What's My Line? 11-7-65 with Joey Heatherton 1 of 3

[alanwatts1]

All you can do is read Arlene's 1978 memoir to try to understand how many times she and Martin moved and for possibly silly reasons. Be careful saying their son Peter moved with them. He attended a boarding school.

The Cerf family was different. They lived in the same Mt. Kisco and East 62nd Street houses for decades.

[alanwatts1]

Gymnastix, I must not forget your question about where Arlene and Bennett lived. She seems to have moved many times within Manhattan in the 1950s and 1960s. On at least one occasion, according to her 1978 memoir, she moved for a silly, impulsive reason having to do with an organic food chef whom she hired to prepare meals in her kitchen, and he yelled at her friends to vacate the kitchen. A very short time later, she said to her husband Martin words to the effect, "That's it. We're moving."

[alanwatts1]

"The Pawnbroker" offended many white people in Middle America with its flashbacks to a Nazi concentration camp (in a quickie style that inspired the people who created "Midnight Cowboy" and MTV) and its frontal nudity of a black woman whose boyfriend works for a Jewish Holocaust survivor. Even today, the issue of Jewish people owning all the stores where all the employees are black remains touchy.

Yet Ron Pataky said in his newspaper in November of 1965 how much he loved that movie.

[alanwatts1]

Unfortunately, nobody at your 1977 panel discussion seemed to know that Ron Pataky was still working for a Columbus, Ohio newspaper. Although people in Columbus seem to have had little to do with Ramparts magazine in the late 1960s or the New Left movement, Pataky was and is a very open-minded person. He judges each person as an individual and each movie as a unique thing. A very short time after his friend Kilgallen died, his newspaper ran his glowing review of the film "The Pawnbroker."

[alanwatts1]

Reply to Gymnastix: It is interesting you moderated a 1977 panel discussion on JFK that included Danny Schechter yet you are interested in "where Kilgallen used to wine and dine with Johnnie Ray."

Did you know she spent very little time with Mr. Ray during the years 1964 and 1965 ?

Kilgallen spent much more time with a Columbus, Ohio newspaper film / music critic named Ron Pataky during that era.

In February and March of 1968, Pataky helped Mark Lane promote his film "Rush to Judgment."

[giuraesuda]

Are you being facetious or are you not familiar with the term "Sikh?"  In 1965 most Sikhs lived in India, I think.

[termsofusepolice]

He dares call Spoony "sick" just because he wears nutty Eastern clothing?? Racism was sure alive and well in the mid 60's. Outrageous. Outrageous!!

[alanwatts1]

In truth, Richard slept in their daughter's old room on the fourth floor after she got married and moved out of the house in 1963. As of 1965, Richard slept on the fourth floor and Dorothy on the fifth. He didn't want police officers or medical examiner James Luke, who visited the house for approximately 45 minutes to study the death scene, to know he and his wife slept apart. Possibly for that reason, authorities didn't understand the suspiciousness of her lying dead in that 3rd floor room.

[alanwatts1]

The third floor, which was the highest that guests went inside the Kollmar brownstone, had the family's "Black Room," which is where they showed off a huge painting of a Civil War battle and Richard's sculpture collection. Next to the Black Room was what looked like the master bedroom. That was what Richard and Dorothy wanted guests to think it was. Many people knew they had a marriage of convenience, but many people didn't. The clueless ones thought that was the couple's master bedroom.

[alanwatts1]

Richard and Dorothy invited many guests to their brownstone -- even during the last few months of her life. Los Angeles Times reported that 20th Century Fox offered film critics from all over the world a chance to visit Dorothy Kilgallen's home in June of 1965. Guests saw the ground floor, which had an entrance hall and not much else, the second floor with its Victorian drawing room (no electricity) and dining room, the third floor and that's all. Fourth and fifth were for family / employees

[alanwatts1]

No, Richard Kollmar wasn't "thoroughly investigated" by the NYPD or medical examiner. They didn't investigate at all his wife Dorothy's whereabouts during her last 24 hours. They didn't interview a single witness besides Richard. People who knew the couple believed he wasn't the type of person who could orchestrate a murder disguised as a drug overdose. Richard had another motive for giving contradictory stories to two NYPD officers. He didn't want to acknowledge he and his wife slept apart

[alanwatts1]

That doesn't mean Richard Kollmar was involved in a conspiracy. Consider that in the story he told one NYPD officer he said he and Dorothy had alcoholic drinks together at home after she returned from the "What's My Line?" studio. He wouldn't have said that if he had been helping conspirators grab her inside their house. Richard told another NYPD officer he had not seen her at all after the live television broadcast. If he was covering anything, it was the fact they slept in separate rooms

[alanwatts1]

She died at age 52. Death certificate said the cause was "acute ethanol and barbiturate intoxication: circumstances undetermined."

