ALPHA Course Pioneer Nicky Gumbel

[joelmennie1]

You can check out more sermons and talks by Nicky Gumbel on Bible-Reflections net

[JanMichael6969]

A wonderful series of videos and community "breaking bread" together. As a Christian for many years the videos were great! As part of a group new to our community in Canada it was a positive get together. The small group talks was not my thing but I took in the fellowship, the videos and recommend the Alpha program as a positive course and Nick Gumbel's voice of calm and love is wonderful and inspiring..

Jan-Michael

[JacquesBeard]

Nicky Gumbel is heading for the lake of fire.

[zytigon]

E.A.Wallis Budge translation of, 'The Papyrus of Ani' (1500BCE comp O.T.800-300BCE ish), other great writings are by Donald A. Mackenzie,' Egyptian myth and legend', James G Frazer, 'The Golden Bough', For sceptical Bible scholars try Thomas Paine, Mark Twain, Joseph Wheless, Robert Ingersoll, C.Dennis Mckinsey, Victor J Stenger, Robert M Price, Dan Barker, John W. Loftus, Bart Ehrman, Gary Greenberg, Richard Carrier, David Mills, Valerie Tarico, Ken Humphreys, archaeologist Israel Finkelstein

[ParagramTree]

Wow this man is such a brainwashed idiot! How can anyone in the 21st century still believe in the ancient Jesus myth? People should visit : WWWdotJESUSNEVEREXISTEDdotCOM

[eppingmelb]

@MyHenry22 You are really wrong. Spirits/Ghosts are real. Jesus and God are spirit. And Powerful. Seek them and they WILL reveal themselves to you, to your amazement.

[helene929]

Its not what Nicky Gumble teaches that Alpha is exploring ..it is the Word of God..You miss the point if you do not understand the love of God in His Word. If you accept His word it will fulfil your life, not ruin it, and it removes all condemnation. You become motivated rather than controlled..a totally different thing. Anyone who has been 'in love' will underatand what that difference is and God IS love! I know He has changed and filled my life for good!

[EmploymentPrograms]

I am a member of Holy Trinity Brompton, where NIcky GUmbels preaches. I can tell you quite honestly that behind the scenes the knives are out. They are such control freaks. People who disagree are punished by being excluded from all social events, and can even be surrounded by bullies and physically removed.

The real church does not have hierarchy - there is no abuse of power - as there is at HTB

[BurntOakTree]

Nicky Gumbel says that gay people will burn forever in hell and so will unmarried couples who have sex before marriage. He is an idiot no different from Islamic extremists!

[eppingmelb]

@BurntOakTree Sadly you do not know what your saying. You are most uneducated in religion. Read the Bible and the Koran and you will see the difference. Seek the truth and be like Jesus, Gentle and Humble and he will reveal himself to you. He is spirit/ghost and they are real. We all have Spirits/Souls.

[katiezeppieri]

Nicky is such a wonderful speaker and inspirational leader for Christianity. His alpha course is changing thousands and thousands of lives around the world.

[TheApostleP]

Seeker-friendly false teaching perhaps? I believe I've already taken the true Alpha Course... which is also the Omega Course... and I don't believe Nicky Gumbel was the author. Hear the Gospel. Repent of your sins. Accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Die to yourself. Pick up your cross and follow Him. Study the Word of God. Preach the Gospel.  Live like a slave of Christ and claim your inheritance as an heir to the kingdom of Heaven, a child of God, a redeemed sinner. Then eat and relax.

[LarsTheHonest]

This man is an amazing author.

[Freethinking2010]

Religious entrepreneur.

[iNewTestament]

@scabycat Richyboy12 is away at the moment but Richyboy12 will be back.

[richyboy12]

And BTW for those who can't find ref to Jesus anywhere else but the bible, i strongly suggest you read the Koran, he’s also mentioned in Buddhism and many academic journals, he’s mentioned in encyclopedias, published peer reviewed books (authors both Christian, Atheist, religious etc) - to deny even an historical relevance, sorry guys, that is just plain ignorant.

