If Abraham teachings work, how in the world, Jerry attracted cancer and died? Is that what they deliberately created? They kept bragging about Jerry being in the vortex most of the time. It seems to me none of the processes worked out for them. I think they sell false hopes to people. I feel really bad about the whole thing
I think what they're saying here is don't get so hung up on applying the law of attraction. It's there like gravity whether or not you remember to apply it. In the first clip, they're saying we need to beware of law of attraction to work with it in order to deliberately create what we want. Once you know it's there, you just know! and stop thinking about applying it all the time because it's being applied every single time! Think positive
@winnika228 Thanks again for the comment. Are you sure you aren't making excuses up for them? These are two clearly conflicting statements. In one they say you apply it. In the next, they say you don't.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I agree! It's soothing to hear something expressed with great clarity, that you yourself could not find words to describe. I like Abraham from the standpoint of my soul coming into harmony with certain statements that heal various issues within me. We can debate, and intellectualize all we want, but once you're healed from a teaching, that's what it's all about. Many seek guidance, and teachings hit us all differently. Latch on to what's for you and keep moving forward.
Esther translates blocks of thought. Searches for words,language to convey concepts of broader information received when tuned in to "Abraham", a name for collective nonphysical intelligence. Many concepts were new to Esther, so as time passes, message has fine tuned. As in any subject we ever learn, each contact, interaction, use, will deepen and broaden. Actual concept may not vary, limits of language, knowledge, experience of the translator affects how an idea is conveyed and morphs.
@streaminglife Thanks for the comment. I'm aware of what Esther claims to be doing. It seems that this sort of logic could be used to defend any charlatan/fraud if a contradiction or error arises.
Again, you are comparing information that is from 20 years ago. Things change, the universe expands, we grow and evolve. Nothing stays stagnant and what was known 20 years ago is more fined tuned today. I don't believe in or the do the same things I did 20 years ago because I've evolved... same holds true for Source energy, God, whatever name you apply to it. Still not convinced.
@tamarahanson Thanks again for the comment. I think you are under some misapprehension. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I make this information available for those who are looking for it, as I once was. It's nice that you can provide them excuses when they err and contradict. However, you could use this same logic to defend any actual fraud/charlatan.
@kyraspeaks It's all about perception. Most definitely we could make excuses for anyone- even the Bible, God, Jesus, Mark, Paul, Ghandi. We have no real evidence to original meanings because any info has been bastardized throughout history. I think the best thing to do is take what feels right and leave the rest. PS: Anytime you plead a case about your opinion, you are trying to convince people...as I am doing right now. Thanks for your reply.
@tamarahanson I agree with regards to the Bible. The Abraham materials are a little different since we actually do have access to the original documents/recordings.
Minutes ago I was having a wonderful time watching abe videos. I saw 1 our 2 dislikes on many and was wondering who are these people. and then bam I found this... Ask and its given baby.
This is semantics. In the first clip they simply say that if WE live by those laws we understand what happens to us.Later in, they learnt from people that they understood those words differently and so Abraham is more precise. Abraham does change the wording all the time
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Can you offer some closing words? I think I, and anyone who reads this, gets where you are going with this. And they certainly should understand by now where I stand on this.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Words, words, words. None of this shows that you understand consciousness. It just means you've been well-versed in the art of talking in nonsense.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Anyone can claim some sort of esoteric understanding above others--doesn't mean they actually have it. Just means they can type.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I never said it. I said, "I don't believe whatever is proven through science is the only truth. But I believe that truth can be proven through science."
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL But you are just claiming to know. You don't. I wasn't claiming people don't experience things. I was saying that an experience can be easily misinterpreted and used to support wooey theories, which it is usually used to do. Just because you experience something, doesn't mean that you have understood what you are experiencing, which is why science is so important--not authoritative voices.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Again, I don't know how much more specific I can be about this. I applied the teachings. I "manifested," and experienced "healings," and gave "healings," and "read energy," and all that nonsense. That's why I know that there's nothing to it.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL But there is a reality outside of us. We can measure it. We can analyze it. We can study it. As for consciousness, it seems that people are just taking a subject that no one understands and claiming to have some enlightened wisdom about it that has no means of verification.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I agree that some things cannot be proven, but those would be things that aren't true or real. The mind is extremely powerful, but cannot do the things that the Abraham materials--and other materials like it--claim. I have tried it, so I'll assume the rest of your comment was just to a generic someone.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I'm explaining that he isn't taking it literally. He takes them as a metaphor. They aren't the same thing. I'm agreeing that he sees a truth behind them, but that truth is in a metaphor--not in the literal stories.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL (continued...) This might help. The Oxford English Dictionary defines literal as: "taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory."
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Literal and metaphorical are not the same thing. I agree he sees a deeper meaning to the myths that he sees as true, but that doesn't make it literal. Literal is taking the words at face value. He doesn't do that. He sees a truth behind them, but he does not consider the paranormal aspects to be authentic accounts. That's not taking them literally.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL If you love science so much, I can't understand why you are so against empirical proof and evidence. Personally, I'm not a fan of Campbell. I used to be, but he's talking about the usefulness of myths. He doesn't take the stories to be literally true. People take what Abraham says as if it were fact.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Well, there is also the fact of whether or not they are actually authentic--regardless of what people believe about them. I prefer the world of science, where they have to support their claims with evidence. It's a lot better than having to rely on authoritative voices and credulous personal experiences.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Perhaps if I can see the truth in a lie, then I will see the significance of the Abraham teachings, cause that's all I would be doing.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I won't stay away from it. It doesn't serve your cause to say you refuse to prove your ridiculous claims...it just makes them appear even more ridiculous.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Pulleeeassee....The burden of proof is always on the person making the claim. Period. It is senseless the other way because it isn't anyone's job to run around disproving all the nonsense that's out there.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL You're just talking...you aren't supplying any evidence..."personal experience" isn't evidence because of its tendency towards cognitive biases and misunderstandings. Again, the burden of proof is on you because you are making the claim that the universe works this way. If you (and all those like you) aren't willing to supply any, don't be surprised by the fact that I say this is all bogus--because you haven't shown it to be otherwise.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL In response to your comments: You are talking about all these things as if they are facts, and they aren't. You talk about "knowing" this stuff, and knowing implies evidence--not just experience. Experience does not tell us fact. People say they "know" that there is a Hell and a devil, but that doesn't make them real. If these things were real, we could assess them scientifically and verify them with evidence.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL My point is that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim to prove it. It isn't my job to disprove the claim. If you are going to make a claim that it exists, you have to substantiate it with evidence. I don't need evidence that this doesn't exist for the same reason I don't need evidence the dragon in Carl Sagan's garage doesn't exist.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Are you going to say they do exist because you can? Just because you see something, doesn't mean it's real (schizophrenics, alien abductions, satanic ritual abuse come to mind).