[1simaddict1]

@alanwatts1 Marlyn Monroe died of barbiturate intoxication too. #Justsayin

[ziggycat999]

Viewing these Youtubes of "What's My Line" I've found a crush on Dorothy Kilgallen. How old was she and what did she die from?

[JCJasion]

She did not look good on that show either.

[alanwatts1]

Cole Porter said that, not Noel Coward. Mr. Porter said it when she missed a live broadcast of "What's My Line?" but she was alive.

[librarybob1958]

So long to (as my late father called her) Ol' Pinchface. To this day, it's never been conclusively proven whether the cause of her death was accident, suicide...or murder. The last was, and has always been, a distinct possibility, since she made a lot of powerful enemies, enemies who could easily engineer something like that...and get away with it.

Perhaps Noel Coward provided her best epitaph: "Dear me! I shall miss hating her on TV, every week."

[Brighteyes1ful]

Arlene Francis looks very tired in this episode

[DaniHarmerTV]

RIP Dorothy. Here we can see her and the others of 'Whats my line?' live on.

[xXxXBleedPurpleXxXx]

@saychinqua thats the most ignorant thing i have ever heard. i should bitch slap your parents for breeding, clearly they have not a clue how to raise a child.

[xXxXBleedPurpleXxXx]

Hey dentel do you have the next weeks ep? nov 14 1965?

[henrygrove100]

Dorothy's last show scares the crap out of me. john daly sure wants to know his background...

[henrygrove100]

Dorothy's last show scares the crap out of me

[henrygrove100]

Dorothy is sweating a lot here..

[iginla12ftw]

@saychinqua He was not a terrorist, he was an amazing, generous man who lives on through his family. I find that extremly insulting and ignorant to say as I am apart of his family and I am also a Sikh.

This comment is extremly sickening and hurtful I don't understand how people still think this way.

This comment is like me saying all white people are apart of the KKK which is definatly NOT true.

Think before you speak.

[mayo15]

That's our uncle!!! <3 <3 <3

[iginla12ftw]

@mayo15 Yes it is! <3

[olegschramm]

My wrong. She gets abruptly interrupted with "good night" at 8:31 in the 3rd(last) clip, like she tried to add something at the end of the show. I think, she said "wore tux", "bore tax", "vortex", but I'm not sure, but it's not significant. Bottom line - she gets treated very poorly by the host, and apparently, by others on this particular show, even though, she is the most brilliant out of all of them...

[alanwatts1]

Are you referring to what Dorothy says immediately after Bennett's last comment of the night ? He says, "I'd only like to say one thing about that pretty football writer. She'd better dig up a field - goal kicker for the New York Giants or it's gonna be too bad."

If you're referring to what Dorothy says immediately after that, then here it is: "Oh, I thought you were going to say something about a forward pass." Of course, she was punning on Bennett's use of "pretty" and a football term.

[olegschramm]

Very interesting to observe the host's behavior towards Dorothy. Kind of hostile, and at the end of the 3rd clip he totally ignores her last comment, in fact, her last comment is buried in the sounds. Very interesting...

[Jonboi713]

@olegschramm A lot of the hostility comes from Dorothy's worsening alcoholism. She is clearly under the influence of something here, the sweat, her slight slurring of speech. Arlene Francis talks about it in her autobio!

[alanwatts1]

Arlene does not talk about Dorothy's personal problems or slurred speech in her 1978 autobiography. Dorothy is not sweating more than anyone else on this kinescope from the night she died. Studio lights are much brighter than on other episodes. Everyone's skin is shiny. Dorothy slurs her introduction to Tony Randall. Several minutes later she enunciates while questioning Spoony Singh of Hollywood. On other episodes she also slurs, but * what * she says is always apropros. She isn't drunk

[alanwatts1]

How could Dorothy Kilgallen have known less about the Kennedy Assassination than I know now ? She could talk to David Ferrie. I can't. He died in 1967. I'm not saying he was guilty of anything related to JFK. (Though it's a fact he did inappropriate things with juvenile boys.) I'm saying once someone's dead, that's it. Here's an analogy. If you are into genealogy, you might learn a few things from old censuses, but how could you know more than your grandparents about their siblings ?