[richyboy12]

The teachings in the bible are not about hate and intolerance (you just have the mind set to read it that way) the bible is about experience, to overcome and how to adapt, survive and live well. Next time people say its about slavery have a good think about next time you get drunk and then tell me your not a slave to that, or smoke, or have promiscuous sex etc etc how great do you feel AFTER that has worn off? Jesus is forever, hes for you.

[mar504]

@richyboy12 So you are admitting you are a slave to dogma? I can overcome, adapt, survive, and I live well without religion... why do I need this mythological figure in my life?

[richyboy12]

@mar504 Yet, you feel the need to comment? Indeed, very happy being a servant to Jesus. Thanks…..Religion? Who said anything about religion? From that i see only fanaticism and intolerance from all sides, atheists included . I have no time for Religion – no true believer of Christ should. Mythological? Although you may not believe in Christ yet (as a Lord and Saviour), you cannot deny he was a historical figure. So what do you believe in? Anything? Why?

[mar504]

@richyboy12 Who said anything about religion? You did; religion is a belief in a God. And no, I can't accept him as a historical figure.... I seem to be having a lot of trouble finding any contemporary reference to Jesus other than the bible. Why is that? You'd think that who was pulling off miraculous feats, turning water into wine, walking on water, healing the blind, would have all sorts of historical accounts. Yet I can't find a single one that was written while he was alive.

[scabycat]

@richyboy12 You say " you cannot deny he ( jesus ) was a historical figure" why not?What evidence is there he existed at all? No contemorary writers ever wrote about this so called messiah and the vast crowds that suposedly followed him. Why not?

Could it be that he never existed at all perhaps? Christianity is largely based on the writings of Paul- who never even met Jesus. Were it not for Paul Christianity would be a long forgotten cult by now

[richyboy12]

@scabycat Like i said you have to have the mind set. Paul, thru his FAITH, (a vision of Christ). By your logic, and many others, your pretty much discounting the whole Ancient worlds and their histories, because of your inability to trust, because "you" havn’t heard of it, or "you" haven’t read of it, therefore by "your" logic nothing could exist so what is there? This is about FAITH. your missing that point, but you cannot state anything didn’t happen based on “your” understanding.

[scabycat]

@richyboy12 Imagine I was accused of some serious crime and in the court room I said to the judge- I am telling the truth. I have no evidence whatsoever that can prove my innocence but I am asking you ( or telling you in religion) to have FAITH in what I say as being the truth. Do you think I would possibly be aquitted? Don 't be silly!!

this is what religion tells people to do- Surrender all your reason, logic and intellect and have faith in some bizzare old text. Come on wake up!!

[richyboy12]

@scabycat so whats the crime? whats my standard of proof? under whos law? the law of man? ahh. Still not thinking right to understand, your thinking like a person of this world subject to these rule when your trying to explain omething far greater. In order to be found guilty of a serious crime, even under the law of man, you first must have the mens rea (guilty mind)... the mind is everything. Get your mind right, then this standard of proof, even this way of thinking is obsolete :D

[scabycat]

@richyboy12 Oh really , don't be so silly. How many people have been found guilty of crimes and been executed only for them to have been found innocent years later? You really are delving into the world of the nonsensicle. Back to my original question which you have failed completely to answer Where is the evidence?

[richyboy12]

@scabycat Its not a question, it was astatement, that you think/thought you know/knew the answer too. But... Ok....The evidence is the Bible and ones own revelations. In response also to you previous statement, how many legal jurisdictions state in "God we trust", same as on money,lol, and why? Your trying to apply the evidence of man to a situation it will never be able to understand you MUST have FAITH check out TD Jakes – Free your mind on youtube

[scabycat]

@richyboy12 I can assure you I have investigated the bible and the whole issue of faith very thoroughly. I have studied religion in a wholistic way . Everyone is different and has differing opinions-fair enough. But for the life of me I simply cannot understand how an INTELLIGENT person can possibly be taken in by the Bible and other holy books. You talk about FAITH- I call it superstition. There is no place for superstition in the 21st century- regards

[richyboy12]

@scabycat I used to be the same, if i said i didn't understand "your" viewpoint I’d be an hypocrite, but i prefer my viewpoint. Just for your own intellectual curiosity check out tacitus and pliny, these are both ancient sources on Christ that are not "Christian". my academic background is Ancient History (classical studies) and Arts (Medieval History-Early Modern) I know its hard to believe an educated person believes this, but mate, its faith, Have a good one! i enjoyed the "talk".