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL ...but it's not true for other reasons besides my lack of belief in it--like the fact that there isn't any evidence that it is true.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL No, their teachings are telling people lies about the nature of reality. You can believe you will heal yourself of a terminal illness because of these teachings--doesn't mean that's going to happen. You can believe there is a metaphysical law that will assist you--doesn't mean it exists.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL To sum up my response to all your comments: I get that you feel that way, but it doesn't add any validity to the teachings. Any fraud could use--and have used--this sort of logic to dupe people into buying their shtick.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I'm not saying there isn't something to it. I'm just disagreeing about what that something is. I would say success reaped from LOA is a product of cognitive biases, the placebo effect, and misunderstandings about the law of very large numbers.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I have volumes of sincere-sounding testimonials, but there are too many factors that contribute to erroneous testimonials to be able to trust their validity.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I'm glad to hear you've found that peace. I'm going to be heading out for the night, but feel free to keep going, and I'll make sure to respond later.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I don't deny a mind/body connection (placebo/nocebo effect, stress, etc). I deny the way New Agers take it to unproven, absurd extremes. It is limited and we don't see placebos getting rid of things like AIDs or Parkinson's. And there is not sufficient evidence to support your claim about "your chances of overcoming it are better if you accept it."
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL It's not valid if someone thinks they can cure themselves of an incurable illness and then they die trying because the process or technique never worked to begin with.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I'm not going to try and discredit you. I save that for the Hickses. But I will say that just because you can feel something doesn't mean it's vibrations. Just because I see a little fairy and it talks to me doesn't mean that I don't have a mental disorder [that's an example, not a fact ; )].
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Like I said, medical verification is what I'm talking about here. I have books full of unreliable healings of literally everything. Not a shred of evidence to show they actually happened.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Caroline Myss has a wonderful, unverified account of helping heal of man of HIV. No evidence. Lots of people claim this, but if it was happening as much as they would have people believe, we'd have the evidence to back it.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Very cool. Let me just reiterate that I'd be interested in something more than a testimonial. I've seen plenty of claims of such, but no proof to corroborate that it every actually happened.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Twisting quantum field into something spiritual or having to do with consciousness. Again, you say it's real, prove it. If you aren't going to, don't be surprised that I think you're talking nonsense.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL No, the people who make the claim have to prove it. Period. If someone can prove gravity and evolution to me, they should have no problem proving these other concepts (if they were actually true). Because if they were, there would be plenty of medically verified cases of Parkinson's being healed, AIDs dissapearing, etc because of people changing their thoughts. That isn't the case though.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Not so. The things that happened were all perfectly logical things that I twisted to make meaning of where there wasn't. The healings didn't happen, and that was shown when people wound up dead from the diseases they were trying to be cured of (even the one's who had previously claimed miraculous healings).
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Here is the quantum mysticism I was talking about. This is not what quantum physics is talking about. it's what New Agers try to twist it into.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL The burden of proof lies on the one making the claim that something is so. If you were to claim telekinesis was possible, it would be your job to prove it--not my job to disprove it.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL That's just the New Age perspective. Other religions would say that they exclusively hold the truth. So that really only works in New Ageland.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Experience is riddled with cognitive bias. Just because you have an experience doesn't mean it's valid. Period. I don't disagree with your statement about being born into different circumstances, though.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL You realize I have had supposed "experiences." I was a part of the Abraham teachings for many years and had many experiences that people would call amazing or miraculous. I used to work with healers and supposed mystics. Clearly, I was fairly unimpressed by it all.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL The truth is mystical, but I think we mean different things when we say that. Quantum mysticism is a set of unproven ideas that leech off of quantum physics, interjecting consciousness in places there is no reason to believe it is.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Cause New Age religions prey on that demographic the most. Because people don't understand it and are looking for answers and will turn to anyone who claims they have them. My point is, there is no evidence to show it can occur. It's not my job to prove that it can't. It's your job to prove that it can.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL You can believe whatever you want. You can believe that a magical dragon gives you telekinesis. Doesn't change the fact that you aren't actually going to move anything with your mind.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I know that there are no medically verified cases of that occurring despite many attempts to verify it. "Do you have AIDS? watch who you sleep around with. lol." Seriously? Did you actually just say that?
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Do you mean "deeply" or without critical thinking skills? It's easy to make up a mystery school--a little more difficult to prove something is actually true.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Meditation (and all the Abraham processes in the world) will not bring someone into perfect balance from AIDs. Show me evidence to the contrary, and I'll be impressed.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I don't know what you mean by this. I think people have lots of affect on their health by taking preventative measures, medication, etc.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Quantum physics isn't scary. Quantum mysticism is. Quantum physics is talking about the quantum world and doesn't apply to the macro world. The experiencer doesn't win when they believe they have "proof" they've been abducted by aliens, when they believe that there is a wrathful God who's going to punish them, when they believe that they've been raped by an Incubus. These are all things people have believed have been "proven" to them by their experience.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Direct experience...I believe you're talking about cognitive biases. Plenty of people have their "proof" of a vengeful God. Doesn't make it so.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I like my truth to be able to be proved to me. I don't take people's words for it and then rely on cognitive biases to support them.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL It seems that you are just making up excuses for her. I could make up excuses for any charlatan. It doesn't change the fact that their a charlatan with contradictions.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL No, quantum mysticism (not the same as quantum physics) scares the hell out of me because it is unfounded and a bunch of woo that people use to justify scary belief systems.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL They are part of a small piece of what Abraham is talking about. That doesn't speak to the validity of LOA. And thoughts are important. That doesn't mean that I agree that metaphysical laws respond to them.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL No, Jesus and Descartes weren't talking about the Law of Attraction. People who follow these sorts of materials just like to attach great thinkers to their philosophies.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL We can see the world through our own perception, but it doesn't change the facts. Again, I'd be interested in your take on the "Abraham Hicks' Memory Lapse" video.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL This doesn't change the fact that the two statements are opposed to one another. You can dig for a deeper meaning to "make" them work, but I don't have to do that to show that they are contradictory.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL There are plenty of people who claim they were abducted by aliens. Doesn't mean it's true. I'd be interested to see your take of "Abraham Hicks' Memory Lapse" and let me know where my "misunderstanding" lies.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL The first one says you do have to apply it in order to be able to utilize the other laws. The second one says you don't. As in, you don't apply it. It doesn't need to be applied.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL No, it doesn't mean that. She says you have to apply LOA in order to be able to utilize the other laws. And in the next she says you don't apply it.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL A) These statements don't have to do with LOA (expect that people can claim anyone is talking about LOA when they say anything). B) Even if they did have something to do with LOA, why would I think that because Jesus or Descartes said it, it had more credibility?
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Yes, I understand that. That doesn't change the fact that in one recording they say you have to apply LOA and in another recording they say you don't apply it. Those statements are contradictory.
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Regardless of what you think it means, the two statements are clearly in opposition of one another. Either you apply it or you don't. In one, they say you do. In another, they say you don't. Period.