[alanwatts1]

But millions of people were responsible for nutty people getting so much attention with their Oswald theories. If the Warren Comission had done a better job, such as interviewing David Ferrie as the FBI had several months earlier, then Mark Lane could not have made many thousands of dollars with his bestselling 1966 book "Rush to Judgment." Oliver Stone would not have made his paranoid JFK movie or even his first screenplay "Midnight Express." (That also tells a paranoid and false story.)

[alanwatts1]

On November 8, 1965, if you had a story to tell about witnessing Lee Oswald talking to David Ferrie or another ex-convict about shooting JFK, your story did not reach a large audience. If you approached a reporter for the Dallas Times Herald or Washington Post, that reporter could blow you off. Then you were stuck. Some people claimed they wrote letters to the FBI or Warren Commission with stories like that, but those officials blew them off. I agree Mark Lane and Oliver Stone were nutty.

[alanwatts1]

I'm not being silenced because I live in an era when a homeless person can visit a public library and upload any statement about any topic to a lot of websites. No, not every website. But even those that have moderators will display a homeless person's comment for several hours while the moderators are eating. A serial killer can forewarn a lot of people that soon he will strike at a certain home address. Many people who read it won't notify police. Compare this to the day Kilgallen died.

[spelvin214]

As another show had it, people are funny. ... This man is a Sikh, not a Muslim, so the "terrorist" joke kind of bombs, no pun intended. ... Dorothy Kilgallen fatally mixed alcohol and pills and died. Anyone who thinks she was "silenced" because she knew the truth about the Kennedy Assassination probably also believes in aliens crashing at Roswell, psychics, astrology and communication with dead relatives -- all the things that are just too exciting to be true.

[alanwatts1]

@spelvin214 said: "Dorothy Kilgallen fatally mixed alcohol and pills and died. "

Marilyn Monroe mixed them, too -- many times for years. That doesn't stop smart men like Geraldo Rivera and Dr. Thomas Noguchi from speculating that she was injected with barbiturates when she died.

"Anyone who thinks she was 'silenced' because she knew the truth about the Kennedy Assassination probably also believes in aliens crashing at Roswell, psychics... "

You're speculating about what others believe

[spelvin214]

@alanwatts1 Geraldo Rivera is more a show man than a smart man. It's more exciting to say Marilyn Monroe was murdered -- that's how you get ratings. ... It's amazing how so many people "know" that Monroe or Kilgallen were murdered, and almost half a century has gone by, and still no one has come forward with any real evidence. It's funny how people know about all these papers that "disappeared" and mystery men that were "seen."

[spelvin214]

It's funny how these "perfect" crimes, like the Kennedy Assassination, were committed, and all the evidence was destroyed -- yet everyone knows the "truth" anyway! ... There comes a time when you have to face reality. In real life, there's almost always a "Deep Throat" type of guy who'll spill the beans. Accept the fact that some people die accidentally. Dorothy Kilgallen probably knew less about the Kennedy Assassination than you know now -- how come you're not being "silenced"?

[peteo100]

2010 and 1965 share the same calendar dates, so it will be 45 years ago this Sunday that this episode aired and 45 years on Monday since Dorothy's death.

[SOLE2SOUL]

So this is Dorothy's last show. I've been wanting to see it in its entirety for some time but I'd also love to see the first show after her death. No one seems to have posted that one.

[wendyglowworm]

@SOLE2SOUL It is posted, I've seen it awhile ago, just search What's My Line 11-14-65. They pay tribute to Dorothy.

[SOLE2SOUL]

@wendyglowworm Thanks. I actually found it the day after I posted that comment. They all seemed to be in shock over it. I'm glad I saw it but it was sad.

[alanwatts1]

That Kilgallen column item also appeared in the Arizona Republic and the Cincinnati Enquirer.

[alanwatts1]

Here's a follow-up to my post about Ron Pataky. # 1 - When Dorothy visited P. J. Clarke's on the night she died, she met "What's My Line?" producer Bob Bach there, not Ron. After she left P. J. Clarke's, she went to the cocktail lounge at the Regency Hotel on Park Avenue. That's where she met Ron. # 2 - If you can't access the New York Journal American on microfilm, then you still can read Dorothy's column item about Ron. It appeared in the Washington Post on June 17, 1964 page A 22.