[scabycat]

@richyboy12 test

[omgiwaswrong]

@richyboy12 It's an interesting point. I looked into Pliny and he said the Christians were worshipping Christ as a god. Now the bible says that some people worshipped Diana as a god. By your standard that is evidence of the divinity of Diana.

Personally, I can't accept that because a few scholars mentioned the practices of the early Christians, that that can be used as evidence to justify the veracity of their beliefs.

Evidence _of_ a belief is not evidence _for_ a belief.

[richyboy12]

@omgiwaswrong Thats for your interesting comment... i like what you said Evidence _of_ a belief is not evidence _for_ a belief. i'll give that some good thought, have a great day! ;)

[BurntOakTree]

@scabycat look at Davey Falcus's video on here if you don't believe in Christianity type 'Davey Falcus' in the search slot. Also look up the video on here called 'He sold his soul to the devil then God stepped in'. I used to be a big skeptic too about christianity for many many years. I still don't believe everything in the Bible but reckon that the basics are right.

[richyboy12]

@richyboy12 I said nothing about Religion. Religion is man made. Do not think that Christianity is a Religion, Religion is not of God. Read the Gospel of St. Thomas. I guess you can thank the Catholic Church (a religion) for suppressing information for thousands of years; read about the reformation in England to gain a better understanding of that (which leads to another religion. Don’t blame your inability to research on your results. Faith, FAITH is a wonderful thing, thats what it is about.

[wycliffe35]

Alpha is run by volunteers many of whom have not the slightest theological training or background. It claims to encourage exploration whilst giving one the preordained answers. Alpha offers nothing to multi-faith dialogue, it is homophobic at its core just read 'searching Issues' written by the 'Alpha' founder Nicky Gumbel.

The language: illogical and beyond all sense-experience; do they not know Copernicus and Galileo removed the theistic deity from the heavens some 400 years ago?

[Freethinking2010]

@wycliffe35 Well pointed out.

[8bluestone]

It is all to confusing sorry. Hopefully God will have mercy on me for being so confused with all the religious denominations. Perhaps it is a sign that the Lord is preparing the way for his return. God Bless.

[cambola4]

For anyone who might be thinking about taking this stuff seriously, don't. Look up the following US evangelists and ask yourself about the integrity of evangelism: Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson, Jim & Tammy Bakker, Peter Popoff. We do not need the noxious disease of evangelism to spread in the UK. Also, read up on the Alpha course's attitudes to homosexuality, and see what bigots they are.Typical of religion, trying to control minds and behaviour.

[scabycat]

I went on an Alfa course and in my naivity, I thought the Bible was all about love and harmony and understanding. After some pretty thorough research I am now a confirmed atheist! The bible is all about hatred, intolerence, violence and arrogance.However there is no need to worry about this because anyone with a certain degree of intelligence would soon discover the Bible is utter NONSENSE.

Just type " contradictions and errors in the Bible" into a search engine and see !!

[mudwimp]

Nicky is a modern day Christian hero ... a John Wesley for today! I've done Alpha and now I write songs... many Christian songs... check them out. God Bless, Mal

[SOAS007]

@mudwimp "many Christian songs... check them out"

as long as they don't include lyrics like ' We ''know'' the ''truth'' ,or believe or burn in hell.! NT jubberish.

and other false Claims.

[SOAS007]

@InternetUser1999 "How come there are modern miracles with people being healed after being prayed for in the name of Jesus? "

that old trick.. Any amputees amongtst the healed, thought not....

There are lots of quackery that can perform that sort of stuff..

[sweetsweatyfeet]

I've asked this before but no one seems able or willing to answer--- Does Nicky Gumbel believe in evolution?

