo to Brazil where it was morphed and tweaked into Bjj thus why many of the moves not seen in modern day judo are normal practice i.e. (knee bars, toe holds, and Guillotines)
-Brown belt Judo & Jujitsu
MEGADETHSHREDDER 2 years ago
you really gotta take the time that all this happened into account you got kano jiu jitsu ( at that time he was fighting to get it called judo) and the gracies had a different theroy for there jiu jitsu so they called it gracie jiu jitsu the two have grown into different sports i have done both and have stayed in bjj and do judo once in a blue moon and find bjj way more fun and less harder on the body .
train together and share technique its the way to go !!
nickynoneck 2 years ago
looks like i didn't realize i was interjecting into an ongoing conversation :)
I wasn't trying to make any sort of point - that's just what happened. Maeda was a businessman and a showman, so he went with the recognizable name. Didn't mean to comment on anything broader than that.
thejibboo 2 years ago
Maeda called it Jiu-Jitsu because Judo was new at the time and, as a business man, he wanted name recognition.
thejibboo 2 years ago
maybe just admiting that they learn from a japanese Judoka called Maeda 5 dan Pure Kodokan Judo , sended over brasil to expend Judo trought out the World with like Kanio did with other of his students?
I do agree that everything is in contant evolution, but if you go to check on 20's judo kosen like for example sensei oda Kimura and other, that is where your bjj is about...Judo with emphasis on the grownd
shiai67 2 years ago
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crimsomtz 2 years ago
to see judo throws using no gi see Mike Swain's instructionals. They are very usable on the street (not that I condone that) :)
herkyoulees 2 years ago
Sorry guys but as much as most of you don't want to hear it, KOSEN JUDO IS THE PARENT ART OF BJJ - PERIOD. I know that your teacher told you otherwise. I know that his teacher told him otherwise too. But they're wrong as well. Ne Waza (grappling) had begun its practice in judo in 1901 by the teachings of Fusen Ryu Jujutsu. This is MUCH EARLIER than the bs bjj likes to peddle. Maeda was like EVERYONE ELSE in judo. He practiced tachi waza AND ne waza. Helio & Rorian Gracie created NOTHING!
rtfmplz 2 years ago 2
NOOOOOOOOOO YOU ARE WRONG. "KODOKAN JUDO' IS THE FATHER OF BJJ" . Gogoplata is bjj. If it ain't find me a credible link that shows the gogoplata is a judo move.
Bjjownsu10 2 years ago
search for Kagata-jime....Shin choke.
JusticeAlliance 2 years ago
Ok, I researched it, judo does have a shin choke, but the bjj gogoplata is different. They are not exactly the same technique. Gogoplata seems to be more modified to no gi grappling. Correct?
Bjjownsu10 2 years ago
yeah, thats what it looks like, the technique from no-gi looks more secure as there would be no Gi to help restrict other bodily movement which may assist in escaping, but i think kagato-jime was still the original concept of choking with the shin. i have been kagato'd at my judo club and i couldn't escape, but i was facing a 5th dan import from japan lolz who i outweighed but he still crushed me
JusticeAlliance 2 years ago
So, either way you still have to give bjj some credit. Also, what you think of the twister?
Bjjownsu10 2 years ago
of course, i would never discredit BJJ, i cross train sometimes at BJJ clubs.
and the twister? as in eddie bravo?
JusticeAlliance 2 years ago
Yes, the twister. A lot of bjj players use the twister now.
Bjjownsu10 2 years ago
Actually, I'm not wrong. And trying to place proper history with a stupid portuguese term just goes to show your lack of education. I wrote all the historical references one would need in an earlier post. And you responded with "gogoplata"? Yeah good job. LMAO. And as far as "the twister" goes, Eddie actually admits that he got that from wrestling in high school. So, sorry - no bjj there either little guy. Bjj SHOULD, however, be given credit for lying to the world about its history though.
rtfmplz 2 years ago 3
"Bjj SHOULD, however, be given credit for lying to the world about its history though".
completely agree ahahaha
tehpwnrer 2 years ago 2
its kagato jime and thats the earliest form of gogo
RDbushi 2 years ago
Comment removed
cozkntt 2 years ago
@rtfmplz Agree!
thepianoguy77 1 year ago
Some of them don't work and the ones that work like you said need modification and bjj has adapted many judo moves to no gi and you know its true.
Bjjownsu10 3 years ago
Though, I have to admit this type of judo is similar to Bjj.
Bjjownsu10 3 years ago
Maybe because BJJ copied Judo?
maxbigwood 2 years ago 2
BJJ was derived from original Japanese Jiu Jitsu.
So was Judo. Japanese JJ is the eldest out of all of these martial arts.
callyjohnwell 2 years ago
Bjj was not derived from JJJ lol. It was made from Judo. Mitsuyo Maeda, who taught the gracies judo, never learned jiu jitsu
maxbigwood 2 years ago
Judo is basically Old school jiu jitsu with rules and sparring
Jade3liphant 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I am sick and tired of judokas talking trash. Kosen Judo, Kodokan judo whatever, its judo no matter what. Judo comes from Jiu jitsu, so if Bjj comes from judo it gives Brazilians the right to call their art Brazilian jiu jitsu because technically judo is jiu jitsu. And I know for a fact that not all submissions known to man exist in Kosen judo. Bjj is a refined, more effective, and revolutionized art than Kosen Judo. So, Judokas don't be jelous of Bjj, instead educate and learn the refined art.