[jimmywilde]

TODAY IS JOEY'S 66TH BIRTHDAY. HAPPY BIRTHDAY JOEY. LOVE PAUL

[arjhendrix]

Spoony Singh from Hollywood.... :---)))

WoW

[fromthesidelines]

Standard Brands [Fleischmann's Margarine, Instant Chase & Sanborn coffee] was the "primary" sponsor on this edition...the following week, on NBC radio [7:05-8pm(et)], they sponsored "The Chase & Sanborn 101st Anniversary Show", a special featuring Edgar Bergen & "Charlie McCarthy", presenting highlights from Fred Allen's 1945-'49 radio shows {both of their radio shows were sponsored by Standard Brands during the '40s}.

[MerleOberon]

poor Dotty, she's sweating like a whore on a friday night, she loved her booze and seconals...

[alanwatts1]

@MerleOberon said: "poor Dotty, she's sweating like a whore on a friday night, she loved her booze and seconals..."

All the panelists seem to have shiny skin on this episode. Even if Dorothy did take barbiturates, what evidence do we have that she didn't follow the pharmacist's instructions? Why did her hairdresser Marc Sinclaire find her dead in a bed that wasn't hers? He was videotaped talking in 2000. I've watched it. He says not only was the bed not hers, but she hated the room.

[TheWordManifest]

Mr Singh I dunno I was thinking terrorist...

[wheresmylife]

Three notes of interest to me.

1. Bennett Cerf is the only member of the panel regulars that doesn't look as though he aged.

2. I can't believe the original show lasted almost 18 years.

3. Many of these episodes seem like innocent fun but it's sad how scandalous their lives were. Especially Dorothy Kilgallen. There really was no such time in history as "innocent times." Hollywood only portrayed certain time periods that way.

[alanwatts1]

Katherine Williams Stone recalls seeing Dorothy Kilgallen and a young man seated at a red banquette inside the Regency.

Spoony, Katherine and her friends Jim and Marge were standing with a group in a cocktail party. Kilgallen and her friend were seated several yards away at a banquette. There was a lot of laughing among the people who were standing with their mixed drinks. Because of that, nobody thought of looking several yards away to the banquettes in the semi - darkness.

[alanwatts1]

Katherine recalls her friend Jim Thigpen kidding Spoony Singh about his dress. Jim suggested he might one day see Spoony riding on a magic carpet in the sky.  Contacted at his home in the Florida panhandle in 1995, Jim said he doesn't recall that but it sounds like something he said as a joke. Spoony was a good sport.

Jim does recall Dorothy Kilgallen getting in her limo before his group did. She traveled to P. J. Clarke's in a separate limo from producer Bob Bach, who joined her there.

[alanwatts1]

30 years later Spoony Singh recalled only he had "good feelings" after leaving CBS Studio 52.

At her Kentucky home recently Katherine explained why she was the only cocktail partier paying attention to Dorothy. It was that she was glad Dorothy had guessed her "line" of selling dynamite on TV. Katherine did not want to interrupt the serious conversation Dorothy was having with young man.

Sorry for hogging the blog for five posts. All done now. To confirm contact Katherine, age 80.

[alanwatts1]

They both recalled getting into a limousine with two of her friends from Kentucky: Jim and Marge Thigpen.

The group traveled in the limo (provided by CBS) from CBS Studio 52 on West 54th St. to the Regency Hotel on Park Ave.

Regency was owned by the Tisch brothers who also owned CBS. The Regency was 2 years old at the time and was promoting itself by hosting midnight cocktail parties on Sunday nights. That explains CBS inviting the group of four to travel in a free limo to the hotel.

[BillyAlabama]

Interesting note...the dress that Dorothy is wearing on this last show was designed by Anne Fogarty, the woman Dorothy's husband Dick Kollmar married after Dorothy's death.

[heileman28]

5:04

thats alright get me another drink

[melanson7]

@heileman28 "That's alright, give me a no, John."

[mcmrfklaw]

Dorothy Kilgallen was one of the greatest reporters who ever breathed. If she had lived we might have known who killed Kennedy. It might have taken years to uncover it all, but Dorothy would not have given up. If all reporters were like Dorothy and refused to quit we would know who killed Kennedy. More reporters should be like Dorothy.

"This story will not die as long as a real reporter is alive".  Dorothy Kilgallen on the Kennedy assassination

[melanson7]

@mcmrfklaw She was asking relevant questions about the Marilyn Monroe death, another official explanation that didn't make sense. Sad irony though, that she herself would end up in a similar drug-related death.

Apparently, after an investigative trip to New Orleans in October on the JFK case, she began getting personal threats. She had to be feeling a great deal of pressure and tension towards the end, and only too late began to suspect something about her new friend Pataky.

