12-Step Programs - A.E. #582

[oneadamtwelve86]

when i used to go to AA i was a christian. and i loved it. i cant say im against it now, the 12 steps are really good although i cant say they all are, some are just saying prayers.

looking back now it is a little bogus with the whole praying and god stuff, but working the 12 steps really can change a person.

really one of the best parts of the program is just the fellowship. they usually dont want to admit it, but its common sense, people who need to be sober do better with others like them

[K1dNaStyLovesElectro]

As a recovering Addict and an Atheist I'm sad that these guys bash on the 12 steps even though they do not suffer from this intense disease <-- progressive and usually fatal. and don't really know anything about it.

YOU GET TO MAKE UP YOUR OWN "GOD" IN THE !2-step PROGRAMS :D It can be ANYTHING. When I first went to meetings my higher power was Group. Of. Drunks (god) Anything will work as long as it gets you out of your diseased way of thinking Addicts and aloholics please thumb this up

[obgfoster]

I have known atheists who used A.A. They spelled "God" as "Group of Drunks" or "Good Orderly Direction" and never called on a skydaddy to get them sober

[lovefactorygirl]

If you were to take the time to get to know a few individuals who are doing well in their recovery & working the program as described in the Big Book, you'll find that they're not only responsible productive members of society, but also happy. So why not let them be? They're doing no harm to you. If you can "just quit" as you say, then you CLEARLY don't have an addictive personality, & a 12 step program is not for you. My hat is off to you. Quit sticking your nose in places it doesn't belong.

[moopism]

@lovefactorygirl The Harvard Medical School says that the vast majority of the people who successfully quit drinking for a year or more — eighty percent of them — do it alone, all by themselves, without any treatment program or "support group".

[lovefactorygirl]

@moopism Good for them :]

[moopism]

@lovefactorygirl Yes, it is good for them, and it just goes to show that the 12 step program and the big book are the addicts' version of the placebo; it's still a sugar pill.

[moopism]

@lovefactorygirl There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated.

Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction — Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.

[moopism]

@lovefactorygirl One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them.

[lovefactorygirl]

The AA program does not promote God, but a HIGHER POWER AS YOU UNDERSTAND IT. I give myself plenty of credit for how far I've come (2 years clean and sober), but I COULDN'T do it by myself. I needed the help of those in the fellowship. I'm NOT addicted to god or a higher power. I am addicted to drugs and alcohol, I just choose not to do them anymore. Addictive Personality has been recognized by the surgeon general as a mental ILLNESS, and for those who have it find it harder to quit.

[FM897]

The "higher power" doesn't have to be God (and shouldn't be). It can be the support of the group.

[Talamasca124]

@FM897 These twelve steps programs all tell you that you are a worthless piece of shit with out some higher power to prop you up. You substitute one crutch for another. They do not give you the tools do turn yourself around. Their success rate is no better than spontaneous remission.

[FM897]

@Talamasca124 You're absolutely right and I also dislike that part of it. What I'm saying is that you can take what you want from it and leave the rest. Personally, OA really helped me. However, I don't give credit to God (I am an atheist); I give credit to the support of the group members and my own hard work.

[CntrBrdr]

In the 1970's you could smoke in airplanes and restaurants

In the 1960's you could smoke in hospitals

In the 1950's surgeons would routinely smoke during open heart surgery

In the 1940's brides and grooms would light each others' cigarettes instead of kissing

In the 1930's schoolchildren ate cigarette butts for lunch

In the 1920's toddlers were given cigarette packs when leaving the dentist's office

In the 1910's everybody was just one big cigarette

lol

[SmokeRingsPipeDreams]

Penn & Tellers Bullshit did a show on AA and claimed that the rate of success for AA is the exact same as people quiting without AA. Also the steps in AA are very religious in nature. And they do tend to get people into a very cultist mindset. AA was created by religious people and is based on christianity and is a religious program.

[steptocheese]

I start NA meetings this friday

Marijuana is my god

[holio84]

Someone in AA always says that "80% of you will leave and go back out there". An 80% failure rate tells me that AA has some very serious flaws.

[lovefactorygirl]

@holio84 People that are in the program and relapse, relapse for one reason only: They are not working the AA program to the best of their ability. The mojority of those who relapse, either aren't working their steps, don't have a sponsor, stop calling their sponsor, or stop coming to meetings. It works if you WORK it.

