The notion (lie) that Washington was not a devout Anglican is absurd. "To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our our HIGHEST GLORY to add the the more distinguished character of a Christian." -George Washington. So the people who claim our first President (selected by all the other founders to be the first President) was a great man are also saying he was a liar who publicly said words he did not mean. Hog wash. Our country in rooted in Christian moral values. Get over it.
The early Christian didn't want church/state together, nor Mennonites. Young men: wage PEACE! Learn The Truth: "Love your enemies" -Jesus. + Verses: Matthew 5:39, Luke 22:49-51, Colossians 3:15, Rom.12:20. The church in its earliest days was unanimously pacifist (choosing non-violent resistance/God's will instead of military participation). Jesus taught a "third way," as used by Dr. King or Gandhi successful in situations unbeatable by violence. Check out "Shane Claiborne + Pacifism" on Ytube.
Muuuhahahaha! Being around Halloween is a good time watch this. And, as silly and unreal as all those costumed kiddos are, so this is the video. A grizzled old man with a British accent and a scary-looking, shadowy man quoting out-of-context Founders quotes while glaring down at a camera doth not make fact. There is no question that America was founded on Christianity.
"The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity." -John Adams
@Kimjira1 Well, first of all I wasn't trying to make a defense. I was simply pointing out the error of the documentary and how gullible people are to simply believe unfounded statements.
Now, before I answer your challenge, I'll ask you two questions. 1.) Are you really seeking to have it proven to you, or is your mind already made up? 2.) WHAT would you expect to see by way of evidence if America was founded on Christianity?
@Kimjira1 Also, since you didn't refute what I originally said, it's nice to see that you agree that the documentary lacked real proof of its claims. Everyone is entitled to their own OPINION (which is what was expressed in this documentary), but no one is entitled his own FACTS.
I dont know who this Jahoshua is, Is he some name the jews came up with so they could call themselves messianic jews and continue to follow the babylonian talmud?
I dont know if you are a jew or a deceived christian, but the bible says the name of the savior is Jesus. Only the jews change his name so as not to be associated with the name christian.
I challenge everyone to read all those quotes in their context. They are being taken out of context in this video to mean something different than the context shows. Look it up!
@johnoliverclark It's true that the Adams quote is two separate quotes made years apart & made to seem like one very different meaning quote & should not have been included here. However, the assertion by Miller that these Presidents were not "devout Christians" & wanted the Church & State to be kept separate is correct, regardless of the context of their quotes. There are dozens of Jefferson quotes concerning religion that no modern day President would dare agree with.
Is AMerica a christian nation? I answer his as a christian: NO IT IS NOT,as there is no such thihg as a christian nation. when Jesus said "strait (ie small) is the gate and narrow the way and few there are who find it" he meant it. and how few were they to find it? too few to start a nation. besides when church and state get into bed with each other both are corrupted. the Religiuos Right sin against God when they try to deny this
@luterano1517 You are naming the few founding fathers that attempted to impose religious laws onto our nation. They were outnumbered by deists, atheists, and christians that actually wanted secularism (the majority of christians understood secularism was a good thing, unlike the ones of today)
The Declaration of Independence makes no reference to the separation of church and state. That "separation of church and state" concept (the original meaning not the modern meaning) was not applied until the Constitution is 1787.
@Pooternackle5 He said when we declared our independence in 1776 we enshrined into law that the church and state should be completely separate. The Bill of Rights didn't come about until 1791. Plus to say that we "enshrined into law that the church and state should be COMPLETELY separate" isn't necessarily incorrect if u take the original meaning of "separation of church and state" not the modern version that was invented in 1947.
American nation of the sun ..the religious Christian nation about to join the Greek and the Roman empires. Satan is the architect of religions. My Savior is YAHOSHUA send by YHWH MY CREATOR MY FATHER
Their hostility is on too interesting ground to be softened. The delusion into which the X. Y. Z. plot showed it possible to push the people; the successful experiment made under the prevalence of that delusion on the clause of the constitution, which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity
through the United States; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own, but especially the Episcopalians and Congregationalists. The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, and they believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn, upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.
People need to forget the bullshit history you learned in school. Washington and many other of our country were FreeMasons and members of the Illuminati. They believe in the light giver or Lucifer. Look at the Statue of Liberty and find out what she actually stand for. Please research it before calling me hateful names. The founding fathers were setting up a plan for the New World Order from the start. We have alway been under British Rule and we are slaves.
@tienen23 haha They did. I can't stand to hear morons call themselves "patriotic" because they wave a flag around and go to church. If George Washington would have heard this Christian Fundamentalist bullshit, he seriously would have jumped up out of his seat and exclaimed "GTFO!". True- a lot of the forefathers believed in the Christian "God" but they didn't support religion; they supported the basic principles that Jesus supposedly stood for (compassion, generosity, welfare, peace, etc.).
Fortunately for George, he died at least 30 years before the evangelical/fundamentalist movement began in the US. He was already annoyed with the conservative clergy trying to get Jesus written into the constitution, so I don't think a bunch of radical wackos coming to his front door to try to "save" him would've gone over too well.
What happens next if the argument ends, and everyone universally admits "we are a Christian Nation" or it's stamped into our Constitution. What happens next? What are the practical policy considerations? Are non-Christians to no longer have a voice or a vote? The commandments in the Bible are turned into law? What is supposed to happen as a result of us being "a Christian Nation". I think we get so caught up in arguing over whether we are or not, we never ask the "what if".
@usam1981 #6 Killing--okay, but this is in the laws of every nation, including non-Christian ones, and for good reason #7 adultery--not in Federal law, and not enforced in states that have it. Sorry--I don't buy that one. #8 steal--agree, see #6. #9 Lying--except under oath--the law does not forbid you to lie, and again see #6. #10 Coveting--I don't buy that one either. Americans covet left and right--capitalism depends on it.
@DandAinTac Just to quickly point out... #9 is sometimes more accurately translated as "thou shall not bear false witness" which implies that it is a prohibition against perjury. There is even one story in the bible that illustrates this, but it has been years since i read that section I am having trouble remembering it. Something about two authority figures (priests or something) try to blackmail a young virgin into sleeping with them by testifying that she killed someone important... o well.
@usam1981 #6 Killing--okay, but this is in the laws of every nation, including non-Christian ones, and for good reason #7 adultery--not in Federal law, and not enforced in states that have it. Sorry--I don't buy that one. #8 steal--agree, see #6. #9 Lying--except under oath--the law does not forbid you to lie, and again see #6. #10 Coveting--I don't buy that one either. Americans covet left and right--capitalism depends on it.
@usam1981 Our laws are based on the US Constitution, not the Bible, and the consent of the governed. If you want to believe the Ten Commandments are the law--then make them your law--believe me--neither I nor anyone else will try to stop you, but don't try to make them my law too.
I want someone who believes in the mantra that "we are a Christian Nation" to tell me what this means. In other words--let's suppose we are, and let's suppose the argument is over. What's supposed to happen at that point? What do you see as flowing from that notion? Are Christian churches supposed to be favored? Given tax money? Only Christians can hold office or vote? Legislation must pass Biblical scrutiny? What is supposed to happen as a result of us being a "Christian Nation"?
We are no longer a Christian nation we are a socialist nation now. It never works look at our economic collapse. The housing market. Can't sell houses anymore. No moral foundation in America means everybody is a dishonesty criminal. That negative equality weakens us. All equally poor.
@ToxicOdiousOne Um we are definitely not socialist. The economic crises of the last few years are easily attributed to scarcely regulated capitalism. I am by no means anti-capitalist but you have to at least acknowledge that it happened because of a lack of regulation. Respecting a person's right to live, speak and worship freely, and fair trials is actually quite moral. If everybody is a dishonest criminal that means you too right?
US liberty is grated first by a creator at birth and only recognized and upheld by the US constitution as a birth-right as such. Why, because if mere men or documents alone granted you liberty only a mere man or document can take it away! This is the distinction from American Liberty & why all men are created equal, evolution surly does not teach this but Christianity does. The basic notion of American liberty & freedom for all is by a God-given birth-right & a non-secular view historically.
@romansten9 Actually, a president has the right to not only swear on something other than the bible but they can refuse to swear at all. They "affirm" instead. It is considered equally valid, the difference is that this does not violate certain religious restrictions on swearing as well as allowing for those who are non-religious/atheist to take the oath without compromising their beliefs. I don't know how well I explained that... I haven't slept in a few days and just got done with a Calc exam.
While there was then, as now, diversity of religious belief amongst the founders, it's quite clear that the key founders, in their private letters and journals, were deeply skeptical of religion. Although one can find many allusions to God and "the almighty" in their public addresses--that was common political fodder then, as now. These men clearly meant to found a secular government and nation.
@DandAinTac Preach it Brother (or Sister)! Those who live under a theocracy (and make no mistake, a Christian Nation would be just that) understand better than we the value of a secular state. People quote Jefferson's references to 'God' constantly, but fail to acknowledge that he edited the entire Old Testament, Revelation, and miracles from his own Bible. Maybe not all the founders wanted separation; just the smartest ones.
@DandAinTac I don't know what private letters you have been reading, they must be from the founding fathers of russia. There are TONS of references to their faith in their letters and journals. Many of our founding fathers had cemenary degrees, and the entire Decleration of independance was taken from sermons of that day from major preachers. Someone asked Washington who the most important people in america were in his day, and he names preachers. Get used to it.
@usam1981 So what if many of them were Christians? They were all male also--does that make this a male nation? They were all white--are we a white nation? You may WANT our nation to be a theocracy, but it's quite clear the founders' intent was a SECULAR nation. Get used to it.
@DandAinTac An Anyone who sayw we want this country to be theocracy knows nothing about what we want. A theocracy is where there is no government but God. We don't want that. All we want is freedom of religion that is slowly beeing taken away from us. That is what the founding Fathers did not want. This concept of the founding fathers wanting a secular nation is new, and incorrect. Go back and read our founding fathers, and you will see what I mean.
@usam1981 Hey, then we agree. I want "freedom of religion", but that also necessarily includes "freedom from" if that's what I want. That's why the government must be strictly neutral toward religion--only then will freedom reign. I have not seen any restriction at all toward's the practice of religion, just resistance at the influence of government and religion upon each other. Please tell me how your freedom to practice is restricted.
@usam1981 I honestly am hoping for a reply to my questions. Maybe we might even find common ground. I'd like to know what you mean when you say "we are a Christian Nation," and what if the debate were over, and you won, and it is then stamped into the Constitution: "We are a Christian Nation". What is supposed to happen because of that? Also, how is your right to practice your religion being infringed?
