Well, not being answered, I'm out of here. Once again proving that most Rand haters don't have the intellect OR the BALLS to back up their accusations and assertions. It's truly pathetic :-(
So you can attack her all you want, and no, I don't give a fuck about HER, or HER ideas. My ideas just HAPPEN to be her ideas. She doesn't have a license to the concept of rational objectivity or individual sovereignty. That's what I'm defending. Fuck this, I'm done.
accept social security (which she had paid into her entire American life, so to say she was rejecting her own philosophy is hair-brained) and any SANE person would do the same if they couldn't, otherwise, afford treatment.
Once again, this has NOTHING to do with the ideas themselves. They exist WITHOUT her. Someone else would have thought of them because they speak to the nature of RATIONAL OBJECTIVITY, which is an idea as OLD as Aristotle.
Note, it is the breadth, width, and height of Festdir's capacity to debate the logic of a philosophic and epistemological doctrine.
If you thought it was wrong that people wholesale slaughter cows for food, but you were starving to death and the only thing you could eat to survive was a cow, you would reject your believe that cows should not be the primary by eating?
Her life, something that she loved, was endangered and the only way to keep living was to
Everyone, please look how festdir runs and hides. First off, he won't admit that when a person has something stole from them, they have every Right to get what they can back, and it's not hypocrisy.
Secondy, he makes a "factual" claim, but isn't willing to put his money where his mouth is. Which of course means, he knows it's not a factual claim, but a LIE.
@festdir Do you understand how social security works? It's YOUR money. Jesus Christ, kid. She didn't really use a false name. Anne O'Connor. O'Connor was her last name upon marriage. Ayn Rand was her pseudonym. But even if she did, it was her money.
@Khayman8888 "Do you understand how socSec works?"
Yes.
"It's YOUR money"
Apparently you don't. It isn't 'your money', when you pay in you are paying for today's Senior Citizens, when you collect SocSec, you are collecting money from those that are still working.
But thank you for letting me know your level intelligence. It is very telling.
@festdir LOL. How is that even a refutation? Are you pwning me with the fact that the specific dollar bills you pay in don't actually go to you? We have a winner! It's an investment that you're required to pay into in order to take out of. Automatic deductions. It's aN ROI. You cannot claim it if you didn't pay into it. There is no way for you to dumb down your logical fallacies and intuitive-declarative garbage. I "lost" to myself, right? Hilarious.
Once again, I prove that another Rand hater is nothing more than a big mouthed, anonymous lying hypocrite who doesn't have the balls to put his money where his big mouth is.
Hey everyone, just look at how this dumbfuck lies & manipulates in a LAME attempt to "prove" his point. All of a sudden he went from a $1,400,000,000,000 "nest egg", to "it's secure for forty years". That's not the same thing dumbass! Socialist Security is now PAY AS YOU GO. Money is extracted straight from younger people and given to older people. It's only "secure" as long as those young people are willing to voluntarily fork it over.
No one is here, but you and I...but that is 1 more that have your book.
"went from"
Actually, I mentioned both. You are unable to concede the FACT of $1.4, so I have moved on to another point disproving your statement that 'SocSec is bankrupt'-a statement you have yet to offer anything other than your uninformed opinion.
"as long as those ppl fork it over"
1)Everything would be bankrupt if it didn't have an income, retard.
Perhaps when you finish High School and move out of your mommy's basement you may learn something about economics and honesty. I doubt it, but perhaps.
@festdir the ignorant: "You are unable to concede the FACT of $1.4...". WHAT "fact"? The FACT that there is no $1,400,000,000,000 "nest egg"? That fact? The fact that it's in nothing but IOU's?
I guess according to YOUR economics this country is in GREAT shape. After all, we have a $15,000,000,000,000 "next egg"! Oops, sorry, that's a $15,283,323,800,000 nest egg according to the official 'U.S. National Nest Egg Clock'.
Or a security so secure that it is used as essentially currency for international finance....if only it was as 'rock solid' as a bet made on youtube comments, from white trash.
Regardless...you stated SocSec was bankrupt.
If you are right, then no one will receive their Soc Sec check next month.
You should really hold your breath on that.
Go to Somalia...no SocSec there. You will LOVE it...and so will America.
@festdir the lying ignoramus: "you stated SocSec was bankrupt".
Really please document WHERE I said "Social Security is bankrupt".
Your problem is that your just not able to make crucial distinctions, but that's to be expected from a child :-(
Oh, and speaking of my bets, what are you waiting for? If you're not willing to put your money where your big fucking mouth is, then you obviously know you're wrong.
So you're not only a fucking idiot, you have no memory either? I've already offered you AT LEAST two bets:
You said Ayn Rand used a "false name" and you said the government of Somalia doesn't force anyone to do anything. Once again,$10,000 cash says you're wrong on both points.
Also, WHERE did I say "Social Security is bankrupt"?
You're not only a liar, you're an anonymous fucking coward. Poor baby, got no balls?
I guess that's that. If you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is, it simply proves you dont know what you're talking about AND you're a fucking pussy. Later coward :-(
You mean by "running away", offering you $10,000 cash?
Once again:
I guess that's that. If you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is, it simply proves you dont know what you're talking about AND you're a fucking pussy.
This idiot said there is $1,400,000,000,000 in a Social Security "nest egg".
Then he says it's in "the most trusted CREDIT in the world".
Next he says I have never even taken "Econ 101"?
He accuses ME of not knowing economics 101 when HE doesn't even know the difference between having a $1,400,000,000,000 "nest egg"and having $1,400,000,000,000 in CREDIT?
@festdir Enjoy your bankrupted Social Security and your delusions that the American government is doing real good things for the poor.
What a fucking sheep. This is why you can't make a single logical argument and had to rely on ad hominem. You don't know fuck all. It's all way over your head, and you rely solely on your emotional whims rather than point by point understanding. Why don't you actually read some of the works you're lambasting and not just reviews of your leftist heroes?
1) If something is TAKEN from you BY FORCE are you a hypocrite for taking it back?
2) You said she used a false name to get SS. So why didn't the government go after her for fraud?
3) You made the claim the Somalia government doesn't force anyone to do anything. I said if you believe that then put your money where your big fat mouth is. You then proceeded to ran away. Well, how about it? $10,000 cash says I can prove it does.
1) Really? It's not taken by force? Since you're too much of a fucking pussy to bet on Somalia, then how much do you want to bet on this?
2) If she used a "false name" she would have been prosecuted for FRAUD, dumbass. Are you really that ignorant?
3) If the Somalia government doesn't force anything, why don't you take the bet? Simple, because, once again, you don't know what you're talking about.
@sgapplebee 1) "Really?" Yep. Live by YOUR convictions & get out of MY country, pussy.
You will no longer have to pay those terrible US taxes.
2) She used a name she wasn't known as, in order to hide it from her easily manipulated pieces of white trash. Again, AM-radio-parakeet...she hid it for trash like you
3) Be a man, and make your statement. Because, once again, you are a lonely loser piece of white trash
Here's to hoping you beat #THREE MILLIONTH on the bestseller list!
There are two books that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
Kids, stop reading the cliffnotes. Read "The Virtue of Selfishness", go watch videos of Ayn Rand herself. Her philosophy simply cannot be interpreted to justify oppression or exploitation. She is STRICTLY against gain through another's loss. She didn't just challenge the very lazy ethics of altruism, she rationalized the function of morality and supported an ethical code that involved fair treatment of everyone and contribution to a whole community.
I think you missed the point of the book. Wow are you stupid! Seriously? Howard Roark, EXPLAINING his philosophy to the PUBLIC??! Not only would that have ruined the book, It shows you're not that bright.
He just should have said, no real defense can ever be given unless you also have the right to face your accuser or to have evidence of an individual or individual victims. No victim = no crime. Until there is an individual victim or evidence leading to an individual victim you can never put up a defense. That's why if you kill a bunch of people you get judged on each individual count of murder. Other than that it's up to you vs. the conflicting interest of the State
@DUCATIPUNK well stated.ayn rand was the creator of a morally and intellectually bankrupt philosophy.and a hypocrite to boot.she had no problem availing herself of medicare or cashing a social security cheque...oh and christ she was ugly.
Ah yes, another ignoramous who doesn't understand what a hypocrite is. Tell me genius, is someone a hypocrite if they take money back that was taken by force from them in the first place?
Hey dumb ass, there's a BIG DIFFERENCE between paying for roads, defense, police...etc (as the founders made clear in the founding documents), and STEALING from one American in order to give to another, or STEALING from Americans in order to give to other nations.
If you don't understand the differencem then YOU'RE the idiot. And you're WAY over your head.
Besides, I'm still waiting to hear the example of hypocrisy...welll?
All of Ayn Rands political philosophy can be summed up in a single question:
Are the needs (or supposed needs) of one human being a mortgage on the freedom of another?
That's the ONLY question that needs to be answered because government must either protect a citizens "Right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness", or the government must force one person to be another’s keeper (from each according to his ability to each according to his need"
@sgapplebee So we all know what Rand thought. How about the greatest inventor and wealth creator in history, Nikola Tesla:
"This new world must be a world in which there shall be no exploitation of the weak by the strong, of the good by the evil; where there will be no humiliation of the poor by the violence of the rich; where the products of intellect, science and art will serve society for the betterment and beautification of life, and not the individuals for achieving wealth."
Ayn Rand would agree COMPLETELY with this entire quote except for the very last line. If the ideas of a human being brings about the "betterment and beautification of life", they should be rewarded for it and not punished for it.
No matter how much money a Tesla, Edison, Gates, Jobs...etc, makes during their lifetime, it will be NOWHERE NEAR the betterment and wealth they created.
@sgapplebee what a disgusting philosophy you believe in. you desire to live in a world where the lucky, the successful, and the privileged need not be concerned with the well being of humanity. a world entirely fueled by greed. ayn rand clearly had a pathological disposition. shes fond of capitalism because it rewards psychopathy. this is a country of 300mil, the bottom 30% own as much money as 6 walmart execs. i can safely say that "rational self interest" is not improving lives.
I disagree. Those who deny Reason can EASILY be conquered by it. That is, IF the government quit FORCING those of use who USE Reason to pay for those animals and human parasites who DO NOT.
I would love to "leave them alone" if they would only leave ME alone. But that's not going to happen because they NEED producers in order to PLUNDER from them.