[the1musiclad]

@melanson7 - it was something about the lights being on for marylin. it was similar for dorothy. but i think (if i remember correctly) dorothy also wasn't wearing her glasses even though she had a book in her hands when she was found dead. strange how these things aren't picked up.

[soulierinvestments]

1:04 -- you will note in Dorothy Kilgallen's last introduction sequence that she looks a little flushed and that she slurs that African location and Tony Randall's name a bit. However, if she is sloshed on alcohol and seconal at this point, she does well anyway in the rest of the program. She went out in a cloud of WML glory.

[calalilygirl]

@soulierinvestments She really did. She would like that.

[soulierinvestments]

Freeze at 0:56 and compare to her entrance in 1962

Strange Moments From What's My Line StooGP when she was at the height of her alcohol abuse problem and was almost anorexic. In November 1965 she was in good shape. I remember distinctly that her suddenly death supposedly from a heart attack came as a real shock.

[pepsibookcat]

*sigh* I cannot watch this without feeling deeply sad for her children.

[karenferguson]

As I posted on another clip, I knew colleagues of her in NY who had dinner with her shortly before her death. They said she mentioned having a shocking scoop on the death of JFK.

[calalilygirl]

This show lost a lot when they lost Dorothy Kilgallen

[christheone8773]

Watching this clip seems kind of spooky - from November 7, 1965 - with Dorothy Kilgallen having only hours left to live-

[jph0917]

Even spookier, she was wearing that very dress when she was found and her widower (Dick Kolmar) married it's designer.

[calalilygirl]

didn't know that.

[mcmlxvi]

Wanna see spooky? There's a video of Carmen Miranda having her first heart attack while she's dancing and she didn't even know it. She died less than 6 hours that night of a second attack after that performance. You can see the exact moment when she is about to faint, although she recovered and kept going. Very creepy.

[creatornat]

I am curious, where might that video be of this attack?

[mcmlxvi]

Is called "Carmen Miranda: 2º Parte do Programa Jimmy Durante" (copy/paste it on the search box) you'll see that when she's dancing around with durante at some point she almost felt on her knees, it is known today that at that point she had a mild heart attack, and she died (of a stronger one) less than 12 hours after the recording of that performance.

[creatornat]

Oh my, that's so sad. Thank you for providing the information-I can see by that video, she just kept going remarkably well-anything to keep the professional air up for everyone.

[calalilygirl]

Properly fit dentures would only make you talk better and don't "always" affect speech to my knowledge and my experience with people who wear them.

[DerAdventurer]

Her death will continue to be somehow a mistery. Suicide, accident or file erasing... uncertain. Such a shame.

[MaryAliceMaryAlice]

I'm currently reading her biography by Lee Israel, and the circumstances of her death are certainly suspicious. I hear they're making a movie about her in 2010.

[logansGT]

Maybe Frank Sinatra had her wacked. He was frequently her pinata in her gossip column.

[filmfemmenoir]

They are indeed. It's called Goodnight, Dorothy Kilgallen. There is also a film being made about Arlene called That Certain Something. Looking forward to both.

[Taharah007]

@MaryAliceMaryAlice I hope so...she was a brilliant journalist who did a little too much "digging"...What a waste!

[dahoss65]

Spoony Singh died on Oct 25, 2006 at the age of 83.

[rstephen52]

Did that stuffshirt Daly actually ask Mr. Spoony Singh if he was a "sick?" I thought he would be more educated and know that the proper pronunciation sounds more like "seek." So much for thinking that you're better than everybody else, Mr. Fat-Brain Know-It-All!

[sennichi98]

Ask a Sikh...their pronunciation is 'sick' but changed in north america for rather obvious reasons.

[Schnorbs]

There are some rather lovely obituaries of him on the web. Quite a life - born in India, moving to Canada when he was 3. He only founded the Hollywood wax museum a year before this broadcast. By all accounts, a very lively and canny entrepreneur.

[alanwatts1]

Obit I read said Spoony Singh moved from Vancouver, Canada to Los Angeles in 1961. It said he opened Hollywood museum 4 years before he traveled to New York for "What's My Line?".

Shortly after GSN revived this episode in 1995, Mr. Singh reunited on the phone with Katherine Williams Stone, the contestant after him that night. They both recalled ...

[opower95]

I must say Dorothy Kilgallen was/is probably my favorite panelist. I've only been watching WML for about 4 or 5 days and was immediately hooked. But Mrs. Kilgallen seems extremely smart. I was interested in seeing this, once I came across it, and so far... so far I haven't really seen a difference in behavior. Other than and pardon my saying this they all look greasy but I think that's the lighting.