[2besavedcom]

Over the years we have all been lied to by many false religous leaders and so called prophets. Many things we have been taught are not even in Scripture and millions have swallowed so many lies by these false leaders. If you are a truth seeker, please visit the web site which is displayed in my picture and take the time to read some of the articles... You will be very shocked. This is an audio there that will shock you.

Blessings as you seek truth

Thanks Ben

[SOAS007]

@2besavedcom "Many things we have been taught are not even in Scripture "

and many things in scriptures may not even be true.

[InternetUser1999]

@2besavedcom, but there are many who would disagree with you. Many people have experienced modern miracles such a healing after being prayed for. And speaking in tongues, ie in foreign languages for which there is no scientific explanation. Then there is historical evidence for the existance of Jesus written by none Christians. I know most people find it hard to believe that God exists but there is proof out there if you look for it.

[SOAS007]

@InternetUser1999 " Then there is historical evidence for the existance of Jesus written by none Christians. "

Where.!?

First hand?

Most of the NT is hearsay.

[SOAS007]

@InternetUser1999 "Many people have experienced modern miracles such a healing after being prayed for"

anecdotal. If prayer works, we don't need hospitals.!!

[InternetUser1999]

@SOAS007 of course we still need hospitals you moron! Miracle healings only work when performed by gifted people with the power to perform them who have been blessed by the Holy Spirit. They could not replace the hospital and ambulance service as there are too many accidents and ill people across the country for those few healers to deal with!

[SOAS007]

@InternetUser1999 " Miracle healings only work when performed by gifted people with the power to perform them who have been blessed by the Holy Spirit. "

pleeese! :-)

[InternetUser1999]

@SOA007 Nicky Gumbel is a great man. A hell of a lot better than any of you athiests. Athiest philosophy is that human life has no purpose or value. That all human life exists only because of pure chance and nothing else. You athiests are sad people!

[SOAS007]

@InternetUser1999 "Athiest philosophy is that human life has no purpose or value."

is it?

BTW have you ANY evidence that the NT is true yet, found any?

[InternetUser1999]

There is historical evidence for the existance of Jesus! For his death and reserection! Several none christian historians write about him. google Jesus the evidence. Also look at Jesus's prohecy : "Beware of false prophets, many will come in my name and decieve many". A prediction of Jim Jones who caused the Guyana tradgedy and David Koresh of Waco.

[SOAS007]

@InternetUser1999 "Several none christian historians write about him. "

First hand witnesses ... Name one.!!!

[InternetUser1999]

Ever heard of textual criticism? That means you can tell whether a historical event is likely to be true by the length of time between when it happened and when it was recorded and by the number of copies of the account of that historical event.

Well there are far more written accounts of the life of Jesus and a narrower time gap between when they were written than there is for many other ancient historical events that are accepted by professional historians as true.

[SOAS007]

@InternetUser1999 "Ever heard of textual criticism?" ever heard of EVIDENCE.!

"historical event is likely to be true "

vigin births and rising from the dead are not likely to be true.. , and all the writings are by unknown 2nd hand authors. Thats called hearsay and rumour.

[ichthus211]

Tell Jesus all that when he returns,. He probably like to hear that.

[SOAS007]

@ichthus211 "He probably like to hear that. "

Yup, and if he is as you claim, would understand why I have not been taken in by all the hype.!

[SOAS007]

@InternetUser1999 "there is for many other ancient historical events that are accepted by professional historians as true. "

like cooke discovered Australia, and columbus the USA.. So much of history is Spin, but hen you add religious claims you have a motive to exaggerate too.!

[InternetUser1999]

@SOAS007 have you ever seen anyone being healed by people praying for them in the name of Jesus? I have, that is how I know that Christianity is real. Because I have seen for myself modern miracles happen.

[SOAS007]

@InternetUser1999 "have you ever seen anyone being healed by people praying for them in the name of Jesus?"

yes this is well explained by proper science.

Did you have a proper diagnosis, and prognosis of their illness. ? No of course not.

Many people are 'cured' by placeobo effects. That makes prayer healing no more real that homeopathy.

No limbs have been grown back, and Stevie wonder is still blind. Would be nice if you could give him sight . HOw come it can't ?