I think the general point of abraham's teachings are based on the knowledge that you have the answers within you anyway.... even if there is a seeming contradiction, you have the ability to find the truth that clicks for you in a positive and meaningful way
@maverick05716 At the same time, Abraham presents a myriad of ideas that are only verified by their own authority. No one can validate the authenticity of what they say about the nonphysical or reincarnation, meaning it is likely as true as the other ideologies about afterlife that have been presented by self-professed translators (ie Heaven/Hell, the Underworld,etc). And there is no way of evaluating these any of these claims (from Abraham or from some inner intuition).
@kyraspeaks I've listened to many different teachers, etc. who have said wonderful things that have made me feel good, but that alone doesn't make me "subscribe" to what they're offering. I have my weaknesses, but believe me, being a sucker for charlatans is definately NOT one of them! I have really good instincts, & I know i can trust them. But tho I love Abe, I have never, nor will ever suggest them to anyone, b/c like everything else in this world, i know it's not for everyone.
@salamandastronable I understand all your points, and I respect you even though we disagree. I don't believe ANYONE is not a sucker for charlatans. And I mean that because historically and presently there are many very smart people who are taken in by clear phonies. This is why I have a hard time believing that you, or anyone else, could discern the real thing from a fraud.
@salamandastronable I also want to add that I am not trying to convert you or any other Abe follower here. I'm putting this information out for those who are looking for it, as I once was. I'm not offended by you believing in this or anything else.
@kyraspeaks Just read your reply -- I see your point, and I respect it. I think we could just go back & forth forever, in two parellel lines of thought, & both will always be valid, but we will never agree, b/c we are coming from very different places...we will have to agree to disagree! Agreeing will never be the "goal" -- nothing wrong with disagreeing with each other, b/c I think it's healthy to challenge each other on these things, to a point.
@salamandastronable I agree that it is healthy for us to challenge each other. And I'm actually very glad that you aren't just willing to take my word for any of this. My only wish is maybe that you would be slightly more skeptical of Abraham. But if it's making you happy, I can certainly understand why you are using these materials. I did not have the same experience within them.
@kyraspeaks I want to thank you for raising this important discussion. But I think it's tricky to debate it accurately on either side b/c, as I began in my previous comment, you can't approach this from a purely intellectual angle. To quote you, "I am taking them for their literal word." Thing is, in order to present a fair or accurate "debunking", you have to go deeper. I mean, ANYONE can debunk ANYONE if they only take them at their literal word!
@salamandastronable Having been someone who used and listened to Abe for years, I don't see any other way to look at it. In one they say you apply it. In another, they say it isn't something you apply. But, even if I gave you the benefit of the doubt (or Abe), this is not the only error I have found. Just check out my video about their memory lapse, where they actually mess up the names of Renegade/Snuggles and change the story.
I've been listening to Abe for quite a while now, & sometimes I wonder whether I'm being delusional, & I check myself. Every time, I arrive at this: the bottom line is feeling, not words. As Abe says, "words don't teach," & when ppl have these intellectual conundrums, they're looking at it with their heads & not their hearts. The VERY FIRST TIME i heard Abe, I got this incredible FEELING that I had never got before, & can't describe. So I keep myself in check ....& I keep listening :)
@salamandastronable But this is a conclusion that Abe has encouraged you to. I'm not necessarily saying it was created by them, but they are constantly encouraging this sort of emotional check. And any charlatan could use this sort of scheme to get a person to listen to them. They just have to say things that sound wonderful, person checks for good feeling, it's there--and voila! it validates the charlatan's words.
I see no contradiction. She's saying that if one doesn't apply the LA effectively, consciously, the deliberate creation and allowing cannot be. Then what happens is a non deliberate creation and a non permission for what is wanted to be attracted, as the LA attracts what has similar vibration. It would be a random creation. But this, to me, is not the most important thing. What matters the most to me is to be able to change my feeling to a better one when I don't feel good. It works! It's great!
@fernandatralala It's far more simple than that. In one, she says you can effectively apply Law of Attraction. In the other, she says that you don't apply Law of Attraction. Abraham can only have it one way. You can either apply LOA or you don't.
@kyraspeaks Yes, it's very simple and you are twisting it. She said that you don't need to do anything to LA happen. It will happen anyway. But you can effectively apply it... meaning that you can conduct it. Words are tricky and if you are determinated to find little things here and there to twist, you will have some pastime.
@fernandatralala I am not twisting anything by putting their conversations side by side and showing the obvious contradiction. You can creatively justify it all you want, but to say the statements, as they are said, do not contradict, is just not true. And I am not determined to find little things...Esther is just that sloppy.
So, are you implying that we are so brainwashed that we can't tell right from wrong? The fact that you compare what you've conducted to Esther shooting someone is ridiculous. Just because we have decided to follow Abraham's teachings regardless of what you've gathered does not mean we haven't made an informed decision. I am curious- if you disagree with Abraham's overall message, to be joyful and to follow your own personal guidance, then what do you believe? How do you live your life?
@XOalakanaXO Are you implying that Abraham's message includes an idea about right and wrong? From The Vortex: "Flawed Premise #13: There are right ways and wrong ways to live." From Los Angeles, CA 08/02/98: "The question is not whether it's right or wrong, whether their approach is right or wrong, or whether my approach is right or wrong. The question is: Does their approach feel good to me?" And I was not using my statement to compare anything. I used it to illustrate Aber-devotion.
@XOalakanaXO I do not consider emotional guidance (you referred to it as personal guidance, I believe) to be a form of critical thinking. I have no problem with joy, but I don't think anyone needs to listen to Abe to believe that. Also, there are several unpleasant messages within the teachings that are far worse than these. I live my life knowing it is precious and beautiful and that I should do my best to make it even better.
@kyraspeaks Well I am happy for you that you enjoy your life, and i'm not going to push against you. We all have the right to live the way we want to. You brought up a really good point about what Abraham said- there is no right or wrong way to live, because there is one thing we can always agree on- we all love to be happy! and you are right, we don't need to listen to Abraham to know that. We are born knowing it! good luck to you and your studies of Abraham, xoxo
@XOalakanaXO I'm happy for you as well, though I cannot agree with you (or Abe) that "there is no right or wrong way to live." I would submit to you that someone who goes around raping and murdering children would be living in a wrong way. If that is only my opinion, I still think it is important that people oppose that sort of life and do their best to--at the least--discourage it. Thank you for wishing me luck. xoxo kyra
@kyraspeaks Good point! Also, I am a vegan and that I am very interested in helping save animals from cruelty for human consumption. And I just wanted to mention to you that you seem very talented at finding information. So perhaps you would be interested in doing starting another channel presenting information to the public about animal rights? Can you imagine doing something you love, AND saving the lives of many innocent animals? Just a suggestion :) You have so much to offer the world! xoxo
@kyraspeaks And please note that I am not implying you are a bad person or that you have evil motives. It was just a question out of my own curiosity. I know you are most likely just trying to help others who have had bad experiences with Abraham, and to help them feel comfort about the victim mentality.
@XOalakanaXO And I know that you have good intentions and that you believe these materials are helping people, so I understand your position. I like that you are expressing your side because there are many who share your perspective, and you help me to clarify what I am trying to do. Others have contacted me to let me know this information has helped them, and there are those who are looking for this sort of information. That's why I continue.