However, I do agree with most of what you have posted on this site :-)
Fact: There are ONLY two ways for human beings to deal with one another--through Force or Persuasion. It will ALWAYS come down to one or the other. So, on any given point, if you ever resort to the use of force (or hire another to do it for you) then you have no right to complain when another uses force against you.
If you hire the government to force others to give you what YOU want, you have no right to complain when others hire the government to force you to give them what THEY want.
If you hire the government to force others to give to the causes YOU believe necessary, you have no right to complain when others hire the government to force you to give to the causes THEY believe necessary.
If you hire the government to force others to live by the values YOU believe are moral, you have no right to complain when others hire the government to force you to live by the values THEY believe are moral.
If you act like an animal, expect to be treated like one.
Obviously, animals don't form governments. However, human beings who wish to ACT LIKE ANIMALS (meaning they wish to Force instead of Persuade), vote for immoral politicians in order to get them to STEAL for them or for a cause they support.
So in fact, they're actually much worse than animals because they can know right from wrong, but choose not to.
All of Ayn Rands political philosophy can be summed up in a single question:
Are the needs (or supposed needs) of one human being a mortgage on the freedom of another?
That's the ONLY question that needs to be answered because government must either protect a citizens "Right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness", or the government must force one person to be another’s keeper (from each according to his ability to each according to his need". It MUST be one or the other…Period!
No individual built any structure larger than a simple log home. If you even today build a home you need help to set trusses, or the lumber you buy is made by others at factory's run by workers, and transported over roads built by still others to get to your door.No one built a sky scraper and the rant that rand has Roark yammering about is not only simple minded but stupid and holds no water.Its a fantasy for people who think more of them self then is a reality.Rand only emboldens narcissists.
@sonrouge I have, and I have also read Atlas Shrugged. I see no value to her premise that these so called engines of society are the driving force that should be allowed to run unregulated. To an extent this is reasonable but not to the extent that Rands paranoid mind gives them. She gives us a false choice, either full unregulated laissez fair capitalism or corrupt welfare states with government controlling everything. Rand is black and white and the world is many shads of gray. Rand was wrong
Lets put this into other terms. Rand was fundamentally wrong on her assumptions and this was further exacerbated by her unwillingness to ever look critically at her own hypothesis. Let's say a farmer is Roark and the Ox he used to plow his farm was the workers he used to build his building. By Rands belief the farmer can have a great idea on how to use his land but if he neglects his Ox and treats is as rand advocates how long before the ox dies of neglect and then the farmer?
Rand was nothing but a walking contradiction, she goes on about the rights of individuals then says that the Europeans taking the land from the Natives in America was right because they did not use the land the way it should have been used, no individual ownership. She took Social Security under her husbands name of O'Connor and Medicare, and said that smoking was mans conquering of fire, then got lung cancer. LOL what a dumb cunt.
Do you know WHAT a contradiction is? If a person is FORCED to pay for something they DO NOT want, is it a contradiction for them to take back what they can get?
@sgapplebee Are you in your simple minded way saying "forced" as in taxes? If so no one would pay for anything in this county, roads would be owned by the wealthy and if you can not pay for their use you don't use then, the same with fire Dept's. If you don't pay your home burns. lands would be privately owned, that means fuck tard that all the parks we all use as public lands would be owned by some corporation, if not exploited and ruined for their resources would be a playground for the rich
So you're so fucking stupid that you believe Americans would just sit back and watch this country COLLAPSE and do NOTHING about it? And you say I"M "simple minded"?
@sgapplebee Rand worked for the Willkie campaign, a dark horse Republican. She may not have called herself a Republican but like many of their ideas and worked for the party. You don't seem to know much about Rand for all this reading you do. What is it you read, Archie Comics?
@sgapplebee First of While E. Super Genius, I never said Rand "was a Republican" I said that we the living will throw out the Republicans in 12. Second I don't go for this answer yes or no shit you seem to think will back someone in a corner, and you obviously don't know how to even use the loaded question. Since I never said Rand was a Republican but she did work for the election of some Republicans I don't have to answer as I never made the statement While E.
@sgapplebee You did not answer my question, If the building was built to the specifications as was agreed to, then after the fact changed adding the changes, when is it not Rorks building to blow up, when is the property of the person footing the bill? If I buy a painting and then add to it by painting an extra figure on it, its not the artists right to break into my home and burn it. Your a fucking retard. This idea of individual is nonexistent. No one got her on their own.
Hey dumb fuck. You can run away all you want, but you're showing what a stupid fucking COWARD you are by not wanting to answer the question that MUST BE ANSWERED before YOU can even ask YOUR questions.
Yes or No: Did Roark give Keating the Blue Prints under the condition that it would be build EXACTLY how it was designed?
We all got where we are by building on others ideas and inventions, no one lives in a vacuum and this idea of a creator class is one step away from the ideas held by the Nazi's. That there is some superman class that everyone else sucks off of. In reality its the capitalist on the top of the heap who makes money from the work of those who actually do the work that are the leaches. They do nothing and get all the reward. You are most likely not one of them but you still suck their dick.
The Building was private property, Lets take this to the reductio ad absurdum, Let's way the building was built a promised, and once finished it was immediately remodeled to the same end as in the movie. It was private property and he destroyed another mans private property, you loose on every argument and its a stupid movie.
Rand has used the individual excuse to destroy personal property because it was a personal idea of another. What if the person who developed the sub structure used in this type of building did not like the way the other buildings were built using his ideas and destroyed them? This kind of self centered narcissistic ideas are not only dangerous they boarder on mentally ill. I am sure Hitler if you delve in to his personality felt much the same way and would have thrown rand in the ovens.
This is one of the dumbest movies I have ever seen. Rand was one of the most narcissist people I have ever read. She contributed nothing and thought the world of herself. Sure, a architect is doing to blow up a building because a few balcony's were put on it. How simplistic can a movie get? And the speech was supposed to sway a jury that his act of vandalism was justified? Its stupid and those who think its good writing are as deluded as the idiot Rand.
@edteach2u Sure if you see it in an objective way... from my point of view the building is the individual , your own ideas and your own creation she used the building so people could understand this more easily ... You can choose to destroy it if you created it.
If beethoven would have decided to destroy the original and only copy of moonlight sonata
@Necrophogist He gave up his right to the building when he freely gave it to the other architect. Not only that but the analogy she used is so shallow and wrong to get the point across it makes for a shallow sophomoric movie that is lone and boring. When you hire an architect to give you plans you have purchased those plans, its now yours and when you build the project and make changes its your property, this idiot Rand creates a contradiction, she has someone destroy personal property
@sgapplebee Rand is easily dismissed ass wipe, Roark built nothing, it was the workers who built every building put up. Your obvious ideology of favor the rich as an elite class or the individual is a myth. The silly court room rant would not have persuaded an Eskimo to put on a coat in January. You seem to be a narcissist as Rand was and when I went to school only the narcissists seemed to like this POS book. You must jack off to her Superman Roark and her twisting of Nietzsche. TARD
What's wrong, can't answer a SIMPLE QUESTION? Gee, I guess in order to answer the question, you must have to AT THE VERY LEAST watched the movie or read the book. Talk about a narcissist! You're such an EGOMANIAC you attempt to comment on something you know NOTHING of? What a dumb fuck!
@sgapplebee The idea of blowing up a building because someone added some balcony's is a very stupid plot line. To enforce such a stupid idea it would have to have been held in a contract that was signed not some verbal between two people once removed that can not be enforced. No, he did not have the right to request that no changes be made. This is as stupid as me putting up a slogan on a wall and not telling anyone I did it but wanted no one to change or use it. Its just stupid like you fucker
@sgapplebee I have read, and watched the movie of both the fountainhead and atlas shrugged. I am also reading the excellent book by Jennifer Burns Goddass of the market Ayn Rand and the American Right a book that exposes her for the shallow narcissist she was. But you are like all right wing idiots you will never look or read anything that may challenge your view. The world is black and white and thats the way it is in your small little mind.
There you go again, commenting on something you know NOTHING of. MOST of what I watch or read goes against my philosophy. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is? $10,000 cash says I've read, or listened to, AT LEAST twice what you've read over the last 2 decades.
@sgapplebee I love these I am smarter than you bets. Who would judge? You? LOL Idiots read philosophy but they just don't understand it. How do I know you are not some 12 YO living in your moms basement trolling? You most likely are. You make assumptions that are not only stupid but make no sense. You must be a person who lives with mama and because of the timing of your posts I would say just got out of school. LOL Have you even seen a vagina yet other than NG?
Then take the bet dumb fuck. You're no different than any other big mouth anonymous COWARD who posts on here. IDENTIFY YOURSELF and bring it on. What are you so afraid of?
@sgapplebee Its a stupid bet that can not be enforced any more than telling someone that they cant change a building design. I see you at least you learned something as stupid as the theme of the book. LOL I can just see you know, saying I have read 10 books, 50 books then crying out Infinity. LMFAO your a retard not an individualist. You cant even argue your own position. A position you don't understand. LOL Don't you have home work to do?
It would be easy to "enforce", all you would have to do is not be a fucking anonymous coward, identify yourself, and we could begin; but since your mouth is bigger than both your heart or your brain, that's not going to happen is it?
All my information is right there on my youtube and facebook pages. Your turn.
@sgapplebee OK My name is Daryl Kunde and I live at 179 Matelski Road Gaylord Michigan, come on over and I will kick your fucking bitch ass punk. LOL Now whats your name coward?
Are you kidding me? What's my name? You really are a fucking idiot arent you? Don't know how read? Don't know how to click on someones NAME or what Facebook is either? Guess what dumbass, I'm in Michigan too.
Since you were too much of a chicken shit to take my first bet, then here's another. 10k cash says I can knock your stupid ass out or submit you before you could knock me out or submit me. Whatcha say Kunte? If that's your real name.
@sgapplebee I can tell by the way you write that you do not have an education past 8th grade. I will take that bet and since I carry a CCW I would most likely just shoot your bitch ass and save the welfare office some cash. LMAO. Your IQ would make for a very cold room temperature. LOL. Your a fool and Since it demeans me to talk to fools I am going to put you on ignore as you just seem to like to argue and doing that with you is fighting with an unarmed individual. You have my address idiot.