[InternetUser1999]

@SOAS007 I have met people who have been cured by prayer and I know it is not something like a placebo effect! Look up videos on here of Gypsy William Lee who cures people at Kensington Temple in London. Also look at the interview on here with rap musician MC Tempo where he explains how he was healed of deafness in one ear.

[SOAS007]

@InternetUser1999 " I know it is not something like a placebo effect! "

Any 'miracle' cure, I think has a moral duty to have its claims confirmed by testing. The same as proper medicine has to. Unfortunately , 'miracle' cures never want to submit to this.!

Only certain conditions are ever cured. Let stevie wonder have his sight, he is a believer. If it works then it should work better than a statistical quess( placeobo effect) result.

[InternetUser1999]

But some people like Gypsy William Lee of Kensington Temple can consistantly cure people through prayer. Just look at all the videos he has got on youtube! Type in "Gypsy William Lee" + "healing" into the search slot on youtube and see it for yourself. Of course some people will never believe because they are so stubborn.

[SOAS007]

@InternetUser1999 " can consistantly cure people through prayer."

uri geller consistantly bent spoons..

Let us see him heal someone that has a known prognosis consistantly. this kinda faith fake healing is well understood not to work constantly.

David Blunket, and Stevie wonder I nominate.

[ichthus211]

Plenty of proof!

[SOAS007]

@InternetUser1999 " I know most people find it hard to believe that God exists but there is proof out "

then no faith is required.!

[stevenstiffler78]

Nicky Gumbel is a wolf in sheeps clothing. The ecumencial alpha course that he has promoted should be rejected by all true bible believers

[simonorton]

The most hateful, smug, self centred, hypocritical, unloving, unforgiving, nasty, lying, two faced, judgemental, idiotic, self satisfied, ignorant and downright hurtful people I've ever met have been Christians.

If I never meet another one it will be too soon.

[InternetUser1999]

Yet it is Christians who provide 90 per cent of the services that homeless people rely on. From winter night shelters, to soup kitchens, on street food handouts and homeless day centres almost all are church run or else were started by christians such as the homeless charity St Mungos.

[simonorton]

83 % of statistics are made up. Where did you ge tyours from ?

Are you saying that organisations like Shelter, Big Issue (who are not, as far as I'm aware, Christian organisations) account for less then 10% of the help given to homeless people, that if Christians have a monopoly on compassion by providing 'almost all' of the help provided that secular help amounts to 'almost none' ? Did I include 'arrogance' in my list ... ?

[InternetUser1999]

Listen I have been homeless on and off for many years so know for certain I am right. I know of dozens of church run soup kitchens and church founded homeless daycentres in London alone! Almost all the on street free food handouts in London are provided by churches as well. As for secular homeless service well there is crisis at christmas providing just one week of shelter for the homeless in late December. The chaity Shelter, which provides no actual services for homeless, it just campaigns.

[simonorton]

I'm sure the services you mention are a huge help but to suggest that the church have a monopoly on compassion and care is just a lie. The 90% figure is plucked out of thin air. You disregard the work done by Big Issue -arguably the most well known homeless work done in this country. To say that Shelter is 'just campaigns' is nonsense. Google them-"Homelessness charity that runs a housing helpline, has a network of housing aid centres, and works with local citizens advice bureaux."

[SOAS007]

@InternetUser1999 "Yet it is Christians who provide 90 per cent of the services that homeless people rely on."

incorrect, !

[InternetUser1999]

No I am right! You have obviously never been homeless like I have or else you would know that around 90 per cent of homeless daycentres, soup kitchens and free food handouts are either church run or else were founded by church people.

[SOAS007]

@InternetUser1999 "No I am right!"

are you counting all the people that are living in state funded housing? I am a landlord and the state pays for them to staty there, ( no religion taught either).?

[InternetUser1999]

Nicky Gumbel did not start the Alpha course he took it over in 1988! It was originally started by Reverend Charles Marnham in 1979. By the way I did the Alpha at Holy Trinity Nicky's church and it was more like the Nicky Gumbel show, with so many things about him he talks about. So maybe I will do another Alpha at a different church where the paster is not an egomanaic who thinks the world revolves around him.

