datenwolf, to give you a small example of how you could have helped easily: as you painfully found out what ConsoleKit is and how it works (it sucks that you had to, no questions) , did you ever consider documenting it yourself and sending the developers a patch for improvement so the next person won't have the same problem?
I think you really have to re-adjust your understanding about what a community is.
@zonque The problem there is, that apparently ConsoleKit is broken by design. There's little you can fix, given the current design. Placing the tasks of ConsoleKit in systemd may tackle the data persistency problem, at the expense of bloating your init system.
Oh well. The guy considers himself in the position of blaming other people's work for effects he doesn't have a clue about, while at the same time, he seems entirely disconnected from the community.
Dude, all these layers you rant so much about have been added for a reason, to solve actual problems. Not because everyone but you is stupid and loves bloat.
But as Lennart said already, don't use them if you don't want to, every distribution gives you the freedom to do so.
"have been added for a reason, to solve actual problems. Not because everyone but you is stupid and loves bloat."
For me being also quite stupid, all those fixed problems make my life much more difficult. I learned how to use most of my linux a few years ago, now it all broke because you seemingly reinvent stuff every few days. Although I don't understand anything of what you're actually trying to do virtually every feature I used stopped working.
ConsoleKit ist eine Fehlkonstruktion, wie er sehr richtig argumentiert. States duerfen nicht im Prozess gespeichert werden, wenn der Prozess absterben kann. Eine Datei kann nicht von sich aus sterben. Die Wahrscheinlichkeit, dass ein Prozess stirbt ist viel groeszer. Nachfolgeprozesse muessen die selben Moeglichkeiten bekommen.
Fehler kann man nicht vermeiden, aber muss den Schaden einschraenken.
@deaccaed [ ] Du hast verstanden, dass das Problem tiefer liegt und zwar, dass im Linux-Kernel der Syscall revoke(int fd) fehlt.
pam_console, welches vom Redner so in den Himmel gelobt wird, kann es prinzipbedingt nicht besser machen. Wie Lennart bereits angekuendigt hat, wird es in naher Zukunft einen revoke-Syscall geben und das Problem dadurch geloest.
@genkiadrian revoke wurde von BSD eingeführt, damit ein getty sicherstellen kann, dass kein Trojanisches Pferd die Benutzereingaben abfängt. Ein Prozess dem FDs revoked wurden muss diese neu öffnen. ConsoleKit ist dagegen für Fast User Switching gedacht; dummerweise bedeutet das, dass wenn ConsoleKit mit revoke den Prozesses ihre FDs auf Geräte nimmt eine Menge kaputt gehen wird. Was man wirklich bräuchte wären virtualisierte Konsolen, console_groups, ähnlich den anderen Namespaces des Kernels.
Before you watch the video, just as an exercise and sort of appetizer: Try to understand what the mentioned programs do and how they interact with the other parts of the system, only by reading into the official documentation, howtos, their source code and how they behave on your own system.
Figuring out GDM, Phonon, GStreamer, PulseAudio, ConsoleKit, PolicyKit and D-Bus before watching this video makes you appreciate this video even more.
@frother Why? Because he writes sh*tload of good code and defends it from being bashed without any good point? Things like pulseaudio and dbus form the basis of a _modern_ Linux desktop. If you don't want to use that, go and stick to *BSD or use Gentoo. But don't tell other people who really contribute alot of code what they're doing wrong. I want to see any of the contributions of Wolfgang to the FOSS community. According to Ohloh he hasn't contributed anything so far (search for datenwolf).
Well he could reasonably expect that if he's being given an hour to speak he'll be allowed to speak. It's really a shame that he didn't get to elaborate on being locked into gdm/dbus/policykit/etc because I think he had a good point. It's concerning when software you like moves in a dangerous direction, and "it's free, get over it" is an outrageous objection. Even if you want to, you can't use an old working version, like the disaster that is the GDM regressions.
that guy reminds me of fenriz of darkthrone
steelwizard 4 months ago
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blaxxtarz 5 months ago
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kki 9 months ago
Comment removed
kki 9 months ago
@man187ac you forgot 40:30 "just say yes", "no, no" LOL
kki 9 months ago
datenwolf, to give you a small example of how you could have helped easily: as you painfully found out what ConsoleKit is and how it works (it sucks that you had to, no questions) , did you ever consider documenting it yourself and sending the developers a patch for improvement so the next person won't have the same problem?
I think you really have to re-adjust your understanding about what a community is.
zonque 1 year ago
@zonque The problem there is, that apparently ConsoleKit is broken by design. There's little you can fix, given the current design. Placing the tasks of ConsoleKit in systemd may tackle the data persistency problem, at the expense of bloating your init system.
hexarith 11 months ago
Oh well. The guy considers himself in the position of blaming other people's work for effects he doesn't have a clue about, while at the same time, he seems entirely disconnected from the community.
