I agree with him about the commodification of sex and the objectification of women for that purpose, but I think he goes off the rails when he argues that porn is about exploitation across the board. His brush is far too broad. At bottom it's just sex on film, people. The specific content determines whether it's exploitative or not. And some people, men and women, are into exploitation and humiliation. Who am I or Jensen to tell them that what gets them off is wrong?
He's a very courageous man. As a woman I applaud him. I think both men and women should together be challenging the degradation of all women which is the basis of porn, just as both whites and blacks challenged black slavery. Porn is a human rights issue: one sector of society getting its kicks from the ritual abuse of another sector.
Robert Jensen is an ally and as a woman I appreciate his work. I don't necissarily agree with everything that he says but I think he raises a lot of valid points and holds his own sex accountable. He came to one of my classes and was very good at creating a space where the focus was education and discussion, not bickering. I think one of the best things he said was that feminism isn't about blaming men, but rather believing men are better than what society presents. <3 Men and <3 Jensen.
Wytchfinde, "god forbid men are attracted to women".
God forbid the degragation, humiliation, harm, abuse, violence against them. God forbid the men who use thier penises as weapons. God forbid human beings hurting other human beings for the sake of profit.
@dens4 Jensen really isn't that much of a hero, since he does actually admit in his books, that he is aroused by sexual violence and the sexual torture of women in pornography.
Fellow males, let's face it. Exposure to pornography makes you think women are only for sex. Men who watch pornography cannot treat women the same way they would treat a man because of the thoughts of sex. Trust me, I'm no saint myself because before I decided to try and change my ways I thought the same way about women.
Yeah, the Gods forbid men are attracted to women sexually. I'm sick of being demonized by it, so should you.
Stop telling other what to do with their private lives. You're as bad as the fundamentalists Christians who have dirty laundry and yet rail against erotica in public.
I'm not telling you what to do what their private life, I'm saying pornography gives you a different attitude towards women. Also, I'm not completely free of perversions myself, I'm still fighting temptation. I really don't care what you do with your life but you must realize how it affects you. Women are equals and can do plenty of more things than sex, they have their own lives which don't revolve around sex, just like with men.
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Anyone from Robert Jensen to Joe Biden are sellouts towards men. They would probably send their own fathers up the river in order to court women's favor in order to advance their agendas and legal and political power.
I say fire them and let them get mop jobs. That's all they are good for.
Clearly you don't understand what Feminazi means. I don't expect it from a misandrist bitch like you. Feminazi Is not a woman that belongs to the Nazi party, feminazi is someone that has Nazi-like characteristics, mainly the use of DEMAGOGUERY and CENSORSHIP. A feminazi wants to HAVE THE CAKE AND IT TOO. etc, the " Hyde Amendment". men can't get pregnant, so they should just shut up about abortion,, that's okt,but the feminazi STILL wants the TAXPAYER MONEY of men to pay for wyminz only " choice
It's really very interesting to see people's reactions to the idea that their is something wrong with the culture we've been growing up in, which is, sadly, a rape culture that hates women. I'm very supportive of Jensen's work and thank him for what he's putting out there. Also, here's something funny; people keep using the term "Feminazi" which really is ridiculous, because of course, wanting to be treated equally is EXACTLY like invading Poland. lol
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Bullshit. This culture worships women---upper class white women in particular. "rape culture that hates women" is a rationalization to demonize and castigate men, from making them look like idiots and lecherous on TV to valuing their lives, sexuality, and contributions less than women.
@blissfulbhajan The demonisation of a group, the story of feminism has long since left the area of equality. It has now become a institution of making mountains out of mole hills... Feminism tries to reduce masculinity every day and it is greatly damaging them, is trying to get women to not be ashamed of their feminimity going to happen by making men be ashamed of their maschulinity?
@Eclypsia13 So I have a few questions; why does femininity need to complement masculinity? Its not as if women were some second thought like if you decorating your living room and feel that you should get orange throw pillows to complement the blue sofa. If you actually read into it many men feel that they are forced into an idea of masculinity and become people that they dont want to be.
@Eclypsia13 Frankly youre argument that as women we need to nurture masculinity I find is rather archaic. I as a woman dont need to baby a grown man and hope he does the right thing.
@blissfulbhajan You assume I said to nurture maschulinity, I said nothing of the sort.... I said there is no need to try and undermine it. Significant difference if women keep undermining maschulinity, how are women any better than men undermining femininity?
@Eclypsia13 I looked at your page and you had a blandinthebasement as a favorite video which spoke of all the issues i mentioned. I can't see a real feminist honestly liking anything she says- and jensen never says we should undermine masculinity but question what it actually is, just as a woman can still be a woman without following all the 'rules' of femininity so why can't a man do the same?
@blissfulbhajan Because women have the choice not to follow the rules of feminity, men are having the change in maschulinity forced down their throats. What was that about freedom of choice again?
@blissfulbhajan If I was going to choose to listen to any spokesperson about feminism it would be Dr. William Farrel, because unlike alot of people on the feminist side, he cares for equality not degregation and double standards.
@Eclypsia13 Your argument that abortion is somehow largely supported by the feminist community as the whoops! Plan b! is also baseless. If you really look at great present day feminists like Ariel Levy or bell hooks they support women thinking for themselves and evaluate the choices they make in their lives, this includes the emotional aspect you mentioned.
@Eclypsia13 Also what exactly is just discrimination because the word just infers that there is justice where as the first definition for discrimination is unfair treatment of one person or group, usually because of prejudice about race, ethnicity, age, religion, or gender.
@Eclypsia13 Only the third definition of the word states the ability to notice subtle differences but I think a person would need to actually take a good look at something like feminism to make that judgment call. Finally, I sincerely think that the type of feminism that Jensen talks about doesnt make mountains out of mole hills, it just reveals the mountains for what they are. But many people cant see the forest for the trees.
@blissfulbhajan Even if I did your being extremely hypocritical in saying that women have no need to nurture maschulinity, but demand that men nurture femininity. I am not a feminist, I do not care for the womens rights agenda on its own, I am a human rights activist, and care solely that all humans are equals, people demanding hugs while holding a knife is not equal
@Eclypsia13 I never said that men need to femininity. If anything people need to find themselves. It is NOT possible for a person to be a human rights activist without being a feminist. You cannot ignore the system of privilege that favors males just like you cannot ignore the system of privilege favoring whites that Martin Luther King Jr fought against.
@blissfulbhajan I think I can be very much a human rights activist without being a feminist, especially when feminism isnt a coperative outlook of equality. The intentions of true feminists are good and work for equal rights, but that is rarely the case, now its poo finging and double standards. Want to talk about equality between the sexes? I don't see feminists talking about male homeless rates, or male suicide rates or work place death rates
@Eclypsia13 I'm going to go back to my original statement, please read something of Ariel levy's or bell hooks. Everything you're talking about with double standards can be addressed, I can't change your opinion or anyone else's just hope people can educate themselves
@blissfulbhajan Double standards are never validated Its either your equal/fighting for equality, or your not equal/fighting for superiority. You cannot come to me and justify something that men are wrong for but women are ok to do and try to convince me that it is right. That is sexism, isnt that what feminism is fighting against?
@Eclypsia13 again i never said double standards are the way to go just that your questions about this illusion of feminism's double standards could be answered there. Equality is the way to go but it seems that both sides of the playing field have dug themselves so deep in the ground that neither can hear what the other one is saying in their own ditch
@blissfulbhajan It always comes with a feminine bias, thats not a equal way of thinking, thats not a humanitarian way of thinking, much like how black supremacy is not humanitarian thinking. Because it works against the philosophy of being equal and instead works on a "get a leg up over the opposition" stance instead.
@blissfulbhajan Check out manwomanmyth's channel. You can watchi his documentaries about feminism in the right order on his website. They're very entertaining and the ideas are certainly not in the mainstream.
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and to the shithead, ElFrankus, that categorized me as an abuser using typical Stalinist-style demagoguery used by feminazis. I've never laid a finger to a woman in my life and I never will. It just happens that I just because I have a dissenting opinion, I'm not a sheep that have been brainwashed by Feminazi Indoctrination, so that makes me " the bad guy". You get threatened by the freedom of thought of others. FUCK YOU, and FUCK YOUR FEMINAZI CULT.
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Robert Jensen is an ultra-leftist Marxist-feminazi-ass-kissing-mangina piece of shit. NOTE: a man that stays at home cleaning,taking care of kids, is still a MAN. A man that likes to play with dolls, he is STILL A MAN. A man that cries because his dog dies, STILL a man. This doesn't emasculate a man. What is NOT a man is this piece of shit Jensen that demonizes his own sex, by infantilizing women in a partenalistic matter and stripping them of all accountablity for their own actions.
Robert Jensen is brilliant articulate and honest- further his critique of this culture is magnificent . Thank you so much for your vital work Robert and thank you for standing in solidarity with women and being willing to speak tuth to patriarchy
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This mangina is preaching the " Church of Victimology",which is central in Feminazi ideology. Now, there is no need for me to waste bandwith with an estrogen bollock like you, perpetuaring BITCHARCHY. That's what we have in U.S.A, "BITCHARCHY",feminazi bitches and self-hating manginas such as Jensen spreading LIES, fabricating BULLSHIT STATISTICS, that have been debunked one afte the other, such as " wage gap myth". There is no patriarchy,that is Saudi Arabia and the Taliban, not American men.