@DandAinTac sorry, I was unable to get on yesterday, anyways, it is already stamped into our constitution, maybe not the exact words, but our laws are based off of christian beliefs. Also, our freedom to practice religion is constantly being infringed upon. The government it constantly forcing people to act acording to what it believes. They allow no prayer in schools, force people to take down copies of the 10 commandments, and many other instances.
@usam1981 The laws? Where do you get your history? Our laws are inspired by Greek and Roman rule, haha. And how is the "practice of religion" constantly infringed upon? Like the mosque being built around ground zero? And you say the "Government forcing people to act according to beliefs," like you don't want to force people to act accordingly to yours? and who makes up this government anyhow? THE PEOPLE DO. So the solution is is clear, there should never be incentive structure at the top...
@Blastfimus777 LOL, you are an idiot. If you believe that, then you know nothing about the greeks or romans. Our laws are biblical laws. Also, we do not force our beliefs on other people, unlike what you are trying to do with your posts. Moral people already act according to christian laws, even if they don't know they are doing it. Also, if you believe that the current government is run by the people then you are sadly maken. It is an unfortunate fact that the current governemt ignores us
@usam1981 Who is it run by then? haha...here's what you don't say because you don't have an answer. And where do you think the structure of our government comes from? (the house, the senate) how isn't this Roman? If you have so much more knowledge than me, well why don't you tell me who runs the US. And btw your not a moral person I can tell this from you comments. Most Christians do the moral talk and then stuff their faces with sin.
@Blastfimus777 One, democracy comes from the church, not from greek and Roman, The church was the first to VOTE for anyone to be in power, while greeks and romalns both had Practical Dictators in power, also, the house and senate are new, and nothing like what they had in either of those ages, believe me, I am VERY familiar with Greeks and Romans. Also, The current government runs itself, against the will of the american people, unfortunatly. They don't care about us.
@usam1981 Democracy came from what church? lmao. this is funny...I do agree with you about them not giving a shit. And the senate is older than Christ. I don't understand you...it's like you just make this stuff up and call it history, but I know better because I'm a Roman history buff. I don't know what to say, other than you just want to be right!? If you want the facts about the history of our government and it's foundations, you first must desire to know...
@usam1981 I detest you calling me an idiot for the FACT that western civilization is influenced by the Greeks and Romans. Children know this stuff, and this is all new to you? How old are you? I'm guessing 15.
@Blastfimus777 I call it like I see it, and if you want to proove me wrong, please, don't spout propoganda to me, I have heard it all before. When you say something intelligent about christians, I will stop thinking of you as an idiot. Yes, some of our country was influenced by the Greeks and Romans, but much of it was influenced by christians. I am older than you that I can tell you.
@usam1981 Propoganda? This is just sad folks. This man's history is based on his imagination. He thinks that democracy is a new idea and is not Greek in any form, but as he states, it's a new Christian idea and structure. And yet I'm the idiot I guess. Now he retracts his position and says "it was influenced by the Greeks/Romans."
This is so bad, I mean...I could lie about anything and everything to shortcut my thinking. This is what this man essentially does. His life is a lie.
@usam1981So, you believe the government should force teachers to make my children pray to your god in our public schools? Is that what's supposed to happen if we are a "Christian Nation?" I'm afraid I disagree with you then when you say it's not a theocracy. That's a key characteristic of a theocracy--enforcement of a particular religion upon everyone--with or without their consent. How is your freedom to practice being infringed?
@DandAinTac I love it when you take me out of context, no I don't want teachers to force children to pray, I want them to stop treating kids who pray to God like criminals. We don't force our ideas on others, but the current government is constantly. We don't want a theocracy. Get that into your mind. If you actually knew anytnig about christians, you would know that. It is impossible to force people to become christians.
@usam1981 Please give me an example of a teacher treating a kid like a criminal for praying on their own time in school. I never saw this when I was in school. But I understand how you feel. Search for "the price of atheism" on YouTube. A girl was persecuted by the school for being atheist. This works both ways. Legally, no one can stop your kid from praying during recess or lunch. So--is this what you mean by a "Christian Nation"--just that you are allowed to practice your religion?
@DandAinTac Either you are older than you seem, or you are blind. It happens all the time in Public schools. A number of schools have BANNED praying in their schools, unless they have a prayer mat and pray towards the east, then the schools have no problem letting them pray. If you are a christian, you are treated like trash. You want proof, they wanted to remove Under God from the pledge of allegance for one.
@usam1981 I just spent some time Googling on the Internet and I can't find any documented cases of any schools having a ban on prayer. My daughter just graduated from high school, and she can't remember ever once seeing a single example of anyone being persecuted or prevented from praying, and ditto for three other older stepdaughters, and my wife and I. The law is already on your side. If your child wants to pray quietly to themselves or in a nondisruptive way, the school cannot stop them.
So if someone is stopping your child from praying, I encourage you to sue the school, and the ACLU might even take your case as long as they weren't trying to get the other kids to pray with them. Furthermore, even as an atheist, I would totally side with you on this issue. The times when it becomes a problem is if they want to get up in front of class and say--"Let us all pray". THEN, I would have an issue with that.
Okay, when you say "they wanted to remove Under God"--who's "they"?
@DandAinTac The they are Most of the Democrat Congress, the Democrats in Senate, half of the members of the Supreme court, and Many more, so don't be such an idiot.
@usam1981 Again, I can find no evidence of this. Please tell me where I can find a link--you'll have to describe it without actually pasting it. I searched for "Did Democrats try to take "under God" out of the pledge?" and I can't find it. I'm pretty sure no national-level Democrat has made any attempt to do this. There might be a few state level Dems sprinkled around who might have advocated this--but that's as far as it has gone.
@usam1981 You know, I think you might be thinking of Michael Newdow, an atheist who filed suit to have "under God" taken out of the pledge. Even though I agree that "under God" should not have been added in the 50s, I think this is relatively trivial and symbolic. So let's go back to the original question. What does it mean for us to be a "Christian Nation"? Just that you are allowed to practice your religion? Are others equally free to practice whatever religion they want or none at all?
@DandAinTac@DandAinTac@DandAinTac Then you did not look hard enough, I searched it, and found more than a dozen links to it, prayer has been banned in school sinse 1962, right about the time that this myth about the founding fathers started. I tried to list a few adds, but I kept on getting errors from youtube, oddly enough, Oh, also, are you nuts, the ACLU would never back up a christian EVER, they hate christians, always have, always will.
@usam1981 What you are referring to is Engel v. Vitale. The was a Supreme Court decision that ruled that schools may not have children pray. Students can still pray on their own, but public schools cannot lead, compose, or endorse any prayer. You are wrong about the ACLU. They have backed the rights of religious people who were denied their rights many times. Google "ACLU defense of religious practice and expression." You got errors from YouTube because they won't let anyone paste links.
@DandAinTac Yeah, religious rights of anyone BUT CHRISTIANS. If you are a muslem, they will back you up, if you are hindu, they will back you up, but if you are a christian, they treat you like dirt. Oh, and is that so, do you know they tried to ban see you at the flag, a yearly christian prayer session. I bet you did not know that.
@usam1981 I know this is widely believed, and has become a mantra of sorts, but I have not yet seen evidence for this. Please provide evidence that Christians are not allowed to pray. I'm not talking about school sponsored prayer, or prayer pushed on captive audiences--I'm talking about a single school anywhere in the country where Christians are not allowed to pray on their own time.
@usam1981 Also, is this what you mean by a "Christian Nation"--just that you are allowed to practice Christianity? Do you believe other religions should have equal treatment? Or no religions? Do you believe the government should be neutral with regards to religion, or should Christianity be privileged? Do you agree with the right of me and my family to not have to pray or be coerced by the majority to do so?
@DandAinTac You have not been reading my posts very well if you have to ask those questions, that I have already answered. Please stop wasting my time with your useless drivel. I am not going to repeat myself. I have answered your questions, but if you ignore my answers, just like you ignore reality about christians, you will never get your answers, because you refuse to listen. Quit being so closed minded.
@usam1981 the reason that the United States was able to rebound from civil war to one of the worlds major super powers is because of speration of church and state...heres an idea that has probably not crossed your mind, you don't know whats out there and neither do I...so why don't you become more understanding of other religions I believe you have every right to be a christian...so you should understand that I have every right not to be
Every school student in the 1800's knew how intensely religious our founding fathers were. They knew the role that Christianity played in the founding of the US. They were taught the Bible in schools. They were taught the truth about the founding of the US. In the 1900's, the courts began ruling that textbooks couldn't include God anymore, so many things began to be deleted. We've been taught lies, and many of us don't even know it. Thankfully, the original books & documents show us the truth.
"Here is a list, of our US Founding Fathers faiths. Religious Affiliation in a 100% scale for you. Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7% Presbyterian 30 18.6% Congregationalist 27 16.8% Quaker 7 4.3% Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7% Lutheran 5 3.1% Catholic 3 1.9% Huguenot 3 1.9% Unitarian 3 1.9% Methodist 2 1.2% Calvinist 1 0.6% TOTAL 204 All Christian of their faiths, only 3 of them were not Church Members. Not random attendees. So, now what? "
"We have been assured, in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this; and that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel. I therefore beg to move that henceforth, prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven and its blessings be held in this assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that clergy of the city be requested to officiate." B Franklin
On July 4th, 1776, Congress appointed B. Franklin, T. Jefferson and J. Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night..." Franklin and Jefferson were among the most theologically liberal of the Founders, yet they used biblical imagery for this important task.
The "wall of separation between church and State" is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned." Justice William Rehnquist
Jefferson WAS NOT considered chief proponent of the Bill of Rights! They sent him for a reason. You Sir are a liar! George Mason IV (December 11, 1725 – October 7, 1792) was an American patriot, statesman, and delegate from Virginia to the U.S. Constitutional Convention. Along with James Madison, both are considered the "Fathers of the Bill of Rights." (Continued)
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
DELAWARE CONSTITUTION:1776 Article XXII: Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust, before taking his seat, or entering upon the execution of his office, shall take the following oath: "I, ___________, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ... His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."
@pyr666 Do you know what "religious test" even means? And how does this apply to preventing a student from saying a silent prayer, or even possessing a Bible in school? Or for quoting one of our founding fathers in school. The founders spoke of God so often that they can hardly be quoted in school. Things that were ok for >150 years. Its funny that the founders would write a constitution that prevented them from doing what THEY did constantly. Thats what this issue is really about.
@pyr666 Your topic was "religious tests" and I responded to it. If you were trying to hint at another topic, you should have said so. You also didn't answer any of my questions, so it appears that you are the one not staying on topic.
you quoted the delaware constitution stating it required a religious test to hold office. US constitution takes precedent.
