Richard Viguerie on the Future of Conservatism

[Silvsilvchan]

I agree with Fusionism to an extent. But part of it is identifying what is the most important issues that need to be fuzed on. I am a conservative leaning Libertarian. I can identify with paleo-conservatives, objectivists, and green Ralph Nader types. I can not, and will not identify with the neo-conservative, George Bush wing of the republican party. Before you can fuze on these important issues, say in the Republican party, you need to clean house. Those people? Need to be shown the door.

[caltrop69]

Whoa! How can you reconcile Ralph Nader's "you must install a seatbelt" with Objectivism or Libertarianism?

I will admit that Ralph Nader is consistent, but his "government protection of the ill-informed against the corrupt corporation" stance is a repugnant slippery slope.

Corporations are ONLY corrupt, because we have a government in collusion. If lobbyists couldn't find any ears on capital hill, they'd be unnecessary and meaningless.

[Silvsilvchan]

I dunno. How can you consider Ron Paul's views on abortion or border security similar to them?

What are we talking about? Fusionism. That's where, you know, people who disagree here and there come together for more important causes. What do all those groups have in common? Lots on foreign policy, opposition to government spying on citizens, opposition to collusions.

Some corporations would still be corrupt. Just to a far more insignificant degree. =P Don't place words in my mouth please.

[Silvsilvchan]

Apologies, you were just explaining Ralph Nader's belief. >> I made an assumption. And you know... assume makes an ass of you and me.

[glv80]

I often said, liberals should have loved the Bush Presidency. All they did was pay attention to the R next to his name. If one looks at Obama and Bush, there is hardly any difference when it comes to governance. Both are big government, excessive regulation, and fiscally insane.

[chevydriver1123]

I love liberty but I dont want the state jackboot trying to force morals on me (Religious Right, Paleoconservatives, current liberal congress) I dont want our soldiers being treated like toys and deployed in counties just because the said country doesnt like us (Neoconservatives, Liberal Hawks) and of course I dont want my taxes going to projects the private sector can do better.

[fomastephanovitch]

I believe that the superficiality of politics today is partly due to the discipline of "political science", distinct from political philosophy.

Thought is no longer sound as the foundations are not explored anymore.

[XCritonX]

Its harder to start a conservative organization than a liberal organization. If you start a liberal organization you can have the most vile of goals but government money will flow like rivers into your program. Just take a look at ACORNs support of child sex slavery, money laundering, etc. If it was a conservative organization it and all of its affiliates would be facing federal raids, and the leaders would be in jail. The double standard is appalling.

[corenothing]

yes! believe whatever you like, let's just all do something to restrict government from intervening everywhere that it's not necessary!

[samuils]

Thank you, and I quote "I dont think there has been any conservative who hasnt been outspoken about our leadership, for the past 14 15 years" Yes thats right, conservatives really didnt like Bush, and spoke out against him.

[haypenny]

We did speak out against Bush, but for different reasons. We didn't like his spending, and other liberal-esque actions. Liberals just had personal hatred for the man, even though he was fiscally liberal. Nothing he could have done would have garnered praise or even moderate approval from the liberal press and the insane neo-marxist Congress. People also forget that we had essentially the same Congress then as now - and they are the most corrupt in history with the lowest approval ratings.

[samuils]

haypenny I know that, the reason for my post, I was just trying to make a poing, because some Libertarians tend to think that conservatives are exactly for what Bush did.

[haypenny]

I hear ya honey - I was just conversatin' and expanding on your point. The problem is that Bush didn't do that which liberals scream about most [ WMD Intelligence ]; Pelosi and friends are the biggest liars in that realm. Bush's biggest fault was robbing the treasury; but it doesn't even come close to the robbery perpetrated by this administration, ya know?

[samuils]

haypenny, Yap, and thankfully the sleeping Giant is waking up.

[DescentToCocytus]

It seems more likely that the real reason the Republicans are cozying up to libertarians is that they realize Republicanism is in its death throes, and Libertarianism is about to explode in a big way. They want to ride the coattails of the new libertarian movement in order to restore power and penetration of Republican ideology over the long run. Libertarians; we need to separate ourselves from the Republicans ASAP. Our association with them is just dragging us down.

[haypenny]

Republicanism is not in it's death throes, its on the ascendancy; check all the major polls. Most Americans self-identify as Conservative on all major issues & overall philosophy. For the first time in history, there are more anti-abortion citizens than pro-abortion citizens for one example.We cozy up to libertarians because they agree w/ conservatives on many issues, and on those they don't agree on,Libertarians are reasonable debaters, as where liberals are venom spitting hate filled gas bags.