Thanks for proving my point. Not only are you too much of a fucking coward to take my first bet, you're too much of a fucking coward to take the second. I don't blame you though, being the coward and intellectual midget you are.
As to Welfare, MOST people collecting welfare are just like YOU. They HATE Ayn Rand as much you do. So they're your comrade brother parasites in action and philosophy. Don't you think its time for you to grow up and quit sucking off mommy government?
@sgapplebee You had no point. You obviously don't even know any thing of the history of Rand. Rand herself was on Social Security and Medicaid the last days of her pathetic life. She had lung cancer from smoking that she called mans triumph over fire. LOL Smoke up fuck tard. You are one of those tea bagger haters that hate gays, non Christians, and do you even know Rand hated Christians? Rand hated verything that was not exactly like her. You are a mental midget who talks out his asshole. seeya
Hey dumb ass, is it a contradiction to get money back from the government if it was taken from you in the first place WITHOUT your consent? Do you understand WHAT a contradiction is?
As to me, you OBVIOUSLY know NOTHING about me. I don't hate gays, I'm even FOR gay marriage numnuts. I'm ALSO a non christian myself, so how can I hate non christians? You really have issues dude. Perhaps you should quit whining for government to take care of you and grow up.
@sgapplebee You really have anger issues don't you? You may get some relief if you go beat your mother. LOL Give her a good ol kick in the cunt, that should make you feel better, and as Rand said don't feel any guilt because its all about you. LOL But one thing is for sure, by the way you talk you are not now and will never be the "superman" or "creator" that rand talked about, you are not even the secondary person she talked about, your the level she would have thrown in the trash. LMAO.
Bravo! Great arguments as usual. If you ever want to put your money were your big fucking ignorant mouth is, I'll be waiting. I know it's hard to save money when you're a parasite feeding at the public trough, but perhaps your mommy will help you.
@edteach2u The individual is the building when you copy or let others decide for you, you put a parasite on your creative imagination and you self destruct your individualism.
@Necrophogist This is non sense. every one has built on the people that came before him. Lets take this stupid analogy of the self the building. No one has just created a sky scraper out of nothing, it comes from the past successes and failures of those who built before. From the time someone used fire to cook meat to someone who cooked with spices and others who used clay to make a pot and then someone used that pot to cook in, every one builds on the ideas of those who came before.
So glad this was made when it was, if they made it today, half of the time allocated to this speech would have been replaced with a sex scene, a few explosions and possibly a car chase.
@AYNfeelingRANDy I much prefer the movie Titanic. It's more real, it looks like when things go wrong, whether to save someone, you start with the first class, locking the third in the basement, of course.
There are many comments addressing that Mrs. Rand's message is absolutely relevant today. There are many more facited idea's playing the part of today.
The idea of Roark was that he held in his heart what he decided to on an idea. To remain the same. Architecture is a metaphor. Constructing a way of life. His buildings were an extension of his self.
Do not take Mrs. Rand's writings as literal. The ideas are in there, waiting for a interpretation.
there comes a time when this shit just isn't relevant - and that is when the rulers of all start working for the few. they amass all the wealth and exclusively compete with each other, and even despite outright failure they are supported. and who has to pay for it? at this point I would rather see the global economic system crumble than watch this slow motion train wreck.
well actually you can help the poor by destroying the rich. and lifting the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down. and you can further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred... and so on.
it's just that the very wealthy wouldn't like it very much, just as king louise and his queen marie antoinette weren't big fans of the whole "revolution" thing.
Self-serving ideological pantomiming. Capitalism exploits, the end. Ayn Rand is a wonderful writer; her work is inspirational, and I know her heart is in the right place, but I can never as a coloured woman of the working class support those who defend the upper echelons that build and feed a factory of money-grubbing, war, and dependence and shame, that exports labour and devalues the human right to settle and integrate and participate in a society that is totally backwards and needs CHANGE.
This clip never fails to wow me. Libs are always talking about how conservatives don't care about people. They don't get that that's because we care about "persons" instead. The individual. And we believe in the individual to both take care of and better themselves.
@thephilosofer87 ~My problem with Conservatives isn't that they are so focused on the "person or individual" than they are on the collectiveness of a society, but that try to use Jesus and Christian teachings, when in fact one has nothing to do with the other. This makes conservatives come across as liars and manipulators.
@nikkinew123 In your opinion they're unrelated - and Ayn Rand agrees with you - but would be absurd for a religious person, who honestly believes in christianity to not consider their politics a reflection of those views. You said they are liars and manipulators. What are they lying about? Their religious conviction or their relation of it to politics. If you agree they truly have religious convictions than you should believe their politics are a reflection of those views not a manipulation.
@thephilosofer87- I don't follow their so called religious convictions. They use "I'm a Christian & this is a Christian Nation" as a political platform, yet they want to create a society that doesn't reflect any real Christian values. So no, I don't believe that anyone who using their Christianity as platform wouldn't consider their politics a reflection of those views. Besides, why wouldn't one want to create a society that Jesus himself would approve of? And don't you answer to God first?
Respond to this video...ALSO~Take abortions. Their religious teaches that it's a sin to terminate a pregnancy & even if it goes against one's constitutional rights, they can't accept this Nation allowing such a thing. Now we are talking about life & death, but what about same sex marriage? Again, a reflection of religious beliefs! But feed the poor, take care of the elderly? You do that on your own and as a christian society, we don't enforce the most important teachings of Jesus.
@nikkinew123 Ok, I'm not sure I entirely follow your responses, but I will try to answer what I can. My question was do you believe Christians actually believe in christianity? If you answer no, then your simply stepping beyond your capabilities because no one can know what other people truly believe. If you say yes, then you should believe that they think their politics reflects their religion. You may think they are mistaken, but that is irrelevent. The point is they are not "liars".
@thephilosofer87 ~1) Maybe I haven't been clear. lol But I appreciate, even though we don't agree, we're speaking respectfully to each other :) ~You stated that it isn't that Consv. don't care about ppl, but that they put "individualism/ the persons" first! From your statement I responded by saying, that fact is why ppl find Christians to be hypocrites, liar & manipulators. You can't be a true Christian with the "me" mentality Rand teaches, she is an Atheist. I get her totally.
Respond to this video... 2) you asked what they are lying about. And I have to ask if I can answer that by starting a focusing or a clarification on Rand's teaching of economic or personal philosophies in comparison to Christianity, cuz I think this is where we lost each other. So my ques. is, What part her teachings are reflective of the teachings of Jesus? I don't think Jesus would approve of a society based on Atheist values. If we explore than, then we see how they're lying.
@nikkinew123 So you believe Christian Conservatives are lying because they agree with Rand, an athiest conservative? Why do assume that Christian's are being inconsistant with their values and not Rand? If you say it is because Rand didn't believe in giving to charity than you have found the major area of disagreement between Conservatives and Rand. Like I said, Reps give more to charity than Dems. Further, I personally DO think individualism/natural rights philosophy is baseless for athiests.
@thephilosofer87~1. I always hear this Consv. give more than "do you mean liberals?" Cuz that is simply not a fact. It could be your personal assumption, but not a fact. Liberals are know for their need to constantly give back. Our worlds revolve around this need. I can't speck for dems. who also consider themselves libs. But what makes us liberal is this need to help others & we are ridiculed for it. Where do you get this fact from? Fox News or some article you've read? Is there data on this
@nikkinew123 That is not my personal assumption; check your "facts": Google "Bleeding Heart Tightwads" by LIBERAL New York Times columnist Nicolas Kristof. Also check out "RealClearPolitics - Articles - Conservatives More Liberal Givers".
Further, conservatives do not ridicule liberals for being personally charitable. As you will see, we love charity. We ridicule liberals for trying to use the government to give charity.
@thephilosofer87 1. You want to base facts on a book written by a man who is apart of a conserv. think tank? There are many critics of his book. Esp. by other Social Science Researchers who claim he lacked traditional methods of research to gain a bias outcome. That he compared Religious Libs v Consrv. & Charity, they were the same. But when he compared religion to secular he lacked support. He than concluded by comparing rural to urban areas, not accounting for discretionary income...
Respond to this video... Much of his data was "self-reported surveys". He counted every penny of church charity, which can be seen as self interest (church's up-keeps etc.). But didn't account for monies given to like street beggar etc. He states that libs spend more time v consv. give more money. He chose not to use Representative National Samples, which would have changed the conclusion of his analysis. The point is, let's not base facts on a book seeking a bias outcome.
@nikkinew123 Ummm...did you read all of the Kristof Article? He quotes the author as saying he was sure Libs would be more generous. When the info came back, he was sure it was wrong. Looking for a bias outcome? You accused me of making an assumption about Cons. being more generous then libs, but it's you and most people that have made the wrong assumption.
Oh, and what's your beef with "self-reported surveys"? Is it Cons are known liars or Libs are known for their humility? Just wondering.
@thephilosofer87 Sef-reporting~If you ask someone, how much of your income do you give to charity? If they're religious, maybe they'll say "10 percent" cause they know it's the right answer. Data based on that, might not be exactly accurate. that's all. Brooks' analysis is bias because he is bias, I am and so are you.lol A study done by a non bias group, and if they use traditional methods (not seeking a bias conclusion) it would be more creditable & worth examining. I'd read it regardless!
@nikkinew123 "If they're religious, maybe they'll say "10 percent" cause they know it's the right answer."
First it was conservatives are liars about Jesus. Then you didn't believe they're more generous, cus 'everyone knows giving is part of liberal beliefs' and when I showed you the "facts" the conservatives who took the survey were dishonest, the man that wrote the book is untrustworthy - it seems anyone who contradicts your beliefs is a liar. So, I agree with you: your bias.
@thephilosofer87 I didn't say that liberals were more generous (although I believe we are by nature) but it was YOU, who tried to prove that conservatives were, based on a book. I didn't call him a lier, just biased & that he did the study & wrote the book with initial intension to prove this view point, which makes it's questionable. I told you that if the study is done by a bipartisan group of social sci,/oragnization it would be more believable. That is only fair.
@nikkinew123 I did say Conservatives are more generous and I have the stats to prove it. You called him biased, and you said that he set out looking to prove that conservatives were more generous. However, he was quoted in the article as saying that he expected liberals to be more generous. He even originally disbelieved the stats coming in contrary. If you don't believe he is telling the truth about this, then you think he is a liar.