"preventing a student from saying a silent prayer, or even possessing a Bible in school" ignoring that no one has prevented such actions, they weren't even present in your original post at all.
@pyr666 You said: "preventing a student from saying a silent prayer, or even possessing a Bible in school" ignoring that no one has prevented such actions"
Are you claiming that no one has prevented prayer and Bible reading in school? And to take it a step further, do you realize that students have been prevented from bowing their heads to say silent prayers and have been prevented from even carrying a Bible in school?
Saying prayers out loud and reading the Bible were ok for >150 years.
"Are you claiming that no one has prevented prayer and Bible reading in school?" when a student does so of their own accord? no, that's never happened. the school can't initiate prayers, however, which is what cases like Lemon v. Kurtzman were about.
@pyr666 The main point of all of this is the interpretation of the 1st amendment. Countless mixing of church and state happened for over 150 years. Why? Whats your answer to that?
My answer is that the 1st amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Where does it say "Congress shall not allow government and church to mix" It doesn't say ANYTHING LIKE THAT and the founders never wanted that much separation.
"It doesn't say ANYTHING LIKE THAT and the founders never wanted that much separation."
well first of all the constitution explicitly prevents religious tests for public office, which is yet another separation.
secondly, you really don't read up on the founders, do you? they frequently wrote about the dangers of state and religion influencing one another. the "separation of church and state" line actually came from Jefferson during his presidency!
@pyr666 You don't seem to even know when and where Jefferson said "separation" and what the context was. It wasn't even in his official duties. If it was so important, he would have said those words "on the record." He did not. Also, 2 days after he wrote those words, he attended church inside the US Capitol building. By today's interpretation, Jefferson violated his own "separation!" Absurd! He also did many other things that violated this "separation" myth!
he was allaying the fears of some group that feared they would be persecuted when some other group of christians tried to establish their sect as the state religion.
jefferson is well known to be a hypocrite. case and point, he wrote that all men were created equal, he even wrote in his paper that he wanted to abolish slavery in the constitution, but had slaves...
@pyr666 He had slaves because he couldn't get rid of them due to debt. It should also be noted that he treated his slaves with more respect than most slave owners, paying those who worked the hardest and actually employing some of them to be managers in a sense.
but that's besides the point. well treated slaves are still slaves. trying to justify something as deplorable as keeping slaves is just as deplorable and STILL hypocritical.
actually, if anything, that excuse makes what he did worse. it means he was trading the freedom of his countrymen, something he recognized them as (as opposed to how others may have seen it), for money.
@pyr666 It actually hasn't been proven that it was Thomas who slept with Sally, and that it was more likely to have been Thomas' brother. Thomas was in a bad position, because his creditors wouldn't let him just free his slaves, and he didn't want to sell them to someone who could have treated them poorly. I'm not saying his owning slaves was excusable, I'm just saying that there's a lot of misunderstandings about Jefferson's life.
@pyr666 Do you realize how different US history text books are if you examine a copy from the period: 1800-1947 and a copy from 1947 to now? In 1947, we began to hear about the "separation" idea, and it was decided that God needed to be deleted from the books and that church and state needed to be separated in increasing ways. (Yes, the founders believed in a small degree of separation) Now we are seeing huge amounts of separation, and the founder's own actions and words are being deleted.
@romansten9 They never had an official text book they taught from during 1800-1947 and I own one of the older versions of history from 1900. But it wasn't the standard or there was never just one everyone used. The only history about God is from the Bible. The problem with the founding fathers, so to say is...they weren't the shining examples as you would want to believe. And the separation...it's just the bullshit fervor that run this country and the people who vote. The US isn't sacred.
@Blastfimus777 I agree. The US isn't sacred and the founders weren't perfect. You claim I said this, but I didn't. And I agree with you that there were various books used in schools. But it was common to study the Bible and not only that, but to use the Bible in English class to teach students to read. Students were taught that the founders had faith in God, and that this faith shaped the foundation of the US. Now (in the last 50-60+ years, this isn't taught anymore) Its being covered up.
The citizens and the US Government were INTENSELY devoted to the Christian faith for over 150 years! Not until 1947 did the idea of trying to "separate church and state" come about (as we know of it today) The 1st Amendment was a limitation of government to not "make a law" establishing one Christian denom. This has never happened. Government is allowed to have church in Congress, pray, read the Bible in school, have national days of prayer, etc. JUST AS THEY HAVE BEEN DOING FOR >150 YRS.
“Our country was founded on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.” Patrick Henry
“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond; the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.” John Quincy Adams
Pure nonsense. So you are saying that a man who eliminated the entire Old Testament from his own Bible and authored the Bill for Religious Freedom in Virginia, disestablishing the Anglican church as state religion as well as rejecting a proposal to recognize other denominations, would agree to a Christian theology intruding into the affairs of government? Ridiculous. Jefferson, who did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, was the last person who wanted a "Christian Nation."
@tim| No. You are completely wrong. This is a Christian Nation from the beginning. Can you read? The entire reason why people today do NOT believe it was because they are too pampered and protected to know better. At that time they just got out of a Revolutionary War with a British king, who was getting direct advice from the Vatican. Jefferson struggled with his faith, so what? Only God knows if he was saved. This was and is a Christian Nation. We'll find out how Christian we are, in November.
@LambLion777 As if elections have anything to to with Christianity. Too pampered and protected to know better that what? That statement makes no sense at all. Just because many of the signers of the Constitution believed in some of the tenets of the Bible does not in any way mean they wanted a theocracy, and make no mistake, that's the implication. Whose church should run the country, yours or mine? Thank the creator that this is and always was has been a secular country.
@timp: If you are from the U. S. only have a college education and never served your county, you know what I mean. Don't be stupid. The Founders just saw a war, that they were very involved in. Writing the Constitution at that time.The problem they mainly debated, was the power of the Vatican, over the Kings of Europe. The lack of freedom they had over their own souls to read and worship God, themselves. Many children don't read this. Debates over this was a main argument, at this time.
@LambLion777 Freedom to worship (whichever deity), and to hold office no matter what denomination. "No religious Test shall ever be required as qualification to any Office or Public Trust under the United States." US Constitution, Article VI. Show where it mentions "Jesus" or "Christ." Theology may be used as a guide to ones personal conduct, not public governance. Do we post the 10 Commandments and along with them the punishments for their violation? Stoning for working on Saturday anyone?
@tim: You are right, Tim. But If you don't believe most of Founding Fathers of this Country were NOT Christian, then you're just plain ignorant and might be insane. Like I have stated, so many times before, people like you that write such blathering, about the USA. Can go live where they think they are more comfortable. Here is the thing, Elijah was right and you are wrong of the who is who of God. If I die at anytime, I proclaim, the God I serve is Christ Jesus and he was raised from the dead.
@LambLion777 Whether or not you, I, or the founding fathers are/were Christian is IRRELEVANT! A secular government is not an atheist government: It is based on reason rather than superstition or theology. I am the son of a Baptist minister who also believes in c/s separation. Would you want to go back to a time when you could not run for state office because you were of the wrong denomination? Even Turkey at 90% Muslim but is not an Islamic state: It is as secular as the US, Allah akbar.
Some Europeans, like the creep. Who made this video, don't know or care in the why, of this Country is so free. People who run against the good laws of God, especially in a Country that no longer follows good laws of God, is in real trouble. They don't let you know, in Mid-evil days over there,they used to cut peoples limbs off and kill citizens without human rights. Controlling souls who could NOT read the BIBLE. Only allowing for the rich to prosper, controlling the Blessings of who reads it.
@LambLion777 Did you not listen to the *American* voices on this video - to the voices of your "founding fathers". There is a case to be made that the US is in so much trouble because it has adopted direction taken from certain interpretation of Christianity.
The reason this Country is free is only due to it's Christian Roots otherwise you have the Government Control you and those in it. Charles Carroll: signer of the Declaration of Independence
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on Nov. 4, 1800.]
@LambLion777 The term is Medieval (middle ages) and is derived from the Latin medius (middle) and aevum (ages) and has naught to do with Evil. Much of the violence you refer to was committed by the Church in accordance with the laws and doctrines of the Old Testament. This began to abate with the Renaissance and it's 'Humanism" and discovery of Arab science, mathematics and astronomy and rediscovery of Greek and Roman philosophy, eventually leading to the Age of Reason (and rise of Deism).
No. It was Dark ages, because it was a time when people, were unable to read the Bible for themselves. Not free to worship God the way they wanted. Freedom derives from following moral righteousness & harmony in community with values & virtues of Gods' Truth, allowing HIS blessings. When the Church had control of scripture, it also had control over its' citizens & their own souls. Most was hidden from the public in scripture & written in Latin. History calls it the Medieval as a warning to US.
@History calls it Medieval because it is Latin for middle ages and was coined thus in the Renaissance. Though the latter period was famous as a reawakening, it was not a time of clairvoyance in which a great future power in the Americas was imagined and thus forewarned with the scary word "Medieval." There has also been a rethinking of the term "Dark Ages" as an equivalent to "Medieval" because there actually were a great number of achievements during this time.
@timpipe Would you want to go back to a time when you could not run for state office because you were of the wrong denomination?
You hit the nail right on the head. The main point of the 1st Amendment is to ease the worry that the Congress would create a law establishing ONE Christian denomination/religion.
In Contrast, it DOES NOT say that the Bible is to be kicked out of schools, or prayer, or that 10 commandments can't be posted, or the pledge of allegiance removed, etc.
The editor of the Constitution Gouverneur Morris and 1st Supreme Court Justice John Jay, use to argue this fact throughout their college days. Where they were best friends. Jay wanted a complete Protestant Nation,so mush so, he wanted to make laws against the Catholics, it educated men who knew those leaders, because our leaders here, were people, who were dealing with them, at this time. It is not, people who chose that sad way do make there own secularists.
@timpipe First of all, you are mis-representing Jefferson. But even if you were correct about him, do you realize he wasn't even in the country when the founders were forming the Constitution? The whole myth of "separation" is based on that letter Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist church, in which he was saying that government won't interfere with religious freedom and won't establish ONE Christian denomination. Thats the context. A NON OFFICIAL letter by a person out of the country.
@romansten9 I have read plenty of Jefferson, and yes, he was out of the country, unfortunately, because he was the chief proponent of the Bill of Rights. And it was not just one damned letter! Many correspondences with his contemporaries mentioned this, though not in these exact words. It would have been interesting to see how the first amendment had been worded had Jefferson arrived back in the states 60 days earlier. Theocracy is theocracy, even if it does not specify a denomination.
