First line of the Iliad, "Sing, Hera, of the wrath of Achilles."
The lad threw a major mardy (or got a massive cob on, depending on your preference) and jeopardised the whole war over Briseis. Having Brad, sorry ACHILLES running after Briseis was possibly the least unbelievable part of the film for me.
@EsraYmssik1 Briseis in the film combines many characters. She is the slave girl whom Agamemnon takes from Achilles (Briseis). She is also the priestess of Apollo and daughter of Priam (Kassandra). She is the killer of Agamemnon (Klytaimnestra). She is the bed-mate of Achilles (Diomede). She is Priam’s young and beautiful virgin daughter (Polyxena). The Briseis of legend did not come from Troy at all, but was captured on the way there. "Rescue" does not equate to "capture".
@lindybeige As I said, LEAST UNBELIEVABLE part of the movie. :)
As for the rest of it, I think just about every video you've posted essentially debunks this move. Even the one where the horse kicks you in the vineyard (that sounds REALLY painful).
@EsraYmssik1 "Having Brad, sorry ACHILLES running after Briseis was possibly the least unbelievable part of the film for me."
Dunno. After all, the Trojan war was fought because Mrs Menelaus ran off with someone else. Afterwards Odysseus spent 10 years trying to get home to his wife and at one point in the story Zeus forgets matters of state because Hera told him it was his lucky night. Overall, most of the heroes and heroines in the Illiad appear to have their brains somewhere between their ..
I agree that Achilles was dead and all that stuff before the horse, but I don't think Achilles rushing in to save Briseis is that inconcievable. After all, Briseis was his prize, he gets into a big arguement with Agamemnon when Agamemnon says he'll try to take Briseis away. He wouldn't be going in after Briseis for love, but he would be defening his honour and saving his property.
@lindybeige I heard that Odysseus pretended to be insane to resist the draft, but the king didn't fall for it. The king then recruited Odysseus to find Achilles (who his mother changed into a woman as a disguise and hid him in a brothel). Odysseus dressed up as a peddler giving an assortment of goods to the prostitutes. When Achilles reached for the sword (among the goods), Odysseus knew who he really was. Maybe this was a different version? Or a different work altogether and I forgot the names?
@godofimagination There are many versions. Often Achilles in housed with the king of Skyros. Often it is told that Odysseus got his men to fake an attack, and Achilles grabbed a weapon to join the fight. Yes, one legend tells of men sent to persuade Odysseus to join the campaign and his feigning madness by ploughing with an unmatched span. There was no 'draft' though, just a serious of social norms and obligations which could be awkward to dodge.
I would like to point out that the movie "Troy" is true to Greek culture, based on the Greeks romanticising tales of valour for many years. Albeit, they may have used a different word to describe the altering of tales, as the Romans did not exist yet.
Hollywood are going to do a movie about the viking Röde Orm (The long ships) 2013.. I cant wait to see one of my favorite books get defiled just like the memory of Achilles and the spirit of Tolkien
@cilibinarii They had all colours of hair, and though shorter than people today, were normal height for their day. The most common hair colour in Homer is Xanthos - the colour of honey.
@lindybeige Mother of God! I may be descending from Greeks? I wonder why I've grown up thinking black is the original colour, or the most normal from that part of the world. I'm Swedish btw :)
The film Troy had a bronze sword slice through a solid gold statue like a fanboy's katana through a tank made of butter. Now admittedly I don't have a bronze sword or a solid gold statue to test that, but I'm iffy on just how easy that is to pull off..
I read from somewhere that at the site of turkey troy there were many cities built one on top of another throughout ages. That wall might not belong to troy, even it was actually the site of troy.
@Keasri There are nine Troys, each atop the last. The walls in this video are the right age and style for Homer's Troy, and match his descriptions in a few detailed ways, but you are right in that there is no decisive proof.