@thephilosofer87 So even if Brooks is right, what does that have to do with the gov. collecting taxes to take care of the poor.? This is really where liberals find Conservative hypocrites. Wanting the gov. to dictate who you can marry who or a woman's right to choose based on religion, but we can't feed the poor through gov. based on religion. I personally think we should take care of the poor based on morality, not religion. It's just religious analogy show the hypocrisy in the logic.
@nikkinew123 1. I already said I agree with you about gay marriage, I don't know why you keep bringing it up. It's in rather poor taste, I think. 2. Government has a specific duty: protect us from crime and war. Abortion is murder - that makes it a crime. 3. You are right, we have a moral obligation to take care of the poor. We, as in individuals. Conservatives are not hypocrits, whether you choose to believe the stats or not: We believe in taking care of the poor and do just that.
@nikkinew123 Abortion: which part of the constitution guarantees an abortion? I want an exact quote. Gay marriage: yes, a relfection of their beliefs. What's your point? Before you said christian's politics DIDN'T match their beliefs. Now your angry that it does. Jesus and the poor: Jesus never spoke one word to a government. Individuals have the responsibility of feeding the poor. And the christian belief here is clearly seen too: republicans give more to charity than democrats.
@thephilosofer87 About abortion~ my only point there was the comparison of including anti-abortion values to creating a society that is reflective of their Christian values vs feeding the poor. But we should explore the hypocrisy in that. Consv. don't want the Gov. taking away your personal freedoms, YET they want a gov. to mandate a law reflective of (some of their) religious beliefs. Why shouldn't gays be allowed to marry? Bible vs Constitution pick one!
@nikkinew123 Actually, I agree with you. Marriage is sacred as a religious institution and as a Christian I believe it was intended for a man and a woman. But government should not be concerning itself with moral issues. That is not it's purpose.
When I read this in the book I reread it like ten times...
chess598 4 days ago
Well, not being answered, I'm out of here. Once again proving that most Rand haters don't have the intellect OR the BALLS to back up their accusations and assertions. It's truly pathetic :-(
sgapplebee 6 days ago
So you can attack her all you want, and no, I don't give a fuck about HER, or HER ideas. My ideas just HAPPEN to be her ideas. She doesn't have a license to the concept of rational objectivity or individual sovereignty. That's what I'm defending. Fuck this, I'm done.
Khayman8888 6 days ago
accept social security (which she had paid into her entire American life, so to say she was rejecting her own philosophy is hair-brained) and any SANE person would do the same if they couldn't, otherwise, afford treatment.
Once again, this has NOTHING to do with the ideas themselves. They exist WITHOUT her. Someone else would have thought of them because they speak to the nature of RATIONAL OBJECTIVITY, which is an idea as OLD as Aristotle.
Khayman8888 6 days ago
Ad Hominem is a LOGICAL FALLACY.
Note, it is the breadth, width, and height of Festdir's capacity to debate the logic of a philosophic and epistemological doctrine.
If you thought it was wrong that people wholesale slaughter cows for food, but you were starving to death and the only thing you could eat to survive was a cow, you would reject your believe that cows should not be the primary by eating?
Her life, something that she loved, was endangered and the only way to keep living was to
Khayman8888 6 days ago
@Khayman8888 If you have a problem with my statements, be a man & direct them to me.
"If you thought it was wrong that ppl slaughter cows for food"
Then you would be an idiot & a hypocrite......Nice analogy.
"Her life was endangered & the only way to keep living was to accept Social Security."
Huh. Almost seems like being self-centered is short sited & moronic.
"Aristotle"
Aristotle's ethical philosophy was nothing like Rand's. One should never compare these two.
festdir 6 days ago
@festdir I don't think I've had any problem directing my statements at you.
You quote me. "Then you would be an idiot and a hypocrite" Declarative. No explanation. I'm noticing a pattern/
Next quote. "Short sited (sic) and moronic". Declarative, no explanation.
Another declaration. You have nothing. Good day, sir.
Khayman8888 6 days ago
@Khayman8888 "No explanation"
You shouldn't need one. You asked a specific question, I gave you a specific answer.
"Next quote..."
Ayn Rand surviving on SocSec, shows that her ideas were short sighted & moronic.
I will try to dumb things down a bit more for you from here on out...but I do enjoy your transparent attempts to disengage from this conversation.
"You have nothing"
Yes. If only I would use retarded analogizes, & contradict my own statements in a single post. You got me.
festdir 6 days ago
Everyone, please look how festdir runs and hides. First off, he won't admit that when a person has something stole from them, they have every Right to get what they can back, and it's not hypocrisy.
Secondy, he makes a "factual" claim, but isn't willing to put his money where his mouth is. Which of course means, he knows it's not a factual claim, but a LIE.
sgapplebee 6 days ago
@sgapplebee "when a person has something stole [sic] from them"
Who had something stolen from them?
"it's not hypocrisy"
Ayn Rand collecting SocSec is hypocrisy...and she knew it as well, which is why she used a false name to collect it.
"he makes a "factual" claim, but isn't willing to put his money where his mouth is."
What are you babbling about? What claim are you referring to? What money?
Take a deep breath & try to make a legible post, instead of these white trash rants.
festdir 6 days ago
@festdir Do you understand how social security works? It's YOUR money. Jesus Christ, kid. She didn't really use a false name. Anne O'Connor. O'Connor was her last name upon marriage. Ayn Rand was her pseudonym. But even if she did, it was her money.
Khayman8888 6 days ago
@Khayman8888 "Do you understand how socSec works?"
Yes.
"It's YOUR money"
Apparently you don't. It isn't 'your money', when you pay in you are paying for today's Senior Citizens, when you collect SocSec, you are collecting money from those that are still working.
But thank you for letting me know your level intelligence. It is very telling.
festdir 6 days ago
@festdir LOL. How is that even a refutation? Are you pwning me with the fact that the specific dollar bills you pay in don't actually go to you? We have a winner! It's an investment that you're required to pay into in order to take out of. Automatic deductions. It's aN ROI. You cannot claim it if you didn't pay into it. There is no way for you to dumb down your logical fallacies and intuitive-declarative garbage. I "lost" to myself, right? Hilarious.
Thanks for making me look good, kid.
Khayman8888 6 days ago
@Khayman8888 "How is that even a refutation?"
How is pointing out that your explanation of SocSec was utterly wrong? You really got me.
"bankrupted SocSec"
It is so 'bankrupt' that we BORROW MONEY FROM IT.It is so 'broke' it has a $1.4 trillion nest egg.
I didn't realize $1,400,000,000,000 = $0. Powerful argument you have going here.
Why does it not surprise me that an Objectivist gets his 'facts' from talk radio?
Dear god, you are a retard.
Thank you for proving it in writing.
festdir 6 days ago
@festdir,
Socialist Security has a $1,400,000,000,000 nest egg? Really? Please tell me WHERE that "nest egg" is.
Don't you get tired of being wrong all the time?
sgapplebee 5 days ago
@sgapplebee "WHERE that 'nest egg' is."
In treasury securities.
There is a reason why SocSec is secure for the next 40 yrs (even if GDP doesn't raise AT ALL in 40 yrs).
There is a reason why the US borrows from SocSec.
There is a reason why you are pathetic white trash...and I love you for it.....do NOT change a thing!!
festdir 5 days ago
@festdir,
You're such a fucking idioit. There's NOTHING but IOU's dumbass. No wonder why you hide behind an alias, you're a fool.
sgapplebee 4 days ago
@sgapplebee "There's NOTHING but IOU's"
Or THE most trusted credit in the world.
Thanks for showing that you have never taken so much as Econ 101, white trash.
festdir 4 days ago
@festdir,
Once again, I prove that another Rand hater is nothing more than a big mouthed, anonymous lying hypocrite who doesn't have the balls to put his money where his big mouth is.
Thanks for proving my point.....AGAIN :-)
sgapplebee 3 days ago
@sgapplebee "I prove that another Rand hater...."
You would be the expert. After all, what is $1.4 trillion & FORTY YEARS of assets compared to the word of uneducated white trash?
You really got me there,Tiger.
"Thanks for proving my point...AGAIN"
Unless your point is 'sgapplebee is a goddamn retard', I'm afraid you are mistaken.
But do tell, how is SocSec 'bankrupt'? Do try to use evidence other than your mindless parakeet of radio hosts.
festdir 3 days ago
@festdir,
You just can't help yourself can you? Are you really THAT fucking stupid?
THERE IS NO Social Security "nest egg" dumb fuck! Not a fucking dime!
No wonder the government is so out of control and $15,000,000,000,000 in debt, ignoramuses like YOU can actually vote :-(
sgapplebee 2 days ago
@sgapplebee "THERE IS NO SocSec..."
Yes there is, your white trash rambling doesn't change that...but no matter:
SocSec is secure for 40 yrs with no changes.
But, do tell, as SocSec is 'bankrupt'--how did they pay out last month?
Reality is a bitch, aint it? It's really too bad the world isn't subordinate to AM radio hosts & the imagination of uneducated white trash.
festdir 2 days ago
@festdir,
Hey everyone, just look at how this dumbfuck lies & manipulates in a LAME attempt to "prove" his point. All of a sudden he went from a $1,400,000,000,000 "nest egg", to "it's secure for forty years". That's not the same thing dumbass! Socialist Security is now PAY AS YOU GO. Money is extracted straight from younger people and given to older people. It's only "secure" as long as those young people are willing to voluntarily fork it over.
Poor ignorant baby ;-(
sgapplebee 2 days ago
@sgapplebee "Hey everyone"
No one is here, but you and I...but that is 1 more that have your book.
"went from"
Actually, I mentioned both. You are unable to concede the FACT of $1.4, so I have moved on to another point disproving your statement that 'SocSec is bankrupt'-a statement you have yet to offer anything other than your uninformed opinion.
"as long as those ppl fork it over"
1)Everything would be bankrupt if it didn't have an income, retard.
2) We are. If your aren't, leave.
festdir 2 days ago
@festdir,m
Perhaps when you finish High School and move out of your mommy's basement you may learn something about economics and honesty. I doubt it, but perhaps.
sgapplebee 1 day ago
@sgapplebee "Perhaps when you finish HS & move out of mommy's basement"
Your detective abilities are equal to your economic knowledge....but both are still better than your authoring abilities.