Mason was a leader of those who pressed for the addition of explicit States rights & individual rights to the U.S. Constitution as a balance to the increased federal powers,so they didn't sign the document in part because it lacked such a statement. His efforts eventually succeeded in convincing the Federalists to add the first ten amendments of the Constitution. These are known as the Bill of Rights, based on the earlier Virginia Declaration of Rights, which Mason had drafted in 1776
@timpipe You said: "It would have been interesting to see how the first amendment had been worded had Jefferson arrived back in the states 60 days earlier."
An interesting thought an action that Jefferson DID take: What was he doing only 2 days after he wrote "separation of church and state" in that letter to the Baptists? He attended church inside the US Capitol building. Today his action would be called "un-constitutional" So would his funding of Christian missionaries and other things.
@romansten9 Accepting the contradictions of Jefferson, one only need read the Virginia Bill for Religious freedom; that will tell you exactly where he stood on the power of the church in government. Yes, he was a religious and spiritual man of incredible foresight, but that does in no way mean he desired a Christian nation, and that is what this argument is about, is it not? He removed the church from it's power in Virginia, and you believe he wanted a Christian nation? Absurd.
@romansten9 You continue to talk about Jefferson. Its very common for people to quote a small handful of founders statements. (in addition to this, you conveniently ignore Jefferson's pro-religious actions and statements)
It would be nice if you would address the HUGE number of others involved in the founding of the US, other than 3 or 4 of the same ones that everyone tries to quote all the time.
@romansten9 Yes, there was a lot of religiosity amongst the founders, and that's the whole point. It is not about Jaweh. They were not all Christians. Yes, "Christian Principles" were a part of the founding of this country, but so was Reason. Keeping a particular deity out of the governance of a country is Reasonable. The Middle East is a great example of why NOT to have a theocratic states, and a Christian Nation is by definition a theocracy. Whose church, yours or mine? Cathy or Proty?
@timpipe Yes, I agree that people quote Jefferson because he was on of the LEAST religious of the founders. Yet, much more religious than most in office today.
But the point is not about Jefferson. Its interesting that someone with your view can only quote a SMALL handful (especially 3 or 4 founders) & can't quote from the 150+ other founders? You're fighting a losing battle. The evidence is not on your side, not even close. Read the Congressional record, court records, etc, etc,etc.
@timpipe Your "nonsense" claim is a claim from ignorance. Someone like you should be outraged at the media and public school system, who have lied to you (and others) for DECADES! Do you have the humility to admit this? And read OLD books and find the truth? You are just repeating claims from the past 50 years. If you read old books and OFFICIAL documents for yourself you will see this. Why read someone else's opinion? Why not read from ALL OF THE FOUNDERS own words? Not just a small few.
As you all might clearly see that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Church, that the Government would not intrude on or in the Church affairs. Not intended vice-versa. Starts out by addressing the men respectful & formally.
To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
This very discussion shows the genius behind the idea of the separation of church and state. Maybe not all the founding fathers believed in it, but using quotes by Jefferson as examples of a "Christian Nation" is bearing false witness. If this was meant to be a "Christian Nation," which theology of which denomination of which church, Catholic or Protestant? Should I stone my neighbor to death for working on Saturday or Sunday? Is it wrong if I do not ask my fellow parishioners to help?
.... solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the.....
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies.....
• “It is apprehended that... (Muslims), pagans, etc, may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States.Those who are Muslim, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] 1st the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether..Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.:Governor Samuel Johnston 7/30/1788
@PhuQuangLe111 A Muslim nation ? Are you kidding me ? The way the USA is going in about 30 years more than 50 percent of the people wil be Atheist, Agnostics or rationalists, the way I like to call them, since we dont belive in imaginary things like God, or Demoms or Heaven and Hell, or Angels or talking snakes .
• “Moses lifting his wand and dividing the Red Sea” Franklin
• “The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.” Jefferson
July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Franklin, Jefferson and Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the U.S.A." Ben Franklin's proposal adapted the Biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night."
oh my, you realize lying is against your religion right?
do you know what Jefferson wanted on the opposite side of the seal? hengist and horsa, look them up.
the adams bit is just a total fabrication, his proposal was from an artist he commissioned who suggested something far more pagan. he even wrote to his wife about it.
the men were mostly devout christians, but they knew the dangers of making a religious government, so they made the US secular.
@pyr666 It's nice to see that there are those who actually think about this subject. Freedom of (or from) religion is something taken for granted in this country. Turkey got it pretty much right too: it is mostly a Muslim population with a secular government, and that's the way most of the people like it. They look at their neighboring Islamic countries and understand the great freedom that the separation of Church and State affords. A Christian US Government would be a step backwards.
@pyr666 What most of the "Christian Nation" folks cannot comprehend is that their particular church may not be in charge. What happens if it is not ones own denomination? I am sure a protestant would bristle at certain rules set down by a catholic (still a Christian), or even a Methodist to those set down by a Southern Baptist . Church/State separation is certainly the most sensible option, and truly thoughtful people of faith (or of none)understand this.
Jonathan Miller simply, tries to educate innocent people into his Atheist belief of America and want to destroy it's patriotism the best he can, by this video.
@LambLion777 I supose it is just as easy to deny the history of the United States as to deny Scientific facts. Wshington knew that the people would swallow about anything if it was wraped in Jesus. Of course it is more easy to govern with the Bible and God. You must understand that the founders knew full well the power of religion and used it to their benefit. It puzzles me that the masses are still willing to swallow the same bitter pills as long as they are coated in the "sweet" word of God
No, can you read? G. Washington was a devoted Christian. I believe Dr. Peter Lillback whom wrote this book, "Sacred Fire" knows Washington far better then anyone on earth, because he devoted 15 years of his life to study him. Your a fool not to believe it.
I know History you don't. The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
• At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
@LambLion777 sorry, but if you get your history from 'Professor' Dave Barton, which undoubtedly you do as this is one of his pet fabrications, you are misguided. Barton deliberately twists quotes or makes them up. He even admitted it and had to remove several from his books... yet his flock still follow blindly over the cliff. Toss the Wall Builders video tapes out the window and get a real education.
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my Country, when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” Thomas Jefferson
@LambLion777 lol, well, lamblion...I guess the real "crazy person" decided he had enough! Maybe, maybe not...but thank you for all the bits of info re: our history. It's always a joy to search it out, (which apparently he doesn't do) and study it . I truly wish the Biblical precepts we were founded upon weren't being torn away, but we clearly needed to almost hit bottom before so many woke up this past 2 years and are shouting enough is enough! God Bless you
The notion (lie) that Washington was not a devout Anglican is absurd. "To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our our HIGHEST GLORY to add the the more distinguished character of a Christian." -George Washington. So the people who claim our first President (selected by all the other founders to be the first President) was a great man are also saying he was a liar who publicly said words he did not mean. Hog wash. Our country in rooted in Christian moral values. Get over it.
pablocoon 2 weeks ago
The early Christian didn't want church/state together, nor Mennonites. Young men: wage PEACE! Learn The Truth: "Love your enemies" -Jesus. + Verses: Matthew 5:39, Luke 22:49-51, Colossians 3:15, Rom.12:20. The church in its earliest days was unanimously pacifist (choosing non-violent resistance/God's will instead of military participation). Jesus taught a "third way," as used by Dr. King or Gandhi successful in situations unbeatable by violence. Check out "Shane Claiborne + Pacifism" on Ytube.
Norseman870 2 months ago
Muuuhahahaha! Being around Halloween is a good time watch this. And, as silly and unreal as all those costumed kiddos are, so this is the video. A grizzled old man with a British accent and a scary-looking, shadowy man quoting out-of-context Founders quotes while glaring down at a camera doth not make fact. There is no question that America was founded on Christianity.
"The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity." -John Adams
aThinkingChristian 3 months ago
@aThinkingChristian hahahaahah. You just did the same thing. Prove to me with empirical evidence the America is founded on Christianity. Go ahead.
Kimjira1 3 months ago
@Kimjira1 Well, first of all I wasn't trying to make a defense. I was simply pointing out the error of the documentary and how gullible people are to simply believe unfounded statements.
Now, before I answer your challenge, I'll ask you two questions. 1.) Are you really seeking to have it proven to you, or is your mind already made up? 2.) WHAT would you expect to see by way of evidence if America was founded on Christianity?
aThinkingChristian 3 months ago
@Kimjira1 Also, since you didn't refute what I originally said, it's nice to see that you agree that the documentary lacked real proof of its claims. Everyone is entitled to their own OPINION (which is what was expressed in this documentary), but no one is entitled his own FACTS.
aThinkingChristian 3 months ago
@01parrote.
I dont know who this Jahoshua is, Is he some name the jews came up with so they could call themselves messianic jews and continue to follow the babylonian talmud?
I dont know if you are a jew or a deceived christian, but the bible says the name of the savior is Jesus. Only the jews change his name so as not to be associated with the name christian.
glipzik 3 months ago
I challenge everyone to read all those quotes in their context. They are being taken out of context in this video to mean something different than the context shows. Look it up!
johnoliverclark 5 months ago
@johnoliverclark It's true that the Adams quote is two separate quotes made years apart & made to seem like one very different meaning quote & should not have been included here. However, the assertion by Miller that these Presidents were not "devout Christians" & wanted the Church & State to be kept separate is correct, regardless of the context of their quotes. There are dozens of Jefferson quotes concerning religion that no modern day President would dare agree with.
satanidomini 1 month ago
Is AMerica a christian nation? I answer his as a christian: NO IT IS NOT,as there is no such thihg as a christian nation. when Jesus said "strait (ie small) is the gate and narrow the way and few there are who find it" he meant it. and how few were they to find it? too few to start a nation. besides when church and state get into bed with each other both are corrupted. the Religiuos Right sin against God when they try to deny this
Strefanasha 6 months ago
Samuel adams, john witherspoon, richard lee, john jai, patrick henry, benjamin rush, etc etc, ¿are not christians?.....
luterano1517 6 months ago
@luterano1517 You are naming the few founding fathers that attempted to impose religious laws onto our nation. They were outnumbered by deists, atheists, and christians that actually wanted secularism (the majority of christians understood secularism was a good thing, unlike the ones of today)
Pooternackle5 6 months ago
Mr. Miller is wrong,
The Declaration of Independence makes no reference to the separation of church and state. That "separation of church and state" concept (the original meaning not the modern meaning) was not applied until the Constitution is 1787.
bRizzle2009100 7 months ago
@bRizzle2009100 He never said that it was in the declaration. He said it was enshrined in the law (which was the constitution)
Pooternackle5 6 months ago
@Pooternackle5 He said when we declared our independence in 1776 we enshrined into law that the church and state should be completely separate. The Bill of Rights didn't come about until 1791. Plus to say that we "enshrined into law that the church and state should be COMPLETELY separate" isn't necessarily incorrect if u take the original meaning of "separation of church and state" not the modern version that was invented in 1947.
bRizzle2009100 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Harold Camping was RIGHT about May 21, click on my channel to see...
youneekk 7 months ago
American nation of the sun ..the religious Christian nation about to join the Greek and the Roman empires. Satan is the architect of religions. My Savior is YAHOSHUA send by YHWH MY CREATOR MY FATHER
01perrote 9 months ago
@01perrote stop smoking crack.