[shakeypitt]

He is known in my household as Saintnickybleedin'gumble.

[sweetsweatyfeet]

Why is god satisfied by punishing the innocent for the "sins" of the guilty? How does that make sense? -- and why do you keep evading this point?

[sweetsweatyfeet]

The only reason why such ridiculous notions even exist in the bible is because it was believed by the ignorant primitives that god wanted a blood sacrifice (of some kind) to atone for the transgressions of everyone else. They believed that "sin' was transferred by birth and that a man was guilty for the wrongdoing of his forefathers, etc.

This is the thinking of primitive savages, not of any god.

By any stretch of enlightened rational thinking this is nonsense, it is morally offensive as well.

[pegasus1747]

sweetsweatyfeet please read this book

What's So Great about Christianity"; you will find your objections addressed a DIRECTLY;What's So Great about Christianity",Your Guide to Answering the New Atheists by DinesHd'D SOUZA:

/

W:

[sweetsweatyfeet]

I find D'Souza is just another loud mouth posturing as an thoughtful Christian. His arguments are actually quite poor. I have read and heard people of far greater scope and depth than this man. He is not objective or impartial nor is he scientific. And his attempts to blame atheism for the crimes of mass murdering despots are particularly offensive.

[pegasus1747]

sweetsweatyfeet I would like to invite you to the Alpha course at my church; the leader begs us to bring in people like youl please come!

[sweetsweatyfeet]

There is nothing you could say that I haven't heard before. I was brought up Christian and heard all the arguments which I do not find persuasive in the least. But it's really the content of scripture that leads me to where I am today-- an atheist. I not only find the bible factually unfeasible, but objectionable in it's moral/philosophical positions.

I might consider going to Alpha for observational purposes as my girlfriend (a Christian) has always wanted to take this indoctrination session.

[InternetUser1999]

Actually the Alpha Course is for athiests! It was changed from a course for new christians under Gumbels leadership to a course for athiests to try to convince them.

[sweetsweatyfeet]

I do have one question which I'm hoping you can answer concerning Nick Gumbel. I've asked this before but have never been able to find an answer as he seems to avoid the subject. I'd like to know his position on evolution---does he believe it or reject it. For me this is highly indicative of the kind of Christian he is. If he rejects evolution then he is likely a biblical literalist.

There are many thoughtful Christians who DO believe accept evolution. Even the vatican does not deny evolution.

[SOAS007]

@sweetsweatyfeet "Even the vatican does not deny evolution. "

woopy do, they accept earth orbiting the sun now too. Too late. They don't accept jesus had siblings though.

Christians canot agree on what THEIR book means, its pretty obviously manmade.

[000gmail000]

But noone is really innocent. It is impossible to fully understand this seeing as none of us individually created the universe. The only thing we can go by is what we believe brings, and the loving way of life the bible teaches brings so much good, I do not see that it could be wrong

[sweetsweatyfeet]

To declare that "no one is innocent" really means that no one is perfect. Why should we repent or atone for an imperfect nature which is not ours by choice since no one is CAPABLE of being perfect. That which is outside the possibility of choice is outside the province of morality.

Christianity is nothing but a fear based control system invented as a political tool to manipulate the masses and ultimately create a ruling theocracy.

[000gmail000]

Of course no one is perfect but the idea is to head towards perfection rather than away from it. We should repent for the things we do that we can change.

And yes it manipulates the masses because it changes peoples lives. People search for purpose and meaning in their lives and Christianity grants them this, people need control, society needs control, so how can this be a bad thing?

[sweetsweatyfeet]

We should never have to apologize or repent for not being perfect (whatever that means) since perfection is not a choice available to us. According to Christianity---only god is perfect---so how can WE practice a standard of perfection the bible defines as impossible for us to practice? It defies reason.

By manipulation, what I mean to say is---Christianity is 100% fraud---a fear based control system made up to cripple the human faculty of reason and replace it with submission and obedience.