Bjjownsu10 3 years ago
And, on the flip side of the coin, BJJ practitioners could benefit from learning and educating themselves in Judo. It goes both ways, my friend.
kylesteinhauser 3 years ago 4
You are right it would benefit us in gi grappling. No gi most judo throws don't work.
Bjjownsu10 3 years ago
Those throws just need modification, that's all. Of course a throw that primarily uses the grip on the gi isn't going to work no gi, but neither are sleeve chokes or lapel chokes if you want to use a ground example. Everything just needs to be modified to suit the situation. There are kids in wrestling tournaments pulling off seoi-nages and uchimatas, traditionally very gi oriented throws without the benefit of the gi. It is not viable to say these throws don't work.
kylesteinhauser 3 years ago 2
in the martial arts, when you learn certain technique it does not mean you can't "modify" the technique but to be able to adapt to the situation just like the example you gave us, on the the other hand I could see someone using their opponents collar from their shirt and choking them out- it's just an idea thats all- remember techniques are about creativity and are not static but dynamic!
march93pena 2 years ago
3:05 to 3:12 was a crazy choke.
Lad22nd 3 years ago
i ve rolled with a lot of judo guys,hell i used to be one,but not one was as technical as this guys in the vid.i compited in bjj tournaments and i can say the guys from this vid have a different style one the ground,very effective nonetheless,but very different in set ups.
spanishplayer23 3 years ago
You're comparing post-1925 "sport" judo with the newaza of traditional judo shown in the video. Newaza judokas (nicknamed "Kosen judokas") have been specialists in newaza since the 1800s.
They are not judokas to mess with when on the ground. They have the techniques and flexibility of BJJ-players, plus the gorilla-strength and balance only judo can develop.
BloodofPatriots 3 years ago
didn t know that,thanx 4 the info
spanishplayer23 3 years ago
Rubber guard is not new. If by "Kosen" you mean judo Newaza then you are correct. Kosen means university or techincal school, not a style. They just focus on Newaza.
KatameDo 3 years ago
Yes, BJJ is Kosen judo except BJJ had eventually been developed for no-gi aswell, a very important change.
Philosophical101 3 years ago
Only important if you plan to strip down to your underwear before fighting.
BloodofPatriots 3 years ago
haha
spanishplayer23 3 years ago
They may have been re-discovered. Not invented. What classical text books of "Kosen" Judo are you referring to? Author and year published please.
KatameDo 3 years ago
What about the rubber guard, did that belong to Kosen judo aswell or was it just re-discovered? or is it new?
Philosophical101 3 years ago
Gogoplata=Kagato Jime
KatameDo 3 years ago
Yes, kagato jime exists in kosen judo but i'm talking about a new, particular variation.
Raging5 3 years ago
Yes, the gracies took the Kosen judo techniques and called it jiu jitsu, they should get credit for introducing it to the world, but they should NOT have named it "Gracie jiu jitsu", just because the Gracies lied does not mean people who study Kosen judo/BJJ shouldn't be able to develop new techniques (the gracies DID NOT invent anything new), there are others who have though, like Submissions101, 10th planet jiu jitsu, and BJ penn, i was never referring that the gracies invented anything new.
Raging5 3 years ago
The Gracies didn't learn Kosen judo. Kosen judo began during the 1920s while Meada (Gracie's teacher) had already left japan by 1904 to spread judo and never came back. Meada came to Brazil in 1916 and taught Carlos Gracie regular judo. Meada is credited as the father of Brazilian judo not jujitsu. The Gracies change judo to fit thier ideals and simply kept the term jujitsu to seperate itself from judo. BJJ came from judo but it is now a seperate style.
judofan 3 years ago
Newaza judo has been practiced in the Kosen universities of Japan since the late 1800s. Sport judo with emphasis on throws did not arise until Kano's rule change in 1925. "Regular" judo, as you call it, is traditional judo which is a complete martial science with throws, groundfighting, blocks and 20+ strikes.
BJJ is not a separate style at all. It's nothing more than newaza-obsessed "Kano-jujitsu", also known as Newaza Judo (or Kosen Judo). The Gracies are frauds.
BloodofPatriots 3 years ago
Kosen did not begin in the 1800s. Kosen began in the 1920s. The word kosen tranlates as technical school or special university. Folks went to kosen schools to learn about science and engineering not ground fighting. Kosen judo is just regular judo as practiced by the kosen student body. Its like wresting in Iowa. People call it Iowa wrestling but it's just regular wrestling as practice by the Iowa Hawkeyes.
judofan 3 years ago
Kosen schools adopted Judo as an athletic program not long after the 1886 Tokyo police challenge. They focused so much on newaza that Kano himself organized the first "Kosen Taikai" in 1914. By the early 1920s, the success of Kosen judokas caused other judokas to place more emphasis on newaza leading to a decline in tachiwaza. So in 1925, Kano added new anti-newaza rules to regular judo tournaments, but left the Kosen tournaments alone. The emphasis is different, but, yes, it's traditional judo.