@XOalakanaXO This is such a small part of my life, and I feel that I am offering so much to the world through it and through those other parts. I do want to say that I am surprised by your views about animal cruelty, considering Abraham's information regarding said subject. Personally, I gravitate more towards human rights issues.
@kyraspeaks Oh, i thought it was a big part of your life because its a big project with the blog, this channel, and your sister blog. Out of curiosity, what is your overall goal for your work? Suppose people began to see Abraham as a "scam"and stopped going to the seminars, etc. and Jerry and Esther went bankrupt and homeless. I know it will probably never happen, its like trying to convince christians to believe Jesus was a fraud, but would you feel satisfaction if that were to happen?
@XOalakanaXO It's something I am passionate about, but there are far more important parts of my life. I really only dedicate a few hours a week to this. I doubt that Esther or Jerry would go bankrupt even if someone had a recording of Esther saying, "Abraham is something we made up. It's a lie!" And I would think they would have enough money by now so that it wouldn't matter. Also, it's easier to see whether Esther is a fraud, because (unlike with Jesus) we have access to the real-life person.
@kyraspeaks It's nice to hear your views as well. Although Its interesting because you say you are doing this work for those who are looking for this information, but yet on your page you say you are outraged at the lack of skepticism of Abe followers. It seems like you may have a few of your own contradictions in need of attention. And I used the example of Jesus as an example of that people hold strong to their beliefs. It takes a lot of convincing evidence for someone to just let go of them.
@XOalakanaXO And I know from your perspective the evidence you have may be convincing enough for you. But have you ever watched a show on how they solve crimes? They have to have solid evidence to come to a conclusion. They cant convict someone of something over assumptions, which is most of what you use as evidence of Abraham's lack of authenticity. I admit, some of what you have made me question Abraham, but not enough to discredit them completely. Thank you for challenging my mind. :)
@XOalakanaXO I think I missed this one. Sorry, youtube doesn't really help me with seeing which one's I've responded to. I don't think I have to assume that Abraham's crop circle contradiction is blatantly contradictory (and clearly revealing a lack of all-knowingness). And I don't have to assume that Abraham's "Law of Attraction" is ripped off from New Thought authors. I can see that it clearly is.
@XOalakanaXO Well, first off, I can have contradictions cause I don't claim to be espousing universal wisdom. And I do not ask people to take my word for anything. They can evaluate everything I say and come to their own conclusions. Second off, I say that I am outraged at a lack of media skepticism (not skepticism from followers). I actually do my best not to refer to people who listen to Abraham as followers (since they usually do not refer to themselves as such).
@kyraspeaks Abraham also says not to take there word for anything and to come to our own conclusions. And you clearly meant when you said you were "outraged at the lack of skepticism in the media" towards Abraham's fans, otherwise you wouldn't have included it in the paragraph by which you told us a little bit about your goals, intending to "rip the face off of Abraham". Unless perhaps you are incapable of creating a coherent paragraph, which would explain the contradiction.
@XOalakanaXO But then Abraham tells you all these premises that cannot be verified other than through them (mine can be verified without me). By media, I am specifically referring to people like Oprah (who endorsed Abraham Hicks). I'm also expressing a grudge at Skeptical media for not having already discussed this subject in greater detail. I say clearly that the media has failed to do a critical analysis of Abraham Hicks, leading to how I will now be the one to "rip mask..."
@kyraspeaks And it doesn't matter if you claimed to espouse universal wisdom or not, you are creating a double standard. You are saying with this whole channel that contradictions make someone less then authentic. It's okay for you to contradict yourself, but no one else can? If your saying someone who contradicts themselves can't be taken seriously, how can we take you seriously?
@XOalakanaXO It's the same difference between creationists and scientists. Scientists making errors is okay, because their information is subject to testing and scrutiny (verification). The Bible making errors is not, because it claims to be accurate information from an authority (untestable). What I give can be verified and tested. What Abraham says, cannot be. For instance, what they say about nonphysical. That cannot be tested. If they contradict, their statements about it can't be trusted.
@kyraspeaks ...if I or any human contradicts, we have ways of testing and verifying what about the information is faulty. If Abraham contradicts, we have no way of assessing what is accurate.
@kyraspeaks I have enjoyed this interaction. You helped me expand. Agree to disagree. There is more to life then arguing on here, and I have said all I need to say. I wish you luck and i hope someday you find the answers to life through science so that this can be widely accepted and we can all live the way we intended. xoxo kyra, what a pretty name you have.
@XOalakanaXO Abraham is not really a "he." And they can't have it both ways. Either you apply LOA or you don't. In one case, they say you apply it. In the next, they say you don't.
@XOalakanaXO Yes, I'm aware. As a former self-professed Aber I know that Esther could walk into an audience and shoot someone and most wouldn't have any problem with it. There is really nothing I, or anyone, could offer--no matter how valid or true--that would bring them to question their Abraham. The creative excuses they can create to defend Esther and Jerry (and Abe) are endless. But thanks for the heads up.
Obviously you misinterpret the whole point of what abraham was saying. in the second clip he was trying to make the point that you cant turn LOA off, its always working no matter what.
If Abraham teachings work, how in the world, Jerry attracted cancer and died? Is that what they deliberately created? They kept bragging about Jerry being in the vortex most of the time. It seems to me none of the processes worked out for them. I think they sell false hopes to people. I feel really bad about the whole thing
jc1111vortex 1 month ago
I think what they're saying here is don't get so hung up on applying the law of attraction. It's there like gravity whether or not you remember to apply it. In the first clip, they're saying we need to beware of law of attraction to work with it in order to deliberately create what we want. Once you know it's there, you just know! and stop thinking about applying it all the time because it's being applied every single time! Think positive
winnika228 4 months ago
@winnika228 Thanks again for the comment. Are you sure you aren't making excuses up for them? These are two clearly conflicting statements. In one they say you apply it. In the next, they say you don't.
kyraspeaks 4 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I agree! It's soothing to hear something expressed with great clarity, that you yourself could not find words to describe. I like Abraham from the standpoint of my soul coming into harmony with certain statements that heal various issues within me. We can debate, and intellectualize all we want, but once you're healed from a teaching, that's what it's all about. Many seek guidance, and teachings hit us all differently. Latch on to what's for you and keep moving forward.
dggd 5 months ago
Esther translates blocks of thought. Searches for words,language to convey concepts of broader information received when tuned in to "Abraham", a name for collective nonphysical intelligence. Many concepts were new to Esther, so as time passes, message has fine tuned. As in any subject we ever learn, each contact, interaction, use, will deepen and broaden. Actual concept may not vary, limits of language, knowledge, experience of the translator affects how an idea is conveyed and morphs.
streaminglife 7 months ago
@streaminglife Thanks for the comment. I'm aware of what Esther claims to be doing. It seems that this sort of logic could be used to defend any charlatan/fraud if a contradiction or error arises.