@lindybeige Can you do a video on the type of armor used in the Legend of Zelda video games. specifically, the tunic with chain mail under it that link wears in every game and the Master Sword that is based upon the mythical Japanese "grass cutter sword" legend?
@lindybeige Can you do a video about Flails? I wonder how they use it. Do they spin it around idly and smash it into the enemy given the chance, or do they just smash it into the enemy's face without any fancies. How do they don't have any accidents of hitting themselves with a flail?
And other than attacking the armor gaps, are there any other way to penetrate a plate armor? The heavily armored part, I mean. Of course, during the times they were still effective, otherwise I'd use a rifle.
Troy is defiantly one of my more favorite 'ancient' history movies even with the pointed out inaccuracies. I liked how it didn't include the greek's gods in physical form unlike portrayed in the iliad, much like it might have been back in the day. If I remember right, Paris (sp?) shoots Achilles outside the gates of troy before the horse is constructed? I haven't read the story in such a long time. Still, a fun movie that stays mostly on track and possess the greatest 1v1 fight scene imo.
Man, I wish you had taught history to me in high school. My teachers insisted in talking only about pre-history and national history at the time. I don't mean to take a proverbial piss in your pocket, but a good teacher like you coupled with my interest in history would have made me a teacher today.
@lindybeige I haven't heard that one before, but I have heard the idea that the the giants/cyclopses that bombarded Aeneas' ships (or Odysseus', I forget which one) from great cliffs on the shore of the sea were actually early norsemen throwing rocks over the fjords. They certainly would have seemed like giants to the short, primitive Greeks XD
Did the greeks always use big spears? Did the macedonians start it? Wouldn't it be hard to use big spears in sieges? Wouldn't it be easy for the defenders to just sit on the top of the wall and poke the guy under you with your spear?
I know that's a lot of questions, but since schools out i can't ask my history teacher and frankly i don't know how much i can trust wikipedia.
@skolvold In the ancient world the Macedonians were the first to use massive pike blocks in open battle. Homer writes of boarding pikes used on ships. They were not siege weapons. Defenders preferred to use missiles.
@skolvold One of the problems about poking downwards with a spear is that the other guy can grab it (lucky grab). There are numerous other problems with them, such as getting shot while you expose yourself to poke downwards, which is why (for once Hollywood has gotten this right, I have yet to see spear armed defenders poking over walls) they were never used in that manner. I know this wasn't aimed at me, but I thought I'd take a jab at it anyhow. A questions a question :P. Good luck with more.
Lindy...I'm currently reading the Iliad for the first time.(I was reading Ovid's Metamorphoses and had to see it through first before I started another work) A great point made about a lack of "duty" for Achilles and as most of my Professors have pointed out he was simply in it for Kleos("Clay-os" Greek term for Glory) The Greek idea of Kleos imposed this idea of "he who has the most booty or treasure wins" Thats why Briseis is vital to the story. Old Agamemnon was taking away his Kleos.
The Iliad is a myth about events that might have occured, but that is told in the eyes of people living 1 or 2 centuries later. Achilles, if he existed, would have been a noble who fought under a king for his own sake, but the fleet, the weapons and the armor are those of classical greek. If Achilles existed, he would have more probably worn an armour like those found at Dendra
I thought that we all knew that the "Troy" movie is based on the myth, it`s a fantasy film and nothing more. And as a hollywood fantasy film, it`s quite enjoyable at that level.
Are those walls of the same style as the ones at the right level for the approximate historical event, as the city has roughly 20ish layers of occupation found so far?
@733835 'Troy' has good elements and bad elements. They got a lot of things right and a lot of things wrong. Hisarlik has 9 distinct occupation levels, and the walls I stand next to in this video are the prime candidate for the walls of Homer's Troy (level VII).
...continuing after YouTube's character limit, that oath sworn to Helen's father meant that every king of Greece had to help rescue Helen/take her back from Troy, so they all had a "duty" there. All, save Achilles, as he was too young when this happened, and had not even been there with the other kings (his father, Peleus, was already married to Thetis so he wasn't there either).