Wow. You've done an excellent job emphasizing Mr. Jensen's points.. I'm not sure if you're doing that intentionally by acting like a caricature of the perverse version of masculinity he is speaking out against, or if you really are that ignorant. Either way, good job.
anyone notice how for this video - the volume sucks ; very very low - even the others from this guy -----i cant help but wonder if it was a booty shakin chick dancng to music - how overwhelmingly loud the music would be hmm??
LOL, feminazi logic.most illegal aliens in the U.S are men that break their backs being exploited, getting paid like 10 dollars a day,so next time you go to the supermarket to buy grapes or veggies,you contributed to the exploitation of these guys. On the other hand,there are women that can make over a thousand dollars in less than an hour selling sex in one form or the other. Yeah, i tell you what,why don't we send allt he sex workers to pick up fruits in the fields to make you feel better?
well informed? LOL, this idiot is a brainwashed fool by feminazi ideology. and no, he is NOT a man. Anyone that considers himself of the male gender, be a heterosexual man, homosexual man,or transexual man, DOES NOT believe in bullshit like "21 century patriarchy" and " male privilege" in the U.S and Canada. pornography is a product of " female liberation", nobody puts a gun to these actresses head, but ofcourse,is always the " menz fault". womyn are good, menz are bad. that's feminazi dogma
no actually most women who go into porn did it because they felt it was their only place to turn to get money to survive. most women that leave porn leave it completely mentally messed up and with, guess what, sometimes stds
hmmm so what makes a "man"? someone who follows society's standards of being a "man" like a little bitch!!! or someone who follows no man and follows his true rightful heart? why is it cause he is speaking for women that he is wrong?? if he was saying degrading things that would make him a man? get the fuck outta here - pick up a history book and learn what real men did - today's men is a joke!
hmmmm....why is he not well informed?? oh pray tell.....because it seems to me that men who are homophobic - when the term homosexualit (Inor heterosexuality) did not even exist till the last 100 years that today's man is following a made up belief about something they do not really understand ---now that is the opposite of being well informed - but for a man like this to learn to accept to realize there is more out there other than himself - well not only is he well in formed he's a man!
wow ofcourse men ar now feeling challenged - imagine a man that actually does not want to put down women - how frightening - if u ask me - men are the weaker sex....they are afraid of everything ....whatever is not white, tall, buff, has a penis, and has a job in corporate - that's scary as well as silly
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Terms such as "anti-sexist porn" or "anti-degrading porn" are total BS because "sexist" or "degrading" are totally subjective, especially in the realm of paid pornographic content.
Probably not an exaggeration to say it's like comparing a mountain to a mole-hill.
Now consider the selfishness of the feminist movement in their fraud "anti-pornography movement" which is nothing but CONTROLLED OPPOSITION claiming that only women are exploited by porn, and they compound men's addiction anguish by giving them a GUILT COMPLEX because of all this supposed female-only "abuse and degradation".
The point is not to make men feel guilty. It is to make them aware of their privilege as men (not their fault, it is the result of unfavor advantages bestowed to men by social insititutions and the U.S. 's misogynistic history), and have them be advocates for gender equality rather than continue to buy into a system that harms men and women. It is fact empowering men by saying, here is what is going on here. And Jenson's claim is that men are harmed by porn, so i don't get why you dont agree.
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"It is to make them aware of their privilege as men . . ."
Translation: disempower them even more than they already are, give them NO reproductive rights, and give license to women while making men more burdened by a Western culture that is a matriarchy under the trappings of patriarchy.
I am not sure why you want to quanify this so much, but all the victims of pornography are bad. Lets stop men from buying it and women from staring in it, through education and support. And you already said we disagree on why it is harmful to men, so we already have a road block there.
Women in their 20s out-earn or earn the same as men. Women outnumber men in third level institutions by 10% which will feed into the labour market which will feed into wage difference. What have you to say about that? Nothing.
No, women earn substantially less then men in higher level administrative postions and are underrepresented based on education level and socio-economic status in top legal, medical, and business positions. Women earn more then men only in already lower paying jobs women are more likely to occupy, like the service industry. You really want me to get you all the stats I will. Outnumbering men in select areas does not translate into higher wages and is completely beside the point.
"According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' (BLS) 2004 wage data for full-time wage and salary workers aged 16 and older, women earned on average 80.4 percent of men's weekly median earnings. In virtually every occupation listed, men earned a higher median wage than women, regardless of job title." Look that up. Or how about you just google "women earn less then men" and you will find about 100,000 independant articles and studies in the first 5 minutes.
If it was snuff films where real-life women were raped and not paid and called a whore when she is not a whore, then I would agree with you 100%
Snuff films are not legal as you know, and I do not think they should be.
But in the case of commercial mainstream porn... NO WAY. You are just trying to create multiple anti-male anti-Patriarchy argument to feed your man hatred which feeds your feminism.
I think that they are distinct and innately different and innately un-equal, and we should not go against the tidal wave on this for what purpose? Anarchism? Breaking down society into something simpler and more primitive? No. I don't believe in any of that.
"I would rather diminish the demand for porn and educate people"
That will never happen. Supply creates demand. We are talking primal, evolutionary urges here.
If you really want porn to diminish, ban it outright.
That's the differnece between us. Sexuality is innate, but I do not think there is anything innate or primal about this specific brand of sexuality, with its emphasis on violence and domination. We are just going to have to agreee to disagree on that one because its very hard to prove wither way.
No it's not. Porn is a symptom of a Freemasonic Constitution and System of Government; and a feminist culture.
"larger social issues we have about gender and how men and women are expected to behave."
I'm not out to throw a ratchet into male and females behaviour are like you are as a feminist are, so this does not apply to me. I believe in men as men and women as women and complementary existence. Which you do not.
I believe in complex and varied human beings whose behavior, dreams, desires, etc are not determined solely, or even in large part, by their gender. I have plenty of research, testimony, and theory to make this a legitimate belief. I think men and women are sold short by society casting them into what is ultimately rigid and arbitrary roles.
"I think men and women are sold short by society casting them into what is ultimately rigid and arbitrary roles."
Total non-belief in biological determinism. And in distinct sexual roles between men and women, even if they are beneficial practical or harmonious. That said, distinct roles between the sexes *will* be accepted if women in all of those roles are dominant/feminist. It is the traditional Patriarchal roles *only* which are under the rain of fire. Yes this is standard feminism.
No, nobody needs to dominant anybody. Why can't you beleive what I am saying. I don't want a matriarchy. I don't want to oppress men. I merely want no one to oppress anyone else. I don't think there is anything biological or inherent about the way we structure male/female relations, yes. There is some biology, but there is alot of socialization as well. Men are not inherently violent and domineering and women are not inherently submissive with "whore" like tendencies as you seem to think.
"making policy and law to ban porn is a slippery slope."
No it's not. Banning porn is banning porn.
But even if it were a "slippery slope" to a less sexually anarchic regime (which gives you shivers), then so be it.
Don't claim to be "anti-porn" if you won't actually ban it completely; it's false advertising above everything else, though feminism is well used to that.
As I said it's just more intellectual dishonesty and as I said on my blog, language abuse.
If you recall, at the beginning of this debate I never once said i was anit-porn. That's a label that you placed on me. My assertion has always been that I am against racist and sexist porn period. If that doesn't make me anti-porn then fine.
Actually the goal in mainstream porn is not to dominate. There is no master/slave relationship in most mainstream hetero intercourse porn. You are a woman therefore you feel no desire to look at such scenes, but I can tell you that that is the truth.
You have engaging sex and energetic sex. That's about it. There's no distinct master/slave dichotomy there4 it's not "domination of women"
Plus the female porn star is getting paid millions (or in very many cases is). Your case is very weak.
A Master/slave scenario does not need to exist in order for you to classify it as dominating. It is dominating when someone is clearly in control of the sex act and is violent or excessively rough with the partner. This could be verbal abuse, physical hitting, causing the other person pain intentionally and lots of other stuff.
No, it should not qualify as acceptable porn, and I do not know of any main stream feminist who has made that claim, but I can only speak for myself. I don't think its accpetable.
It doesn't mean they don't care or don't think its bad. It is just not their area of interest or focus. I can't think of very many mainstream feminists whom have explicitely stated they are against bridal sales in the various tribes of Papua New Guinea? But if presented with the question, I am sure many would say they are opposed to it.
"The supreme court rejected on states anti-porn law because it would have outlawed making movies similar in content to american beauty and romeo and juliet."
No they rejected it because the USA was established by Freemasons (they wrote the Constitution) who in general endorse moral libertarianism/anarchism.
Also established feminist morality/sexuality firmly in the US.
A few sex scenes in Hollywood flicks, you really think "porn is free speech" is here because of that?
Ok, read the actual Supreme Court decision and thats what the Justice opinions actually state. i am afraid I win the evidenciary side of this argument.
"Good, you can support pornography that depicts men and women as equals"
Seeing as "equality" "equals" through the fem translation machine usually means "female domination" does this mean that elelsteev should support femdom only?
That is my main problem with "anti-porn feminists". They are not anti-porn!! They add provisos and opt-outs.
I am anti-porn when it comes to what I define as porn (violent, racist, misogynistic and/or misandric). However, making policy and law to ban porn is a slippery slope. I would rather diminish the demand for porn and educate people on what their relationship to porn and media in general is. Porn is a symptom of larger social issues we have about gender and how men and women are expected to behave. Banning porn will not solve these.