[000gmail000]

We are not expected to be perfect. This is why Jesus came to die on the cross. Our sins are forgiven, but this should not stop us from trying to live in the best way we can.

There is so much reason in Christianity. The idea is we can question what we believe, doing this helps understand the reason behind how the bible says we should live. Sure we should be obedient but it does not have to be unquestioned obedience.

[pegasus1747]

@sweetsweatyfeet Did you say primitive Jews invented this as a political tool to manipulate the masses and ultimately create a ruling theocracy.?

Clever!

[globe255]

What i dont like about christianity or other religions is that all of them are so unbelievable man chauvinistically. All the religions put women under man and thats what i find disgusting. My own kind of power is just a kind of God but without religion. The power i believe in can help me through my life, when its needed. Basically its my own energy accumulated, all at one time, combined with the external power (kind of extra energy in difficult situations) to make it complete in its whole.

[squalllion1uk]

Jesus did have a mother ya know... He didnt just pop up!

[globe255]

Hmmmn i can see there is some who doesnt agree with me about my statement about a God. Im not saying its bad to have an religion, but that i dont agree that women shall be under the man, cause thats not what God wants. God want us to be equal. There is only one God and thats God.

[sweetsweatyfeet]

The only purpose of the alpha so called "course" is to convert you to Christianity. Christianity requires converts which insults all other beliefs by implication. The Christian belief system is intrinsically intolerant. Aside from Islam it's the only religious belief system that threatens you with eternal torture for failure to believe.

Any religion that threatens you with torture for not submitting is not only likely to be false, it is also profoundly evil.

[squalllion1uk]

Uneducated comment

[sweetsweatyfeet]

No it isn't, It is quite thoughtful. You just disagree and feel that being a condescending jackass is a good ay to argue your position.

[squalllion1uk]

Please quote where in the scripture it says you will be tortured?

Also if its ONLY purpose is to convert then why do christians who have been for a few years go to it? Why convert those who already are? Its far from its ONLY purpose.

There is no need to get so aggresive.

[squalllion1uk]

tortured for not believing exactly.

[sweetsweatyfeet]

"There is no need to get so aggressive."

The "uneducated comment" remark was not exactly friendly.

The NT speaks of HELL in many places and describes it as a place of torment in the after life for those who reject god. The greatest bulk of fundamentalist Christians believe in such a hell (they continuously threaten it on atheists). I'd wager Gumbel believes in hell (and Satan) too.

The reason many Christians take the Alpha "course" is to strengthen their faith if they feel it is faltering.

[sweetsweatyfeet]

Interestingly the OT makes no mention of hell. I wonder why that is? It's not until gentle Jesus--meek and mild comes along that eternal torment of hell is introduced.

Such a tactic was created as a way to coerce belief. Nothing cripples the rational mind like fear. This is especially prevalent in the 20th century American fundamentalist approach to Christianity. I'd wager that a good many Christians believe (or fein believe) more out of a hell-fear than for any other reason.

[sweetsweatyfeet]

Another reason Alpha finds an assembly hall of mostly Christians is ... peer pressure. An Alpha session dominated with believers can have a much greater influence on question seekers and fence sitters (the ones Alpha seeks to convert).

I couldn't imagine Alpha being very effective if the audience were 90% atheists.

[squalllion1uk]

This HELL as such is being cut off from god by refusing jesus or repenting as jesus died for our sins so if we dont accept jesus's gift then we are judged and take the sentence.

[sweetsweatyfeet]

Jesus didn't die for anything because substitutional atonement makes no sense. This was the way people thought in primitive times (sacrifice to appease the angry gods) so it reflects this thinking. This is simply more proof the scriptures were the product of the mentalities who lived in these dark and ignorant times.

If Jesus existed, are you saying "god" wanted him to be crucified? Where does it say this in the bible?

If you or I witnessed such a thing we would have been duty bound to stop it.

[squalllion1uk]

Duty bound? Why if you dont believe and the man was saying your beliefs were incorrect even in this day and age it would cause a riot most likely and that man would then be prosecuted for causing such no? And you would want him to be.