So there you have it, the story of it, at least :)
@lindybeige Definitely, the most important thing to all of them (in the narrative, not the actual people who did the shacking - they just wanted loot and land) was Glory, and how they would be remembered in the future.
As the story goes, every single king of Greece had gone to ask for Helen's hand in marriage. Helen's father, seeing he could not give her to anyone without risking a bloobath in his house, made them all swear to oath; that they would forever protect Helen and her husband, whoever that may be. All Greek kings swore the oath (maybe except Odysseus, who already had his eyes on Helen's sister, Penelope). Helen was them married to Menelaus (he was Agamemnon's brother, so a perfect choice for power).
well in the defense of brad pitt as a character, and the style of the movie, it LOOKS alot more mycenean than the last movie helen of troy which admittedly follows the illiad alot more to the letter for example everyone dies at the rate they are roughly supposed to.
and they mention the sacrifice of agamemnons daughter
problem is everyone is dressed in the fashion of classical athens and achilles is a muscle boundbrute rather than a lithe and lean fighter that achilles i think supposedly was
@elgostine I thought Brad Pitt was well cast. He looked the part. He played the part as a wilful, arrogant, overgrown baby, which is what he is in Homer. A bit over-muscled perhaps.
@elgostine Presumably it is meant to be a show of honour or bravado, but I think the real reason is that the fight choreographer didn't think a fight with shields would look as pretty. Yes Achilles was fleet of foot. Some primitive tribal people today get fairly muscular, but there is a look of the inflated modern body-builder that seems artificial somehow. Mr PItt had a body-double for a lot of shots of his muscles.
It has to do with the City State system. Achilles wasn't really part of the "army". Just a good fighter, but that's what it seems to me ;). Lucky you got to visit Hisarlik. Another great video :D.
Maybe she was really that hot so Achilles really really wanted to mount her after long days of fighting :) Also the point about duty is very interesting and new to me. Thumbs up.
Although your third point isn't the strongest... he actually stops to fight because the girl is took away from him so it's plausible he had perhaps a stronger attachment or at least fascination towards her...
@winterlord21 It's a movie about a legend, so there is a lot of licence, but I suppose what struck me was the lack of faithfulness to the character of Achilles. Yes, if I make a film about Superman, I might make him German, and do away with the silly red cape, but then is this any longer a film about Superman?
1) valid points about Achilles in the movie 'Troy', but if you wanna be accurate about it, the biggest problem is Agamemnon dying in Troy thus negating all of the oresteia trilogy. 2) The Iliad is a product of mythological oral tradition attributed to a person (Homer) who most possibly, never existed and is also fictional. Therefore the Hollywood variation of a myth, cannot exactly be scrutinized under Historical terms.
Well pretty much all of the other generals had "duty" as you call it. I mean they all took an oath that if any man should steal away Helen from the man her father picked, they would be forced to make war on him. Achilles however was not there for that oath because he was not one of Helen's suitors (in fact he was a boy at the time) and was only brought into the war (despite his mother dressing him up like a girl) because an oracle said he was needed to win. No wonder they didn't mention duty...
@tewalker13 True, although this oath is not mentioned in the Iliad either. It would have been interesting if one of the oath-takers had not fought so hard. The Iliad stresses that all the heroes are out for glory and booty.
Not to mention that the events in the iliad took place over the course of 10 years, at the end of the movie the baby is still a baby, the ancient looking king of Troy is still somehow clinging to life and the wives of Paris and Hector are looking good as ever.
Huh, you're such a skeptic, Lloyd. I think it is a perfectly feasible suggestion that a dead man could jump from a huge non-existent wooden horse to save a strange woman who was somewhere else.
Very good video. It's nice to get a shot of the walls of Troy! But you're very right in the sense of Achillies' "duty"- there was none. In the Iliad (as opposed to the Hollywood film), the kings who fought under Agamemnon only even had their "duty" because they had been suitors to Helen and swore an oath to protect her. Achillies was under no such bind.