kyraspeaks 7 months ago
Again, you are comparing information that is from 20 years ago. Things change, the universe expands, we grow and evolve. Nothing stays stagnant and what was known 20 years ago is more fined tuned today. I don't believe in or the do the same things I did 20 years ago because I've evolved... same holds true for Source energy, God, whatever name you apply to it. Still not convinced.
tamarahanson 7 months ago
@tamarahanson Thanks again for the comment. I think you are under some misapprehension. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I make this information available for those who are looking for it, as I once was. It's nice that you can provide them excuses when they err and contradict. However, you could use this same logic to defend any actual fraud/charlatan.
kyraspeaks 7 months ago
@kyraspeaks It's all about perception. Most definitely we could make excuses for anyone- even the Bible, God, Jesus, Mark, Paul, Ghandi. We have no real evidence to original meanings because any info has been bastardized throughout history. I think the best thing to do is take what feels right and leave the rest. PS: Anytime you plead a case about your opinion, you are trying to convince people...as I am doing right now. Thanks for your reply.
tamarahanson 7 months ago
@tamarahanson I agree with regards to the Bible. The Abraham materials are a little different since we actually do have access to the original documents/recordings.
kyraspeaks 7 months ago
Minutes ago I was having a wonderful time watching abe videos. I saw 1 our 2 dislikes on many and was wondering who are these people. and then bam I found this... Ask and its given baby.
Beliefisamyth 8 months ago
@Beliefisamyth Well, to be honest, I don't know who those people are. I don't "like" or "dislike" Abe vids.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
This is semantics. In the first clip they simply say that if WE live by those laws we understand what happens to us.Later in, they learnt from people that they understood those words differently and so Abraham is more precise. Abraham does change the wording all the time
lianania 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Can you offer some closing words? I think I, and anyone who reads this, gets where you are going with this. And they certainly should understand by now where I stand on this.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Scientists and quantum physicists aren't separate.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Words, words, words. None of this shows that you understand consciousness. It just means you've been well-versed in the art of talking in nonsense.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Maybe a better understanding of reality--certainly not any better understanding about consciousness.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL ...but that's what you are doing also...
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL All scientists are trying to prove things through science. Because they understand that things that are real can be proven.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL No, you just say it's that. That's not the same thing as knowing what it actually is.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Maybe you should take your own advice.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Anyone can claim some sort of esoteric understanding above others--doesn't mean they actually have it. Just means they can type.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I never said it. I said, "I don't believe whatever is proven through science is the only truth. But I believe that truth can be proven through science."
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL But you are just claiming to know. You don't. I wasn't claiming people don't experience things. I was saying that an experience can be easily misinterpreted and used to support wooey theories, which it is usually used to do. Just because you experience something, doesn't mean that you have understood what you are experiencing, which is why science is so important--not authoritative voices.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I have "experienced" it myself, which is why I'm unimpressed.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL You understand what you think consciousness is. That isn't the same thing as understanding it.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Again, I don't know how much more specific I can be about this. I applied the teachings. I "manifested," and experienced "healings," and gave "healings," and "read energy," and all that nonsense. That's why I know that there's nothing to it.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Yes it does.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL But there is a reality outside of us. We can measure it. We can analyze it. We can study it. As for consciousness, it seems that people are just taking a subject that no one understands and claiming to have some enlightened wisdom about it that has no means of verification.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL If you don't have proof, stop expecting me to think there is anything valid to what you are saying.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I don't deny experience or the value of it. I deny the supernatural elements that people put on it.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Well, I was saying that he was not taking the stories literally, which he's not.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I assume that you mean a piece of what Abraham teaches.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I agree that some things cannot be proven, but those would be things that aren't true or real. The mind is extremely powerful, but cannot do the things that the Abraham materials--and other materials like it--claim. I have tried it, so I'll assume the rest of your comment was just to a generic someone.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I'm explaining that he isn't taking it literally. He takes them as a metaphor. They aren't the same thing. I'm agreeing that he sees a truth behind them, but that truth is in a metaphor--not in the literal stories.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL (continued...) This might help. The Oxford English Dictionary defines literal as: "taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory."
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Literal and metaphorical are not the same thing. I agree he sees a deeper meaning to the myths that he sees as true, but that doesn't make it literal. Literal is taking the words at face value. He doesn't do that. He sees a truth behind them, but he does not consider the paranormal aspects to be authentic accounts. That's not taking them literally.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL If you love science so much, I can't understand why you are so against empirical proof and evidence. Personally, I'm not a fan of Campbell. I used to be, but he's talking about the usefulness of myths. He doesn't take the stories to be literally true. People take what Abraham says as if it were fact.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL What a lovely claptrap.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Well, there is also the fact of whether or not they are actually authentic--regardless of what people believe about them. I prefer the world of science, where they have to support their claims with evidence. It's a lot better than having to rely on authoritative voices and credulous personal experiences.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I was with the Abraham teachings for years, so I know that side of the fence.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Perhaps if I can see the truth in a lie, then I will see the significance of the Abraham teachings, cause that's all I would be doing.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I won't stay away from it. It doesn't serve your cause to say you refuse to prove your ridiculous claims...it just makes them appear even more ridiculous.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Pulleeeassee....The burden of proof is always on the person making the claim. Period. It is senseless the other way because it isn't anyone's job to run around disproving all the nonsense that's out there.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL You're just talking...you aren't supplying any evidence..."personal experience" isn't evidence because of its tendency towards cognitive biases and misunderstandings. Again, the burden of proof is on you because you are making the claim that the universe works this way. If you (and all those like you) aren't willing to supply any, don't be surprised by the fact that I say this is all bogus--because you haven't shown it to be otherwise.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL In response to your comments: You are talking about all these things as if they are facts, and they aren't. You talk about "knowing" this stuff, and knowing implies evidence--not just experience. Experience does not tell us fact. People say they "know" that there is a Hell and a devil, but that doesn't make them real. If these things were real, we could assess them scientifically and verify them with evidence.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL My point is that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim to prove it. It isn't my job to disprove the claim. If you are going to make a claim that it exists, you have to substantiate it with evidence. I don't need evidence that this doesn't exist for the same reason I don't need evidence the dragon in Carl Sagan's garage doesn't exist.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Just because you claim something does exist, doesn't mean it does.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Are you going to say they do exist because you can? Just because you see something, doesn't mean it's real (schizophrenics, alien abductions, satanic ritual abuse come to mind).
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL ...but it's not true for other reasons besides my lack of belief in it--like the fact that there isn't any evidence that it is true.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL In my response to all these comments, love is good, but we don't need any authoritative voices or gurus to reach for that.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL No, their teachings are telling people lies about the nature of reality. You can believe you will heal yourself of a terminal illness because of these teachings--doesn't mean that's going to happen. You can believe there is a metaphysical law that will assist you--doesn't mean it exists.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL To sum up my response to all your comments: I get that you feel that way, but it doesn't add any validity to the teachings. Any fraud could use--and have used--this sort of logic to dupe people into buying their shtick.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I'm not saying there isn't something to it. I'm just disagreeing about what that something is. I would say success reaped from LOA is a product of cognitive biases, the placebo effect, and misunderstandings about the law of very large numbers.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I have volumes of sincere-sounding testimonials, but there are too many factors that contribute to erroneous testimonials to be able to trust their validity.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I'm glad to hear you've found that peace. I'm going to be heading out for the night, but feel free to keep going, and I'll make sure to respond later.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I don't deny a mind/body connection (placebo/nocebo effect, stress, etc). I deny the way New Agers take it to unproven, absurd extremes. It is limited and we don't see placebos getting rid of things like AIDs or Parkinson's. And there is not sufficient evidence to support your claim about "your chances of overcoming it are better if you accept it."