But, please, continue with your 'if SocSec had no income, it will go broke & therefor it is bankrupt' thesis.
Your income-free accounting theory will change the world!!!
You should write a book on the subject!
festdir 1 day ago
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sgapplebee 1 day ago
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@festdir,
Still don't know what "nest egg" means? Guess you haven't even taken Home Ec yet?
sgapplebee 1 day ago
@festdir the ignorant: "You are unable to concede the FACT of $1.4...". WHAT "fact"? The FACT that there is no $1,400,000,000,000 "nest egg"? That fact? The fact that it's in nothing but IOU's?
I guess according to YOUR economics this country is in GREAT shape. After all, we have a $15,000,000,000,000 "next egg"! Oops, sorry, that's a $15,283,323,800,000 nest egg according to the official 'U.S. National Nest Egg Clock'.
sgapplebee 1 day ago
@sgapplebee "nothing but IOU's"
Or a security so secure that it is used as essentially currency for international finance....if only it was as 'rock solid' as a bet made on youtube comments, from white trash.
Regardless...you stated SocSec was bankrupt.
If you are right, then no one will receive their Soc Sec check next month.
You should really hold your breath on that.
Go to Somalia...no SocSec there. You will LOVE it...and so will America.
festdir 1 day ago
@festdir the lying ignoramus: "you stated SocSec was bankrupt".
Really please document WHERE I said "Social Security is bankrupt".
Your problem is that your just not able to make crucial distinctions, but that's to be expected from a child :-(
Oh, and speaking of my bets, what are you waiting for? If you're not willing to put your money where your big fucking mouth is, then you obviously know you're wrong.
Poor baby :-(
sgapplebee 1 day ago
@sgapplebee Ah, so SocSec is NOT bankrupt....then what is the problem?
"If you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is"
Sure. Whats the bet?
The most awesome part about Objectivists?
Their philosophy is their own sentence.
Good luck breaking 3 MILLIONTH on the Amazon bestseller list, loser.
festdir 1 day ago
@festdir,
Thanks, once again, for proving my point :-)
However, I'm not going to waste any more time on an anonymous fucking coward who doesn't have the balls to put his money where his ignorant mouth is.
Once you graduate from High School, please look me up and perhaps I can teach you something :-)
sgapplebee 1 day ago
@sgapplebee "Thanks, once again, for proving my point"
Apparently your point is 'sgapplebee is a goddamn retard'.
"put his money where his mouth is"
Again. What is the bet?
"not going to waste any more time"
Yes. You should really dedicate that time to authoring, after all, its working so well for you!!
"perhaps I can teach you something"
Like how to get to #3,386,860 on the Amazon list? Gosh, tempting.
Your miserable & uneducated existence pleases me. Tell us more.
festdir 20 hours ago
@festdir: "What is the bet?".
So you're not only a fucking idiot, you have no memory either? I've already offered you AT LEAST two bets:
You said Ayn Rand used a "false name" and you said the government of Somalia doesn't force anyone to do anything. Once again,$10,000 cash says you're wrong on both points.
Also, WHERE did I say "Social Security is bankrupt"?
You're not only a liar, you're an anonymous fucking coward. Poor baby, got no balls?
sgapplebee 15 hours ago
@sgapplebee I also said Ayn Rand used a name she wasn't popularly known as & she hid it from the public.
"govt of Somalia"
The govt of Somalia CAN'T force anyone to do anything, the Southern part has had no functioning govt for years.
"WHERE did I say "SocSec is bankrupt"?
Good. You concede it isn't. It looks like we agree.
"got no balls?"
I have more balls than your book has sales.
Loser.
festdir 14 hours ago
@festdir,
I guess that's that. If you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is, it simply proves you dont know what you're talking about AND you're a fucking pussy. Later coward :-(
sgapplebee 14 hours ago
@sgapplebee "I guess that's that"
If by 'that', you mean you are white trash. Then, yes. Yes it is.
"not willing to put your money where your mouth is"
As sure as I am that such a successful author has the money to cover...why not?
"don't know what you're talking about"
If I did I guess I would write a book. If only it could be at #3,388,837!
Then my life's work would be TOTALLY NOT laughably pathetic!
"Later coward"
I am right here. And I LOVE this conversation.
Now run away, loser.
festdir 6 hours ago
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@festdir,
You mean by "running away", offering you $10,000 cash?
Once again:
I guess that's that. If you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is, it simply proves you dont know what you're talking about AND you're a fucking pussy.
sgapplebee 5 hours ago
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sgapplebee 3 days ago
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@festdir,
Oh, one more thing for anyone reading this.
This idiot said there is $1,400,000,000,000 in a Social Security "nest egg".
Then he says it's in "the most trusted CREDIT in the world".
Next he says I have never even taken "Econ 101"?
He accuses ME of not knowing economics 101 when HE doesn't even know the difference between having a $1,400,000,000,000 "nest egg"and having $1,400,000,000,000 in CREDIT?
What a fucking idiot!
sgapplebee 3 days ago
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Khayman8888 6 days ago
@festdir Enjoy your bankrupted Social Security and your delusions that the American government is doing real good things for the poor.
What a fucking sheep. This is why you can't make a single logical argument and had to rely on ad hominem. You don't know fuck all. It's all way over your head, and you rely solely on your emotional whims rather than point by point understanding. Why don't you actually read some of the works you're lambasting and not just reviews of your leftist heroes?
Khayman8888 6 days ago
@festdir You're a caricature of an anti-academic pundit and I'm embarrassed to have even carried on this long with you.
Khayman8888 6 days ago
@festdir,
Are you REALLY that stupid?
1) If something is TAKEN from you BY FORCE are you a hypocrite for taking it back?
2) You said she used a false name to get SS. So why didn't the government go after her for fraud?
3) You made the claim the Somalia government doesn't force anyone to do anything. I said if you believe that then put your money where your big fat mouth is. You then proceeded to ran away. Well, how about it? $10,000 cash says I can prove it does.
sgapplebee 5 days ago
@sgapplebee 1) It's not 'taken by you by force'. You just have to have the balls to leave. Get yourself a plane ticket, pussy.
2) 'False name' You are correct. She used a name that she wasn't known as & she hid it from knowledge. Devastating refute. Really.
3) "Somalia govt doesn't force anything"
They can't. And they don't have that horrible SocSec. Go there.
But before you leave NEVER refer to yourself as an 'American' nor a 'man'. I can assure you...nobody else does.
festdir 5 days ago
@festdir,
1) Really? It's not taken by force? Since you're too much of a fucking pussy to bet on Somalia, then how much do you want to bet on this?
2) If she used a "false name" she would have been prosecuted for FRAUD, dumbass. Are you really that ignorant?
3) If the Somalia government doesn't force anything, why don't you take the bet? Simple, because, once again, you don't know what you're talking about.
sgapplebee 4 days ago
@sgapplebee 1) "Really?" Yep. Live by YOUR convictions & get out of MY country, pussy.
You will no longer have to pay those terrible US taxes.
2) She used a name she wasn't known as, in order to hide it from her easily manipulated pieces of white trash. Again, AM-radio-parakeet...she hid it for trash like you
3) Be a man, and make your statement. Because, once again, you are a lonely loser piece of white trash
Here's to hoping you beat #THREE MILLIONTH on the bestseller list!
festdir 4 days ago
There are two books that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
festdir 6 days ago
This is what I am feeling .. . .
codkiller100 1 week ago
Kids, stop reading the cliffnotes. Read "The Virtue of Selfishness", go watch videos of Ayn Rand herself. Her philosophy simply cannot be interpreted to justify oppression or exploitation. She is STRICTLY against gain through another's loss. She didn't just challenge the very lazy ethics of altruism, she rationalized the function of morality and supported an ethical code that involved fair treatment of everyone and contribution to a whole community.
Khayman8888 3 weeks ago
Hollywood ruined a good book
Dear Hollywood,
I think you missed the point of the book. Wow are you stupid! Seriously? Howard Roark, EXPLAINING his philosophy to the PUBLIC??! Not only would that have ruined the book, It shows you're not that bright.
anthonyd9024 3 weeks ago
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society is not entitled to the entrepreneur
society is rewarded with entrepreneurs by increasing personal freedom
TheBlitz1 4 weeks ago
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He just should have said, no real defense can ever be given unless you also have the right to face your accuser or to have evidence of an individual or individual victims. No victim = no crime. Until there is an individual victim or evidence leading to an individual victim you can never put up a defense. That's why if you kill a bunch of people you get judged on each individual count of murder. Other than that it's up to you vs. the conflicting interest of the State
yinzjagoffs 1 month ago
the bitter irony is that while this speech was declared JIM CROW was considered LAW.
gigijbijbj 1 month ago
Never liked Gary Cooper's acting. Lawrence Olivier could have pulled off the role.
danno321s 1 month ago
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Michael Prescott: Romancing the Stone-Cold Killer: Ayn Rand and William Hickman
michaelprescottDOTnet/hickmanDOThtm
kropotkinbeard1 1 month ago
Poor Coop; he's making a speech of something he has absolutely the most limited, if any, comprehension of.
One thing he DID understand was banging Patricia Neal; she had an abortion from him.
SatchmoSings 1 month ago
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SatchmoSings 1 month ago
He owned the Design and since he didn't pay for the property or construction of the Buildings,
The Building was not his property to destroy.
All he could do is to dis-associate himself from the project, and take his name off it.
How is this for rationalistic thought, "One can not destroy anothers property."
DUCATIPUNK 1 month ago
@DUCATIPUNK well stated.ayn rand was the creator of a morally and intellectually bankrupt philosophy.and a hypocrite to boot.she had no problem availing herself of medicare or cashing a social security cheque...oh and christ she was ugly.
dobbsiancant 1 month ago
@dobbsiancant,
Ah yes, another ignoramous who doesn't understand what a hypocrite is. Tell me genius, is someone a hypocrite if they take money back that was taken by force from them in the first place?
sgapplebee 1 month ago
@sgapplebee only an idiot equates taxation with theft.how did the dodo's books make it to stores?on roads paid for by taxes or by magic carpet?
dobbsiancant 1 month ago
@dobbsiancant,
So most of the Founding Fathers were idiots?