[grainofsandfan]

They were all so smart and sophisticated. It was such an ensemble of talent and knowledge.

[PatinPDX]

According to the biography on her ("Kilgallen" by Lee Israel), Dorothy had been a long time user of barbituates and they tend to build-up in one's system. This sometimes led to people who used them appearing to be high or "stoned" with the slurred speech, and "off'-kilter" gait. There were a number of "What's My Line?" appears where she seemed high but Dorothy always had too much a regard for the show to actually be drunk while being on it.

[brosue4]

oh come on, she died 8 hours after this. She wasnt feeling her best. Who the heck cares what she looks like, we are watching some of the last moments of her life!

[scorinado]

I don't get why people say Dorothy looked like she'd been on a bender. I think she looks like a typical 52-year-old woman, which is hardly surprising since that's how old she was when she died. And she was sharp enough to swoop in and identify that dynamite saleswoman, after B. Cerf "opened the door." I guess a lot of people don't realize that WML was on for a very, very long time, and Kilgallen -- gasp -- aged.

[XMLarry]

Dorothy looked (and sounded) like death warmed over on this show. So sad, she had such journalistic talent as well as being so pretty.

[martinimerlin]

Dorothy was last seen alive that night at PJ O'Rourke's - her favorite watering hole, with a mystery man - who was never identified. She was planning an article on the JFK assassination - she was the only reporter granted an interview with Jack Ruby in the Dallas jail.

[Muffy2314]

thanks for interesting info

[alanwatts1]

Reply to "martinimerlin" Sorry to hear your account is suspended. I want to make a slight correction. The mystery man wasn't at P. J. Clarke's.

[tallpaul521]

@alanwatts1 I'm the former "martinimerlin". The Sinatra Estate suspended my former account due to some rare, non-commercial Sinatra videos I posted. Thanks for the correction.

[alanwatts1]

Part 2 of reply to "martinimerlin" Dorothy traveled by limousine from CBS Studio 52 directly to P. J. Clarke's, a well-known restaurant on Third Avenue near the corner of East 50th Street. Her friend Bob Bach, one of the producers of "What's My Line?", traveled there separately. They sat together inside the restaurant, and her favorite waiter, Patty Blue Baker (male) served her a vodka and tonic. We don't know if she finished drinking it.

[alanwatts1]

Part 3 of reply to "martinimerlin" We know she stayed at P. J. Clarke's a very short time. We know that because we have a still - living eyewitness from "What's My Line?" who went directly from CBS Studio 52 to the Regency Hotel, and the witness saw Dorothy there with the mystery man. We also know that she left P. J. Clarke's without Bob Bach. He did not join her at the Regency Hotel because she had told him she planned to meet with someone privately at the Regency.

[Taharah007]

@martinimerlin It isn't difficult to read between the lines...is it?

[alanwatts1]

@martinimerlin said a year ago: ** Dorothy was last seen alive that night at PJ O'Rourke's - her favorite watering hole, with a mystery man - who was never identified. **

The "watering hole" was and is called P. J. Clarke's. It was and is as famous for its hamburgers as for its alcohol. You can confirm the "mystery man" was Ron Pataky by reading Kilgallen's column as it appeared in the New York Journal American on Sunday, June 14, 1964. He was the only new friend she made in 1964 or 1965.

[gymnastix]

@alanwatts1 I am not a JFK assassination conspiracy buff, per se, even though I was five years old on the day of President Kennedy's death, and still have a pretty much full recollection of the events of those four days in November of 1963.

Though I don't think conspiracies are behind every strange or unexplained, major event in history, I have always thought there was more to JFK's murder than merely Lee Harvey Oswald as a lone gunman.

[gymnastix]

@alanwatts1 I have read a fair amount on the subject. In fact, as a college newspaper editor, I moderated a forum on the CIA and political assassinations, with a panel that included a former news director of WBCN-FM in Boston (who had also been a reporter for the now-defunct "Ramparts" magazine, and for ABC News), and a representative of the Assassination Information Bureau (AIB). That forum was in 1977, not long after Congress re-opened the investigation into the JFK assassination.

[gymnastix]

@alanwatts1 Years later, I also had the opportunity to communicate with a retired Fort Worth police officer, who was on detail the day JFK arrived at the FW airport, before Kennedy traveled to Love Field in Dallas. And what that man told me of his own family's experiences with LBJ, along with my own knowledge of LBJ's utter contempt for Bobby Kennedy, convinced me the 36th President of the United States was definitely involved with a plot to remove the 35th President of the U.S.