@Nardypants my History professor had a colleague who was invited to be a historical advisor to a movie, he was asked one question during the whole film(yet said quiet a lot) and enjoyed tea under the tent
@Nardypants hehe in response to that... my history proffessor had a colleague who was invited to be the historical advisor for some minor film. He was asked one question, which his expertise was still ignored, and brought to their attention alot of other historical issues of which were ignored. I would much rather enjoy a film that is as accurate as our records can provide then pure nonsense.
@ArtiKard romance is modern, pre modern considered it infatuation with another lover as different than lust and problematic to social bonds hence y affairs were normal, and cheating was normal. :D
@pugilistofpower Homer gives no hint of any homosexual passion between the two men, and he makes it clear that they both slept with women in their huts. This idea was added by later writers.
First line of the Iliad, "Sing, Hera, of the wrath of Achilles."
The lad threw a major mardy (or got a massive cob on, depending on your preference) and jeopardised the whole war over Briseis. Having Brad, sorry ACHILLES running after Briseis was possibly the least unbelievable part of the film for me.
EsraYmssik1 1 month ago
@EsraYmssik1 Briseis in the film combines many characters. She is the slave girl whom Agamemnon takes from Achilles (Briseis). She is also the priestess of Apollo and daughter of Priam (Kassandra). She is the killer of Agamemnon (Klytaimnestra). She is the bed-mate of Achilles (Diomede). She is Priam’s young and beautiful virgin daughter (Polyxena). The Briseis of legend did not come from Troy at all, but was captured on the way there. "Rescue" does not equate to "capture".
lindybeige 1 month ago
@lindybeige As I said, LEAST UNBELIEVABLE part of the movie. :)
As for the rest of it, I think just about every video you've posted essentially debunks this move. Even the one where the horse kicks you in the vineyard (that sounds REALLY painful).
EsraYmssik1 1 month ago
@EsraYmssik1 "Having Brad, sorry ACHILLES running after Briseis was possibly the least unbelievable part of the film for me."
Dunno. After all, the Trojan war was fought because Mrs Menelaus ran off with someone else. Afterwards Odysseus spent 10 years trying to get home to his wife and at one point in the story Zeus forgets matters of state because Hera told him it was his lucky night. Overall, most of the heroes and heroines in the Illiad appear to have their brains somewhere between their ..
oarfrost 1 month ago
I agree that Achilles was dead and all that stuff before the horse, but I don't think Achilles rushing in to save Briseis is that inconcievable. After all, Briseis was his prize, he gets into a big arguement with Agamemnon when Agamemnon says he'll try to take Briseis away. He wouldn't be going in after Briseis for love, but he would be defening his honour and saving his property.
legendsofgrine 1 month ago
It seems weird that they bribed him after drafting him.
godofimagination 2 months ago
@godofimagination They didn't draft him. In the legend, he wanted to go.
lindybeige 2 months ago
@lindybeige I heard that Odysseus pretended to be insane to resist the draft, but the king didn't fall for it. The king then recruited Odysseus to find Achilles (who his mother changed into a woman as a disguise and hid him in a brothel). Odysseus dressed up as a peddler giving an assortment of goods to the prostitutes. When Achilles reached for the sword (among the goods), Odysseus knew who he really was. Maybe this was a different version? Or a different work altogether and I forgot the names?
godofimagination 2 months ago
@godofimagination There are many versions. Often Achilles in housed with the king of Skyros. Often it is told that Odysseus got his men to fake an attack, and Achilles grabbed a weapon to join the fight. Yes, one legend tells of men sent to persuade Odysseus to join the campaign and his feigning madness by ploughing with an unmatched span. There was no 'draft' though, just a serious of social norms and obligations which could be awkward to dodge.