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I am skeptical of this statement...
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL It's not valid if someone thinks they can cure themselves of an incurable illness and then they die trying because the process or technique never worked to begin with.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I'm not going to try and discredit you. I save that for the Hickses. But I will say that just because you can feel something doesn't mean it's vibrations. Just because I see a little fairy and it talks to me doesn't mean that I don't have a mental disorder [that's an example, not a fact ; )].
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Like I said, medical verification is what I'm talking about here. I have books full of unreliable healings of literally everything. Not a shred of evidence to show they actually happened.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Caroline Myss has a wonderful, unverified account of helping heal of man of HIV. No evidence. Lots of people claim this, but if it was happening as much as they would have people believe, we'd have the evidence to back it.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I've read him. Is there actually evidence for the one you're talking about, or are you just talking about one of his stories?
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL To New Agers...
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Very cool. Let me just reiterate that I'd be interested in something more than a testimonial. I've seen plenty of claims of such, but no proof to corroborate that it every actually happened.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL lol. me too ; )
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Twisting quantum field into something spiritual or having to do with consciousness. Again, you say it's real, prove it. If you aren't going to, don't be surprised that I think you're talking nonsense.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL No, the people who make the claim have to prove it. Period. If someone can prove gravity and evolution to me, they should have no problem proving these other concepts (if they were actually true). Because if they were, there would be plenty of medically verified cases of Parkinson's being healed, AIDs dissapearing, etc because of people changing their thoughts. That isn't the case though.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Says New Agers...
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Not so. The things that happened were all perfectly logical things that I twisted to make meaning of where there wasn't. The healings didn't happen, and that was shown when people wound up dead from the diseases they were trying to be cured of (even the one's who had previously claimed miraculous healings).
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Here is the quantum mysticism I was talking about. This is not what quantum physics is talking about. it's what New Agers try to twist it into.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL The burden of proof lies on the one making the claim that something is so. If you were to claim telekinesis was possible, it would be your job to prove it--not my job to disprove it.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Or just nothing better to do...
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I don't believe whatever is proven through science is the only truth. But I believe that truth can be proven through science.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Show me you can and then we can discuss it. It's not my job to prove that you can't. It's your job to prove you can.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL That's just the New Age perspective. Other religions would say that they exclusively hold the truth. So that really only works in New Ageland.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Experience is riddled with cognitive bias. Just because you have an experience doesn't mean it's valid. Period. I don't disagree with your statement about being born into different circumstances, though.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL You realize I have had supposed "experiences." I was a part of the Abraham teachings for many years and had many experiences that people would call amazing or miraculous. I used to work with healers and supposed mystics. Clearly, I was fairly unimpressed by it all.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL The truth is mystical, but I think we mean different things when we say that. Quantum mysticism is a set of unproven ideas that leech off of quantum physics, interjecting consciousness in places there is no reason to believe it is.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Cause New Age religions prey on that demographic the most. Because people don't understand it and are looking for answers and will turn to anyone who claims they have them. My point is, there is no evidence to show it can occur. It's not my job to prove that it can't. It's your job to prove that it can.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I don't know what you think "intelligent' has to do with religion.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL You can believe whatever you want. You can believe that a magical dragon gives you telekinesis. Doesn't change the fact that you aren't actually going to move anything with your mind.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I know that there are no medically verified cases of that occurring despite many attempts to verify it. "Do you have AIDS? watch who you sleep around with. lol." Seriously? Did you actually just say that?
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Do you mean "deeply" or without critical thinking skills? It's easy to make up a mystery school--a little more difficult to prove something is actually true.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Are you still talking about quantum mysticism?
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Meditation (and all the Abraham processes in the world) will not bring someone into perfect balance from AIDs. Show me evidence to the contrary, and I'll be impressed.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL About as real as the dragon in Carl Sagan's garage.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I don't know what you mean by this. I think people have lots of affect on their health by taking preventative measures, medication, etc.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL And there are more people talking about this vengeful God than just in Christianity or even in the U.S.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL It may not be mainstream, but I assure you that there are plenty who are still talking about this God.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Quantum physics isn't scary. Quantum mysticism is. Quantum physics is talking about the quantum world and doesn't apply to the macro world. The experiencer doesn't win when they believe they have "proof" they've been abducted by aliens, when they believe that there is a wrathful God who's going to punish them, when they believe that they've been raped by an Incubus. These are all things people have believed have been "proven" to them by their experience.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Health isn't something people choose. There are way more factors involved than just how you think.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Direct experience...I believe you're talking about cognitive biases. Plenty of people have their "proof" of a vengeful God. Doesn't make it so.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL I like my truth to be able to be proved to me. I don't take people's words for it and then rely on cognitive biases to support them.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL It seems that you are just making up excuses for her. I could make up excuses for any charlatan. It doesn't change the fact that their a charlatan with contradictions.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL No, quantum mysticism (not the same as quantum physics) scares the hell out of me because it is unfounded and a bunch of woo that people use to justify scary belief systems.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL They are part of a small piece of what Abraham is talking about. That doesn't speak to the validity of LOA. And thoughts are important. That doesn't mean that I agree that metaphysical laws respond to them.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL No, Jesus and Descartes weren't talking about the Law of Attraction. People who follow these sorts of materials just like to attach great thinkers to their philosophies.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL We can see the world through our own perception, but it doesn't change the facts. Again, I'd be interested in your take on the "Abraham Hicks' Memory Lapse" video.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL This doesn't change the fact that the two statements are opposed to one another. You can dig for a deeper meaning to "make" them work, but I don't have to do that to show that they are contradictory.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL The statements are clearly in opposition with each other. Period. I can't be much more clear than that.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL There are plenty of people who claim they were abducted by aliens. Doesn't mean it's true. I'd be interested to see your take of "Abraham Hicks' Memory Lapse" and let me know where my "misunderstanding" lies.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL The first one says you do have to apply it in order to be able to utilize the other laws. The second one says you don't. As in, you don't apply it. It doesn't need to be applied.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL No, it doesn't mean that. She says you have to apply LOA in order to be able to utilize the other laws. And in the next she says you don't apply it.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL A) These statements don't have to do with LOA (expect that people can claim anyone is talking about LOA when they say anything). B) Even if they did have something to do with LOA, why would I think that because Jesus or Descartes said it, it had more credibility?