And he's wrong about living in a Patriarchy. We are living in a Matriarchal society which is gradually consolidating its Matriarchy-ness on different levels.
So let's throw that "Patriarchy" crap out the window let's now. Don't introduce falsehoods to the debate, Robert!
Criticising porn is not "being-self-critical" [boy does this Eunuch hate himself or what], it is criticising a feminist industry resultant of a Freemasonic legal code (Constitution, Supreme Court, porn is free speech).
He is being self critical in his book because his talks about his relationship with porn and how he thinks it taught him untrue and negative things about women and how it shaped his understanding of what it means to be a "real man", a view that was challenged when he learned about feminism and became an advocate.
It is shown that when women are in explicit master/slave degradation of men a la femdom, women/feminists have NOTHING to say. No negative thesis or critique to be found in all of Women's Studies throughout the World. So therefore it has nothing to do with equality, or degrading of people, but simply to do with hating men.
BECAUSE
Something matters when men do it [scapegoat], it does not when women [immune to criticism]
Ok, you keep mentioning femdom. I agree that's bad too! We can't solve the female objectification issue by objectifying men. But the reason this isn't the major focus of people studying porn nor of some feminists is that 1.- Overwhelmingly the porn industry depicts one kind of sex, men dominating women. 2. These images are being produced within a society where there are also serious sexual and domestic violence issues against women and demonstrated inequality in many realms.
I especially dislike your second point, as it provides a subtle approval and justification for this kind of openly misandric, openly master/slave depictions with men being treated far worse than women ever are, even in "hetero master/slave" analogues.
Name me one Women's Studies thesis or paper against femdom as sexist and oppressive and something feminism should get up in arms about, because they are all for equality don't you know.
But I am not surprised by your subtle approval of the femdom genre. After all, femdom appears for all intents and purposes to be the eroticisation of feminist attitudes/objectives towards men.
See my blog - antipornmasculinist blogspot com - for more on this.
Also the quantity and proportion of violent and sexist porn should not matter to someone who is truly opposed to those things, which you are NOT.
I am not approving of FEMDOM!!!! I just said that? You are going to argue with me on something that is explicitely my own opinion? And I don't understand your other point. I shouldn't be concerned with violent porn if I am truly opposed to it? That makes no sense.
I am sure I can. I will have to look obviously. Let me give you an analogy. Few anti-racist activists are concerned with anit-white racist. It exists, and it is just as repugnant as other forms of racism, but it does not have the kind of historical, institutional, legal or social power and ubiquitousness that say, anti-black racism has and had in this country. Therefore, less is written about it and it is discussed less. It is the same with anti-male porn and misandry.
No, racism and sexism are not the same. What applies to does not applies to the other. I am not going to try to connect the two into a nice all-in-one PC package like leftists, feminists and Marxists do.
There are different dynamics completely to sexism and racism.
It's like talking about how the Nazis tagged Jews with the Star of Moloch but now they have the State of Israel and it will never happen again. Comparing that with feminists persecuting men today in the Western Matriarchy ...
Just because the Jews rose up and triumphed against their racial oppressors ... (who did not kill 6 million of them by the way - that's a different story don't call me a Holocaust denier that's a Pavolvian response and you as a leftist should know that questioning programmed responses is oh-so-good)
.. Just as they triumphed we too will against our sexual oppressors women and feminists in the Matriarchy...
No the sequence of events will be completely different and non-analogous.
Are you actually suggesting that men have been historically oppressed by women? Give me the law saying men can't vote. Or men making 70 cents to the women's dollar. Or male rape victims being denied trials and police investigations by female judges and officers. Or being denied property rights by powerful elected women. Or made up male specific diseases like "hysteria"! It a history of female oppression.
The Matriarchy has not been fully formed yet. But judging by past Matriarchies and the rhetoric of would-be Matriarch rulers like yourself, yes men would be denied the right to voting and citizenship.
There's a "minicountry" in the Czech Republic that has that already, check it out.
I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about the actual history of the United States, not some futuristic imaginary world where women might do something in a "would be" Matriarchy.
That's fine. But its an apt analogy none the less. There has not been a legal, powerful system of opporession against men pertetuated by women in this country. It has been a system oppressive of women. That's why most feminists are concern with the oppression of women, and as a subset of that, porn they feel contributes to that system.
The feminist critique, which Jensen said "exploded" the religious-vs-liberal paradigm of the debate (did it really?) by saying "porn is the exploitation of women in a male dominated Patriarchal society with porn eroticising that oppression".
This critique of porn is woefully - selfishly - narrow and incomplete.
And it requires a lot of logical jumps to say that sexual intercourse on camera "is the eroticisation of male Patriarchal oppression"
BUT the question is, for Eunuch Jensen and all ...
But the whole point is that it is not just sexual intercourse on screen. He describes what he is talking about in the book more clearly. It is women literally gagging and throwing up after having forceful oral sex. Its the faces and angles showing them in what looks like pain. Its the name calling "slut" "bitch" "whore". its the domination and submission. Why is this portrayal of sex so prominent? All sex( I would even say most sex) isn't like this so why is this the dominant image in porn?
The purpose of pornography is to arouse, that is why these verbalisations etc are put into sex scenes. It makes it more exciting.
Even if she is called a slut or a bitch - I mean she is getting penetrated by one or many anonymous men being filmed for millions of people, it's not like they are inaccurate descriptors - there is STILL no DISTINCT master/slave depiction
And she is still getting paid as much as a top neurosurgeon.
So insulting verbalizations make it more exciting? Why? Why is this the scenario the construct in the first place? The character in the porn might be a slut or a bitch, but why? Why are so many women in porn characterized that way? Why do the men have to demonstrate their power over them by calling them names and causing the actual actresses pain? What message is this sending to the viewer about sex, and how men and women are supposed to behave around one another?
The fact that she IS a slut might have something to do with it.
Ask the woman on set if she thinks she's a whore when she strips naked, has multiple guys penetrate her, and films the whole thing for millions to watch and pay for on the Internet.
She will say yes. It's a little bit of honesty coming from the black heart of a feminist porn artist.
I am sick of trying to tell you that I am not anti-male, so beleive whatever you want. Your the one that called me a cunt at the beginning, but I didn't call you anti-woman did I? And I would have been more justified in that opinion. The feminism I bleieve in is liberating for everyone. Aslo, you are not ansering my question. Why is this type of porn the majority of what is produced? What is arousing about women gagging and pain and why are men choosing to watch it?
Outside of "sexual exploitation" (which is rather ill defined and often contradictory), women in porn do exploit their labour (if you could call it labour) and bodies. Just as anyone in any line of work does. However they do this entirely normal form of exploitation WILLINGLY.
For men involved being exploited via porn addiction it is not necessarily "willing" because you are dealing with addiction and as you know this rewires neural circuits. The dopamingeric addiction cycle takes over.
This is not a competition of "who is exploited more" - and whole problem would be solve with a general pornography ban - but it is important to step back from gynocentric analyses of the situation and see the bigger picture.
I go by what I can prove. I can prove conventional labour exploitation and desire exploitation with addiction.
I cannot prove "exploitation/degradation" on behalf of the well-paid willing female porn performer as the issue is highly psychological, subjective and nuanced.
So I don't venture into that too readily - but the fact that she's a willing paid participant speaks alot to me. It also speaks alot that more female porn artists do not categorically regret their "career" choice in latr yrs
We don't necessarily have to ask women in the porn industry how they feel or what they experience to ascertain whether the pron Jenson is concerned about is exploitive and degrading. We can merely look at the content and the messages being sent about men, women, and sexuality. If the common message (which it is is alot of main stream porn) is that all women are sluts desiring to be dominated, and a man's role is to dominate (violently many times), we can define that as degrading and misogynistic
I am not being gynocentric, although I am concerned about women as an historically discriminated against and exploited group, especially in areas where men where men were given systemic advantages. Sex and the sex industry have historically been misogynisitic, as well as racist and unfavorable to children. This is true in many countries. Like I said, I would be fine banning pornography if by porn, we mean violent and exploitive erotica, but again, I do not want massive state censorship.
"I am not being gynocentric, although I am concerned about women as an historically discriminated against and exploited group"
Okay but look at the particulars of EACH SITUATION, and don't be overwhelmed (and overwhelm others) by the female side of the story only.
If you are talking about childbirth or menstruation, then your gynocentric selfishness in focus is perfectly fine, but with porn, it is not IMO. As well as being intellectually dishonest and lazy.
I ask him what I ask feminists, why doesn't he call for an all out ban of pornography then, and criminalisation of those producing it, including performers.
NO, can't do that! Because it conflicts with his feminist sexual anarchist beliefs.
The reason people like Jenson and I don't want to criminalize pornography is because they think it sets a dangerous precident. Various sexual expressions in art and the media historical have been labeled pornography and obscene and have been outlawed. The censorship encroached on alot of pieces intended to be thought provoking or artistic. The supreme court rejected on states anti-porn law because it would have outlawed making movies similar in content to american beauty and romeo and juliet.
Porn is a $13b a year industry, and that is the US alone. If women in porn can get only a small slice of that, I'm sure they are very grateful for the existence of the industry.
Also the idea that there are "multiple branches of feminism" is an oft-spun lie.
Feminism is a monolith and has core fundamental ideological positions which transcend all supposedly distinct "feminisms".
All feminism is pro-pornography because all feminism is pro-sexual anarchism.
And porn is sexually anarchic.
The "anti-porn" feminists exist to extract anti-male arguments out of the porn question. Anti-male sentiment is basically the fuel of the feminist movement.