SmallFries01 7 months ago
Haha, i love that Theoden from LOTR is laying the smackdowns here.
FOR ROHAN!!!!!!!!!1
jfrogg007 10 months ago
THOMAS JEFFERSON TO DOCTOR RUSH, Sept 23, 1800
Their hostility is on too interesting ground to be softened. The delusion into which the X. Y. Z. plot showed it possible to push the people; the successful experiment made under the prevalence of that delusion on the clause of the constitution, which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity
jfsfrnd 11 months ago
through the United States; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own, but especially the Episcopalians and Congregationalists. The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, and they believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn, upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.
jfsfrnd 11 months ago
People need to forget the bullshit history you learned in school. Washington and many other of our country were FreeMasons and members of the Illuminati. They believe in the light giver or Lucifer. Look at the Statue of Liberty and find out what she actually stand for. Please research it before calling me hateful names. The founding fathers were setting up a plan for the New World Order from the start. We have alway been under British Rule and we are slaves.
amyalewine 1 year ago
wow I had no idea the founding father's KICKED SO MUCH ASS
tienen23 1 year ago 14
@tienen23 Indeed they did. America has inherited a great legacy of intellectualism, all the more tragic that today's politicians are anything but.
CommanderC4 1 year ago
@tienen23 haha They did. I can't stand to hear morons call themselves "patriotic" because they wave a flag around and go to church. If George Washington would have heard this Christian Fundamentalist bullshit, he seriously would have jumped up out of his seat and exclaimed "GTFO!". True- a lot of the forefathers believed in the Christian "God" but they didn't support religion; they supported the basic principles that Jesus supposedly stood for (compassion, generosity, welfare, peace, etc.).
murderaddiction 1 year ago
@murderaddiction
Fortunately for George, he died at least 30 years before the evangelical/fundamentalist movement began in the US. He was already annoyed with the conservative clergy trying to get Jesus written into the constitution, so I don't think a bunch of radical wackos coming to his front door to try to "save" him would've gone over too well.
logik316 9 months ago
@tienen23 yea thats cuz republicans quote mine and change what they really felt
ILoveTrannys89 9 months ago
What happens next if the argument ends, and everyone universally admits "we are a Christian Nation" or it's stamped into our Constitution. What happens next? What are the practical policy considerations? Are non-Christians to no longer have a voice or a vote? The commandments in the Bible are turned into law? What is supposed to happen as a result of us being "a Christian Nation". I think we get so caught up in arguing over whether we are or not, we never ask the "what if".
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@DandAinTac while the first four are not law, the last six are very much part of our law.
usam1981 1 year ago
@usam1981 #6 Killing--okay, but this is in the laws of every nation, including non-Christian ones, and for good reason #7 adultery--not in Federal law, and not enforced in states that have it. Sorry--I don't buy that one. #8 steal--agree, see #6. #9 Lying--except under oath--the law does not forbid you to lie, and again see #6. #10 Coveting--I don't buy that one either. Americans covet left and right--capitalism depends on it.
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@DandAinTac Just to quickly point out... #9 is sometimes more accurately translated as "thou shall not bear false witness" which implies that it is a prohibition against perjury. There is even one story in the bible that illustrates this, but it has been years since i read that section I am having trouble remembering it. Something about two authority figures (priests or something) try to blackmail a young virgin into sleeping with them by testifying that she killed someone important... o well.
Kimjira1 3 months ago
@Kimjira1 I guess it's how you translate or interpret. Most Christians I've spoken to treat it as a general prohibition against lying.
DandAinTac 3 months ago
@usam1981 #6 Killing--okay, but this is in the laws of every nation, including non-Christian ones, and for good reason #7 adultery--not in Federal law, and not enforced in states that have it. Sorry--I don't buy that one. #8 steal--agree, see #6. #9 Lying--except under oath--the law does not forbid you to lie, and again see #6. #10 Coveting--I don't buy that one either. Americans covet left and right--capitalism depends on it.
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@usam1981 Our laws are based on the US Constitution, not the Bible, and the consent of the governed. If you want to believe the Ten Commandments are the law--then make them your law--believe me--neither I nor anyone else will try to stop you, but don't try to make them my law too.
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@DandAinTac YEah They are moral law, if the last six are not your moral laws, you have some serious problems.
usam1981 1 year ago
I want someone who believes in the mantra that "we are a Christian Nation" to tell me what this means. In other words--let's suppose we are, and let's suppose the argument is over. What's supposed to happen at that point? What do you see as flowing from that notion? Are Christian churches supposed to be favored? Given tax money? Only Christians can hold office or vote? Legislation must pass Biblical scrutiny? What is supposed to happen as a result of us being a "Christian Nation"?
DandAinTac 1 year ago
HOLY SHIT ITS KING THEODEN!
farizzal 1 year ago
Dishonesty works for no one.
ToxicOdiousOne 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"In God We Trust" on money was added during the civil war for political reasons.
The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. -- The Treaty of Tripoli
Question with boldness even the existence of a god- -Thomas Jefferson
I have found Christian dogma unintelligible.--Benjamin Franklin
Religious controversies are always productive of more ... hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.--George Washington
bigrobdeezey 1 year ago
We are no longer a Christian nation we are a socialist nation now. It never works look at our economic collapse. The housing market. Can't sell houses anymore. No moral foundation in America means everybody is a dishonesty criminal. That negative equality weakens us. All equally poor.
ToxicOdiousOne 1 year ago
@ToxicOdiousOne it works for china
TheHumanUnity 1 year ago
@ToxicOdiousOne Um we are definitely not socialist. The economic crises of the last few years are easily attributed to scarcely regulated capitalism. I am by no means anti-capitalist but you have to at least acknowledge that it happened because of a lack of regulation. Respecting a person's right to live, speak and worship freely, and fair trials is actually quite moral. If everybody is a dishonest criminal that means you too right?
Kimjira1 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
US liberty is grated first by a creator at birth and only recognized and upheld by the US constitution as a birth-right as such. Why, because if mere men or documents alone granted you liberty only a mere man or document can take it away! This is the distinction from American Liberty & why all men are created equal, evolution surly does not teach this but Christianity does. The basic notion of American liberty & freedom for all is by a God-given birth-right & a non-secular view historically.
WILLTHEWGMAN 1 year ago
That John Adams quote in the video is a misquote.
THOMASWML3 1 year ago
On January 20, 2009, President Barack Obama took the oath of office on the same Bible upon which Abraham Lincoln swore his oath on March 4, 1861.
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9 Abraham Lincoln, the man who didn't believe in christianity as we know it today.
rrpauldoran 1 year ago
@rrpauldoran I didn't make a single claim about Abraham Lincoln's faith.
However, someone could say that I was pointing out that our government decides to use the Bible for the oath of office.
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9 Actually, a president has the right to not only swear on something other than the bible but they can refuse to swear at all. They "affirm" instead. It is considered equally valid, the difference is that this does not violate certain religious restrictions on swearing as well as allowing for those who are non-religious/atheist to take the oath without compromising their beliefs. I don't know how well I explained that... I haven't slept in a few days and just got done with a Calc exam.
Kimjira1 3 months ago
While there was then, as now, diversity of religious belief amongst the founders, it's quite clear that the key founders, in their private letters and journals, were deeply skeptical of religion. Although one can find many allusions to God and "the almighty" in their public addresses--that was common political fodder then, as now. These men clearly meant to found a secular government and nation.
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@DandAinTac Preach it Brother (or Sister)! Those who live under a theocracy (and make no mistake, a Christian Nation would be just that) understand better than we the value of a secular state. People quote Jefferson's references to 'God' constantly, but fail to acknowledge that he edited the entire Old Testament, Revelation, and miracles from his own Bible. Maybe not all the founders wanted separation; just the smartest ones.
timpipe 1 year ago 3
@DandAinTac I don't know what private letters you have been reading, they must be from the founding fathers of russia. There are TONS of references to their faith in their letters and journals. Many of our founding fathers had cemenary degrees, and the entire Decleration of independance was taken from sermons of that day from major preachers. Someone asked Washington who the most important people in america were in his day, and he names preachers. Get used to it.
usam1981 1 year ago
@usam1981 So what if many of them were Christians? They were all male also--does that make this a male nation? They were all white--are we a white nation? You may WANT our nation to be a theocracy, but it's quite clear the founders' intent was a SECULAR nation. Get used to it.
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@DandAinTac An Anyone who sayw we want this country to be theocracy knows nothing about what we want. A theocracy is where there is no government but God. We don't want that. All we want is freedom of religion that is slowly beeing taken away from us. That is what the founding Fathers did not want. This concept of the founding fathers wanting a secular nation is new, and incorrect. Go back and read our founding fathers, and you will see what I mean.
usam1981 1 year ago
@usam1981 Hey, then we agree. I want "freedom of religion", but that also necessarily includes "freedom from" if that's what I want. That's why the government must be strictly neutral toward religion--only then will freedom reign. I have not seen any restriction at all toward's the practice of religion, just resistance at the influence of government and religion upon each other. Please tell me how your freedom to practice is restricted.
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@usam1981 I honestly am hoping for a reply to my questions. Maybe we might even find common ground. I'd like to know what you mean when you say "we are a Christian Nation," and what if the debate were over, and you won, and it is then stamped into the Constitution: "We are a Christian Nation". What is supposed to happen because of that? Also, how is your right to practice your religion being infringed?
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@DandAinTac sorry, I was unable to get on yesterday, anyways, it is already stamped into our constitution, maybe not the exact words, but our laws are based off of christian beliefs. Also, our freedom to practice religion is constantly being infringed upon. The government it constantly forcing people to act acording to what it believes. They allow no prayer in schools, force people to take down copies of the 10 commandments, and many other instances.
usam1981 1 year ago
Comment removed
Blastfimus777 1 year ago
@usam1981 The laws? Where do you get your history? Our laws are inspired by Greek and Roman rule, haha. And how is the "practice of religion" constantly infringed upon? Like the mosque being built around ground zero? And you say the "Government forcing people to act according to beliefs," like you don't want to force people to act accordingly to yours? and who makes up this government anyhow? THE PEOPLE DO. So the solution is is clear, there should never be incentive structure at the top...