lindybeige 2 months ago
I would like to point out that the movie "Troy" is true to Greek culture, based on the Greeks romanticising tales of valour for many years. Albeit, they may have used a different word to describe the altering of tales, as the Romans did not exist yet.
inklimited00 2 months ago
Man..you're like a...histosopher! (historian+philosopher)
Alkanizator 6 months ago
@firewishes I can't talk fast enough.
lindybeige 7 months ago 15
Hollywood are going to do a movie about the viking Röde Orm (The long ships) 2013.. I cant wait to see one of my favorite books get defiled just like the memory of Achilles and the spirit of Tolkien
giftsvampen 7 months ago
"Read the Iliad if you want to check"
Likely? I get the feeling most people on YouTube think Homer is a fat yellow guy with a doughnut fixation.
;)
wesmatron 7 months ago
My problem with the movie "Troy" was simply this: Brad Pitt is too much a pussy to be an Achilles.
Polymarkos 7 months ago
@Polymarkos Actually I thought his casting was fine. A big blond pretty petulant boy. That's Achilles.
lindybeige 7 months ago 18
@lindybeige But Pit is utterly lacking the pathological murderous rage that made Achilles so dangerous, otherwise you are spot on.
Polymarkos 7 months ago
@lindybeige Weren't the Ancient Greeks brown-haired and skin and not very tall?
cilibinarii 2 months ago
@cilibinarii They had all colours of hair, and though shorter than people today, were normal height for their day. The most common hair colour in Homer is Xanthos - the colour of honey.
lindybeige 2 months ago
@lindybeige Mother of God! I may be descending from Greeks? I wonder why I've grown up thinking black is the original colour, or the most normal from that part of the world. I'm Swedish btw :)
Hyland0r 2 months ago
@Polymarkos So, you think Brad Pitt acted himself during that movie? :o weird
Hyland0r 2 months ago
The film Troy had a bronze sword slice through a solid gold statue like a fanboy's katana through a tank made of butter. Now admittedly I don't have a bronze sword or a solid gold statue to test that, but I'm iffy on just how easy that is to pull off..
Wirrn 8 months ago
I read from somewhere that at the site of turkey troy there were many cities built one on top of another throughout ages. That wall might not belong to troy, even it was actually the site of troy.
Keasri 8 months ago
@Keasri There are nine Troys, each atop the last. The walls in this video are the right age and style for Homer's Troy, and match his descriptions in a few detailed ways, but you are right in that there is no decisive proof.
lindybeige 8 months ago
@lindybeige Can you do a video on the type of armor used in the Legend of Zelda video games. specifically, the tunic with chain mail under it that link wears in every game and the Master Sword that is based upon the mythical Japanese "grass cutter sword" legend?
deathsminion25 8 months ago
@deathsminion25 I have never played this game, nor do I have plans to stray quite so far from the bounds of historical possibility.
lindybeige 8 months ago
@lindybeige Here is a link to the picture of the hero of the game, images.wikia (dot) com/zelda/images/3/3c/Link_%28Super_Smash_Bros._Brawl%29.png
I am referring more to the idea that middle age warriors went around wearing chain mail, a tunic and carried a sword and shield all the time.
deathsminion25 8 months ago
@lindybeige Can you do a video about Flails? I wonder how they use it. Do they spin it around idly and smash it into the enemy given the chance, or do they just smash it into the enemy's face without any fancies. How do they don't have any accidents of hitting themselves with a flail?
And other than attacking the armor gaps, are there any other way to penetrate a plate armor? The heavily armored part, I mean. Of course, during the times they were still effective, otherwise I'd use a rifle.
puenboy1 8 months ago
I think we all want booty, dont we?
S2Global 8 months ago
Troy is defiantly one of my more favorite 'ancient' history movies even with the pointed out inaccuracies. I liked how it didn't include the greek's gods in physical form unlike portrayed in the iliad, much like it might have been back in the day. If I remember right, Paris (sp?) shoots Achilles outside the gates of troy before the horse is constructed? I haven't read the story in such a long time. Still, a fun movie that stays mostly on track and possess the greatest 1v1 fight scene imo.