Dude, all these layers you rant so much about have been added for a reason, to solve actual problems. Not because everyone but you is stupid and loves bloat.
But as Lennart said already, don't use them if you don't want to, every distribution gives you the freedom to do so.
zonque 1 year ago 6
@zonque
"have been added for a reason, to solve actual problems. Not because everyone but you is stupid and loves bloat."
For me being also quite stupid, all those fixed problems make my life much more difficult. I learned how to use most of my linux a few years ago, now it all broke because you seemingly reinvent stuff every few days. Although I don't understand anything of what you're actually trying to do virtually every feature I used stopped working.
shittubes 6 days ago
EPIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIC!
RuddODragonFear 1 year ago
i love the way he says 'accessibilty'....
Schimaro001 1 year ago
ConsoleKit ist eine Fehlkonstruktion, wie er sehr richtig argumentiert. States duerfen nicht im Prozess gespeichert werden, wenn der Prozess absterben kann. Eine Datei kann nicht von sich aus sterben. Die Wahrscheinlichkeit, dass ein Prozess stirbt ist viel groeszer. Nachfolgeprozesse muessen die selben Moeglichkeiten bekommen.
Fehler kann man nicht vermeiden, aber muss den Schaden einschraenken.
deaccaed 1 year ago
@deaccaed [ ] Du hast verstanden, dass das Problem tiefer liegt und zwar, dass im Linux-Kernel der Syscall revoke(int fd) fehlt.
pam_console, welches vom Redner so in den Himmel gelobt wird, kann es prinzipbedingt nicht besser machen. Wie Lennart bereits angekuendigt hat, wird es in naher Zukunft einen revoke-Syscall geben und das Problem dadurch geloest.
genkiadrian 1 year ago
@genkiadrian revoke wurde von BSD eingeführt, damit ein getty sicherstellen kann, dass kein Trojanisches Pferd die Benutzereingaben abfängt. Ein Prozess dem FDs revoked wurden muss diese neu öffnen. ConsoleKit ist dagegen für Fast User Switching gedacht; dummerweise bedeutet das, dass wenn ConsoleKit mit revoke den Prozesses ihre FDs auf Geräte nimmt eine Menge kaputt gehen wird. Was man wirklich bräuchte wären virtualisierte Konsolen, console_groups, ähnlich den anderen Namespaces des Kernels.
hexarith 11 months ago
I love Lennart :-)
arclnx 1 year ago 7
Mein Name ist übrigens "Lennnart", nicht "Lennard".
MrMezcalero 1 year ago 3
@MrMezcalero Habe es korrigiert.
oger12 1 year ago
@MrMezcalero hey (: war damals in schweden (studium) & hab den live stream gesehen... und tränen gelacht :D - thx - grüße aus Ö
itsmeafreak 11 months ago
Before you watch the video, just as an exercise and sort of appetizer: Try to understand what the mentioned programs do and how they interact with the other parts of the system, only by reading into the official documentation, howtos, their source code and how they behave on your own system.
Figuring out GDM, Phonon, GStreamer, PulseAudio, ConsoleKit, PolicyKit and D-Bus before watching this video makes you appreciate this video even more.
hexarith 1 year ago
They should have had a beer together before the talk and fixed some of the obvious errors. Both have valid points.
versusray 1 year ago
most entertaining ccc talk this year, I've seen so far
TMM65 1 year ago
Lennard is kind of an asshole ._.
frother 1 year ago 3
@frother Why? Because he writes sh*tload of good code and defends it from being bashed without any good point? Things like pulseaudio and dbus form the basis of a _modern_ Linux desktop. If you don't want to use that, go and stick to *BSD or use Gentoo. But don't tell other people who really contribute alot of code what they're doing wrong. I want to see any of the contributions of Wolfgang to the FOSS community. According to Ohloh he hasn't contributed anything so far (search for datenwolf).
genkiadrian 1 year ago 4
Did he really thought noone of the developers would be there? I love the ranting :D
PurplesHead 1 year ago
@PurplesHead
Well he could reasonably expect that if he's being given an hour to speak he'll be allowed to speak. It's really a shame that he didn't get to elaborate on being locked into gdm/dbus/policykit/etc because I think he had a good point. It's concerning when software you like moves in a dangerous direction, and "it's free, get over it" is an outrageous objection. Even if you want to, you can't use an old working version, like the disaster that is the GDM regressions.
frother 1 year ago 13