Hey dumb ass, there's a BIG DIFFERENCE between paying for roads, defense, police...etc (as the founders made clear in the founding documents), and STEALING from one American in order to give to another, or STEALING from Americans in order to give to other nations.
If you don't understand the differencem then YOU'RE the idiot. And you're WAY over your head.
Besides, I'm still waiting to hear the example of hypocrisy...welll?
sgapplebee 1 month ago 2
@DUCATIPUNK I agree. That's exactly what the "builders group" did to Roark's design....they destroyed it.
morton2311 1 month ago
All of Ayn Rands political philosophy can be summed up in a single question:
Are the needs (or supposed needs) of one human being a mortgage on the freedom of another?
That's the ONLY question that needs to be answered because government must either protect a citizens "Right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness", or the government must force one person to be another’s keeper (from each according to his ability to each according to his need"
It MUST be one or the other…Period!
sgapplebee 2 months ago 32
@sgapplebee So we all know what Rand thought. How about the greatest inventor and wealth creator in history, Nikola Tesla:
"This new world must be a world in which there shall be no exploitation of the weak by the strong, of the good by the evil; where there will be no humiliation of the poor by the violence of the rich; where the products of intellect, science and art will serve society for the betterment and beautification of life, and not the individuals for achieving wealth."
earthshine2Y 1 month ago
@earthshine2Y,
Ayn Rand would agree COMPLETELY with this entire quote except for the very last line. If the ideas of a human being brings about the "betterment and beautification of life", they should be rewarded for it and not punished for it.
No matter how much money a Tesla, Edison, Gates, Jobs...etc, makes during their lifetime, it will be NOWHERE NEAR the betterment and wealth they created.
sgapplebee 1 month ago
@sgapplebee On the subject of Tesla, well it would seem that he wouldn't have thought much of Roark or Rand.
earthshine2Y 1 month ago
@sgapplebee what a disgusting philosophy you believe in. you desire to live in a world where the lucky, the successful, and the privileged need not be concerned with the well being of humanity. a world entirely fueled by greed. ayn rand clearly had a pathological disposition. shes fond of capitalism because it rewards psychopathy. this is a country of 300mil, the bottom 30% own as much money as 6 walmart execs. i can safely say that "rational self interest" is not improving lives.
SamySara2 3 weeks ago
@SamySara2,
Really? That's the world I want to live in? And that's the world she wanted to live in? Please document.
sgapplebee 3 weeks ago
@sgapplebee Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone.
Khayman8888 3 weeks ago
@Khayman8888,
I disagree. Those who deny Reason can EASILY be conquered by it. That is, IF the government quit FORCING those of use who USE Reason to pay for those animals and human parasites who DO NOT.
I would love to "leave them alone" if they would only leave ME alone. But that's not going to happen because they NEED producers in order to PLUNDER from them.
However, I do agree with most of what you have posted on this site :-)
sgapplebee 3 weeks ago 2
@sgapplebee Go to Somalia. No govt to FORCE things on you there.
You will live up to your convictions, the USA will be stronger once you leave & shortly after your arrival the gene pool will be improved.
Everybody wins!
festdir 6 days ago
@festdir,
Bravo! Great argument! So you're saying Somalia is a Capitalist nation and the government there forces no one to do anything?
sgapplebee 6 days ago
@sgapplebee The Somalian government doesn't force anyone to do anything, moron.
It is too weak.
Have the balls to live by your convictions..even if you don't have the brains to evaluate them.
festdir 6 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@festdir: "The Somalian government doesn't force anyone to do anything"
Really, how much money would you like to put on that?
sgapplebee 6 days ago
@festdir,
And talk about NOT having balls? You're nothing but an ANONYMOUS COWARD TROLL!
sgapplebee 6 days ago
The Truth about Ayn Rand slate.com/articles/arts/books/2009/11/how_ayn_rand_became_an_american_icon.html
kropotkinbeard1 2 months ago
Fact: There are ONLY two ways for human beings to deal with one another--through Force or Persuasion. It will ALWAYS come down to one or the other. So, on any given point, if you ever resort to the use of force (or hire another to do it for you) then you have no right to complain when another uses force against you.
If you hire the government to force others to give you what YOU want, you have no right to complain when others hire the government to force you to give them what THEY want.
sgapplebee 2 months ago
If you hire the government to force others to give to the causes YOU believe necessary, you have no right to complain when others hire the government to force you to give to the causes THEY believe necessary.
If you hire the government to force others to live by the values YOU believe are moral, you have no right to complain when others hire the government to force you to live by the values THEY believe are moral.
If you act like an animal, expect to be treated like one.
sgapplebee 2 months ago 27
@sgapplebee Right, because animals frequently form governments.
mtheory85 4 weeks ago
@mtheory85,
Obviously, animals don't form governments. However, human beings who wish to ACT LIKE ANIMALS (meaning they wish to Force instead of Persuade), vote for immoral politicians in order to get them to STEAL for them or for a cause they support.
So in fact, they're actually much worse than animals because they can know right from wrong, but choose not to.
sgapplebee 4 weeks ago 2
All of Ayn Rands political philosophy can be summed up in a single question:
Are the needs (or supposed needs) of one human being a mortgage on the freedom of another?
That's the ONLY question that needs to be answered because government must either protect a citizens "Right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness", or the government must force one person to be another’s keeper (from each according to his ability to each according to his need". It MUST be one or the other…Period!
sgapplebee 2 months ago
No individual built any structure larger than a simple log home. If you even today build a home you need help to set trusses, or the lumber you buy is made by others at factory's run by workers, and transported over roads built by still others to get to your door.No one built a sky scraper and the rant that rand has Roark yammering about is not only simple minded but stupid and holds no water.Its a fantasy for people who think more of them self then is a reality.Rand only emboldens narcissists.
edteach2u 2 months ago
@edteach2u The speech is longer in the book and covers some of the things you talk about. Read it before you dismiss Ayn Rand.
sonrouge 2 months ago
@sonrouge I have, and I have also read Atlas Shrugged. I see no value to her premise that these so called engines of society are the driving force that should be allowed to run unregulated. To an extent this is reasonable but not to the extent that Rands paranoid mind gives them. She gives us a false choice, either full unregulated laissez fair capitalism or corrupt welfare states with government controlling everything. Rand is black and white and the world is many shads of gray. Rand was wrong
edteach2u 2 months ago
Lets put this into other terms. Rand was fundamentally wrong on her assumptions and this was further exacerbated by her unwillingness to ever look critically at her own hypothesis. Let's say a farmer is Roark and the Ox he used to plow his farm was the workers he used to build his building. By Rands belief the farmer can have a great idea on how to use his land but if he neglects his Ox and treats is as rand advocates how long before the ox dies of neglect and then the farmer?
edteach2u 2 months ago
Rand was nothing but a walking contradiction, she goes on about the rights of individuals then says that the Europeans taking the land from the Natives in America was right because they did not use the land the way it should have been used, no individual ownership. She took Social Security under her husbands name of O'Connor and Medicare, and said that smoking was mans conquering of fire, then got lung cancer. LOL what a dumb cunt.
edteach2u 2 months ago
@edteach2u,
Do you know WHAT a contradiction is? If a person is FORCED to pay for something they DO NOT want, is it a contradiction for them to take back what they can get?
sgapplebee 2 months ago
@sgapplebee Are you in your simple minded way saying "forced" as in taxes? If so no one would pay for anything in this county, roads would be owned by the wealthy and if you can not pay for their use you don't use then, the same with fire Dept's. If you don't pay your home burns. lands would be privately owned, that means fuck tard that all the parks we all use as public lands would be owned by some corporation, if not exploited and ruined for their resources would be a playground for the rich
edteach2u 2 months ago
@edteach2u,
So you're so fucking stupid that you believe Americans would just sit back and watch this country COLLAPSE and do NOTHING about it? And you say I"M "simple minded"?
sgapplebee 2 months ago
@sgapplebee They are they are going to throw out these fucking Republicans who are nothing but a bunch of flip flopper's and sexual harassers. LMFAO
edteach2u 2 months ago
@edteach2u,
Even this comment shows how fucking ignorant you are. Rand WAS NOT a Republican dumbas.
sgapplebee 2 months ago
@sgapplebee Rand worked for the Willkie campaign, a dark horse Republican. She may not have called herself a Republican but like many of their ideas and worked for the party. You don't seem to know much about Rand for all this reading you do. What is it you read, Archie Comics?
edteach2u 2 months ago
@edteach2u,
Yes or No: Ws Rand a Republican?
sgapplebee 2 months ago
@sgapplebee First of While E. Super Genius, I never said Rand "was a Republican" I said that we the living will throw out the Republicans in 12. Second I don't go for this answer yes or no shit you seem to think will back someone in a corner, and you obviously don't know how to even use the loaded question. Since I never said Rand was a Republican but she did work for the election of some Republicans I don't have to answer as I never made the statement While E.
edteach2u 2 months ago
@sgapplebee You did not answer my question, If the building was built to the specifications as was agreed to, then after the fact changed adding the changes, when is it not Rorks building to blow up, when is the property of the person footing the bill? If I buy a painting and then add to it by painting an extra figure on it, its not the artists right to break into my home and burn it. Your a fucking retard. This idea of individual is nonexistent. No one got her on their own.
edteach2u 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@edteach2u,
Hey dumb fuck. You can run away all you want, but you're showing what a stupid fucking COWARD you are by not wanting to answer the question that MUST BE ANSWERED before YOU can even ask YOUR questions.