Since you couldn't have read the feminists I mentioned and actually beelieve what you are saying, I am actually going to end this conversation. Not only do you have misinformed ideas about feminism because you choose not to inform yourself, you also have highly stereotyped and archiac views of women. When you actually gain the mental acuity to argue effectively, and realize you are living in this century, I would be happy to talk to you. Bye Bye.
"Very few women in porn are college educated statistically"
I'd say the numbers are going up all the time (does the porn industry produce regular stats, or are you just going off a 1980s feminist-group "survey").
Also I'd say involvement of college women in the other whore trades (prostitution and stripping) is increasing too. The way I see it, there's no valid explanation for this other than whore instinct.
Actually, the validation of it comes from the fact that the porn industry and stripping etc, is becoming more and more mainstream and acceptable for people of various classes to engage in. Thus, one would expect increasing participation rates amongst men and women, as is the case. However, most college educated women do not seek out a life in porn, and most porn stars are not college educated. This remains true, whether or not the numbers are increasing.
I guess a man calling a woman a "slut" on set is "sexist", but a man being tied up kicked and verbally abused (femdom) is not?
I very much see the femdom genre of porn as the eroticisation of feminism's core towards men - i.e. castration, abuse, disabling.
Obviously feminism has done this towards men in the context of literature, mass media and laws. Now it's getting fully expressed in a sexual pornographic context.
You seem to have a very odd interpretation of feminism. No feminist literature or legitimate feminist group I know of (and there are crazy people who claim to be feminists just like their are crazy assholes claiming to be christians) that seeks to "castrate" men. The goal is equality and opportunity, and freedom from the bonds that constrain men and women. One's gender should not determine who they are and what they are capable of, as it demonstrably does now! Same with with gender, race, etc.
95% of Feminism is Lies and Projection.. And you know it.
I don't care what you "define" feminism to be at this moment in this debate, I am interested in what it ACTUALLY is in theory and in practice as a whole.
That is what it actually is. Read feminist theorists like Susan Bordo, Eve Sedgewick, and Kimberle Crenshaw. Look up feminism on Wikipedia for God's sake! You will see what it actually is in theory and practice. Reasonable, intelligent people fighting for equality and human rights. And to be clear, their are many, many branches of feminism, including small radical factions. Some feminists even support pornography in its entirety, violent or not. Please do read further.
"That is what it actually is. Read feminist theorists like Susan Bordo, Eve Sedgewick, and Kimberle Crenshaw. Look up feminism on Wikipedia for God's sake!"
You think I haven't done that already you stupid fucking cunt?
I looked at the data as a whole and I made my conclusions.
Don't give me this "fighting for equality and human rights" crap.
Feminism is the Movement to Establish Matriarchy, end of.
Why the fuck do you think I am going to sit here and let you call me a cunt you asshole. I have been nothing but respectful. Why don't you grow the fuck up and have a real conversation instead of acting like a stuck-up whiny bastard.
Fine. Disregard the comment I just posted then. I will continue to talk to you if be respectful. I will make a few more responses and then I need to go to class. I can respnd again in the evening.
What a load of politically correct leftist feminist bullshit.
Feminism is total hypocritical horseshit. But their "arguments" against pornography I really do cringe. An overloading of hypocrisy.
They try to guilt-trip men about the fact that whores making millions on the Internet from them masturbating in their rooms. Leftist/feminist insanity.
Saying that he's against porn is antisemitic. Screw this Nazi!
tibbetts007 1 year ago
I think I'm in love ^^
DanceswithUtube 1 year ago
I agree with him about the commodification of sex and the objectification of women for that purpose, but I think he goes off the rails when he argues that porn is about exploitation across the board. His brush is far too broad. At bottom it's just sex on film, people. The specific content determines whether it's exploitative or not. And some people, men and women, are into exploitation and humiliation. Who am I or Jensen to tell them that what gets them off is wrong?
rooley 1 year ago
He's a very courageous man. As a woman I applaud him. I think both men and women should together be challenging the degradation of all women which is the basis of porn, just as both whites and blacks challenged black slavery. Porn is a human rights issue: one sector of society getting its kicks from the ritual abuse of another sector.
bundleHastings 1 year ago
Robert Jensen is an ally and as a woman I appreciate his work. I don't necissarily agree with everything that he says but I think he raises a lot of valid points and holds his own sex accountable. He came to one of my classes and was very good at creating a space where the focus was education and discussion, not bickering. I think one of the best things he said was that feminism isn't about blaming men, but rather believing men are better than what society presents. <3 Men and <3 Jensen.
elrobi33 1 year ago 2
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maybe this dude has good intentions deep down somewhere.....but there's no denying that he sounds like a soft faggot
theheatofthemoment 2 years ago
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this guy is a faggot
rogerwilsonwilson6 2 years ago
@rogerwilsonwilson6, you just make the argument stronger, you dimwit. With a retarded comment like that. You just look like an idiot.
You in denial, pal?
missingt00th 2 years ago 3
wow, feeling threatened quickly.
Meoli55 2 years ago
Wytchfinde, "god forbid men are attracted to women".
God forbid the degragation, humiliation, harm, abuse, violence against them. God forbid the men who use thier penises as weapons. God forbid human beings hurting other human beings for the sake of profit.
Jyett 2 years ago
Hear hear! Ignorant people think sex and porn are the same thing - how stupid!
bundleHastings 1 year ago
robert jensen is a hero and all should listen to what he has to say
dens4 2 years ago
@dens4 Jensen really isn't that much of a hero, since he does actually admit in his books, that he is aroused by sexual violence and the sexual torture of women in pornography.
AMeanderingSoul 2 months ago
Fellow males, let's face it. Exposure to pornography makes you think women are only for sex. Men who watch pornography cannot treat women the same way they would treat a man because of the thoughts of sex. Trust me, I'm no saint myself because before I decided to try and change my ways I thought the same way about women.
PoliticalFrustration 2 years ago
@PoliticalFrustration
Which makes you a hypocrite, PF.
Are you the one giving everyone thumbs down?
Wytchfinde 2 years ago
How does it make me a hypocrite? I'm not trying to judge the pornography watchers, just give them suggestions.
PoliticalFrustration 2 years ago
@PoliticalFrustration
Yeah, the Gods forbid men are attracted to women sexually. I'm sick of being demonized by it, so should you.
Stop telling other what to do with their private lives. You're as bad as the fundamentalists Christians who have dirty laundry and yet rail against erotica in public.
Wytchfinde 2 years ago
I'm not telling you what to do what their private life, I'm saying pornography gives you a different attitude towards women. Also, I'm not completely free of perversions myself, I'm still fighting temptation. I really don't care what you do with your life but you must realize how it affects you. Women are equals and can do plenty of more things than sex, they have their own lives which don't revolve around sex, just like with men.
PoliticalFrustration 2 years ago 2
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I gave everyone thumbs down because I disagree with them, I have a right to opinion.
PoliticalFrustration 2 years ago
this guy's a fuckin faggot!!! just look him up on wickipedia and you'll see for yourself that he's married to a fuckin dyke
mariopapa3 2 years ago
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Anyone from Robert Jensen to Joe Biden are sellouts towards men. They would probably send their own fathers up the river in order to court women's favor in order to advance their agendas and legal and political power.
I say fire them and let them get mop jobs. That's all they are good for.
Wytchfinde 2 years ago
Clearly you don't understand what Feminazi means. I don't expect it from a misandrist bitch like you. Feminazi Is not a woman that belongs to the Nazi party, feminazi is someone that has Nazi-like characteristics, mainly the use of DEMAGOGUERY and CENSORSHIP. A feminazi wants to HAVE THE CAKE AND IT TOO. etc, the " Hyde Amendment". men can't get pregnant, so they should just shut up about abortion,, that's okt,but the feminazi STILL wants the TAXPAYER MONEY of men to pay for wyminz only " choice
nabu2k7 2 years ago
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Women in the UK have used tax money to even get massage therapy.
I'm not kidding.
I wish I was making this shit up. No wonder men in the West are questioning all of this.
Wytchfinde 2 years ago
It's really very interesting to see people's reactions to the idea that their is something wrong with the culture we've been growing up in, which is, sadly, a rape culture that hates women. I'm very supportive of Jensen's work and thank him for what he's putting out there. Also, here's something funny; people keep using the term "Feminazi" which really is ridiculous, because of course, wanting to be treated equally is EXACTLY like invading Poland. lol
blissfulbhajan 2 years ago 25
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Bullshit. This culture worships women---upper class white women in particular. "rape culture that hates women" is a rationalization to demonize and castigate men, from making them look like idiots and lecherous on TV to valuing their lives, sexuality, and contributions less than women.
What planet do you live on? Seriously?
Wytchfinde 2 years ago
@blissfulbhajan The demonisation of a group, the story of feminism has long since left the area of equality. It has now become a institution of making mountains out of mole hills... Feminism tries to reduce masculinity every day and it is greatly damaging them, is trying to get women to not be ashamed of their feminimity going to happen by making men be ashamed of their maschulinity?