[DescentToCocytus]

The newest polls I could find are from April and May of this year, and they show that the number of Americans who self-identify as Republican has plummeted to 21-22 percent--a roughly 25 year low. Care to point the way to those polls you are referring to?

[AngrySkeptic]

The most recent polls you could find were from April?

Either you are the worst internet user I've ever seen or you are an intellectually dishonest cretin.

[DescentToCocytus]

I was looking for something more scientifically rigorous than a Gallup poll or equivalent. If we include those sorts of polls in the discussion, then we see that the number of people who identify as Republican has more or less stagnated, if not slightly decreased, since the time of the more scientific poll I found from May.

You're a self-proclaimed "skeptic", shouldn't you know that Gallup is the American Idol of demographic research?

[haypenny]

Sorry - I need to clarify. They self-identify themselves as Conservative, on all major issues. People have been leaving both parties in droves and becoming Independents because they're tired of our weak, and/or corrupt politicians who don't listen to the people. I think Rasmussen, among others held this poll a couple months ago.

[Silvsilvchan]

Well, I wouldn't say that. I've met irrational libertarians who spent most of their time practitioning fallacious debate methods, strawmans and ad hominen and such. Like wise I have seen liberals who can keep a level head and be respectful, they're just rare. I guess kinda like how it was rare amoung conservatives during the Bush era? When you have to 'defend your guy' against all the slings and arrows (some of which -are- preposterous) you can become too zealous and over compensate.

[Vodka2389]

Bush was indeed a disaster for the right wing, but they have to realize that candidates don't exist in a vacuum.

[soundmoneyfan]

is matt wearing some one else's sports coat? that thing needs a tailor, it is way too big

[MooseOfReason]

He said "right of center."  He didn't say how far from the center, heh.

[47f0]

Yeah. Well, conservatism has a tiny little identity problem. First, there's not adequate delineation between fiscal/government "conservatives" and evangelistic bat-shit fundamentalist Christian Taliban "conservatives" Second, even if the brand is able to shed the "god/guns/gays" single-issue crowd, about 90% of them would come away from being locked in a room with Goldwater for an hour with soiled panties.

[totalnerd747]

His right of center is a bit right of the people who take every problem and try to find the best solution possible. For certain tasks, individuals work best, for others collective bargaining has a significant advantage. To survive best and to optimize efficiency the logical conclusion is to make decisions for solving a given problem by the most logical solution and adjusting it as is required.

[NoMorFear]

"Right of center"

What is he talking about?

Technically, everyone is right of center in mainstream American politics, including Obama.

The Dems may be left of Reps in terms of the American political spectrum, but the American political spectrum is skewed and exists only in the right-authoritarian sector of the universal political spectrum.

[Anakha13]

The flaw with that theory is an apparent lack of left-authoritarian from your vision of the universal political spectrum.

[NoMorFear]

What are you talking about...

Extreme left authoritarian would be like Stalin and then other less authoritarian collectivist ideologies.

If you're for private property and you're for pirvate control over the means of production, Obama is both, then you are right of center. Every American preisdent has been this, that is a given.

Even literal Fascism is just right of center, though totalitarian, because of its corporatist/state capitalist structure.

[Anakha13]

I'm not talking extreme left authoritarianism. I'm talking about an apparent lack of left authoritarianism in your view of the political spectrum. You're making it sound like anything to the right of Soviet Communism is right of center.

The very existence of the progressive income tax, Medicare, Social Security makes your claim seem pretty tenuous.

[jefevonQ]

People need to quite calling Stalin 'left wing'! A dictator is just a dictator. They just use whatever political system they can to gain power. No one knows how ahead of time, even the person in question. Can you imagine the power available to an Evangelical right winger (neo-con) after a major terrorist attack that leaves many people, or a whole city, dead! Dictatorial theocracy anyone?

[standj21]

I couldn't agree with you more. I feel as though I've been betrayed.

[TenseAlcyoneus]

I'm a lifelong Republican. I spent 20 years trying to achieve Republican control of Congress. We did it. Then what happened? Did one law get repealed? Did one oppressive federal agency get disbanded? Did government shrink?

No. No. No.

I HATE the Republican leadership. They betrayed constitutional conservatives and libertarian-conservatives.

The Republican leadership must be ousted. Until that happens, I'm not giving anything - neither time nor money. Screw the RNC.

[h8uall66]

I couldn't agree with you more! Republican leadership controlled Congress for six years and only served to make government larger and more able to interfere in our personal lives. And so many "conservatives" that I would meet totally supported these un-Republican actions. I felt like I was living in Bizarro world.

[EvilDandy]

Remember during the Republican nomination debates all the candidates save Ron Paul kept evoking Reagan's name while mocking Dr. Paul, the only one who actually stood for Reagan's ideology. Talk about Bizarro world.