Yes or No: Did Roark give Keating the Blue Prints under the condition that it would be build EXACTLY how it was designed?
sgapplebee 2 months ago
We all got where we are by building on others ideas and inventions, no one lives in a vacuum and this idea of a creator class is one step away from the ideas held by the Nazi's. That there is some superman class that everyone else sucks off of. In reality its the capitalist on the top of the heap who makes money from the work of those who actually do the work that are the leaches. They do nothing and get all the reward. You are most likely not one of them but you still suck their dick.
edteach2u 2 months ago
The Building was private property, Lets take this to the reductio ad absurdum, Let's way the building was built a promised, and once finished it was immediately remodeled to the same end as in the movie. It was private property and he destroyed another mans private property, you loose on every argument and its a stupid movie.
edteach2u 2 months ago
Rand has used the individual excuse to destroy personal property because it was a personal idea of another. What if the person who developed the sub structure used in this type of building did not like the way the other buildings were built using his ideas and destroyed them? This kind of self centered narcissistic ideas are not only dangerous they boarder on mentally ill. I am sure Hitler if you delve in to his personality felt much the same way and would have thrown rand in the ovens.
edteach2u 2 months ago
This is one of the dumbest movies I have ever seen. Rand was one of the most narcissist people I have ever read. She contributed nothing and thought the world of herself. Sure, a architect is doing to blow up a building because a few balcony's were put on it. How simplistic can a movie get? And the speech was supposed to sway a jury that his act of vandalism was justified? Its stupid and those who think its good writing are as deluded as the idiot Rand.
edteach2u 2 months ago
@edteach2u Sure if you see it in an objective way... from my point of view the building is the individual , your own ideas and your own creation she used the building so people could understand this more easily ... You can choose to destroy it if you created it.
If beethoven would have decided to destroy the original and only copy of moonlight sonata
because someone else wanted to add notes to it,
his creation! disfigured at the whim of others!
why should anyone make a claim for it?
Necrophogist 2 months ago
@Necrophogist He gave up his right to the building when he freely gave it to the other architect. Not only that but the analogy she used is so shallow and wrong to get the point across it makes for a shallow sophomoric movie that is lone and boring. When you hire an architect to give you plans you have purchased those plans, its now yours and when you build the project and make changes its your property, this idiot Rand creates a contradiction, she has someone destroy personal property
edteach2u 2 months ago
@edteach2u,
Have you watched the movie or actually read the book?
Yes or No: Did Roark give Keating the Blue Prints under the condition that it would be build EXACTLY how it was designed?
sgapplebee 2 months ago
@sgapplebee Yes or no, have you stopped beating your wife? Don't give me that loaded question shit.
edteach2u 2 months ago
@edteach2u,
Wow! THAT'S a "loaded question"?
OBVIOUSLY you haven't watched the movie OR read the book.
Why don't you find the answer before you make even more of a fool of yourself.
sgapplebee 2 months ago
@sgapplebee Rand is easily dismissed ass wipe, Roark built nothing, it was the workers who built every building put up. Your obvious ideology of favor the rich as an elite class or the individual is a myth. The silly court room rant would not have persuaded an Eskimo to put on a coat in January. You seem to be a narcissist as Rand was and when I went to school only the narcissists seemed to like this POS book. You must jack off to her Superman Roark and her twisting of Nietzsche. TARD
edteach2u 2 months ago
@edteach2u,
What's wrong, can't answer a SIMPLE QUESTION? Gee, I guess in order to answer the question, you must have to AT THE VERY LEAST watched the movie or read the book. Talk about a narcissist! You're such an EGOMANIAC you attempt to comment on something you know NOTHING of? What a dumb fuck!
sgapplebee 2 months ago
@sgapplebee The idea of blowing up a building because someone added some balcony's is a very stupid plot line. To enforce such a stupid idea it would have to have been held in a contract that was signed not some verbal between two people once removed that can not be enforced. No, he did not have the right to request that no changes be made. This is as stupid as me putting up a slogan on a wall and not telling anyone I did it but wanted no one to change or use it. Its just stupid like you fucker
edteach2u 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@edteach2u,
Yes or No: Did Roark give Keating the Blue Prints under the condition that it would be build EXACTLY how it was designed?
sgapplebee 2 months ago
@sgapplebee I have read, and watched the movie of both the fountainhead and atlas shrugged. I am also reading the excellent book by Jennifer Burns Goddass of the market Ayn Rand and the American Right a book that exposes her for the shallow narcissist she was. But you are like all right wing idiots you will never look or read anything that may challenge your view. The world is black and white and thats the way it is in your small little mind.
edteach2u 2 months ago
@edteach2u,
There you go again, commenting on something you know NOTHING of. MOST of what I watch or read goes against my philosophy. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is? $10,000 cash says I've read, or listened to, AT LEAST twice what you've read over the last 2 decades.
sgapplebee 2 months ago
@sgapplebee I love these I am smarter than you bets. Who would judge? You? LOL Idiots read philosophy but they just don't understand it. How do I know you are not some 12 YO living in your moms basement trolling? You most likely are. You make assumptions that are not only stupid but make no sense. You must be a person who lives with mama and because of the timing of your posts I would say just got out of school. LOL Have you even seen a vagina yet other than NG?
edteach2u 2 months ago
@edteach2u,
Then take the bet dumb fuck. You're no different than any other big mouth anonymous COWARD who posts on here. IDENTIFY YOURSELF and bring it on. What are you so afraid of?
sgapplebee 2 months ago
@sgapplebee You first, whats your real name and address?
edteach2u 2 months ago
@sgapplebee Its a stupid bet that can not be enforced any more than telling someone that they cant change a building design. I see you at least you learned something as stupid as the theme of the book. LOL I can just see you know, saying I have read 10 books, 50 books then crying out Infinity. LMFAO your a retard not an individualist. You cant even argue your own position. A position you don't understand. LOL Don't you have home work to do?
edteach2u 2 months ago
@edteach2u,
It would be easy to "enforce", all you would have to do is not be a fucking anonymous coward, identify yourself, and we could begin; but since your mouth is bigger than both your heart or your brain, that's not going to happen is it?
All my information is right there on my youtube and facebook pages. Your turn.
sgapplebee 2 months ago
@sgapplebee OK My name is Daryl Kunde and I live at 179 Matelski Road Gaylord Michigan, come on over and I will kick your fucking bitch ass punk. LOL Now whats your name coward?
edteach2u 2 months ago
@edteach2u,
Are you kidding me? What's my name? You really are a fucking idiot arent you? Don't know how read? Don't know how to click on someones NAME or what Facebook is either? Guess what dumbass, I'm in Michigan too.
Since you were too much of a chicken shit to take my first bet, then here's another. 10k cash says I can knock your stupid ass out or submit you before you could knock me out or submit me. Whatcha say Kunte? If that's your real name.
sgapplebee 2 months ago
@sgapplebee I can tell by the way you write that you do not have an education past 8th grade. I will take that bet and since I carry a CCW I would most likely just shoot your bitch ass and save the welfare office some cash. LMAO. Your IQ would make for a very cold room temperature. LOL. Your a fool and Since it demeans me to talk to fools I am going to put you on ignore as you just seem to like to argue and doing that with you is fighting with an unarmed individual. You have my address idiot.
edteach2u 2 months ago
@edteach2u,
Thanks for proving my point. Not only are you too much of a fucking coward to take my first bet, you're too much of a fucking coward to take the second. I don't blame you though, being the coward and intellectual midget you are.
As to Welfare, MOST people collecting welfare are just like YOU. They HATE Ayn Rand as much you do. So they're your comrade brother parasites in action and philosophy. Don't you think its time for you to grow up and quit sucking off mommy government?
sgapplebee 2 months ago
@sgapplebee You had no point. You obviously don't even know any thing of the history of Rand. Rand herself was on Social Security and Medicaid the last days of her pathetic life. She had lung cancer from smoking that she called mans triumph over fire. LOL Smoke up fuck tard. You are one of those tea bagger haters that hate gays, non Christians, and do you even know Rand hated Christians? Rand hated verything that was not exactly like her. You are a mental midget who talks out his asshole. seeya
edteach2u 2 months ago
@edteach2u,
Hey dumb ass, is it a contradiction to get money back from the government if it was taken from you in the first place WITHOUT your consent? Do you understand WHAT a contradiction is?
As to me, you OBVIOUSLY know NOTHING about me. I don't hate gays, I'm even FOR gay marriage numnuts. I'm ALSO a non christian myself, so how can I hate non christians? You really have issues dude. Perhaps you should quit whining for government to take care of you and grow up.
sgapplebee 2 months ago
@sgapplebee You really have anger issues don't you? You may get some relief if you go beat your mother. LOL Give her a good ol kick in the cunt, that should make you feel better, and as Rand said don't feel any guilt because its all about you. LOL But one thing is for sure, by the way you talk you are not now and will never be the "superman" or "creator" that rand talked about, you are not even the secondary person she talked about, your the level she would have thrown in the trash. LMAO.
edteach2u 2 months ago
@edteach2u,
Bravo! Great arguments as usual. If you ever want to put your money were your big fucking ignorant mouth is, I'll be waiting. I know it's hard to save money when you're a parasite feeding at the public trough, but perhaps your mommy will help you.
sgapplebee 2 months ago
@edteach2u The individual is the building when you copy or let others decide for you, you put a parasite on your creative imagination and you self destruct your individualism.
Necrophogist 2 months ago
@Necrophogist This is non sense. every one has built on the people that came before him. Lets take this stupid analogy of the self the building. No one has just created a sky scraper out of nothing, it comes from the past successes and failures of those who built before. From the time someone used fire to cook meat to someone who cooked with spices and others who used clay to make a pot and then someone used that pot to cook in, every one builds on the ideas of those who came before.
edteach2u 2 months ago
BRAVO!!!
sgapplebee 2 months ago
So glad this was made when it was, if they made it today, half of the time allocated to this speech would have been replaced with a sex scene, a few explosions and possibly a car chase.
15wardj 3 months ago
I'm taking my ball and I'm going home!
ChewieBiscuit 3 months ago
funny how rand anticipated the 'intellectual property' movement
jcfbell3001 3 months ago
You can't argue with this. PERIOD.
SemperBeer 3 months ago
@AYNfeelingRANDy I much prefer the movie Titanic. It's more real, it looks like when things go wrong, whether to save someone, you start with the first class, locking the third in the basement, of course.
ogry64 3 months ago
There are many comments addressing that Mrs. Rand's message is absolutely relevant today. There are many more facited idea's playing the part of today.
The idea of Roark was that he held in his heart what he decided to on an idea. To remain the same. Architecture is a metaphor. Constructing a way of life. His buildings were an extension of his self.
Do not take Mrs. Rand's writings as literal. The ideas are in there, waiting for a interpretation.
CTIndiana 3 months ago
there comes a time when this shit just isn't relevant - and that is when the rulers of all start working for the few. they amass all the wealth and exclusively compete with each other, and even despite outright failure they are supported. and who has to pay for it? at this point I would rather see the global economic system crumble than watch this slow motion train wreck.