BloodofPatriots 3 years ago
BloodofPatriots your 1st paragraph shows you know about martial arts. The 2nd contradicts this! experts in Judo and Bjj (such as Dave Camarillo) agree the style of grappling developed in Brazil is, in it current form, far more technically detailed than the kodokan style of newaza. Bjj practitioners have proven this time and again by dominating judoka on the ground in competition.
Your ignorant conservative attitude is exactly that which has allowed judo to become inferior on the ground.
JohnColt 3 years ago
Keep drinking that Gracie kool-aid.
BloodofPatriots 3 years ago
You are ENTIRELY INCORRECT. The camarillo's are NOT historical authorities of ANY KIND on grappling whatsoever. To say that grappling was developed in Brazil is the most asinine and uneducated comment on youtube. Wrestling is the oldest activity in the world and has been practiced in every country. It has existed for over 4000 years in China. Jujutsu (spelled properly) STILL EXISTS IN JAPAN. Jujutsu is a JAPANESE MARTIAL ART -- NOT BRAZILIAN. When are you dumb fucks going to realize that?
rtfmplz 3 years ago
1) I said "the style of grappling developed in Brazil" ie. BJJ. I am well aware of its history and I am not suggesting that Brazil is the origin of all grappling...
JohnColt 3 years ago
Incorrect. The Brazilians where taught this by Medea, a Japanese judo player who was the Kodokans groundwork master..who also fought no hold barred fights alover the world years before the Gracie's did the same thing.
Gracie jujitsu and BJJ are 2 different things and even the Gracie's say that and dislike being called BJJ..
BJJ is competition orientated like Judo with no striking, Gracie is a street self defense system with Lotta stand up stuff BJJ doesn't have..
Please educated yourself
Get0wned09 3 years ago
OK.... exactly which part of my comment are you disagreeing with??
JohnColt 3 years ago
2)BJJ is a subspecies of pre ww2 Judo, however to suggest that it is nothing more than kosen Judo is wrong. The technical differences are subtle yet significant. Moreover there are 2 major differences: the Gracies' interest in inter-style fighting, especially against striking opponents (Kosen Judo has no such application) and the points system of their sport which emphasizes a more technical style of grappling. Show me a Kosen champ submitting a bjj champ and I'll eat my words!...
JohnColt 3 years ago
@JohnColtt what about Kimura??
thepianoguy77 1 year ago
3) As for the claim that the Gracies are frauds, I know a lot of fuck-wits think arm-bars and triangles were invented in Brazil, I've never heard a Gracie say that; they are perfectly open about the history of their style...
JohnColt 3 years ago
4)The fraudulent martial artists think they can knock you out without touching you...but they only demonstrate on their own students. The Gracies have always proven themselves in the most reliable way there is: challenge fights against every style. In this arena as well as in pure grappling they have proved themselves time and again.
The Camarillos may not be "historical figures" but they are current top-level experts on the subject and are expert in Judo AND bjj... I suspect you are not...
JohnColt 3 years ago
5)By the way, the spelling of JuJutsu is not set in stone. It's Japanese and the pronunciation is debatable. There is no "proper" spelling in English, only conventional spelling. It's called transliteration.
I should add that I do not like the air of commercialism surrounding BJJ, and I'm actually more interested in Judo. Cheers.
JohnColt 3 years ago
Very well put. Even Grand Master Helio Gracie states in several interviews that he learned Judo from his brother and that he adapted it to create his own style (Gracie Jiu-Jitsu). The difference between his style and judo is in the stand up self defense curriculum which is completely different than the Kodokan's and his defensive strategy from the bottom which cannot be found in any judo style.
jujutsu9 3 years ago 2
Bjj derived from Kosen Judo -- not Kodokan Judo. That's why Helio Gracie lies to everyone about the true history of his grappling education. He obviously couldn't tell people the truth that what he had learned was what EVERYONE ELSE WAS ALREADY DOING now could he. Hell, he'd lose business right? So he obviously had to lie to promote himself. The same way Whore-ian (Rorian Gracie) lied to everyone about the UFC and how the GRACIE FAMILY SET THE WHOLE THING UP! That's nothing but FRAUD!
rtfmplz 3 years ago
yep u no
Get0wned09 3 years ago
Raging 5. Just a quick glance at your list and at least 6 of those techniques I know for a fact are not GJJ/BJJ inventions. They are all in old Judo books. Good try though.
KatameDo 3 years ago
You must be confusing the techniques i named with ones that have already been invented because the ones i just named are not from any classical textbooks of Kosen judo, the ones i just named are newly invented submissions most of them were INFACT DEVELOPED by the Submissions101 team and Eddie bravo's 10th planet jiu jitsu, you won't find them in Kosen judo.
Raging5 3 years ago