[holio84]

@lovefactorygirl Horseshit !! Are you reading directly from the AA apologist play book? Quit lying to yourself and maybe you won't sound like such a phony to others.

[lovefactorygirl]

@holio84 What experience do you have with AA? There's no reason to talk shit on something you don't know anything about or have experience with. What's your resentment over?

[holio84]

@lovefactorygirl I get this feeling you are a real simpleton . . . so bye.

[GuacamoleKun]

@lovefactorygirl But.. of course some people won't be doing all the steps if many of the steps don't apply to them. What are atheists supposed to do? I guess I could admit there is a power greater than me that could help me, that being THE GROUP, but I couldn't sincerely ask God to "remove my shortcomings" because I simply don't believe it. It would feel like I was asking Santa. How is that helpful to an atheist???

[lovefactorygirl]

@GuacamoleKun True, but doing them to the best of your ability is what counts. There's a whole chapter in The Big Book dedicated to agnostics (I realize it's not the same as an athiest) and it has some interesting points. I have a hard time believing in a God sometimes, and during those times I either don't pray, or pray to "I don't know what", just to relieve stress and that works for me. Many people I know have the ocean as their "god", and that works for them.

[maemorri]

12-step programs are a tool to help people quit, but only a tool. The higher power does not have to be a spiritual thing. Some people have stated that their higher power is the police or the judge. They have submitted to the judge to make them quit, when they were not powerful enough to do it themselves. As to whether they work better or worse, I can't say.

[newcoyote]

@maemorri It is still a poor method because it externalizes. The one and single most important/effective thing I did when I stopped drinking(I was in BAD shape) was make a definitive decision to stop. No reservations. I (!) had to be accountable to myself. External authorities real or concocted can be evaded.

[Picaro1]

Suite the basters, if they are funded by the Federal or any government funds they are violating the 1st Amendment of the Constitution. Go to Gabito Grupos and find Suite 12 Step Programs.

There are 8 Federal Cases and I am working on the 9th. Contact your ACLU and make a complain.

[lovefactorygirl]

@Picaro1 As the 7th Tradition states: Every group ought to be fully self supporting, declining outside contributions, lest problems of money, property and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

[isegoria1]

Quitting is the EASY part

[jacoblandes]

In my experience, recovery works because it is a cooperative work with God (whether that is a Person, another aspect of existence, or what), that the spiritual fulfills you, while the pure will is only partial. Literal "submission" is simply inverting the original problem.

[WaywardSonCRO]

that crap works in the same percentage of cases as the recovery without the program works with just a power of the will, so it's for ignorant and weak people

[ARedButtonThatSaysDo]

Porn is a good idea. Anyone who says it can lead to real acts is like saying a man who has sex with his wife will want to have sex with other women.

[rodgierad]

I have been sober for 13 years-sober through a 12 step program.

My experience was not mandated. The experience was not religious at all, and I never felt any pressure to be religious or believe in anything EXCEPT that there was at least one other power outside myself-anything but ME. It was clear I couldn't change myself. Call it love, human spirit, the collective support of a group-whatever.

I needed a cure for an ego problem-I'm still not sure how it worked-but religion was not involved.

[1971ojoalparche1971]

rodgierad:

By definition, asking you to believe that there's something that is not you in order for the process to work, is a religious belief.

But other than semantics, I congratulate you and I hope that you will stay out of it for the rest of your life, and that you will make an example for others with that serious problem.

Rock on man!

[rodgierad]

"...asking you to believe that there's something that is not you in order for the process to work"

Not necessarily. Will the tide go out today? I believe from experience that it will. Is that a guarantee?  No, but having faith in something is not by definition "religious".

I do believe that groups of people can achieve things that individuals cannot. That's not religious-It can be attributed to culture or evolution-but it's still faith in something unseen which is not religious.

[1971ojoalparche1971]

The motion of the tides has nothing to do with faith. The tides will rise and fall whether you believe in them or not, and there's plenty of empirical and experimental proof about gravitational pull and its effects. It existed before we even knew about it.

I agree that groups can accomplish more than individuals, but I fail to see the relevance in that statement for your case. How does the collective accomplishment of many prove divine intervention?

[rodgierad]

Who said anything about divine intervention? I just said that people together can accomplish different things than individuals can alone-end of point.