Blastfimus777 1 year ago
@Blastfimus777 LOL, you are an idiot. If you believe that, then you know nothing about the greeks or romans. Our laws are biblical laws. Also, we do not force our beliefs on other people, unlike what you are trying to do with your posts. Moral people already act according to christian laws, even if they don't know they are doing it. Also, if you believe that the current government is run by the people then you are sadly maken. It is an unfortunate fact that the current governemt ignores us
usam1981 1 year ago
@usam1981 Who is it run by then? haha...here's what you don't say because you don't have an answer. And where do you think the structure of our government comes from? (the house, the senate) how isn't this Roman? If you have so much more knowledge than me, well why don't you tell me who runs the US. And btw your not a moral person I can tell this from you comments. Most Christians do the moral talk and then stuff their faces with sin.
Blastfimus777 1 year ago
@Blastfimus777 One, democracy comes from the church, not from greek and Roman, The church was the first to VOTE for anyone to be in power, while greeks and romalns both had Practical Dictators in power, also, the house and senate are new, and nothing like what they had in either of those ages, believe me, I am VERY familiar with Greeks and Romans. Also, The current government runs itself, against the will of the american people, unfortunatly. They don't care about us.
usam1981 1 year ago
@usam1981 Democracy came from what church? lmao. this is funny...I do agree with you about them not giving a shit. And the senate is older than Christ. I don't understand you...it's like you just make this stuff up and call it history, but I know better because I'm a Roman history buff. I don't know what to say, other than you just want to be right!? If you want the facts about the history of our government and it's foundations, you first must desire to know...
but you telling me this shit is...
Blastfimus777 1 year ago
@usam1981 I detest you calling me an idiot for the FACT that western civilization is influenced by the Greeks and Romans. Children know this stuff, and this is all new to you? How old are you? I'm guessing 15.
Blastfimus777 1 year ago
@Blastfimus777 I call it like I see it, and if you want to proove me wrong, please, don't spout propoganda to me, I have heard it all before. When you say something intelligent about christians, I will stop thinking of you as an idiot. Yes, some of our country was influenced by the Greeks and Romans, but much of it was influenced by christians. I am older than you that I can tell you.
usam1981 1 year ago
@usam1981 Propoganda? This is just sad folks. This man's history is based on his imagination. He thinks that democracy is a new idea and is not Greek in any form, but as he states, it's a new Christian idea and structure. And yet I'm the idiot I guess. Now he retracts his position and says "it was influenced by the Greeks/Romans."
This is so bad, I mean...I could lie about anything and everything to shortcut my thinking. This is what this man essentially does. His life is a lie.
Blastfimus777 1 year ago
@usam1981So, you believe the government should force teachers to make my children pray to your god in our public schools? Is that what's supposed to happen if we are a "Christian Nation?" I'm afraid I disagree with you then when you say it's not a theocracy. That's a key characteristic of a theocracy--enforcement of a particular religion upon everyone--with or without their consent. How is your freedom to practice being infringed?
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@DandAinTac I love it when you take me out of context, no I don't want teachers to force children to pray, I want them to stop treating kids who pray to God like criminals. We don't force our ideas on others, but the current government is constantly. We don't want a theocracy. Get that into your mind. If you actually knew anytnig about christians, you would know that. It is impossible to force people to become christians.
usam1981 1 year ago
@usam1981 Please give me an example of a teacher treating a kid like a criminal for praying on their own time in school. I never saw this when I was in school. But I understand how you feel. Search for "the price of atheism" on YouTube. A girl was persecuted by the school for being atheist. This works both ways. Legally, no one can stop your kid from praying during recess or lunch. So--is this what you mean by a "Christian Nation"--just that you are allowed to practice your religion?
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@DandAinTac Either you are older than you seem, or you are blind. It happens all the time in Public schools. A number of schools have BANNED praying in their schools, unless they have a prayer mat and pray towards the east, then the schools have no problem letting them pray. If you are a christian, you are treated like trash. You want proof, they wanted to remove Under God from the pledge of allegance for one.
usam1981 1 year ago
@usam1981 I just spent some time Googling on the Internet and I can't find any documented cases of any schools having a ban on prayer. My daughter just graduated from high school, and she can't remember ever once seeing a single example of anyone being persecuted or prevented from praying, and ditto for three other older stepdaughters, and my wife and I. The law is already on your side. If your child wants to pray quietly to themselves or in a nondisruptive way, the school cannot stop them.
DandAinTac 1 year ago
So if someone is stopping your child from praying, I encourage you to sue the school, and the ACLU might even take your case as long as they weren't trying to get the other kids to pray with them. Furthermore, even as an atheist, I would totally side with you on this issue. The times when it becomes a problem is if they want to get up in front of class and say--"Let us all pray". THEN, I would have an issue with that.
Okay, when you say "they wanted to remove Under God"--who's "they"?
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@DandAinTac The they are Most of the Democrat Congress, the Democrats in Senate, half of the members of the Supreme court, and Many more, so don't be such an idiot.
usam1981 1 year ago
@usam1981 Again, I can find no evidence of this. Please tell me where I can find a link--you'll have to describe it without actually pasting it. I searched for "Did Democrats try to take "under God" out of the pledge?" and I can't find it. I'm pretty sure no national-level Democrat has made any attempt to do this. There might be a few state level Dems sprinkled around who might have advocated this--but that's as far as it has gone.
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@usam1981 You know, I think you might be thinking of Michael Newdow, an atheist who filed suit to have "under God" taken out of the pledge. Even though I agree that "under God" should not have been added in the 50s, I think this is relatively trivial and symbolic. So let's go back to the original question. What does it mean for us to be a "Christian Nation"? Just that you are allowed to practice your religion? Are others equally free to practice whatever religion they want or none at all?
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@DandAinTac @DandAinTac @DandAinTac Then you did not look hard enough, I searched it, and found more than a dozen links to it, prayer has been banned in school sinse 1962, right about the time that this myth about the founding fathers started. I tried to list a few adds, but I kept on getting errors from youtube, oddly enough, Oh, also, are you nuts, the ACLU would never back up a christian EVER, they hate christians, always have, always will.
usam1981 1 year ago
@usam1981 What you are referring to is Engel v. Vitale. The was a Supreme Court decision that ruled that schools may not have children pray. Students can still pray on their own, but public schools cannot lead, compose, or endorse any prayer. You are wrong about the ACLU. They have backed the rights of religious people who were denied their rights many times. Google "ACLU defense of religious practice and expression." You got errors from YouTube because they won't let anyone paste links.
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@DandAinTac Yeah, religious rights of anyone BUT CHRISTIANS. If you are a muslem, they will back you up, if you are hindu, they will back you up, but if you are a christian, they treat you like dirt. Oh, and is that so, do you know they tried to ban see you at the flag, a yearly christian prayer session. I bet you did not know that.
usam1981 1 year ago
@usam1981 I know this is widely believed, and has become a mantra of sorts, but I have not yet seen evidence for this. Please provide evidence that Christians are not allowed to pray. I'm not talking about school sponsored prayer, or prayer pushed on captive audiences--I'm talking about a single school anywhere in the country where Christians are not allowed to pray on their own time.
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@usam1981 Also, is this what you mean by a "Christian Nation"--just that you are allowed to practice Christianity? Do you believe other religions should have equal treatment? Or no religions? Do you believe the government should be neutral with regards to religion, or should Christianity be privileged? Do you agree with the right of me and my family to not have to pray or be coerced by the majority to do so?
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@DandAinTac You have not been reading my posts very well if you have to ask those questions, that I have already answered. Please stop wasting my time with your useless drivel. I am not going to repeat myself. I have answered your questions, but if you ignore my answers, just like you ignore reality about christians, you will never get your answers, because you refuse to listen. Quit being so closed minded.
usam1981 1 year ago
@usam1981 Yes, I have read your posts, and no, my questions have not been answered. I don't think you can answer them, so good day to you.
DandAinTac 1 year ago
@usam1981 the reason that the United States was able to rebound from civil war to one of the worlds major super powers is because of speration of church and state...heres an idea that has probably not crossed your mind, you don't know whats out there and neither do I...so why don't you become more understanding of other religions I believe you have every right to be a christian...so you should understand that I have every right not to be
jrb1208 1 year ago
Every school student in the 1800's knew how intensely religious our founding fathers were. They knew the role that Christianity played in the founding of the US. They were taught the Bible in schools. They were taught the truth about the founding of the US. In the 1900's, the courts began ruling that textbooks couldn't include God anymore, so many things began to be deleted. We've been taught lies, and many of us don't even know it. Thankfully, the original books & documents show us the truth.
romansten9 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"Here is a list, of our US Founding Fathers faiths. Religious Affiliation in a 100% scale for you. Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7% Presbyterian 30 18.6% Congregationalist 27 16.8% Quaker 7 4.3% Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7% Lutheran 5 3.1% Catholic 3 1.9% Huguenot 3 1.9% Unitarian 3 1.9% Methodist 2 1.2% Calvinist 1 0.6% TOTAL 204 All Christian of their faiths, only 3 of them were not Church Members. Not random attendees. So, now what? "
LambLion777 1 year ago
"We have been assured, in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this; and that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel. I therefore beg to move that henceforth, prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven and its blessings be held in this assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that clergy of the city be requested to officiate." B Franklin
romansten9 1 year ago
On July 4th, 1776, Congress appointed B. Franklin, T. Jefferson and J. Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night..." Franklin and Jefferson were among the most theologically liberal of the Founders, yet they used biblical imagery for this important task.
romansten9 1 year ago
Jefferson praised the use of a local courthouse as a meeting place for Christian services;
Jefferson assured a Christian religious school that it would receive “the patronage of the government”;
Jefferson proposed that the Great Seal of the United States depict a story from the Bible and include the word “God” in its motto.
romansten9 1 year ago
The "wall of separation between church and State" is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned." Justice William Rehnquist
romansten9 1 year ago
Comment removed
romansten9 1 year ago
Jefferson WAS NOT considered chief proponent of the Bill of Rights! They sent him for a reason. You Sir are a liar! George Mason IV (December 11, 1725 – October 7, 1792) was an American patriot, statesman, and delegate from Virginia to the U.S. Constitutional Convention. Along with James Madison, both are considered the "Fathers of the Bill of Rights." (Continued)
LambLion777 1 year ago
"Orator of the Revolution against British King."