[gymnastix]

@alanwatts1 But anyway, moving on, even as a devout fan of the original "What's My Line?," I am having trouble recalling Dorothy Kilgallen's regular hangout. I know the watering hole of John Daly was Toots Shor's. But, for some reason, I thought some place other than P.J. Clarke's is where Kilgallen used to wine & dine with Johnnie Ray, and others of her New York society friends. Can you think of the name of another NYC nightclub/restaurant at which Kilgallen was a frequent patron?

[gymnastix]

@alanwatts1 Also, do you know if Arlene Francis or Bennett Cerf were frequent patrons of any New York bistros themselves?

I am somewhat confused on this, as on "WML?" Cerf and Francis spoke of being neighbors in Mount Kisco, NY. Yet I thought each also had apartments (a penthouse in Francis' case) in Manhattan. Of course, each was also wealthy enough to have maintained multiple residences. But where did Cerf and Francis live most of the time? Do you know this, from any research?

[alanwatts1]

martinimerlin said: "Dorothy was last seen alive that night at PJ O'Rourke's - her favorite watering hole, with a mystery man - who was never identified."

The correct name of that watering hole was and is P. J. Clarke's, and it was and is more than a watering hole. It was and is known for its hamburgers.

The mystery man wasn't with Dorothy at P. J. Clarke's on the night she died. What's My Line? producer Bob Bach was. She went from there to the Regency Hotel. Enter the mystery man.

[gabsylv]

@alanwatts1 Her husband must have had something to do with it, in some way. Didn;t he marry the dress designer not that long after Dorothy died?

[alanwatts1]

@gabsylv said: ** Her husband must have had something to do with it, in some way. Didn;t he marry the dress designer not that long after Dorothy died? **

They married a year and seven months after Dorothy's death. No, Richard had nothing to do with his first wife's death. People who knew him said in the 1970s he wasn't clever enough to participate in a murder disguised as an overdose. Richard told contradictory stories about his last sighting of Dorothy to two different police officers.

[gabsylv]

@alanwatts1 That fact in itself (the contradictory testimonies) might raise suspicions, no? I'm sure he was thoroughly investigated, but it's funny how people are so ready to believe a conspiracy theory.

[Muffy2314]

Maybe they had been out and had some drinks before the show

[TIPTON340]

Dorothy Killgalen last What's My Line appearance.

[Poco1997]

Later on in her life Dorothy Killgalen looked like a boozer

[SueBeaWho]

I don't get Cadroll's reply to my post. Where in the heck did I mention Dorothy's voice??? Maybe it was an older post of mine, but I was concerned about her obvious PHYSICAL decline from the battering affects of alcohol to the human body. Anyone able to enlighten me on what cad is talking (pun intended) about in regard to my post(s)?

[cadrolls1]

I'm sorry to have grouped you together with the others but, the point was that Dorothy was older and so naturally, her voice and looks would be different too. I saw no signs that she was any different from before in her personality. Dorothy was a very pretty woman on the inside which made her very attractive on the outside. Although, she did look a little bloated, that could have been caused by a variety of things. Her period, could've been one of them. Still, she didn't deserve to be murdered.

[haffmonty]

I agree. Water retention could be caused by anything, including menopause, MSG in Chinese food, kidney issues, and heredity, among many, many others.

[meanwiddlekid]

Tony Randall introduced as a young man. Wow. He'd be almost 90 today. All you JFK conspiracy theorists need a new hobby. Especially bandying fantasies about after you read Gerald Posner's book, which should have convinced you what a folly the conspiracy industry is.

[mikeinverizon]

Whatever

[meanwiddlekid]

Put your thinking cap on for that one, didn't you?

[mikeinverizon]

You certainly didn't if you believe Oswald acted alone.

[BEATSTEETGA]

I don't know if you heard.. But Tony Randall died acouple years ago.

[meanwiddlekid]

I don't know if you read English, but the sentence "He'd be almost 90 today" means "He would be almost 90 today",taking into account the fact that he died.  If he was still alive, then you would say "Tony Randall is almost 90 today."

Understand?

[jpreston1620]

Of course Dorothy doesn't appear all too healthy; We're used to seeing her in a 1950's context... Let's remember that the clip we're watching is 15 years later. Few of us look as good today as we did 15 years ago...

[Muffy2314]

regardless, i have a medical background so i think i can assess people physically. this is more than menopause or aging. her speech is different and she was always a clear enunciator. in a 1960 clip she looks stunning--a mere 5 years before and she was clear as a bell in her speech. aging does not affect your speaking ability.