Cakevspie94 8 months ago
Man, I wish you had taught history to me in high school. My teachers insisted in talking only about pre-history and national history at the time. I don't mean to take a proverbial piss in your pocket, but a good teacher like you coupled with my interest in history would have made me a teacher today.
UncleJunkyard 8 months ago
LindyBeige only has one shirt, the one with the popped collars.
pmendes99 8 months ago 3
@pmendes99 I have several. They are all slightly different shades of beige.
lindybeige 8 months ago 5
I read somewhere that Swedes are the Thaciens of Troy. Is this true?
norseczar27 8 months ago
@norseczar27 This seems unlikely, if Troy were in Turkey. Other theories have placed Troy far afield. one serious (old) theory placed it in Britain.
lindybeige 8 months ago
@lindybeige I haven't heard that one before, but I have heard the idea that the the giants/cyclopses that bombarded Aeneas' ships (or Odysseus', I forget which one) from great cliffs on the shore of the sea were actually early norsemen throwing rocks over the fjords. They certainly would have seemed like giants to the short, primitive Greeks XD
beardiebuddy 8 months ago
Did the greeks always use big spears? Did the macedonians start it? Wouldn't it be hard to use big spears in sieges? Wouldn't it be easy for the defenders to just sit on the top of the wall and poke the guy under you with your spear?
I know that's a lot of questions, but since schools out i can't ask my history teacher and frankly i don't know how much i can trust wikipedia.
skolvold 8 months ago
@skolvold In the ancient world the Macedonians were the first to use massive pike blocks in open battle. Homer writes of boarding pikes used on ships. They were not siege weapons. Defenders preferred to use missiles.
lindybeige 8 months ago
@skolvold One of the problems about poking downwards with a spear is that the other guy can grab it (lucky grab). There are numerous other problems with them, such as getting shot while you expose yourself to poke downwards, which is why (for once Hollywood has gotten this right, I have yet to see spear armed defenders poking over walls) they were never used in that manner. I know this wasn't aimed at me, but I thought I'd take a jab at it anyhow. A questions a question :P. Good luck with more.
tomcat2222 8 months ago
Ah yes Troy...another Hollywood mess up.
YOU SACK OF WINE! haha
toddy2cool 8 months ago
Lindy...I'm currently reading the Iliad for the first time.(I was reading Ovid's Metamorphoses and had to see it through first before I started another work) A great point made about a lack of "duty" for Achilles and as most of my Professors have pointed out he was simply in it for Kleos("Clay-os" Greek term for Glory) The Greek idea of Kleos imposed this idea of "he who has the most booty or treasure wins" Thats why Briseis is vital to the story. Old Agamemnon was taking away his Kleos.
Sixx28 8 months ago
The Iliad is a myth about events that might have occured, but that is told in the eyes of people living 1 or 2 centuries later. Achilles, if he existed, would have been a noble who fought under a king for his own sake, but the fleet, the weapons and the armor are those of classical greek. If Achilles existed, he would have more probably worn an armour like those found at Dendra
maaderllin 8 months ago
Dah! Almost none of these are allowed to be played "on mobile"!
Vincgetorix 8 months ago
I thought that we all knew that the "Troy" movie is based on the myth, it`s a fantasy film and nothing more. And as a hollywood fantasy film, it`s quite enjoyable at that level.
Are those walls of the same style as the ones at the right level for the approximate historical event, as the city has roughly 20ish layers of occupation found so far?
733835 8 months ago
@733835 'Troy' has good elements and bad elements. They got a lot of things right and a lot of things wrong. Hisarlik has 9 distinct occupation levels, and the walls I stand next to in this video are the prime candidate for the walls of Homer's Troy (level VII).
lindybeige 8 months ago
@lindybeige
Thanks.