Patrick Henry
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
LambLion777 1 year ago
DELAWARE CONSTITUTION:1776 Article XXII: Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust, before taking his seat, or entering upon the execution of his office, shall take the following oath: "I, ___________, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ... His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9
"no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."
united states constitution, article 6
pyr666 1 year ago
@pyr666 Do you know what "religious test" even means? And how does this apply to preventing a student from saying a silent prayer, or even possessing a Bible in school? Or for quoting one of our founding fathers in school. The founders spoke of God so often that they can hardly be quoted in school. Things that were ok for >150 years. Its funny that the founders would write a constitution that prevented them from doing what THEY did constantly. Thats what this issue is really about.
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9
you realize that's a completely different issue than the one i was addressing. try and stay on topic next time.
pyr666 1 year ago
@pyr666 Your topic was "religious tests" and I responded to it. If you were trying to hint at another topic, you should have said so. You also didn't answer any of my questions, so it appears that you are the one not staying on topic.
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9
you quoted the delaware constitution stating it required a religious test to hold office. US constitution takes precedent.
"preventing a student from saying a silent prayer, or even possessing a Bible in school" ignoring that no one has prevented such actions, they weren't even present in your original post at all.
pyr666 1 year ago
@pyr666 You said: "preventing a student from saying a silent prayer, or even possessing a Bible in school" ignoring that no one has prevented such actions"
Are you claiming that no one has prevented prayer and Bible reading in school? And to take it a step further, do you realize that students have been prevented from bowing their heads to say silent prayers and have been prevented from even carrying a Bible in school?
Saying prayers out loud and reading the Bible were ok for >150 years.
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9
"Are you claiming that no one has prevented prayer and Bible reading in school?" when a student does so of their own accord? no, that's never happened. the school can't initiate prayers, however, which is what cases like Lemon v. Kurtzman were about.
pyr666 1 year ago
@pyr666 The main point of all of this is the interpretation of the 1st amendment. Countless mixing of church and state happened for over 150 years. Why? Whats your answer to that?
My answer is that the 1st amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Where does it say "Congress shall not allow government and church to mix" It doesn't say ANYTHING LIKE THAT and the founders never wanted that much separation.
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9
"It doesn't say ANYTHING LIKE THAT and the founders never wanted that much separation."
well first of all the constitution explicitly prevents religious tests for public office, which is yet another separation.
secondly, you really don't read up on the founders, do you? they frequently wrote about the dangers of state and religion influencing one another. the "separation of church and state" line actually came from Jefferson during his presidency!
pyr666 1 year ago
@pyr666 You don't seem to even know when and where Jefferson said "separation" and what the context was. It wasn't even in his official duties. If it was so important, he would have said those words "on the record." He did not. Also, 2 days after he wrote those words, he attended church inside the US Capitol building. By today's interpretation, Jefferson violated his own "separation!" Absurd! He also did many other things that violated this "separation" myth!
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9
he was allaying the fears of some group that feared they would be persecuted when some other group of christians tried to establish their sect as the state religion.
jefferson is well known to be a hypocrite. case and point, he wrote that all men were created equal, he even wrote in his paper that he wanted to abolish slavery in the constitution, but had slaves...
pyr666 1 year ago
@pyr666 He had slaves because he couldn't get rid of them due to debt. It should also be noted that he treated his slaves with more respect than most slave owners, paying those who worked the hardest and actually employing some of them to be managers in a sense.
DimeLivesInUs 1 year ago
@DimeLivesInUs
he also had a habit of sleeping with them.
but that's besides the point. well treated slaves are still slaves. trying to justify something as deplorable as keeping slaves is just as deplorable and STILL hypocritical.
pyr666 1 year ago
@DimeLivesInUs
actually, if anything, that excuse makes what he did worse. it means he was trading the freedom of his countrymen, something he recognized them as (as opposed to how others may have seen it), for money.
wtf?
pyr666 1 year ago
@pyr666 It actually hasn't been proven that it was Thomas who slept with Sally, and that it was more likely to have been Thomas' brother. Thomas was in a bad position, because his creditors wouldn't let him just free his slaves, and he didn't want to sell them to someone who could have treated them poorly. I'm not saying his owning slaves was excusable, I'm just saying that there's a lot of misunderstandings about Jefferson's life.
DimeLivesInUs 1 year ago
@DimeLivesInUs Very few people know the history. It was an issue of debt.
Blastfimus777 1 year ago
@pyr666 Do you realize how different US history text books are if you examine a copy from the period: 1800-1947 and a copy from 1947 to now? In 1947, we began to hear about the "separation" idea, and it was decided that God needed to be deleted from the books and that church and state needed to be separated in increasing ways. (Yes, the founders believed in a small degree of separation) Now we are seeing huge amounts of separation, and the founder's own actions and words are being deleted.
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9 They never had an official text book they taught from during 1800-1947 and I own one of the older versions of history from 1900. But it wasn't the standard or there was never just one everyone used. The only history about God is from the Bible. The problem with the founding fathers, so to say is...they weren't the shining examples as you would want to believe. And the separation...it's just the bullshit fervor that run this country and the people who vote. The US isn't sacred.
Blastfimus777 1 year ago
@Blastfimus777 I agree. The US isn't sacred and the founders weren't perfect. You claim I said this, but I didn't. And I agree with you that there were various books used in schools. But it was common to study the Bible and not only that, but to use the Bible in English class to teach students to read. Students were taught that the founders had faith in God, and that this faith shaped the foundation of the US. Now (in the last 50-60+ years, this isn't taught anymore) Its being covered up.
romansten9 1 year ago
@pyr666 You said: "you quoted the Delaware constitution stating it required a religious test to hold office"
No, I did not. That is a lie. If you made a mistake, I can overlook that, but don't put words in my mouth again.
I quoted the Delaware Constitution WORD FOR WORD. I did not interpret it, or make any claims about what I thought it meant. You say that I did.
Go back and read what I posted. The entire post is in quotes. I didn't make a single comment about my post.
romansten9 1 year ago
“The Congress of the United States RECOMMENDS AND APPROVES THE HOLY BIBLE FOR USE IN ALL SCHOOLS.” 1782
romansten9 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The citizens and the US Government were INTENSELY devoted to the Christian faith for over 150 years! Not until 1947 did the idea of trying to "separate church and state" come about (as we know of it today) The 1st Amendment was a limitation of government to not "make a law" establishing one Christian denom. This has never happened. Government is allowed to have church in Congress, pray, read the Bible in school, have national days of prayer, etc. JUST AS THEY HAVE BEEN DOING FOR >150 YRS.
romansten9 1 year ago
“Our country was founded on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.” Patrick Henry
“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond; the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.” John Quincy Adams
romansten9 1 year ago
Pure nonsense. So you are saying that a man who eliminated the entire Old Testament from his own Bible and authored the Bill for Religious Freedom in Virginia, disestablishing the Anglican church as state religion as well as rejecting a proposal to recognize other denominations, would agree to a Christian theology intruding into the affairs of government? Ridiculous. Jefferson, who did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, was the last person who wanted a "Christian Nation."
timpipe 1 year ago
@tim| No. You are completely wrong. This is a Christian Nation from the beginning. Can you read? The entire reason why people today do NOT believe it was because they are too pampered and protected to know better. At that time they just got out of a Revolutionary War with a British king, who was getting direct advice from the Vatican. Jefferson struggled with his faith, so what? Only God knows if he was saved. This was and is a Christian Nation. We'll find out how Christian we are, in November.
LambLion777 1 year ago
@LambLion777 As if elections have anything to to with Christianity. Too pampered and protected to know better that what? That statement makes no sense at all. Just because many of the signers of the Constitution believed in some of the tenets of the Bible does not in any way mean they wanted a theocracy, and make no mistake, that's the implication. Whose church should run the country, yours or mine? Thank the creator that this is and always was has been a secular country.
timpipe 1 year ago
@timp: If you are from the U. S. only have a college education and never served your county, you know what I mean. Don't be stupid. The Founders just saw a war, that they were very involved in. Writing the Constitution at that time.The problem they mainly debated, was the power of the Vatican, over the Kings of Europe. The lack of freedom they had over their own souls to read and worship God, themselves. Many children don't read this. Debates over this was a main argument, at this time.
LambLion777 1 year ago
@LambLion777 Freedom to worship (whichever deity), and to hold office no matter what denomination. "No religious Test shall ever be required as qualification to any Office or Public Trust under the United States." US Constitution, Article VI. Show where it mentions "Jesus" or "Christ." Theology may be used as a guide to ones personal conduct, not public governance. Do we post the 10 Commandments and along with them the punishments for their violation? Stoning for working on Saturday anyone?
timpipe 1 year ago
@tim: You are right, Tim. But If you don't believe most of Founding Fathers of this Country were NOT Christian, then you're just plain ignorant and might be insane. Like I have stated, so many times before, people like you that write such blathering, about the USA. Can go live where they think they are more comfortable. Here is the thing, Elijah was right and you are wrong of the who is who of God. If I die at anytime, I proclaim, the God I serve is Christ Jesus and he was raised from the dead.
LambLion777 1 year ago
@LambLion777 Whether or not you, I, or the founding fathers are/were Christian is IRRELEVANT! A secular government is not an atheist government: It is based on reason rather than superstition or theology. I am the son of a Baptist minister who also believes in c/s separation. Would you want to go back to a time when you could not run for state office because you were of the wrong denomination? Even Turkey at 90% Muslim but is not an Islamic state: It is as secular as the US, Allah akbar.
timpipe 1 year ago
Some Europeans, like the creep. Who made this video, don't know or care in the why, of this Country is so free. People who run against the good laws of God, especially in a Country that no longer follows good laws of God, is in real trouble. They don't let you know, in Mid-evil days over there,they used to cut peoples limbs off and kill citizens without human rights. Controlling souls who could NOT read the BIBLE. Only allowing for the rich to prosper, controlling the Blessings of who reads it.
LambLion777 1 year ago
@LambLion777 Did you not listen to the *American* voices on this video - to the voices of your "founding fathers". There is a case to be made that the US is in so much trouble because it has adopted direction taken from certain interpretation of Christianity.
NuyBard 1 year ago
The reason this Country is free is only due to it's Christian Roots otherwise you have the Government Control you and those in it. Charles Carroll: signer of the Declaration of Independence
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on Nov. 4, 1800.]