[haffmonty]

Excuse me? Age doesn't affect your speaking ability? Ever heard of false teeth? No veneers and implants in 1965! False teeth and bridges were common, and ALWAYS affected speech. And...aging DOES affect your vocal chords. You, as a medical professional, should know this. Unless your medical background is of a chiropractic nature :p.

[calalilygirl]

She was only 51 or 52 at that time for gosh sakes--vocal cords affected? Come on! Dental appliances and menopause don't cause speech slurring! How do you even know she had dental appliances?

[calalilygirl]

Look at the clip of her in 1963 of the Kangaroo Referee--she's stunning just 2 years prior to this. Speech eloquent--no slurring.

[MaryAliceMaryAlice]

Dorothy had a noticable 'sibilant s' in her speech as can be seen in older What's My Line episodes. That being said, I do not notice any pronounced slurring in this episode. I noticed, however, that Arlene looks and sounds tired also. Maybe they'd had a late night or a couple of martinis at lunch? Who knows? They still performed well in this episode. I wonder what time of day these shows were taped at?

[calalilygirl]

it may have been not quite slurring, but her speech is different from her clearer episodes. I don't really attribute any of her appearance to her death. I would not rule out foul play. I had also picked up on the fact that Arlene seemed a bit "draggy" as someone else put it and yes they looked like they both may have had some drinks before. Soulier, a frequent commenter may know or the book may shed light on when taping was. Appreciate your objective, diplomatic comment.

[Muffy2314]

Dorothy doesn't look all that healthy here--may have had something physically going on. Not sure whether alcohol was involved-she looks bloated/puffy. i always remembered her as glamorous and very put together. A very sharp player. And she actually was very sharp here on this last night.

[chrishanson70]

Is it just me or does Dorothy sound a bit drunk? In the introductions she looks sweaty and sounds to say "Toony Randel".

[SueBeaWho]

Just started watching it, but yeah poor Dorothy looks like she's almost in the throes of the DT's. I am sure her death was accidental. If one is not a drinker, one might not understand - but she looks like alcohol is almost dripping out of her. I LOVE her and am sad that she had that demon in life to fight with. Plus if she popped pills - well sadly her body said NO MORE and she died. :-(

[cadrolls1]

SueBeaWho, Muffy, Chrishanson, You were used to seeing Dorothy 10 years earlier when she was younger. The same voice transformation happened to Lucille Ball too. Are you people saying that she was drunk too? Please, obtain a brain!

[Imthecuteone]

i agree, could also have been menopause. People who I have seen that were over 50 do look a little different from 40, like looking a little puffy. I think her looks changed such as her hairstyles. With this being 1965, I don't think she would want to be using hairstyles from the 1950's. Maybe then if she used a 1950's hairstyle, she might look like she did then? Not sure. But I do like her having some bangs curled to the front a bit.

[Muffy2314]

i believe i've been blessed with a sufficient brain.

[Muffy2314]

Agree, you're making an accurate, honest observation--nothing mean about it. i loved her too.

[haffmonty]

She had a funny jaw. She always sounded a tad slurry.

[calalilygirl]

No she didn't

[ClassicShowbiz]

I find the line of questioning of the first guest hilarious - his Sikh garb has the panel thinking he must be some kind of mystic.

[prchristman]

Thanks! I've seen this show before, noting Dorothy Kilgallen (her last appearance, as she was found dead in her apartment the next day). Nothing in her demeanor shows depression. I can't believe suicide. Murder? Her death was ruled accidental, coming from alcohol and barbiturates (but not at a high level expected if someone was intent on killing her). No signs of violence or trauma. I will not rule murder out, but I'm dubious. Motive? Her stated intent to reveal the truth on JFK's assassination.

[rjvonbokern]

To take that a step further, Dorothy had just

done an extensive interview w/Jack Rudy [who

killed Lee Harvey Oswald] & her notes from

that interview were never found. Also, John

Daly's father-in-law was Earl Warren who was

the chairman of the Warren Commission, who

investigated JFK's death. That commission also

included President Ford.

[prchristman]

Did Dorothy extensively interview Jack Ruby? Debatable. Gerald Posner claimed she merely was among a group of reporters who interviewed. Vincent Bugliosi quoted Dallas-area reporters as saying she never got an exclusive interview. But other sources say she talked with Ruby for eight minutes but never published what she learned from Ruby because she was saving it for a book. Lee Israel's "Kilgallen" should be read for a different viewpoint from Bugliosi. I doubt murder but keep an open mind.