Eclypsia13 1 year ago
@Eclypsia13 Read Ariel Levys Female Chauvinist Pigs. Ive watched your video Rebranding Feminism I think itll answer some of your comments.
blissfulbhajan 1 year ago
@Eclypsia13 So I have a few questions; why does femininity need to complement masculinity? Its not as if women were some second thought like if you decorating your living room and feel that you should get orange throw pillows to complement the blue sofa. If you actually read into it many men feel that they are forced into an idea of masculinity and become people that they dont want to be.
blissfulbhajan 1 year ago
@Eclypsia13 Frankly youre argument that as women we need to nurture masculinity I find is rather archaic. I as a woman dont need to baby a grown man and hope he does the right thing.
blissfulbhajan 1 year ago
@blissfulbhajan You assume I said to nurture maschulinity, I said nothing of the sort.... I said there is no need to try and undermine it. Significant difference if women keep undermining maschulinity, how are women any better than men undermining femininity?
Eclypsia13 1 year ago
@Eclypsia13 I looked at your page and you had a blandinthebasement as a favorite video which spoke of all the issues i mentioned. I can't see a real feminist honestly liking anything she says- and jensen never says we should undermine masculinity but question what it actually is, just as a woman can still be a woman without following all the 'rules' of femininity so why can't a man do the same?
blissfulbhajan 1 year ago
@blissfulbhajan Because women have the choice not to follow the rules of feminity, men are having the change in maschulinity forced down their throats. What was that about freedom of choice again?
Eclypsia13 1 year ago
@blissfulbhajan If I was going to choose to listen to any spokesperson about feminism it would be Dr. William Farrel, because unlike alot of people on the feminist side, he cares for equality not degregation and double standards.
Eclypsia13 1 year ago
@Eclypsia13 Your argument that abortion is somehow largely supported by the feminist community as the whoops! Plan b! is also baseless. If you really look at great present day feminists like Ariel Levy or bell hooks they support women thinking for themselves and evaluate the choices they make in their lives, this includes the emotional aspect you mentioned.
blissfulbhajan 1 year ago
@Eclypsia13 Also what exactly is just discrimination because the word just infers that there is justice where as the first definition for discrimination is unfair treatment of one person or group, usually because of prejudice about race, ethnicity, age, religion, or gender.
blissfulbhajan 1 year ago
@Eclypsia13 Only the third definition of the word states the ability to notice subtle differences but I think a person would need to actually take a good look at something like feminism to make that judgment call. Finally, I sincerely think that the type of feminism that Jensen talks about doesnt make mountains out of mole hills, it just reveals the mountains for what they are. But many people cant see the forest for the trees.
blissfulbhajan 1 year ago
@blissfulbhajan Even if I did your being extremely hypocritical in saying that women have no need to nurture maschulinity, but demand that men nurture femininity. I am not a feminist, I do not care for the womens rights agenda on its own, I am a human rights activist, and care solely that all humans are equals, people demanding hugs while holding a knife is not equal
Eclypsia13 1 year ago
@Eclypsia13 I never said that men need to femininity. If anything people need to find themselves. It is NOT possible for a person to be a human rights activist without being a feminist. You cannot ignore the system of privilege that favors males just like you cannot ignore the system of privilege favoring whites that Martin Luther King Jr fought against.
blissfulbhajan 1 year ago 3
@blissfulbhajan I think I can be very much a human rights activist without being a feminist, especially when feminism isnt a coperative outlook of equality. The intentions of true feminists are good and work for equal rights, but that is rarely the case, now its poo finging and double standards. Want to talk about equality between the sexes? I don't see feminists talking about male homeless rates, or male suicide rates or work place death rates
Eclypsia13 1 year ago
@Eclypsia13 I'm going to go back to my original statement, please read something of Ariel levy's or bell hooks. Everything you're talking about with double standards can be addressed, I can't change your opinion or anyone else's just hope people can educate themselves
blissfulbhajan 1 year ago
@blissfulbhajan Double standards are never validated Its either your equal/fighting for equality, or your not equal/fighting for superiority. You cannot come to me and justify something that men are wrong for but women are ok to do and try to convince me that it is right. That is sexism, isnt that what feminism is fighting against?
Eclypsia13 1 year ago
@Eclypsia13 again i never said double standards are the way to go just that your questions about this illusion of feminism's double standards could be answered there. Equality is the way to go but it seems that both sides of the playing field have dug themselves so deep in the ground that neither can hear what the other one is saying in their own ditch
blissfulbhajan 1 year ago
@blissfulbhajan Then lets come up with a deal, I will watch yours if you watch mine, William farrells "myth of male power"
Eclypsia13 1 year ago
@blissfulbhajan It always comes with a feminine bias, thats not a equal way of thinking, thats not a humanitarian way of thinking, much like how black supremacy is not humanitarian thinking. Because it works against the philosophy of being equal and instead works on a "get a leg up over the opposition" stance instead.
Eclypsia13 1 year ago 2
@Eclypsia13 btw Check out feministing . org
blissfulbhajan 1 year ago
@blissfulbhajan Check out manwomanmyth's channel. You can watchi his documentaries about feminism in the right order on his website. They're very entertaining and the ideas are certainly not in the mainstream.
victoraleb 8 months ago
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and to the shithead, ElFrankus, that categorized me as an abuser using typical Stalinist-style demagoguery used by feminazis. I've never laid a finger to a woman in my life and I never will. It just happens that I just because I have a dissenting opinion, I'm not a sheep that have been brainwashed by Feminazi Indoctrination, so that makes me " the bad guy". You get threatened by the freedom of thought of others. FUCK YOU, and FUCK YOUR FEMINAZI CULT.
nabu2k7 2 years ago
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Robert Jensen is an ultra-leftist Marxist-feminazi-ass-kissing-mangina piece of shit. NOTE: a man that stays at home cleaning,taking care of kids, is still a MAN. A man that likes to play with dolls, he is STILL A MAN. A man that cries because his dog dies, STILL a man. This doesn't emasculate a man. What is NOT a man is this piece of shit Jensen that demonizes his own sex, by infantilizing women in a partenalistic matter and stripping them of all accountablity for their own actions.
nabu2k7 2 years ago
Robert Jensen is brilliant articulate and honest- further his critique of this culture is magnificent . Thank you so much for your vital work Robert and thank you for standing in solidarity with women and being willing to speak tuth to patriarchy
saba505 2 years ago
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This mangina is preaching the " Church of Victimology",which is central in Feminazi ideology. Now, there is no need for me to waste bandwith with an estrogen bollock like you, perpetuaring BITCHARCHY. That's what we have in U.S.A, "BITCHARCHY",feminazi bitches and self-hating manginas such as Jensen spreading LIES, fabricating BULLSHIT STATISTICS, that have been debunked one afte the other, such as " wage gap myth". There is no patriarchy,that is Saudi Arabia and the Taliban, not American men.
nabu2k7 2 years ago
Wow. You've done an excellent job emphasizing Mr. Jensen's points.. I'm not sure if you're doing that intentionally by acting like a caricature of the perverse version of masculinity he is speaking out against, or if you really are that ignorant. Either way, good job.
95topaz 2 years ago
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I'm not sure if you're doing that intentionally by acting like a caricature of the perverse version of masculinity he is speaking out against . .
To Jensen. all masculinity is perverse. He's a sellout and a mangina of the Nth degree.
Wytchfinde 2 years ago
I believe Robert Jensen may be a mangina.
MensRifleAssociation 2 years ago
@MensRifleAssociation
Bingo. Of the Nth degree.
Wytchfinde 2 years ago
Hey nabu2k7, there´s nothing like slapping a woman in the face, huh? show her how´s in command?
ElFrankus 2 years ago
I suspect enough people have told you this already, but you really are an ignorant, privilege-soaked, hostile moron.
maijune2009 2 years ago
anyone notice how for this video - the volume sucks ; very very low - even the others from this guy -----i cant help but wonder if it was a booty shakin chick dancng to music - how overwhelmingly loud the music would be hmm??
brebre1920 2 years ago
LOL, feminazi logic.most illegal aliens in the U.S are men that break their backs being exploited, getting paid like 10 dollars a day,so next time you go to the supermarket to buy grapes or veggies,you contributed to the exploitation of these guys. On the other hand,there are women that can make over a thousand dollars in less than an hour selling sex in one form or the other. Yeah, i tell you what,why don't we send allt he sex workers to pick up fruits in the fields to make you feel better?
nabu2k7 2 years ago
"most illegal aliens in the U.S are men"
What's your source on that?
NotADood 2 years ago
well informed? LOL, this idiot is a brainwashed fool by feminazi ideology. and no, he is NOT a man. Anyone that considers himself of the male gender, be a heterosexual man, homosexual man,or transexual man, DOES NOT believe in bullshit like "21 century patriarchy" and " male privilege" in the U.S and Canada. pornography is a product of " female liberation", nobody puts a gun to these actresses head, but ofcourse,is always the " menz fault". womyn are good, menz are bad. that's feminazi dogma
nabu2k7 2 years ago
no actually most women who go into porn did it because they felt it was their only place to turn to get money to survive. most women that leave porn leave it completely mentally messed up and with, guess what, sometimes stds
Geekella 2 years ago
thank you! at least u have some sense other than this above guy!!! what a dunce
brebre1920 2 years ago
hmmm so what makes a "man"? someone who follows society's standards of being a "man" like a little bitch!!! or someone who follows no man and follows his true rightful heart? why is it cause he is speaking for women that he is wrong?? if he was saying degrading things that would make him a man? get the fuck outta here - pick up a history book and learn what real men did - today's men is a joke!
brebre1920 2 years ago
seems like you're very smart as well :D
Geekella 2 years ago
thanks
brebre1920 2 years ago
hmmmm....why is he not well informed?? oh pray tell.....because it seems to me that men who are homophobic - when the term homosexualit (Inor heterosexuality) did not even exist till the last 100 years that today's man is following a made up belief about something they do not really understand ---now that is the opposite of being well informed - but for a man like this to learn to accept to realize there is more out there other than himself - well not only is he well in formed he's a man!
brebre1920 2 years ago
wow ofcourse men ar now feeling challenged - imagine a man that actually does not want to put down women - how frightening - if u ask me - men are the weaker sex....they are afraid of everything ....whatever is not white, tall, buff, has a penis, and has a job in corporate - that's scary as well as silly
brebre1920 2 years ago
This guy is the classic definition of a mangina.
nabu2k7 2 years ago
mangina as opposed to well informed?
brebre1920 2 years ago
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MichooK13 2 years ago
"Porn is not anti-sex but anti-sexist. Pornography generally shows women in subordinate situation"
It's "anti-sexist" at the same time it "shows women in subordinate situation?" Way to totally contradict yourself.