"It existed before we even knew about it."

Technically, from a philosophical standpoint, you can't prove that, all of us just believe (and most of us agree) that such is true.

I'm not out to argue with you...I believe we have the same point in mind. The word "faith" is a little dicey.

[1971ojoalparche1971]

"Who said anything about divine intervention?"

You did:

"That's not religious-It can be attributed to culture or evolution-but it's still faith in something unseen which is not religious."

Faith has nothing to do with the real explanation for something man! Whether one understands it or not, it does NOT mean it cannot be explained by others, thus leaving faith out completely.

[rodgierad]

"It can be attributed to culture or evolution"

Sort of missed the point...

Faith in a group's protection and support is part of human evolution/psychology,

otherwise humans probably wouldn't be a social species...

where do you get the "divine intervention" in that? YOU said "divine intervention"!

Why does that word "faith" incite such a response? That word can be readily used in a non-spiritual, non-religious context.

[rodgierad]

"Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing."

It's really not a scary word...

[1971ojoalparche1971]

Just forget it. I guess you can't realize YOU quit alcohol, and nothing else did it for you.

[rodgierad]

Well, I'm genuinely interested...

I tried (as others have) for years and years to quit. I did a lot of things I swore I never would, and nothing could stop me.

But then I did. I stopped after being surrounded by people trying to do the same thing.

I'm saying it could be psychological, chemical, who knows...

What could you attribute it to, human ingenuity? I couldn't do it to save my life one minute, then I could?

[1971ojoalparche1971]

Quitting any addiction is a terribly difficult thing to do, as you know: just thinking about it terrorizes you, and the idea defeats you. I can't say why you were succesful, but I can tell you that we have the capacity to realize things we didn't before, when faced with truly life-threatening issues.

The human mind is an awesome thing, I don't claim to know it fully...cont

[moephan311]

wow. these people are wrong. no one can be mandated to a twelve step program. unless its a gov't financed twelve step program. twelve step programs arent affiliated with gov't or ANYTHING AT ALL. and there is no serveillance at any times. i dont know how i feel about the issue at hand here, but this guy has his facts wrong.

[repubsuck]

Actually the courts can require someone to attend a 12-step program. I know people who have to attend meetings and get a paper signed by the group's leader to prove to the courts they attended. If they didn't have the papers signed they could be put in jail.

[NinjaGhostScorpion]

The courts do love making loopholes with the Constitution, don't they?

[NinjaGhostScorpion]

I'm a Protestant, which is a far cry from Atheism, but I do know that those who say you're powerless against alcohol are fools. Nobody twists your arm to graba bottle. That was your choice.

I believe that a 1-step recovery program can be just as successful, maybe even more successful, than the 12-step recovery program.

Step 1-Just stop drinking so damn much.

Don't think about it. Just do it. It's not that tough.

[rodgierad]

Wow...you have no concept of addiction whatsoever. An addict/alcoholic basically picks up a hammer and bashes themselves in the head over and over night after night and get up the next morning and do it again, even when the "high" isn't any longer attainable...it's a powerful phenomenon, and even people with the strongest will-power in all other areas are unable to break free.

You may want to do some research and educate yourself before offerring advice.

[NinjaGhostScorpion]

I did my research, and that's how I came to that conclusion. I used to smoke 2 packs a day, then went down to 1 pack, then a half-pack, and now, I'm down to 5 cigarettes a day, taking breaks from smoking on weekends. And I took control, alone. No nicotine gum or anything. I just decided to slow down on my own.

It is possible.

[fxzwart]

There's a scientific research with (ex) smokers: the people who've smoked in the passed had twice as much of particular cells (or something) in their brain which will make people going to smoke again the way they did before much easier when they will pick up that first cigarett.

These cells keep being twice as much than in the brain of "normal" people even after many of years.

I know I'm powerless over drugs, alcohol etc, I've proved it many times to myself, so I quit with help from a program.

[rodgierad]

Agreed 100%.

It's so hard to explain addiction and recovery to people. Sadly (and then luckily!!!), most of us learn the hard way.

[fxzwart]

Hey rodgierad,

It's indeed hard o explain it to people, but I can'blaim them. As I also didn't know hen I came to my first meeting why people were still coming even when they had multiple years of cleantime. I thought you just go to a shrink/rehad, lay on a couch and look at some inksplatters on a paper and he/she tells you some things and you're cured. Now I know better haha.