733835 8 months ago
...continuing after YouTube's character limit, that oath sworn to Helen's father meant that every king of Greece had to help rescue Helen/take her back from Troy, so they all had a "duty" there. All, save Achilles, as he was too young when this happened, and had not even been there with the other kings (his father, Peleus, was already married to Thetis so he wasn't there either).
So there you have it, the story of it, at least :)
JulianGellert 8 months ago
@JulianGellert True, although there is no hint in Homer that this is why the other heroes fight. They all seem very keen to compete for glory.
lindybeige 8 months ago
@lindybeige Definitely, the most important thing to all of them (in the narrative, not the actual people who did the shacking - they just wanted loot and land) was Glory, and how they would be remembered in the future.
JulianGellert 8 months ago
As the story goes, every single king of Greece had gone to ask for Helen's hand in marriage. Helen's father, seeing he could not give her to anyone without risking a bloobath in his house, made them all swear to oath; that they would forever protect Helen and her husband, whoever that may be. All Greek kings swore the oath (maybe except Odysseus, who already had his eyes on Helen's sister, Penelope). Helen was them married to Menelaus (he was Agamemnon's brother, so a perfect choice for power).
JulianGellert 8 months ago
well in the defense of brad pitt as a character, and the style of the movie, it LOOKS alot more mycenean than the last movie helen of troy which admittedly follows the illiad alot more to the letter for example everyone dies at the rate they are roughly supposed to.
and they mention the sacrifice of agamemnons daughter
problem is everyone is dressed in the fashion of classical athens and achilles is a muscle boundbrute rather than a lithe and lean fighter that achilles i think supposedly was
elgostine 8 months ago
@elgostine I thought Brad Pitt was well cast. He looked the part. He played the part as a wilful, arrogant, overgrown baby, which is what he is in Homer. A bit over-muscled perhaps.
lindybeige 8 months ago
@lindybeige oover muscled? just how lean was achilles?
correct me i im wrong but apparently achilleswas supposed to be a very fleet of foot type of fighter, shich is portrayed beautifully in the movie.
ironically, i seem to have , taken a liking to his style of movement, and in various games taken to fighting in the same manner,
whats your take on the idea of casting away a shield when your opponent loses his? i remember seeing that it occured in the opening of the colosseum
elgostine 8 months ago
@elgostine Presumably it is meant to be a show of honour or bravado, but I think the real reason is that the fight choreographer didn't think a fight with shields would look as pretty. Yes Achilles was fleet of foot. Some primitive tribal people today get fairly muscular, but there is a look of the inflated modern body-builder that seems artificial somehow. Mr PItt had a body-double for a lot of shots of his muscles.
lindybeige 8 months ago
It has to do with the City State system. Achilles wasn't really part of the "army". Just a good fighter, but that's what it seems to me ;). Lucky you got to visit Hisarlik. Another great video :D.
bdd458 8 months ago
Maybe she was really that hot so Achilles really really wanted to mount her after long days of fighting :) Also the point about duty is very interesting and new to me. Thumbs up.
PsykoOps 8 months ago
Lloyd,if you make a jump to Athens at some point I'll be more than happy to show you around,if you've got nobody else here I mean.Big fan.
yanniskusogaki 8 months ago
@yanniskusogaki Thanks. No plans to go there in the foreseeable future, but good to know none-the-less. I've been there many times.
lindybeige 8 months ago
Ah, the Dulcinea Effect. Indeed a rather annoying Hollywood tendency.
emu4286 8 months ago
Although your third point isn't the strongest... he actually stops to fight because the girl is took away from him so it's plausible he had perhaps a stronger attachment or at least fascination towards her...
winterlord21 8 months ago
@winterlord21 It's a movie about a legend, so there is a lot of licence, but I suppose what struck me was the lack of faithfulness to the character of Achilles. Yes, if I make a film about Superman, I might make him German, and do away with the silly red cape, but then is this any longer a film about Superman?
lindybeige 8 months ago
History?Common sense?Bah,get those pesky things out of the way!We have money to make!Delicious money!
