I think all gay people should become Episcopalians instead of going where they're not welcome. Source: I'm gay. My Episcopal church says not only that gay is ok but also it's not a sin and gay marriage is healthy and so does the head of our church. It's like being a gay republican or a black KKK member to be in any denomination other than the Episcopal church.
Cool--glad to hear you're in seminary. I just graduated from seminary myself.
I couldn't really disagree more with what you've written, and frankly, I'm tired of having a debate about scriptural interpretation that to my mind has already been settled. I'm very comfortable with my interpretation of Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, etc. and likely won't be persuaded by the same, tired old arguments. But let's continue to pray for one another. Peace.
The problem is it has been settled, but the majority is not in agreement with the ELCA and other liberal groups. Like I said, you pretty much have to ignore every basic rule of Hermeneutics to arrive at that conclusion, and take multiple very clear texts to the wrong conclusions.
I unlike some others do not hate homosexuals, I view it as any of the other sexual sins the Bible lists, not trying to sound nonchalant about it.
Its not that my arguments are tired or old, rather that they are true and obvious. From the arguments I've read from the other camp, they hold a very dangerous view of Scriptures that basically remove all authority for the sake of "love".
Being a sinner, which you and I both are, is one thing. But to deliberately rationalize sin away in a manner completely contrary to biblical teaching just to justify our sin is unchristian and should challenge you.
@javenswanson How can there be peace when you are at war with the same scripture interpreted the same worldwide?
How is your interpretation after two millenia of salvation any different than ours?
Why even bother with seminary if your doctrine is of the devil, to steal a paycheck off the church designated for clergy who are in the business of salvation and evangelism?
How is your message any different than that of any gay bar the world over? That's very fleshly of you!
The main way I hear it explained away is that since God is love, and his love covers all, that in Christ we have freedoms including homosexuality.
I think if one takes a non-biased view point, with a proper balanced hermeneutic, its impossible to come to any other conclusion than a literal direct application to the many texts on the issue.
Its extremely unlikely I will change your viewpoint on my own, and vice versa. It comes down to a hermeneutic. Is the Bible God's Word? Can it be trusted in every area? Can we take it for what it says? or were the authors blinded by their customs. i would argue the Bible is timeless and since its authorship is both human and divine one must interpret it with this in mind. This becomes one of the many issues/problems when one denies the authority of Scriptures. They become rationalist.
If you're really interested in thinking critically about the ways scripture has been used to condemn homosexuality and/or homosexuals, you might consider picking up any number of books on the topic published in the last 30 years. Perhaps you could start with Jack Rogers' "Jesus, The Bible, and Homosexuality."
One of the big problems is that in order to make scripture texts say homosexuality is acceptable, is you have to completely ignore just about every rule of hermeneutics to do it. Sodom and Gomorrah is taken to be a problem of hospitality, Romans 1 and the texts specifically stating liars,whoremongers (which often Christians ignore sadly), adulterers, and the list goes on, will all be condemned to hell.
Should we be happy for Javen that his family's acceptance of his abomination towards God makes him more comfortable for the short term?
Javen "knows" the Word, claiming to have had training. I doubt the knowledge made any leeway past his thick skull.
PoofDuddy 2 days ago
I think all gay people should become Episcopalians instead of going where they're not welcome. Source: I'm gay. My Episcopal church says not only that gay is ok but also it's not a sin and gay marriage is healthy and so does the head of our church. It's like being a gay republican or a black KKK member to be in any denomination other than the Episcopal church.
jwboot3 6 months ago
Javen, the story of your family's love is very touching. That is the way churches should be.
garysdeskcom 7 months ago
God is a just God. He will justly deal with your conscious sinfulness as long as you do not repent of it.
sethbauer1 2 years ago
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@sethbauer1 there is no god.
Televersity 1 year ago
Cool--glad to hear you're in seminary. I just graduated from seminary myself.
I couldn't really disagree more with what you've written, and frankly, I'm tired of having a debate about scriptural interpretation that to my mind has already been settled. I'm very comfortable with my interpretation of Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, etc. and likely won't be persuaded by the same, tired old arguments. But let's continue to pray for one another. Peace.
javenswanson 2 years ago 2
The problem is it has been settled, but the majority is not in agreement with the ELCA and other liberal groups. Like I said, you pretty much have to ignore every basic rule of Hermeneutics to arrive at that conclusion, and take multiple very clear texts to the wrong conclusions.
I unlike some others do not hate homosexuals, I view it as any of the other sexual sins the Bible lists, not trying to sound nonchalant about it.
Zacharybinx34 2 years ago
Its not that my arguments are tired or old, rather that they are true and obvious. From the arguments I've read from the other camp, they hold a very dangerous view of Scriptures that basically remove all authority for the sake of "love".
Being a sinner, which you and I both are, is one thing. But to deliberately rationalize sin away in a manner completely contrary to biblical teaching just to justify our sin is unchristian and should challenge you.
Zacharybinx34 2 years ago
@javenswanson How can there be peace when you are at war with the same scripture interpreted the same worldwide?
How is your interpretation after two millenia of salvation any different than ours?
Why even bother with seminary if your doctrine is of the devil, to steal a paycheck off the church designated for clergy who are in the business of salvation and evangelism?
How is your message any different than that of any gay bar the world over? That's very fleshly of you!
PoofDuddy 2 days ago
The main way I hear it explained away is that since God is love, and his love covers all, that in Christ we have freedoms including homosexuality.
I think if one takes a non-biased view point, with a proper balanced hermeneutic, its impossible to come to any other conclusion than a literal direct application to the many texts on the issue.
Zacharybinx34 2 years ago
Its extremely unlikely I will change your viewpoint on my own, and vice versa. It comes down to a hermeneutic. Is the Bible God's Word? Can it be trusted in every area? Can we take it for what it says? or were the authors blinded by their customs. i would argue the Bible is timeless and since its authorship is both human and divine one must interpret it with this in mind. This becomes one of the many issues/problems when one denies the authority of Scriptures. They become rationalist.
Zacharybinx34 2 years ago
Human depravity shows us that we cannot depend on our own rational. Anyways, that's all for now.
Did you attend the PR 6 year reunion? Becky and I did not, maybe the 10 year.
Zacharybinx34 2 years ago
Hey Javen,
I'm concerned about the justification of this thinking with Romans 1 and the many other passages.
Zacharybinx34 2 years ago
Hi Zachary,
If you're really interested in thinking critically about the ways scripture has been used to condemn homosexuality and/or homosexuals, you might consider picking up any number of books on the topic published in the last 30 years. Perhaps you could start with Jack Rogers' "Jesus, The Bible, and Homosexuality."
Peace,
Javen
javenswanson 2 years ago
Hey Javen, I'm currently in seminary.
One of the big problems is that in order to make scripture texts say homosexuality is acceptable, is you have to completely ignore just about every rule of hermeneutics to do it. Sodom and Gomorrah is taken to be a problem of hospitality, Romans 1 and the texts specifically stating liars,whoremongers (which often Christians ignore sadly), adulterers, and the list goes on, will all be condemned to hell.
Zacharybinx34 2 years ago
forgot to include all sexual sins, which homosexuality is listed, many times.
Zacharybinx34 2 years ago