I wish you all the best and a lot of love!

Hug,

F.

[Hopeful71]

Putting aside the theist 12 step route to focus on the powerlessness issue. The truth is some people are lacking the same coping skills that a lot of us take for granted. Unfortunately these skills cannot be 'rationalized' into existence

Call it emotional weakness but even so, you can't just tell them (or have them tell themselves) to be stronger. They need help, they need support, & really they need dogmatic principles (reason religion is so often used) to help re-wire their brains

[mattmeeks]

yes, an addict is powerless over the urges they have in their addiction, but they ARE responsible for their actions regarding that addiction. In particular, the 4th step forces an addict to confront all the damage they've done and face the reality of their addiction. The problem I see is that 12 step groups claim they are the ONLY solution, and that the vast majority of individuals in them do not actually work the steps, they just show up to meetings.

[fxzwart]

Maybe one group says that a 12 step program is the ONLY solution, but it is nowhere said in the program itself, these people from whom you seem to have heard it are expressing their own opinion I think.

Further more about the people who only show up at the meetings and do not work the steps: that is their choice.

The program only SUGGESTS these steps which other people before them worked and have worked for them.

[mattmeeks]

I think that there are some individuals who replace their addiction to unhealthy behaviors or substances with 12 step groups, and it's true that superficially, the 12 steps appear religious, it's possible for an atheist to work the 12 steps (do a google search for atheist 12 steps). to say that 12 step groups absolve an individual of their responsibility just shows ignorance of the deeper work of the 12 steps.

[ruin3r]

Some of the people who come out of these AA programs are deeply disturbed individuals, think of it this way:

Their addiction to alcohol lead them to some sort of act of violence against another human being, or a DWI, or messing their life up enough that it lead them to rehab and/or 12 step program.. now replace their addiction with a religion that removes all personal responsibility and allows them to be forgiven for ANY action they take in life, and wonder what might they do next? terrifying.

[AshillaBeige]

That's a really good observation.

Sounds almost like... conditioning towards sociopathy.

[klangsteiner]

For those who's addiction to drugs and/or alcohol has landed them in the court system, I believe that a secular alternative to AA should be provided. Unfortunately, few exist, especially in the city where I live. BTW, the recidivism rates for AA vs. alternatives is not well documented for 2 reasons. AA manipulates their stats and there are no good control groups to provide stats.

[kyokumajr]

Though Even the few studies that have been done, show that the effectiveness rate is the same as if you would not have gone to one of these groups, but rather quit by yourself.

[BlatzBeer]

@klangsteiner I was in a Texas Dept. of Corrections substance abuse program, and we were given a choice between AA, NA, Winner's Circle and SOS (Secular Organizations for Sobriety) groups. Unfortunately, out in the world, it was hard for me to find an SOS group close enough to attend weekly.

By the way, the federally-funded NIAAA did a 2001-2002 survey of 43,000 Americans and found that 75% of folks who found sobriety from alcohol dependence did it WITHOUT treatment or support groups (AA).

[ChuckyJesus666]

Years ago I dated a woman who was in AA. There's no doubt that she had replaced one addiction with another. She was freaked that I didn't believe in god and she dumped me because she found the idea so threatening to her whole higher power crap.

[kyokumajr]

Wow... that disturbing... :(

[fxzwart]

First of all, sorry to hear that.

I feel that that says more about the individual than about the program itself, it is nowhere suggested in the program to dump people for that reason.

Also, this one experience does not exclude that the program is no good and the program even says to not judge other people for their believe or disbelieve.

Good luck!

[ChuckyJesus666]

Well, if this has worked for you that's great. Again, my impression was that they subbed one addiction for another. If there are truly secular programs, I would encourage a freethinker to go in that direction. I almost never drink alcohol myself, so I haven't explored the different options out there for people who have a problem.

[fxzwart]

Let's say one addiction is subbed for another, the program teaches you to be loving and really makes you look to the things that you do and if you are not damaging anybody.

Drugs on the other makes addicts do crazy things, hurting themself and others.

So what's better (in this worst case)?

I see the program as some medicine to the disease of addiction, are you then addicted to that medicine? No!

You can't live well without, but take away all the medicines in the world and see what happens.