The sacrifices was more due to pagan religion if im thinking rightly which jesus was not to chuffed about.

And yes jesus said that he was born to die for us so that we have the chance to redeem our selfs from our sins.

[squalllion1uk]

Just because it doesnt mean sense means its wrong?

A person thats been captive for a long time ends up thinking the captive is there savior and praises them ...that doesnt make sense , we can explain it but it doesnt make sense.

Love doesnt really make sense so its wrong?

[squalllion1uk]

just as a child steals from there mother and the mother is annoyed with the child does the child not seek to be forgiven? If the child keeps stealing and then starts cursing his mother will the mother not cast out her child?

[sweetsweatyfeet]

Does the mother punish her youngest son for the transgressions of her daughter?

[squalllion1uk]

I take it your refering to adam and eve?

If the son follows in those foot steps then so be it.

[sweetsweatyfeet]

No, not about Adam/Eve, I meant it as an analogy. "God" seems obsessed with punishment and is quite well appeased if an innocent receives the punishment... so long as punishment is given. So Jesus is punished for the sins of mankind (according to modern fundamentalist interpretation). And god is okay with this. Makes as much sense as a mother punishing one child for the acts of her other children. That is what i meant... and as an analogy to highlight why it makes no sense.

[squalllion1uk]

Hmm its not that people are punished for no reason, its judgement just as a father judges his son for his actions just as god does us is that so unfair? If you ask your father to forgive you he does. Why is that such a odd concept?

God had forsaken us before jesus because of our sins and being imperfect only a few knew of him and lived under him so with jesus he gave us a second chance. Jesus could have easily escaped the captors

[squalllion1uk]

but it was his destiny to die on the cross and take all the sin of all humanity and open the way back up to god for us.

[sweetsweatyfeet]

Jesus was not crucified by any "god" but only by his persecutors and accusers. If this was "gods" will then why don't you heap some praise to those who carried out this dastardly deed?... who after all was carrying out gods will. If it had not been for Jesus' persecutors then there would have been no glorious sacrifice. So you should give thanks and praises to Pontius Pilate and his lynch mob for carrying out this most noble act of "god".

[squalllion1uk]

You and i both know that (unless your inhuman) that the killing and torture of any person is far from noble. Jesus death wasnt glorious, the reason for his death was and that was justifcation of it.

In all honesty i believe just preaching the word is not really enough to convert people. its more a experince you have in life , feeling the connection with god or something along those lines. I dont like the way a lot of christians try force the word onto others, but the same goes for athiests.

[sweetsweatyfeet]

Please stop trying to rationalize nonsense. I think I made myself clear about why. Let me put it another way. If a father were to punish (by horrible torture) his innocent child for what his OTHER children did, you would consider him without question be a sick and twisted psychotic. Why then would you WORSHIP an "entity" for the exact same reason? Would an advanced being be appeased by punishing the innocent? Of course not--it's ludicrous. This nonsense was obviously made up.

[squalllion1uk]

Prove its nonsense? Im still waiting on a quote where it says or depicts horrible torture. Your missing out that his innocent child can stop the torture easily . You say it like it is unjustified?

Does your father not disipline you also because he loves you?

[godzilla0083]

I have taken the Alpha course but didn't feel challenge enough. So I'm taking the Cornerstone Course next because I heard it was much more advance than Alpha.

[Coryscott5]

"I think I sort of sensed the lord saying to me...."

I think.  Sort of.

Nutjob.

[wycliffe35]

In the Sixties we had good theological polemics with persons such as Cupitt, Kung, Furlong, Robinson, Hick....and in 2009 is this the best we can do? Alpha!

Come on thinking Christians lets start having a serious debate and not give all the stage to this evangelical nonsense!!

[quercous]

Have you done the Alpha course?

[wycliffe35]

Yes I have done the whole course - I genuinely worry about the quality of Alpha; I'm constantly being reminded that Alpha is for beginners not theologians - however so were many of the books written in the sixties liberal theology. This is not about living in the past, but about a genuine concern that we have gone backwards in christian thought and Alpha in contributing to an evangelical fundamentalism which worries me...

Best Wishes.

W.