Peachins 3 months ago
well actually you can help the poor by destroying the rich. and lifting the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down. and you can further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred... and so on.
it's just that the very wealthy wouldn't like it very much, just as king louise and his queen marie antoinette weren't big fans of the whole "revolution" thing.
Peachins 3 months ago
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@Peachins
"and you can further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred... and so on."
Are you fucking stupid? You want to live in a world where there is no production and no innovation.
itachi705 3 months ago
What a fucking prick.
CatastrophicDisease 3 months ago
Self-serving ideological pantomiming. Capitalism exploits, the end. Ayn Rand is a wonderful writer; her work is inspirational, and I know her heart is in the right place, but I can never as a coloured woman of the working class support those who defend the upper echelons that build and feed a factory of money-grubbing, war, and dependence and shame, that exports labour and devalues the human right to settle and integrate and participate in a society that is totally backwards and needs CHANGE.
Tsuppi 3 months ago
This clip never fails to wow me. Libs are always talking about how conservatives don't care about people. They don't get that that's because we care about "persons" instead. The individual. And we believe in the individual to both take care of and better themselves.
thephilosofer87 3 months ago 8
@thephilosofer87 ~My problem with Conservatives isn't that they are so focused on the "person or individual" than they are on the collectiveness of a society, but that try to use Jesus and Christian teachings, when in fact one has nothing to do with the other. This makes conservatives come across as liars and manipulators.
nikkinew123 3 months ago
@nikkinew123 In your opinion they're unrelated - and Ayn Rand agrees with you - but would be absurd for a religious person, who honestly believes in christianity to not consider their politics a reflection of those views. You said they are liars and manipulators. What are they lying about? Their religious conviction or their relation of it to politics. If you agree they truly have religious convictions than you should believe their politics are a reflection of those views not a manipulation.
thephilosofer87 3 months ago
@thephilosofer87- I don't follow their so called religious convictions. They use "I'm a Christian & this is a Christian Nation" as a political platform, yet they want to create a society that doesn't reflect any real Christian values. So no, I don't believe that anyone who using their Christianity as platform wouldn't consider their politics a reflection of those views. Besides, why wouldn't one want to create a society that Jesus himself would approve of? And don't you answer to God first?
nikkinew123 2 months ago
Respond to this video...ALSO~Take abortions. Their religious teaches that it's a sin to terminate a pregnancy & even if it goes against one's constitutional rights, they can't accept this Nation allowing such a thing. Now we are talking about life & death, but what about same sex marriage? Again, a reflection of religious beliefs! But feed the poor, take care of the elderly? You do that on your own and as a christian society, we don't enforce the most important teachings of Jesus.
nikkinew123 2 months ago
@nikkinew123 Ok, I'm not sure I entirely follow your responses, but I will try to answer what I can. My question was do you believe Christians actually believe in christianity? If you answer no, then your simply stepping beyond your capabilities because no one can know what other people truly believe. If you say yes, then you should believe that they think their politics reflects their religion. You may think they are mistaken, but that is irrelevent. The point is they are not "liars".
thephilosofer87 2 months ago
@thephilosofer87 ~1) Maybe I haven't been clear. lol But I appreciate, even though we don't agree, we're speaking respectfully to each other :) ~You stated that it isn't that Consv. don't care about ppl, but that they put "individualism/ the persons" first! From your statement I responded by saying, that fact is why ppl find Christians to be hypocrites, liar & manipulators. You can't be a true Christian with the "me" mentality Rand teaches, she is an Atheist. I get her totally.
nikkinew123 2 months ago
Respond to this video... 2) you asked what they are lying about. And I have to ask if I can answer that by starting a focusing or a clarification on Rand's teaching of economic or personal philosophies in comparison to Christianity, cuz I think this is where we lost each other. So my ques. is, What part her teachings are reflective of the teachings of Jesus? I don't think Jesus would approve of a society based on Atheist values. If we explore than, then we see how they're lying.
nikkinew123 2 months ago
@nikkinew123 So you believe Christian Conservatives are lying because they agree with Rand, an athiest conservative? Why do assume that Christian's are being inconsistant with their values and not Rand? If you say it is because Rand didn't believe in giving to charity than you have found the major area of disagreement between Conservatives and Rand. Like I said, Reps give more to charity than Dems. Further, I personally DO think individualism/natural rights philosophy is baseless for athiests.
thephilosofer87 2 months ago
@thephilosofer87~1. I always hear this Consv. give more than "do you mean liberals?" Cuz that is simply not a fact. It could be your personal assumption, but not a fact. Liberals are know for their need to constantly give back. Our worlds revolve around this need. I can't speck for dems. who also consider themselves libs. But what makes us liberal is this need to help others & we are ridiculed for it. Where do you get this fact from? Fox News or some article you've read? Is there data on this
nikkinew123 2 months ago
@nikkinew123 That is not my personal assumption; check your "facts": Google "Bleeding Heart Tightwads" by LIBERAL New York Times columnist Nicolas Kristof. Also check out "RealClearPolitics - Articles - Conservatives More Liberal Givers".
Further, conservatives do not ridicule liberals for being personally charitable. As you will see, we love charity. We ridicule liberals for trying to use the government to give charity.
thephilosofer87 2 months ago
@thephilosofer87,
Did you hear about the study on which places have the CHEAPEST tippers? San Fransisco and Washington DC.!
I'm not a conservative, but liberals certainly are the biggest hypocrites. Liberals are THE BEST at giving away OTHER PEOPLES MONEY, that's for sure.
sgapplebee 2 months ago
@thephilosofer87 1. You want to base facts on a book written by a man who is apart of a conserv. think tank? There are many critics of his book. Esp. by other Social Science Researchers who claim he lacked traditional methods of research to gain a bias outcome. That he compared Religious Libs v Consrv. & Charity, they were the same. But when he compared religion to secular he lacked support. He than concluded by comparing rural to urban areas, not accounting for discretionary income...
nikkinew123 2 months ago
Respond to this video... Much of his data was "self-reported surveys". He counted every penny of church charity, which can be seen as self interest (church's up-keeps etc.). But didn't account for monies given to like street beggar etc. He states that libs spend more time v consv. give more money. He chose not to use Representative National Samples, which would have changed the conclusion of his analysis. The point is, let's not base facts on a book seeking a bias outcome.
nikkinew123 2 months ago
@nikkinew123 Ummm...did you read all of the Kristof Article? He quotes the author as saying he was sure Libs would be more generous. When the info came back, he was sure it was wrong. Looking for a bias outcome? You accused me of making an assumption about Cons. being more generous then libs, but it's you and most people that have made the wrong assumption.
Oh, and what's your beef with "self-reported surveys"? Is it Cons are known liars or Libs are known for their humility? Just wondering.
thephilosofer87 2 months ago
@thephilosofer87 Sef-reporting~If you ask someone, how much of your income do you give to charity? If they're religious, maybe they'll say "10 percent" cause they know it's the right answer. Data based on that, might not be exactly accurate. that's all. Brooks' analysis is bias because he is bias, I am and so are you.lol A study done by a non bias group, and if they use traditional methods (not seeking a bias conclusion) it would be more creditable & worth examining. I'd read it regardless!
nikkinew123 2 months ago
@nikkinew123 "If they're religious, maybe they'll say "10 percent" cause they know it's the right answer."
First it was conservatives are liars about Jesus. Then you didn't believe they're more generous, cus 'everyone knows giving is part of liberal beliefs' and when I showed you the "facts" the conservatives who took the survey were dishonest, the man that wrote the book is untrustworthy - it seems anyone who contradicts your beliefs is a liar. So, I agree with you: your bias.
thephilosofer87 2 months ago
@thephilosofer87 I didn't say that liberals were more generous (although I believe we are by nature) but it was YOU, who tried to prove that conservatives were, based on a book. I didn't call him a lier, just biased & that he did the study & wrote the book with initial intension to prove this view point, which makes it's questionable. I told you that if the study is done by a bipartisan group of social sci,/oragnization it would be more believable. That is only fair.
nikkinew123 2 months ago
@nikkinew123 I did say Conservatives are more generous and I have the stats to prove it. You called him biased, and you said that he set out looking to prove that conservatives were more generous. However, he was quoted in the article as saying that he expected liberals to be more generous. He even originally disbelieved the stats coming in contrary. If you don't believe he is telling the truth about this, then you think he is a liar.
thephilosofer87 2 months ago
@thephilosofer87 So even if Brooks is right, what does that have to do with the gov. collecting taxes to take care of the poor.? This is really where liberals find Conservative hypocrites. Wanting the gov. to dictate who you can marry who or a woman's right to choose based on religion, but we can't feed the poor through gov. based on religion. I personally think we should take care of the poor based on morality, not religion. It's just religious analogy show the hypocrisy in the logic.
nikkinew123 2 months ago
@nikkinew123 1. I already said I agree with you about gay marriage, I don't know why you keep bringing it up. It's in rather poor taste, I think. 2. Government has a specific duty: protect us from crime and war. Abortion is murder - that makes it a crime. 3. You are right, we have a moral obligation to take care of the poor. We, as in individuals. Conservatives are not hypocrits, whether you choose to believe the stats or not: We believe in taking care of the poor and do just that.
thephilosofer87 2 months ago
@nikkinew123 Abortion: which part of the constitution guarantees an abortion? I want an exact quote. Gay marriage: yes, a relfection of their beliefs. What's your point? Before you said christian's politics DIDN'T match their beliefs. Now your angry that it does. Jesus and the poor: Jesus never spoke one word to a government. Individuals have the responsibility of feeding the poor. And the christian belief here is clearly seen too: republicans give more to charity than democrats.
thephilosofer87 2 months ago
@thephilosofer87 About abortion~ my only point there was the comparison of including anti-abortion values to creating a society that is reflective of their Christian values vs feeding the poor. But we should explore the hypocrisy in that. Consv. don't want the Gov. taking away your personal freedoms, YET they want a gov. to mandate a law reflective of (some of their) religious beliefs. Why shouldn't gays be allowed to marry? Bible vs Constitution pick one!
nikkinew123 2 months ago
@nikkinew123 Actually, I agree with you. Marriage is sacred as a religious institution and as a Christian I believe it was intended for a man and a woman. But government should not be concerning itself with moral issues. That is not it's purpose.
thephilosofer87 2 months ago