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL It's not a law. It's a metaphysical concept that has no proof for its validity.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Yes, I understand that. That doesn't change the fact that in one recording they say you have to apply LOA and in another recording they say you don't apply it. Those statements are contradictory.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
@ChuckNorrisKratosLOL Regardless of what you think it means, the two statements are clearly in opposition of one another. Either you apply it or you don't. In one, they say you do. In another, they say you don't. Period.
kyraspeaks 8 months ago
I think the general point of abraham's teachings are based on the knowledge that you have the answers within you anyway.... even if there is a seeming contradiction, you have the ability to find the truth that clicks for you in a positive and meaningful way
maverick05716 10 months ago
@maverick05716 At the same time, Abraham presents a myriad of ideas that are only verified by their own authority. No one can validate the authenticity of what they say about the nonphysical or reincarnation, meaning it is likely as true as the other ideologies about afterlife that have been presented by self-professed translators (ie Heaven/Hell, the Underworld,etc). And there is no way of evaluating these any of these claims (from Abraham or from some inner intuition).
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@kyraspeaks I've listened to many different teachers, etc. who have said wonderful things that have made me feel good, but that alone doesn't make me "subscribe" to what they're offering. I have my weaknesses, but believe me, being a sucker for charlatans is definately NOT one of them! I have really good instincts, & I know i can trust them. But tho I love Abe, I have never, nor will ever suggest them to anyone, b/c like everything else in this world, i know it's not for everyone.
salamandastronable 10 months ago
@salamandastronable I understand all your points, and I respect you even though we disagree. I don't believe ANYONE is not a sucker for charlatans. And I mean that because historically and presently there are many very smart people who are taken in by clear phonies. This is why I have a hard time believing that you, or anyone else, could discern the real thing from a fraud.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@salamandastronable I also want to add that I am not trying to convert you or any other Abe follower here. I'm putting this information out for those who are looking for it, as I once was. I'm not offended by you believing in this or anything else.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@kyraspeaks Just read your reply -- I see your point, and I respect it. I think we could just go back & forth forever, in two parellel lines of thought, & both will always be valid, but we will never agree, b/c we are coming from very different places...we will have to agree to disagree! Agreeing will never be the "goal" -- nothing wrong with disagreeing with each other, b/c I think it's healthy to challenge each other on these things, to a point.
salamandastronable 10 months ago
@salamandastronable I agree that it is healthy for us to challenge each other. And I'm actually very glad that you aren't just willing to take my word for any of this. My only wish is maybe that you would be slightly more skeptical of Abraham. But if it's making you happy, I can certainly understand why you are using these materials. I did not have the same experience within them.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@kyraspeaks I want to thank you for raising this important discussion. But I think it's tricky to debate it accurately on either side b/c, as I began in my previous comment, you can't approach this from a purely intellectual angle. To quote you, "I am taking them for their literal word." Thing is, in order to present a fair or accurate "debunking", you have to go deeper. I mean, ANYONE can debunk ANYONE if they only take them at their literal word!
salamandastronable 10 months ago
@salamandastronable Having been someone who used and listened to Abe for years, I don't see any other way to look at it. In one they say you apply it. In another, they say it isn't something you apply. But, even if I gave you the benefit of the doubt (or Abe), this is not the only error I have found. Just check out my video about their memory lapse, where they actually mess up the names of Renegade/Snuggles and change the story.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
I've been listening to Abe for quite a while now, & sometimes I wonder whether I'm being delusional, & I check myself. Every time, I arrive at this: the bottom line is feeling, not words. As Abe says, "words don't teach," & when ppl have these intellectual conundrums, they're looking at it with their heads & not their hearts. The VERY FIRST TIME i heard Abe, I got this incredible FEELING that I had never got before, & can't describe. So I keep myself in check ....& I keep listening :)
salamandastronable 10 months ago
@salamandastronable But this is a conclusion that Abe has encouraged you to. I'm not necessarily saying it was created by them, but they are constantly encouraging this sort of emotional check. And any charlatan could use this sort of scheme to get a person to listen to them. They just have to say things that sound wonderful, person checks for good feeling, it's there--and voila! it validates the charlatan's words.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
I see no contradiction. She's saying that if one doesn't apply the LA effectively, consciously, the deliberate creation and allowing cannot be. Then what happens is a non deliberate creation and a non permission for what is wanted to be attracted, as the LA attracts what has similar vibration. It would be a random creation. But this, to me, is not the most important thing. What matters the most to me is to be able to change my feeling to a better one when I don't feel good. It works! It's great!
fernandatralala 10 months ago
@fernandatralala It's far more simple than that. In one, she says you can effectively apply Law of Attraction. In the other, she says that you don't apply Law of Attraction. Abraham can only have it one way. You can either apply LOA or you don't.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@kyraspeaks Yes, it's very simple and you are twisting it. She said that you don't need to do anything to LA happen. It will happen anyway. But you can effectively apply it... meaning that you can conduct it. Words are tricky and if you are determinated to find little things here and there to twist, you will have some pastime.
fernandatralala 10 months ago
@fernandatralala I am not twisting anything by putting their conversations side by side and showing the obvious contradiction. You can creatively justify it all you want, but to say the statements, as they are said, do not contradict, is just not true. And I am not determined to find little things...Esther is just that sloppy.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
So, are you implying that we are so brainwashed that we can't tell right from wrong? The fact that you compare what you've conducted to Esther shooting someone is ridiculous. Just because we have decided to follow Abraham's teachings regardless of what you've gathered does not mean we haven't made an informed decision. I am curious- if you disagree with Abraham's overall message, to be joyful and to follow your own personal guidance, then what do you believe? How do you live your life?
XOalakanaXO 10 months ago
@XOalakanaXO Are you implying that Abraham's message includes an idea about right and wrong? From The Vortex: "Flawed Premise #13: There are right ways and wrong ways to live." From Los Angeles, CA 08/02/98: "The question is not whether it's right or wrong, whether their approach is right or wrong, or whether my approach is right or wrong. The question is: Does their approach feel good to me?" And I was not using my statement to compare anything. I used it to illustrate Aber-devotion.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@XOalakanaXO I do not consider emotional guidance (you referred to it as personal guidance, I believe) to be a form of critical thinking. I have no problem with joy, but I don't think anyone needs to listen to Abe to believe that. Also, there are several unpleasant messages within the teachings that are far worse than these. I live my life knowing it is precious and beautiful and that I should do my best to make it even better.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@kyraspeaks Well I am happy for you that you enjoy your life, and i'm not going to push against you. We all have the right to live the way we want to. You brought up a really good point about what Abraham said- there is no right or wrong way to live, because there is one thing we can always agree on- we all love to be happy! and you are right, we don't need to listen to Abraham to know that. We are born knowing it! good luck to you and your studies of Abraham, xoxo
XOalakanaXO 10 months ago
@XOalakanaXO I'm happy for you as well, though I cannot agree with you (or Abe) that "there is no right or wrong way to live." I would submit to you that someone who goes around raping and murdering children would be living in a wrong way. If that is only my opinion, I still think it is important that people oppose that sort of life and do their best to--at the least--discourage it. Thank you for wishing me luck. xoxo kyra
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@kyraspeaks Good point! Also, I am a vegan and that I am very interested in helping save animals from cruelty for human consumption. And I just wanted to mention to you that you seem very talented at finding information. So perhaps you would be interested in doing starting another channel presenting information to the public about animal rights? Can you imagine doing something you love, AND saving the lives of many innocent animals? Just a suggestion :) You have so much to offer the world! xoxo
XOalakanaXO 10 months ago
@XOalakanaXO p.s ***sorry for my off- topic ness!