GreenEyedSerb 8 months ago
Do a point about the movie Pathfinder and set people straight about the Viking colonization of New Foundland.
norseczar27 8 months ago
great stuff as always
peterbaelish3 8 months ago
1) valid points about Achilles in the movie 'Troy', but if you wanna be accurate about it, the biggest problem is Agamemnon dying in Troy thus negating all of the oresteia trilogy. 2) The Iliad is a product of mythological oral tradition attributed to a person (Homer) who most possibly, never existed and is also fictional. Therefore the Hollywood variation of a myth, cannot exactly be scrutinized under Historical terms.
GhostXDog 8 months ago
@GhostXDog True, although I'd say that far bigger a no-no was killing Menelaos.
lindybeige 8 months ago
Well pretty much all of the other generals had "duty" as you call it. I mean they all took an oath that if any man should steal away Helen from the man her father picked, they would be forced to make war on him. Achilles however was not there for that oath because he was not one of Helen's suitors (in fact he was a boy at the time) and was only brought into the war (despite his mother dressing him up like a girl) because an oracle said he was needed to win. No wonder they didn't mention duty...
tewalker13 8 months ago
@tewalker13 True, although this oath is not mentioned in the Iliad either. It would have been interesting if one of the oath-takers had not fought so hard. The Iliad stresses that all the heroes are out for glory and booty.
lindybeige 8 months ago
is the the supposed troy i keep seeing in text books
kaindrg 8 months ago
Not to mention that the events in the iliad took place over the course of 10 years, at the end of the movie the baby is still a baby, the ancient looking king of Troy is still somehow clinging to life and the wives of Paris and Hector are looking good as ever.
Kooletz71 8 months ago
Huh, you're such a skeptic, Lloyd. I think it is a perfectly feasible suggestion that a dead man could jump from a huge non-existent wooden horse to save a strange woman who was somewhere else.
TheMetalPenguin 8 months ago
Very good video. It's nice to get a shot of the walls of Troy! But you're very right in the sense of Achillies' "duty"- there was none. In the Iliad (as opposed to the Hollywood film), the kings who fought under Agamemnon only even had their "duty" because they had been suitors to Helen and swore an oath to protect her. Achillies was under no such bind.
nuge202 8 months ago
@nuge202 Good point.
lindybeige 8 months ago
This made me laugh :-D
Yrie27 8 months ago
Hollywood inaccuracies.... as you have said in the past, even if they had a history advisor, they probably just told him to shut up... :P
Nardypants 8 months ago 29
@Nardypants my History professor had a colleague who was invited to be a historical advisor to a movie, he was asked one question during the whole film(yet said quiet a lot) and enjoyed tea under the tent
BrazenMudrain 8 months ago
@Nardypants Hollywood produces movies meant for entertainment, not documentaries to educate.
XanderCage416 8 months ago
@Nardypants hehe in response to that... my history proffessor had a colleague who was invited to be the historical advisor for some minor film. He was asked one question, which his expertise was still ignored, and brought to their attention alot of other historical issues of which were ignored. I would much rather enjoy a film that is as accurate as our records can provide then pure nonsense.
BrazenMudrain 8 months ago
Maybe the woman was the love of his life ;)?
ArtiKard 8 months ago
@ArtiKard romance is modern, pre modern considered it infatuation with another lover as different than lust and problematic to social bonds hence y affairs were normal, and cheating was normal. :D
kaindrg 8 months ago
@ArtiKard Wasn't Patroclus the love of his life? Or were they just really good friends?
pugilistofpower 8 months ago
@pugilistofpower Homer gives no hint of any homosexual passion between the two men, and he makes it clear that they both slept with women in their huts. This idea was added by later writers.
lindybeige 8 months ago
Love the history lessons! quite an inspirational man you are.
wheatl3y 8 months ago 16
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ArtiKard 8 months ago