NotADood 2 years ago
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MichooK13 2 years ago
That wasn't even coherent.
NotADood 2 years ago
let's take a guess why
brebre1920 2 years ago
Because he's talking out of his anus to avoid examining how seeing women degraded boosts his ego. And maybe he's drunk.
(MichooK13 that is, not Jensen)
NotADood 2 years ago
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Whats wrong making mens sexual domiance erotic? Thats hot for me at least, whos to tell me that its wrong?
Darklordabc 3 years ago
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Feminists don't care about their arguments being logical, or even correct, they just care about hating men.
floydianworld 3 years ago
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Terms such as "anti-sexist porn" or "anti-degrading porn" are total BS because "sexist" or "degrading" are totally subjective, especially in the realm of paid pornographic content.
floydianworld 3 years ago
I will address the rest of your biased man-hate at a later stage, suffice to say I am not happy with where you dragged the discussion:
Number of women employed in porn according to a trade publication (I'm quoting ABC News): 100,000
Number of porn addicts throughout the world: No figure as it is a taboo non-feminist therefore non-Establishment issue; but hundreds of millions.
Consider the total anguish experience by one compared to the anguish compared to the other group.
floydianworld 3 years ago
** taboo non-feminist issue **
(Contd.)
Probably not an exaggeration to say it's like comparing a mountain to a mole-hill.
Now consider the selfishness of the feminist movement in their fraud "anti-pornography movement" which is nothing but CONTROLLED OPPOSITION claiming that only women are exploited by porn, and they compound men's addiction anguish by giving them a GUILT COMPLEX because of all this supposed female-only "abuse and degradation".
Their hatred is almost pornographic!
floydianworld 3 years ago
The point is not to make men feel guilty. It is to make them aware of their privilege as men (not their fault, it is the result of unfavor advantages bestowed to men by social insititutions and the U.S. 's misogynistic history), and have them be advocates for gender equality rather than continue to buy into a system that harms men and women. It is fact empowering men by saying, here is what is going on here. And Jenson's claim is that men are harmed by porn, so i don't get why you dont agree.
Sonnera 3 years ago 2
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"It is to make them aware of their privilege as men . . ."
Translation: disempower them even more than they already are, give them NO reproductive rights, and give license to women while making men more burdened by a Western culture that is a matriarchy under the trappings of patriarchy.
Wytchfinde 2 years ago
I am not sure why you want to quanify this so much, but all the victims of pornography are bad. Lets stop men from buying it and women from staring in it, through education and support. And you already said we disagree on why it is harmful to men, so we already have a road block there.
Sonnera 3 years ago
"Or men making 70 cents to the women's dollar."
You are a consummate liar, like all feminists.
Women in their 20s out-earn or earn the same as men. Women outnumber men in third level institutions by 10% which will feed into the labour market which will feed into wage difference. What have you to say about that? Nothing.
You are a man-hating sexist feminist. Admit it.
floydianworld 3 years ago
No, women earn substantially less then men in higher level administrative postions and are underrepresented based on education level and socio-economic status in top legal, medical, and business positions. Women earn more then men only in already lower paying jobs women are more likely to occupy, like the service industry. You really want me to get you all the stats I will. Outnumbering men in select areas does not translate into higher wages and is completely beside the point.
Sonnera 3 years ago
"According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' (BLS) 2004 wage data for full-time wage and salary workers aged 16 and older, women earned on average 80.4 percent of men's weekly median earnings. In virtually every occupation listed, men earned a higher median wage than women, regardless of job title." Look that up. Or how about you just google "women earn less then men" and you will find about 100,000 independant articles and studies in the first 5 minutes.
Sonnera 3 years ago
If it was snuff films where real-life women were raped and not paid and called a whore when she is not a whore, then I would agree with you 100%
Snuff films are not legal as you know, and I do not think they should be.
But in the case of commercial mainstream porn... NO WAY. You are just trying to create multiple anti-male anti-Patriarchy argument to feed your man hatred which feeds your feminism.
floydianworld 3 years ago
I think that they are distinct and innately different and innately un-equal, and we should not go against the tidal wave on this for what purpose? Anarchism? Breaking down society into something simpler and more primitive? No. I don't believe in any of that.
"I would rather diminish the demand for porn and educate people"
That will never happen. Supply creates demand. We are talking primal, evolutionary urges here.
If you really want porn to diminish, ban it outright.
floydianworld 3 years ago
But I know you are a feminist and thus sexual anarchist and thus pro-porn and will never do that. I say that rhetorically.
floydianworld 3 years ago
That's the differnece between us. Sexuality is innate, but I do not think there is anything innate or primal about this specific brand of sexuality, with its emphasis on violence and domination. We are just going to have to agreee to disagree on that one because its very hard to prove wither way.
Sonnera 3 years ago
Oh we have many major ideological differences. I have known that from the start.
floydianworld 3 years ago
"Porn is a symptom of larger social issues"
No it's not. Porn is a symptom of a Freemasonic Constitution and System of Government; and a feminist culture.
"larger social issues we have about gender and how men and women are expected to behave."
I'm not out to throw a ratchet into male and females behaviour are like you are as a feminist are, so this does not apply to me. I believe in men as men and women as women and complementary existence. Which you do not.
floydianworld 3 years ago
I believe in complex and varied human beings whose behavior, dreams, desires, etc are not determined solely, or even in large part, by their gender. I have plenty of research, testimony, and theory to make this a legitimate belief. I think men and women are sold short by society casting them into what is ultimately rigid and arbitrary roles.
Sonnera 3 years ago
There you go, using that fake feminist term "gender" again.
floydianworld 3 years ago
"I think men and women are sold short by society casting them into what is ultimately rigid and arbitrary roles."
Total non-belief in biological determinism. And in distinct sexual roles between men and women, even if they are beneficial practical or harmonious. That said, distinct roles between the sexes *will* be accepted if women in all of those roles are dominant/feminist. It is the traditional Patriarchal roles *only* which are under the rain of fire. Yes this is standard feminism.
floydianworld 3 years ago
No, nobody needs to dominant anybody. Why can't you beleive what I am saying. I don't want a matriarchy. I don't want to oppress men. I merely want no one to oppress anyone else. I don't think there is anything biological or inherent about the way we structure male/female relations, yes. There is some biology, but there is alot of socialization as well. Men are not inherently violent and domineering and women are not inherently submissive with "whore" like tendencies as you seem to think.
Sonnera 3 years ago 21
good!
brebre1920 2 years ago
I think we are almost finished here don't you?
Sonnera 3 years ago
"making policy and law to ban porn is a slippery slope."
No it's not. Banning porn is banning porn.
But even if it were a "slippery slope" to a less sexually anarchic regime (which gives you shivers), then so be it.
Don't claim to be "anti-porn" if you won't actually ban it completely; it's false advertising above everything else, though feminism is well used to that.
As I said it's just more intellectual dishonesty and as I said on my blog, language abuse.
floydianworld 3 years ago
If you recall, at the beginning of this debate I never once said i was anit-porn. That's a label that you placed on me. My assertion has always been that I am against racist and sexist porn period. If that doesn't make me anti-porn then fine.
Sonnera 3 years ago
"If you recall, at the beginning of this debate I never once said i was anit-porn."
Yes that's true. But there are very many women like you, feminists, who hold your exact same views and call themselves "anti-porn".
There is a so-called "anti-porn" feminist movement, and your views (degradation/Patriarchy/sex-slavery/etc.) basically encapsulates it.
floydianworld 3 years ago
Actually the goal in mainstream porn is not to dominate. There is no master/slave relationship in most mainstream hetero intercourse porn. You are a woman therefore you feel no desire to look at such scenes, but I can tell you that that is the truth.
You have engaging sex and energetic sex. That's about it. There's no distinct master/slave dichotomy there4 it's not "domination of women"
Plus the female porn star is getting paid millions (or in very many cases is). Your case is very weak.
floydianworld 3 years ago
A Master/slave scenario does not need to exist in order for you to classify it as dominating. It is dominating when someone is clearly in control of the sex act and is violent or excessively rough with the partner. This could be verbal abuse, physical hitting, causing the other person pain intentionally and lots of other stuff.
Sonnera 3 years ago
In my classification it does. It is the only meaningful, reasonably sensical way to classify it.
floydianworld 3 years ago
Please do answer the question on femdom and whether that qualifies as "acceptable porn" in the eyes of the feminist regulators?
floydianworld 3 years ago
No, it should not qualify as acceptable porn, and I do not know of any main stream feminist who has made that claim, but I can only speak for myself. I don't think its accpetable.