XOalakanaXO 10 months ago
@XOalakanaXO It's all good. I welcome all discussion here. I enjoy interacting with people who think differently than I do.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@kyraspeaks And please note that I am not implying you are a bad person or that you have evil motives. It was just a question out of my own curiosity. I know you are most likely just trying to help others who have had bad experiences with Abraham, and to help them feel comfort about the victim mentality.
XOalakanaXO 10 months ago
@XOalakanaXO And I know that you have good intentions and that you believe these materials are helping people, so I understand your position. I like that you are expressing your side because there are many who share your perspective, and you help me to clarify what I am trying to do. Others have contacted me to let me know this information has helped them, and there are those who are looking for this sort of information. That's why I continue.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
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XOalakanaXO 10 months ago
@XOalakanaXO This is such a small part of my life, and I feel that I am offering so much to the world through it and through those other parts. I do want to say that I am surprised by your views about animal cruelty, considering Abraham's information regarding said subject. Personally, I gravitate more towards human rights issues.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@kyraspeaks Oh, i thought it was a big part of your life because its a big project with the blog, this channel, and your sister blog. Out of curiosity, what is your overall goal for your work? Suppose people began to see Abraham as a "scam"and stopped going to the seminars, etc. and Jerry and Esther went bankrupt and homeless. I know it will probably never happen, its like trying to convince christians to believe Jesus was a fraud, but would you feel satisfaction if that were to happen?
XOalakanaXO 10 months ago
@XOalakanaXO It's something I am passionate about, but there are far more important parts of my life. I really only dedicate a few hours a week to this. I doubt that Esther or Jerry would go bankrupt even if someone had a recording of Esther saying, "Abraham is something we made up. It's a lie!" And I would think they would have enough money by now so that it wouldn't matter. Also, it's easier to see whether Esther is a fraud, because (unlike with Jesus) we have access to the real-life person.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@kyraspeaks It's nice to hear your views as well. Although Its interesting because you say you are doing this work for those who are looking for this information, but yet on your page you say you are outraged at the lack of skepticism of Abe followers. It seems like you may have a few of your own contradictions in need of attention. And I used the example of Jesus as an example of that people hold strong to their beliefs. It takes a lot of convincing evidence for someone to just let go of them.
XOalakanaXO 10 months ago
@XOalakanaXO And I know from your perspective the evidence you have may be convincing enough for you. But have you ever watched a show on how they solve crimes? They have to have solid evidence to come to a conclusion. They cant convict someone of something over assumptions, which is most of what you use as evidence of Abraham's lack of authenticity. I admit, some of what you have made me question Abraham, but not enough to discredit them completely. Thank you for challenging my mind. :)
XOalakanaXO 10 months ago
@XOalakanaXO I think I missed this one. Sorry, youtube doesn't really help me with seeing which one's I've responded to. I don't think I have to assume that Abraham's crop circle contradiction is blatantly contradictory (and clearly revealing a lack of all-knowingness). And I don't have to assume that Abraham's "Law of Attraction" is ripped off from New Thought authors. I can see that it clearly is.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@XOalakanaXO Well, first off, I can have contradictions cause I don't claim to be espousing universal wisdom. And I do not ask people to take my word for anything. They can evaluate everything I say and come to their own conclusions. Second off, I say that I am outraged at a lack of media skepticism (not skepticism from followers). I actually do my best not to refer to people who listen to Abraham as followers (since they usually do not refer to themselves as such).
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@kyraspeaks Abraham also says not to take there word for anything and to come to our own conclusions. And you clearly meant when you said you were "outraged at the lack of skepticism in the media" towards Abraham's fans, otherwise you wouldn't have included it in the paragraph by which you told us a little bit about your goals, intending to "rip the face off of Abraham". Unless perhaps you are incapable of creating a coherent paragraph, which would explain the contradiction.
XOalakanaXO 10 months ago
@XOalakanaXO But then Abraham tells you all these premises that cannot be verified other than through them (mine can be verified without me). By media, I am specifically referring to people like Oprah (who endorsed Abraham Hicks). I'm also expressing a grudge at Skeptical media for not having already discussed this subject in greater detail. I say clearly that the media has failed to do a critical analysis of Abraham Hicks, leading to how I will now be the one to "rip mask..."
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@kyraspeaks And it doesn't matter if you claimed to espouse universal wisdom or not, you are creating a double standard. You are saying with this whole channel that contradictions make someone less then authentic. It's okay for you to contradict yourself, but no one else can? If your saying someone who contradicts themselves can't be taken seriously, how can we take you seriously?
XOalakanaXO 10 months ago
@XOalakanaXO It's the same difference between creationists and scientists. Scientists making errors is okay, because their information is subject to testing and scrutiny (verification). The Bible making errors is not, because it claims to be accurate information from an authority (untestable). What I give can be verified and tested. What Abraham says, cannot be. For instance, what they say about nonphysical. That cannot be tested. If they contradict, their statements about it can't be trusted.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@kyraspeaks ...if I or any human contradicts, we have ways of testing and verifying what about the information is faulty. If Abraham contradicts, we have no way of assessing what is accurate.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@kyraspeaks I have enjoyed this interaction. You helped me expand. Agree to disagree. There is more to life then arguing on here, and I have said all I need to say. I wish you luck and i hope someday you find the answers to life through science so that this can be widely accepted and we can all live the way we intended. xoxo kyra, what a pretty name you have.
XOalakanaXO 10 months ago
@XOalakanaXO I have enjoyed this interaction as well. Thank you for taking the time to converse with me about this subject. xoxo ; )
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@XOalakanaXO Abraham is not really a "he." And they can't have it both ways. Either you apply LOA or you don't. In one case, they say you apply it. In the next, they say you don't.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
@kyraspeaks Okay well i was just letting you know because most abers wont see this as a contradiction. :)
XOalakanaXO 10 months ago
@XOalakanaXO Yes, I'm aware. As a former self-professed Aber I know that Esther could walk into an audience and shoot someone and most wouldn't have any problem with it. There is really nothing I, or anyone, could offer--no matter how valid or true--that would bring them to question their Abraham. The creative excuses they can create to defend Esther and Jerry (and Abe) are endless. But thanks for the heads up.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago
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XOalakanaXO 10 months ago
Obviously you misinterpret the whole point of what abraham was saying. in the second clip he was trying to make the point that you cant turn LOA off, its always working no matter what.
XOalakanaXO 10 months ago
@XOalakanaXO I want to add that I am taking them for their literal word. You are the one interpreting some deeper meaning to the statements.
kyraspeaks 10 months ago