LambLion777 1 year ago
@LambLion777 The term is Medieval (middle ages) and is derived from the Latin medius (middle) and aevum (ages) and has naught to do with Evil. Much of the violence you refer to was committed by the Church in accordance with the laws and doctrines of the Old Testament. This began to abate with the Renaissance and it's 'Humanism" and discovery of Arab science, mathematics and astronomy and rediscovery of Greek and Roman philosophy, eventually leading to the Age of Reason (and rise of Deism).
timpipe 1 year ago
No. It was Dark ages, because it was a time when people, were unable to read the Bible for themselves. Not free to worship God the way they wanted. Freedom derives from following moral righteousness & harmony in community with values & virtues of Gods' Truth, allowing HIS blessings. When the Church had control of scripture, it also had control over its' citizens & their own souls. Most was hidden from the public in scripture & written in Latin. History calls it the Medieval as a warning to US.
LambLion777 1 year ago
@History calls it Medieval because it is Latin for middle ages and was coined thus in the Renaissance. Though the latter period was famous as a reawakening, it was not a time of clairvoyance in which a great future power in the Americas was imagined and thus forewarned with the scary word "Medieval." There has also been a rethinking of the term "Dark Ages" as an equivalent to "Medieval" because there actually were a great number of achievements during this time.
timpipe 1 year ago
@timpipe Would you want to go back to a time when you could not run for state office because you were of the wrong denomination?
You hit the nail right on the head. The main point of the 1st Amendment is to ease the worry that the Congress would create a law establishing ONE Christian denomination/religion.
In Contrast, it DOES NOT say that the Bible is to be kicked out of schools, or prayer, or that 10 commandments can't be posted, or the pledge of allegiance removed, etc.
romansten9 1 year ago
The editor of the Constitution Gouverneur Morris and 1st Supreme Court Justice John Jay, use to argue this fact throughout their college days. Where they were best friends. Jay wanted a complete Protestant Nation,so mush so, he wanted to make laws against the Catholics, it educated men who knew those leaders, because our leaders here, were people, who were dealing with them, at this time. It is not, people who chose that sad way do make there own secularists.
LambLion777 1 year ago
@timpipe First of all, you are mis-representing Jefferson. But even if you were correct about him, do you realize he wasn't even in the country when the founders were forming the Constitution? The whole myth of "separation" is based on that letter Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist church, in which he was saying that government won't interfere with religious freedom and won't establish ONE Christian denomination. Thats the context. A NON OFFICIAL letter by a person out of the country.
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9 I have read plenty of Jefferson, and yes, he was out of the country, unfortunately, because he was the chief proponent of the Bill of Rights. And it was not just one damned letter! Many correspondences with his contemporaries mentioned this, though not in these exact words. It would have been interesting to see how the first amendment had been worded had Jefferson arrived back in the states 60 days earlier. Theocracy is theocracy, even if it does not specify a denomination.
timpipe 1 year ago
Mason was a leader of those who pressed for the addition of explicit States rights & individual rights to the U.S. Constitution as a balance to the increased federal powers,so they didn't sign the document in part because it lacked such a statement. His efforts eventually succeeded in convincing the Federalists to add the first ten amendments of the Constitution. These are known as the Bill of Rights, based on the earlier Virginia Declaration of Rights, which Mason had drafted in 1776
LambLion777 1 year ago
@timpipe You said: "It would have been interesting to see how the first amendment had been worded had Jefferson arrived back in the states 60 days earlier."
An interesting thought an action that Jefferson DID take: What was he doing only 2 days after he wrote "separation of church and state" in that letter to the Baptists? He attended church inside the US Capitol building. Today his action would be called "un-constitutional" So would his funding of Christian missionaries and other things.
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9 Accepting the contradictions of Jefferson, one only need read the Virginia Bill for Religious freedom; that will tell you exactly where he stood on the power of the church in government. Yes, he was a religious and spiritual man of incredible foresight, but that does in no way mean he desired a Christian nation, and that is what this argument is about, is it not? He removed the church from it's power in Virginia, and you believe he wanted a Christian nation? Absurd.
timpipe 1 year ago
@romansten9 You continue to talk about Jefferson. Its very common for people to quote a small handful of founders statements. (in addition to this, you conveniently ignore Jefferson's pro-religious actions and statements)
It would be nice if you would address the HUGE number of others involved in the founding of the US, other than 3 or 4 of the same ones that everyone tries to quote all the time.
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9 Yes, there was a lot of religiosity amongst the founders, and that's the whole point. It is not about Jaweh. They were not all Christians. Yes, "Christian Principles" were a part of the founding of this country, but so was Reason. Keeping a particular deity out of the governance of a country is Reasonable. The Middle East is a great example of why NOT to have a theocratic states, and a Christian Nation is by definition a theocracy. Whose church, yours or mine? Cathy or Proty?
timpipe 1 year ago
@timpipe Yes, I agree that people quote Jefferson because he was on of the LEAST religious of the founders. Yet, much more religious than most in office today.
But the point is not about Jefferson. Its interesting that someone with your view can only quote a SMALL handful (especially 3 or 4 founders) & can't quote from the 150+ other founders? You're fighting a losing battle. The evidence is not on your side, not even close. Read the Congressional record, court records, etc, etc,etc.
romansten9 3 months ago
@timpipe Your "nonsense" claim is a claim from ignorance. Someone like you should be outraged at the media and public school system, who have lied to you (and others) for DECADES! Do you have the humility to admit this? And read OLD books and find the truth? You are just repeating claims from the past 50 years. If you read old books and OFFICIAL documents for yourself you will see this. Why read someone else's opinion? Why not read from ALL OF THE FOUNDERS own words? Not just a small few.
romansten9 3 months ago
As you all might clearly see that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Church, that the Government would not intrude on or in the Church affairs. Not intended vice-versa. Starts out by addressing the men respectful & formally.
To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
LambLion777 1 year ago
supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.
LambLion777 1 year ago
This very discussion shows the genius behind the idea of the separation of church and state. Maybe not all the founding fathers believed in it, but using quotes by Jefferson as examples of a "Christian Nation" is bearing false witness. If this was meant to be a "Christian Nation," which theology of which denomination of which church, Catholic or Protestant? Should I stone my neighbor to death for working on Saturday or Sunday? Is it wrong if I do not ask my fellow parishioners to help?
timpipe 1 year ago
.... solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the.....
LambLion777 1 year ago
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies.....
LambLion777 1 year ago
America needs to be a Muslim Nation and swear out country into the law of god. the supreme god that is!
PhuQuangLe111 1 year ago
• “It is apprehended that... (Muslims), pagans, etc, may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States.Those who are Muslim, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] 1st the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether..Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.:Governor Samuel Johnston 7/30/1788
LambLion777 1 year ago
@PhuQuangLe111 A Muslim nation ? Are you kidding me ? The way the USA is going in about 30 years more than 50 percent of the people wil be Atheist, Agnostics or rationalists, the way I like to call them, since we dont belive in imaginary things like God, or Demoms or Heaven and Hell, or Angels or talking snakes .
edgarreyes14 1 year ago
• “Moses lifting his wand and dividing the Red Sea” Franklin
• “The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.” Jefferson
July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Franklin, Jefferson and Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the U.S.A." Ben Franklin's proposal adapted the Biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night."
LambLion777 1 year ago
@LambLion777
oh my, you realize lying is against your religion right?
do you know what Jefferson wanted on the opposite side of the seal? hengist and horsa, look them up.
the adams bit is just a total fabrication, his proposal was from an artist he commissioned who suggested something far more pagan. he even wrote to his wife about it.
the men were mostly devout christians, but they knew the dangers of making a religious government, so they made the US secular.
pyr666 1 year ago
@PathologicalliarinYourRemberance666: Popular proposal to the Great Seal of the United States was:
" Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"; with Pharoah's army drowning in the Red Sea."
LambLion777 1 year ago
@pyr666 It's nice to see that there are those who actually think about this subject. Freedom of (or from) religion is something taken for granted in this country. Turkey got it pretty much right too: it is mostly a Muslim population with a secular government, and that's the way most of the people like it. They look at their neighboring Islamic countries and understand the great freedom that the separation of Church and State affords. A Christian US Government would be a step backwards.
timpipe 1 year ago
@timpipe
its easy to overlook it because it's so basic. ex, everyone takes air for granted... until they start drowning <,<
pyr666 1 year ago
@pyr666 What most of the "Christian Nation" folks cannot comprehend is that their particular church may not be in charge. What happens if it is not ones own denomination? I am sure a protestant would bristle at certain rules set down by a catholic (still a Christian), or even a Methodist to those set down by a Southern Baptist . Church/State separation is certainly the most sensible option, and truly thoughtful people of faith (or of none)understand this.
timpipe 1 year ago
Jonathan Miller simply, tries to educate innocent people into his Atheist belief of America and want to destroy it's patriotism the best he can, by this video.
LambLion777 1 year ago
If only our so called leaders, teacher's, etc we're as intelligent, kind & level headed as Jonathan Miller
panicsum 1 year ago
This guy is still a liar.
LambLion777 1 year ago
I was told long ago that you never argue with a crazy person because if someone sees you you may be taken for crazy as well-good day Sir
josephklon 1 year ago
Comment removed
LambLion777 1 year ago
Comment removed
LambLion777 1 year ago
@LambLion777 I supose it is just as easy to deny the history of the United States as to deny Scientific facts. Wshington knew that the people would swallow about anything if it was wraped in Jesus. Of course it is more easy to govern with the Bible and God. You must understand that the founders knew full well the power of religion and used it to their benefit. It puzzles me that the masses are still willing to swallow the same bitter pills as long as they are coated in the "sweet" word of God
josephklon 1 year ago
No, can you read? G. Washington was a devoted Christian. I believe Dr. Peter Lillback whom wrote this book, "Sacred Fire" knows Washington far better then anyone on earth, because he devoted 15 years of his life to study him. Your a fool not to believe it.
LambLion777 1 year ago
I know History you don't. The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
• At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”
LambLion777 1 year ago
@LambLion777 sorry, but if you get your history from 'Professor' Dave Barton, which undoubtedly you do as this is one of his pet fabrications, you are misguided. Barton deliberately twists quotes or makes them up. He even admitted it and had to remove several from his books... yet his flock still follow blindly over the cliff. Toss the Wall Builders video tapes out the window and get a real education.
TheAteapotist 1 year ago
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my Country, when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” Thomas Jefferson
LambLion777 1 year ago
@LambLion777 lol, well, lamblion...I guess the real "crazy person" decided he had enough! Maybe, maybe not...but thank you for all the bits of info re: our history. It's always a joy to search it out, (which apparently he doesn't do) and study it . I truly wish the Biblical precepts we were founded upon weren't being torn away, but we clearly needed to almost hit bottom before so many woke up this past 2 years and are shouting enough is enough! God Bless you
houndzark 1 year ago