Sonnera 3 years ago
But you don't know of any mainstream feminist who has condemned it as violent and sexist either, do you?
floydianworld 3 years ago
Read my other post on the analogy with racism.
Sonnera 3 years ago
It doesn't mean they don't care or don't think its bad. It is just not their area of interest or focus. I can't think of very many mainstream feminists whom have explicitely stated they are against bridal sales in the various tribes of Papua New Guinea? But if presented with the question, I am sure many would say they are opposed to it.
Sonnera 3 years ago
"I do not want massive state censorship."
You are not anti-porn.
No feminist is anti-porn.
floydianworld 3 years ago
"The supreme court rejected on states anti-porn law because it would have outlawed making movies similar in content to american beauty and romeo and juliet."
No they rejected it because the USA was established by Freemasons (they wrote the Constitution) who in general endorse moral libertarianism/anarchism.
Also established feminist morality/sexuality firmly in the US.
A few sex scenes in Hollywood flicks, you really think "porn is free speech" is here because of that?
Don't make me laugh.
floydianworld 3 years ago
Ok, read the actual Supreme Court decision and thats what the Justice opinions actually state. i am afraid I win the evidenciary side of this argument.
Sonnera 3 years ago
"Good, you can support pornography that depicts men and women as equals"
Seeing as "equality" "equals" through the fem translation machine usually means "female domination" does this mean that elelsteev should support femdom only?
That is my main problem with "anti-porn feminists". They are not anti-porn!! They add provisos and opt-outs.
floydianworld 3 years ago
I am anti-porn when it comes to what I define as porn (violent, racist, misogynistic and/or misandric). However, making policy and law to ban porn is a slippery slope. I would rather diminish the demand for porn and educate people on what their relationship to porn and media in general is. Porn is a symptom of larger social issues we have about gender and how men and women are expected to behave. Banning porn will not solve these.
Sonnera 3 years ago
But you are not anti-porn in the true sense of the term. In the logical sense of the term.
As I said on my YT profile, "there is no such thing as 'anti-porn feminists'".
It rings true 100% of the time!
floydianworld 3 years ago
Check out my blog for some "explosive" alternative opinions on the porn question:
antipornmasculinist / blogspot / com
floydianworld 3 years ago
I have a feeling you will be running to your natural homeland - sexual anarchism - before long, solidly defending porn.
floydianworld 3 years ago
And he's wrong about living in a Patriarchy. We are living in a Matriarchal society which is gradually consolidating its Matriarchy-ness on different levels.
So let's throw that "Patriarchy" crap out the window let's now. Don't introduce falsehoods to the debate, Robert!
Criticising porn is not "being-self-critical" [boy does this Eunuch hate himself or what], it is criticising a feminist industry resultant of a Freemasonic legal code (Constitution, Supreme Court, porn is free speech).
floydianworld 3 years ago
He is being self critical in his book because his talks about his relationship with porn and how he thinks it taught him untrue and negative things about women and how it shaped his understanding of what it means to be a "real man", a view that was challenged when he learned about feminism and became an advocate.
Sonnera 3 years ago
It is shown that when women are in explicit master/slave degradation of men a la femdom, women/feminists have NOTHING to say. No negative thesis or critique to be found in all of Women's Studies throughout the World. So therefore it has nothing to do with equality, or degrading of people, but simply to do with hating men.
BECAUSE
Something matters when men do it [scapegoat], it does not when women [immune to criticism]
floydianworld 3 years ago
The Real Feminists ™ he works alongside, how does he respond to femdom pornography?
The femdom genre of porn is the final nail in coffin of feminists' conceited "campaign against pornography".
He will have nothing to say, or will excuse it by saying something "Matriarchy is not hierarchal and oppressive".
He won't entertain an argument like he would on male big bad Patriarchy exploitation in hetero intercourse scenes, I can guarantee you that much.
floydianworld 3 years ago
Ok, you keep mentioning femdom. I agree that's bad too! We can't solve the female objectification issue by objectifying men. But the reason this isn't the major focus of people studying porn nor of some feminists is that 1.- Overwhelmingly the porn industry depicts one kind of sex, men dominating women. 2. These images are being produced within a society where there are also serious sexual and domestic violence issues against women and demonstrated inequality in many realms.
Sonnera 3 years ago
I especially dislike your second point, as it provides a subtle approval and justification for this kind of openly misandric, openly master/slave depictions with men being treated far worse than women ever are, even in "hetero master/slave" analogues.
Name me one Women's Studies thesis or paper against femdom as sexist and oppressive and something feminism should get up in arms about, because they are all for equality don't you know.
Can you find such an article?
floydianworld 3 years ago
But I am not surprised by your subtle approval of the femdom genre. After all, femdom appears for all intents and purposes to be the eroticisation of feminist attitudes/objectives towards men.
See my blog - antipornmasculinist blogspot com - for more on this.
Also the quantity and proportion of violent and sexist porn should not matter to someone who is truly opposed to those things, which you are NOT.
floydianworld 3 years ago
I am not approving of FEMDOM!!!! I just said that? You are going to argue with me on something that is explicitely my own opinion? And I don't understand your other point. I shouldn't be concerned with violent porn if I am truly opposed to it? That makes no sense.
Sonnera 3 years ago
I am sure I can. I will have to look obviously. Let me give you an analogy. Few anti-racist activists are concerned with anit-white racist. It exists, and it is just as repugnant as other forms of racism, but it does not have the kind of historical, institutional, legal or social power and ubiquitousness that say, anti-black racism has and had in this country. Therefore, less is written about it and it is discussed less. It is the same with anti-male porn and misandry.
Sonnera 3 years ago
No, racism and sexism are not the same. What applies to does not applies to the other. I am not going to try to connect the two into a nice all-in-one PC package like leftists, feminists and Marxists do.
There are different dynamics completely to sexism and racism.
It's like talking about how the Nazis tagged Jews with the Star of Moloch but now they have the State of Israel and it will never happen again. Comparing that with feminists persecuting men today in the Western Matriarchy ...
floydianworld 3 years ago
... In culture and law. But one day we will rise up against that remember the mistreatment and establish a truly anti-female society.
Well NO. The comparison is completely invalid because the dynamics at play are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.
floydianworld 3 years ago
Just because the Jews rose up and triumphed against their racial oppressors ... (who did not kill 6 million of them by the way - that's a different story don't call me a Holocaust denier that's a Pavolvian response and you as a leftist should know that questioning programmed responses is oh-so-good)
.. Just as they triumphed we too will against our sexual oppressors women and feminists in the Matriarchy...
No the sequence of events will be completely different and non-analogous.
floydianworld 3 years ago
Are you actually suggesting that men have been historically oppressed by women? Give me the law saying men can't vote. Or men making 70 cents to the women's dollar. Or male rape victims being denied trials and police investigations by female judges and officers. Or being denied property rights by powerful elected women. Or made up male specific diseases like "hysteria"! It a history of female oppression.
Sonnera 3 years ago
The Matriarchy has not been fully formed yet. But judging by past Matriarchies and the rhetoric of would-be Matriarch rulers like yourself, yes men would be denied the right to voting and citizenship.
There's a "minicountry" in the Czech Republic that has that already, check it out.
floydianworld 3 years ago
I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about the actual history of the United States, not some futuristic imaginary world where women might do something in a "would be" Matriarchy.
Sonnera 3 years ago
That's fine. But its an apt analogy none the less. There has not been a legal, powerful system of opporession against men pertetuated by women in this country. It has been a system oppressive of women. That's why most feminists are concern with the oppression of women, and as a subset of that, porn they feel contributes to that system.
Sonnera 3 years ago
It's a comparison, yes, but not something we can particularly learn from.
WHY?
Because the sequence of events will be entirely different and the dynamics at play are entirely different.
floydianworld 3 years ago
The feminist critique, which Jensen said "exploded" the religious-vs-liberal paradigm of the debate (did it really?) by saying "porn is the exploitation of women in a male dominated Patriarchal society with porn eroticising that oppression".
This critique of porn is woefully - selfishly - narrow and incomplete.
And it requires a lot of logical jumps to say that sexual intercourse on camera "is the eroticisation of male Patriarchal oppression"
BUT the question is, for Eunuch Jensen and all ...
floydianworld 3 years ago
But the whole point is that it is not just sexual intercourse on screen. He describes what he is talking about in the book more clearly. It is women literally gagging and throwing up after having forceful oral sex. Its the faces and angles showing them in what looks like pain. Its the name calling "slut" "bitch" "whore". its the domination and submission. Why is this portrayal of sex so prominent? All sex( I would even say most sex) isn't like this so why is this the dominant image in porn?
Sonnera 3 years ago
The purpose of pornography is to arouse, that is why these verbalisations etc are put into sex scenes. It makes it more exciting.
Even if she is called a slut or a bitch - I mean she is getting penetrated by one or many anonymous men being filmed for millions of people, it's not like they are inaccurate descriptors - there is STILL no DISTINCT master/slave depiction
And she is still getting paid as much as a top neurosurgeon.
floydianworld 3 years ago
So exploitation/degradation in hetero intercourse sex scene? No.
Only in the eyes of feminists looking for arguments with which they can blame and indict men, with which they can express their hatred of men.
floydianworld 3 years ago
So insulting verbalizations make it more exciting? Why? Why is this the scenario the construct in the first place? The character in the porn might be a slut or a bitch, but why? Why are so many women in porn characterized that way? Why do the men have to demonstrate their power over them by calling them names and causing the actual actresses pain? What message is this sending to the viewer about sex, and how men and women are supposed to behave around one another?
Sonnera 3 years ago
The fact that she IS a slut might have something to do with it.
Ask the woman on set if she thinks she's a whore when she strips naked, has multiple guys penetrate her, and films the whole thing for millions to watch and pay for on the Internet.
She will say yes. It's a little bit of honesty coming from the black heart of a feminist porn artist.
floydianworld 3 years ago
I am sick of trying to tell you that I am not anti-male, so beleive whatever you want. Your the one that called me a cunt at the beginning, but I didn't call you anti-woman did I? And I would have been more justified in that opinion. The feminism I bleieve in is liberating for everyone. Aslo, you are not ansering my question. Why is this type of porn the majority of what is produced? What is arousing about women gagging and pain and why are men choosing to watch it?
Sonnera 3 years ago
Outside of "sexual exploitation" (which is rather ill defined and often contradictory), women in porn do exploit their labour (if you could call it labour) and bodies. Just as anyone in any line of work does. However they do this entirely normal form of exploitation WILLINGLY.
For men involved being exploited via porn addiction it is not necessarily "willing" because you are dealing with addiction and as you know this rewires neural circuits. The dopamingeric addiction cycle takes over.
floydianworld 3 years ago
This is not a competition of "who is exploited more" - and whole problem would be solve with a general pornography ban - but it is important to step back from gynocentric analyses of the situation and see the bigger picture.
floydianworld 3 years ago
I go by what I can prove. I can prove conventional labour exploitation and desire exploitation with addiction.
I cannot prove "exploitation/degradation" on behalf of the well-paid willing female porn performer as the issue is highly psychological, subjective and nuanced.
So I don't venture into that too readily - but the fact that she's a willing paid participant speaks alot to me. It also speaks alot that more female porn artists do not categorically regret their "career" choice in latr yrs
floydianworld 3 years ago
We don't necessarily have to ask women in the porn industry how they feel or what they experience to ascertain whether the pron Jenson is concerned about is exploitive and degrading. We can merely look at the content and the messages being sent about men, women, and sexuality. If the common message (which it is is alot of main stream porn) is that all women are sluts desiring to be dominated, and a man's role is to dominate (violently many times), we can define that as degrading and misogynistic
Sonnera 3 years ago
I am not being gynocentric, although I am concerned about women as an historically discriminated against and exploited group, especially in areas where men where men were given systemic advantages. Sex and the sex industry have historically been misogynisitic, as well as racist and unfavorable to children. This is true in many countries. Like I said, I would be fine banning pornography if by porn, we mean violent and exploitive erotica, but again, I do not want massive state censorship.
Sonnera 3 years ago
"I am not being gynocentric, although I am concerned about women as an historically discriminated against and exploited group"
Okay but look at the particulars of EACH SITUATION, and don't be overwhelmed (and overwhelm others) by the female side of the story only.
If you are talking about childbirth or menstruation, then your gynocentric selfishness in focus is perfectly fine, but with porn, it is not IMO. As well as being intellectually dishonest and lazy.
floydianworld 3 years ago
"Men should ahem resist the porn industry"
- Robert Jensen
I ask him what I ask feminists, why doesn't he call for an all out ban of pornography then, and criminalisation of those producing it, including performers.
NO, can't do that! Because it conflicts with his feminist sexual anarchist beliefs.
floydianworld 3 years ago
The reason people like Jenson and I don't want to criminalize pornography is because they think it sets a dangerous precident. Various sexual expressions in art and the media historical have been labeled pornography and obscene and have been outlawed. The censorship encroached on alot of pieces intended to be thought provoking or artistic. The supreme court rejected on states anti-porn law because it would have outlawed making movies similar in content to american beauty and romeo and juliet.
Sonnera 3 years ago
Well you are not anti-porn then are you? Drop the moniker.
floydianworld 3 years ago
Porn is a $13b a year industry, and that is the US alone. If women in porn can get only a small slice of that, I'm sure they are very grateful for the existence of the industry.
floydianworld 3 years ago
Also the idea that there are "multiple branches of feminism" is an oft-spun lie.
Feminism is a monolith and has core fundamental ideological positions which transcend all supposedly distinct "feminisms".
All feminism is pro-pornography because all feminism is pro-sexual anarchism.
And porn is sexually anarchic.
The "anti-porn" feminists exist to extract anti-male arguments out of the porn question. Anti-male sentiment is basically the fuel of the feminist movement.
floydianworld 3 years ago
I suspect many of these "anti-porn feminists" will move into femdom porn to express their hatred of men instead... Oh irony of ironies.
floydianworld 3 years ago
Since you couldn't have read the feminists I mentioned and actually beelieve what you are saying, I am actually going to end this conversation. Not only do you have misinformed ideas about feminism because you choose not to inform yourself, you also have highly stereotyped and archiac views of women. When you actually gain the mental acuity to argue effectively, and realize you are living in this century, I would be happy to talk to you. Bye Bye.
Sonnera 3 years ago
You lose.
Anything which is honest about women - discerned from basic observation - is deemed "archaic" and thus, unsubmittable to the debate.
What sort of bullshit debate is that?
A feminist debate.
floydianworld 3 years ago
"Very few women in porn are college educated statistically"
I'd say the numbers are going up all the time (does the porn industry produce regular stats, or are you just going off a 1980s feminist-group "survey").
Also I'd say involvement of college women in the other whore trades (prostitution and stripping) is increasing too. The way I see it, there's no valid explanation for this other than whore instinct.
floydianworld 3 years ago
Actually, the validation of it comes from the fact that the porn industry and stripping etc, is becoming more and more mainstream and acceptable for people of various classes to engage in. Thus, one would expect increasing participation rates amongst men and women, as is the case. However, most college educated women do not seek out a life in porn, and most porn stars are not college educated. This remains true, whether or not the numbers are increasing.
Sonnera 3 years ago
Riggghhht......
floydianworld 3 years ago
Who defines what is "sexist" porn?
I guess a man calling a woman a "slut" on set is "sexist", but a man being tied up kicked and verbally abused (femdom) is not?
I very much see the femdom genre of porn as the eroticisation of feminism's core towards men - i.e. castration, abuse, disabling.
Obviously feminism has done this towards men in the context of literature, mass media and laws. Now it's getting fully expressed in a sexual pornographic context.
..So you'll answer the "sexism" Q, yes?
floydianworld 3 years ago
** eroticisation of feminism's core OBJECTIVES towards men **
floydianworld 3 years ago
You seem to have a very odd interpretation of feminism. No feminist literature or legitimate feminist group I know of (and there are crazy people who claim to be feminists just like their are crazy assholes claiming to be christians) that seeks to "castrate" men. The goal is equality and opportunity, and freedom from the bonds that constrain men and women. One's gender should not determine who they are and what they are capable of, as it demonstrably does now! Same with with gender, race, etc.
Sonnera 3 years ago
Stop obfuscating.
95% of Feminism is Lies and Projection.. And you know it.
I don't care what you "define" feminism to be at this moment in this debate, I am interested in what it ACTUALLY is in theory and in practice as a whole.
floydianworld 3 years ago
That is what it actually is. Read feminist theorists like Susan Bordo, Eve Sedgewick, and Kimberle Crenshaw. Look up feminism on Wikipedia for God's sake! You will see what it actually is in theory and practice. Reasonable, intelligent people fighting for equality and human rights. And to be clear, their are many, many branches of feminism, including small radical factions. Some feminists even support pornography in its entirety, violent or not. Please do read further.
Sonnera 3 years ago
"That is what it actually is. Read feminist theorists like Susan Bordo, Eve Sedgewick, and Kimberle Crenshaw. Look up feminism on Wikipedia for God's sake!"
You think I haven't done that already you stupid fucking cunt?
I looked at the data as a whole and I made my conclusions.
Don't give me this "fighting for equality and human rights" crap.
Feminism is the Movement to Establish Matriarchy, end of.
floydianworld 3 years ago
Why the fuck do you think I am going to sit here and let you call me a cunt you asshole. I have been nothing but respectful. Why don't you grow the fuck up and have a real conversation instead of acting like a stuck-up whiny bastard.
Sonnera 3 years ago
You're right maybe it was uncalled for. It's just that normally call feminists in a debate.
But you've provided a better more structured debate than I am typically used to getting, so for that I unequivocally withdraw my assertion.
floydianworld 3 years ago
Fine. Disregard the comment I just posted then. I will continue to talk to you if be respectful. I will make a few more responses and then I need to go to class. I can respnd again in the evening.
Sonnera 3 years ago
Right we both posted at "3 seconds ago" simulaneously. I am willing to keep this debate open I will say that much.
floydianworld 3 years ago
Also there's no such thing as "gender". When you are talking about men and women, "the sexes" is the word to use.
Feminists popularised gender as a substitute for the sexes in the 1970s but I do not use this linguistic innovation.
Feminists don't like this because they don't like "binary" and "polar opposite constants". But hey reality must come into play.
floydianworld 3 years ago
What a load of politically correct leftist feminist bullshit.
Feminism is total hypocritical horseshit. But their "arguments" against pornography I really do cringe. An overloading of hypocrisy.
They try to guilt-trip men about the fact that whores making millions on the Internet from them masturbating in their rooms. Leftist/feminist insanity.
antipornmasculinist / blogspot / com
floydianworld